Replacing the Subs

[Colin Parkinson]

Wouldn’t the same also apply to 212CD?

I think so, but I worry about Germany actually fulfilling all of it's commitments and providing enough spare parts as well. Was not so long ago the German navy 6 subs were all tied up awaiting spare parts and maintenance.

 

[Nvlgzr]

I think so, but I worry about Germany actually fulfilling all of it's commitments and providing enough spare parts as well. Was not so long ago the German navy 6 subs were all tied up awaiting spare parts and maintenance.

I’m assuming that wasn’t a TKMS/HDW but a German navy issue since the Italians didn’t have this issue.

 

[Stoker]

As I mentioned awhile ago, (assuming SK wins) I think it might be a good idea to keep the first boat there and having training and support start there, it's likley the sub will be completed prior to the Esquimalt base being fully modified and equipped to deal with it. Perhaps when the 2nd boat is launched it stays there and works up and warranty issues dealt with as well. The first sub sails to the West coast. Possibly the 3 and 4th move to the East coast once facilities and shore crews are ready there.

I suspect that we may keep the Vics running till the 2nd boat is worked up. It will depend on operational demand, crew availability, shoreside space and money. Not to mention if you retire the Vics, where are you going to store them and with the incoming subs needing the docking space as well? I still think if we go KSS, the government will sell the Vics to a friendly nation. That gets rid of a problem quickly.

As soon as the announcement is official, the first groups of sailors already identified will be sent to S Korea to start learning, this will take the form of DL, classroom instruction, alongside training and at sea experience. There is a good possibility that S Korea may lend us a boat in their waters to use. At some point some members of the crew will be sent to the shipyard and as the build progresses the first crew along with some members of the 2nd will bring the first boat into service. At some point the first boat will come to Canada to be shown off for recruitment purposes and at the same time train new submariners. Some members of the first couple of crews will be selected for training cadre.

 

[Kanuck34]

Apologies if this has already been posted but an interesting discussion on the subs; CDA Experts Series - Canada’s Next Submarine

 

[oldcpu]

Apologies if this has already been posted but an interesting discussion on the subs; CDA Experts Series - Canada’s Next Submarine

That is an interesting podcast. The comments under the podcast in the Youtube video comments section is also of interest. There are a lot of misinformed statements in the comments, but regardless, its an interesting debate.

Reference Dr. Paul T. Mitchell's talk in the podcast, I don't know how much time he had to prepare before participating in the podcast, as likely he had other things going on in his life. While he may not have stated every aspect 100% correct, he did explore some aspects which are not talked about much, ... which are aspects needing to be considered ... so I enjoyed listening to his opinion.

 

[oldcpu]

Where I work is in close proximity to the submariners and had more than a few in my departments on ship over the years. As soon as the trigger is pulled you'll see a very large recruiting program for the boats. I can't speak specifically but there is some out of the box ideas for recruiting for boats being developed with potential international exchanges. Despite the naysayers we are recruiting more in the RCN these days and in a few years it should start to payoff.

I like your optimism regarding potential recruitment and retention, and I think that it is encouraging, but I believe we must remain cautious about assuming the recent uptick in Canadian Forces numbers translates directly into a sustained, long-term solution for the Royal Canadian Navy.

Given the recent hemorrhaging of trained sailors, and given the massive scale of the RCN's projected expansion — which includes manning the new submarines, the River-class destroyers, possibly new corvettes, the Harry de Wolf class, supply ships, smaller training vessels, and the additional essential shore fleet requirements to train and maintain (and manage new ship/boat procurements) — the challenge of not only recruiting but also training and retaining our sailor specialists is immense.

I too do hope the "Field of Dreams" "build it and they will come" approach will work, ... I too hope the salary adjustments will help reduce the hemorrhaging of personnel of trained sailors. However, I fear they alone will fall short of the requirement. The RCN is competing against the comforts of life ashore, where an enterprising individual can earn more money ashore.

I believe to truly succeed, we need a robust, sustained media campaign that justifies the strategic necessity of the RCN to the public and enables more recruitment, beyond the current high-quality factual RCN documentaries already produced. ie one such idea is an approach that encourages Canadian film studios to produce compelling fictionalized narratives (directly based on RCN history) that draw on our rich naval history to foster a stronger sense of purpose, identity and a desire to serve - and a desire to support the navy.

 

[oldcpu]

Wouldn’t the same also apply to 212CD?

I think a lot of the chatter about recruitment and retention, apply to both classes of submarines being proposed to the RCN. Its an issue the CF (and within the CF the RCN) need to solve for year after year - and not just meet recruitment and retention goals for one year.

The RCN is not the only western navy with a manpower issue, as other western navies also struggle ... but regardless - the issue needs to be solved for affected navies - and in particular (biased that I am) I am interested in seeing the RCN solve this.

I suspect this is possibly a topic for another area of this army.ca forum.

 

[oldcpu]

I disagree.

The Poles are spending a crapload of money on Korean kit. No one in NATO (to my knowledge) is giving them a hard time about that.

The reality is that TKMS has a full order book with the German/ Norwegian orders- so much so that the proposed delivery schedule for Canada actually has them each giving up an early boat.

It is actually better for NATO if Canada buys Korean. Overall, more boats in the water sooner for the Alliance.

I saw this on the Canadian PM's announcement web site (dated 29-June) ... and it made me re-ponder your assessment (and that of others).

Prime Minister Carney speaks with Secretary General of NATO Mark Rutte

The leaders discussed key priorities for the upcoming NATO Summit in Ankara, Türkiye, including strengthening defence investment, NATO’s defence capabilities, and continued support for Ukraine.

www.pm.gc.ca

From that PM news:

Today, the Prime Minister, Mark Carney, spoke with the Secretary General of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), Mark Rutte.

The leaders discussed key priorities for the upcoming NATO Summit in Ankara, Türkiye, including strengthening defence investment, NATO’s defence capabilities, and continued support for Ukraine.

Prime Minister Carney underlined Canada’s generational increase in defence investment – achieving NATO’s 2% of GDP target for the first time since the fall of the Berlin Wall. He also affirmed that Canada is on track to reach NATO’s 5% defence spending target. Over the last year, through Operation REASSURANCE, Canada has deployed its largest sustained military presence in Europe in more than three decades.

The Prime Minister and the Secretary General agreed to continue working closely together to ensure a strong, united NATO Alliance. They looked forward to meeting in person next week.

Further on Noah's True North Strategic View web site I read his speculation note with curiousity ( I quote below):

---

Noah Note: Let it be known that Rutte likely knows Canada’s submarine choice, at least the date. This has no relevance but I wamted to throw it out there to tease some of you. Anywho, NATO is next week. Bet you it's gonna be fun for a lot of reasons. Maybe you should be ready for it, what do I know.

I wonder.

Is it nominal practice for the PM of Canada to speak to the Secretary General of NATO before a meeting?

Further, I wonder, given Noah speculates that the Secretary of General of NATO knows either the Canadian submarine selection, or knows the exact planned announcement date ....

It has me speculating, was the outcome of Canadian Submarine Project decision something the Canadian PM discussed (very briefly) with the Secretary General of NATO ... so to test the 'political waters' about the Canadian decision/timing?

This inclines me to give more credence to the possibility that Canada may announce BEFORE the upcoming NATO meeting (for either sub) along, I think, with your assessment ... or during the meeting, as opposed to my strong view before that it would occur after the meeting (if KSS chosen).

And further, has me thinking an announcement BEFORE the upcoming NATO meeting could now be 50-50 (choice for either submarine) and not only for Type-212CD (if a before meeting announcement) like I was thinking prior.

The next few days this week could be interesting.

 

[Kanuck34]

That is an interesting podcast. The comments under the podcast in the Youtube video comments section is also of interest. There are a lot of misinformed statements in the comments, but regardless, its an interesting debate.

Reference Dr. Paul T. Mitchell's talk in the podcast, I don't know how much time he had to prepare before participating in the podcast, as likely he had other things going on in his life. While he may not have stated every aspect 100% correct, he did explore some aspects which are not talked about much, ... which are aspects needing to be considered ... so I enjoyed listening to his opinion.

Likewise, I enjoyed him exploring a few areas that have not been as broadly discussed in terms of bilge size etc.

 

[Czech_pivo]

@Retired AF Guy 26 June 15:00 SK 10 B2 option 2 B3
@JMCanada 29 June 5+2 SK & 5+2 Ger
@Nvlgzr 30 June 13:00EST SK & GER 8 + 6
@MilEME09 30 June 14:00 EST SK 12
@HavokFour 1 July SK 12
@OldSolduer 1 July - 3pm EST SK ?
@NavyShooter 2 July SK 12
@GR66 2 July Australia(!) 6 Collins Class
@Genetk44 3 July SK 12
@Oldgateboatdriver 3 July SK 12
@deepblue202 5 July SK 12
@Czech_pivo 7 July Ger 12
@Colin Parkinson 8 July SK 9
@foresterab 9 July SK 12
@calculus 10 July SK & GER 8 - 4
@vonGarvin 10 July 10:39 ADST SK 9
@oldcpu 13 July SK 12
@MacNav63 13 July SK 12
@KevinB 15 July Split - SK & GER 7 + 7

We've got 2 in the batter's box today.

@Nvlgzr & @MilEME09

On deck for tomorrow - @HavokFour & @OldSolduer

 

[stoker dave]

As regards crewing new submarines, does anyone know if these boats will support 'mixed genders'?

I sailed on ships that were about 15% female crewed and found that things generally worked out ok.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

As regards crewing new submarines, does anyone know if these boats will support 'mixed genders'?

I sailed on ships that were about 15% female crewed and found that things generally worked out ok.

Yes, they will. Both the TKMS and Hanwha boats.

 

[lenaitch]

But how many genders?

(Sorry, I'll see myself out . . . )

 

[Colin Parkinson]

But how many genders?

(Sorry, I'll see myself out . . . )

If we get the KSS, we are firing you out of the VLS as a celebratory test

 

[MilEME09]

@Retired AF Guy 26 June 15:00 SK 10 B2 option 2 B3
@JMCanada 29 June 5+2 SK & 5+2 Ger
@Nvlgzr 30 June 13:00EST SK & GER 8 + 6
@MilEME09 30 June 14:00 EST SK 12
@HavokFour 1 July SK 12
@OldSolduer 1 July - 3pm EST SK ?
@NavyShooter 2 July SK 12
@GR66 2 July Australia(!) 6 Collins Class
@Genetk44 3 July SK 12
@Oldgateboatdriver 3 July SK 12
@deepblue202 5 July SK 12
@Czech_pivo 7 July Ger 12
@Colin Parkinson 8 July SK 9
@foresterab 9 July SK 12
@calculus 10 July SK & GER 8 - 4
@vonGarvin 10 July 10:39 ADST SK 9
@oldcpu 13 July SK 12
@MacNav63 13 July SK 12
@KevinB 15 July Split - SK & GER 7 + 7

We've got 2 in the batter's box today.

@Nvlgzr & @MilEME09

On deck for tomorrow - @HavokFour & @OldSolduer

Yeah, and unless Carney makes a magic announcement up north, I am losing this bet