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The Parade Square => Military Administration => Topic started by: Awesomedude on November 21, 2014, 13:19:02

Title: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Awesomedude on November 21, 2014, 13:19:02

Backstory: [REG force] Me and my wife broke down while out of town while on weekend leave. Informed the chain of command of the fact and now im being criticised for being out of area without a leave pass on a official evaluation.

I don't accept the critisism because I do not believe that is the policy. From what I gather from the leave manual:

A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
*       when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
*       when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
*       when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis.


Since none of those three apply, is their a canforgen that will either support me or screw me? I need to provide a case.


Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: DAA on November 21, 2014, 13:35:00
Backstory: [REG force] Me and my wife broke down while out of town while on weekend leave. Informed the chain of command of the fact and now im being criticised for being out of area without a leave pass on a official evaluation.

I don't accept the critisism because I do not believe that is the policy. From what I gather from the leave manual:

A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
*       when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
*       when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
*       when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis.


Since none of those three apply, is their a canforgen that will either support me or screw me? I need to provide a case.

Chances are, the requirement may very well be laid out in either Unit or local Base/Wing Standing Orders.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Awesomedude on November 21, 2014, 13:54:23
I didn't consider that. I will hit the books.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 21, 2014, 14:17:59
Chances are, the requirement may very well be laid out in either Unit or local Base/Wing Standing Orders.

Even after nearly 30 years associated with this outfit in one way or another, I still don't get this.

The Leave Policy Manual is the gospel on leave issues.

Where does a unit or Base/Wing gain the authority to create a requirement for a CF 100 Leave Pass over and above the instances cited by the policy manual?
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: DAA on November 21, 2014, 14:30:12
Even after nearly 30 years associated with this outfit in one way or another, I still don't get this.

The Leave Policy Manual is the gospel on leave issues.

Where does a unit or Base/Wing gain the authority to create a requirement for a CF 100 Leave Pass over and above the instances cited by the policy manual?

It's not so much as there being a requirement to use a CF100, it's more about being able to contact and or account for people, should the need arise.  I've been with many units and the requirements vary from location to location, depending on circumstances.  For the most part, CF100's are rarely used and units will create some form of accounting measure, be it a "sign out" book or locally produced "Weekend Leave Form" for instances when you will be outside the geo boundaries of your normal place of duty.

Personally, if I know I will be away for the weekend, I provide a quick email to my direct CoC....."Sir, I will be out of town this weekend but if need be, I can be reached as follows..........".

You don't want to find yourself in a position, where there is a serious illness/death in someones family and you are not able to contact the member because they decided to go away for the weekend and never left contact info.  Or a work related emergency arises and MCpl X is the only guy with keys/combinations to something you need immediate access to.  There are many different scenario's............
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: George Wallace on November 21, 2014, 14:40:46
Even after nearly 30 years associated with this outfit in one way or another, I still don't get this.

The Leave Policy Manual is the gospel on leave issues.

Where does a unit or Base/Wing gain the authority to create a requirement for a CF 100 Leave Pass over and above the instances cited by the policy manual?

He said he was outside of his "area".

I can see Base/Wing/Unit Orders for a Operational Unit that has a designated radius or area setup due to the necessity of Alert Recalls they do not want pers to travel outside of without a Lve Pass (as the OP clearly states they were outside of), being put into place.  The Leave Policy Manual is a guide; Black and White with no shades of gray.  As all Units/Organizations are not identical, it can not cover all instances, as just stated.   Units do have their own necessities that need to be governed by their Unit Orders and SOPs. [Edit to add]  A Lawful Command is still a Lawful Command.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 21, 2014, 15:11:15
In fairness, the OP said he was out of town, and the OP's CoC is the one saying "out of area".  I would be curious to hear more detail on this aspect of the story.

I don't dispute that there are people employed in jobs that require them to be contacted easily.  However, we're talking about the OP's CoC requirement for a leave pass, not the requirement to leave your boss your phone number.  If I'm in Ottawa, and taking a drive to Cornwall for the weekend, I'm still "in area"...and unless I know my boss might want to reach me, I'm not submitting a leave pass nor am I going to tell them where I'll be.  If that happened, and then they tried to reach me and couldn't, and subsequently tried to write me up for being out of area, they'd hear about it.  If the CoC wants me to be available on weekends, give me a BlackBerry and order me to have it with me at all times - but it still doesn't create a need for a CF 100.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on November 21, 2014, 15:20:51
He said he was outside of his "area".

I can see Base/Wing/Unit Orders for a Operational Unit that has a designated radius or area setup due to the necessity of Alert Recalls they do not want pers to travel outside of without a Lve Pass (as the OP clearly states they were outside of), being put into place.  The Leave Policy Manual is a guide; Black and White with no shades of gray.  As all Units/Organizations are not identical, it can not cover all instances, as just stated.   Units do have their own necessities that need to be governed by their Unit Orders and SOPs. [Edit to add]  A Lawful Command is still a Lawful Command.

Leftover kife from the old days when the military wanted to run your personal life also.........if I was still in Pet I could sure be 'reached' a lot faster now driving through Kingston with a cell phone then I could have been back in the 80"s going for a 'walk' to Black Bear Park with a girl, a blanket and some beer.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: George Wallace on November 21, 2014, 15:29:07
Leftover kife from the old days when the military wanted to run your personal life also.........if I was still in Pet I could sure be 'reached' a lot faster now driving through Kingston with a cell phone then I could have been back in the 80"s going for a 'walk' to Black Bear Park with a girl, a blanket and some beer.

If you were in Petawawa now, and enroute to Kingston, there are still areas of no Cell coverage. 

Back in the 80's there were often Duty NCO's who patrolled down to Black Bear Beach to check out the submarine races.  We had one who had to call Recovery at Zero Dark Thirty because he got the Regimental Van stuck in the sand........Can you say Career Cpl?   ;D
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Awesomedude on November 22, 2014, 15:06:03
In fairness, the OP said he was out of town, and the OP's CoC is the one saying "out of area".  I would be curious to hear more detail on this aspect of the story.

I don't dispute that there are people employed in jobs that require them to be contacted easily.  However, we're talking about the OP's CoC requirement for a leave pass, not the requirement to leave your boss your phone number.  If I'm in Ottawa, and taking a drive to Cornwall for the weekend, I'm still "in area"...and unless I know my boss might want to reach me, I'm not submitting a leave pass nor am I going to tell them where I'll be.  If that happened, and then they tried to reach me and couldn't, and subsequently tried to write me up for being out of area, they'd hear about it.  If the CoC wants me to be available on weekends, give me a BlackBerry and order me to have it with me at all times - but it still doesn't create a need for a CF 100.

So more details...

I realize that alot of you older army guys are going to tell me to pound salt. Its not even like im getting punished but I received a PER/PDR what ever it is specifically to point out im screwing up because of this incident. If this effects my career in anyway im going straight to a grievance.


Basically on the sunday, broke down. Mechanic was close friend of the family ish, called him at home explaining it was an emergency. He came out and it was a bad alternator bearing and it blew the belt that was on the same line as the power steering. He said i would need a new one, wouldn't be able to get it until the next day.

So now this is 4-5 ish at night, im stranded with my wife around 5 hours drive away.  I phone my Sgt informing him of the situation, I want to phone in an annual leave pass because their is always a blank one on file signed with blank date.

Sgt is mad but what is he going to do.

Car is not ready the next day. Chain of command will not entertain another annual. so I hop in a bus, phone chain of command and ask if there is anyone able to pick me up a hour before work starts because that's when its going to arrive. Get to work on time, show receipts. Wife drives home next day when car is ready. I think problem is gone.

A few later receive evaluation about how shitty my admin is and I need to get on top of that to excell at the next rank (that i need to follow the rules and that i could have been charged AWOL and i need to fill out weekend leave passes.) I asked the Sgt if HE had a weekend leave pass (he went to kingston that weekend) and was told im a smart *** and the policy dosn't apply to SRNCO's   

Back back back story, I have 8 years in and have never even had a sick day and its grinding my gears that they are giving me crap especially since im out 500+ dollars between the repairs and cabbing to the bus station and taking a bus home. Its not like im extending my vacation on the beach while flipping off the queen and doing body shots.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 22, 2014, 15:19:29
If there isn't a unit policy directing you to inform your CoC if you travel more than XXX kilometres from the unit, then personally I'd say you took every reasonable step to ensure your CoC was made aware of your delay in returning.

Precisely how did your Sgt word the incident on the PDR?
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Awesomedude on November 22, 2014, 15:38:03


Im not 100% but it was along the lines of member needs to take better care of his personal administration to advance to the next rank level

but it wasn't a normal quarterly PER it was a you screwed up heres your first warning PER,

Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 22, 2014, 15:45:37
I guess I was trying to find out if they were claiming you violated some regulation.  If that's the way it's worded, I'd ask what regulation it is, assuming you've looked for it and can't find it.

If they give you bafflegab and waffle on which regulation it is, it's your call as to whether you want to pursue the grievance or alternative dispute resolution route.  If someone is going to take the time to write up a subordinate, they'd better be able to cite chapter and verse as to why.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Awesomedude on November 22, 2014, 15:48:14


after i pour through the station SOP's on monday im defiantly going to challenge it. If they are going to be pricks im going to make them back it up
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: kratz on November 22, 2014, 15:51:09
Op,

Your backstory does not help.
There are current members on the site as well.

Based on your side of things, your unit is effectively using the administrative tools
available to inform you an caution you regarding your responsibilities as a member of the CAF.
Yet, you're ready to "grieve" something that if you take corrective action on over the next 4-5 months,
should have little to no bearing on your PER.

Yes, weekend passes are not normally required. Yes, you don't like your Sergeant's answer if he had one (your side of the story). Yes you are out money due to your job's obligations....

Here's the hurt.
After 8 years service, you know you've signed on to be on to be ready to be on duty whenever, wherever at all times.
You were not and you have received a "lover's kiss" punishment IMO.

I don't even have purple porpoise piss for your complaint.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 22, 2014, 15:54:37
So your car broke down on Sunday, didn't get fixed Monday and you didn't make it to to work that day.  You asked for Tuesday as well, got denied and was td to report on Tuesday.  Since then you've received an adverse PDR. Does that sum it up correctly?
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: PuckChaser on November 22, 2014, 16:00:04
I asked the Sgt if HE had a weekend leave pass (he went to kingston that weekend) and was told im a smart *** and the policy dosn't apply to SRNCO's   

You're lucky you just got a 5B PDR, I consider that borderline insubordinate.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 22, 2014, 16:06:06
I'd have summarized it as "Was out of area on weekend leave IAW CF Leave policy manual, car broke down.  Contacted Sgt in order to use 'emergency' leave form sitting under his desk blotter, pre-prepared for just this kind of reason. Sgt got bent and twisted for having to carry out his role as a supervisor, but granted leave for Monday.  Car was not able to be repaired Monday.  Informed Sgt.  Sgt denied another day's leave.  Took steps to arrive at normal place and time of duty for Tuesday.  Written up on a PDR for violation of some unspecified policy or regulation."

Does that accurately reflect the situation?

You're lucky you just got a 5B PDR, I consider that borderline insubordinate.

So "do as I say and not as I do" is still an acceptable principle of leadership?
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 22, 2014, 16:15:22
After 8 years service, you know you've signed on to be on to be ready to be on duty whenever, wherever at all times.

Sorry kratz, gonna have to disagree with you on this one.  If the above were true, you wouldn't be allowed to head home at the end of the work day or on weekends; everyone would live in shacks and you'd only see your spouse and family on occasions where you have taken annual leave.  COs create policy dictating normal working hours, and normally, what you do outside of those hours is completely up to you.  Sure there are situations and roles that require one to be within XXX km of work or within XX hours of reporting for duty, but those people are told very clearly and in no uncertain terms that they are subject to that policy.  It doesn't sound like the OP is one of those people.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: kratz on November 22, 2014, 16:20:39
Occam,
Great summary.

A point to be made, those "blank" leave passes are not legal,
thus highly subjective to the situation in which they are used.

If the Op had of called in with justification for the need of two+ days leave
(annual, short or any mix) it might have been approved too.

In the end, members are responsible for their actions.
As noted earlier, there is normally no requirement to have a weekend leave pass.
If the Op had of had one though, his concerns would have been solved.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 22, 2014, 16:44:03
Agreed, kratz...a properly authorized leave form could have prevented the situation, but since one isn't necessary...(that we're aware of at this point)

Stuff happens.  It gets dealt with as best as possible, and I think the OP did a reasonable job of doing so.

If I had a nickel for every time one of the guys on IR in Ottawa got stuck in Petawawa on the weekend because of a snowstorm or whatever, and couldn't make it in for Monday morning...and none of them ever got written up because of it.

edit:  text in yellow
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Fishbone Jones on November 22, 2014, 18:38:47
There was a time that we carried a "permanent leave pass". It was simply a card, issued by the unit, that had your name and superior's signature on one side and a simple map, showing the radius away from camp you could go without a formal leave pass.

Made things pretty simple. If you were going to be outside the radius, you needed to apply for a normal leave pass.

One other thing we used to do, if you weren't going to make it back because of breakdown, etc was to get the local police or post office to stamp your pass. Even better if there was a local reserve unit or recruiting centre that you could report to.

[sidetrack]
I once stopped in to see General Rad, in Wilno, on the way back to the base from my cottage. He broke out his homemade wine. I was cognizant of my intake because I still had to get to base. However, Rad was having a great time. He called the Unit DO and told him that the young Trooper who had stopped to see him was under orders not to leave until after breakfast the next day and that he would report for duty after lunch. Some people were not very happy and the RSM had a few quiet words for me, but in the end, there was nothing they could do. No harm, no foul ;D.
[/sidetrack]
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 22, 2014, 18:45:26
Lots of assumptions being made here on facts etc. 

Just because a mbr requests leave does not mean the COfC is obligate to authorize.  5 hours away from your place of duty without a leavr pass is quite far and reg force members are subj to recall at any time; we all know this.

The OP seems to indicate he was given an extra day to get back so where is the problem?  Other than people making assumptions he has been wronged by a lazy sgt and an
unsympathetic CofC.  The leave manual doesn't preclude people from having to be at their place of duty during normal duty hours after a weekend right?  No leave pass usually = absent without leave.

Requesting leave and having it approved are not necessarily joined at the hip. 


Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: NFLD Sapper on November 22, 2014, 18:49:19
Lots of assumptions being made here on facts etc. 

Just because a mbr requests leave does not mean the COfC is obligate to authorize.  5 hours away from your place of duty without a leavr pass is quite far and reg force members are subj to recall at any time; we all know this.

The OP seems to indicate he was given an extra day to get back so where is the problem?  Other than people making assumptions he has been wronged by a lazy sgt and Ina
sympathetic CofC.  The leave manual doesn't preclude people from having to be at their place of duty during notm duty hours after a weekend right?  No leave pass usually = absent without leave.

Requesting leave and having it approved are not necessarily joined at the hip.

Even approved leave is not guaranteed... I had Division try and pay out my leave to go on the Divisional EX this year until we (my CoC) pointed out that they can't go against TB rules.....
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: ballz on November 22, 2014, 19:00:07
If I had a nickel for every time one of the guys on IR in Ottawa got stuck in Petawawa on the weekend because of a snowstorm or whatever, and couldn't make it in for Monday morning...and none of them ever got written up because of it.

edit:  text in yellow

Generally, the CoC seems to be able to use discretion in these cases. However, this means that sometimes it uses it's discretion the other way. I don't know the OP, but I do know any time I've issued a 5b PDR, it was never because of one isolated incident, the member usually has it coming.

For the OP, you are more than entitled to grieve a 5b PDR. Remember though, a 5b PDR is not a punitive measure (punishment), it's a corrective measure to help facilitate a conversation. This PDR has probably been signed by your Sgt and maybe your Pl Comd. It will likely have absolutely no impact on you, and likely that no one else knows about it (or cares, for that matter). However, if you are grieving something that is just meant to tell you to "sharpen up" because maybe you've been a bit of an admin burden lately (again, I have no idea if this is the case), you will not only be bringing unwanted attention upon yourself from higher up's, but you'll be doing it in a way that shows you don't respond well to being told to correct something.

I issued a 5b PDR to a Master Corporal who thought he should have been a Sergeant. He was generally a pain in the rear, but he had a real bad performance that week, dismounting the LAV on an attack without his helmet on and a whole host of other stupid things (the kind of s**t you expect from a no-hook private until his 2IC kicks him in the nuts). I gave him a 5b PDR for it and he decided, instead of taking a good hard look in the mirror, to grieve it. I wished I could be a fly on the wall when the OC and the CSM spoke to him privately about his "Notice of Intent to Grieve" and why he thought it was wrong to expect so much of him. He did himself no favours, I'll tell you that much....
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: PuckChaser on November 22, 2014, 19:25:35
So "do as I say and not as I do" is still an acceptable principle of leadership?

No, but sarcastically questioning a superior's actions to justify your own is insubordinate and wrong as well.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: stellarpanther on November 22, 2014, 20:05:53
No, but sarcastically questioning a superior's actions to justify your own is insubordinate and wrong as well.

It may very well be borderline insubordination to sarcastically question a higher rank but if this Sgt sounds like a hypocrite to me.  Too many people in the military hide behind rank to get themselves out of properly dealing with subordinates.  I once had a Sgt that offered anyone $100 if they could show him a reference that shows mbr's need a leave pass to go out of the area.  A JAG officer once told me that even unit policy on the subject is questionable and not very enforceable.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: WinnieThePooh on November 22, 2014, 20:30:34
"Basically on the sunday, broke down. Mechanic was close friend of the family ish, called him at home explaining it was an emergency. He came out and it was a bad alternator bearing and it blew the belt that was on the same line as the power steering. He said i would need a new one, wouldn't be able to get it until the next day.

So now this is 4-5 ish at night, im stranded with my wife around 5 hours drive away.  I phone my Sgt informing him of the situation, I want to phone in an annual leave pass because their is always a blank one on file signed with blank date.
Sgt is mad but what is he going to do.

Car is not ready the next day. Chain of command will not entertain another annual."

Your "emergency" doesn't equate to military emergency. Most Units req X amount of days for planning purposes for leave passes. For example, if a soldier gave me a leave pass the day prior to an Ex and I had reasons to deny it, so be it, leave is not guaranteed. If you went the way of grievance because of your car, good luck...:)

As an aside, what would be your expectations of your grievance.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 22, 2014, 20:56:13
I'd have summarized it as "Was out of area on weekend leave IAW CF Leave policy manual, car broke down.  Contacted Sgt in order to use 'emergency' leave form sitting under his desk blotter, pre-prepared for just this kind of reason. Sgt got bent and twisted for having to carry out his role as a supervisor, but granted leave for Monday.  Car was not able to be repaired Monday.  Informed Sgt.  Sgt denied another day's leave.  Took steps to arrive at normal place and time of duty for Tuesday.  Written up on a PDR for violation of some unspecified policy or regulation."

Does that accurately reflect the situation?

So "do as I say and not as I do" is still an acceptable principle of leadership?

You're making the mistake of taking the info provided as complete and unbiased.

Again, just because there is an 'emergency leave pass' on file doesn't mean the CofC "shall approve it". 

You've determined "the Sgt" actually said this and assumed it as fact which we have no way to know.

Your summary is good, if you were acting as counsel to the accused.   ;D
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 22, 2014, 23:23:01
I haven't made any mistake.  I think the OP knows that if he's slanted the story, then the advice he's going to get won't be valid.

You're stating the obvious - of course there's no obligation for the CoC to grant the emergency leave.  However, according to the OP, the Sgt granted the one day of leave so that the OP didn't have to worry about making it to work for Monday morning.  If you're going to approve the short fuse leave, don't turn around and write the member up for not taking proper care of his personal admin.  He asked for the leave, you granted it, it's done with.  If you deny the leave, and the member doesn't make it to work on time for Monday morning, then we have a problem.  But granting the leave and then turning around and writing up the member?  Yeah, not spot on.  The OP did what he's supposed to do, which is keep the CoC informed.

And of course I've assumed the Sgt actually said this; have we any evidence to the contrary?

I don't know about you, but I'd feel morally bankrupt knowing I wrote up a subordinate for allegedly not submitting a leave form to travel out of area for the weekend, knowing full well that I didn't bother to submit one to do the same damn thing myself.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 22, 2014, 23:31:43
If you think someone's subordinate who is in hot water would never slant the story to their benefit...you must not have had that many subordinates when you were still in the mob.   ;D

I don't think the issue is that the mbr was where he was;  I'd hazard a guess that the real issue is the 'not able to make it back to place on duty' for Monday. 

Again, we don't know unit policies, mbr's svc history, anything like that.  I'm saying don't be too quick to judge based on unsubstantiated comments.  It might not serve the mbr well in the end.  His GSK isn't all that great to start with; he doesn't know the difference between a PDR and PER, as an example.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 23, 2014, 00:10:06
I'd also like to think that if I'm seeking opinion from complete strangers on an internet forum, it would behoove me to present the story as closely as possible to the truth so that I got relevant advice.   Now if I were simply grumbling and looking for people to commiserate with, I might be inclined to spin it more in my favour, but I don't see that in this case.

I'd tend to agree with you about what the real issue is here...but again, it goes back to the fact that the Sgt granted the extra day.  The whole "under the table leave form just for emergencies" was meant for exactly this type of situation (rightly or wrongly, as kratz has mentioned).  If you're going to grant the day of leave to deal with the situation, don't beat the member over the head with the form. 

And the PER/PDR confusion did not go unnoticed.  ;)
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Tcm621 on November 23, 2014, 01:09:59
There are few things to keep clear here:

1. No matter what anyone here thinks one should do, there is no requirement to put in a leave pass during a normal weekend day off. There is no requirement to even inform your CoC.

2. Notwithstanding the above, it is the mbrs responsibility to make it to work on time; and as such, to make reasonable preparations to do so.

3. The CAF, like any other employer, must understand that crap happens. A local policy should be in place to deal with any unforeseen circumstances. This could include the emergency leave pass.

If I am reading this situation correctly, the mbr headed on weekend travel IAW regulations. He made reasonable plans to make it to work on time. His car broke down and he contacted his CoC to deal with the issue as he was locally instructed. As far as that goes, he did nothing wrong. He appears to be to one attempting to make things work.

If there is a failure here, it rest with his CoC. The Sgt. could have explained at the get go that the mbr would have 1 day of leave approved and must be at work on Tuesday regardless of the status of the car. At that point, there is no confusion and if the mbr was not at work on Tuesday, he would have been awol. Otherwise, crap like this happens.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: George Wallace on November 23, 2014, 11:09:49
There are few things to keep clear here:

1. No matter what anyone here thinks one should do, there is no requirement to put in a leave pass during a normal weekend day off. There is no requirement to even inform your CoC.

2. Notwithstanding the above, it is the mbrs responsibility to make it to work on time; and as such, to make reasonable preparations to do so.

3. The CAF, like any other employer, must understand that crap happens. A local policy should be in place to deal with any unforeseen circumstances. This could include the emergency leave pass.

If I am reading this situation correctly, the mbr headed on weekend travel IAW regulations. He made reasonable plans to make it to work on time. His car broke down and he contacted his CoC to deal with the issue as he was locally instructed. As far as that goes, he did nothing wrong. He appears to be to one attempting to make things work.

If there is a failure here, it rest with his CoC. The Sgt. could have explained at the get go that the mbr would have 1 day of leave approved and must be at work on Tuesday regardless of the status of the car. At that point, there is no confusion and if the mbr was not at work on Tuesday, he would have been awol. Otherwise, crap like this happens.

OK.....It is now fair for all to assume that a quick trip to Vagas, Friday night and return on a Red-eye on Sunday night, without a Leave Pass, is legit.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 23, 2014, 11:16:29
OK.....It is now fair for all to assume that a quick trip to Vagas, Friday night and return on a Red-eye on Sunday night, without a Leave Pass, is legit.  Thanks.

I think you missed this earlier in the thread:

A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
*       when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
*       when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
*       when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis.

The OP quoted the exact passage from the Leave Policy manual.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Ditch on November 23, 2014, 11:20:23
There are few things to keep clear here:

1. No matter what anyone here thinks one should do, there is no requirement to put in a leave pass during a normal weekend day off. There is no requirement to even inform your CoC.

It is and has always been the CO's prerogative to instill tighter restrictions on the parent document (ie leave manual).  My RO's specifically state that if I decide to go outside of X kms from home station - I will submit a weekend leave pass.  This is a legal order - no more grey area - very much black and white.  Debate ended.  Why are we even debating this?
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 23, 2014, 11:29:49
It is and has always been the CO's prerogative to instill tighter restrictions on the parent document (ie leave manual).  My RO's specifically state that if I decide to go outside of X kms from home station - I will submit a weekend leave pass.  This is a legal order - no more grey area - very much black and white.  Debate ended.  Why are we even debating this?

Because in the absence of the tighter restrictions that may be imposed by certain units on certain personnel, the Leave Manual is the policy to be followed?

If the OP's unit/base hasn't directed that they need an approved CF 100 to proceed out of area on weekend leave, then they don't need to submit one.  Debate ended.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: George Wallace on November 23, 2014, 11:31:43
I think you missed this earlier in the thread:

The OP quoted the exact passage from the Leave Policy manual.

I think you missed my point.  Let's change Vagas to East or West Coast then.....Just for your viewing pleasure.

Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 23, 2014, 11:35:50
I think you missed my point.  Let's change Vagas to East or West Coast then.....Just for your viewing pleasure.

Nothing missed here. 

Hypothetical situation.  I'm an east coast sailor who decides to take a weekend jaunt to Esquimalt without a CF 100.  My unit/base has no requirement for a CF 100 for weekend leave, regardless of distance travelled. 

What charge are you going to lay against me?
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: George Wallace on November 23, 2014, 11:36:11
Because in the absence of the tighter restrictions that may be imposed by certain units on certain personnel, the Leave Manual is the policy to be followed?

If the OP's unit/base hasn't directed that they need an approved CF 100 to proceed out of area on weekend leave, then they don't need to submit one.  Debate ended.

If the OP is from a unit in Petawawa, then your point is moot.  All the units in Petawawa have those restrictions covered in their Unit Standing Orders, with clearly defined maps to show exactly where and where not to go.  As Ditch pointed out; "Why are we even debating this?" when it is "Barrackroom Lawyers" trying to find a loophole where none exists.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 23, 2014, 11:45:55
No, you're assuming that the OP is from Petawawa.  You're telling me that you've read the Standing Orders for every single unit in Pet?  Bored much?

Stop creating regulations where none may exist.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: PuckChaser on November 23, 2014, 12:13:22
No, you're assuming that the OP is from Petawawa.  You're telling me that you've read the Standing Orders for every single unit in Pet?  Bored much?

Stop creating regulations where none may exist.
And yet they plausibly very well may exist. The weekend leave pass outside a certain area is not a ridiculous request, and common in many units. The leave manual says a CO can grant up to 14 days compassionate, yet with one CO I got those 14, and another created a USO stating for the same reason I could only get 4.

Is a weekend leave pass and a 5B really someone's hill to die on? Is ordering someone to provide a weekend leave pass when leaving a certain area an unlawful command? Both answers should be no.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on November 23, 2014, 12:24:33
How about we all reel our penises in and wait to see if the OP has some more answers Monday night for us?
Thanks,
Bruce
army.ca staff
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: ballz on November 23, 2014, 12:41:59
I'd tend to agree with you about what the real issue is here...but again, it goes back to the fact that the Sgt granted the extra day.  The whole "under the table leave form just for emergencies" was meant for exactly this type of situation (rightly or wrongly, as kratz has mentioned).  If you're going to grant the day of leave to deal with the situation, don't beat the member over the head with the form. 

If I read correctly, the Sgt granted him the Monday and other than irritating his Sgt, I assume nothing was going to be done about it ("Sgt is mad but what is he going to do."). Then the member couldn't get his car fixed that Monday and requested to have the Tuesday off as well, which is probably what caused the problem. Then he made it the unit's problem by having someone from the unit come pick him up at the bus stop, etc.

So, they did not grant the leave day and then beat the member over it, they granted him one and then beat him over the head when he asked for another and asked for the unit to pick him up at the bus stop.

So now this is 4-5 ish at night, im stranded with my wife around 5 hours drive away.  I phone my Sgt informing him of the situation, I want to phone in an annual leave pass because their is always a blank one on file signed with blank date.

Sgt is mad but what is he going to do.

Car is not ready the next day. Chain of command will not entertain another annual. so I hop in a bus, phone chain of command and ask if there is anyone able to pick me up a hour before work starts because that's when its going to arrive. Get to work on time, show receipts. Wife drives home next day when car is ready. I think problem is gone.

A few later receive evaluation about how shitty my admin is...
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 23, 2014, 13:02:07
If I read correctly, the Sgt granted him the Monday and other than irritating his Sgt, I assume nothing was going to be done about it ("Sgt is mad but what is he going to do."). Then the member couldn't get his car fixed that Monday and requested to have the Tuesday off as well, which is probably what caused the problem. Then he made it the unit's problem by having someone from the unit come pick him up at the bus stop, etc.

So, they did not grant the leave day and then beat the member over it, they granted him one and then beat him over the head when he asked for another and asked for the unit to pick him up at the bus stop.

"Sarge, can I have Tuesday off as well?  The car still isn't fixed yet."
"Denied".
"Okay, I'll get the bus back.  Can you ask one of the boys if they can swing by the bus/train/whatever station on the way into work Tuesday morning to pick me up?"
"No.  Take a taxi."
"Roger out".

Wow.  Certainly made the 20 minutes to type up the PDR worthwhile to let Bloggins know that he's being a burden administratively.

Okay, I'll wait to hear if the OP finds something in their local orders and directives before posting further.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 23, 2014, 13:07:37
The "Sgt" isn't the one who would auth the leave.  I could recommend but not approve when I was a SNCO.

Also, no one has thought to ask why the Sgt was annoyed.  Could be the OP has a past of 'fast balls'.  If I was say, the Tn Sgt and had only 1 driver who was qualified on a certain piece of equipment for a week, and that MSE Op Cpl "broke down" 5 hours from home and I had to recall someone in from leave or course or whatever, I'd be pissed off too.  Doesn't mean the Sgt is 'a bad NCO/leader'.

I said early, lots of assumptions being made on a (IMO) biased input; that being the mbr who is facing the adverse PER.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: ModlrMike on November 23, 2014, 13:55:38
Having read this from the start, I have a few observations:

1. While you don't need a leave pass to travel on normal time off, most units have a geographic boundaries policy for just such an issue as this. Perhaps in the future if the member decides to leave town he'll submit a weekend leave pass. Some units still make use of a weekend sign-out book, but that's steadily going by the wayside.

2. You can't approve leave after it has been expended. If you do, it's fraud; I would not sign it. Better the member takes care to fill out a weekend leave pass before they depart.

3. If, as the member claims he was told "the rules don't apply to SNCOs", or words to that effect, then that's a colossal failure of leadership.

4. That the member did what was asked of them following an emergency, should be enough. Unless the member has a consistent pattern of behavior, it's also a failure of leadership to give them an adverse PDR for a single transgression such as this. Other issues perhaps warrant more direct correction. I think there is some commendation to be made to the member here for having the contact numbers to hand. What if he didn't?

5. There's a learning opportunity here for the chain of command, if they choose to recognize it.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: ballz on November 23, 2014, 14:43:29
"Sarge, can I have Tuesday off as well?  The car still isn't fixed yet."
"Denied".
"Okay, I'll get the bus back.  Can you ask one of the boys if they can swing by the bus/train/whatever station on the way into work Tuesday morning to pick me up?"
"No.  Take a taxi."
"Roger out".

Wow.  Certainly made the 20 minutes to type up the PDR worthwhile to let Bloggins know that he's being a burden administratively.

You're very focussed on this one occurrence not being a big deal, but you don't know how many times this member has found himself in similar predicaments that become the CoC's problem. The old "but Sgt, I just need a little exception made this one time..." stuff becomes old real quick when it's not just "this one time." The 20 minutes will be well worth it if the member continues to be a burden and the CoC decides to put him on IC and they need some sort of documentation to support an IC for another "just this one time" occurrence.  Like I said,

Generally, the CoC seems to be able to use discretion in these cases. However, this means that sometimes it uses it's discretion the other way. I don't know the OP, but I do know any time I've issued a 5b PDR, it was never because of one isolated incident, the member usually has it coming.

But please, carry on undermining another CoC's decision and encouraging this lad to feel like he's been wronged when you have no idea what the actual situation is. When he does something foolish and grieves a 5b PDR, and shows his CoC that he is too stubborn to smarten up, he'll be able to thank and and all of those around him who failed to support the CoC in correcting his behaviour.

I think there is some commendation to be made to the member here for having the contact numbers to hand. What if he didn't?

Really? A pat-on-the-back for being able to contact his CoC? Is that how low we're setting the bar now for initiative on the member's part? If he didn't, he'd be charged for being AWOL, with *maybe* some lenience since he is a Pte(T) and *if* he has no past history.

Certainly no pat-on-the-backs required for having that little tiny bit of initiative required to have your Sect 2IC or Sect Comd's phone number saved in your cell phone.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: rocksteady on November 24, 2014, 23:51:45
Someone show me the policy that states you must pickup your phone?  Or the one that says you must have a phone?  Or the one that says you must provide your phone number if you do have a phone?

The military often sticks their nose too far into people's private lives.  I can understand if you are say "on call" like for example a SAR Tech than you would be obligated to be reachable by phone or if they gave you a blackberry for that express purpose.   But if you are just away for the weekend or on leave than I don't see where it says you are obligated to be reachable by phone.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: ModlrMike on November 25, 2014, 00:35:06
Someone show me the policy that states you must pickup your phone?  Or the one that says you must have a phone?  Or the one that says you must provide your phone number if you do have a phone?

The military often sticks their nose too far into people's private lives.  I can understand if you are say "on call" like for example a SAR Tech than you would be obligated to be reachable by phone or if they gave you a blackberry for that express purpose.   But if you are just away for the weekend or on leave than I don't see where it says you are obligated to be reachable by phone.

Considering that members are liable for recall from leave (QR&O 16.01), and the CF100 contains a box for a telephone number, I would infer an obligation to provide a telephone number of some sort. Having provided said number, there might be an obligation to answer it when it rings.

Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 25, 2014, 04:29:45
Considering that members are liable for recall from leave (QR&O 16.01), and the CF100 contains a box for a telephone number, I would infer an obligation to provide a telephone number of some sort. Having provided said number, there might be an obligation to answer it when it rings.

QR&O 16.01 deals with withholding and recall from leave, though.  When you go home at the end of the day at 1600 until you report for work at 0800 the next day (or whatever your CO determines your regular hours of work are), you're not on leave.  You're also not on leave when you pack it in on Friday afternoon at 1600 until you report for work at 0800 on Monday (note there is no type of leave designated as "Weekend" when not used in conjunction with another type of leave reckoned in days, according to the leave manual).

Unless you're in one of those positions where you're explicitly told that you're on X hours notice for recall and must either be reachable by phone, or check in with your unit periodically to ensure no recall exists (the MARLANTORD dealing with Ready Duty Ship comes to mind), under what obligation is a member to answer the phone during silent hours during the week or over a weekend?
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: rocksteady on November 25, 2014, 05:52:05
Considering that members are liable for recall from leave (QR&O 16.01), and the CF100 contains a box for a telephone number, I would infer an obligation to provide a telephone number of some sort. Having provided said number, there might be an obligation to answer it when it rings.

No disrespect but "inferring an obligation and "might be an obligation" doesn't sound like an obligation to provide a telephone number.  I would infer you don't have to provide a phone number as there is nothing stating you do.  The CF100 also contains a box for an address but I have often said "Touring xxxcountry" without any address.  I suppose you could put your personal cellphone number but if you are in a foreign country you may not even have your phone with you.  Furthermore, even if you do provide the phone number there is nothing stating you must answer your phone.  The QR & O simply states you are liable for recall.  Not your fault if you can't be reached and there is nothing written to my knowledge that states you must answer your phone much less provide your phone number or even own a phone for that matter.

I think what happens in the military is that people get use to doing things for so long that no one questions why things are done and whether it is actually a requirement or just a long standing practice.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: George Wallace on November 25, 2014, 09:27:46
I think what happens in the military is that people get use to doing things for so long that no one questions why things are done and whether it is actually a requirement or just a long standing practice.

I am sure many of us are the type that when told to not put our hand on the hot burner plate, we really don't have to have a long drawn out dissertation as to why?  However, many new members today do have to have a long graphic wiz-bang .ppt to explain why one does not put their hand on a hot burner plate.  Times really have changed.   
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: PMedMoe on November 25, 2014, 10:30:11
I think what happens in the military is that people get use to doing things for so long that no one questions why things are done and whether it is actually a requirement or just a long standing practice.

And given your posting history, I'd take anything you think with a large grain of salt.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 25, 2014, 10:40:39
I am sure many of us are the type that when told to not put our hand on the hot burner plate, we really don't have to have a long drawn out dissertation as to why?  However, many new members today do have to have a long graphic wiz-bang .ppt to explain why one does not put their hand on a hot burner plate.  Times really have changed.

That would be a valid observation, if the discussion was about hot burner plates.  It's not.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: ModlrMike on November 25, 2014, 11:25:49
No disrespect but "inferring an obligation and "might be an obligation" doesn't sound like an obligation to provide a telephone number.  I would infer you don't have to provide a phone number as there is nothing stating you do.  The CF100 also contains a box for an address but I have often said "Touring xxxcountry" without any address.  I suppose you could put your personal cellphone number but if you are in a foreign country you may not even have your phone with you.  Furthermore, even if you do provide the phone number there is nothing stating you must answer your phone.  The QR & O simply states you are liable for recall.  Not your fault if you can't be reached and there is nothing written to my knowledge that states you must answer your phone much less provide your phone number or even own a phone for that matter.

I think what happens in the military is that people get use to doing things for so long that no one questions why things are done and whether it is actually a requirement or just a long standing practice.


I guess some people just have a higher sense of duty.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: George Wallace on November 25, 2014, 11:29:50
That would be a valid observation, if the discussion was about hot burner plates.  It's not.

It is a valid observation if persons, such as the person I replied to, are needing detailed explanations on matters that have been carried out for years in a systematic way to maintain the efficient functioning of military units/organizations according to SOPs and Unit Orders that have been specifically set out for those units/organizations.  Just because a young soldier CAN NOT accept being told to do something without out a detailed explanation as to why they must do something, does not make it unacceptable to be told to do it.   

Would we have to explain to soldiers like rocksteady why they have to inhale and then exhale?  We have been inhaling oxygen and exhaling oxygen and carbon dioxide since the dawn of time.   Just because there are no instructions on how to breath, does not mean that one would not do it unless their superior explained it all to them. 


But ....what the hay.....I got suckered into this once again.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on November 25, 2014, 11:45:42

I guess some people just have a higher sense of duty.

I'm going to go against my normal flow and agree with 'Rocksteady'...................I have a higher sense of duty, it's called My Family.  If I'm just Joe Average, and don't have some form of readiness imposed on my unit, then I'm off and enjoying time away from work.   If something large enough to warrant a needed callback happened, I'm pretty damn sure it would make the news, and then I'd expect callbacks.
If you're not going to issue me a Govt. cell phone then don't expect you're always going to get an answer..........if I even have a cell phone.

Leave the 80's in the 80's folks..............sometimes they weren't all that damn good.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Tcm621 on November 25, 2014, 12:01:20

I guess some people just have a higher sense of duty.
The question isn't one of will you pick up the phone, it is are you required to. In other words, if you are on weekend leave and you head into the woods for two day without a cell phone, will you get in trouble?

This is part of a larger issue. There are certain things people think are requirements because "things have always been that way" but there isn't necessarily any basis for it. 15 years ago, one had to go to the unit library or the orderly room to ask for access to the leave policy manual, now I can access it from my phone or computer in minutes. This complete and immediate access to information means people will question assertions of fact based on habit or tradition.  Leaders today have a requirement, even more so than before, to be fully read up on policy and seek clarification when issues arise.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 25, 2014, 12:23:24
Bruce gets it.

It's called "job creep".  I'm not talking about personnel who might justifiably be called in due to the unique nature of their job, such as SAR Techs, pilots, etc.  This is about the normal rank and file.

You're a 8-4 worker in Ottawa.  You have meetings outside your normal place of work, keeping you away from your desk.  Your boss wants you to get a BlackBerry so that you can be accessible while you're outside of the office at other work locations.  Then, when you're at home at 2000, your BlackBerry buzzes and it's an e-mail from Esquimalt.  They need authorization for something.  You figure "what the heck", and send the 30 second reply.  It happens again the next night.  This time you ignore it, figuring you can deal with it in the morning.  The next morning, there's an irate superior wanting to know why you sent a response the night before, but ignored it the previous night - and they know you read it because they got a read receipt on the e-mail.  The next thing you know, you're responding to e-mails during your off time simply because it's expected of you.  Your wife wonders why you always have your nose pointed at the BlackBerry, when you're sitting at home in the evening or on weekends.

One thing I've learned since I got out and started working for the PS, is that seldom does something require a silent hours response for the vast majority of us.  If I manage a part that's required to enable a ship to sail, then there's someone at an IOR cell who has the authority to issue on my behalf and they let me know about it the next day.  I take my work laptop home with me when I take more than a day or two of leave, but that's my personal preference because I don't like coming back to work and facing 300 e-mails in the queue.  I'd rather check in once and a while during my vacation and put out fires as they happen.  A lot of people aren't like that, though, and when they're out of the office, the BlackBerry gets shut off and they're not picking up their home phone - and you cannot fault them for that. 
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: PMedMoe on November 25, 2014, 12:30:47
It's called "job creep".  I'm not talking about personnel who might justifiably be called in due to the unique nature of their job, such as SAR Techs, pilots, etc.  This is about the normal rank and file.

Okay, I'll give you that.  For example, when I was in Kingston, our CO decided that PMed needed to be on call over the Christmas holidays.  We each took the phone for one week and it was only on from 0800-1600 and not at all on stat holidays.  Same with the CBAP (compressed breathing air) phone we used to have in Toronto.  Unless we knew there was a analysis result that was needed right away, we didn't pay much attention to the phone.  Never did turn it off, but the amount of spam/telemarketer calls we got was amazing.

However, for example: if one knows that there might be a recall, or if they might be a replacement for a duty, then it would make sense that they might be required to answer a phone call on evenings or the weekend.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: ModlrMike on November 25, 2014, 12:55:55
I'm going to go against my normal flow and agree with 'Rocksteady'...................I have a higher sense of duty, it's called My Family.  If I'm just Joe Average, and don't have some form of readiness imposed on my unit, then I'm off and enjoying time away from work.   If something large enough to warrant a needed callback happened, I'm pretty damn sure it would make the news, and then I'd expect callbacks.
If you're not going to issue me a Govt. cell phone then don't expect you're always going to get an answer..........if I even have a cell phone.

Leave the 80's in the 80's folks..............sometimes they weren't all that damn good.

I'm not going to disagree with you Bruce, except to say that you probably also don't disappear like a puff of smoke at the end of the day.

Anyhow, this is starting to derail the thread.

I still think that given the information we have, the member did what was expected. There's no need to beat him over the head with it.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Occam on November 25, 2014, 13:55:31
However, for example: if one knows that there might be a recall, or if they might be a replacement for a duty, then it would make sense that they might be required to answer a phone call on evenings or the weekend.

Agreed.  Normally people in those situations know they're in those situations, and don't have an excuse for not answering the phone.

My earlier comments in the thread were specifically concerning the majority of pers who aren't subject to recall for whatever reason, though.  I did an informal look around for standing orders, and in the Navy, Ship's Standing Orders, CFNES and CFNOS SO do not have a requirement for pers to submit a CF100 for weekend leave out of area.  Only the Ready Duty Ship is subject to specific recall measures.  I wanted to find some standing orders belonging to Army units, but couldn't find any - and I'm pretty adept at finding things on the DWAN.  Are they kept under lock and key?    ;)

You can't expect your troops to be familiar with all the orders they're subject to if they can't easily find them.

I still think that given the information we have, the member did what was expected. There's no need to beat him over the head with it.

Agreed wholeheartedly.
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: George Wallace on November 25, 2014, 15:07:46
QR&O 16.01 deals with withholding and recall from leave, though.  When you go home at the end of the day at 1600 until you report for work at 0800 the next day (or whatever your CO determines your regular hours of work are), you're not on leave.  You're also not on leave when you pack it in on Friday afternoon at 1600 until you report for work at 0800 on Monday (note there is no type of leave designated as "Weekend" when not used in conjunction with another type of leave reckoned in days, according to the leave manual).

Unless you're in one of those positions where you're explicitly told that you're on X hours notice for recall and must either be reachable by phone, or check in with your unit periodically to ensure no recall exists (the MARLANTORD dealing with Ready Duty Ship comes to mind), under what obligation is a member to answer the phone during silent hours during the week or over a weekend?

I will just stick to what you said here.  Commons Sense is not so common.  The OP knew they were outside of their Unit area.  They asked for and got one days Leave to sort out their predicament; which should have meant that they were given 24 extra hours to get home and be able to return to work -- NOT take more time off away from the job. 
Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: PMedMoe on November 25, 2014, 15:14:12
I will just stick to what you said here.  Commons Sense is not so common.  The OP knew they were outside of their Unit area.  They asked for and got one days Leave to sort out their predicament; which should have meant that they were given 24 extra hours to get home and be able to return to work -- NOT take more time off away from the job.

The member attempted to rectify their problem and were unable to in the one day.  They contacted their CoC.  If there was no necessity for them to be at work and if they had the annual leave, then the Sgt was just being a complete douche, IMO.  I know for me, if it were a member I'd never had a problem with, the response is a no-brainer.  If it were someone I had reason to doubt, that would be a different story.

And out of the unit area, does not equal out of the geographic area.

What if I went on leave to a place that only had one flight a day and on my last day there, a weather system moved into place that prevented planes from landing and/or taking off?  What am I supposed to do then?  Walk home?  Swim home?  And do I get written up on my PDR for not being able to control the weather?

I'm sure glad some of you aren't my boss..... ::)

Title: Re: Travelling while on weekend leave.
Post by: Loachman on November 25, 2014, 16:30:29
The member attempted to rectify their problem and were unable to in the one day.  They contacted their CoC.  If there was no necessity for them to be at work and if they had the annual leave, then the Sgt was just being a complete douche, IMO.

I concur.

Most people in the CF are adults. There is no reason or excuse to treat them otherwise.

Supervisors who act as dickheads benefit neither themselves nor their subordinates (other than as examples of how not to behave in such positions) - or the CF at large.
Title: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Jarnhamar on May 26, 2018, 19:12:29
Off topic sorry.

Regarding leave passes do I need a leave pass to travel "outside of area"?
Can units arbitrarily decide that members need a leave pass to travel further than X kms on weekend leave or something to that effect?
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 26, 2018, 22:07:24
Off topic sorry.

Regarding leave passes do I need a leave pass to travel "outside of area"?
Can units arbitrarily decide that members need a leave pass to travel further than X kms on weekend leave or something to that effect?

There's a few different opinions out there on if a CO can make a leave policy more restrictive than the CAF one.  I say "they can as long as people are willing to follow it...".  I don't know if it would stand up to review or not.  I've seen more restrictive 'stuff' end up in our Sqn orders, only to be redacted in full and replaced with the part below, with a line stating 'people are encouraged to let their CofC know if they are leaving their residence on weekends' or something to that effect. 

What is the official CAF policy?

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
•when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
•when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
•when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis. 

Approval Authority

The Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual is issued under the authority of the Chief Military Personnel (CMP).
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Simian Turner on May 26, 2018, 22:49:03
The more important policy for a weekend leave outside the local area is QR&O 16.01 http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page:

16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE
(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:

because of imperative military requirements; and
when the member's commanding officer personally directs the member's return to duty.

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled.

It is for this reason that Bases normally state a leave policy that is associated with a map showing boundaries. For coverage for injuries and subsequent VAC benefits you want to be officially be on leave, if while you are returning to unit/Base when recalled by the CO and you get into a car accident it is an injury that occurred while on duty.  Without the leave pass showing your intended location/destination then it is expected that you are at home (the place from which you are recalled) and not camping in the woods off the beaten path (the place you forgot to get a leave pass to serve as evidence that this was your intent).

In addition to the CF 100 having information on how to acquire health services while on leave it also helps to document your status, if you are on official leave and you require hospitalization then the leave shall terminate on the day prior to the date of admission (for accounting purposes).
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: SupersonicMax on May 27, 2018, 00:27:29
I call BS.  Because you don't have a leave pass doesn't mean you are not on leave.  This is clearly spelled out in the Leave Manual.  The only thing weekend leave passes do is increase the administrative burden on the member, the CoC and the admin staff.  Give your cell number to your CoC.  If something urgent happens, you'll know through a text or phone call.
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Simian Turner on May 27, 2018, 00:42:49
I call BS.  Because you don't have a leave pass doesn't mean you are not on leave.  This is clearly spelled out in the Leave Manual.  The only thing weekend leave passes do is increase the administrative burden on the member, the CoC and the admin staff.  Give your cell number to your CoC.  If something urgent happens, you'll know through a text or phone call.

Not sure what you are getting at: with Monitor Mass there is no admin burden. :not-again:  Stating your location clearly on a leave pass will pay dividends when things go wrong.  If the chain of command does not know where you are then it is hard for them to inform the CO who is readily available to call or text when something requires an urgent response.  The old weekend sign out books do not serve as evidence.
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: SupersonicMax on May 27, 2018, 01:16:04
Not sure what you are getting at: with Monitor Mass there is no admin burden. :not-again:

You still need to create a leave pass (10 minutes), get it signed by your supervisor (5 minutes) and get the OR to enter the leave pass in HMRS (5 minutes). That's 20 minutes per person.  Times a unit of 250 people, that's 5000 minutes or 83 hrs of work to do something that is redundant because the CF leave manual already covers you.  Everybody probably travels out of area 5-6 times a year on a weekend, thats 500 man hours.  Average your unit's salary at $50 per hours (including benefits), that's $25,000 per year just to have a process that is entirely redundant with no added value.  Want to know where your peeps are?  Ask them to send you an email if they plan on going out of area. That'll take 1 minute.   Personally, given the unlikelihood of an immediate recall (unless you are on 48 hrs NTM or less), I don't bother. If something happens that requires me to reach them immediately, I'll try to reach them the best I can.  Otherwise, they'll show up Monday.  I try to stay out of people's personnal lives as much as possible. 
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: MARS on May 27, 2018, 01:36:43
If something happens that requires me to reach them immediately, I'll try to reach them the best I can.  Otherwise, they'll show up Monday.  I try to stay out of people's personnal lives as much as possible.

Fair enough.  I am working at a U.S. Command, and their accountability requirements are far more stringent than ours, but I had a subordinate at the scene of the Las Vegas shooting last year.  Knowing that dude was there meant I reached out to him, before anyone else in my recall list - calling back to his CoC was not at all on his list of calls he made in the immediate aftermath - and the fact that he was safe and uninjured was able to be transmitted up the chain quickly.  The Commander was looking for 100% accountability in the aftermath, and quickly.  Waiting for them to 'show up Monday' wasn't an option available to me.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: SupersonicMax on May 27, 2018, 01:46:41
I care about my people however, it would not change anything to the situation at hand whether I knew something happened immediately after it happened or 1-2 days later. If I know an individual is around an emergency scene (amd generally, I am interested enough in their well-being to ask them what their plans are for weekends, just not in a formal way), I'll give the person a shout on his cell.

In your example, the person very well could have been unreachable for quite some time, even if he/she had been uninjured.  And then what?  Call every (likely overworked) morgue and hospital to find out if buddy is ok?  Easy answer?  Mass text your subbordinates for an ackowledgement (explaining why you are disturbing their weekends...). Call/investigate those that don't answer.

In any case, in our system, a leave pass is not the answer to track your people's whereabouts.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Jarnhamar on May 27, 2018, 09:22:41
Pretty interesting info.

I've always questioned needing a leave pass to leave the local area. When I'd enquire what the local area was an NCOs would more times than not seem to make something up off the top of their head.

"you won't be covered (medically) if you get into an accident and don't have a leave pass"

Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: mariomike on May 27, 2018, 09:41:50
"you won't be covered (medically) if you get into an accident and don't have a leave pass"

For reference to the discussion,

Not Covered On "Off Duty" Travel?
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=41292.0
2 pages

Not being covered if no leave pass 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=126325.0

Leave Pass 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=35112.0

CF 100
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=93209.0
2 pages

Leave Policy – Weekends
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=28634.150
11 pages.

etc...
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Simian Turner on May 27, 2018, 13:17:36
You still need to create a leave pass (10 minutes), get it signed by your supervisor (5 minutes) and get the OR to enter the leave pass in HMRS (5 minutes). That's 20 minutes per person.  Times a unit of 250 people, that's 5000 minutes or 83 hrs of work to do something that is redundant because the CF leave manual already covers you.  Everybody probably travels out of area 5-6 times a year on a weekend, thats 500 man hours.  Average your unit's salary at $50 per hours (including benefits), that's $25,000 per year just to have a process that is entirely redundant with no added value.  Want to know where your peeps are?  Ask them to send you an email if they plan on going out of area. That'll take 1 minute.   Personally, given the unlikelihood of an immediate recall (unless you are on 48 hrs NTM or less), I don't bother. If something happens that requires me to reach them immediately, I'll try to reach them the best I can.  Otherwise, they'll show up Monday.  I try to stay out of people's personnal lives as much as possible.

Max

I have always enjoyed how you as a pilot use the rationale - it is takes my time and it is unlikely that anything will happen so why bother.  Does that mean you don't waste time doing pre-flight checks and walkarounds of your aircraft and tolerate your mechanics not doing preventive maintenance because the plane flew well the last time so let's roll the dice!

In this argument you submit that it costs CAF money to follow an admin procedure, so you inflate the numbers so high that it makes your side of the argument weak - 10 minutes to create a leave pass, 5 minutes to sign a piece of paper.  So let's be real and say 5, 1 and 1, so now it is a reasonable $6,600 to track a group of 250 people for one year.  It is all about risk management and taking care of people.  I think that $6,600 of Leave Pass work is a like a good insurance policy that could pay dividends for one soldier who may need that Leave Pass that was saved in HRMS for a VAC claim in the future.  It may be one day, week or many years after you and your subordinate have deleted that text message that acknowledged their weekend plan.


Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: SupersonicMax on May 27, 2018, 13:27:55
I trust the technicians they did a proper Before Flight check and do a quick overall check - not nearly as thourough as they just did.

I think it takes about 5 minutes just for monitor mass to start up.  Depending on how quick someone is with MM, another 5 minutes to create the leave pass, save it, open Acrobat, insert PKI, put password, e-sign it, send an email is not unreasonable.  10 minutes is not a stretch.

After I e-sign it (open adobe acrobat, put my PKI in, enter my password, sign the document, save it), I have to send it to the OR.  That is probably 4-5 minutes.

For the OR to enter in HMRS, stamp the leave pass and return to member, I'll give you 3 minutes (I have no idea how HMRS actually works).

The thing is that it isn't an insurance policy.  If you want to track your folk's whereabouts, use a method that doesn't take so much time.  This is admin that is not required by any high-level policy or orders: simply by local commanders.  This is something we can easily control and reduce people's time wasted on things that are not necessary.
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Dimsum on May 27, 2018, 13:28:21
Max

I have always enjoyed how you as a pilot use the rationale - it is takes my time and it is unlikely that anything will happen so why bother.  Does that mean you don't waste time doing pre-flight checks and walkarounds of your aircraft and tolerate your mechanics not doing preventive maintenance because the plane flew well the last time so let's roll the dice!

In this argument you submit that it costs CAF money to follow an admin procedure, so you inflate the numbers so high that it makes your side of the argument weak - 10 minutes to create a leave pass, 5 minutes to sign a piece of paper.  So let's be real and say 5, 1 and 1, so now it is a reasonable $6,600 to track a group of 250 people for one year.  It is all about risk management and taking care of people.  I think that $6,600 of Leave Pass work is a like a good insurance policy that could pay dividends for one soldier who may need that Leave Pass that was saved in HRMS for a VAC claim in the future.  It may be one day, week or many years after you and your subordinate have deleted that text message that acknowledged their weekend plan.

I'm not sure that's a good analogy.  There's a chance that the aircraft could get a snag between the last time the plane landed and the upcoming flight.  However, if something happens while that person is on leave on a weekend out of area (but within the CF leave manual's arcs), then they're covered, no?  There really isn't a way where the policy would randomly change between the person going on leave and him/her returning (that's not a great analogy either but it's the closest I can think of a policy getting a "snag".)  If so, then isn't it a duplication of effort?

Definitely tell people where you're going and a way to reach you, but if there isn't a reason to be recalled in short notice (duty, ready posture, etc) *and* if all issues are already covered, then why are we doing this to ourselves?
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Simian Turner on May 27, 2018, 13:42:18
Dimsum,

My analogy was for Max's normal argumentative style, which I think he acknowledged and not for the discussion ongoing in this thread.  Duplication of effort and redundancy are two separate things.  Having both a supervisor sign recommending and a superior sign approving a leave pass is redundant as the leave pass should not reach the superior unless the supervisor recommends it.  Duplication of effort is both the mechanic and the pilot doing some pre-flight checks.

As I stated we are doing this to ourselves because QR&Os tell us to and following orders may require duplication of effort; but, QR&O seldom result in redundant activity (by definition - superfluous; exceeding what is necessary.)

Max,

Let's not exaggerate time do you have to do that whole start procedure for every weekend leave pass or can you give everyone a NLT time and approve all of the leave passes at once (say noon Friday).   I am pretty sure you can copy and paste in MM so you don't need to waste time typing.  Not everyone is going to require a weekend leave pass because they are not going to travel beyond the Base recall limits.

The reality in many units is that soldiers prepare handwritten weekend leave passes and sign them without dates entered so that should one be required for admin purposes the appropriate supervisor will sign it and use the text messages as references.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: SupersonicMax on May 27, 2018, 13:49:06
I see weekend leave passes entirely as superfluous.  Checking an airplane before flying (albeit less in detail than the tech who just did his preflight) is a safety layer.  In an airplane, if something goes wrong airborne, you can't just stop on the side of the road so in this case, I think a quick second look is not superfluous but accepted industry safety practices. 
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Simian Turner on May 27, 2018, 13:57:15
I guess he did not see difference...when I said "In this argument"! :-X
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Quirky on May 27, 2018, 14:05:55
Pretty interesting info.

I've always questioned needing a leave pass to leave the local area. When I'd enquire what the local area was an NCOs would more times than not seem to make something up off the top of their head.

"you won't be covered (medically) if you get into an accident and don't have a leave pass"

I’ve always laughed at that. How many people travel to Edmonton from Cold Lake for example on a weekend without a leave pass? Everyone. So by that notion if you get into a car accident they will charge you for medical care and deny you prescription coverage then cut your salary? BS
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 27, 2018, 14:13:35
The more important policy for a weekend leave outside the local area is QR&O 16.01 http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page:

16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE
(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:

because of imperative military requirements; and
when the member's commanding officer personally directs the member's return to duty.

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled.

It is for this reason that Bases normally state a leave policy that is associated with a map showing boundaries. For coverage for injuries and subsequent VAC benefits you want to be officially be on leave, if while you are returning to unit/Base when recalled by the CO and you get into a car accident it is an injury that occurred while on duty.  Without the leave pass showing your intended location/destination then it is expected that you are at home (the place from which you are recalled) and not camping in the woods off the beaten path (the place you forgot to get a leave pass to serve as evidence that this was your intent).

In addition to the CF 100 having information on how to acquire health services while on leave it also helps to document your status, if you are on official leave and you require hospitalization then the leave shall terminate on the day prior to the date of admission (for accounting purposes).

 ???

If the CO or delegated pers contacts me at 2200hrs on a Friday, THAT is my 'evidence' that I am no longer off duty and on duty as off 2200hrs.  If I am in Toronto, and at 2230hrs, slip on some ice outside the airport getting out of the cab while heading to wait on standby/get on the next avail flight, you're saying I would be considered on duty because I am not on a leave pass?  And that VAC wouldn't consider it an injury while 'on duty'?   ???

Bases and units making their own leave policy that is counter to that authorized for the entire CAF by the CMP;  can a Base Cmdr or Unit CO say "all pers under the rank of Sgt will be restricted to 15 Days Ann Leave regardless of years of service while posted to my unit"?  No, because someone higher than them has already made a policy that says otherwise.  Why is it people think the weekend leave policy is any different?  If I hand in a leave pass to go 'anywhere in Canada' on a normal weekend off, it will be handed back to me.  My Wing doesn't process weekend leave passes now because...they are not required for weekend leave/non-duty weekends. 

There are no "base recall limits" unless you are actually on standby/recall.  Not everyone is considered Standby "just in case" - that is why the leave policy manual also details things like IMRs because in the past, people in positions of authority did stupid things for no good reason and the result was a CAF-wide Leave Policy.  It's pretty easy, like CFPAS is, people only need to read and follow it (oddly enough, the ones who make their own rules and ignore ones from higher are usually the same ones who expect THEIR rules to followed without question  ::)).  The problem comes when people in positions like CO etc decide to insert their own rules for some far fetched reason and ignore policy from higher.

More importantly, where in the QR & O does it state "Bases and units are authorized to ignore the CAF policy auth by the CMP and can insert their own policy, willy-nilly where they see fit"?   The part of the QR & O you ref'd is about recall from leave, and not directly related to weekends (the CAF policy is you don't require leave or a leave pass for a normal weekend off-duty). 
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 27, 2018, 14:23:23
As I stated we are doing this to ourselves because QR&Os tell us to and following orders may require duplication of effort; but, QR&O seldom result in redundant activity (by definition - superfluous; exceeding what is necessary.)

Please, show me where the QR & Os state a leave pass is required for normal weekend travel.  I've shown where the CAF Leave Policy says the opposite.

Quote
The reality in many units is that soldiers prepare handwritten weekend leave passes and sign them without dates entered so that should one be required for admin purposes the appropriate supervisor will sign it and use the text messages as references.

This practice is also banned now at my unit. 


I've have a particular pet peeve with the sentiment "CO's can do what they want";  they can't.  There are policies and regulations from higher they are expected to enforce and follow, and statements like the one below from the Leave Policy Manual are written for a reason.

Application

Unless otherwise indicated, this manual applies to all members of the Canadian Forces (CF).
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Simian Turner on May 27, 2018, 14:37:29
???

If the CO or delegated pers contacts me at 2200hrs on a Friday, THAT is my 'evidence' that I am no longer off duty and on duty as off 2200hrs.  If I am in Toronto, and at 2230hrs, slip on some ice outside the airport getting out of the cab while heading to wait on standby/get on the next avail flight, you're saying I would be considered on duty because I am not on a leave pass?  And that VAC wouldn't consider it an injury while 'on duty'?   ???

In the same way that VAC requests that you prove you were actually on the exercise/deployment, that you were doing unit-authorized PT, received permission to play intramurals through a published team roster, that people going to National Sports competitions on weekends have their CO's approval in writing.  How can you prove that you were in Toronto and not sitting in your basement mancave when you received the call from you CO.  The fact that he approved you to go to Toronto indicates that teh chain of command accepts responsibility for transit as being part of the recall. 

As for Base recall limits, many Base Sharepoint sites/Standing Orders include a map showing acceptable living from Base distances and ask people to sign a Statement of Understanding.  Please don't say not everyone does that, I know; the many Bases I am familiar still do.

As for what a CO can do QR&O is your source once again:

4.20 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF A COMMANDING OFFICER
(1) A commanding officer is responsible for the whole of the organization and safety of the commanding officer's base, unit or element, but the detailed distribution of work between the commanding officer and subordinates is left substantially to the commanding officer's discretion.

(2) Unless otherwise provided in QR&O, a commanding officer may allocate to officers, who are immediately subordinate to the commanding officer, all matters of routine or of minor administration.

(3) A commanding officer shall retain for himself:

matters of general organization and policy;
important matters requiring the commanding officer's personal attention and decision; and
the general control and supervision of the various duties that the commanding officer has allocated to others.
(4) A commanding officer of a base, unit or element shall ensure that all works and buildings at the base, unit or element are properly safeguarded at all times.

(C) [24 April 2007]

4.21 - STANDING ORDERS
(1) A commanding officer shall issue standing orders which shall include orders that are peculiar to the commanding officer's base, unit or element.

(2) An officer in temporary command of a base, unit or element shall not issue standing orders, nor alter those already in force, without reference to the officer in permanent command or to superior authority.

(3) Where a commanding officer is away from the base, unit or element, that officer shall not issue standing orders.

(C)

[4.22 to 4.25 inclusive: not allocated]
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 27, 2018, 15:13:40
  How can you prove that you were in Toronto and not sitting in your basement mancave when you received the call from you CO.  The fact that he approved you to go to Toronto indicates that teh chain of command accepts responsibility for transit as being part of the recall. 

This would be pretty ******* easy.  It would show up on your cell phone bill, or at least it does on mine.   

Weekend leave passes are not required and are no longer processed here at 14 Wing as previously stated.  The common sense train is slowly picking up passengers, thank frig.
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Jarnhamar on May 27, 2018, 16:48:54
This would be pretty ******* easy.  It would show up on your cell phone bill, or at least it does on mine.   



I don't think CO's can demand to see members phone bills to prove where you are. Also don't phone bills only track outgoing locations calls are made from, not where you are when you receive a call?

I've seen them CoC demand to see cell phone and Facebook conversations to try and prove members were lying about  not knowing (missed) timings. Didn't seem like a lawful request to me.
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Good2Golf on May 27, 2018, 16:51:57
Max

I have always enjoyed how you as a pilot use the rationale - it is takes my time and it is unlikely that anything will happen so why bother.  Does that mean you don't waste time doing pre-flight checks and walkarounds of your aircraft and tolerate your mechanics not doing preventive maintenance because the plane flew well the last time so let's roll the dice!

In this argument you submit that it costs CAF money to follow an admin procedure, so you inflate the numbers so high that it makes your side of the argument weak - 10 minutes to create a leave pass, 5 minutes to sign a piece of paper.  So let's be real and say 5, 1 and 1, so now it is a reasonable $6,600 to track a group of 250 people for one year.  It is all about risk management and taking care of people.  I think that $6,600 of Leave Pass work is a like a good insurance policy that could pay dividends for one soldier who may need that Leave Pass that was saved in HRMS for a VAC claim in the future.  It may be one day, week or many years after you and your subordinate have deleted that text message that acknowledged their weekend plan.

Not analogous.  There are very clear policies and requirements for maintenance of aircraft, and require deliberate action by qualified and appropriately scheduled crews — nothing haphazard or optional about that.

Max was, to my impression, presenting additional factors in the discussion as to why being patently more restrictive than the CF Leave Manual States, could be deemed administratively burdensome.

Let’s take another perspective - that the CO fully supports use of the policies contained within the CF Leave Manual.  He or she also consider that, potential voluntary arrangements aside for subordinates at any level to advise upwards of their intentions to undertake entitled weekend leave, each of the unit members may take said unregistered weekend leave and RFD on Monday for commencement of regular duties.  If I didn’t order my OCs/Flight Comds to get specific information about the whereabouts of any of their personnel over a weekend, then I sure was not going to be unreasonable if there happened to be something unforeseen pop up and squadron members outside of the standing call-out team weren’t available.  If somebody tried to bombastically screw over one of their subordinates with some statement like, “but sir, they went out to Vancouver for the weekend without a leave pass!” the response likely would have been, “Good! I hope they enjoyed themselves.  They’ll be mentally refreshed for this week’s task.”

At risk of re-energizing the “Monitor Mass is a wonderful product to be the best/easiest/simplest/most flexible/etc. (unofficial) tool to manage CAF member leave” argument, I don’t get the predilections of this who wish to complicate an otherwise simple process will all sorts of complexities. 

The QR&Os and DAODs give COs pretty extensive powers, but one of those powers is to also exercise judgement and ensure operational effectiveness balanced with administrative efficiency.  Where valid operational readiness requirements exist, the requisite regulations, orders, directives and policies exist to support those requirements.

All the add-ones (Monitor Mass [for weekend leave capture], MCpls ordering Privates and Corporals to have cell phones to respond with 5 minutes of a text for sound troop administration, etc) distract from the goal of having (just) enough administration to be effective.  The hypothetical ‘call-out what-ifs’ outside of a working framework for appropriate alert/recall function (where members are issued official tools to support responsive action) is an argument looking for a valid query.  Collecting fly-poop for all the various what-ifs loses sight of the true nature of readiness and responsiveness.  If needed, the Crown will provide. If you don’t get issued a  Blackberry or pager or home DWAN terminal or other specialized equipment, it may just be that what you think is mission critical is not truly mission critical (having things done over the weekend when there was no indication of such a requirement at COB Friday.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

*edited post mobile-posting*
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: ballz on May 27, 2018, 17:01:50
I think that $6,600 of Leave Pass work is a like a good insurance policy that could pay dividends for one soldier who may need that Leave Pass that was saved in HRMS for a VAC claim in the future.  It may be one day, week or many years after you and your subordinate have deleted that text message that acknowledged their weekend plan.

I think all of this is an irrelevant tangent because if I'm recalled, on the weekend, to come back to 2 RCR in Gagetown, and I happen to be in Halifax for the weekend without a leave pass (because it's the weekend and I don't need one for that), the fact that I didn't have a leave pass isn't going to mean diddly squat if I need to put in a VAC claim because I got in a car accident near Moncton on the way back.

I was still on leave, I was still recalled from leave, and from that moment I was on duty. Your assertion that because I didn't have a leave pass meant I was "expected to be at home" and therefore if I get in a car accident near Moncton I am not "covered" is supported by what policy/evidence? Not the leave manual, that's for sure. As well, the purpose of a leave pass is not to track member's whereabouts, as has been mentioned.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: ballz on May 27, 2018, 17:13:09
"you won't be covered (medically) if you get into an accident and don't have a leave pass"

Always my favourite line of BS, perpetuated by all those who ought to know better.

I don't think CO's can demand to see members phone bills to prove where you are. Also don't phone bills only track outgoing locations calls are made from, not where you are when you receive a call?

I've seen them CoC demand to see cell phone and Facebook conversations to try and prove members were lying about  not knowing (missed) timings. Didn't seem like a lawful request to me.

He's talking about the member using it to support a VAC claim. The member can use any evidence they want.

How can you prove that you were in Toronto and not sitting in your basement mancave when you received the call from you CO.  The fact that he approved you to go to Toronto indicates that teh chain of command accepts responsibility for transit as being part of the recall. 

Proving you were in Toronto would be pretty damn easy. Numerous receipts, the plane ticket you were using to come back, etc. Proving you were "approved" to be in Toronto is irrelevant... you didn't need approval to be there.
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Simian Turner on May 27, 2018, 21:23:40
As well, the purpose of a leave pass is not to track member's whereabouts, as has been mentioned.

If the purpose of the leave pass is not to track a member's whereabouts: then why is there a section that asks Address While on Leave and Telephone?  And why does it ask if you will be Travelling Abroad?  Why does the Instruction page state: 

 b. ''From''/''To'' blocks include leave period, weekends and statutory
 holidays if applicable.

It would be prudent during In Clearance and Orientation period to to verify with your local Standing Orders at the Div, Bde, Base or Unit to know what the "local policies are".
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: garb811 on May 27, 2018, 21:34:15
This whole thread has given me a headache.  The Retention vs Recruiting thread is talking about why people stay and why people don't stick around.  People making stuff up and others perpetuating it as "gospel" without critical thought, like is happening in this thread, is a huge factor.  Stop treating  your troops like kids and they will start acting like adults.  Keep treating them like kids, including telling them they MUST get your permission to go visit their parents three hours away and they will walk away from the chickencrap.

I haven't put a "weekend" leave pass in since...my QL3, which was decades ago.  Ever since then I've just gone about my business and the world hasn't ended, which included flying across the country and back on a long weekend while attending a course.  Even as a "1 of 1" who needs to be reached in a fairly expeditious manner for certain things the world has somehow kept turning without my boss knowing my exact whereabouts on the weekend.  This has even been true on Annual leave when I've put in ambiguous destinations such as, "Touring NS, NB and PEI" because I didn't really know where I was going to end up, other than somewhere within those three provinces for at least a portion of my leave with the remainder being spent tooling around my home province.

75% of my "weekend leave" trips are made spur of the moment, as I'm sure quite a few others do.  The folks arguing the "need" for a weekend leave pass probably wouldn't be too happy if their troops suddenly started calling them up at 7am on a Saturday because they had forgotten their kid had a hockey game "outside the recall area" and needed a pass.  Of course, seeing that they would impose a "deadline" for weekend leave passes to be submitted, they would immediately deny it because their timeline wasn't met, and good lesson to be taught by forcing the child to miss their game.   ::)

I don't think CO's can demand to see members phone bills to prove where you are. Also don't phone bills only track outgoing locations calls are made from, not where you are when you receive a call?

I've seen them CoC demand to see cell phone and Facebook conversations to try and prove members were lying about  not knowing (missed) timings. Didn't seem like a lawful request to me.
It wasn't a lawful request, the only legal way to get it is with a warrant or a production order. Particularly since there is no doubt in my mind that they had visions of charging whoever it was being demanded from if it showed they did know.

As for what a cellphone bill even proves, I don't get a traditional cellphone bill in the first place because I'm on electronic billing.  Even if I were to print it off it has zero records of any calls I have made or received because I'm on a cross-Canada use as much as you want plan so there isn't any need to account for additional costs due to long distance etc.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Simian Turner on May 27, 2018, 22:07:40
Do you really think it is the chicken manure like Leave Passes, Standing Orders and CO's autonomy intends to create an invasion of troops personal lives that are chasing people away?  I know that isn't what chase me away!  Stop making this sounds so arduous and intrusive.  The reason I pointed out the policies was in response to the folks saying "What gives the Bde Comd or the CO the right to tell when to take my leave" and "Why would anyone need a weekend leave pass".  I concede that the CAF Leave Policy Manual is very clear on weekend leave passes. But like all admin policies they are not vetted with Veterans Affairs to see if they meet their requirements.

I was at a recent conference where a senior officer from MPC/CMP stated the CAF has 600 admin policies that cover the standard processes that apply to fit, healthy, deployable soldiers. CAF Health Services has over 1000 policies that discuss what goes on when things take an unexpected turn for the average soldier.

Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: ballz on May 27, 2018, 22:29:27
If the purpose of the leave pass is not to track a member's whereabouts: then why is there a section that asks Address While on Leave and Telephone?  And why does it ask if you will be Travelling Abroad?


Don't know, and don't really care. Perhaps because that is useful info for the approving authority to review before deciding to approve all the other types of leave he could possibly have to approve.

The leave pass is as old as the military itself... And maybe this a failure of the leave policy manual, given that it's "intent" is obviously not clear and it isn't explicitly stated. Given its use throughout history as something the soldier had on him to show that he was not AWOL / had deserted the Unit, which is why to this day the policy manual still states:

"A member shall produce a CF 100:
- for inspection when requested by a member of the Military Police or asuperior officer; and
- to any military or civilian medical or dental facility when treatment is requested."

I suspect, back at the beginning of time, they decided that this was not necessary when he's at home, in Canada, on a Saturday and/or Sunday, and the likelihood of an MP in Toronto arbitrarily requesting the leave pass of a plain-clothed soldier who he suspects might be AWOL would be pretty non-existent.

Why does the Instruction page state: 

 b. ''From''/''To'' blocks include leave period, weekends and statutory holidays if applicable.

Because... "Weekends, designated and other holidays are included on a CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days."

So that you don't end up doing 10x leave passes to cover off Xmas block leave?  ::)

Otherwise,  "A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
- travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
- travel benefits are requested (e.g. LTA); or
- required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis."
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: garb811 on May 27, 2018, 22:30:38
Do you really think it is the chicken manure like Leave Passes, Standing Orders and CO's autonomy intends to create an invasion of troops personal lives that are chasing people away?
Standing Orders and CO's autonomy, no.  When people make up and then try to defend policies that are clearly contradicting a national policy with chickencrap?  Absolutely.

This isn't like when I first got in and the QR&Os were locked in the OR and you needed permission to read them.  Troops today have full access to the Leave Manual and they read it cover to cover and quite likely know the section they are concerned about much better than the supervisor they are questioning.

Quote
I know that isn't what chase me away!  Stop making this sounds so arduous and intrusive.  The reason I pointed out the policies was in response to the folks saying "What gives the Bde Comd or the CO the right to tell when to take my leave" and "Why would anyone need a weekend leave pass".  I concede that the CAF Leave Policy Manual is very clear on weekend leave passes. But like all admin policies they are not vetted with Veterans Affairs to see if they meet their requirements.

I was at a recent conference where a senior officer from MPC/CMP stated the CAF has 600 admin policies that cover the standard processes that apply to fit, healthy, deployable soldiers. CAF Health Services has over 1000 policies that discuss what goes on when things take an unexpected turn for the average soldier.
"VAC's requirements" should simply be to see if what the member was doing was in concordance with what CAF policy was at the time.  VAC doesn't dictate what is and isn't on duty or not, which is why any CF98 I'm involved with has a clear statement of whether or not the injury was duty related.

This cycles back to the fear mongering that used to be held as gospel as to non-issued kit like boots (OMG, you slip on ice and break your leg in Danners, VAC isn't going to cover you!) and PT outside duty hours (OMG, you go for a run on the weekend and get hit by a truck, VAC isn't going to cover you!). Neither of those is true either.
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: garb811 on May 27, 2018, 22:33:49
...
The leave pass is as old as the military itself... And maybe this a failure of the leave policy manual, given that it's "intent" is obviously not clear and it isn't explicitly stated. Given its use throughout history as something the soldier had on him to show that he was not AWOL / had deserted the Unit, which is why to this day the policy manual still states:
...
Further to, I seem to recall that once GUARDIAN rolls out fully, CF100's are going the way of the Dodo as all leave is going to be submitted and approved in a manner close to what happens with DND civilians.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Simian Turner on May 27, 2018, 22:44:01
Does anyone have access to MHRRP, Chapter 16 which according to CAF Leave Policy Manual has more info on the CF100 Leave Request Form.  Is CF 100 (09-00), 7530-21-899-4371 the most current form in use?

Further to, I seem to recall that once GUARDIAN rolls out fully, CF100's are going the way of the Dodo as all leave is going to be submitted and approved in a manner close to what happens with DND civilians.

Good luck to CAF members once Guardian rolls out since Oracle (Leave) and Phoenix (Pay) make life so interesting for PS employees and supervisors.
Title: Re: Re: Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
Post by: Dimsum on May 27, 2018, 22:45:03
Further to, I seem to recall that once GUARDIAN rolls out fully, CF100's are going the way of the Dodo as all leave is going to be submitted and approved in a manner close to what happens with DND civilians.

How do they do it?  Is it electronic leave passes?
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: garb811 on May 27, 2018, 22:48:07
As their supervisor you get a notification they have submitted leave for you to approve in HRMS.  You then go in, review it and approve it or deny it.  No paperwork, no manual accounting, no yearly leave audits that are  outside the system and no paper copy to be found.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Simian Turner on May 28, 2018, 01:19:01
Except that in the case of Oracle the system is closed for the first two weeks of the new fiscal year while a central audit is carried out to ensure the system count is correct.  During this two week period you cannot enter in the system. As well you cannot amend the previous year once the audit is complete.  Each person receives an email at the end of the year confirming their leave balances/carry-overs.  I am not sure how it will work for Short Leave and Special Leave as each Command seems to have their own version of summer and December/January entitlements.  At least the member and the supervisor can sign into it at any time and see the balances and the approved leave periods.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Lumber on May 28, 2018, 15:23:28
Wait... "insert PKI card"? What, you guys don't just leave it Plugged in 24/7?......  :orly:
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Terminal on May 29, 2018, 12:03:51
Wait... "insert PKI card"? What, you guys don't just leave it Plugged in 24/7?......  :orly:

I do, and it's perfectly acceptable. There's no security requirement to remove a PKI card.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: dapaterson on May 29, 2018, 18:10:03
But then you're on TD, logging in to a different computer, and realize your PKI card is 800 km away.


Or so I've heard...
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 30, 2018, 19:11:11
First off, this is a good discussion so far IMO.  Different POVs from different environments etc.

In the same way that VAC requests that you prove you were actually on the exercise/deployment, that you were doing unit-authorized PT, received permission to play intramurals through a published team roster, that people going to National Sports competitions on weekends have their CO's approval in writing.  How can you prove that you were in Toronto and not sitting in your basement mancave when you received the call from you CO.  The fact that he approved you to go to Toronto indicates that teh chain of command accepts responsibility for transit as being part of the recall.

- I do not require my CO's permission to go to Toronto, or anywhere inside Canada on a normal weekend off.  This is official CAF policy.  (I'll get to the 'can the CO make a more restrictive policy' aspect in the other part)

- When my CofC contacts me, I say "I am in Toronto right now, my flight back isn't until Sunday evening".  If they want to order me back regardless...the unit could be on the hook for the cost to get me back early.  The CO *shall ensure* the OR/URS is updated (also right in the policy);  this would also be a reasonable form of verification of my whereabouts if I am out of province via a CAL, no?

Section 2.7 Withholding and Recall From Leave

2.7.01 Policy

The policy for withholding of and recalling from leave is directed in QR&O 16.01, Withholding of and Recall from Leave.

2.7.02 General Administration

If a CF member on leave is recalled to duty, the CO shall ensure that the member's URS is notified of the details of the altered leave period.

Pursuant to CBI 209.54, Reimbursement of Expenses When Recalled From or On Cancellation of Leave and CBI 209.50, Transportation on Leave, a member who is recalled from leave may be entitled to reimbursement of additional expenses.

- the *Toronto and not in my mancave* aspect.  Well, to start with, are we treating CAF members like adults, convicts or children?  I treat my subordinates like adults until they give me a reason not to.  If I am in TO, I'll have (in my case) plane tickets.  If I was closer, and driving, it's pretty easy for me to hit an ATM and withdraw $20.  I use receipts all the time travelling to prove where I was, at what time (example, proceeding on TD I hit the ATM at the end of my street to show what time I left home). 

Quote
As for Base recall limits, many Base Sharepoint sites/Standing Orders include a map showing acceptable living from Base distances and ask people to sign a Statement of Understanding.  Please don't say not everyone does that, I know; the many Bases I am familiar still do.

Geo boundaries aren't tied directly to leave policy and it is possible to live outside those boundaries (I myself live outside my base geo boundaries with approval from my Sqn, Wing and DCBA).  However, living in or outside the boundaries doesn't affect if I require to inform my unit where I am on non-duty times.

Quote
As for what a CO can do QR&O is your source once again:

4.20 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF A COMMANDING OFFICER
(1) A commanding officer is responsible for the whole of the organization and safety of the commanding officer's base, unit or element, but the detailed distribution of work between the commanding officer and subordinates is left substantially to the commanding officer's discretion.

(2) Unless otherwise provided in QR&O, a commanding officer may allocate to officers, who are immediately subordinate to the commanding officer, all matters of routine or of minor administration.

(3) A commanding officer shall retain for himself:

matters of general organization and policy;
important matters requiring the commanding officer's personal attention and decision; and
the general control and supervision of the various duties that the commanding officer has allocated to others.
(4) A commanding officer of a base, unit or element shall ensure that all works and buildings at the base, unit or element are properly safeguarded at all times.

(C) [24 April 2007]

4.21 - STANDING ORDERS
(1) A commanding officer shall issue standing orders which shall include orders that are peculiar to the commanding officer's base, unit or element.

(2) An officer in temporary command of a base, unit or element shall not issue standing orders, nor alter those already in force, without reference to the officer in permanent command or to superior authority.

(3) Where a commanding officer is away from the base, unit or element, that officer shall not issue standing orders.

(C)

[4.22 to 4.25 inclusive: not allocated]

I'm looking for the part in the above ref that states "COs may ignore orders including DAODs, CFAOs, or other duly authorized policy from any superior officers when writing their own unit orders". 

A few years ago, a unit CO wrote a more restrictive Leave Policy for weekends/non-duty time.  It basically stated you had to have a leave pass to be away overnight and that to leave the geographical boundaries, you needed a leave pass as well.  All unit members were required to sign saying they were briefed and aware.  This unit also had a standby sub-unit 24/7/365 as it was both a high ready/op tempo unit and one required by its HHQ to maintain a standby subunit regularly (every day of the year).  Therefore, if a recall was to happen or a tasking, etc there was always people 'on call' to handle it.  As this new leave policy was contrary to the CAF leave policy, it was given to a CAF policy SME for their review and thoughts, who presented it to the local AJAG office.  The AJAG assessment was:

- the CO already had a designated standby sub-unit, IAW orders from HHQ, to handle weekend taskings.  Those people were already on duty, with their movement restricted.
- the CO has to have an actual military requirement to restrict members' movements outside of duty hours.  "something might happen that the duty sub-unit can't handle" isn't an actual military requirement that would give the CO a reason to restrict all unit members' movements during non-duty hours.  As there was no 'task' identified with the restriction, there was no military requirement for the unit policy.
- the line between on duty and off duty is clear;  if a member is off duty, their travel is restricted to the CAF policy as laid out in the Leave Manual.  If they are at home on a weekend but 'on call/standby', their status is actually 'on duty' and they are bound to the details of that duty as laid out in orders, etc.

*not long after, incidentally, the leave policy component of the Unit Orders was rewritten, with non-duty restrictions for weekdays and weekends going back to the Leave Policy Manual version.

The LegO also stated that there would be no grounds to charge someone for leaving the geo boundaries on non-duty time, including weekends, unless they were unable to return to their place of duty at the next expected time (0800 Monday for most people after the weekend) as detailed in Unit Orders.  The aspect of admin action was also touched on, with words to the effect of "the redress authority would basically have no choice but to grant redress if someone grieved admin actions such as RMs, because the CAF policy is IAW with the Leave Manual".

The QR & O you ref above doesn't grant COs blanket authority to completely ignore policies that (1) are authorized by a higher authority than they are  and (2) apply to all CAF members [most DAODs have this line in them for a reason].  I'll use the example of 15 days Ann Leave.  Can the CO of a busy, high op tempo unit tell me I am being restricted to 15 days Ann Leave this year?  No.  The amount of leave I am entitled to is decided above the CO level.  He/she can, however, deny leave for military requirements and cause that some of my leave is accumulated (I've done that, too).

Both the Policy SME (a staff officer/advisor to a GOFO) and the LegO that reviewed, provided assessment and opinion felt the COs policy was overly restrictive, but the LegO really focused in on the 'restriction of movement' aspect.  Of importance, to me at least;  I don't use this information to support my stance, I base my stance on this information/review from a few years ago now.

Lastly, I'll add these parts that I recall from the email chain from the Policy SME/LegO.  These were indicated as important passages from the Leave Policy Manual and the applic DAOD, to what extent I don't recall exactly.  What I recall with the most clarity is the fixation on the 'restriction of members movement during off duty periods'.

Leave Policy Manual (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/leave-policy.page)

Application

Unless otherwise indicated, this manual applies to all members of the Canadian Forces (CF).  [there is no indication that 2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays doesn't apply to 'all CAF mbrs']

Approval Authority

The Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual is issued under the authority of the Chief Military Personnel (CMP).

Reference

Source reference - DAOD 5060-0, Leave

DAOD 5060-0, Leave (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5060-0.page#aut)

Application: This DAOD is an order that applies to officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF members).

Approval Authority: Chief of Military Personnel (CMP)

2. Policy Direction

2.4 The CAF shall:

c. manage leave in accordance with A-PP-005-LVE/AG-001, Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual;

3. Authorities

Authority Table

3.1 The following table identifies the authorities associated with this DAOD:

The …                              has the authority to …

CMP                            develop and approve leave policy.

*note - no wording saying "local commanders, COs, etc can develop their own leave policies...".


In comparison, though CFP 265  (http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/ins-265/index-eng.asp)gives "local commanders" explicit authority to control their subordinates on that subj.

Foreword

1.A-DH-265-000/AG-001, Canadian Armed Forces Dress Instructions, is issued on authority of the Chief of Defence Staff.

CHAPTER 1

3. Changes in dress policy, dress instructions or uniforms, or in the designs of uniforms, uniform accessories, accoutrements or insignia, shall only be made with the approval of the CDS or, on his behalf, by the Chief Military Personnel, National Defence Headquarters (NDHQ/CMP).

7. Control is exercised by local commanders who may standardize the dress of subordinates on any occasion, including the wear of accoutrements and alternative or optional items, subject to overall command direction.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Tcm621 on May 30, 2018, 23:46:26
EITS, It doesn't stop COs for making those orders. My current unit has a weekend leave pass requirement in their SQN Orders. The problem is that fighting it is bad for your career, even though they are wrong.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: dapaterson on May 31, 2018, 00:01:20
EITS, It doesn't stop COs for making those orders. My current unit has a weekend leave pass requirement in their SQN Orders. The problem is that fighting it is bad for your career, even though they are wrong.

See also the OAG's opening comments on his most recent audit, describing the public service - "An obedient culture that puts itself at risk of failure": http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/parl_oag_201805_00_e_43032.html

Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 31, 2018, 08:18:45
EITS, It doesn't stop COs for making those orders. My current unit has a weekend leave pass requirement in their SQN Orders. The problem is that fighting it is bad for your career, even though they are wrong.

I know, and part of the problem is COs and others in higher authority positions making improper decisions and implementing policy with no real accountability unless, or even after, it is challenged.  Anyone who disagrees only needs to peruse this website (https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-summaries.html) to see it is a problem in the CAF. 

There is a way to challenge it, if people see the value in it.  Personally, I think anyone who is in a leadership position/role in a unit has a responsibility to ensure the policies and orders that impact their subordinates are IAW CAF policies, regulations, etc and to bring discrepancies up to their CofC.  It's part of the leadership function, isn't it? 

Another additional comment WRT 'mbrs won't be covered by VAC is they aren't on leave'.  There's a lot or urban myth about VAC coverage in the CAF;  "you won't be covered if you aren't wearing your issued boots", and stuff like that.  As a serving member with a disability pension, I can say I was never asked during my VAC claim process what kit I was wearing, did I have non-issued kit on, anything (I was injured on a parachute landing).  All they cared about, really, was the part on the CF98 that asked (1) was the injury during a duty period and (2) was related to the performance of a military task, or words to that effect.

IAW the CAF Leave Manual Policy, COs are responsible to contact the URS (Base/Wing OR, etc) if they recall a member from leave.  Weekends off are still considered weekend leave, the difference is the CAF doesn't require a leave pass for weekend leave if you aren't leaving Canada (assuming you're posted in Canada).  Basically its worded 'weekends are still considered leave, you only need a leave pass if you're leaving the country or using some other type of leave with it, like a Friday as an Ann Lve day" to me ( I know there's opinions to the opposite, however I think everyone would agree that either way you're not on duty).

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays...

If I'm in Toronto and get recalled, I am no longer on leave.  QR & O, Vol 1, Ch 16, Art 16.01 (3):

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled.

What more do I need to provide VAC that I was 'on duty' from the moment I was recalled and during my entire journey to my place of duty ???

Conversely, if I am in Toronto for a weekend and I get injured somehow...VAC won't likely be involved because I am just travelling during off-duty period.  Not on duty makes it hard for the injury to be duty related IMO.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Tcm621 on June 04, 2018, 17:05:46
This came up again today at work. One person was saying a friend of his had been charged in Borden for AWOL because he was in Toronto for the weekend without a leave pass and being found guilty. The CF leave Policy manual gives 4 times when a leave pass for weekend leave can be required. 1. to connect work days on a longer period of leave. 2 travel to a foreign country 3 when travel benefits are requested and 4 for ration accounting purposes (you are not supposed to get charged for rations while on leave even though I have never actually seen it happen). Based on my reading, no other reasoning could be considered lawful. people on short notice to move aren't really on leave, they are merely working on call.

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
•when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
•when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
•when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: BeyondTheNow on June 04, 2018, 17:27:54
This came up again today at work. One person was saying a friend of his had been charged in Borden for AWOL because he was in Toronto for the weekend without a leave pass and being found guilty...

“...Borden...” Was the individual on course?
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 04, 2018, 17:37:38
One person was saying a friend of his had been charged in Borden for AWOL because he was in Toronto for the weekend without a leave pass and being found guilty...people on short notice to move aren't really on leave, they are merely working on call.

Was this person on 'duty'?  Duty NCO, Duty Sup Tech, something like that?  If that was the case and TO is farther than the mbr should have been away from the base...c'est la vie.

“...Borden...” Was the individual on course?

Not really relevant.  I am on course, TDd away from my home unit.  I still don't need a leave pass to go to Toronto from the weekend and I'm much farther from TO than Borden is.

Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: BeyondTheNow on June 04, 2018, 17:58:37
Not really relevant.  I am on course, TDd away from my home unit.  I still don't need a leave pass to go to Toronto from the weekend and I'm much farther from TO than Borden is.

It’s relevant if there was an individual policy/directive put in place for a specific course, contrary to standard leave policies, which does occur.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: CountDC on June 04, 2018, 18:31:51
You would think that Borden would get this right as it is where CFLTC is located but I know better after attending the place so much.

I am betting that the charges never left the base, maybe not even the school.  The place still operates so much in the past.  Guessing they are still issuing leave passes that expire at 1600hrs on Sunday as well as enforcing the leave pass required to be away from base on the weekends. 

Beyond - the problem there is they do not have the authority to issue such policy/directive. All leave must be administered within the CFLPM.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 04, 2018, 18:39:55
It’s relevant if there was an individual policy/directive put in place for a specific course, contrary to standard leave policies, which does occur.

Yes, it does occur but it shouldn't be.  I posted the 'what happened at a unit 2 years ago' part above where both a policy SME (Staff Officer for a Flag O) and an AJAG reviewed, etc.  What will change it?  Well, challenging it in a professional manner.  Not everyone can be scared to throw rocks into calm water...

But, this happens mostly, in my experience, on courses at the QL3/DP1 whatever its called level; most of them don't know what the policy is (It is whatever the WO/Sgt/MCpl says it is!).  It is, IMO, a leadership failure.  We used to have a sign out book, and that was before the CFLPM...and a leave pass requirement if going out of province (using Gagetown as an example).  The sign out book was great - where I am going, how I am travelling, when I plan on being back, contact number of the place I am going (before cell phone days...).

This (400 different 'leave policies' across a small military like we have) is the problem and the CFLPM was brought into being, partially, to standardize leave across the CAF.  My base doesn't even process 'weekend leave passes' anymore, other's charge people for not filling them out yet the CFLPM clearly states "not required" and the Leave DAOD says the CMP is authorized to devise/approve leave policy.  The purpose of a pan-CAF policy is to set a CAF standard (at least, partially).   :dunno:

Using my default example from before, can the CO at Unit X in Borden decide all NCMs below the rank of Sgt shall only get 15 days annual leave this year?  No.  They don't decide that policy.

But, the way the post was made, it sounded like the individ 'might' have been on some kind of 'on call' (duty) list...Tcm might have more details.  If I went to Toronto when I'm on Standby and I got called it, I'd be expecting a CM not a ST.   :2c:
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 04, 2018, 18:43:05
leave passes that expire at 1600hrs on Sunday as well as enforcing the leave pass required to be away from base on the weekends. 

I remember the "on leave after duty on Friday until 1800hrs Sunday leave passes.  I saw people get charged and found guilty at ST for being 'late' as well! 

Now, having a sign out book is reasonable, IMO...
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: sidemount on June 04, 2018, 18:58:13
Was this person on 'duty'?  Duty NCO, Duty Sup Tech, something like that?  If that was the case and TO is farther than the mbr should have been away from the base...c'est la vie.

Not really relevant.  I am on course, TDd away from my home unit.  I still don't need a leave pass to go to Toronto from the weekend and I'm much farther from TO than Borden is.
Kind of relevant. If the person was on course then they are likely living in quarters  and eating at the mess. In which case that would fall under the Rations rule in the leave manual as the rations are continouous even if it is only for a short duration. And CFTPO/TD should not matter as someone/place is paying for those rations. Therefore a weekend leavepass should be produced as it falls within the policy.

However if you are not on rations then no leavepass would be required and Id be fighting the charge.

The only other thing I can see possibly happening is the being on course is considered on duty all the time including weekends....I wonder if that argument has ever been made.

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Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 04, 2018, 19:06:12
Kind of relevant. If the person was on course then they are likely living in quarters  and eating at the mess. In which case that would fall under the Rations rule in the leave manual as the rations are continouous even if it is only for a short duration. And CFTPO/TD should not matter as someone/place is paying for those rations. Therefore a weekend leavepass should be produced as it falls within the policy.

*if* they are.  I am on course/TD but not living in quarters or eating at a mess right now (it's possible).  Good point though; I completely missed that part.  Guess I should be focusing on studying not this thread and doing both half-arse.

So...what about if they aren't on 'full rations'?  they aren't paying for wknd rations then, only lunch and supper Mon-Fri (in some cases).


Quote
The only other thing I can see possibly happening is the being on course is considered on duty all the time including weekends....I wonder if that argument has ever been made.



There are ways they can do that;  think of Indoc at CFLRS.  I've also seen 'confined to base' weekends on courses over the years - QL3, CLC, etc.

Lots we don't know about the circumstances other than...."Borden".   ;D
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Tcm621 on June 04, 2018, 19:10:23
From my understanding this was a Ql3 course student. And in this case the rations clause could be a reason, if they didn't charge for rations while you are on leave, which I have never seen. To top it off, if I eat pizza all weekend in my shacks doesn't it amount to the same thing.

Edit for autocorrect
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: sidemount on June 04, 2018, 19:12:46
*if* they are.  I am on course/TD but not living in quarters or eating at a mess right now (it's possible).  Good point though;  so...what about if they aren't on 'full rations'?  they aren't paying for wknd rations then, only lunch and supper Mon-Fri (in some cases).


There are ways they can do that;  think of Indoc at CFLRS.  I've also seen 'confined to base' weekends on courses over the years - QL3, CLC, etc.

Lots we don't know about the circumstances other than...."Borden".   ;D
Borden....yup that about says it all :)
So many loopholes that could have been used especially if they are a Private who doesnt know how to look up policy.


To be honest, everything is a swipe card now anyway....why not just go with a "pay as you use" card and axe the rations reason all together.



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Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 04, 2018, 19:15:35
To be honest, everything is a swipe card now anyway....why not just go with a "pay as you use" card and axe the rations reason all together.




Cmdts/COs of TE can 'administer' their candidates effectively with the ration part in place? 
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 04, 2018, 19:17:52
To top it off, if I eat pizza all weekend in my shacks doesn't it amount to the same thing.

Not if you didn't leave the base and go to Toronto  :D
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: BeyondTheNow on June 04, 2018, 19:22:16
Lots we don't know about the circumstances other than...."Borden".   ;D

Yup, and some of us were trying to gather more info to stave off at least a bit of speculation before our inquiry was labelled as irrelevant.  ::)
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 04, 2018, 19:29:33
And that was my bad.  I never thought about the 'on course and rations' part   :whistle:  (if that is where you were leaning...I thought you were going on the 'on course' part vice the rations, which I completely missed)

 ;D

Good catch on your and Sidemount's part though! 
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: sidemount on June 04, 2018, 19:31:38
And that was my bad.  I never thought about the 'on course and rations' part   :whistle:

 ;D

Good catch on your and Sidemount's part though!
I only thought about it as Im heading to Borden for course on CFTPO in a few weeks haha.

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Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 04, 2018, 19:35:19
I only thought about it as Im heading to Borden for course on CFTPO in a few weeks haha.

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And I didn't think of it because I am on course, TD and not paying for rations or staying in SQs.  And...I should be studying not...this.  ha!
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: PMedMoe on June 05, 2018, 00:28:04
Last time I was in Borden on course, if you went home (primary residence) on weekend leave, you didn't get TD for those days.

Needless to say, I didn't go home as much...   ::)
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: dapaterson on June 05, 2018, 00:32:56
Last time I was in Borden on course, if you went home (primary residence) on weekend leave, you didn't get TD for those days.

Needless to say, I didn't go home as much...   ::)

Which is as per the regulations.   Why would someone be paid an allowance for being away from home on a day when they are at home?
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: PMedMoe on June 05, 2018, 01:17:06
Which is as per the regulations.   Why would someone be paid an allowance for being away from home on a day when they are at home?

Oh, I get that.  However, it wasn't always like that.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on November 30, 2018, 09:10:19
EITS, It doesn't stop COs for making those orders. My current unit has a weekend leave pass requirement in their SQN Orders. The problem is that fighting it is bad for your career, even though they are wrong.

Heaven forbid someone step up and say something.  Bad for your career?  Are you kidding me?  There is a right way and a wrong way to address this issue.  A simple conversation should clear this up.

The leave policy manual wasn't always around, IIRC it first came out in 2009 (please correct me if I am mistaken).  The idea was to consolidate and clarify leave policy. 

I'd love to hear a story where an individual was charged with stepping outside the "travel radius" without a leave pass (post 2009).  A story where this individual wasn't required to stay close to home, 2 hour stand by for example.   Now that we have answers on "Boots and Beards" maybe someone can start asking about weekend leave at the next town hall.   

Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: Tcm621 on December 04, 2018, 13:17:48
Heaven forbid someone step up and say something.  Bad for your career?  Are you kidding me?  There is a right way and a wrong way to address this issue.  A simple conversation should clear this up.

The leave policy manual wasn't always around, IIRC it first came out in 2009 (please correct me if I am mistaken).  The idea was to consolidate and clarify leave policy. 

I'd love to hear a story where an individual was charged with stepping outside the "travel radius" without a leave pass (post 2009).  A story where this individual wasn't required to stay close to home, 2 hour stand by for example.   Now that we have answers on "Boots and Beards" maybe someone can start asking about weekend leave at the next town hall.

That simple conversation has been going on for years and the answer is always same, "Fight it at your own risk." I can name dozens of issues which are pretty black and white in the regs but COs and CWOs disregard them in favour of their own rules and god forbid you bring it up (toques and gloves anyone?) I think what you mean is that someone with sufficient rank to approach the Base Commander directly should be able to correct this with a simple conversation. For the rest of us, we get labeled as trouble makers and barracks block lawyers.
Title: Re: Travel on weekend leave
Post by: ballz on December 04, 2018, 19:32:35
Which is as per the regulations.   Why would someone be paid an allowance for being away from home on a day when they are at home?

Not sure I agree with that interpretation of the CFTDTI actually.... the fact that you drive "home" for the weekend doesn't mean your place of duty isn't still your TD location and it doesn't mean you aren't still incurring incidental expenses as a result of being on TD outside the geographic area.

If I live in Toronto, and I'm in Borden on TD, and I take weekend leave and travel to Montreal... I still get incidentals. Why would I not still get incidents if I visit Toronto on weekend leave? I still incur the same incidental expenses (it's a reimbursement of incidental expenses hence why it is non-taxable).

In fact, if I pay 30-40 bucks in gas to drive home on the weekend to water my plants, cut my grass, feed my pet snake, do some laundry, etc, seems to fit pretty good the definition of what "incidental expenses" are for.

There's no part under "7.16 Incidental expense allowance" para 3 (No entitlement) that says you won't be entitled to TD if you are on weekend/annual leave or if you happen to travel home instead of travelling somewhere else.