The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Colin Parkinson]

Saab: "We also have a bridge to sell you"

https://www.nsnews.com/national-news/gripens-bound-for-ukraine-could-be-built-in-canada-saab-12342707

 

[WestIsle]

Saab: "We also have a bridge to sell you"

https://www.nsnews.com/national-news/gripens-bound-for-ukraine-could-be-built-in-canada-saab-12342707

"Up to 20 fighters built for Ukraine" some of which could be built in Canada

Do they even hear themselves. But then again this is the same group that was claiming the Griphen E was gonna be some sorta partial stealth fighter back in 2015. I am sure Ukraine is loving this though

 

[ytz]

The only Ukrainian fighters built in Canada will be the ones we pay for as aid.

 

[OldSolduer]

The only Ukrainian fighters built in Canada will be the ones we pay for as aid.

A cynical one you are but I’ll agree with that

 

[Cloud Cover]

For those of you that read Le Press, it seems Carney has decided on 30 F35 and 60 Gripen. It doesn’t make any sense to me, sort of like buying 2 classes of submarines and not enough of either to be anything more than an expensive political show.

 

[brihard]

For those of you that read Le Press, it seems Carney has decided on 30 F35 and 60 Gripen. It doesn’t make any sense to me, sort of like buying 2 classes of submarines and not enough of either to be anything more than an expensive political show.

I’ll wait for corroboration on this one.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I’ll wait for corroboration on this one.

Yep. If true i can’t see 60 aircraft worth the cost of a plant.

 

[HavokFour]

For those of you that read Le Press, it seems Carney has decided on 30 F35 and 60 Gripen. It doesn’t make any sense to me, sort of like buying 2 classes of submarines and not enough of either to be anything more than an expensive political show.

Analyse | Après les GlobalEye, le gouvernement Carney lorgne les avions de chasse Gripen

Signe de sa volonté de réduire la dépendance économique et militaire du Canada face aux États-Unis, le gouvernement Carney a décidé cette semaine d’écarter deux prétendants américains pour la fabrication d’avions de surveillance destinés à l’Aviation royale canadienne (ARC).

www.lapresse.ca

Nothing concrete, looks more like retreading the last couple months of headlines regarding the F-35 purchase.

The only "sources say" part doesn't really specify if it's referring to the full 88 being purchased or that 30-60 split, other than the gripen being attractive.

Legally, Canada is required to take delivery of 16 F-35 aircraft starting next year, but no contract has been signed for the remaining 72 aircraft.

According to federal government estimates, this project is currently valued at $27.7 billion and includes the cost of the 88 aircraft, as well as equipment, support services, training services and the construction of facilities for fighter squadrons.

Behind the scenes, sources told La Presse that the decision regarding the purchase of fighter jets is practically finalized. The option of buying Gripen aircraft is proving attractive. This is especially true since Saab indicated that if Ottawa accepts its offer, Canada could end up manufacturing aircraft not only to meet its own needs but also some destined for the Ukrainian Air Force. This could create some 9,000 new jobs and strengthen the supply chain in a critical sector.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I really hope the RCAF gets both aircraft in large numbers, the full 88 F35 and a long, solid, technologically evolving production run of domestic aircraft starting with Gripen but not necessarily ending with it. Anything to end this ridiculous whole fleet obsolescence cycle for all of the CAF equipment.

 

[childs56]

"Up to 20 fighters built for Ukraine" some of which could be built in Canada

I don't think SAAB has the factory space/capability to build a large order of Jets in a short time and keep up with other work.

Do they even hear themselves. But then again this is the same group that was claiming the Griphen E was gonna be some sorta partial stealth fighter back in 2015. I am sure Ukraine is loving this though

The Griphen has a pretty decent EW setup it can be equipped with. I think makes it an attractive platform overall.

 

[markppcli]

EW suits are basically impossible to be discussed in any meaningful way outside of a SCIF so however Saab choses to advertise that is impossible to actually assess.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Analyse | Après les GlobalEye, le gouvernement Carney lorgne les avions de chasse Gripen

Signe de sa volonté de réduire la dépendance économique et militaire du Canada face aux États-Unis, le gouvernement Carney a décidé cette semaine d’écarter deux prétendants américains pour la fabrication d’avions de surveillance destinés à l’Aviation royale canadienne (ARC).

www.lapresse.ca

Nothing concrete, looks more like retreading the last couple months of headlines regarding the F-35 purchase.

The only "sources say" part doesn't really specify if it's referring to the full 88 being purchased or that 30-60 split, other than the gripen being attractive.

Yeah I don't believe this in the slightest, it's "just trust me bro" slop. A 30-60 split makes absolutely zero sense regarding production figures and squadron requirements, and would be a horrible way for the RCAF to come out of this debacle.

 

[suffolkowner]

Yeah I don't believe this in the slightest, it's "just trust me bro" slop. A 30-60 split makes absolutely zero sense regarding production figures and squadron requirements, and would be a horrible way for the RCAF to come out of this debacle.

ghosts of Sea King/EH101 pasts will be with us forever, thus anything is believable. Sometimes politics delivers wins and sometimes it doesnt.
I question what the delivery schedule on a Gripen would be and how that would tie into our replacement requirements. Are we going to get a small 4.5 Gen aircraft to compliment a small F35 fleet sometime in the 2030's, when everyone else is bringing/working on 6 Gen aircraft?

 

[markppcli]

ghosts of Sea King/EH101 pasts will be with us forever, thus anything is believable. Sometimes politics delivers wins and sometimes it doesnt.
I question what the delivery schedule on a Gripen would be and how that would tie into our replacement requirements. Are we going to get a small 4.5 Gen aircraft to compliment a small F35 fleet sometime in the 2030's, when everyone else is bringing/working on 6 Gen aircraft?

Going off Brazil itll be 8 ish years to get a Gripen NG / E / CAN what ever made in Canada.

 

[YZT580]

Yep. If true i can’t see 60 aircraft worth the cost of a plant.

that is plus the ones we will build for Ukraine

 

[suffolkowner]

seems like this talk of a 30 F35 / 60 Gripen split is pretty heavy. I hope it is not true

 

[ytz]

Yep. If true i can’t see 60 aircraft worth the cost of a plant.

It's not going to be a "plant". It's going to be Lego Assembly with a few structural elements sourced in Canada to say it's "Canadian".

And 60 aircraft will be enough to justify this. Especially if let's say we tack on another 20-30 as aid for Ukraine.

All that said, while I'm willing to believe that some Gripen order will happen, I struggle with the specific proposed split. Highly likely that a split where it's only 30 F-35s would see a significant reaction from the US. Especially this administration.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

30-60 split would be a disaster for the RCAF and Canada.

30 Panthers is not enough to cover our NORAD commitment. It is enough for one really big Sqn and no OTU. It would not placate the Americans.

60 Grippens would form 2 big Sqns and an OTU or 3 weak Sqns and no OTU. The US could be dicks and just block the sale of F414 engines and other US tech, too. And 60 Grippens is too small a number, anyway.

If we are going to go split fleet, the Panther numbers still need to be significant (in the 50s?) and the Grippen buy needs to be big enough to impress the USAF that we are serious.

Edit- YTZ beat me to most of the salient points.

 

[SupersonicMax]

30-60 split would be a disaster for the RCAF and Canada.

30 Panthers is not enough to cover our NORAD commitment. It is enough for one really big Sqn and no OTU. It would not placate the Americans.

60 Grippens would form 2 big Sqns and an OTU or 3 weak Sqns and no OTU. The US could be dicks and just block the sale of F414 engines and other US tech, too. And 60 Grippens is too small a number, anyway.

If we are going to go split fleet, the Panther numbers still need to be significant (in the 50s?) and the Grippen buy needs to be big enough to impress the USAF that we are serious.

Edit- YTZ beat me to most of the salient points.

No Squadron will have 30 jets. A really big squadron is 24 jets or so. 15-20 would be more realistic. 30 F-35s would yield 2 average Squadrons. That’s in line with how the Aussies operate. Of course we need all 88 but failing that, at the very least 45 F-35s to have 2 front line units and an OTU.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

No Squadron will have 30 jets. A really big squadron is 24 jets or so. 15-20 would be more realistic. 30 F-35s would yield 2 average Squadrons. That’s in line with how the Aussies operate. Of course we need all 88 but failing that, at the very least 45 F-35s to have 2 front line units and an OTU.

I did not say the Sqn would have 30 jets. I said 30 jets is enough for a big Sqn and no OTU. 6 jets is not an OTU.

I agree with your 45 number. But that would not placate the US administration.