Public service employment has grown by 31 per cent

[McG]

Why can’t it be both?

Maybe, but nothing you offer substantiates that. “The public sector labour better be careful because they are not falling behind as quickly as private sector labour” does not substantiate that public sector is over compensated. Tobi Lütke is thrilled when the conversation is public vs private, because he wins from normalized lower wages. But the median tax payer is going to see nothing back from lower public sector pay.

The public sector needs to watch, if the grass gets too green ….

The single digit year old kid rages that someone shouldn’t have what they want. “It’s not fair that he got a cookie” … but after expending all their energy fighting to take the thing away and no energy on getting the thing for themselves, everyone is left the same or worse.

Instead of comparing private sector labour with public sector labour, compare labour to the executive and millionaire class. Instead of fighting on the same scraps, public and private labour should be asking why Zuckerberg is free to laugh at us all from onboard his private navy.

 

[Good2Golf]

A lot of Canadian society for some reason has a ‘Bucket of Crabs’ mindset…

 

[mariomike]

'Bucket of Crabs’ mindset…

Came up , after I retired , over Sick Bank Gratuity...

`I don't have it, so you shouldn't either,' instead of `you have it – why don't I?' It's not a race to the bottom.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Maybe, but nothing you offer substantiates that. “The public sector labour better be careful because they are not falling behind as quickly as private sector labour” does not substantiate that public sector is over compensated. Tobi Lütke is thrilled when the conversation is public vs private, because he wins from normalized lower wages. But the median tax payer is going to see nothing back from lower public sector pay.


The single digit year old kid rages that someone shouldn’t have what they want. “It’s not fair that he got a cookie” … but after expending all their energy fighting to take the thing away and no energy on getting the thing for themselves, everyone is left the same or worse.

Instead of comparing private sector labour with public sector labour, compare labour to the executive and millionaire class. Instead of fighting on the same scraps, public and private labour should be asking why Zuckerberg is free to laugh at us all from onboard his private navy.

The unionized PS Clerical staff do well wage wise, but anyone with a technical ticket or skill is making less than private, but will get better job security, pension and benefits than their private counterpart.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Maybe, but nothing you offer substantiates that. “The public sector labour better be careful because they are not falling behind as quickly as private sector labour” does not substantiate that public sector is over compensated. Tobi Lütke is thrilled when the conversation is public vs private, because he wins from normalized lower wages. But the median tax payer is going to see nothing back from lower public sector pay.


The single digit year old kid rages that someone shouldn’t have what they want. “It’s not fair that he got a cookie” … but after expending all their energy fighting to take the thing away and no energy on getting the thing for themselves, everyone is left the same or worse.

Instead of comparing private sector labour with public sector labour, compare labour to the executive and millionaire class. Instead of fighting on the same scraps, public and private labour should be asking why Zuckerberg is free to laugh at us all from onboard his private navy.

Except the public pays the public sectors wages, they are the employer. If they feel like the public sector is screwing them over on pay and performance then they might demand change to that.

Public sector can keep demanding more and will pretty much always get it, private sector is a much finer balancing act where if it is no longer profitable or worthwhile they will leave.

And increased wages in the public sector does effect everyone else. It means more taxes need to be raised to pay for it or more debt taken on. Seeing as the wages in the private sector aren’t going up as fast as the public sector that also means if there is a tax hike the private sector is effected more by it than the public sector is.

They made it clear during covid that the public sector was a golden egg that couldn’t be touched. Sending home most the employees with no work but full pay well the rest of us were stuck with CERB or EI shows how little regard they hold the Canadian public.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Do you have any thoughts on what you shared? This article seems to bemoan annual pay increments like those that are also built into CAF pay. Do you object to those?

From the first para you excluded:

So Fraser Institute identifies a wage gap between public and private, but it doesn’t substantiate its insinuation that public service is overpaid. We know cost of living has outstripped real wage growth. Why is the baseline assumption not that private sector is underpaying. I know the Rogerses, Sobeys, and Irvings are happy with this perspective because it defends them getting richer while paying their employees relatively less. But maybe we should consider it is the private sector that is underpaying.

Underpay and overpay are meaningless words without a cost measure, and the only mechanism we have for reliably measuring cost in a way that favours efficient allocation of resources is market pricing. Without putting all employees in the same market pricing situation, we almost can't know which are underpaid or overpaid. What we can know is what the market pricing is for employees subject to its conditions. Private enterprises pretty much define the benchmark by which everyone else less subject to market forces is underpaid or overpaid.

 

[McG]

Except the public pays the public sectors wages, they are the employer. If they feel like the public sector is screwing them over on pay and performance then they might demand change to that.

Public sector can keep demanding more and will pretty much always get it, private sector is a much finer balancing act where if it is no longer profitable or worthwhile they will leave.

And increased wages in the public sector does effect everyone else. It means more taxes need to be raised to pay for it or more debt taken on. Seeing as the wages in the private sector aren’t going up as fast as the public sector that also means if there is a tax hike the private sector is effected more by it than the public sector is.

Yeah, put that crab in the bucket.

They made it clear during covid that the public sector was a golden egg that couldn’t be touched. Sending home most the employees with no work but full pay well the rest of us were stuck with CERB or EI shows how little regard they hold the Canadian public.

Who is “they”?

 

[mariomike]

Except the public pays the public sectors wages, they are the employer. If they feel like the public sector is screwing them over on pay and performance then they might demand change to that.

When customers said, "I pay your salary." I never talked back. Even when you were breaking your back trying to help them.

But, I like how Jack Webb handled it,

The Association of Municipalities Ontario (AMO) , Emergency Services Steering Committee (ESSC) puts out a Position Paper:

Escalating Emergency Services Labour Costs and the Ontario Taxpayers’ Ability to Pay

Some discussion of the above in these ten pages,

Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay

Thread 'Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay'

18 Sep 2011

It seems that any time the yearly salary of a police officer is brought up, most people seem to complain that "police are grossly overpaid for what they do". I have a serious bone to pick with this issue. It's so evident that the general public is simply unaware of just how risky and demanding police work is. Heck, I'm just a civilian and I see how demanding police work is, just from having talked to many members of various police services, ranging from Constables up to Inspectors.

Whenever I bring up the fact that police constables are entitled to their salaries, the quickest replies...

• BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny
• Replies: 198
• Forum: Security and Emergency Services

 

[Eaglelord17]

Yeah, put that crab in the bucket.


Who is “they”?

The government, the ultimate decider of where the purse is spent.

When customers said, "I pay your salary." I never talked back. Even when you were breaking your back trying to help them.

But, I like how Jack Webb handled it,

The Association of Municipalities Ontario (AMO) , Emergency Services Steering Committee (ESSC) puts out a Position Paper:

Escalating Emergency Services Labour Costs and the Ontario Taxpayers’ Ability to Pay

Some discussion of the above in these ten pages,

Thread 'Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay'

18 Sep 2011

It seems that any time the yearly salary of a police officer is brought up, most people seem to complain that "police are grossly overpaid for what they do". I have a serious bone to pick with this issue. It's so evident that the general public is simply unaware of just how risky and demanding police work is. Heck, I'm just a civilian and I see how demanding police work is, just from having talked to many members of various police services, ranging from Constables up to Inspectors.

Whenever I bring up the fact that police constables are entitled to their salaries, the quickest replies...

• BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny
• Replies: 198
• Forum: Security and Emergency Services

There is a difference between yelling at a cop I pay your salary when being arrested and comparing wages and benefits between public and private sector, especially when there is direct comparisons between jobs.

For example a clerk is a clerk whether it is a government job or private sector job. If one is being paid more than the other you have something to directly compare and naturally we should question why one is more than the other.

I know the union would say they deserve more if the private sector was being paid more, yet when it is the other direction the comments are always they should be raised up to our standards.

The public also has a vested interest in getting the best bang for their buck, it is their money being spent.

Everyone isn’t keeping up to inflation but the public sector by a long shot has kept up better. It is largely why the wage gap exists in the first place.

 

[McG]

Everyone isn’t keeping up to inflation but the public sector by a long shot has kept up better. It is largely why the wage gap exists in the first place.

The wealthy are pulling ahead. CEOs have record incomes & banks have record profits, but you want to steal from the table of a passport clerk who you acknowledge is not keeping up.

 

[mariomike]

For example a clerk is a clerk whether it is a government job or private sector job.

I hear you. But, it's not that easy to get rid of municipal employees.

Our Mayor , and my employer, Mel Lastman R.I.P. put it this way,

They have jobs for life. I knew it was time to stop that. We tried to take it away from them because they had us by the balls. We fought like hell but couldn’t get rid of it. You don’t know what we had to go through. Try and fire them, you can’t.

 

[QV]

The government, the ultimate decider of where the purse is spent.

There is a difference between yelling at a cop I pay your salary when being arrested and comparing wages and benefits between public and private sector, especially when there is direct comparisons between jobs.

For example a clerk is a clerk whether it is a government job or private sector job. If one is being paid more than the other you have something to directly compare and naturally we should question why one is more than the other.

I know the union would say they deserve more if the private sector was being paid more, yet when it is the other direction the comments are always they should be raised up to our standards.

The public also has a vested interest in getting the best bang for their buck, it is their money being spent.

Everyone isn’t keeping up to inflation but the public sector by a long shot has kept up better. It is largely why the wage gap exists in the first place.

Last I checked the recruiting office and government jobs website is open to everyone.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The public sector and the private sector blaming each other

 

[mariomike]

Sometimes wonder if contracting out municipal services like garbage collection and snow removal is worth it.


Forensic audit reveals $56M blunder behind Toronto’s controversial snow-clearing contracts
An ‘unusual and unexpected’ process is at the heart of Toronto’s snow-clearing woes

https://www.torontotoday.ca/local/city-hall/forensic-audit-reveals-56m-blunder-behind-torontos-controversial-snow-clearing-contracts-12057845

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I hear you. But, it's not that easy to get rid of municipal employees.

Our Mayor , and my employer, Mel Lastman R.I.P. put it this way,

Myself and the other acting manager for our program set up to fire an employee in the Federal PS, we got all our ducks in a row, the union rep could not see any step that we missed, it was our senior management that chickened out, for no good reason. In fact in our Federal management course, a good chunk of it was about how to successful fire someone. Most of the time the management has sloppy paperwork and did not follow the contractual process. As soon as you think you have a problem on your hands, you need to document and start the various processes and use the tools provided.

 

[mariomike]

Myself and the other acting manager for our program set up to fire an employee in the Federal PS, we got all our ducks in a row, the union rep could not see any step that we missed, it was our senior management that chickened out, for no good reason. In fact in our Federal management course, a good chunk of it was about how to successful fire someone. Most of the time the management has sloppy paperwork and did not follow the contractual process. As soon as you think you have a problem on your hands, you need to document and start the various processes and use the tools provided.

It's almost impossible to get kicked out. Unless you’ve become a public disgrace, they’ll tolerate most anything.

All sorts of programs available now.

Cautions. Warnings. Last chances. Reprieves.

They might transfer you to another department if you promise to shape up.

Probation is different. The union will send a rep to hold your hand. But, they can let you go anytime, or extend your Probation.

 

[daftandbarmy]

An article from 2018, but it seems that it can be done...

Number of government employees fired for misconduct, incompetence sees sharp increase​

New management system, technology reportedly catching more bad apples​

While it's a small percentage of the more than 260,000 people who work in federal government departments, the number of people being fired for incompetence or misconduct has been on the rise.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/government-fired-misconduct-incompetence-1.4746602