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Navy.ca => Navy General => Topic started by: jollyjacktar on June 10, 2015, 16:06:09

Title: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 10, 2015, 16:06:09
Not that I am bitching, and would have included this in the other thread Loach has locked.  But, on the buttons and bows scene, I heard today some scuttlebutt that Salt and Peppers are on the way out along with the new changes proposed to the NCD's.  Some savings to be found there with cutting back on the orders of dress.  NCD's or DEU as the situation dictates.  Less BS.  I like it.













Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: milnews.ca on June 10, 2015, 16:29:16
Not that I am bitching, and would have included this in the other thread Loach has locked.  But, on the buttons and bows scene, I heard today some scuttlebutt that Salt and Peppers are on the way out along with the new changes proposed to the NCD's.  Some savings to be found there with cutting back on the orders of dress.  NCD's or DEU as the situation dictates.  Less BS.  I like it.
For those of us who are land-lubbers, what are S&P's?
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on June 10, 2015, 16:41:48
Salt and pepper: Can stand either for the summer DEU, namely DEU black pants (pepper) with the summer short sleeves white shirt (salt), or its shipboard "bastardized" version when on duty, composed of the (work dress in the old days) dark NCD pants worn with the DEU white short sleeve shirt, to give the impression from affar that you are wearing your full DEU's.

I suspect its this second version that will disappear. You will always wear the proper DEU (at the brow in foreign harbour for instance) or the NCD even if you have brow duty in home harbour.

I can't see them get rid of the summer DEU because we wear it too often as office dress in the Navy and nobody wants to work in long sleeve shirt with tie in the summer. :)
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 10, 2015, 16:47:51
From what I gather, what is proposed to go is the # 3 Service Dress order.  Office and shipboard dress will be NCD, unless you're required to be wearing DEU.  But as I say, it's all scuttlebutt at the moment.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: milnews.ca on June 10, 2015, 16:55:00
Salt and pepper: Can stand either for the summer DEU, namely DEU black pants (pepper) with the summer short sleeves white shirt (salt), or its shipboard "bastardized" version when on duty, composed of the (work dress in the old days) dark NCD pants worn with the DEU white short sleeve shirt, to give the impression from affar that you are wearing your full DEU's.
Thanks for the education.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Halifax Tar on June 10, 2015, 17:23:07
So we would just wear whites for summer service dress ?
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 10, 2015, 17:36:44
Whites weren't mentioned, just Salt and Peppers.  Having the Whites around still would not equate to much savings, if that is a driving force with this suggestion, as you'd still have short sleeve shirts as well as the trousers and shoes.   :dunno: 
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on June 10, 2015, 17:59:36
I can't see much savings at all in this, what difference would two or three short sleeves shirt (are they still around $10.00 each?) make in the whole deal. On the other hand, we would be losing a most useful uniform, at least for PO's and above (I can see some limited sense in this for the seamen).

I have regularly attended in summer at various briefings in foreign states for joint exercises or to prepare when I was acting as observer on other NATO nation vessels, etc. I would stick out like a sore thumb if I showed up in either my NCD or in full DEU. And the full whites would not be much better. I would be there with officers from other nations wearing either their Khakis or their own version of the salt & pepper. Anything else would detract.

On top of that, I always felt we (the Navy) were amongst the last "reasonable" personnel at NDHQ for not abusing the "operational" look attitude of HQ office workers. You wear your service dress for daily office work and it looks professional while at the same time conveying the message that , well, you are STAFF and your job is to do the paperwork in support of the people actually out there carrying the operations.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Get Nautical on June 10, 2015, 18:02:49
I thought Salt and Peppers (DEU pants and white short sleeve dress shirt) with peaked cap or beret looked very professional, equivalent to Army summer dress no? *someone can correct me if a beret is not worn in that rig.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 10, 2015, 18:13:00
GN. Yes, yes it is.  I hate my peak cap and enjoy wearing my beret.

OGBD, I honestly don't know if there's any legs to this thought, and if there is, what the driving force behind it is for that matter.  Someone, somewhere, seems to have it in their heads they "need" to change what is with all this talk of new rank insignia, changes to the NCD jackets etc.  Usually, where there's smoke there's fire.  Someone seems to be testing the waters as it appears to me.

I have a love/hate relationship with Salt and Peppers.  There's times I love wearing it and many others when I don't.  I understand in Ottawa as  P2 I have the option of NCD as my daily dress.  I'll be going with that.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Get Nautical on June 10, 2015, 18:51:17
Sea Div must of been pissed when they brought NCD`s with creases sewn in >:D
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 10, 2015, 19:18:53
The next gen trousers are supposed to have them removed as well.  Back to ironing.  ;)
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pat in Halifax on June 10, 2015, 19:51:03
From my last chat, all operational staff will revert to NCDs and in fact Task Group staff in 201 here in Halifax has already done so. I am pretty sure this is NOT a $$$ saving issue as a full NCD ensemble costs about $250-about 4 times as much as a short sleeve shirt and pair of slacks. Fleet Chief is back Monday and I will see if there are any 'legs' to this.

Pat
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Colin P on June 11, 2015, 11:18:44
Actually I like the navy league uniform, practical and you look like a sailor

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Fca93w842Ja0%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&hash=92b88b232b059722fd7657c5c42fb747)
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Underway on June 11, 2015, 12:49:51
Read the last summary of the Dress Committee (or whatever its called).  Removal of 3B's was not on there.  Most of the talk centred around (from memory, so there might be errors in this list):

-modifications to the pocket placement on the NCD's, adding a new pocket to the pants lower down, making pockets bigger to fit in anti-flash etc...
-removal of the stitched pants seam as its very irritating to kneel on,
-putting the Naval Ensign on the shoulder of the NCD's for better navy recognition,  labelling on the NCD that just says NAVY (opposite nametag I think, this one is sketch in my memory)
-have the Sea Service Insignia first level go to 180 days, vice 1 year
-adding trade badges to NCD's (I think, can't remember this one clearly),
-a rejection of getting a camo design for the Navy because the chiefs think that being mistaken for a bus driver, pilot, commissionaire, security guard or anything but a sailor is preferable to being recognized as military  :facepalm: (sorry personal opinion snuck in there, my bad)
-moving rank to front chest (like CADPAT) for some uniforms because backpacks and other gear cover the shoulders obscuring rank
-reorg who is on the committee for dress (removal of Fleet Chiefs IIRC and adding NavRes Chief to match navy's new organizational structure or somesuch)

There was some other stuff as well that I can't remember.  Just to emphasize that a lot of this stuff was just discussion in the minutes of the meeting, not necessarily actionable or actioned.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 11, 2015, 12:54:08
Until anything comes to pass, it's all scuttlebutt.   True.  The seam issue is correct.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Halifax Tar on June 11, 2015, 13:22:33
Actually I like the navy league uniform, practical and you look like a sailor

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Fca93w842Ja0%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&hash=92b88b232b059722fd7657c5c42fb747)

Careful that kind of idea will get you defaulters around here ;)

-a rejection of getting a camo design for the Navy because the chiefs think that being mistaken for a bus driver, pilot, commissionaire, security guard or anything but a sailor is preferable to being recognized as military  :facepalm: (sorry personal opinion snuck in there, my bad)

I never understood why some people think we need to be "camed up" in the Navy.  You want to look like a sailor ?  I point you too Colin P's post. 
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Lumber on June 11, 2015, 13:46:27
...or its shipboard "bastardized" version when on duty, composed of the (work dress in the old days) dark NCD pants worn with the DEU white short sleeve shirt, to give the impression from affar that you are wearing your full DEU's.

I don't know how long it's been since you stood duty, but in the 4 years I've been in Halifax, I've never seen this. OOD always wears full NCDs, as he is required to respond to Fires and Floods.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Blackadder1916 on June 11, 2015, 14:10:42
. . .  and you look like a sailor


Sorry, it's just too easy.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Dipstick on June 11, 2015, 15:03:46
I don't know how long it's been since you stood duty, but in the 4 years I've been in Halifax, I've never seen this. OOD always wears full NCDs, as he is required to respond to Fires and Floods.

As someone who's stood OOD in the past few months, I can confirm this. The only exception is in some foreign ports, where brow staff/OOD need to be in DEU. In that case, there's always a fully qualified and NCD-wearing 2/3 OOD standing by for DC.

The only place I've seen the half-NCD half-DEU look is in some Wardrooms, where the XO wants to try and keep "Red Sea Rig" around without upsetting too many people by making them change their pants and shoes.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Halifax Tar on June 11, 2015, 15:09:28
Sorry, it's just too easy.

I was hoping nobody noticed that lol ;)
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Underway on June 11, 2015, 16:20:17
Careful that kind of idea will get you defaulters around here ;)

I never understood why some people think we need to be "camed up" in the Navy.  You want to look like a sailor ?  I point you too Colin P's post.

May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies do as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating.  The only uniform that is instantly recognized as Navy is the whites, (thank you Top Gun).  Even DEU's look like civi pilot uniforms.  If they brought back square rig that would surely help for NCM's.  Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT

Edited for spelling and grammar...
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Dimsum on June 11, 2015, 17:10:43
May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies Due as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating. 

I have a bunch of friends/colleagues in the RAN and they rant that even in their uniform, they don't get recognized as sailors despite having the Naval ensign, trade badge, rank badge, ship's badge (not crest) and RAN badge on it.  The RAAF did a switch to blue "camouflage" for branding purposes as well, but I'd say most members of the public would only know that they're "not Army".

Of course, then there are the old jokes about the new USN uniform and whether they're supposed to be camouflaged against the sea, or just purposely trying to lose people during Man Overboard, etc.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Privateer on June 11, 2015, 17:12:39
May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern.

Consider the procurement gong show in the US military driven by the desire of each branch to have its own unique cam pattern.  Blueberry cam (a la USN) is useless operationally, unless you are doing battle in a Pop Tart factory.  If RCN pers are working in an environment where they need actual camouflage (and not just a working dress that can be satisfied by overalls) then they should use the CF issued CADPAT.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: milnews.ca on June 11, 2015, 17:25:15
Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT
Could always be worse  >:D
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcps-static.rovicorp.com%2F3%2FJPG_400%2FMI0000%2F666%2FMI0000666758.jpg&hash=22d51694bec0295dec3779640e78ad50)
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 11, 2015, 17:27:05
Consider the procurement gong show in the US military driven by the desire of each branch to have its own unique cam pattern.  Blueberry cam (a la USN) is useless operationally, unless you are doing battle in a Pop Tart factory.  If RCN pers are working in an environment where they need actual camouflage (and not just a working dress that can be satisfied by overalls) then they should use the CF issued CADPAT.

 :goodpost:

Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: quadrapiper on June 11, 2015, 17:34:46
Suspect part of the branding issue might be the fluidity of RCN Mk. 1-MARCOM(green)-MARCOM(DEU)-RCN Mk. 2; the general public might have a dim notion of what a "sailor" looks like, but it's likely RCN Mk. 1 or USN-esque, this being compounded by geography and years of semi-invisibility on the part of the CF. Have been asked, in NCDs without the jacket, if I'm a police officer, and in DEU (pre-curl, though I doubt it makes a difference) if I'm a fireman.

From a PR perspective, ops in Afghanistan haven't helped either.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 11, 2015, 20:41:25
From what I gather, what is proposed to go is the # 3 Service Dress order.  Office and shipboard dress will be NCD, unless you're required to be wearing DEU.  But as I say, it's all scuttlebutt at the moment.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!
I absolutely hate the idea of NCD for regular wear ashore. JFC it is for use when you are at sea doing the business. We do not go to action stations, fight fires , or board ships when we are in the office environment. This is an absolutely stupid idea.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 11, 2015, 21:08:35
LOL, I don't imagine this idea will gain any traction.  There are too many Officer types out there such as yourself FSTO who abhor the thought.  Still, it's fun to see your heads spinning ala Regan from the Exorcist. 

As I said earlier though, I will have the option in Ottawa and I will go, NCD.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Get Nautical on June 11, 2015, 21:48:43
I think camouflage on a naval uniform looks rather silly.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: George Wallace on June 11, 2015, 21:52:22
I think camouflage on a naval uniform looks rather silly.

Would you prefer Prison Orange (Safety reasons for Man Overboard and all)?
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: cupper on June 11, 2015, 22:17:55
But we all know that the purpose of camouflage is to not be seen.

See how well it works?
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 11, 2015, 22:32:03
LOL, I don't imagine this idea will gain any traction.  There are too many Officer types out there such as yourself FSTO who abhor the thought.  Still, it's fun to see your heads spinning ala Regan from the Exorcist. 

As I said earlier though, I will have the option in Ottawa and I will go, NCD.

Actually I'm afraid there are too few officers who abhor the thought of NCDs as office wear. Too many young officers today seem to be the type who would be comfortable walking downtown in their pajamas. Slobs are the lot of them I say.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Navy_Pete on June 11, 2015, 22:40:07
May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies do as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating.  The only uniform that is instantly recognized as Navy is the whites, (thank you Top Gun).  Even DEU's look like civi pilot uniforms.  If they brought back square rig that would surely help for NCM's.  Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT

Edited for spelling and grammar...

To be fair, a lot of Canadians don't know we have a Navy.  Recently checked CGCS to get the right NSN for the clothing stores in Ottawa; I think the list price for NCDs is closer to $600 for the pants, shirt and jacket; I think it's criminal that anyone riding a desk is wearing those, particularily when there always seemed to be a shortage of common sizes everytime I went to clothing stores in Halifax.  Also, the NCDs fit like a burlap sack with room for two around the waist, and while comfortable, look sloppy.  S&Ps look pretty sharp, are reasonably comfortable, and anytime you deal with civilians, you look professional.  And probably cost about $25 for the shirt and pants.  Seems like a no brainer to me.

At the end of the day, if someone can't tell you are in the Navy when you have a great big shiny anchor in the middle of your hat badge and Canada on your shoulder, I don't think NCDs will make a difference.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 11, 2015, 22:47:42
Actually I'm afraid there are too few officers who abhor the thought of NCDs as office wear. Too many young officers today seem to be the type who would be comfortable walking downtown in their pajamas. Slobs are the lot of them I say.

NCD don't have to be sloppy.  If they're clean, pressed and the boots polished properly they can look professional enough.  It's not a fashion show.  I have seen many as well who are not presentable in S&P.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 11, 2015, 23:08:02
NCD don't have to be sloppy.  If they're clean, pressed and the boots polished properly they can look professional enough.  It's not a fashion show.  I have seen many as well who are not presentable in S&P.

Certain folks can look like a bag of crap in an Armani suit I agree. But as pointed out above, cost alone should preclude NCD's for use in shore billets. If I had my way, NCD's would be worn only by personnel who are drawing sea pay.
For a site that constantly decries the wasteful spending of limited defence funds, you would think that the unnecessary wearing of expensive kit in offices would draw howls of rage from the anti buttons and bows crowd.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Navy_Pete on June 11, 2015, 23:17:50
I think it depends on your build; I'm tall and lanky, so the 46" wide shirt going straight down looks awful jammed into my 32" waist, and the various pleats, folds etc to try and get it tapered never last more then a few minutes of walking around.  At least with the various DEUs I can get the shirts tailored.  The new shirts are better though, but still a lot of room for additional 'command presence'.

They are a great uniform for ship board use though; the fire protection really works well and will make a massive difference if you get stuck in a bad spot and need to evacuate through a fire.  There is videos of the testing they did on old used pairs that had gone through significant washes, exposure to POLs etc and was still pretty effective at resisting direct flame for limited periods, which is what it's supposed to do.

They are pretty expensive though; I'd prefer they be limited to ships and other limited units like the DC school where they are required, so you don't have sailors exiled to CubeLand running them through unecessary wear and tear rather then personnel on ships, as we know they won't actually increase any budget to buy more  NCDs if someone changes their unit dress policy on a whim. 
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: donaldk on June 11, 2015, 23:27:00
FSTO, I am one of those naughty officers that prefers NCDs despite being posted ashore at an office.  Often I have to go into Irving (which is a mess), some ship getting the MHP mods, and in quick fire meet with a contractor's senior management in Dartmouth - which involves a visit on the shop floor (rendering most times N3's unsafe as per their regs).  The time in my office suite is minimal juggling emails, putting out fire ensuring the warehouses are happily humming for FELEX, and setting up meetings/VTCs.  I have done the change parade thing between the two and it eats up a considerable amount of time on some days.

Now if I was posted as an Admiral's flag officer... well I would certainly be at the proper order of dress for the situation without question, and burning through my Logistik points like mad  >:D .

If the navy does away with N3s, they certainly need to up the quality on the N5s, I still have problems with buttons randomly falling off, hems coming undone, and collars fraying with the latest rev of NCDs under gentle usage (when I was a stoker I blew through so many NCD sets with harsher working conditions).  The only issues I have with my N3s is they yellow in no time at the collar, fit like a mumu, and are a PITA to keep white (sure I can bleach them every wash, which will wear them out much faster).  The keeping white problem is why I only have my DEU heavy jacket in a custom size, otherwise I would be non-stop at the tailors getting replacements.

To end off with the crowd, thanks for the rumor mill smoke but until it hits the dress committee's minutes or an order is out - it is rumor.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on June 11, 2015, 23:39:05
I am going to fully support FTSO here.

We must bear in mind that  Navies, unlike the Army or Air Force, have a diplomatic role to play in peace time and in their actual daily work. As a result of the fact that we constantly meet and work around other nations on the neutral ground that is the sea, and the fact that  we meet one another, host one another and "represent" our own countries in the eye of foreign nations on a continual basis, ALL nations have developed a code of conduct and of image projection in the world. And that image does not include the shore based personnel looking like a bunch of mechanics going to work (my apologies to the Mar Eng's of this world). I ask you to look at pictures of the shore based naval personal of any nation and I guarantee you will see that in 99.99% of there cases, they re working and appearing in the equivalent of our DEU's - not in their shipboard rig, regardless of how tacky that shipboard dress' camouflage look is (for the USN ).

And I fully agree that Navies don't need camouflage pattern clothing.

Also, just a question here, when did OOD become part of the Damage control rapid response ????? If the OOD is getting down and dirty fighting the fire or flood, he/she is not doing his/her job of thinking the problem through and being the overall coordinator.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: quadrapiper on June 12, 2015, 02:18:32
The incredible cost of NCDs and CADPAT, and the multiplicity of working environments that're too dirty or active for No. 1, too "business" for coveralls, and too threat-free for NCD or CADPAT, suggest a need for a pan-CF working uniform.

Sturdy pants, perhaps with cargo pockets; a sturdy shirt; and a coat on the jean jacket/CANEX jacket/old corduroy-collared coat spectrum. Allow mix and match with No. 1 and 5 footwear, more serious outerwear, accoutrements, and headdress as the situation requires/command dictates/the member chooses. Make the pants and coat out of whatever cotton blend Carharrt uses, and the shirt out of something comfortable and hard-wearing. Either dye it per element (per practice with battledress) or go with tan/khaki; both the CA and RCN have used that colour in the past; not sure about the RCAF - quite sure the RAF did, though.

Issue it to everyone that doesn't actually need combat-ready or aircrew kit.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: E.R. Campbell on June 12, 2015, 07:17:06
To be fair, a lot of Canadians don't know we have a Navy.  Recently checked CGCS to get the right NSN for the clothing stores in Ottawa; I think the list price for NCDs is closer to $600 for the pants, shirt and jacket; I think it's criminal that anyone riding a desk is wearing those, particularily when there always seemed to be a shortage of common sizes everytime I went to clothing stores in Halifax.  Also, the NCDs fit like a burlap sack with room for two around the waist, and while comfortable, look sloppy.  S&Ps look pretty sharp, are reasonably comfortable, and anytime you deal with civilians, you look professional.  And probably cost about $25 for the shirt and pants.  Seems like a no brainer to me.

At the end of the day, if someone can't tell you are in the Navy when you have a great big shiny anchor in the middle of your hat badge and Canada on your shoulder, I don't think NCDs will make a difference.


Agreed, fully, and it applies equally to army combat uniforms in HQs.

Sixty years ago everyone knew what a Canadian military uniform represented. That had nothing to do with the shape, colour or cut of the uniform; it was because just 70 years ago one person in 12, about one youngish man in four had worn one of those uniforms in WWII. By the 1970s our national institutional memory was wearing down ... the men and women who had worn uniforms still knew who we were, even though the colour and cut of our uniforms had changed, but their parents were dead. Now there are precious few of those who who wore uniforms in WWII alive ... we, and the people we serve are disconnected and the uniform style is not the problem ... in fact I'm not certain it even is a problem.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Chief Engineer on June 12, 2015, 08:50:06
I am going to fully support FTSO here.

We must bear in mind that  Navies, unlike the Army or Air Force, have a diplomatic role to play in peace time and in their actual daily work. As a result of the fact that we constantly meet and work around other nations on the neutral ground that is the sea, and the fact that  we meet one another, host one another and "represent" our own countries in the eye of foreign nations on a continual basis, ALL nations have developed a code of conduct and of image projection in the world. And that image does not include the shore based personnel looking like a bunch of mechanics going to work (my apologies to the Mar Eng's of this world). I ask you to look at pictures of the shore based naval personal of any nation and I guarantee you will see that in 99.99% of there cases, they re working and appearing in the equivalent of our DEU's - not in their shipboard rig, regardless of how tacky that shipboard dress' camouflage look is (for the USN ).

And I fully agree that Navies don't need camouflage pattern clothing.

Also, just a question here, when did OOD become part of the Damage control rapid response ????? If the OOD is getting down and dirty fighting the fire or flood, he/she is not doing his/her job of thinking the problem through and being the overall coordinator.

The OOD in home or foreign port is one of the members of the RRT and actively conducts rapid response on a fire before heading to the command postion. This has been occuring for as long as I can remember.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Chief Engineer on June 12, 2015, 09:03:47
Honestly I never heard of the Salt and Peppers going away, it wasn't in the dress minutes I recently read and you may think it would be if slated to go away. I like Salt and Peppers, when I do need to wear them they look sharp and protray a professional look. As for NCD's I think they are fine the way they are, if the public can't see the anchor we wear on them and make the connection we are Navy then they need to smarten up. Seems to me a nice set of fire resistant coveralls at sea should be in order, probably be less money then replacing a $600 set of NCD's and probably last longer as long as they don't source them from logistik.

Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Dipstick on June 12, 2015, 10:02:18
The OOD in home or foreign port is one of the members of the RRT and actively conducts rapid response on a fire before heading to the command postion. This has been occuring for as long as I can remember.

I did an exchange with the RNZN for a while - in that Navy, the OOD (who was typically dressed in full uniform with jacket and tie) would head straight to a command position and make pipes. They described this to me as the "proper commonwealth way", and were quite surprised to hear that we did it any differently. We must have conducted DC similarily at some point in the past.

Based on said exchange, and on what I know of some of HM's other Naval Services, we're already fairly relaxed in our dress standard. As another example, I once asked to wear Salt and Pepper vice Whites during the summer in NZ; I was told this was a "Rating's rig", and not formal enough for officers to wear (again, cue the shock when I told them we consider it fairly "dressed up"). We also had to be in DEU whilst entering and leaving harbour, and the boatswains all had a spare set of whites/medals that they wore while line handling.

All that to say, I think we've managed to strike a pretty good balance between common sense and formality here in the RCN. To full-on remove what is essentially our business casual dress, and have us sit at desks, attend meetings, and conduct shore business in ill-fitting blue work shirts and cargo pants is pushing it, IMHO.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 12, 2015, 10:37:07
Actually I like the navy league uniform, practical and you look like a sailor

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Fca93w842Ja0%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&hash=92b88b232b059722fd7657c5c42fb747)

Are you talking about the chap on the left of the pic?  Seems like there is a shortage of nametags and ab-masters at that location.   :blotto:
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on June 12, 2015, 10:45:14
Are you talking about the chap on the left of the pic?  Seems like there is a shortage of nametags and ab-masters at that location.   :blotto:

To their discharge, and also to their credit, Navy League "officers" are volunteer parents, not members of the CF, not even of the Cadet Instructors Cadre.

I don't know if the Air Cadets or Army Cadets have anything similar to the Navy League Cadets: These are younger kids of an age that is below the age at which they can joint the Sea Cadets Corps. It is a fully volunteer and fully independent movement more akin to the cub scouts. The CF provides no support whatsoever to these corps except, sometimes but not in all cases, providing access to armouries/Naval reserve units or agreeing to co-locate the NL corps with an actual sea cadet corps.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: captloadie on June 12, 2015, 10:52:30
I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Dimsum on June 12, 2015, 10:56:19
I did an exchange with the RNZN for a while - in that Navy, the OOD (who was typically dressed in full uniform with jacket and tie) would head straight to a command position and make pipes. They described this to me as the "proper commonwealth way", and were quite surprised to hear that we did it any differently. We must have conducted DC similarily at some point in the past.

Based on said exchange, and on what I know of some of HM's other Naval Services, we're already fairly relaxed in our dress standard. As another example, I once asked to wear Salt and Pepper vice Whites during the summer in NZ; I was told this was a "Rating's rig", and not formal enough for officers to wear (again, cue the shock when I told them we consider it fairly "dressed up"). We also had to be in DEU whilst entering and leaving harbour, and the boatswains all had a spare set of whites/medals that they wore while line handling.

All that to say, I think we've managed to strike a pretty good balance between common sense and formality here in the RCN. To full-on remove what is essentially our business casual dress, and have us sit at desks, attend meetings, and conduct shore business in ill-fitting blue work shirts and cargo pants is pushing it, IMHO.

Interesting, because my RAN colleagues said that they are closer to us in the dress department (DPNU at sea vice Service Dress, etc.) 

Then again, the Aussies (RAAF and Army, perhaps Navy?) have a "DEU 3B with Medals" ceremonial dress that they wear for ANZAC Day, while we sweat in our DEU 1s.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Dipstick on June 12, 2015, 11:11:07
I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

Yes, RCN personnel in RCAF/CA units where operational clothing is worn are to wear NCD. Something about protecting Naval identity.

However, inside the RCN proper, DEU 3B (salt and pepper) is almost always dress of the day for PO2 and up. A dress policy change like the one being discussed here would not impact sailors like the ones you work with; rather, it would be a pretty fundamental change for Chiefs, POs, and Officers on the coasts.

Interesting, because my RAN colleagues said that they are closer to us in the dress department (DPNU at sea vice Service Dress, etc.) 

My only experience with the RAN was one day in an ANZAC on a cross-deck. I didn't depart with them (I was boat transferred) so I didn't see what they wore leaving. Quite a few officers were wearing whites with shorts when I got there, though. We wore NCD/GWD at sea in the RNZN too, we just weren't allowed to put it on until we were away from shore.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Colin P on June 12, 2015, 11:14:28
The person that came up with blue camouflage for sailors, should be taken out, shot, revived and then shot again.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on June 12, 2015, 11:17:46
I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

Now I am confused. I was under the impression that the RCN/RCF/CA thing was just renaming the old commands. How, then, did Comd RCN gain the authority to tell members of the CF what to wear when working for another command just because they happen to have been given a Navy DEU when they joined?

I mean, shouldn't what a Master Seaman Supply Tech posted to an Air Base wear be the dress of the day ordered by Comd RCAF, and likely delegated to the base commander? If a Petty officer cook is posted to an Army unit and it goes in the field, should that unit's CO not make arrangement for the cook to get into  CADPAT? And should it not be that  CO's decision - not Comd RCN?
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on June 12, 2015, 11:20:48
The person that came up with blue camouflage for sailors, should be taken out, shot, revived and then shot again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5gwfjQEQ84
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 12, 2015, 11:26:17
I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

That whole mess was due to RCN pers posted to Army or RCAF bases and the question about their entitlement to wear Cadpat (Army) or what ever the hell the RCAF call their pajamas.
This debate is a result of a rumour coming out of the Operational ( ::) east) coast that everyone will wear NCD's all the time. IMO this is as stupid and wasteful as pilots wearing flight suits as everyday wear even though they haven't seen the inside of a cockpit for years.

Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Dipstick on June 12, 2015, 11:51:36
Now I am confused. I was under the impression that the RCN/RCF/CA thing was just renaming the old commands. How, then, did Comd RCN gain the authority to tell members of the CF what to wear when working for another command just because they happen to have been given a Navy DEU when they joined?

I mean, shouldn't what a Master Seaman Supply Tech posted to an Air Base wear be the dress of the day ordered by Comd RCAF, and likely delegated to the base commander? If a Petty officer cook is posted to an Army unit and it goes in the field, should that unit's CO not make arrangement for the cook to get into  CADPAT? And should it not be that  CO's decision - not Comd RCN?

This was ordered via VCDS CANFORGEN in 2009:

"ACCORDINGLY, CF MEMBERS ENTITLED TO THE NAVAL DISTINCTIVE ENVIRONMENTAL UNIFORM (DEU) ARE HEREBY DIRECTED TO WEAR NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD) IN LIEU OF CADPAT, WHERE THE CADPAT IS PERMITTED BY COMDS AND CO S AS THE DRESS OF THE DAY. EXCEPTIONS TO THIS CANFORGEN ARE PERMITTED FOR VALID OPERATIONAL REASONS ONLY, INCL EMPL IN ACTUAL FIELD OPS, FIELD TRG ACTIVITIES OR OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS"
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on June 12, 2015, 11:56:19
Now, a VCDS CANFORGEN makes more sense.

Thank You.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: PuckChaser on June 12, 2015, 12:01:57
Was it signed by the VCDS? I thought the last line in it was COMD RCN SENDS.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Dipstick on June 12, 2015, 12:16:53
Was it signed by the VCDS? I thought the last line in it was COMD RCN SENDS.

I just looked it up. The OPI is listed as VCDS, the title is "CANFORGEN 198/09 VCDS 031 191500Z NOV 09", and what I posted above was the last thing it says. That said, I have no doubt that Comd RCN (CMS I guess in 2009) was the driving force behind the direction, with VCDS signing so that it would apply to people outside the Navy's purview.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: PuckChaser on June 12, 2015, 14:40:09
Ack, thanks. Away from DWAN so couldn't fact check my memory myself.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 12, 2015, 14:43:58
This debate is a result of a rumour coming out of the Operational ( ::) east) coast that everyone will wear NCD's all the time. IMO this is as stupid and wasteful as pilots wearing flight suits as everyday wear even though they haven't seen the inside of a cockpit for years.

The  ::) east coast doesn't have the market cornered on silly ideas and rumors to be fair.  I have been subjected to plenty of  ::) decisions arising from the left coast with their decisions on training etc.  Not to mention,  ::) ::) the puzzle palace, where I am headed next.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Underway on June 12, 2015, 15:36:54
I just looked it up. The OPI is listed as VCDS, the title is "CANFORGEN 198/09 VCDS 031 191500Z NOV 09", and what I posted above was the last thing it says. That said, I have no doubt that Comd RCN (CMS I guess in 2009) was the driving force behind the direction, with VCDS signing so that it would apply to people outside the Navy's purview.

This created some interesting conflicts within some Army commands with attached Navy personelle.  LFCA Comd would have none of it at the time and all navy pers were required to draw and wear CADPAT every day despite the msg and the navy pers respectful protestations and waiving of the CANFORGEN.

SSI at 180 days is confirmed.  Just saw the msg and some pers are already receiving/authorized to get their gunmetals.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: cupper on June 12, 2015, 21:18:41
The  ::) east coast doesn't have the market cornered on silly ideas and rumors to be fair.  I have been subjected to plenty of  ::) decisions arising from the left coast with their decisions on training etc.  Not to mention,  ::) ::) the puzzle palace, where I am headed next.

Before you head to Ottawa you should get your eyes checked. You seem to have some sort of nervous tic thing going on.  >:D
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pat in Halifax on June 13, 2015, 07:31:14
I thought that CANFORGEN was for the Naval Centennial year only. I recall the Stewards (then) in Borden fighting a lost battle with Command there for a very short time.
Again, Flt Chief is back Monday-I will attempt to clarify this.

Pat
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Harrigan on June 14, 2015, 01:11:16
Blueberry cam (a la USN) is useless operationally, unless you are doing battle in a Pop Tart factory. 

I need a new keyboard now.  Thank you for that!   ;D

Harrigan
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Harrigan on June 14, 2015, 01:17:18
May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies do as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating.  The only uniform that is instantly recognized as Navy is the whites, (thank you Top Gun).  Even DEU's look like civi pilot uniforms.  If they brought back square rig that would surely help for NCM's.  Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT

Edited for spelling and grammar...

For what its worth, it seems to me the new RCAF leather jacket has improved the "brand" in the public eye at least.  For all its shortcomings, the public has been led to expect (yes, by Top Gun and the like) that pilots (who apparently are 100% of the RCAF) to be in a leather jacket.  I am not casting judgement on the jacket per se, just that it likely seems more natural to the civvies in my opinion. 

I have always thought that the Navy uniforms have always looked sharp (though I have always wondered how wearing ballcaps in uniform in town is allowed)

Harrigan
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pat in Halifax on June 14, 2015, 09:15:20
I have always thought that the Navy uniforms have always looked sharp (though I have always wondered how wearing ballcaps in uniform in town is allowed)

Harrigan

That is why they are referred to as ship's caps (in the proper sense). Why would we wear a ball cap-We are not playing ball! All that sad, I am pretty sure that was brought in as the ship's cap provides for a Unit identifier and in many cases, that is a pride piece; otherwise the salt and pepper version has no Unit and though the NCD jacket does, you need to be 6" away to see the Unit and even then, some might be a tad obscure (CCFL/P, CFNES/OS, FMF etc) unless of course you are an old salt like some on here and can identify ship's crests from a distance. Again even then....for a while we had three ships with the same/similar crest only a different colour; OTTAWA, TORONTO and GATINEAU.

Pat
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: E.R. Campbell on June 14, 2015, 16:33:36
Harrigan: for several years I wore a cap like this ~

     (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmpmuseum.org%2Fpostuniform%2Fhats%2Fbushh.jpg&hash=5bb33dabc53bdc47d1f7f61919cc66c2)
     Canadian Army "bush" cap - standard issue from 1950 until about 1965.

          ~ my cap badge was different, but it was a cloth cap with an "identifier" on it, not all that different from a "ship's cap" today. It was practical, comfortable and 'smart,' what uniforms ought to be.

My only objection to sailors wearing NCDs in offices and, equally, to soldiers wearing CADPAT combat uniforms in their offices is cost: as someone else said, a cotton shirt, a pair of gabardine trousers and a pair of issue oxfords or ankle boots costs a HUGE amount less than NCDs or combats ~ we don't need to waste that money trying to make people "feel" more operational.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Rifleman62 on June 14, 2015, 16:51:04
Ah, the Bush Cap, with tabbed flaps to be dropped to shield the back of the neck from the sun (never, ever saw/used that). The flap would be starched flat and then folded and ironed into a sharp crease at the top.

The purchased stiffener (emplaced, then the cap immersed in water) to give a stretched smooth look and slightly curved brill, followed by the ironing of the flap.

And the purchased aluminum small pack/ammo pouch frames to give a squared off, smart look to the fighting order on parade.

The old peace-time army with some in authority running amuck. ;D
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: E.R. Campbell on June 14, 2015, 16:58:48
Ah, the Bush Cap, with tabbed flaps to be dropped to shield the back of the neck from the sun (never, ever saw/used that). The flap would be starched flat and then folded and ironed into a sharp crease at the top.

The purchased stiffener (emplaced, then the cap immersed in water) to give a stretched smooth look and slightly curved brill, followed by the ironing of the flap.

And the purchased aluminum small pack/ammo pouch frames to give a squared off, smart look to the fighting order on parade.

The old peace-time army with some in authority running amuck. ;D


True ... especially in Depot and so on, but some (maybe even many) RSMs and CSMs were far more interested in tactical/operational skills and knowledge and in working equipment and in seeing spit shone boots day-in and day-out. We still had spit shone boots, and we could square bash with any army, anywhere, any time, but we could also outdo almost any army, anywhere, any time at soldiering in the field. I can recall, very well, polishing - spit polishing - the (leather) soles of my boots (I did my junior NCO course with the Guards) and so on, I can also recall wiping the floor in an international patrol competition with the best that NATO could send our way.


And garrison dress was bush pants, shirt, high neck sweater in fall/winter/spring, bush cap (year 'round in some units) and jump smock (for those authorized) or parka shell when the weather required them. We managed to look smart and be comfortable at the same time ... despite having old kit.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Old Sweat on June 14, 2015, 16:59:44
Ah, the Bush Cap, with tabbed flaps to be dropped to shield the back of the neck from the sun (never, ever saw/used that). The flap would be starched flat and then folded and ironed into a sharp crease at the top.

The purchased stiffener (emplaced, then the cap immersed in water) to give a stretched smooth look and slightly curved brill, followed by the ironing of the flap.

And the purchased aluminum small pack/ammo pouch frames to give a squared off, smart look to the fighting order on parade.

The old peace-time army with some in authority running amuck. ;D

Don't forget the piece of coat hanger wire used to stiffen the brim. By the way, the shirt in the photo is not contemporary as the issue shirt had epaulettes plus two buttons just below the collar to keep it flat by doing up each side of the collar against the shirt body when not wearing a tie.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Fishbone Jones on June 14, 2015, 18:20:30
Harrigan: for several years I wore a cap like this ~

     (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmpmuseum.org%2Fpostuniform%2Fhats%2Fbushh.jpg&hash=5bb33dabc53bdc47d1f7f61919cc66c2)
     Canadian Army "bush" cap - standard issue from 1950 until about 1965.

          ~ my cap badge was different, but it was a cloth cap with an "identifier" on it, not all that different from a "ship's cap" today. It was practical, comfortable and 'smart,' what uniforms ought to be.


'Smarter' if you blocked it with a 'birdcage' ;)
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Harrigan on June 14, 2015, 18:27:50

My only objection to sailors wearing NCDs in offices and, equally, to soldiers wearing CADPAT combat uniforms in their offices is cost: as someone else said, a cotton shirt, a pair of gabardine trousers and a pair of issue oxfords or ankle boots costs a HUGE amount less than NCDs or combats ~ we don't need to waste that money trying to make people "feel" more operational.

I agree completely on the NCDs/CADPATs in offices from a cost perspective. 

Harrigan
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 14, 2015, 18:55:09
[quote author=E.R. Campbell link=topic=119615.msg1372631#msg1372631 date=1434310416
       
My only objection to sailors wearing NCDs in offices and, equally, to soldiers wearing CADPAT combat uniforms in their offices is cost: as someone else said, a cotton shirt, a pair of gabardine trousers and a pair of issue oxfords or ankle boots costs a HUGE amount less than NCDs or combats ~ we don't need to waste that money trying to make people "feel" more operational.
[/quote]

That is reason why I am so hard over against wearing NCD/CBTS/Flight suits in the office environments. You are in the the Canadian Armed Forces for christ sake. If wearing a certain piece of clothing is what is required to make people more effective supporting the lads and lassies at the coal face, then we as a profession are really FUBAR'd and is in dire need of a major reset.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Harrigan on June 14, 2015, 21:46:19
Are we sure that everyone in Ottawa is allowed to wear NCDs/CADPAT/Flight Suits?  My understanding was that one had to wear DEUs within NDHQ, but the operational clothing was allowed at CJOC (as the Operational HQ)?  Certainly all of the folks I have met at 101 Colonel By were in DEU's.

Alos, perhaps a more valid question is why it costs $600 plus for a set of CADPATs.  That seems ridiculously costly to me, though I am no fashion expert.

Harrigan
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Ostrozac on June 14, 2015, 22:03:21
Are we sure that everyone in Ottawa is allowed to wear NCDs/CADPAT/Flight Suits?  My understanding was that one had to wear DEUs within NDHQ, but the operational clothing was allowed at CJOC (as the Operational HQ)?  Certainly all of the folks I have met at 101 Colonel By were in DEU's.

Alos, perhaps a more valid question is why it costs $600 plus for a set of CADPATs.  That seems ridiculously costly to me, though I am no fashion expert.

Harrigan

Ottawa these days is about 50-50 on what to wear to work. Different chains of command pass on their own dress standards at the 30 or so worksites we have in the NCR (Ottawa is way more than 101 Colonel By and Startop). I twice worked downtown in the main NDHQ building (101) -- for two different units -- both times my dress of the day was Cadpat.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: George Wallace on June 14, 2015, 22:08:36
Ottawa these days is about 50-50 on what to wear to work. Different chains of command pass on their own dress standards at the 30 or so worksites we have in the NCR (Ottawa is way more than 101 Colonel By and Startop). I twice worked downtown in the main NDHQ building (101) -- for two different units -- both times my dress of the day was Cadpat.

It was that Sgts (Army) and below were permitted wearing CADPAT, depending on where they worked.  WO and above were to wear DEU, although there were exceptions when and where so employed.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 14, 2015, 22:24:03
And that is the policy at my future workplace in Gatineau (except exchange Naval for Army ranks/dress).
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: dangerboy on June 14, 2015, 23:20:12
When I visited DLR a few months ago, the majority of personal were wearing Cadpat.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: dapaterson on June 14, 2015, 23:36:36
When I visited DLR a few months ago, the majority of personal were wearing Cadpat.

DLR = Army = CADPAT

DGLEPM = ADM(Mat) = DEU


There are also a handful of gentlemen in DLR who appear to be trying out the extra-large maternity CADPAT, so wide is their girth.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pusser on June 15, 2015, 07:04:26
In addition to being a somewhat unique design in terms of cut and construction, CADPAT clothing also has anti-IR and flame resistance treatments that makes it much more expensive than conventional clothing.  These are the chief reasons it costs approximately $600.00 per set.  There are similar reasons contributing to the high price of NCDs.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Get Nautical on June 15, 2015, 19:29:59
A pair of blue Nomex (FR) coveralls at Marks will run you about $300 to $400, safety stuff isn't cheap.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pat in Halifax on June 15, 2015, 20:51:22
Actually the USN just began issue to its technicians for a fire retardant coverall for about $100 a pair. I am reviewing a BN a young fella put in for us to do an OPEVAL on them. The BN is at STS(A) right now. If I can find the link (again!), I will put it on here....after I talk to the Flt CPO about the title of this thread!

Pat
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Get Nautical on June 15, 2015, 21:06:34
*bulk deal 100 bucks or clothing quality 100 bucks (certain oilfield companys like Enbridge have a ban on Proban coveralls) http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Tech/racing-fire-suit-nomex-vs-proban (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Tech/racing-fire-suit-nomex-vs-proban)
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pat in Halifax on June 17, 2015, 11:48:10
From MARLANT Flt CPO:

"Pat

The plan is to move to a daily dress for all personnel from DEU to operational. ie: NCDs for daily wear on a daily basis."


I guess that's that
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pat in Halifax on June 17, 2015, 11:55:19
As well, in regard to the BN for shipboard coveralls for MSE personnel, an exerpt from the BN (NOte that this was the first draft):

The proposal is to adopt (Ship board only) for at-sea and alongside wear while employed within the MSE department, the US Naval pattern Flame Resistant Coveralls: (http://www.public.navy.mil/usff/Pages/frv.aspx). The optimal wear duration of 18-24 months is comparable to NCDs but the fact that this example is being massed produced for wear by all USN sailors means that the cost savings would likely be substantial if we were to ‘jump on the bandwagon’ in this procurement.  Ease of dressing and comfort for long term wear are touted as two examples of the further benefits these would afford.

Costs:   
NCD Shirt -                             $50.68
NCD Jacket -                     $148.81
NCD Pants -                           $105.85
Grey Coveralls -                  $39.77
Coveralls – FF -                    $142.00
(FF, Sub and NBP)

Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Navy_Pete on June 17, 2015, 13:46:16
From MARLANT Flt CPO:

"Pat

The plan is to move to a daily dress for all personnel from DEU to operational. ie: NCDs for daily wear on a daily basis."


I guess that's that

Is that a MARPAC/MARLANT issue or RCN wide?

Still wouldn't affect ADM(Mat) and other units outside RCN lines I guess, just seems like a giant waste of money when funds are tight.

Coveralls for on the ship would be great though; awesome to jump into quickly and pretty comfortable. 
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 17, 2015, 14:48:25
From MARLANT Flt CPO:

"Pat

The plan is to move to a daily dress for all personnel from DEU to operational. ie: NCDs for daily wear on a daily basis."


I guess that's that

FFS. Well then they can charge me for all I care. I'm in a bloody office ashore, this so god damn stupid on so many levels.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Rifleman62 on June 17, 2015, 15:25:38
Quote
The optimal wear duration of 18-24 months is comparable to NCDs but the fact that this example is being massed produced for wear by all USN sailors means that the cost savings would likely be substantial if we were to ‘jump on the bandwagon’ in this procurement. 

What are the chances of that do you think? ;D
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 17, 2015, 16:56:09
From MARLANT Flt CPO:

"Pat

The plan is to move to a daily dress for all personnel from DEU to operational. ie: NCDs for daily wear on a daily basis."


I guess that's that

Thank you for checking into the scuttlebutt.  Sometimes the rumours do have legs.  I wonder how long it will be until everyone on ship will be wearing coveralls?   I would wager it will spread to everyone eventually if they're more economical.  Once you open the door to one thing...
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 17, 2015, 17:37:31
Thank you for checking into the scuttlebutt.  Sometimes the rumours do have legs.  I wonder how long it will be until everyone on ship will be wearing coveralls?   I would wager it will spread to everyone eventually if they're more economical.  Once you open the door to one thing...

So I am still confused. Will everyone at the schools and headquarters be wearing NCD's as well? Officers and Chiefs?
Or is this just for CANFLTLANT personnel?
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Dimsum on June 17, 2015, 17:42:00
Thank you for checking into the scuttlebutt.  Sometimes the rumours do have legs.  I wonder how long it will be until everyone on ship will be wearing coveralls?   I would wager it will spread to everyone eventually if they're more economical.  Once you open the door to one thing...

Interesting. 

The RAN had overalls as shipboard dress for a while (a decade?).  They then changed them to the current blotchy 2-piece camo (DPNU - Disruptive Pattern Naval Uniform).  I guess they weren't that popular after all  ???
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 17, 2015, 18:49:22
So I am still confused. Will everyone at the schools and headquarters be wearing NCD's as well? Officers and Chiefs?
Or is this just for CANFLTLANT personnel?

I am at the DC Division at the moment.   I've always worn NCDs as I cannot get coveralls through the system.  That is my normal dress of the day.   I've just graduated from my 6B today, with the exception of the DC phase we were in S&P.  First time having that as dress of the day like that, ever.

Dress of the day for most of the instructors and students at CFNES, MSE-wise, is NCD.

If I read Pat's reply from the Fleet Chief correctly, it's going to apply to everyone.  Now how correct this is, and if so, how far beyond MARLANT's domain... :dunno: 

Hopefully, Pat will clarify things.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 17, 2015, 18:59:14
Interesting. 

The RAN had overalls as shipboard dress for a while (a decade?).  They then changed them to the current blotchy 2-piece camo (DPNU - Disruptive Pattern Naval Uniform).  I guess they weren't that popular after all  ???

IIRC, there was a trial some years past where a crew was wearing coveralls for the period.  From what I gather, they were well received overall with the exception of the ladies.  They found it to be a pain to wear for heads usage.  The idea of adoption was shot down by the upper echelons as they didn't like the idea of its appearance.  With zippered boots and coveralls,  close up times were vastly improved.   As it stands now the only sailors who wear them outside of the subs and NBP are my trade when they're with the HCR det.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: NavyShooter on June 17, 2015, 19:06:12
Fascinating.  I just got posted to DC Div....wonder how this will hit me....

Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Dimsum on June 17, 2015, 19:36:09
The idea of adoption was shot down by the upper echelons as they didn't like the idea of its appearance.  With zippered boots and coveralls,  close up times were vastly improved.   

Because operational clothing that will save your life should be adopted or not because of how they look.   :facepalm:
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 17, 2015, 19:50:52
Because operational clothing that will save your life should be adopted or not because of how they look.   :facepalm:

IIRC, the quote we heard was something like "sailors don't want zippers, they want buttons, shirts and trousers" as they reasons why the very highly placed folks said "no". 

Now to be truthful, our NCD are safe, they're just not as speedy to put on as coveralls are.  Each have their benefits and drawbacks, but I do know that overall we are the envy of most folks because we can wear them at sea while we're assigned as HCRFF.  We've since at least adopted side zippered hot weather sea boots which go along way towards speeding up close up times for action/emergency stations.  Small steps in the right direction.  All good.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 17, 2015, 19:53:09
Because operational clothing that will save your life should be adopted or not because of how they look.   :facepalm:

That madness started because some lazy bums wanted to be able to come into work in their work clothes. They weren't happy that they could come to work wearing civilian clothes, they certainly were not happy that they could come into work wearing N3's. They wanted to be able to come into work wearing their work clothes and not have to change. Didn't matter if they were bosn's, stokers, or stores (all trades who usually became dirty when they do their jobs), they felt it was too "inconvenient" for them to change when the work day was done.

So now we had a combat dress that has become "Walking Out Dress", which if MARLANT has its way will become "Office Attire".  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 17, 2015, 20:05:46
I beg to differ, FSTO.  Most guys and gals, don't want to come to work in uniform here in Halifax.  They wear civilian attire.  If I was to come in walking out dress it would be 3B, which I would then have to change into NCD to do my job.  That, is a pain in the a$$.  I don't want to be going into work/coming home dressed as the Good Humour Ice Cream Man, thank you very much.  If needs be, I'll dress in 3B once there, not before.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 17, 2015, 20:25:37
I have no issue with people coming into work wearing civilian attire. I do have an issue with people wearing soiled and wrinkled NCDs, faded caps and scuffed boots (and I know that you maintain a high standard of NCD).
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 17, 2015, 20:35:19
I have no issue with people coming into work wearing civilian attire. I do have an issue with people wearing soiled and wrinkled NCDs, faded caps and scuffed boots (and I know that you maintain a high standard of NCD).

I too have an issue with anyone looking like a bag o'rags, when they shouldn't be.  Agreed.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Dipstick on June 17, 2015, 20:50:12
I have no issue with people coming into work wearing civilian attire. I do have an issue with people wearing soiled and wrinkled NCDs, faded caps and scuffed boots (and I know that you maintain a high standard of NCD).

I was at an interdepartmental meeting in Ottawa just last week. Suits, ties, DEUs, and the one "operational" guy in fairly greasy looking, greenish NCDs.

Bring on the future, I say.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pat in Halifax on June 17, 2015, 21:26:33
This is the plan for Formation Halifax as far as I know. Who won't wear it, I don't know. It does seem a little odd though as it is not cost prohibitive and we just had issues last year changing people tiers for clothing points-essentially getting people out of NCDs if it was not a requirement of their job-now full reversal. I don't know what to say.

Keep in mind, the coverall thing is a completely separate issue. I have already been told that it probably wont fly.

Pat
3 weeks from today is my last day in uniform....Woo Hoo!
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: dapaterson on June 17, 2015, 21:37:21
The proposal is to adopt (Ship board only) for at-sea and alongside wear while employed within the MSE department, the US Naval pattern Flame Resistant Coveralls: (http://www.public.navy.mil/usff/Pages/frv.aspx). The optimal wear duration of 18-24 months is comparable to NCDs but the fact that this example is being massed produced for wear by all USN sailors means that the cost savings would likely be substantial if we were to ‘jump on the bandwagon’ in this procurement.  Ease of dressing and comfort for long term wear are touted as two examples of the further benefits these would afford.

We would not jump on the bandwagon, as Canadian procurement rules are clear: we will only by clothing items from Canadian suppliers.  Whoever the Good Idea fairy is needs to find a procuremetn specialist (I'd suggest contacting the folks running the NICE project) to get themselves informed about the rules before they start down a long and winding dead end.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 17, 2015, 21:44:21
Penny wise, dollar stupid.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 17, 2015, 21:55:58
This is the plan for Formation Halifax as far as I know. Who won't wear it, I don't know. It does seem a little odd though as it is not cost prohibitive and we just had issues last year changing people tiers for clothing points-essentially getting people out of NCDs if it was not a requirement of their job-now full reversal. I don't know what to say.

Keep in mind, the coverall thing is a completely separate issue. I have already been told that it probably wont fly.

Pat
3 weeks from today is my last day in uniform....Woo Hoo!


A couple of us had the West Coast Chief network investigate because they had not heard a thing about this initiative. Which says to me it is a MARLANT thing only (so far).
They came back saying there is some truth to this. But then a C1 came back and said there is no truth to this rumour and he wondered aloud at how some things like this get started.
(I'm worried about just how adamant he is; makes me think it's a sure thing.) >:(
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Privateer on June 17, 2015, 22:14:46
But you heard that to preserve heritage they're going to put the curl on the sleeves of the NCD, right?

Kidding
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pat in Halifax on June 18, 2015, 05:31:43
Again, this is MARLANT ONLY.
I'd be curious who the west coast C1 is. The Fleet Chief here is also currently A/Formation as well. I can tell you it is NOT rumour HERE. I am 4 cubicles down from the Fleet Chief's office and like it or not, agree with it or not, cost effective or not, it is indeed a fact. If you look closely you will be seeing more and more people especially in the dockyard, in NCDs.

And dap, I would be one of those "Good idea fairies" as I am one of the reviewers of said BN. Good point though, I do know someone quite well with NICE-I don't know why I didn't think about that earlier on....oh, and we have 'jumped on the bandwagon' in the past so there is some precedence.
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pusser on June 18, 2015, 06:23:38
And dap, I would be one of those "Good idea fairies" as I am one of the reviewers of said BN. Good point though, I do know someone quite well with NICE-I don't know why I didn't think about that earlier on....oh, and we have 'jumped on the bandwagon' in the past so there is some precedence.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.  Like it or not, procurement is not as simple as finding the best price and then simply saying "buy that."  There are is a plethora of rules, regulations and international agreements involved.  Whether the rules need to be as complicated as they are is another debate, but the fact is, they are and they need to be followed (unless you WANT to go to jail).  Do folks realize that even just talking to a supplier can lead the Department into a legally binding contract?  And if you don't have contracting authority, you can get yourself into big trouble.  Procurement is best left to the professionals.

What I find mind-boggling in all of this is that if everyone in the Navy starts wearing NCDs all the time, costs are going to skyrocket.  It will make the cost of the Executive Curl look like chump change.  Frankly, we should be looking at every job in the CF and asking whether they really need to be wearing anything other than service dress. 
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 18, 2015, 11:25:43
This created some interesting conflicts within some Army commands with attached Navy personelle.  LFCA Comd would have none of it at the time and all navy pers were required to draw and wear CADPAT every day despite the msg and the navy pers respectful protestations and waiving of the CANFORGEN.

Those people should read Chap 1 Para 8 (going from memory...) of the Dress Instructions then.  8)
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Pat in Halifax on June 20, 2015, 05:37:58
If nothing else, it would appear I clarified the question in the thread title anyway!!!

Pat
Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: FSTO on June 26, 2015, 18:15:06
I was talking to the MARPAC UCPO today. He flat out stated that this proposal is not being implemented. End of story.

Title: Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
Post by: Privateer on June 26, 2015, 20:09:38
As much as these stories ever end...