Army.ca Forums

Milnet.ca => Communications & Electronics => Topic started by: Hamish Seggie on September 22, 2013, 17:13:27

Title: Tablets
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 22, 2013, 17:13:27
Is there any move to procure a tablet style computer for the field?

The reason I ask is that all the trg pams needed to conduct ranges could be on one tablet instead of packing a mish mash of books that may be out of date or worse.
It does not need wifi capability nor messaging softwar, Internet access etc as it is for reference only.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Cyrius007 on September 22, 2013, 17:17:36
there is a few companies with tablet integrated military products. The idea will probably make it's way.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: PuckChaser on September 22, 2013, 17:31:05
Only thing I've heard is they're working on a replacement for the CDT in the LAVs. If you want something for training use only, you may be able to get one procured through your local ASG or your unit's budget. We had 15 Playbooks bought for Op Attention to keep all of the lesson plans and reference manuals, they were a life saver in the classroom mentoring.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: s2184 on September 22, 2013, 18:18:43
iPad is not a possibility or no good/too expensive?
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: PuckChaser on September 22, 2013, 18:48:40
iPad is not a possibility or no good/too expensive?

Specifically with my example? We went with a quote for Playbooks because the CF already uses Blackberry devices, and they were far cheaper. They did what we needed with no bells and whistles, and we got very limited pushback from CEFCOM when we put the request in.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 22, 2013, 19:31:15
iPad is not a possibility or no good/too expensive?
It's not Canadian and it runs on a different OS.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Ludoc on September 22, 2013, 20:53:27
Tablets are, generally, quite fragile. Also, they don't run well in the cold, can not be subject to wet conditions and do not have the battery life to sustain long term use. The ones that do all these things are quite expensive.

Besides, why spend money buying tablets when the CF already spends a tonne of money on ruggedized laptops.

Drop by Sig stores and sign out a CF 29/30/31. As PD task one of your Private/Corporals with downloading the PAMs onto it. I'll bet you a beer, they won't know where to look at first but by the end will be able to use DWAN for more than just surfing the Chive. Everyone wins: the bean counters are happy we aren't buying more equipment; the Sig storesman actually got to do his job and support the unit; the Private/Corporal learned to navigate the DIN; and you have electronic PAMs.

Edit: Grammar
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 22, 2013, 22:37:30

Drop by Sig stores and sign out a CF 29/30/31. As PD task one of your Private/Corporals with downloading the PAMs onto it. I'll bet you a beer, they won't know where to look at first but by the end will be able to use DWAN for more than just surfing the Chive. Everyone wins: the bean counters are happy we aren't buying more equipment; the Sig storesman actually got to do his job and support the unit; the Private/Corporal learned to navigate the DIN; and you have electronic PAMs.

Edit: Grammar
Speaking as a PRes CWO, the advice "Drop by Sig stores and sign out a CF 29/30/31" ain't the solution. Our Bde is spread out over three provinces and three time zones and laptons that were recapped have not been replaced, never mind ruggedized ones.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: PuckChaser on September 22, 2013, 23:04:16
Speaking as a PRes CWO, the advice "Drop by Sig stores and sign out a CF 29/30/31" ain't the solution. Our Bde is spread out over three provinces and three time zones and laptons that were recapped have not been replaced, never mind ruggedized ones.

That's not just a PRes issue, my unit has less than 6 CF29/30s.

If you can ruggedize a laptop, you can do it (I'd say even easier) to a tablet. It should be a capability the CF is looking into, but I doubt they are.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Ludoc on September 23, 2013, 00:35:57
Speaking as a PRes CWO, the advice "Drop by Sig stores and sign out a CF 29/30/31" ain't the solution. Our Bde is spread out over three provinces and three time zones and laptons that were recapped have not been replaced, never mind ruggedized ones.

Seen. Sometimes, I forget that the PRes operates under different constraints than the Reg Force.

I imagine you guys are even more budget constrained than we are. So I'll bet it is hard to get your hands on the few pieces of IT resources allocated to the Bde.

You might try talking to your local Reserve Comm Sqn. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the reserves to know if they will be assigned any laptops. I suspect they may be focused on TacRad due to a lack of resources to do much else. However, I am getting outside my lane, so it may be worth reaching out just to ask.

You may just try to circumvent the CAF's lack of IT equipment by just loading the PAMs on your phone. I know a lot of them are available online, and I have loaded a bunch on my own phone just so I have a quick reference on Ex.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Shamrock on September 23, 2013, 01:45:46
Is there any move to procure a tablet style computer for the field?

The reason I ask is that all the trg pams needed to conduct ranges could be on one tablet instead of packing a mish mash of books that may be out of date or worse.

Perhaps I'm out to lunch, but why wouldn't the range pubs be up to date and reviewed prior to the range beginning?  They're all available on the DWAN at publications.  Yes, updating electronic copy is faster and ostensibly more convenient, but if RSOs and OIC Ranges aren't exercising due diligence, this is just another way to cut corners.

Incidentally, is not the decree that hard copy be brought to ranges?  Been a while since I ran a range, so wouldn't this need be addressed before local purchases made?  Incidentally, if it's only for pubs, I'd recommend an e-book reader.  Much cheaper, comparable durability, much longer battery life.  I keep various open-source manuals on mine.

Edit:  In a pinch, one can e-mail a pub to himself on hs BlackBerry.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Baz on September 23, 2013, 04:00:22
Tablets are, generally, quite fragile. Also, they don't run well in the cold, can not be subject to wet conditions and do not have the battery life to sustain long term use. The ones that do all these things are quite expensive.

Besides, why spend money buying tablets when the CF already spends a tonne of money on ruggedized laptops.

Drop by Sig stores and sign out a CF 29/30/31...

It's too bad more people:
A) didn't understand how the call-up system works (http://computer.pwgsc.gc.ca/index-eng.cfm?af=ZnVzZWFjdGlvbj1idXlfbWljcm8ucHJvZHVjdHNfbm90ZWJvb2tzJmNtZHR5PTImUmVxdWVzdFRpbWVvdXQ9OTAwJmxhbmc9ZW5n (http://computer.pwgsc.gc.ca/index-eng.cfm?af=ZnVzZWFjdGlvbj1idXlfbWljcm8ucHJvZHVjdHNfbm90ZWJvb2tzJmNtZHR5PTImUmVxdWVzdFRpbWVvdXQ9OTAwJmxhbmc9ZW5n)
B) didn't look at their requirements more

It seems that the CF-19, available for $3000 on call up, is far better for your need.  It's a convertible so it will work like a little laptop or a thick tablet.  It's pricey, but tough.  By the way a Rover 5 kit comes with a CF-19, so it can't be all bad.

It's also too bad the GETAC V100 and V200 aren't available (yet) on call up, I find they are better than the equivalent Panasonic products, and both are convertibles, just different sizes.

I have lots of experience, including coding for, CF-19s, CF30s, CF31s, V100s, and V200s, and related docks; I prefer the GETACs.  Unfortunately, I think I need to move away from them as getting bandwidth through the docks can be a problem.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Fishbone Jones on September 23, 2013, 09:01:47
I had all my relevant pams in .pdf format and loaded on my KOBO reader.

Worked fine for anyone needing a quick reference and you couldn't play any stupid games on it.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Lightguns on September 23, 2013, 09:53:23
Recce has the right idea.  Alot of ruggedized laptops spend more time at home with the usual suspects writing papers for MA courses than doing army stuff.  There is a move to limit access and pool such laptops as a result of restraint measures.  I have a Kindle White, it holds every pub on artillery, small arms and individual training I need, plus 300 books to read on bushcraft, 19th century chicken farming and assorted novels on UFOs and all the other strange stuff my mind wanders about (yes, I mean wanders).

No spell check possible due to the freakin' DWAN hating pop up windows more than usual today.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: dapaterson on September 23, 2013, 10:02:43
Baz, regardless of the requirement, units are not permitted to acquire computers to meet their needs.  The centralized Gods must decide what to buy on behalf of the people with the requirement and when (or whether) to deliver.  It was bad enough when the IM/IT sections were part of DND/CF; now that SSC is its own little dysfunctional empire, I think we'll be able to measure service response time in years...

Alternatively, buy a cheap tablet from dx.com (7" Androids go for under $80, shipped); burn the PAMs to a CD, take the CD to a home PC and transfer them to the tablet.  (Since officially you can't use the same flash drive on the DWAN and at home)

When in doubt, ignore the system and make things work.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: s2184 on September 23, 2013, 10:59:04
Puckchaser, the resolution of your playbook is ok? I bought a playbook from BestBuy for $229 last year & it was a garbage. The resolution was bad and the power section was terrible.

Jim, I understand your concerns about iPad, but in case if you use it for professional things (pilot) you will not live without it.

Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Baz on September 23, 2013, 11:28:39
Baz, regardless of the requirement, units are not permitted to acquire computers to meet their needs.  The centralized Gods must decide what to buy on behalf of the people with the requirement and when (or whether) to deliver.  It was bad enough when the IM/IT sections were part of DND/CF; now that SSC is its own little dysfunctional empire, I think we'll be able to measure service response time in years...

Alternatively, buy a cheap tablet from dx.com (7" Androids go for under $80, shipped); burn the PAMs to a CD, take the CD to a home PC and transfer them to the tablet.  (Since officially you can't use the same flash drive on the DWAN and at home)

When in doubt, ignore the system and make things work.

I'm not suggesting they are allowed to purchase them, although in certain cases they are (ie to support pre-approved projects).  I know because I've done it quite a bit.  You are right, almost everytime the IT world tried to step in, but most times they were pushed back when it was pointed out that it was project buy, not a national infrastructure buy.

What I am suggesting is that if it is a requirements, justify it and spec it properly, and then the computers will get brought into the system.  Ironically, there is money in the system to support requirements like this (we gave back almost $2B last year!), and my point is that there are good matches to the requirement in the system.

As a matter of fact, because it is on call-up, and it already has a LCMM assigned, this is a perfect match to an MR buy.  No overhead of bidding and/or sole source, and support already in place.

Unfortunately, when you ignore the system and just make things work, they don't work for very long, normally just til your next APS.  Which doesn't actually fix anything.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 23, 2013, 12:24:46
Basically all we would need is a Kobo reader type thing for the ranges.
The stuff we'd need on it are all weapons pams for a PRes unit (Small Arms basically), Ranges & Trg Safety, Inf Pl/Sect in Battle, RSOs for Shilo, Wainwright, Dundurn (for 38 CBG), Unit SOPs etc.

It doesn't need to communicate on wi fi, just plug it in to a desktop and download what you need.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: dapaterson on September 23, 2013, 12:37:44
Baz:  Fine in theory, lousy in practice.  As a part-time Reservist, I have ~40 days a year to do things.  The full-time staff i nthe unit are already overloaded.

So either the Higfher HQs do their job and enable their units, or people do workarounds because the system is not repsonsive.

Or maybe we pay attention to that Mission Command thing, and when a commander says "I need a tablet to conduct unit operations" that is sufficient - no more G6 farting around looking for the 17 pieces of paper that they think is required.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 23, 2013, 12:41:21
Baz:  Fine in theory, lousy in practice.  As a part-time Reservist, I have ~40 days a year to do things.  The full-time staff i nthe unit are already overloaded.

So either the Higfher HQs do their job and enable their units, or people do workarounds because the system is not repsonsive.

Or maybe we pay attention to that Mission Command thing, and when a commander says "I need a tablet to conduct unit operations" that is sufficient - no more G6 farting around looking for the 17 pieces of paper that they think is required.

Our G6 is having a look at it. I'm not sure where it will go.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Bzzliteyr on September 23, 2013, 12:50:21
There were e-readers on sale at Costco last week.  Of course, we can't spend government dollars there.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: PuckChaser on September 23, 2013, 12:59:22
Puckchaser, the resolution of your playbook is ok? I bought a playbook from BestBuy for $229 last year & it was a garbage. The resolution was bad and the power section was terrible.

Was absolutely fine for what we needed it for, could even zoom in on diagrams and see the details.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: MOOXE on January 09, 2014, 01:26:53
So where did this go?

This is more a less a plea for convenience vice capability, a want more than a need. If the guy keeps the manuals up to date on the device, what stopping him from providing a printed copy for the field? Lets be honest, as soon as this device doesn't work (dead battery, broken) someone is going to say, "You should of printed it." Right?

The easiest, most convenient, cost effective and proven reliable method for the OPs scenario is hard copy.

Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Journeyman on January 09, 2014, 01:36:57
The easiest, most convenient, cost effective and proven reliable method for the OPs scenario is hard copy.
Unlike the OP, I'm going to guess that you're either unfamiliar with how many pubs are out there (and their page count), and/or you've never worked with light infantry and know the weight limits of a ruck -- we don't all have library-sized vehicles for support.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: GnyHwy on January 09, 2014, 07:23:28
The easiest, most convenient, cost effective and proven reliable method for the OPs scenario is hard copy.

Hard copies are junk.  Far too many pages, can't quick search keywords, likely always out of date unless you dedicate a person to reread and pull and insert pages on a daily basis.

Also, the intent of AEL and other Sharepoint sites is to standardize pubs so that everyone is reading the same thing.

I'm relatively old and know that e-copy is the way to go.  To hear a Sig say hard copy over e-copy is a bit of a surprise.  :o

Two real COAs and a throw away COA:

1.  E-reader - (preferred for field ranges) for its cheap (yes cheap is good some times), simplistic, light, power conscious ability to manage many pubs.  Draw back is that is all it does.
2.  Tablet - good if you want growth potential and the ability to run other software, apps and other type files.  Draw back is that it is expensive, IT dependent, relatively complex and power hungry.
3.  Hard copies - look great on a shelf, organized for the once in a blue moon someone needs a quick peek at something that likely didn't change in the last week and isn't logged into a computer.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: MOOXE on January 09, 2014, 09:39:16
Not enough room in a vehicle, rucks to heavy and having to update the pages daily, come on guys! We are talking about a range here and I think everyone's managed so far with range boxes with hard copies of pubs.

If someone can give a real world example of how not having an e-reader/tablet at a range vice the pubs actually impacting training I'd like to hear.

Adding new electronic equipment to our inventory is very difficult. There's risks involved, a lot of behind the scenes training and maintenance, modifying or loading special software for DWAN access, ruggedizing... It's doable, but for the right reasons. If there's a real training deficiency identified that e-readers or tablets will fill on a range then the military will start moving to fix that.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 09, 2014, 09:48:10
So we should just stay locked in the 20th century because someone doesn't want extra work.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Jed on January 09, 2014, 10:43:06
MOOXE, I am surprised you have already acquired the attitude that if I gave you that pair of socks I have in the back then I would not have the reserve pair to sit on the shelf.  :D
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Thucydides on January 09, 2014, 11:35:01
When I was at AUSA 2006 I saw a ruggedized tablet which had VoIP and a radio module, you could download maps, docs and various other programs (it ran Windows, which was the only weakness in that concept) and use it as a VHF voice and data radio platform too.

Since it was somewhat smaller and lighter than an AN/PRC 522 (roughly the size/weight of a CF-28 ruggedized laptop) I think we have a winning concept there. Replace the Windows OS with a UNIX based one and we can use the ruggedized tablet for far more than just storing and reading pams on the range...
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Colin P on January 09, 2014, 12:48:27
I had all my relevant pams in .pdf format and loaded on my KOBO reader.

Worked fine for anyone needing a quick reference and you couldn't play any stupid games on it.

For manuals and such the Kobo reader is great and has a long battery life, not sure how long it will survive the field though. At $79 from Staples, it worth experimenting with. The BC library system is built to work with Kobo reader, does the military have a electronic library system as well?

(My wife says it's worth immigrating to Canada just for our library system alone)
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: PuckChaser on January 09, 2014, 12:51:43
Its not for a Kobo, but Otterbox makes cases for the Kindle Fire:

http://www.otterbox.com/Defender-Series-for-the-All-New-Kindle-Fire-HD-7%E2%80%9D/amz2-kindle-fire-hd-7-allNew,default,pd.html?dwvar_amz2-kindle-fire-hd-7-allNew_color=20&start=1&cgid=amazon-kindle-fire-hd-7-all-new-cases (http://www.otterbox.com/Defender-Series-for-the-All-New-Kindle-Fire-HD-7%E2%80%9D/amz2-kindle-fire-hd-7-allNew,default,pd.html?dwvar_amz2-kindle-fire-hd-7-allNew_color=20&start=1&cgid=amazon-kindle-fire-hd-7-all-new-cases)

Would be rugged enough for most field applications. Not 100% waterproof but thats why we have ziplock bags.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Newt on January 09, 2014, 13:20:14
What about something like this? http://www.meetearl.com/ (http://www.meetearl.com/)

Rugged body.
Integrated solar panel.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: MOOXE on January 09, 2014, 17:14:49
So we should just stay locked in the 20th century because someone doesn't want extra work.

Troll.

I would love to be the guy who acquired new equipment to fill a void. As signalers we're also consultants. Our job is not to say yes to every request that comes down the pipe. I am going to advise you based on your requirements and my experience with technology. In this specific case my advise is that tablets are absolutely the wrong piece of equipment for the task. We have alternatives that fulfill the requirement now which nobody can dispute.

To answer the OPs original question. New technology is always being looked at, including tablets. From what I have heard though, there is a directive from the army forbidding any purchases of tablets. Can't quote or give a reference on that sorry. Its probably based on a number of issues such as finance and security.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 09, 2014, 17:19:00
Troll.

I would love to be the guy who acquired new equipment to fill a void. As signalers we're also consultants. Our job is not to say yes to every request that comes down the pipe. I am going to advise you based on your requirements and my experience with technology. In this specific case my advise is that tablets are absolutely the wrong piece of equipment for the task. We have alternatives that fulfill the requirement now which nobody can dispute.

To answer the OPs original question. New technology is always being looked at, including tablets. From what I have heard though, there is a directive from the army forbidding any purchases of tablets. Can't quote or give a reference on that sorry. Its probably based on a number of issues such as finance and security.

Careful with the named calling.

I asked a question to clarify your reluctance. Sorry if you didn't expect to get called on your opinion.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: MOOXE on January 09, 2014, 17:21:17
And sorry if you didn't expect to get called on your comment.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 09, 2014, 17:25:20
And sorry if you didn't expect to get called on your comment.

I did expect a response. That's why I asked the question.

What I did expect was an informed opinion, not childish name calling.

So cut the smarmy crap and stick to the subject.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: MOOXE on January 09, 2014, 17:31:44
"So we should just stay locked in the 20th century because someone doesn't want extra work."

I didn't see a question. Just a sarcastic remark intended to make incite a reaction.



Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 09, 2014, 17:33:08
Sure. Whatever. I forgot a question mark, sue me.

Your obviously not interested in exploring the subject except for your own view.

So have a nice day.

You've beaten me. I'll just take my KOBO that served me so well in the field, cheaply and without worry, and go home :salute:
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on January 09, 2014, 17:44:14
MOOXE,....lighten up lad, I would have asked the same question as RG did.

Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Loachman on January 09, 2014, 17:52:54
As signalers we're also consultants. Our job is not to say yes to every request that comes down the pipe. I am going to advise you based on your requirements and my experience with technology. In this specific case my advise is that tablets are absolutely the wrong piece of equipment for the task. We have alternatives that fulfill the requirement now which nobody can dispute.

I have about three decades worth of experience, out of four in uniform in total, of "consultants" and experts  - and not just sigs "consultants" and experts - "advising" us based upon their superior knowledge of our requirements and then throwing out every obstacle to satisfying real needs imaginable.

Operators tend to understand their requirements much better than consultants, and are generally quite aware of the viable technological solutions to those requirements. They have, as some here have stated, even confirmed what works and what doesn't using their own kit.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Colin P on January 09, 2014, 17:59:33
I can only imagine the gnashing of teeth when my unit borrowed some moving trucks to conduct a weekend gunnery exercise and left the horses behind in the early 30's. You need to allow a certain amount of experimentation at the field level to try out new ideas and they can be submitted for further review and polishing. Tech is changing far faster than government can deal with it. Letting interested individuals play with it at the field level will shave years and millions off of R&D projects. There are pitfalls and a certain level of failures should be encouraged.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 09, 2014, 18:02:40
I can only imagine the gnashing of teeth when my unit borrowed some moving trucks to conduct a weekend gunnery exercise and left the horses behind in the early 30's. You need to allow a certain amount of experimentation at the field level to try out new ideas and they can be submitted for further review and polishing. Tech is changing far faster than government can deal with it. Letting interested individuals play with it at the field level will shave years and millions off of R&D projects. There are pitfalls and a certain level of failures should be encouraged.
I have about three decades worth of experience, out of four in uniform in total, of "consultants" and experts  - and not just sigs "consultants" and experts - "advising" us based upon their superior knowledge of our requirements and then throwing out every obstacle to satisfying real needs imaginable.

Operators tend to understand their requirements much better than consultants, and are generally quite aware of the viable technological solutions to those requirements. They have, as some here have stated, even confirmed what works and what doesn't using their own kit.

As it should be. More good ideas have gone by the wayside simply because empire builders, who think they know best, refuse to get out of their stovepipes and listen to anyone else.

You miss a lot when you go through life with self installed blinders on.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Jed on January 09, 2014, 18:05:10
I can only imagine the gnashing of teeth when my unit borrowed some moving trucks to conduct a weekend gunnery exercise and left the horses behind in the early 30's. You need to allow a certain amount of experimentation at the field level to try out new ideas and they can be submitted for further review and polishing. Tech is changing far faster than government can deal with it. Letting interested individuals play with it at the field level will shave years and millions off of R&D projects. There are pitfalls and a certain level of failures should be encouraged.

Great post. The greater ARMY collective will always stomp hard on those at the coal face doing their own cheap and effective R&D projects. This type of experimentation is necessary to move ahead productively.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Baz on January 09, 2014, 18:06:42
It is funny how there are a lot of support trades that think they know more about the operators requirements than the operators do...
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: MOOXE on January 09, 2014, 18:35:48
Well like I said earlier, I am speaking from the OPs request to replace pubs/manuals on a range. The capabilities he wants have been stated so I know exactly what he wants. This is not a case of me knowing his requirements better than he does.

If I were to speak in a general sense as some of you are, then support trades would also be one of the primary operators of this equipment. Our requirement to read pubs in a convenient way are the same as everyone elses.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Harris on January 09, 2014, 19:39:35
To answer the OPs original question. New technology is always being looked at, including tablets. From what I have heard though, there is a directive from the army forbidding any purchases of tablets. Can't quote or give a reference on that sorry. Its probably based on a number of issues such as finance and security.

If that is actually the case no one told 5 Div HQ and they received a handfull about a year ago to use from the "system".
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: MOOXE on January 09, 2014, 19:55:44
Apparently there's a pile of iPads at 2 ASG as well, locked up.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: GnyHwy on January 09, 2014, 21:47:38
Tablets are very easy to get, but at a $$$.  Long term maintenance and sustainment plans aren't cheap.  This is why I mention it as the solution for growth and if you intend on doing more than reading pdfs.  For ranges, pdfs will no doubt suffice.  Anyone who recommends hard copies needs to come to my world and deal with the dozens of pubs (all field relative) that are forever in revision.

E-readers come with essentially 0 risk.  They are dirt cheap, extremely low power budget, and can be treated just like a memory stick.

Hardware is now disposable.  No one mention field hardened ever again.  We can buy 20 COTS for the same price as a single "hardened" unit.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: PuckChaser on January 09, 2014, 21:53:12
Hardware is now disposable.  No one mention field hardened ever again.  We can buy 20 COTS for the same price as a single "hardened" unit.

Absolutely true. Look at the Toughbooks. $3-5K for a laptop that should cost $500.

I think the CF seriously needs to look at EReaders with some tough cases. Only security concerns are plugging into DWAN PCs (permission for digital cameras is there, not a big issue) and Controlled Goods. I would love to be able to carry every CF communications pub in a leg pocket to have access to whatever answer I need.

Future projects are already looking at connecting the soldier with small PDAs. Tablets will happen, its a matter of when and what capabilities we want.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: MOOXE on January 09, 2014, 22:00:33
Hardware is now disposable.

Deserves a new topic.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Hamish Seggie on January 09, 2014, 22:31:08
When we, even the PRes go to the ranges etc, we must tote along a stupid huge range box full of publications, that may or may not be current. Two e-readers would solve that issue. One near the RSO and one in the CP.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Journeyman on January 10, 2014, 01:13:07
..... we must tote along a stupid huge range box full of publications.....
Give it to the Jimmies to carry; apparently that's the best way to deal with pubs.    ;)
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Colin P on January 10, 2014, 11:24:37
Remember when calculators where rare items? E-readers are going to get better yet, flexible screens will likely be common and affordable in a decade. people will likely have a tablet/e-reader fitted into their field Message Pad holder in the near future.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 10, 2014, 11:40:44
Remember when calculators where rare items? E-readers are going to get better yet, flexible screens will likely be common and affordable in a decade. people will likely have a tablet/e-reader fitted into their field Message Pad holder in the near future.

But not before some Jimmy NCO says you can, apparently.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Lightguns on January 10, 2014, 11:43:54
But not before some Jimmy NCO says you can, apparently.

But first the little Jimmy NCO will have to get permission from Shared Services Canada on whether or not he is allowed to have an opinion.  Soon SSC is going to make a play for all IS not deployed out of Canada and Jimmy is going to be de-nutted like a mutt in the city pound!
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: PuckChaser on January 10, 2014, 16:11:57
But first the little Jimmy NCO will have to get permission from Shared Services Canada on whether or not he is allowed to have an opinion.  Soon SSC is going to make a play for all IS not deployed out of Canada and Jimmy is going to be de-nutted like a mutt in the city pound!

Too late. Thats probably why I stayed Core though, as far away from DWAN and IS/IT as I can....
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Hamish Seggie on January 11, 2014, 10:37:40
Give it to the Jimmies to carry; apparently that's the best way to deal with pubs.    ;)

Our Jimmies don't want to play...... ???
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on January 11, 2014, 11:34:17
Give it to the Jimmies to carry; apparently that's the best way to deal with pubs.    ;)

Well, they do need to be read somehow.

But not before some Jimmy NCO says you can, apparently.

Well, if people keep buying whatever they want, we'll keep getting guys show up wanting to us to set DWAN up these:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fwww.engadget.com%2Fmedia%2F2013%2F09%2Fgalaxy-tab-3-kids-lede.jpg&hash=8182fc69362d5d3fba0d91b568627cdd)

Now, jokes aside, as far as the original request: SAFETY/RANGE PUBS

My old unit, we did get approval from a certain Training area for laptop with a USB stick loaded with the electronic copies of the pubs to meet the requirement. However, we still needed to have our Range Box with required hard copy of pubs available. Reasoning being, what if your laptop/power source dies.

Spin-off: sourcing tablets/e-readers

If it already in the system, you need change your unit's entitlement to get them. Off the top of my head, I know of Blackberry playbooks in the system (they suck, but they're there, and you can hook em up to DWAN or BB's).

CF-19's are overkill for a PAM/PUB repository, and I'm sure any available should be required for other tasks.

Believe me, I've had issues procuring stuff. Yes, I understand it's frustrating when you have a budget, and want to buy something, and I say "I can't get that for you, it's not allowed."

IS procurement is a HUGE PITA. And it seems to me that RFCs are base in area's, not nationwide, so "yes I understand some Col in Kingston has a USB turbohub hooked-up to his DVPNI laptop, but apparently I have to jump through the hoops here in Western Area to get you one sir. Turn around is however long it takes"

I would love to be able to just go out and buy proven kit, especially if it's with someone else money, but unfortunately, I get my pee pee slapped pretty hard for it. Personally, if it's not going to be plugged into the IS infrastructure, and it's not in the system, get your RQ to LPO.

spin-off: Empire building & SSC

It's there, it's going to happen, we'll keep trying to find fixes to avoid it, but it IS going to affect everyone. Timelines have already gotten longer for repair/replacement, as approval levels keep going higher and higher.

Unhappy with it? Talk to your Ops, have them start engaging your J6 levels, with documented examples of slow timeframe and lack of answers.

Sorry I can't just buy stuff for you with your budget/money.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Sir_Spams_a_lot on January 11, 2014, 11:43:39
iPod touch in an otter box, about $400 all in. Sorted.  You're welcome.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Hamish Seggie on January 11, 2014, 11:48:17
iPod touch in an otter box, about $400 all in. Sorted.  You're welcome.

But its not Canadian!!! Oh heavens!!
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: PuckChaser on January 11, 2014, 12:29:18
iPod touch in an otter box, about $400 all in. Sorted.  You're welcome.

And there is far cheaper solutions which don't require Apple's proprietary software.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Sir_Spams_a_lot on January 11, 2014, 12:41:32
And there is far cheaper solutions which don't require Apple's proprietary software.

That fit in a shirt pocket?  Again, you're welcome.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: PuckChaser on January 11, 2014, 17:04:44
That fit in a shirt pocket?  Again, you're welcome.

Because shirt pockets are the overarching factor in picking technological advancements.  ::)
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Sir_Spams_a_lot on January 11, 2014, 17:52:46
Because shirt pockets are the overarching factor in picking technological advancements.  ::)

No, apparently over engineered, grossly over valued and borderline useless equipment are... ::) back atcha.

PS you really should learn to realize when someone is having a laugh.  Here's a hint;  There isn't much in this forum that I do reply seriously to, as I find the pretty much the whole military system quite funny.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: PuckChaser on January 11, 2014, 17:54:17
Well then, thanks for chiming in while the rest of us were having a serious discussion.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Sir_Spams_a_lot on January 11, 2014, 17:55:00
Well then, thanks for chiming in while the rest of us were having a serious discussion.

It's what I do, you're entirely welcome.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Journeyman on January 11, 2014, 19:00:09
It's time for a........


(https://forum-s3.pinside.com/201306/920561/107210.jpg)    ;)
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on January 11, 2014, 20:26:53
Tablets would be a great purchase, especially for HQ's who tend to generate an insane amount of paperwork/paper wasting.  I frequently spend hours printing and binding 100's of pages of powerpoint slides a week for any number of briefs my boss has to attend.  If we had tablets, it would save enormous amounts of paper as I would simply be able to upload the briefs to the Commander's tablet which he could then use at the upcoming brief he has to attend.  This would also allow for quick changes to briefs to occur and no longer would staff have to scramble to print out last minute copies of the 200 page powerpoint deck they just made.

This sort of thing is common practice in universities and many work places across the country.  My mother, who works in education, uses a tablet for all her presentations, briefs, etc... that she needs to give or attend; therefore, why does the military have to be any different?

Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: NFLD Sapper on January 11, 2014, 20:31:17
We trialled tablets 2 years ago for our DP2 course...to mixed reviews...
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on January 11, 2014, 20:36:24
We trialled tablets 2 years ago for our DP2 course...to mixed reviews...

I have seen issued blackberry playbooks; however, they ran into major problems because they tried to install Windows XP onto them and make them run on the DWAN like a normal laptop.... classic DND trying to fit a square into a circle ;)

I know some people also didn't like them because.... they *cough* didn't know or want to learn how *cough* to use them.  We tend to be about 10 years behind industry in adopting new practices like this so I expect will have the whole tablet thing sorted out by about 2025.... just about when I am ready to pull pin ;)
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Hamish Seggie on January 11, 2014, 23:31:29
I have seen issued blackberry playbooks; however, they ran into major problems because they tried to install Windows XP onto them and make them run on the DWAN like a normal laptop.... classic DND trying to fit a square into a circle ;)

I know some people also didn't like them because.... they *cough* didn't know or want to learn how *cough* to use them.  We tend to be about 10 years behind industry in adopting new practices like this so I expect will have the whole tablet thing sorted out by about 2025.... just about when I am ready to pull pin ;)

By 2025 we'll have implants in our heads that will down load whatever "the man" wants you to have.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on January 11, 2014, 23:40:47
By 2025 we'll have implants in our heads that will down load whatever "the man" wants you to have.

"You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill – you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."

;)
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: NFLD Sapper on January 11, 2014, 23:50:43
I have seen issued blackberry playbooks; however, they ran into major problems because they tried to install Windows XP onto them and make them run on the DWAN like a normal laptop.... classic DND trying to fit a square into a circle ;)

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Old EO Tech on January 12, 2014, 01:48:52
I have seen issued blackberry playbooks; however, they ran into major problems because they tried to install Windows XP onto them and make them run on the DWAN like a normal laptop.... classic DND trying to fit a square into a circle ;)

I know some people also didn't like them because.... they *cough* didn't know or want to learn how *cough* to use them.  We tend to be about 10 years behind industry in adopting new practices like this so I expect will have the whole tablet thing sorted out by about 2025.... just about when I am ready to pull pin ;)

RD, that seems pretty outlandish considering the Playbook runs on an arm processor so only Windows RT would have a chance of running on it, and RT is so unpopular that MS is discontinuing them.  All DND/GOC would have to do is buy the 4G version of the Playbook and treat it just like a BB phone without the calling features.

Jon
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Pre-flight on January 12, 2014, 10:31:41
RD, that seems pretty outlandish considering the Playbook runs on an arm processor so only Windows RT would have a chance of running on it, and RT is so unpopular that MS is discontinuing them.  All DND/GOC would have to do is buy the 4G version of the Playbook and treat it just like a BB phone without the calling features.

Jon

BB is running on borrowed time at this point, and the Playbook is almost a year discontinued. I know that SSC is trialing BES 10 right now, as well as other 3rd party mobile manager software.

If I were a betting man I would say we'll see an end to the BB only policy within a couple of years as the ability to manage iOS and Android devices from an enterprise perspective is starting to be just as well developed as that for BB.

Once that happens you will see tablets, until then, anything you do see is just something a unit bought out of O&M without proper approval.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Old EO Tech on August 05, 2014, 02:43:43
BB is running on borrowed time at this point, and the Playbook is almost a year discontinued. I know that SSC is trialing BES 10 right now, as well as other 3rd party mobile manager software.

If I were a betting man I would say we'll see an end to the BB only policy within a couple of years as the ability to manage iOS and Android devices from an enterprise perspective is starting to be just as well developed as that for BB.

Once that happens you will see tablets, until then, anything you do see is just something a unit bought out of O&M without proper approval.

Well yes the Playbook is EoL but I still have one and it makes a fine ereader among other things.  But the demise of BB has been greatly exaggerated.  With BB10.3 coming out and BES 10/12 there is really no reason to not stay with the most secure system you can get, and the only one currently FIPS certified.  Most people have a bad taste with BB phones because DND buys the cheapest 5 year old curves that Rogers wants to off load on us :-/  My Z10 is as good as any iphone or android out their.  And if you want something closer to a tablet the Z30 is available.  And the new large business oriented BB Passport is about to hit the streets this fall.  And looks like a killer business phone.  But I'm sure some itoy loving exec at SSC will be pushing iphone6's soon and holding up a BBOS 6 curve as evidence :-/
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Pre-flight on August 05, 2014, 06:36:11
Well yes the Playbook is EoL but I still have one and it makes a fine ereader among other things.  But the demise of BB has been greatly exaggerated.  With BB10.3 coming out and BES 10/12 there is really no reason to not stay with the most secure system you can get, and the only one currently FIPS certified.  Most people have a bad taste with BB phones because DND buys the cheapest 5 year old curves that Rogers wants to off load on us :-/  My Z10 is as good as any iphone or android out their.  And if you want something closer to a tablet the Z30 is available.  And the new large business oriented BB Passport is about to hit the streets this fall.  And looks like a killer business phone.  But I'm sure some itoy loving exec at SSC will be pushing iphone6's soon and holding up a BBOS 6 curve as evidence :-/

Yes, given the 8 months since I made that post, it does seem that the current BB leadership is doing well, they've made the smart move of retreating from consumer products. They've lost the consumer market, at less than 3% they'll never have the critical mass to make more than a dent there. They are refocusing on business and enterprise customers. Essentially they're pulling an IBM move, which worked wonderfully for Big Blue.

Personally, from an IT standpoint, I really like BB. The phones have an incredibly robus and secure operating system (BB 10, derived from QNX) and it has a powerful management tool in BES.

That said, I'd never buy a blackberry phone as my personal phone, because all the cool new stuff comes out on iPhone and Android first.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Old EO Tech on August 05, 2014, 21:55:59
Yes, given the 8 months since I made that post, it does seem that the current BB leadership is doing well, they've made the smart move of retreating from consumer products. They've lost the consumer market, at less than 3% they'll never have the critical mass to make more than a dent there. They are refocusing on business and enterprise customers. Essentially they're pulling an IBM move, which worked wonderfully for Big Blue.

Personally, from an IT standpoint, I really like BB. The phones have an incredibly robus and secure operating system (BB 10, derived from QNX) and it has a powerful management tool in BES.

That said, I'd never buy a blackberry phone as my personal phone, because all the cool new stuff comes out on iPhone and Android first.

Well you can run 95% of android apps on BB10 phones, only ones that require google services can't be run without some hacking.  I much prefer the swiping interface of BB10 to the home button centric iOS, but to each his own.

Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Pre-flight on August 08, 2014, 10:44:44
Well you can run 95% of android apps on BB10 phones, only ones that require google services can't be run without some hacking.  I much prefer the swiping interface of BB10 to the home button centric iOS, but to each his own.

Yes BB10 can now run Android apps, and yes the OS is a better system, and yes, the hardware is superior to alot of android phones, and no, it won't make a difference and BlackBerry's market share of the consumer market will continue to fade.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: Old EO Tech on August 12, 2014, 23:34:19
Yes BB10 can now run Android apps, and yes the OS is a better system, and yes, the hardware is superior to alot of android phones, and no, it won't make a difference and BlackBerry's market share of the consumer market will continue to fade.

Well John Chen is certainly more concerned about making money of corporate/government software side of the business.  Saying that BB will fade from the consumer market would depend on what market you are taking about, yes they are already dead in the US and fading in the G8 countries.  But we have yet to see what the impact of the Z3 will have on the bottom line especially in the Asiapacific, middle east and africa, were that phone is doing very well so far.  BB has even started up a new run of the Bold 9900 as many people still want that in countries that still have data per mb based plans were the compression of OS7.1/BES 5 saves a lot of money.  In the end BB doesn't need to push Apple or Android out of the top sales tier to be a profitable company, they just need to find their niche and be the best at it.  I'm personally looking forward to see how the public/business greets the square BB Passport, it has impressive specs and a top notch keyboard, but it's not your normal rectangle of glass.  But looks great for editing docs on a phone.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: c_canuk on April 15, 2015, 13:42:20
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/12/31/blackberry-sony-hack_n_6400640.html

Sony executives switched back to blackberry after being hacked.

"BlackBerrys are back in vogue — at least at Sony Pictures Entertainment. Executives dusted off the once-cutting edge smartphones following a well-publicized cyberattack, according to several reports.

The Wall Street Journal and New York Times report that Sony staff hauled out old BlackBerrys from a basement storage room post-hack, trusting the smartphones because they can send and receive emails through their own servers.

Sony was forced to shut down its computer systems and landlines after hackers infiltrated their network. Staff reverted to using the old BlackBerrys, Gmail accounts and notepads. The payroll department even dug up old machines to issue physical cheques instead of using e-transfer to pay out salaries.


 

A group called the "Guardians of Peace" took credit for the Sony hack over the U.S. Thanksgiving weekend. Hackers stole internal data, exposing employees’ private information and private company memos including humiliating and sometimes racist emails. The hack disrupted the release of Sony's movie “The Interview,” a dark comedy about the assassination of North Korean leader Kim Jong-un. The FBI later concluded North Korea was responsible for the attack.

The company’s high-profile switch to BlackBerrys could be good news for the struggling Canadian tech company, which has tried to remain relevant in competitive smartphone market by boasting of its superior data security and business-oriented technology. Its newest phone, the BlackBerry Classic, was released just before Christmas and includes BBM Protected, a secure, encrypted way to message others within a company.

The company has had a busy year, releasing several new phones that return to its roots with a physical keyboard and other distinguishing features and has strengthened its position as an enterprise security company.

PC Magazine speculated that the hack might serve as a wake-up call to companies about the importance of security and that might benefit BlackBerry.

BlackBerry Ltd. shares have been rising since it released the new Classic phone on Dec. 17 and hover around $11 apiece on the NASDAQ.

However its third-quarter results, reported Dec. 19, fell short of analysts’ expectations. Revenue was $793 million for the three months ended Nov. 29. Analysts had predicted $900 million. It reported a net loss of $148 million that shrunk significantly from a loss of $4.4 billion in the year earlier period. "

Seems what us IT Pros have been saying about the switch over to Apple and Android being a stupid thing for Enterprises to do is being proved correct.
Title: Re: Tablets
Post by: GreenWood on April 15, 2015, 17:25:12
US Navy : First Navy recruits issued tablets at Great Lakes

Quote
For nearly 140 recruits at Recruit Training Command Great Lakes, Illinois, embarking on their eight-week odyssey to become sailors, April 7 was just another day of gear issue before training starts next week.

But with their seabags, these 137 sailors-in-training were handed tablet computers — a first in the Navy.

The smart device will be their constant companion throughout training at Great Lakes. And though they'll leave them behind when they graduate, this test program is expected to pave the way for the service to add a tablet fleetwide.

Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (AW/NAC) Mike Stevens and Rear Adm. Richard Brown, who heads Naval Service Training Command, helped hand out the tablets to the recruits.

"I really believe that in a few years, we'll look back at today as a watershed moment in the Navy," Stevens said in a phone interview April 7. "This isn't a nice to have item, as many believe. This is absolutely necessary to our Navy and our sailors in making them a more capable 21st century warfighter."

The "eSailor" effort was dreamed up by Stevens nearly two years ago as a way to improve sailors' access to computers and the Internet. This includes all the online sites and data centers the Navy requires sailors to access to manage their careers.

Eliminating the waiting lines to use a computer at sea is just one of the end goals. Taking training to the next level is another. Issuing tablets to sailors is still a ways away, as officials work through security issues and infrastructure changes, but Stevens says wider smart device usage on the job is only a matter of time .

"We simply can't afford not to move in this direction," he said. "There's still a lot of things to work out as we move ahead, but we'll manage those things as we go."

Still to be worked out at recruit training as well as "A" schools is the Wi-Fi access at ships and commands.

Smart devices are all over the Navy these days. Just take a walk around the weather decks of a Navy ship as it pulls in or out of port and you'll see sailors on their phones and tablets.

Other formal efforts to use tablets and Wi-Fi have sprung up around the fleet and even at "A" schools. The joint Explosive Ordnance Disposal School at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, is already stretching the technology in its advanced training and operations.

"All this has many already looking down the line and how we'll integrate these into "A" schools," Stevens said. "That's the next step, but we can't get ahead of ourselves, yet."

The types of tablets

At Great Lakes, the tests are focused on integrating the tablets into the training of recruits.

"We are looking at this as an extension of the classroom," said John Drake, head of NSTC's strategy and analysis division, who's overseeing the tests. "These first tests are really a test of concept and the the tablets being issued were picked based on the requirements we developed for what it needed to do."

A total of 200 small tablets were purchased.

Most recruits are being issued an off-the-shelf Acer Iconia Tab 8, an 8-inch tablet that comes with a protective case.

In addition, 50 MilSpec, 8-inch Getac T800 tablets were purchased.
AM1 Maureen Lydon and AM2 Robert Reynolds, both recruit

AM1 Maureen Lydon and AM2 Robert Reynolds, both recruit division commanders, go over features of the new tablets with Seaman Recruit Joseph Jacobus. (Photo: Scott A. Thornbloom/Navy)

"The current maintenance plan is to issue the Acer tablets first," Drake said. "As they break or are damaged, we'll replace them with the MILSPEC version."

"The goal is to see how the off-the-shelf version performs," Drake said. "We'll be seeing how they survive being dropped, carried and used regularly over the eight weeks."

Though Drake didn't offer up a unit cost, it's clear that the off-the-shelf tablets are the way to go, if they can survive the sailor test. The Iconia Tab 8 retails for about $150, compared to $1,500 for the more rugged Getac device.

Recruits will carry the Acer tablets in the cargo pocket of the trousers of their blue-and-gray Navy working uniform, Drake said. But the MilSpec version is slightly larger because of the built-in protection and may have to be carried in backpacks.

The recruit division commanders will also get tablets, in part to help train with them.

Along with the Windows 8.1 software, all documents and books normally issued to recruits have been loaded on the tablets, including their Trainee Guide — which tells them how to fold clothing and make their beds and other vital boot camp gouge. Also included is an electronic version of the venerable Bluejackets' Manual, which has been a main reference book since 1902.

"The Bluejacket's Manual is the only non-Navy owned content on the tablet," Drake said. "The [U.S.] Naval Institute ... worked with us to provide an electronic version."

In addition, two interactive games have been loaded. One is designed to teach sailors the perils of human trafficking. The other will teach recruits about information and computer security, Drake said.

Initially there will be no access to email or the Internet, Drake said. There are no plans to allow any kind of open Web surfing. But the recruits will be able to start accessing Wi-Fi in their barracks after the midway point of their eight-week training.

"They will have access to Navy.mil web

During the pilot, the tablets will cycle through three of the two-division cycles of recruits over the next six months.

If successful — and both Drake and Stevens believe it will be — the plan is to start early in fiscal year 2016 by expanding the tablets and Wi-Fi to one entire "ship," as barracks at RTC are called.

The 'ship" where the tests are taking place is the USS Grace Hopper, named in honor for one of the Navy's computer pioneers.

"It truly is coincidence that happened," Drake said. "But it wasn't lost on those here that we think she'd be quite pleased by the whole thing."

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/tech/2015/04/08/first-navy-recruits-issued-tablets-great-lakes/25452877/