Replacing the Subs

[Colin Parkinson]

Also TKMS is upping their "Canadian component game"

TKMS and Marmen sign strategic Teaming Agreement to support production of 212CD submarine segments in Canada

Press Release

noahscornerofrandomstuff.substack.com

 

[Rainbow1910]

Also TKMS is upping their "Canadian component game"

TKMS and Marmen sign strategic Teaming Agreement to support production of 212CD submarine segments in Canada

Press Release

noahscornerofrandomstuff.substack.com

While it definitely is a "feel good" moment for Canadians and will definitely make some politicians happy, I have concerns about the ability of Canadian companies to meet the incredibly high bar required for producing sections of basically one of the worlds most advanced non-nuclear submarines. There is very miniscule margin for error here, with potentially disastrous consequences and little room to learn.

 

[Czech_pivo]

While it definitely is a "feel good" moment for Canadians and will definitely make some politicians happy, I have concerns about the ability of Canadian companies to meet the incredibly high bar required for producing sections of basically one of the worlds most advanced non-nuclear submarines. There is very miniscule margin for error here, with potentially disastrous consequences and little room to learn.

Any CDN manufacturing company that produces for MDA should be seriously looking at gaining some of the sub contracts that might come available. Those are the companies that understand the design/quality levels that you are referring to.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Any CDN manufacturing company that produces for MDA should be seriously looking at gaining some of the sub contracts that might come available. Those are the companies that understand the design/quality levels that you are referring to.

You will have to excuse my skepticism given the widespread incompetence within the Canadian shipbuilding industry, that companies won't totally bungle this sort of contract given how short of a metaphorical runway exists for them.

 

[Czech_pivo]

You will have to excuse my skepticism given the widespread incompetence within the Canadian shipbuilding industry, that companies won't totally bungle this sort of contract given how short of a metaphorical runway exists for them.

MDA is MDA Space, the company that produces equipment for NASA, the Canadian Space Agency, builds satellites, etc. I don't really see them or the companies that build for them, dropping the ball on something if they chose to enter the contract world in teaming up with Hanwha or TKMS to help build our subs.

 

[Rainbow1910]

MDA is MDA Space, the company that produces equipment for NASA, the Canadian Space Agency, builds satellites, etc. I don't really see them or the companies that build for them, dropping the ball on something if they chose to enter the contract world in teaming up with Hanwha or TKMS to help build our subs.

And submarines are some of the most complex pieces of equipment ever produced by mankind even compared to what you mention, I'll withhold my confidence until they can prove in this context able.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

While it definitely is a "feel good" moment for Canadians and will definitely make some politicians happy, I have concerns about the ability of Canadian companies to meet the incredibly high bar required for producing sections of basically one of the worlds most advanced non-nuclear submarines. There is very miniscule margin for error here, with potentially disastrous consequences and little room to learn.

At the end of the article Noah has some comments including this snippet, "This choice is actually something that had been pushed by the Federal government. I believe it was either Champagne or Joly who pushed for, at least, module production to take place in Canada. Marmen was one of the companies they were specifically pushing."

 

[Czech_pivo]

At the end of the article Noah has some comments including this snippet, "This choice is actually something that had been pushed by the Federal government. I believe it was either Champagne or Joly who pushed for, at least, module production to take place in Canada. Marmen was one of the companies they were specifically pushing."

From their website

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Of course if a company is making a specialized dishwasher for the subs, it is making "Submarine components"

In the early 2000's Canadian shipbuilding companies were making components for hydro dams as they were the only ones in country with the abilty to produce custom shaped large diameter steel piping that could withstand the wear and tear from the water and grit.

It was not so long ago that all 6 of Germany's subs were tied to the wall due to a high failure rate of parts and subsequent shortage of those parts. We are highly acquainted with our own shipyard failures, but both South Korea and Germany have produce ships that were returned by their customers to fix significant problems.

 

[Czech_pivo]

sOf course if a company is making a specialized dishwasher for the subs, it is making "Submarine components"

In the early 2000's Canadian shipbuilding companies were making components for hydro dams as they were the only ones in country with the abilty to produce custom shaped large diameter steel piping that could withstand the wear and tear from the water and grit.

It was not so long ago that all 6 of Germany's subs were tied to the wall due to a high failure rate of parts and subsequent shortage of those parts. We are highly acquainted with our own shipyard failures, but both South Korea and Germany have produce ships that were returned by their customers to fix significant problems.

Why the rock throwing people?

We don't know what 'sub components' they have been producing for the US Navy since 2009, but they've been doing it for 15yrs now so the USN must be happy with them.

I'm feeling a bit like people are assuming that its not possible for any Canadian company to currently produce or in the future produce, anything that may go into a submarine. Sounds a bit close minded.

If a company produces sub-par parts or product, who really is to blame? The customer for not being a part of the QC from the very beginning of the process? The legal team that failed to adequately review the contract to ensure that QC was properly documented, laid out and had serious repercussions if not followed? The build team for not asserting their power/voice into the delivery process as it was unfolding in real time in front of them? The mgmt team that didn't listen/understand/follow the opinions/suggestions of the delivery team as they were being told?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am not going to go into "who's to blame" (especially not the lawyers, who are absolute, complete ignoramuses where any science or engineering is concerned, and simply follow what they are told to put in by the subject matter "alleged" experts), but ... while we do not have any yard in Canada that has the expertise to build submarines, it doesn't mean that we have no industries capable of building components for submarines. A good deal of those components are not rocket science and any yard (be it TKMS or Hanwa) who gets the submarine contracts will be more than capable enough to judge which Canadian company is capable of producing what component, and to set the proper Quality Control on such production.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A interesting write-up on speciality steel production in Canada, by Noah.

Correcting myself from Yesterday: TKMS, Marmen, and Canadian production of 1.3964 Grade steel.

Every so often I make a mistake that ends up surprising me to a healthy degree.

noahscornerofrandomstuff.substack.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

HMCS Corner Brook back from a Northern Pacific and Western Arctic region deployment

 

[Nvlgzr]

HMCS Corner Brook back from a Northern Pacific and Western Arctic region deployment

Capt Kooiman, “The boat will be going into a short work period to repair some defects and to modernize some equipment and then once she’s done that short work period she’ll be going out again.” Yeesh! Double speak for, we didn’t do a good job in the last 14 years so we’ll waste 10 more years on her to get 1 more short patrol before decommissioning.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

No its not. Short work periods happen for every single ship/submarine in the fleet after any extended deployments (i.e. more than a couple of months). That's the way ships/submarines work. And those short work periods do not last very long (two or three weeks, usually. Unless a specific part is back order and delay things).

 

[Czech_pivo]

No its not. Short work periods happen for every single ship/submarine in the fleet after any extended deployments (i.e. more than a couple of months). That's the way ships/submarines work. And those short work periods do not last very long (two or three weeks, usually. Unless a specific part is back order and delay things).

I’m just happy to see them out there staying sharp and gaining more experience.
Bravo Zulu to them.

 

[Underway]

No its not. Short work periods happen for every single ship/submarine in the fleet after any extended deployments (i.e. more than a couple of months). That's the way ships/submarines work. And those short work periods do not last very long (two or three weeks, usually. Unless a specific part is back order and delay things).

Exactly. Short work periods are scheduled in 1-2 years in advance. They fix things that broke on the last sail, wash and clean of machinery spaces and tanks, do the 6 monthly and yearly maintenance on equipment (like engines) or do things like inspections of naval ordinance on guns after they shoot a lot of rounds (required to ensure gun health, safety and long life).

And you can use that opportunity to do upgrades to software and firmware for you systems as well. A short work period is basically when you get your snow tires on and have the car given a once over, replace all the fluids and consumables (brakes, rotors, filters etc...) and fix that weird noise.

 

[childs56]

While it definitely is a "feel good" moment for Canadians and will definitely make some politicians happy, I have concerns about the ability of Canadian companies to meet the incredibly high bar required for producing sections of basically one of the worlds most advanced non-nuclear submarines. There is very miniscule margin for error here, with potentially disastrous consequences and little room to learn.

I hope you are not part of influencing any project currently or in the future. We have some very good companies with very experienced people in many aspects that could build subs. Especially if given pointers and lessons learned by the Main Contractor.
The skills are there, selling our work force short is one thing our Government is great at especially DND.

As for our Ship yard woes, well that's what happens when you don't hold the primary responsible for their actions or lack of action.

 

[Pelorus]

I hope you are not part of influencing any project currently or in the future.

Isn't that a pretty aggressive stance to take against @Rainbow1910? I don't know their exact background, but it seems like they are at the very least a retired RCN member, and have direct experience with naval and shipborne operations?

Whereas you don't, like at all? Aren't you one of those perennial army.ca posters with near-exclusive non-CAF experience who seems to think that your random anecdotes are equivalent to a bunch of us numpties who worked on the coal face for decades?

 

[childs56]

Isn't that a pretty aggressive stance to take against @Rainbow1910? I don't know their exact background, but it seems like they are at the very least a retired RCN member, and have direct experience with naval and shipborne operations? Whereas you don't, like at all? Aren't you one of those perennial army.ca posters with near-exclusive non-CAF experience who seems to think that your random anecdotes are equivalent to a bunch of us numpties who worked on the coal face for decades?

Ahh I guess your right, I might have to throw the towel in over a couple poorly.placed insults.
One of largest issues we have is our decision makers being limited in what they know due to expierance they have. If all you have ever known is one thing, you were never exposed to other things. You will never know those other things existed. Even though they do.
Your assumptions are amazingly incorrect. I have a bit of expierance both wearing the uniform and also working alongside those who do.
like All the others who think Canada doesnt have an expieranced enough work force to build high quality pressure vessels and such are also incorrect.
I guess when one lives in one dimension of a industry they fail to see their own limits and such make assumptions about actual skills and capabilities outside of that one dimension. When one opens theirs horizon to see what is actually available in Canada it is actually is very interesting.
Canada is not incapable of building subs, tanks, large caliber barrels, modern fighter jets etc. We just dont because of limitations imposed by those in one dimension.

Hopefully in the next year or two we start seeing multiple dimensions being accessed by our Government for expanding our already highly skilled workforce into other areas.
Until them all we have are the naysayers who say we can't and we never will.

Hope you great night and enjoy your self.