Alberta government thread

[MilEME09]

And yet this is the same group (AIMCo) that is supposed to manage the Alberta Pension if they withdrew from the CPP.

And teachers are still pissed off about their independent pension being forced under AIMCo years ago

Frankly I look at the CPP board as a positive model and often use the AIMCo incompetence as a rebuttal to some "separatists" to question if they truly understand what they are signing up for..

Agreed, AIMCo can't manage money yet the government wants us to believe they can handle a pension plan? no such thing as a fiscal conservative in AB any more

 

[Altair]

we're talking about puberty blockers not surgery.

These get lumped together. It's a common tactic to make every treatment seem extreme and thus unreasonable.

multiple studies have shown their effectiveness

Science is taking a backseat to politics.

good thing we're not, we're giving them medical treatment.

I also wonder how we develop treatments to childhood ailments if medication cannot be used on children.

Answer, clinical trials.

But again, Science is taking a backseat to politics

yes, like banning medical treatment for children.

Cruelty is a feature, not a bug.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Again, the issue I have is the talking out of both sides of their mouth.

Ban those born as male from female sports if they have undergone puberty.

Ban puberty blockers from those born as male, forcing them to go through puberty.

If anyone can tell me how a trans kid can be a female rugby player at 18 with this system in place I will gladly stand down and say, hey, ya, that makes sense.

Currently it doesn't.

And yes, sports is just one aspect of this, but it effects more than that. Future relationships, self worth, body image a lot is on the line for those with genuine gender disphoria. Heavy handed carpet bans are not useful in that sense.

Yes sports is just one aspect.

Currently Transwomen dominate the sports they compete in.

It's resulted in biological women not only being pushed out of the competition but their ability to even be critical of the situation is taken away lest they are labeled transphobic and attacked for it.

Your solution is to prescribe puberty blockers to remove benefits of puberty. At a quick glance it looks like blocking puberty does remove a lot of the benefits puberty gives males in sports.

What you're ignoring is Canada being an outlier in how unrestricted we treat puberty blocking compared to a half dozen similar progressive countries. A key issue being how restricted the treatment is and being intimately followed by specialists opposed to GP's.

Maybe the best solution is for Canada to adopt a similarly restrictive, centralized, and specialized approach to puberty blockers for children.

 

[Jarnhamar]

A trans only league wouldn't work.

Male league
Female league
Transmale league
Transfemale league

 

[Brad Sallows]

Its already clear that Alberta and others don't give a damn about the very children they say they are trying to protect and the best thing any person with a trans child should do is move to one of the other provinces that don't pass hate based legislation.

Not much more to add.

In which a person is reduced to blackguarding motives.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Answer, clinical trials.

These aren't clinical trials. We aren't able to do prior experiments treating adults. It's not a fatal disease. It's not an abnormal childhood physical condition that can be treated by surgery without massive potential complications. So far, I'm unaware of any study which attempts to compare the number of treated kids who emerge as satisfied adults, to the number of kids who didn't get treatment and emerged as satisfied adults (hetero, gay, or otherwise) and the number who were treated and regret it.

Proponents are hoping to shotgun a bunch of kids through treatments for 3 or 4 decades and measure the long-term effects on the other side, hoping - hoping - that there will be no measurable ill effects. Insane.

 

[Altair]

Yes sports is just one aspect.

Currently Transwomen dominate the sports they compete in.

It's resulted in biological women not only being pushed out of the competition but their ability to even be critical of the situation is taken away lest they are labeled transphobic and attacked for it.

Your solution is to prescribe puberty blockers to remove benefits of puberty. At a quick glance it looks like blocking puberty does remove a lot of the benefits puberty gives males in sports.

What you're ignoring is Canada being an outlier in how unrestricted we treat puberty blocking compared to a half dozen similar progressive countries. A key issue being how restricted the treatment is and being intimately followed by specialists opposed to GP's.

Maybe the best solution is for Canada to adopt a similarly restrictive, centralized, and specialized approach to puberty blockers for children.

And in 2005, Canada was the 4th country on earth, EARTH, to have gay marriage.

But you're right, maybe being a outlier in how unrestricted we treated homosexuality compared to half a dozen similiar progressive countries. A key issue being how it should be up to pastors to marry people.

Maybe the best approach was for Canada to adopt a similiarly restrictive, centralized approach to gay marriage.

Wow, that sounds....

 

[OldSolduer]

In which a person is reduced to blackguarding motives.

Years ago we had a young person suicide because his parents were intent on raising him as a girl. The amount of trauma he went through was insane.
Yet we - Canada - think we can listen to a 12 year old and decide they need puberty blockers.

They - the Trans people- have to wait til they are the age of majority.
My opinion

 

[QV]

And in 2005, Canada was the 4th country on earth, EARTH, to have gay marriage.

But you're right, maybe being a outlier in how unrestricted we treated homosexuality compared to half a dozen similiar progressive countries. A key issue being how it should be up to pastors to marry people.

Maybe the best approach was for Canada to adopt a similiarly restrictive, centralized approach to gay marriage.

Wow, that sounds....

Wildly irrelevant comparison.

You're comparing consenting adult behavior to adults carrying out significant procedures on children based on the thoughts and feelings of 7 year olds.

I think everyone present in this discussion believes consenting adults can mess with their hormones and body parts at will.

 

[Altair]

Years ago we had a young person suicide because his parents were intent on raising him as a girl. The amount of trauma he went through was insane.
Yet we - Canada - think we can listen to a 12 year old and decide they need puberty blockers.

They - the Trans people- have to wait til they are the age of majority.
My opinion

No worries. Many will kill themselves before they reach the age of majority.

https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2024/09/25/nx-s1-5127347/more-trans-teens-attempted-suicide-after-states-passed-anti-trans-laws-a-study-shows

States that passed anti-transgender laws aimed at minors saw suicide attempts by transgender and gender nonconforming teenagers increase by as much as 72% in the following years, a new study by The Trevor Project says.

The peer-reviewed study, published published Thursday in the journal Nature Human Behavior, looked at survey data from young people in 19 states, comparing rates of suicide attempts before and after bans passed.

Maybe that's the goal.

Anything that has a increase of 72 percent has to be purposeful.

 

[Altair]

Wildly irrelevant comparison.

Why? Were we not the outlier? Or does being the outlier not matter in this case?

Pick a lane.

 

[Jarnhamar]

And in 2005, Canada was the 4th country on earth, EARTH, to have gay marriage.

But you're right, maybe being a outlier in how unrestricted we treated homosexuality compared to half a dozen similiar progressive countries. A key issue being how it should be up to pastors to marry people.

Maybe the best approach was for Canada to adopt a similiarly restrictive, centralized approach to gay marriage.

Wow, that sounds....

Just because Canada was the 4th country to legalize gay marriage 20 years ago doesn't mean we're automatically right about everything.

Comparison between puberty blockers and same sex marriage does not really apply here. Marriage rights are a civil liberties question. Puberty blockers are a clinical intervention with medical risks, long-term physiological implications, and substantial uncertainty in the evidence base for adolescent use.

What Sweden, Finland, the UK and otherw have done is not about restricting 2SLGBTQIAA+ rights.

They're using:
-specialized multidisciplinary teams,
-standardized assessment protocols, and
-pediatric endocrine experts.

They use specialists who oversee decisions that were previously left to widely varying practices among general practitioners.

Canada adopting a more centralized, specialist driven approach would be about clinical safety, consistent standards, and proper medical oversight, mirroring what other "progressive" and high performing health systems have already moved toward.

Framing disagreement as wanting to harm trans youth shuts down any meaningful dialogue. It shifts the focus away from policy, data, and practical concerns into a moral accusation where one side is presumed guilty.

 

[Brad Sallows]

No worries. Many will kill themselves before they reach the age of majority.

Translation: 72% was the highest number they could find/cook. Note well that it's not claimed as "mean" or "median".

"Many" is what number, exactly?

"Maybe that's the goal". More blackguarding. Those guys are evil; my people are honourable.

All of that is mere propaganda.

Correlation isn't necessarily causation. (Everyone else uses it; now it's my turn.)

Some finite number of people will kill themselves if they don't get what they want. Some finite number will kill themselves if it turns out it isn't really what they wanted. Some will kill themselves for unrelated reasons. There is no getting away from that.

"Anti-trans laws" is in some respects just another word for "pro-child laws". Undoubtedly there are some illiberal anti-trans laws in some places. But for those who object to "pro-choice" being framed as "pro-abortion", it should be easy to see the mistake in trying to colour motives.

People who are for and against different uses of the NWC effectively occupy no worthwhile position on the NWC. Those who object to the NWC should work on getting it removed.

 

[Altair]

Just because Canada was the 4th country to legalize gay marriage 20 years ago doesn't mean we're automatically right about everything.

No. It means being an outlier doesn't automatically mean we are wrong. Many, many countries have been outliers.

1893 New Zealand, women could vote. Massive outlier. Should they have changed their policy because of being an outlier? No.

I view you as a reasonable intelligent individual. I'm disappointed you would use this line of reasoning.

Comparison between puberty blockers and same sex marriage does not really apply here. Marriage rights are a civil liberties question. Puberty blockers are a clinical intervention with medical risks, long-term physiological implications, and substantial uncertainty in the evidence base for adolescent use.

Yet puberty blockers are being used in cases other than gender disphoria.

So, is it the medication?

This is again, being lazer focused on trans individuals, and a buffet of reasons are being trotted out to justify it as anything other than hate legislation. I'm just calling a spade a spade

What Sweden, Finland, the UK and otherw have done is not about restricting 2SLGBTQIAA+ rights, it is about tightening clinical aspects.

They're using:
-specialized multidisciplinary teams,
-standardized assessment protocols, and
-pediatric endocrine experts.

They use specialists who oversee decisions that were previously left to widely varying practices among general practitioners.

If these didn't result in a lot of individuals losing access to these treatments I would be inclined to believe it.

Better oversight while allowing the same amount of access, sure, wonderful. Increased scrutiny with the result of denying individuals access? I see it for what it is.

Canada adopting a more centralized, specialist driven approach would be about clinical safety, consistent standards, and proper medical oversight, mirroring what other "progressive" and high performing health systems have already moved toward.

This is a solution searching for a problem.

Framing disagreement is as wanting to harm trans youth shuts down any meaningful dialogue and shifts the focus away from policy, data, and practical concerns into a moral accusation where one side is presumed guilty.

If people wanted to actually bring science and data to the table I would respond in kind.

Instead we get a lot of

"I feel"

"I think"

"I believe"

"It's obvious"

"In my opinion"

"Just my two cents"

We as a society, are electing people who toss data in the trash, go off of feels and make legislation off of what they believe versus what the data says.

I would challenge anyone to look a trans kid in the face and tell them I'm perfectly comfortable with them being at increased risk of suicide because data be damned, I feel like puberty blockers fucks kids up.

Because that's what these conversations are. Ignoring the individuals for some overarching, over reaching, narrative. And maybe my work with these communities and at risk youth has lead to me being incredibly pissed off that so many can be so dismissive to the challenges faced by these individuals that I do turn things into a moral accusations. But I think it's also equally likely that people view the trans community, trans individuals as a monolithic and doesn't take into account how these laws hurt individuals, hurts families, and yes, ends up with dead kids.

So excuse me if I find that abhorrent.

 

[QV]

Some folks find it abhorrent to make significant medical interventions based on the thoughts of a pre pubescent child.

 

[Altair]

Some folks find it abhorrent to make significant medical interventions based on the thoughts of a pre pubescent child.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

Learn about gender dysphoria, including symptoms, risk factors, treatment options and answers to common questions.

www.psychiatry.org

The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in adolescents and adults as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and their assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least two of the following:

• A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
• A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
• A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
• A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

In order to meet criteria for the diagnosis, the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in children as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be the first criterion):

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

As with the diagnostic criteria for adolescents and adults, the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

here, educate yourself about gender dysphoria.

 

[MrWhyt]

Some folks find it abhorrent to make significant medical interventions based on the thoughts of a pre pubescent child.

That why you get doctors and parents involved in the decision, they aren't picking up puberty blockers in the corner store next to the candy.

 

[QV]

Pre-pubescent children are very impressionable. Ideologically driven adults can take advantage of that. Here is one example:

FIRST READING: B.C.'s public school teachers told to 'queer' outdoor education

Teachers told to instruct children as young as four that 'the universality of heterosexuality in nature' is a colonial myth

nationalpost.com

Some snips:

B.C.’s public school teachers are being encouraged by their union to bring gay, trans and even drag queen themes to outdoor education, as part of their larger mission of “queering their pedagogy.”

When taking children outdoors to learn about nature, teachers are encouraged to “consider the harm of essentializing and naturalizing heteronormativity.”

As an example, they might teach about animal family structures in such a way that they “silence queer narratives and organization.”
Rather, the outdoors should be a place where children are taught to abandon “imposed categories” such as “male/female” and “right/wrong.”

The curriculum sets no lower age limit on when nature should be used as means towards “intentionally centering queer identities,” and outdoor “queerness” lessons are encouraged to begin as early as kindergarten.

“Colonization has offered a pseudo-science narrative of binary gender, as exemplified by the saying ‘birds and bees’ to analogize gender and assigned sex at birth and assumptions of sexual orientation,” reads the Queering Outdoor Education curriculum guide.

Appropriate?

 

[Quirky]

Ideologically driven adults can take advantage of that.

Some of whom are Doctors and Parents.

 

[Altair]

Pre-pubescent children are very impressionable. Ideologically driven adults can take advantage of that. Here is one example:

FIRST READING: B.C.'s public school teachers told to 'queer' outdoor education

Teachers told to instruct children as young as four that 'the universality of heterosexuality in nature' is a colonial myth

nationalpost.com

Some snips:

B.C.’s public school teachers are being encouraged by their union to bring gay, trans and even drag queen themes to outdoor education, as part of their larger mission of “queering their pedagogy.”

When taking children outdoors to learn about nature, teachers are encouraged to “consider the harm of essentializing and naturalizing heteronormativity.”

As an example, they might teach about animal family structures in such a way that they “silence queer narratives and organization.”
Rather, the outdoors should be a place where children are taught to abandon “imposed categories” such as “male/female” and “right/wrong.”

The curriculum sets no lower age limit on when nature should be used as means towards “intentionally centering queer identities,” and outdoor “queerness” lessons are encouraged to begin as early as kindergarten.

“Colonization has offered a pseudo-science narrative of binary gender, as exemplified by the saying ‘birds and bees’ to analogize gender and assigned sex at birth and assumptions of sexual orientation,” reads the Queering Outdoor Education curriculum guide.

Appropriate?

So yes or no.

Is gender dysphoria a real condition in pre pubescent children?