Army.ca Forums

The Newsroom => Military Current Affairs & News => Topic started by: Jarnhamar on July 16, 2016, 00:43:53

Title: Royal Canadian Air Force headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 16, 2016, 00:43:53
Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general

Staff edit: IAW Site Policy. (https://navy.ca/forums/index.php/topic,99046.0.html)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MilEME09 on July 16, 2016, 04:23:13
As cynical as it is, given the security situation in both possible locations for this "peacekeeping" operation, I wonder how the government will spin it when the first body comes back. Dozens of peacekeepers have been killed in the past few years. It's a fight against Islamic terrorist groups, this isn't peace keeping, its peace making.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on July 16, 2016, 04:30:53
As cynical as it is, given the security situation in both possible locations for this "peacekeeping" operation, I wonder how the government will spin it when the first body comes back. Dozens of peacekeepers have been killed in the past few years. It's a fight against Islamic terrorist groups, this isn't peace keeping, its peace making.

Hopefully they won't sweep it under the rug, or relegate it to some back page in the news.  That being said, I think social media will aid in avoiding both.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on July 16, 2016, 04:35:21
As cynical as it is, given the security situation in both possible locations for this "peacekeeping" operation, I wonder how the government will spin it when the first body comes back. Dozens of peacekeepers have been killed in the past few years. It's a fight against Islamic terrorist groups, this isn't peace keeping, its peace making.
Hopefully they don't ban media from the repatriation ceremony.

On another note, who thought it would be the peacenik liberals sending the army into combat? I didn't support them for that but it's been a great bonus.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on July 16, 2016, 04:45:53
Hopefully they don't ban media from the repatriation ceremony.

On another note, who thought it would be the peacenik liberals sending the army into combat? I didn't support them for that but it's been a great bonus.

Who said anything about combat?  No one has seen the ROE for this mission, and I'm willing to eat my hat if the ROE becomes the same as OP ATHENA in Afghanistan.  Peacekeeping and combat are two totally different things.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on July 16, 2016, 05:16:45
Who said anything about combat?  No one has seen the ROE for this mission, and I'm willing to eat my hat if the ROE becomes the same as OP ATHENA in Afghanistan.  Peacekeeping and combat are two totally different things.
Fair enough. I'm just going off the fact that Canada has been talking to France about how we would fit into one of their deployments in the region, and the french are not doing UN peacekeeping as much as they are peace making.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on July 16, 2016, 08:54:22
Canadian "peacekeepers" will live and die by the ROE. 

Let's hope they don't get sold out by the Government thinking that Kumbaya-like ROE will help shine "Sunny Ways" onto more parts of this planet.  :-\

G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 16, 2016, 08:56:12
Do you think they got any advice from Romeo Dallaire on that idea?
None at all.
Hopefully they don't ban media from the repatriation ceremony.

I disagree. I really hope they do ban media from the repatriation ceremony (or continue to do so).  Those ceremonies are for the honoured dead and their families in uniform and out. Not cameras turning it into a social media spectacle or political ammunition for our shitty politicians to fling poo at each other.

Who said anything about combat? 

Exactly. It's all in the wording and how the government portrays it. Our soldiers sailors and airmen could be in TICs every day but it's not combat, because combat is aggressive and scary and Canada is a nation of peacekeepers  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 16, 2016, 08:58:30
What France is doing in Africa has nothing much to do with keeping or making the peace or anything else except French perceptions of French interests. France does exactly what it wants, it asks no permission and it seeks no support ... it protects French interests as it and it alone perceives them.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on July 16, 2016, 09:26:29
... I really hope they do ban media from the repatriation ceremony (or continue to do so).  Those ceremonies are for the honoured dead and their families in uniform and out. Not cameras turning it into a social media spectacle or political ammunition for our shitty politicians to fling poo at each other ...
I agree this isn't a place for politics of ANY kind, overt or implied, and there's ZERO room for harrassing families in mourning. 

That said, if the military wants coverage of the good things it does, there's a case to be made for covering what's not good.  Also, it's Canada's military, so Canadians has some right (not the journalists) to bear witness to the ultimate sacrifice our troops can make, especially on behalf of Canadians.

Here's where I was on the issue ~10 years ago:
... As for the media's "right" to be there, yer damned if you do (media get to blow it up and hype the story), and yer damned if you don't (the media talk about "censorship", and go all papparazzo on the event). 

Personally, as long as it's respectful (that's what ground rules for attendance at events are for), I'm OK with media being there.  We complain if the media doesn't cover the military, so when they do, we have to live with the nasty as well as the good ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on July 16, 2016, 09:36:36
I agree this isn't a place for politics of ANY kind, overt or implied, and there's ZERO room for harrassing families in mourning. 

That said, if the military wants coverage of the good things it does, there's a case to be made for covering what's not good.  Also, it's Canada's military, so Canadians has some right (not the journalists) to bear witness to the ultimate sacrifice our troops can make, especially on behalf of Canadians.

Here's where I was on the issue ~10 years ago:

Agreed.  I think that media coverage of ramp ceremonies is a good "gut check" as to why we are doing what we do.  There may be some political footballing, but it will also make the public mourn with us and hopefully remember that we are there because of the government, which is elected by them.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 16, 2016, 09:50:10
Great post milnews.ca.

It's a really fine line between acknowledging and showing Canada the sacrifice it's soldiers (and their families) are making while remaining respectful and non-political.

It's a bit off topic but as you say 10 years ago I remember we learned a lesson really quick about what happens when the media broadcasted when we were gathering on the KAF airfield to send fallen soldiers home; specifically the Taliban would plan rocket attacks to coincide with the ceremonies to try and kill us while we're all gathered together.

I would hate to see ceremonies today become juicy targets for protestors and anyone else who wants media attention knowing that the media with their cameras will be covering the ceremonies in full force.


Back to the Africa mission I'm not sure where the government thinks we're getting all these soldiers but I'm glad to read this story. I've never been on a UN mission and much respect to everyone who has (understanding how shitty and painful they were) but this feels meaningful to me. 
Not knowing a deployment date means plenty of time to cry about black boots and green tacvests  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on July 16, 2016, 10:29:43
It's a really fine line between acknowledging and showing Canada the sacrifice it's soldiers (and their families) are making while remaining respectful and non-political.
Zackly - and that's why it can be tough to tightrope walk along.

I would hate to see ceremonies today become juicy targets for protestors and anyone else who wants media attention knowing that the media with their cameras will be covering the ceremonies in full force.
+1000
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on July 16, 2016, 10:43:22
What France is doing in Africa has nothing much to do with keeping or making the peace or anything else except French perceptions of French interests. France does exactly what it wants, it asks no permission and it seeks no support ... it protects French interests as it and it alone perceives them.

Pretty much bang on, French military operations in the Sahel are as much about maintaining French control of their mineral interests as they are about "Terrorism".  French electricity is 90% Nuclear Power based, most of that Uranium comes from Mauritania, Mali and Niger.  It's imperative the governments of those countries remain friendly with Paris, it's an energy security issue.

Ditto French Operations in the CAR.  That particular operation was born out of a power play made by the BRICS countries, particularly South Africa with backing from China.  They made a move in to French turf, a coup was staged and in a familiar scene French Colonial Marines seized the airport to "Evacuate Foreign Nationals"  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on July 16, 2016, 10:49:14
Likely why no one else in NATO has rushed to deploy combat troops to help the French...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: dapaterson on July 16, 2016, 11:01:29
Quick troops to tasks: 1x Bn HQ +1x Rifle coy to Latvia. Balance of 450 commitment is engr,  sigs, int & CSS. Same Bn provides rifle company to Ukraine.  For an African mission, we have 8 more Bns to choose from.  Leaving 7 not deployed.  That suggests a 2 year cycle.
And we still have 3x Armd units to build standby high readiness groups.

Challenging, but doable.

EDIT: fix typo in # of Armd units (fat fingers on phone syndrome)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on July 16, 2016, 11:14:15
Likely why no one else in NATO has rushed to deploy combat troops to help the French...

The French don't need the help.  They've got enough forward deployed forces and pre-staged equipment to take on anyone in that region.  The help we provided in terms of airlift during SERVAL merely sped up the operation, the outcome would have remained the same.

France has an Airborne BG on 72 hrs NTM at all times.  A Reinforcing Bde is on 9 days NTM.  The 50 A400Ms the French Air Force has bought which are just starting to come online should reduce their need for strategic airlift.

The French even have some nice graphics illustrating the airlift capabilities of A400

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fwww.stratpost.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FA400PR-600-x-353.jpg&hash=ac4dca7e8881d21ddd20aa8bedf26938)

When the French did SERVAL they flew soldiers in to Ivory Coast and TChad where the equipment was already staged, additional equipment was brought in to Abidjan by Mistrals from Toulon.  Troops drove a couple of thousand Kim's to Mali from both locations, this is why the French love wheeled vehicles so much.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on July 16, 2016, 11:40:50
I honestly don't think PET Jr has learned much from his party predecessors from our experience in the 90's...the only way this is going to work is if the ROE are appropriate for the environment.  If they're anything like the thing I still have from Croatia that fan folds out to something that would have got me killed if I followed it to the T, we'll be burying a number of folks I'm afraid.  Many of you might remember those - "STOP.  STOP or I'll say STOP again.  If you don't STOP, I'll have to think about chambering a round after I've told you to STOP yet again...etc ad nauseum".

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on July 16, 2016, 14:09:52
The French don't need the help.  They've got enough forward deployed forces and pre-staged equipment to take on anyone in that region.  The help we provided in terms of airlift during SERVAL merely sped up the operation, the outcome would have remained the same.

France has an Airborne BG on 72 hrs NTM at all times.  A Reinforcing Bde is on 9 days NTM.  The 50 A400Ms the French Air Force has bought which are just starting to come online should reduce their need for strategic airlift.

The French even have some nice graphics illustrating the airlift capabilities of A400

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fwww.stratpost.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FA400PR-600-x-353.jpg&hash=ac4dca7e8881d21ddd20aa8bedf26938)

When the French did SERVAL they flew soldiers in to Ivory Coast and TChad where the equipment was already staged, additional equipment was brought in to Abidjan by Mistrals from Toulon.  Troops drove a couple of thousand Kim's to Mali from both locations, this is why the French love wheeled vehicles so much.

Excellent - The French can reinforce St-Pierre and Miquelon with an Airborne Battle Group in 72 hours and a Brigade Group (with 30 tonne vehicles) in 9 days.  At which point the Mistrales can start showing up with the rest of the Division...... Not that they ever would mind you.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 16, 2016, 17:27:29
Therefore Mali?  French ending non-US mission in CAR, have very few personnel with UN’s MINUSCA–so shouldn’t need Canadian Forces help there:

“France to end military operations in CAR in October”
http://www.france24.com/en/20160714-france-military-operation-car-central-african-republic-sangaris-end/

MINUSCA:
http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missions/minusca/facts.shtml

French contribution (scroll down):
http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/contributors/2016/apr16_3.pdf

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on July 16, 2016, 18:10:43
Excellent - The French can reinforce St-Pierre and Miquelon with an Airborne Battle Group in 72 hours and a Brigade Group (with 30 tonne vehicles) in 9 days.  At which point the Mistrales can start showing up with the rest of the Division...... Not that they ever would mind you.

There isn't enough land in St-Pierre and Miquelon to park a Bde Gp of 30 tonne vehicles.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on July 16, 2016, 18:27:00
I guess they would just have to find some additional parking in the area.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: GAP on July 16, 2016, 18:33:47
I guess they would just have to find some additional parking in the area.

Quebec?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ballz on July 16, 2016, 19:55:11
12 UN peacekeepers killed in the first 5.5 months of 2016 in Mali. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=53977

And I would bet my last dollar, Mali is where we are going.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on July 16, 2016, 20:04:08
12 UN peacekeepers killed in the first 5.5 months of 2016 in Mali. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=53977

And I would bet my last dollar, Mali is where we are going.
Especially with the"fight terrorism" rhetoric coming out of the government now. The same government who pulled the CF-18s from fighting terrorism.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: rmc_wannabe on July 16, 2016, 20:10:18
Especially with the"fight terrorism" rhetoric coming out of the government now. The same government who pulled the CF-18s from fighting terrorism.

Ah, but fighting THAT terrorism isn't under a UN flag and thus wont get a seat at the UNSC. Or so I'm told... ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on July 16, 2016, 20:21:14
Back to the Africa mission I'm not sure where the government thinks we're getting all these soldiers but I'm glad to read this story. I've never been on a UN mission and much respect to everyone who has (understanding how shitty and painful they were) but this feels meaningful to me. 

Not knowing a deployment date means plenty of time to cry about black boots and green tacvests  ;D

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the fact of the matter is EVERY UN mission has been a waste of time at best and a failure at worst, and this fact needs to be repeated and broadcast at every opportunity. UN peacekeepers in the Sinai desert? Kicked out by Nasser so he could prosecute a war against Israel. UN in Cyprus? Political stasis since 1974, if not since 1963 when we first arrived. Golan Heights? Target practice for various groups. Israel routinely flys over the Heights to bomb Hezbollah in Syria and Lebanon when advanced weapons shipments are detected. UNPOFOR? The is a reason it switched to IFOR. Rwanda? Didn't even slow down the Genocide. And that is a top of the head list of missions that Canada was involved in. the record of other UN missions we didn't take part in is even worse.

What the missions did accomplish wasn't what the UN professed them to be about, but in the case of Cyprusand the other ME missions, they acted as an Economy of Force mission so that Canada's other thousands of deployed troops, airmen and sailors could focus on the USSR and keeping the Cold War from going Hot.

Sadly, the media has no knowledge or understanding of this, and I doubt that Gerald Butts has any interest in this either. Kissing up to third world dictators in the UN seems to have irresistible appeal for Butts and his ilk, especially as they can sell this as showing Canadian
"influence" in the world. The lack of any tangible results isn't going to get in the way of pushing for more UN "Peacekeeping missions", so all *we* can hope for is that our own military leadership will insist on a tangible mission parameter (including measurable outcomes), an exit strategy and robust ROE's (essentially IFOR rather than UNPOFOR).
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Tow Tripod on July 17, 2016, 08:55:26
Wouldn't it be a reasonable demand of the Canadian people to ask why the Government of Canada are sending Canadian Soldiers with Blue Helmets to Africa?
Where is the Peace to keep?
I don't get this....
Will this be another Stop or I will tell you to stop again mission....?
I don't know but I sure would like much more info...
Out...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on July 17, 2016, 08:59:28
That's for the opposition to demand explanation, and for the media to throw softball questions at Trudeau to get no real answer. The actual answer is trying to score political points for reelection/UNSC seat election. The CAF again becomes a political prop for the Liberals.

Can't wait to see the LSVWs on the side of the road in Africa broke down, in their shiny white paint. Capability gap? Nah, that's just a buzzword for fulfilling political promises.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on July 18, 2016, 11:40:33
Remind me again which of the African missions is a pure peacekeeping between two States? Ethiopia and Eritrea is the only one I can think of.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on July 18, 2016, 12:53:50
Wouldn't it be a reasonable demand of the Canadian people to ask why the Government of Canada are sending Canadian Soldiers with Blue Helmets to Africa?
Where is the Peace to keep?
I don't get this....
Will this be another Stop or I will tell you to stop again mission....?
I don't know but I sure would like much more info...
Out...

Quite a few political props will have to die before Canadians will think of UN peacekeeping for what it truly is.  Yugo should have buried the peacekeeping myth for good but the then current government, later opposition and Canadian media could not let go, as specially since it became a conservative beating stick. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on July 18, 2016, 13:02:09
Quite a few political props will have to die before Canadians will think of UN peacekeeping for what it truly is.  Yugo should have buried the peacekeeping myth for good but the then current government, later opposition and Canadian media could not let go, as specially since it became a conservative beating stick.
Made possible in part by governments underplaying deaths & strife in Yugo while it was going on - methinks any deaths on any mission in Africa now will be next-to-impossible to keep under the radar in the same way.

Remind me again which of the African missions is a pure peacekeeping between two States? Ethiopia and Eritrea is the only one I can think of.
No more U.N. mission there as of July 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Mission_in_Ethiopia_and_Eritrea) -- and even there, there's not a ton of peace being kept (http://www.voanews.com/content/ethiopia-eritrea-border-tensions/3373659.html).  Re:  country vs. country missions in Africa, not many (maybe UNAMID if you stretch it) according to the U.N.'s list (http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/operations/current.shtml):
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: FSTO on July 18, 2016, 13:07:28
The group above don't seem to be in the realm of classic blue helmet peacekeeping.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on July 18, 2016, 13:12:07
The group above don't seem to be in the realm of classic blue helmet peacekeeping.

Is there any example of 'classic' peacekeeping?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on July 18, 2016, 13:16:29
Is there any example of 'classic' peacekeeping?

Cyprus, 1975 to 1993 for Canada, holiday in the Med with one full mag stored in your pocket and trading peanut butter for stuff with the Turks.  And the beaches and European women on the beaches........  Nobody dies but lots of hangovers make you feel like dying.  That kind of classic peace keeping.  And smuggling all the cheap impure gold. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: recceguy on July 18, 2016, 13:24:01
Quote
MINUSMA United Nations Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in Mali -- "support political processes in that country and carry out a number of security-related tasks.  The Mission was asked to support the transitional authorities of Mali in the stabilization of the country and implementation of the transitional roadmap."

Mail sounds like Afghanistan. If the PM sends us there, we'll be mired in another insurgent war for years. Nothing blue beret about this one and no peace to keep or make.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on July 18, 2016, 13:31:47
Cyprus, 1975 to 1993 for Canada, holiday in the Med with one full mag stored in your pocket and trading peanut butter for stuff with the Turks.  And the beaches and European women on the beaches........  Nobody dies but lots of hangovers make you feel like dying.  That kind of classic peace keeping.  And smuggling all the cheap impure gold.

And Cyprus 1974?  What are your fine words on that event? 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on July 18, 2016, 13:39:16
My fine words would be; how can two NATO countries go to war with one another through two other NATO countries there to keep them from war and everyone be caught be surprised?  But that's off topic. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on July 18, 2016, 13:51:08
My fine words would be; how can two NATO countries go to war with one another through two other NATO countries there to keep them from war and everyone be caught be surprised?  But that's off topic.

It originally was an internal Cypriot matter, but then . . . Try getting ahold of this, which was written by the COS UNFICYP.

Henn, Brigadier Francis. A Business of Some Heat: The United Nations Force in Cyprus Before & During the 1974 Turkish Invasion, (Barnsley, 2004)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: FSTO on July 18, 2016, 14:00:38
Is there any example of 'classic' peacekeeping?

How about we ask the current PM what classic peacekeeping looks like. I would be interested what Gerald Butts has to say.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on July 18, 2016, 14:09:48
It originally was an internal Cypriot matter, but then . . . Try getting ahold of this, which was written by the COS UNFICYP.

Henn, Brigadier Francis. A Business of Some Heat: The United Nations Force in Cyprus Before & During the 1974 Turkish Invasion, (Barnsley, 2004)

ebook, for those with a large enough screen.

https://books.google.com.cy/books/about/A_Business_of_Some_Heat.html?id=waZtAAAAMAAJ
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 18, 2016, 14:17:28
"Classic peacekeeping" holds a different mental image for the average Canadian, who knows a few things about the Canadian military such as (1) our Air Force is centered around the Snowbirds (2) most people who join the army are really joining our peacekeeping forces.   ;D

When the Liberals and average Canadian think of peacekeeping, they think of images like this:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthechronicleherald.ca%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Fch_article_main_image%2Farticles%2FB97507299Z.120151002161639000GLRB4LJH.11.jpg&hash=56e2dc502637e786334ce0fa7426ff3b)

The don't even like this one very much;  why is that Peacekeeper carrying a weapon!!!    :panic:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ceasefire.ca%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F10%2Fpeacekeeping.jpg&hash=cec10667eaf8156628ffab824f95d015)

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on July 18, 2016, 14:25:46
"Classic peacekeeping" holds a different mental image for the average Canadian, who knows a few things about the Canadian military such as (1) our Air Force is centered around the Snowbirds (2) most people who join the army are really joining our peacekeeping forces.   ;D

You forgot (3) We have a Navy ?? ?? ??     [:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on July 18, 2016, 14:28:30
Mail sounds like Afghanistan. If the PM sends us there, we'll be mired in another insurgent war for years. Nothing blue beret about this one and no peace to keep or make.
With the French troops already doing their thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barkhane) (sans blue berets) only able to help U.N. folks "if requested by the Sec-Gen" (http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missions/minusma/background.shtml) ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 18, 2016, 14:43:50
You forgot (3) We have a Navy ?? ?? ??     [:D

I didn't, but I was giving examples of the average citizen.  I'm not sure they know about our Navy.  "Why do we need one of those?"   8)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on July 20, 2016, 12:13:44
Why the distaste from everyone for this potential operation?

If we go in to Mali, I'd expect a fairly robust ROE.  It's also a good opportunity to stick it to some Islamists. 

Better yet, it helps the Army keep the blade sharp.  If you didn't sign up for a little adventure with the potential for misadventure, what did you sign up for?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on July 20, 2016, 12:18:54
I think the issue would be the "peacekeeping" label and government support, when we all know it's another COIN mission like Afghanistan, without tanks, artillery, robust engineer support, aviation, etc...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on July 20, 2016, 12:22:22
Cyprus, 1975 to 1993 for Canada, holiday in the Med with one full mag stored in your pocket and trading peanut butter for stuff with the Turks.  And the beaches and European women on the beaches........  Nobody dies but lots of hangovers make you feel like dying.  That kind of classic peace keeping.  And smuggling all the cheap impure gold.

Just to reiterate: http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,123590.msg1445284.html#msg1445284

And the distaste for the proposed mission in Africa stems from it being sold for something that it clearly isn't (peacekeeping), the loss of focus against real threats (ISIS, Russia, the potential for armed conflict in the South China Sea) and the fear that in order to make the propaganda point that it is peacekeeping, our forces will be held to a "peacekeeping ROE" and equipped for that mission and not for the very real contingencies of combat against insurgent forces.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ModlrMike on July 20, 2016, 12:27:46
Yes, selling the mission as something it is not is misleading the public in the worst way. It's using the military as a cheap political exercise.

This article from the BBC  (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36838896)gives me a great deal of concern. In addition, I have no faith that a "robust" ROE will be part of the plan.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on July 20, 2016, 12:46:24
I think the issue would be the "peacekeeping" label and government support, when we all know it's another COIN mission like Afghanistan, without tanks, artillery, robust engineer support, aviation, etc...

Who cares what they label it.  If calling it "peacekeeping" keeps us in the game and off the bench, so be it.

We've got seasoned military leadership at the very top who I trust will provide the government with sound advice.

We don't pick our missions, they get picked for us.  We've also got a military perfectly suited for this sort of operation. 

I don't agree with the narrative that the government has taken their eye off ISIS. We've got a substantial SOTF and Intelligence apparatus helping combat that fight but the cancer is already there and being dealt with by other players.  A mission in the Sahel serves the purpose of preventing the cancer from spreading.  The last thing we need is another Afghanistan with AQIM given free reign over a plot of land.

I'm all for a little brushfire war if it keeps the rats off balance and contained to the MENA.  AQIM or ISIS, what's the difference?  Same shat, different pile. 

We also don't need Tanks for this theatre, far too burdensome logistically and ill suited for the Northern portions of the country where the fighting is.  An all wheels Infantry Battlegroup with dedicated Tactical Aviation is what's required.  Primary method of insertion is tan cadillacs.  The return of TOW couldn't have come at a better time either.  A very good weapon to blow rats out of little caves in the moonscape.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Teager on July 20, 2016, 17:06:13
Yes, selling the mission as something it is not is misleading the public in the worst way. It's using the military as a cheap political exercise.

This article from the BBC  (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36838896)gives me a great deal of concern. In addition, I have no faith that a "robust" ROE will be part of the plan.

This article gives a better overview of how bad it is. Although a bit older. It's pretty much Afghanistan by the sounds of it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-34812600
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on July 20, 2016, 17:37:44
This article gives a better overview of how bad it is. Although a bit older. It's pretty much Afghanistan by the sounds of it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-34812600
Good. Let's go try to make it better. You know, like doing our jobs.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 20, 2016, 17:41:11
Read up some on the past history of the UN;  ridiculous ROEs, TO & E restrictions, red tape between field commanders and the UN HQ desk commandos.  People who've been around for a while have little trust in the "UN Peacekeeping" stuff for a reason.  Find a few folks who were in Rwanda or UNPROFOR as examples, and talk to them for an hour.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: recceguy on July 20, 2016, 18:07:32
It's not the mission, as others have said. It's the way our present government is trying to sell this as peacekeeping. Canadians think, pressed combat, spiffy blue berets, blue ascots and white UN marked vehicles. They carry rifles for the dogs. Canadians are the great UN negotiators that'll have the French and ISIS living hand in hand after six months. That's what Canadians think when the government says peacekeeping. Canadians are stupid and will have a very rude awakening when things go south. It's all Trudeau kumbaya crap and soldiers are, probably, going to die to satisfy his ego and arrogance. Anyone with a schmick of real world smarts knows that playing that kind of bait and switch with Canadians, typically, does not end well. However, the PM has never operated in the real world, so how would he know anyway.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on July 20, 2016, 18:12:39
Read up some on the past history of the UN;  ridiculous ROEs, TO & E restrictions, red tape between field commanders and the UN HQ desk commandos.  People who've been around for a while have little trust in the "UN Peacekeeping" stuff for a reason.  Find a few folks who were in Rwanda or UNPROFOR as examples, and talk to them for an hour.
I've read shake hands with the devil. Good enough for you?

UN peacekeeping > sweeping tents and counting inventory in a stores room at the slowest possible pace.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 20, 2016, 18:18:34
I agree with recceguy.  The notion of us peacekeeping is a bullshit trick sold to the public to reinforce the old media driving "peacekeepers not soldiers"  crap.

Personally I don't care what they call it,  I'm glad we're getting in the fight. Among other things a mission like this will help retention.  I know of at least four soldiers who put VRs on hold because they want to deploy. 

But just to add,  deploying as peacekeepers will most likely result in stupid roe's and get Canadians killed.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on July 20, 2016, 18:19:10
A line from John Milton - oft quoted in barracks.

"They also serve who only stand and wait."

- On His Blindness (http://www.sonnets.org/milton.htm)

When the alternatives are considered, waiting may not be such a bad option.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on July 20, 2016, 18:29:53
Read up some on the past history of the UN;  ridiculous ROEs, TO & E restrictions, red tape between field commanders and the UN HQ desk commandos.  People who've been around for a while have little trust in the "UN Peacekeeping" stuff for a reason.  Find a few folks who were in Rwanda or UNPROFOR as examples, and talk to them for an hour.



EITS,

I believe the big problem we face as Canadians is that we tend to view everything through our own lense of Western cultural and political baggage. 

I'm including Canadian military members in this as well.  We are all political pawns, everything we do is a political calculation.  This is Clausewitz 101.

I believe every operation we are currently involved in is a worthwhile one and in our government's broader national interests.   Keeping AQIM out of Southern Mali is a worthwhile mission and one of a number of operations in a larger campaign combating islamic extremism.  It's a worthwhile cause.

It's not the mission, as others have said. It's the way our present government is trying to sell this as peacekeeping. Canadians think, pressed combat, spiffy blue berets, blue ascots and white UN marked vehicles. They carry rifles for the dogs. Canadians are the great UN negotiators that'll have the French and ISIS living hand in hand after six months. That's what Canadians think when the government says peacekeeping. Canadians are stupid and will have a very rude awakening when things go south. It's all Trudeau kumbaya crap and soldiers are, probably, going to die to satisfy his ego and arrogance. Anyone with a schmick of real world smarts knows that playing that kind of bait and switch with Canadians, typically, does not end well. However, the PM has never operated in the real world, so how would he know anyway.

Lets not pretend the previous government was any better, at least we don't have a bunch of control freaks running the zoo anymore.  I blame the present fighter jet/shipbuilding fiasco on the Conservatives.  They had 10 years in government to pull the trigger and couldn't do it.  The Harper government should have prescribed themselves some little blue pills, might have helped the decision making cycle.

As far as National Defence is concerned, the Liberals aren't as gun shy to make the hard decisions.  Whether we agree with them or not.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on July 20, 2016, 18:32:47
A line from John Milton - oft quoted in barracks.

"They also serve who only stand and wait."

- On His Blindness (http://www.sonnets.org/milton.htm)

When the alternatives are considered, waiting may not be such a bad option.
They will cease to serve those who only stand and wait.

Quote from Altair.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 20, 2016, 18:34:41
EITS,

I believe the big problem we face as Canadians is that we tend to view everything through our own lense of Western cultural and political baggage. 

I'm including Canadian military members in this as well.  We are all political pawns, everything we do is a political calculation.  This is Clausewitz 101.

I believe every operation we are currently involved in is a worthwhile one and in our government's broader national interests.   Keeping AQIM out of Southern Mali is a worthwhile mission and one of a number of operations in a larger campaign combating islamic extremism.  It's a worthwhile cause.

My concern is with things like ROE and 'what kit can we bring'...time will tell...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on July 20, 2016, 18:45:15
My concern is with things like ROE and 'what kit can we bring'...time will tell...

I agree that we should be concerned with this but I've got faith in the CoC.  The present CDS was seasoned in the Balkans and Afghanistan.  He is acutely aware of the dangers the troops will face.  This isn't 1992, it's 2016 and we've got combat seasoned Officers and Senior NCOs leading the military now and I trust them to set us up for success. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ModlrMike on July 20, 2016, 18:54:06
I agree that we should be concerned with this but I've got faith in the CoC.  The present CDS was seasoned in the Balkans and Afghanistan.  He is acutely aware of the dangers the troops will face.  This isn't 1992, it's 2016 and we've got combat seasoned Officers and Senior NCOs leading the military now and I trust them to set us up for success.

To be clear, it's not the military I don't trust.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on July 20, 2016, 19:20:36
It's not the mission, as others have said. It's the way our present government is trying to sell this as peacekeeping. Canadians think, pressed combat, spiffy blue berets, blue ascots and white UN marked vehicles. They carry rifles for the dogs. Canadians are the great UN negotiators that'll have the French and ISIS living hand in hand after six months. That's what Canadians think when the government says peacekeeping. Canadians are stupid and will have a very rude awakening when things go south. It's all Trudeau kumbaya crap and soldiers are, probably, going to die to satisfy his ego and arrogance. Anyone with a schmick of real world smarts knows that playing that kind of bait and switch with Canadians, typically, does not end well. However, the PM has never operated in the real world, so how would he know anyway.

You forgot to add "for the troops", after "does not end well."
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on July 20, 2016, 20:36:40
I've read shake hands with the devil. Good enough for you?

No.

Try listening to the opinions of people like me who have been there/done that. We have reasons to be concerned about Gerald Butts' plans for us.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: recceguy on July 20, 2016, 21:27:10
No.

Try listening to the opinions of people like me who have been there/done that. We have reasons to be concerned about Gerald Butts' plans for us.

This.   :goodpost:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on July 20, 2016, 23:29:04
So, now that the TOW missile has been reintroduced....we wouldn't happen to have some air defense systems laying around that we declared surplus, would we?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Castus on July 20, 2016, 23:41:08
So, now that the TOW missile has been reintroduced....we wouldn't happen to have some air defense systems laying around that we declared surplus, would we?

Wouldn't that be a sweet notion? Then we only need to grab a regiment's worth of SPGs, acquire more tanks and beef up our logistical capabilities. Easy peasy.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on July 20, 2016, 23:44:53
So, now that the TOW missile has been reintroduced....we wouldn't happen to have some air defense systems laying around that we declared surplus, would we?

Only if the government finds a magical capability gap.

Oh wait.... they only use that term for political goals, not actual capability gaps.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on July 21, 2016, 00:09:27
Only if the government finds a magical capability gap.

Oh wait.... they only use that term for political goals, not actual capability gaps.
The politics thread desperately needs a return.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on July 21, 2016, 00:15:14
So, now that the TOW missile has been reintroduced....we wouldn't happen to have some air defense systems laying around that we declared surplus, would we?

No, but there are lots of perfectly good Avengers in the USA looking for a good home. Some of them may still have the Canadian insignia on them from the failed lease for Op PODIUM.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on July 21, 2016, 00:19:02
The politics thread desperately needs a return.

Some people couldn't be adults, so we lost it. Kinda like alcohol on ships.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on July 21, 2016, 00:43:31
I think that's the one area (air defense) that we're really lacking in.  Maybe people at DND will push hard enough.  One can only hope.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on July 21, 2016, 00:53:28
I think that's the one area (air defense) that we're really lacking in.  Maybe people at DND will push hard enough.  One can only hope.

"How could they possibly be Japanese planes?"

— Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, Dec 7th, 1941
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 09, 2016, 07:19:23
This (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/peacekeeping-africa-sajjan-1.3712202) from "multiple sources" via CBC.ca ...
Quote
One of the Trudeau government's contributions to peace and stability in Africa is expected to include a revamped training mission in Niger that has been — until now — the purview of Canada's highly secretive special forces, CBC News has learned.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan was slated to arrive in Africa on Tuesday on a fact-finding mission for future peacekeeping operations.

But his assessment comes as the Liberal government is also considering a separate request to turn a special forces capacity-building mission, known as Operation Naberius, into a regular army training mission for troops in the war-torn country, multiple sources tell CBC News.

The switch could happen as early as September, not long after Sajjan attends a major international UN peacekeeping conference in London.

In an interview, Sajjan confirmed the proposal is being being debated.

"We are looking at that mission," Sajjan told the CBC. "There has been a really great impact made. And before we make a decision on that mission and what needs to be done, if there are other resources we need to bring to the table; we need to do the full analysis."

The operation has flown almost entirely under the radar since it was instituted over three years ago by the former Conservative government, which at the time faced repeated calls from the international community to help beat back Islamic militants, who have taken over a large swath of territory in neighbouring Mali ...
A little something to orient yourself with:
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldatlas.com%2Fimg%2Fareamap%2Ff17363ae4aaac804847e71a2e9ce1430.gif&hash=db8e4844f4d7a3bd9453a2a38ce68cc1)
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldatlas.com%2Fimg%2Fareamap%2Fe45904545f8a90c6b3c900fb3cfa1da2.gif&hash=6c95967e6451501e6530295587e2515c)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: recceguy on August 09, 2016, 16:59:12
What am I missing here? The Trudeau government campaigned on getting back to peacekeeping, claiming we'd been to long out of the game. Now they're considering an ongoing mission, started by the CPC? Are they going to proclaim this a new mission because they change the colour of the hats?

I can see the CBC, the Red Star and the Mop & Pail now:

Justin Trudeau says, "CANADA IS BACK!" PM OK's dangerous mission in Niger.

After years of neglect and non participation in UN missions, the PM has said "The days of ignoring the genocide and terrorism in Africa are over. Canadian Peacekeepers will once again sally forth as Canada's Boy Scouts to ............................................. ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: whiskey601 on August 09, 2016, 17:54:27
What is Canada's strategic, security, or economic link to Niger? The ROE had better be "weapons free" and we had better bring lots of nasty weapons: http://heavy.com/news/2016/07/new-isis-islamic-state-daesh-amaq-news-pictures-videos-wilayat-west-africa-wilayat-gharb-afriqiya-boko-haram-bosso-army-camp-attack-full-uncensored-youtube-video/

ISIL runs across the borders into other countries after their raids, it is hard to see how a peacekeeping mission can deal with that.

How many people will want to vomit when Trudeau, Dion and Singh are on the tarmac in Trenton.





   
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 09, 2016, 21:27:46
ISIL runs across the borders into other countries after their raids, it is hard to see how a peacekeeping mission can deal with that.

In Vietnam, I believe we used defoliants, and special forces that did not - do you hear - did not enter Cambodia or Laos  ;D.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on August 09, 2016, 21:47:22
What is Canada's strategic, security, or economic link to Niger?   

according to our embassy:

- We trade to the whopping amount of $7.8 million dollars/year;
- Canada provided around $30 million in humanitarian aid in 14/15;
- Canada contributed $5.4 million to the world food programme and CARE Canada to provide humanitarian aid in the Diffa Region;
- Canada pledge $20 million in July 15 to stop child marriage;
- Canada maintains a counter terrorism mission in Niger and Canada-Algeria co-chair a working group on the Sahel. Niger is allowed to take part!
- Canada and Niger are both members of the UN and the francophonie

So, in sum, there is essentially no link between the two nations aside from the common French heritage/colonial association.

Strategically, our association is iffy... Canada may have some interests in Africa, and taking a role in peacekeeping (making?) there might be a means of employing soft power throughout the continent, like China. That said, I look forward to the government trying to explain our strategic imperative and will make further judgments when (or if) that occurs.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Brad Sallows on August 09, 2016, 21:59:38
The political decision-making process goes like this:
Q: What do we want to be seen doing?
A: Peacekeeping.
Q: Where do we want to be seen doing it?
A: Someplace unfortunate.  How about Africa?
Q: What do we want to do in Africa?  Do we have anything already in place to leverage?  Give me an estimate of the situation which finds that we should be doing peacekeeping in Africa.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 10, 2016, 00:40:23
Quote
One of the Trudeau government's contributions to peace and stability in Africa is expected to include a revamped training mission in Niger that has been — until now — the purview of Canada's highly secretive special forces, CBC News has learned.

It will be interesting to see if and how we spin a training mission to peace keeping.  I hope CANSOF would be kind enough to lend us some vehicles and boots. And maybe uniforms and chest rigs. Same team right :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on August 10, 2016, 00:49:17
Strategically, our association is iffy... Canada may have some interests in Africa, and taking a role in peacekeeping (making?) there might be a means of employing soft power throughout the continent, like China. That said, I look forward to the government trying to explain our strategic imperative and will make further judgments when (or if) that occurs.

"Because 2016".

The sole reason for any of this is to satisfy the vanity of Gerald Butts and the Liberal back room in having a Canadian seat on the UN security council. The fact that we would be spending blood and treasure for an essentially meaningless position, in a hopelessly corrupt and ineffectual organization is irrelevant to them (even if it is very relevant to *us*).

This exercise in virtue signalling is especially puzzling, why is is so important for Canada to be validated by a bunch of third world thugs and kleptocrats?

However, don't ever expect to receive a clear answer from the LPC at any level, nor for the Legacy media to ever actually ask the hard questions. Welcome to the new decade of darkness, troops.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 10, 2016, 01:32:37
So we talk about expanding a mission initiated by the last government to get a seat that they failed to an it's all about Gerald Butts.  Right.....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 10, 2016, 02:07:15
So we talk about expanding a mission initiated by the last government to get a seat that they failed to an it's all about Gerald Butts.  Right.....

(https://img.discogs.com/uiujSc2L1NF1CXcrYMAUsk8YAMc=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1514057-1324199276.jpeg.jpg)

 [:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 10, 2016, 02:14:44
This (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/peacekeeping-africa-sajjan-1.3712202) from "multiple sources" via CBC.ca ...A little something to orient yourself with:
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldatlas.com%2Fimg%2Fareamap%2Ff17363ae4aaac804847e71a2e9ce1430.gif&hash=db8e4844f4d7a3bd9453a2a38ce68cc1)
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldatlas.com%2Fimg%2Fareamap%2Fe45904545f8a90c6b3c900fb3cfa1da2.gif&hash=6c95967e6451501e6530295587e2515c)
weird. In the National post they are making it sound like the D.R.C is the likely choice.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 10, 2016, 06:56:13
weird. In the National post they are making it sound like the D.R.C is the likely choice.
I guess it all depends on which "multiple sources" they're talking to/hearing from, compared to the CBC.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 10, 2016, 08:24:16
weird. In the National post they are making it sound like the D.R.C is the likely choice.

It could always be two missions.  One training and one pseudo-peace keeping.,  that would be cool.     
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on August 10, 2016, 08:29:39
Reinforcing some element of stability in the region isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Niger also provides a 'relatively' secure 'launch pad' from which regional security support, be it formal UNMIwherever, or smaller multi-lateral support missions , can be conducted.

:2c:

G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on August 10, 2016, 10:07:32
"Because 2016".

The sole reason for any of this is to satisfy the vanity of Gerald Butts and the Liberal back room in having a Canadian seat on the UN security council. The fact that we would be spending blood and treasure for an essentially meaningless position, in a hopelessly corrupt and ineffectual organization is irrelevant to them (even if it is very relevant to *us*).

This exercise in virtue signalling is especially puzzling, why is is so important for Canada to be validated by a bunch of third world thugs and kleptocrats?

However, don't ever expect to receive a clear answer from the LPC at any level, nor for the Legacy media to ever actually ask the hard questions. Welcome to the new decade of darkness, troops.

Aside from your opinion and only thinly veiled hatred of anything Liberal is there any proof to back up this claim? Engagement in Africa isn't in an of itself a bad thing, especially considering we're already militarily engaged in Niger. The implementation of "soft power" as a means of gaining influence and possibly rights for Canadian firms to African resources isn't a bad thing.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on August 10, 2016, 11:07:26
Retired Major General Lew Mackenzie cautions against pursuing a temporary seat on the Security Council in this oped piece from the Globe and Mail reproduced under the Fair Dealngs provisions of the Copyright Act.

So, Canada is on the search for a low-cost, low-risk, high-profile United Nations “peacekeeping” mission to enhance its chances to win a coveted seat on the UN Security Council in 2021.

This misguided emphasis on peacekeeping, especially given the UN’s battered reputation in this area due to a series of self-acknowledged peacekeeping disasters in the 1990s, is ill-founded. Given the considerable expense for Canada in attempting to secure a temporary two-year seat and, if successful, then participating as a non-permanent member of the council, it is time to examine a few relevant facts.

Canada did not abandon peacekeeping; peacekeeping abandoned us. During the Cold War, peacekeeping missions, with one disastrous exception, dealt with conflicts between countries. The member states involved in the conflict had delegations at the UN headquarters who could be called upon to help resolve breaches of ceasefire agreements and protocols. Post-Cold War conflicts where the UN has dared to deploy so-called peacekeepers have involved warring belligerents within countries. Factions in Somalia, Rwanda, Bosnia and many places had no delegations at the UN; as a result, the world body had little influence as violence and killings continued.

As a result of those such disasters, countries that had provided the bulk of soldiers for peacekeeping missions during the Cold War – including Canada, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Yugoslavia, Poland, Fiji, France, Britain, Australia and New Zealand – dramatically reduced their participation. In their place, countries such as Ethiopia, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Rwanda among others stepped forward to fill the gap. I have commanded soldiers from some of those countries and many are just fine; however, they are grossly underpaid and the temptation to subsidize their income by participating in illegal activities such as human trafficking, prostitution and the black market is too high for some to resist. At the same time, their parent countries are paid more than $1,300 (U.S.) a month for every soldier assigned to the UN, and while on duty, the soldiers are fed and accommodated by the UN. For some countries, UN peacekeeping has become a profitable business.

The United Nations was created in 1945 to address the issue of international peace and security. But even as the Security Council still struggles with conflicts around the world, other UN organizations that developed later are much more successful in achieving their objectives. UNICEF, the World Health Organization, the UN refugee commission and at least a dozen other UN agencies are indispensable in helping to deal with the chaos resulting from conflict and natural disasters. While it is perhaps less glamorous, enhancing Canadian support to such organizations would be more beneficial to the world than expending significant investment to try to gain a seat at the Security Council.

Canada will be competing for a council seat with the other 27 members of the ill-titled Western European and Others Group. Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Israel are the four designated “Other” countries; the remaining 24 members are European countries. They, along with the other 165 members of the General Assembly, would have to be wined and dined and lobbied by Canada to obtain the two-thirds of votes necessary for selection.

Low-risk, low-profile modest participation in UN military operations will have little impact on Canada’s chance for gaining a seat in 2021. In the early 1990s, when Canada had more than 4,600 troops in Cambodia, Cyprus, Yugoslavia, Somalia and Rwanda, that level of participation was noticed. But these days, thanks to chronic budget shrinkage, Canada is not even capable of deploying half that number, and would be challenged to sustain a contingent one-quarter that size.

If we really want to help make the world a better place, Canada should forget the obsession about obtaining an expensive temporary seat on the Security Council, where it would have little influence and, dare I say, little prestige in the face of the five veto-holding permanent members. Instead, Canada should focus on increasing support to UN agencies that have been saving and improving lives around the world.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on August 10, 2016, 12:02:07
I know guys working in Libya who talk about Niger like it's the 'hell generator' for most of Africa and the Mediterranean.

Perfect....

"The country is rated by the UN as one of the world's least-developed nations and was recently named as the worst country to live in."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35842300
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 10, 2016, 12:07:37
I know guys working in Libya who talk about Niger like it's the 'hell generator' for most of Africa and the Mediterranean.

Perfect....

"The country is rated by the UN as one of the world's least-developed nations and was recently named as the worst country to live in."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35842300

So it is the African version of Kandahar, only larger, farther away from salt water and harder to support?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on August 10, 2016, 14:36:10
So it is the African version of Kandahar, only larger, farther away from salt water and harder to support?

And French...  :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 10, 2016, 14:44:28
And French...  :)
Vandoos - UP!  >:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 10, 2016, 18:20:34
Prof. Roland Paris, recent PM Trudeau adviser in PMO,
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/top-trudeau-foreign-policy-advisor-roland-paris-heading-back-to-university-of-ottawa

responds to Lew Mackenzie:

Quote
Canada and Peacekeeping: Two Misconceptions|

We do not yet know where, when and how Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will deliver on his commitment to increase Canada's involvement in UN peace operations. As columnists and commentators begin to discuss these questions, however, two misconceptions are worth correcting.

The first is that the Trudeau government is exploring new peacekeeping opportunities in order to win a Security Council seat. Former general Lew MacKenzie made this assertion in today's Globe and Mail.

Of course, any contribution to the UN could potentially strengthen Canada's bid for a seat. However, the Prime Minister's commitment to reengage in UN operations seems to reflect his conviction that these operations play an important role in containing violence and promoting peace, and that Canada could make a useful contribution. (The Liberal election platform did not even mention running for a Security Council seat. Nor did the ministerial mandate letters. They did, however, clearly set out the peacekeeping commitment.)

The second misconception is that increasing Canada's contribution to peacekeeping necessarily involves sending a large contingent of Canadian troops into a UN mission. The UN would probably welcome any contributions from Canada, but the UN has long asked countries such as Canada to provide more specialized capabilities or "enablers" that are often missing in peacekeeping missions, in part because the developing countries that supply most of the troops for these missions tend to lack these capabilities.

Examples of such enablers include: special operations forces, transport planes and helicopters, engineering companies, field hospitals, signals companies, intelligence experts and capabilities, and police units. The UN also needs more and better training for the peacekeeping troops deployed by other countries (including training on proper treatment of civilians) as well as specialized units that can deploy quickly to help new missions get established, such as temporary headquarters teams.

In short, while the government may ultimately choose to deploy regular ground forces on a UN mission, renewing Canada's involvement in peacekeeping does not necessarily translate into large numbers of Canadian boots on the ground.
http://www.rolandparis.com/#!Canada-and-Peacekeeping-Two-Misconceptions/c21kp/57ab623a0cf273602883fcbb

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Kat Stevens on August 10, 2016, 18:36:24
I went through some old stuff and found my OP HARMONY Roto 0 RoE card (that we got two months after arrival).  Fun read, good times.  Anyone want to borrow it?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on August 10, 2016, 18:45:34
I went through some old stuff and found my OP HARMONY Roto 0 RoE card (that we got two months after arrival).  Fun read, good times.  Anyone want to borrow it?

Still have mine from '94...still shaking my head to this day.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on August 11, 2016, 00:12:46
Aside from your opinion and only thinly veiled hatred of anything Liberal is there any proof to back up this claim? Engagement in Africa isn't in an of itself a bad thing, especially considering we're already militarily engaged in Niger. The implementation of "soft power" as a means of gaining influence and possibly rights for Canadian firms to African resources isn't a bad thing.

Just me and Gen Mackenzie apparently.

Is engagement in Africa really part of out National Interest? Is it serving as an economy of force mission for our forces deployed elsewhere (like Cyprus)? Do we actually have the resources to engage in the Baltic Republics, Ukraine, Iraq and in an undefined mission in Africa (indeed do we have the resources needed for the current set of missions already underway?) Are there perhaps other areas in the world like the South China Sea where our intervention might have greater impact? Outside of aiming for a Security council seat, what sort of geopolitical end state will the mission on Africa accomplish? Are we willing to commit decades of time and resources to actually build and nurture effective social, political and economic infrastructure and institutions to ensure that the aims are achieved and the situation is stabilized in the long term? Are we willing to commit enough resources and demand the ROE for a robust military engagement to degrade and destroy radicals in place if we are not going to commit for nation building?

I know there are journalists who read Army.ca, so here is a list of questions you might start asking, rather than focusing on who is wearing a shirt today...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on August 11, 2016, 00:48:14
Just me and Gen Mackenzie apparently.

Is engagement in Africa really part of out National Interest? Is it serving as an economy of force mission for our forces deployed elsewhere (like Cyprus)? Do we actually have the resources to engage in the Baltic Republics, Ukraine, Iraq and in an undefined mission in Africa (indeed do we have the resources needed for the current set of missions already underway?) Are there perhaps other areas in the world like the South China Sea where our intervention might have greater impact? Outside of aiming for a Security council seat, what sort of geopolitical end state will the mission on Africa accomplish? Are we willing to commit decades of time and resources to actually build and nurture effective social, political and economic infrastructure and institutions to ensure that the aims are achieved and the situation is stabilized in the long term? Are we willing to commit enough resources and demand the ROE for a robust military engagement to degrade and destroy radicals in place if we are not going to commit for nation building?

I know there are journalists who read Army.ca, so here is a list of questions you might start asking, rather than focusing on who is wearing a shirt today...

Our Army etc does what the politicians tell us to do which, in turn, is largely driven by what it will take to make the Perfumed Princes look good.

So, no difference from the past couple of hundred years then.

Viz:


The Widow at Windsor

'Ave you 'eard o' the Widow at Windsor
 With a hairy gold crown on 'er 'ead?
She 'as ships on the foam -- she 'as millions at 'ome,
 An' she pays us poor beggars in red.
    (Ow, poor beggars in red!)
There's 'er nick on the cavalry 'orses,
 There's 'er mark on the medical stores --
An' 'er troopers you'll find with a fair wind be'ind
 That takes us to various wars.
    (Poor beggars! -- barbarious wars!)
       Then 'ere's to the Widow at Windsor,
        An' 'ere's to the stores an' the guns,
       The men an' the 'orses what makes up the forces
        O' Missis Victorier's sons.
       (Poor beggars! Victorier's sons!)

http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/widow_at_windsor.html
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 11, 2016, 00:58:34
Prof. Roland Paris, recent PM Trudeau adviser in PMO,
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/top-trudeau-foreign-policy-advisor-roland-paris-heading-back-to-university-of-ottawa

responds to Lew Mackenzie:

Mark
Ottawa

To this civilian it sounds like the Professor wants a Brigade Group to deploy without the combat arms elements.  UN to provide Force Protection as well as protecting the locals?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on August 11, 2016, 01:21:41
To this civilian it sounds like the Professor wants a Brigade Group to deploy without the combat arms elements.  UN to provide Force Protection as well as protecting the locals?
I suspect there would be Canadian infantry for force protection and maybe as an OMLT to a less developed nation's blue beret battalions, but otherwise it is the other parts of the brigade that are harder to source when poorer nations provide the bulk of the manpower.  Just as we have leaned on US capabilities to enable us in Afgahnistan, the UN wants a developed nation to be big brother in its blue beret theaters.

We have already committed to a field hospital for Op IMPACT, so maybe we send an engineer regiment to Africa?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 11, 2016, 01:32:49
To this civilian it sounds like the Professor wants a Brigade Group to deploy without the combat arms elements.  UN to provide Force Protection as well as protecting the locals?
Fitting. 

Roland Paris' major publication, At War's End: Building Peace After Civil Conflict,  is all about wonderful ideas, which don't have a chance of working if implemented in the real world.  He has repeatedly stated we need "better planned" interventions..... without a lot of detail on 'better.'

Maybe even he has realized he's better off being back at Ottawa U than being known as this PM's "foreign policy advisor." 
 

Of course, none of this has anything  to do with the PM wanting a UNSC seat.....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 11, 2016, 02:40:14
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/sec.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/nature-of-peacekeeping-no-longer-fits-demands-of-conflict-zones-sajjan/article31364202/%3fservice=amp?client=ms-android-rogers-ca

Quote
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan says what Canada will ask its soldiers to do in Africa can no longer be called peacekeeping because the term doesn’t reflect modern demands of stabilizing a conflict zone – something experts say could run the gamut from training other countries’ troops to counterterrorism.

Mr. Sajjan spoke from Ethiopia, the first stop in an eight-day fact-finding mission to Africa, as Ottawa tries to narrow where to deploy soldiers in what it promises will be a return to a major peacekeeping role for Canada.

The Defence Minister acknowledges the job in conflict-ravaged countries is potentially more dangerous these days and said he prefers the phrase “peace support operations” to describe the task Canada is preparing to embrace in one or more places in Africa.

“I think we can definitely say what we used to have as peacekeeping, before, is no longer. We don’t have two parties that have agreed on peace and there’s a peacekeeping force in between,” he told The Globe and Mail in an interview.

“Even using the terminology of peacekeeping is not valid at this time,” he said. “Those peacekeeping days, those realities, do not exist now and we need to understand the reality of today.”

Mr. Sajjan has been directed by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to “renew Canada’s commitment to United Nations peace operations” – a campaign pledge made by the Liberals, who had accused the Harper government of turning its back on peacekeeping.

Canadian soldiers’ participation in peacekeeping has dwindled over time to about 100 today – a major drop when compared with 1993 when 3,300 were deployed in UN peacekeeping missions. Current deployments include about 30 in support of UN peacekeeping missions and 70 posted to a multinational peacekeeping operation in the Sinai Peninsula.

Peacekeeping expert Walter Dorn, with Canadian Forces College, said it’s his understanding that an official memo on the deployment went to cabinet in June, a document he expects would have come with recommendations.

Mr. Sajjan said he’s made no decisions yet. His options include, but are not limited to, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Mali and the Central African Republic – all countries with UN peacekeeping missions.

The remainder of his trip includes the DRC, Uganda, Tanzania and Kenya. The Defence Minister declined for security reasons to say if he was to visit Entebbe, Uganda, a major staging ground for logistics to UN missions in East and Central Africa, including the DRC.

Mr. Sajjan remained non-commital when asked to identify his priorities for a mission choice, saying he must gather more information first.

“Just because I am not going to a place doesn’t mean I am ruling it out. And just because I am going to a place doesn’t mean I’m putting resources there,” he said.

Prof. Dorn said if Mr. Sajjan were to visit Entebbe, rather than Kampala, while in Uganda, then he would take that as a stronger indication that Canada is seriously leaning toward a major commitment to the UN mission in the DRC.

He expects Ottawa will announce its new commitment in September, by the time the UN Leaders’ Summit on Peacekeeping takes place in London.

The DRC has been trying to recover from what has been called “Africa’s World War,” a massive conflict that at its peak involved nine countries and was formally ended in 2003 after a peace agreement. The UN mission has dealt with its aftermath and subsequent smaller conflicts.

“That is a tough conflict, partly because it’s multilayered, partly because of the size of the country,” said Jane Boulden, research chair in international relations and security studies at the Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston. “There is no easy transport across different zones in the country. It’s deeply corrupt.”

The former Harper government more than once turned down the command of the peacekeeping mission in the DRC. The last time, in 2008, Canada was still busy with a combat mission in Afghanistan but many in the military were wary, and for some, the prospect of leading a complex mission evoked memories of events in Rwanda, when Canadian general Roméo Dallaire was forced to watch spiralling mass killings under indecisive UN leadership.

Mr. Sajjan said Canada has a responsibility to do what it can to help African countries, plagued by high unemployment, to fight the forces of destabilization, including terrorist groups such as the Islamic State that are building alliances with regional militants such as Boko Haram and Al-Shabab.

He said military is not the only tool necessary for peace support operations, noting development assistance helps, too. “Far too often, we think we want to be able to send in a military resource because that is what we’ve done in the past.”

Accompanying the Defence Minister are Mr. Dallaire, now retired, and Louise Arbour, a former UN high commissioner for human rights who also sat on Canada’s Supreme Court.


Seems like the liberals are well aware of the realities on the ground and aren't going for some old school restrictive ROE blue helmet nonsense of days past.

Go figure.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: CCCB on August 11, 2016, 09:32:16
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/sec.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/nature-of-peacekeeping-no-longer-fits-demands-of-conflict-zones-sajjan/article31364202/%3fservice=amp?client=ms-android-rogers-ca

Seems like the liberals are well aware of the realities on the ground and aren't going for some old school restrictive ROE blue helmet nonsense of days past.

Go figure.

>Liberals seek robust new peacekeeping mission to mark "Canada's return".
>Liberals acknowledge this new mission is not peacekeeping.

Wew lad.  Our new political masters sure are funny.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on August 11, 2016, 11:09:56
I get the impression that our reality based defense Minister is attempting to square the circle with his "Idealist" colleagues in Cabinet. He is to loyal to say "your idea sucks" in public. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 11, 2016, 11:27:47
I get the impression that our reality based defense Minister is attempting to square the circle with his "Idealist" colleagues in Cabinet. He is to loyal to say "your idea sucks" in public.

People seem to get a lot of impressions without much evidence.

I get the impression that some use every situation as a chance for political spin and point scoring.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 11, 2016, 11:36:30
What disturbs me the most in that article, is that it sounds like it's up to the Minister of Defence to decide. The government almost feels akin to a kid throwing a tantrum: "I want a Peacekeeping operation, I want it Now NOW NOW!! Go get me one."

If Canada wants to "re-engage" with UN peacekeeping operations - which I agree we should not blindly accept without checking it out - should not the first step be to ask the UN where they think we could be useful to them and then - only then - check to see if it fits our capabilities and national will to see through? Not the other way around where we shop the missions and then just tell the UN "I want in on that one."
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 11, 2016, 11:42:18
I think I'd rather we decide than them.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 11, 2016, 11:43:50
What disturbs me the most in that article, is that it sounds like it's up to the Minister of Defence to decide. The government almost feels akin to a kid throwing a tantrum: "I want a Peacekeeping operation, I want it Now NOW NOW!! Go get me one."

If Canada wants to "re-engage" with UN peacekeeping operations - which I agree we should not blindly accept without checking it out - should not the first step be to ask the UN where they think we could be useful to them and then - only then - check to see if it fits our capabilities and national will to see through? Not the other way around where we shop the missions and then just tell the UN "I want in on that one."
Would you rather a bunch of politicians in Ottawa decide or a army vet in sajjan and a former peacekeeping commander who has seen things go sideways in dallaire make the decision ?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 11, 2016, 11:47:18
To this civilian it sounds like the Professor wants a Brigade Group to deploy without the combat arms elements.  UN to provide Force Protection as well as protecting the locals?

What would be the Command and Control issues with that sort of arrangement?   I am thinking of the implications on morale if you had well paid western soldiers staying in the rear supplying support while you had low paid third-world soldiers up front doing all the "interacting".  I can't imagine that the outcome would be good.  It seems to me that the risk of the mission generating bad press would be high with the supporting nation(s)'s reputation being dragged into the mud.

I am not saying that all third world troops aren't good troops.  I know that historically they have made as good soldiers as any - when well led.  And part of that leadership involves sharing their hardships.

It seems to me that, to demonstrate that leadership, the supporting nation is going to have to demonstrate a willingness to share sacrifice by taking up a front line role as well.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 11, 2016, 12:00:42
Quote
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan says what Canada will ask its soldiers to do in Africa can no longer be called peacekeeping because the term doesn’t reflect modern demands of stabilizing a conflict zone – something experts say could run the gamut from training other countries’ troops to counterterrorism.

Mr. Sajjan spoke from Ethiopia, the first stop in an eight-day fact-finding mission to Africa, as Ottawa tries to narrow where to deploy soldiers in what it promises will be a return to a major peacekeeping role for Canada.


Perhaps the latest from our MND is part of the greater plan.

1.  In the election, promise a return to peacekeeping after Afghanistan and Iraq.  War-mongering Harper! 

2.  Then, before deploying, send 'someone' into the area to assess.  Provide the assessment in a manner palatable to the public as to reasons why 'traditional peacekeeping missions actually no longer exist'   :o who knew!  :o.  Wow what a new piece of information that is!! 

3.  Get a feel for the public's reaction and go from there.  If people question your 'change', you simply point the finger and the previous government and say "we didn't know what was going on, we weren't in power for a decade.  Harper is bad remember?"

Regardless of motives, if this puts better ROE for our troops going  into harms way and less KIA/WIA, I'll take it (as a tax payers and serving member).
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on August 11, 2016, 12:03:02
In the seventies most of our participation in peacekeeping was with signals and combat service support organizations. The logic was that almost any country could provide infantry and light armour, but it took a sophisticated western nation to support them.

The medals on display on the CF Greens reflected this. Combat arms might have a Cyprus gong, with a few "new UNEF" ones, with the sigs and CSS would have three or four medals besides the inevitable CDs.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 11, 2016, 12:05:27
Perhaps the latest from our MND is part of the greater plan.

1.  In the election, promise a return to peacekeeping after Afghanistan and Iraq.  War-mongering Harper! 

2.  Then, before deploying, send 'someone' into the area to assess.  Provide the assessment in a manner palatable to the public as to reasons why 'traditional peacekeeping missions actually no longer exist'   :o who knew!  :o.  Wow what a new piece of information that is!! 

3.  Get a feel for the public's reaction and go from there.  If people question your 'change', you simply point the finger and the previous government and say "we didn't know what was going on, we weren't in power for a decade.  Harper is bad remember?"

Regardless of motives, if this puts better ROE for our troops going  into harms way and less KIA/WIA, I'll take it (as a tax payers and serving member).
Or pivot and take on a training mission as opposed to combat mission.

Don't see why they would do #3. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 11, 2016, 12:14:40
A current government blaming the previous one for something happening now?  You're right...never happened in the past and likely won't in the future.   :blotto:

You know I'm not a fan of the LPC, but I find this article/words from the MND hard to criticize.  If he went down and said "oh no, all is well, start issuing blue berets" people would be jumping up and down.  He isn't, he is stating things have changed from (what Canadians think of when they think of peacekeeping) and...people will still jump up and down.   :dunno:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 11, 2016, 12:20:28
A current government blaming the previous one for something happening now?  You're right...never happened in the past and likely won't in the future.   :blotto:

I don't see ignorance of reality to be something that you can easily blame on the previous government.  Even if they were ignorant of this (I doubt they were, given that the Liberals have more ex military members than any other party), they aren't going to say it.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 11, 2016, 12:21:44
I think I'd rather we decide than them.

Would you rather a bunch of politicians in Ottawa decide or a army vet in sajjan and a former peacekeeping commander who has seen things go sideways in dallaire make the decision ?

Neither.

What I want is a proper, professional, thought through process leading to a decision fully supported by the public.

In such process, you would start by engaging with the UN and ask them where they require assistance (ask for more than one, ask for their higher priorities). Then, you would obtain from the UN all of the information/intelligence the UN possesses on those conflicts.

Next, you would send a professional evaluation team to the various places to observe, review and evaluate. Note that I said professional - not the Minister of Defence, who should be in Ottawa with better things to do; nor an ex-UN "human rights" advocate or ex-justice, even if of the Supreme Court (basically a life long lawyer) who has never fought or learned to fight conflict in her whole life; and neither an long retired soldier (even with all the respect I have for general Dallaire) turned politician who has never fought in modern day counter-insurgency conflicts.

I would send senior military officers from the combat arms, together with senior people from the intel side, and senior Africa specialists from Foreign Affairs. They would then report to the political masters through their professional heads (DM for Foreign Affairs, Clerk of Privy Council for intel and the CDS and DM jointly for National Defence. I would hope that the Cabinet would hear the CDS on the military risks of each mission contemplated in the lead up to the decision.

Finally, I would hope that the government would then make its decision known to the public and clearly explain to the public both the why that mission was selected and what to honestly expect that we will accomplish and at what potential cost, so Canadians can get behind the mission.

Right now, with the Minister, Mr. Dallaire and Ms. Arbour, the whole show is completely and exclusively political, no matter how qualified on matters they used to be in past incarnations; and it is set so that the professional heads of the various department or of the military are in no position to advise properly.

That, in my mind, is not good news.
   
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 11, 2016, 12:23:34
I don't see ignorance of reality to be something that you can easily blame on the previous government.  Even if they were ignorant of this (I doubt they were, given that the Liberals have more ex military members than any other party), they aren't going to say it.
This.

Blaming a previous government for the fiscal situation inherited or problems in certain departments is par for the course.

Ignorance of what is happening on the ground in UN peacekeeping/peacemaking missions? That's a stretch.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 11, 2016, 12:25:12
I don't see ignorance of reality to be something that you can easily blame on the previous government.  Even if they were ignorant of this (I doubt they were, given that the Liberals have more ex military members than any other party), they aren't going to say it.

With the current 'voting population' and love for any and all things JMT?  Sure they could (IMO).

They could say it...he could strike a new yoga pose while photobombing a wedding or something...and who'd remember that thing that was said before the photobomb?   ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 11, 2016, 12:26:09
Neither.

What I want is a proper, professional, thought through process leading to a decision fully supported by the public.

In such process, you would start by engaging with the UN and ask them where they require assistance (ask for more than one, ask for their higher priorities). Then, you would obtain from the UN all of the information/intelligence the UN possesses on those conflicts.

Next, you would send a professional evaluation team to the various places to observe, review and evaluate. Note that I said professional - not the Minister of Defence, who should be in Ottawa with better things to do; nor an ex-UN "human rights" advocate or ex-justice, even if of the Supreme Court (basically a life long lawyer) who has never fought or learned to fight conflict in her whole life; and neither an long retired soldier (even with all the respect I have for general Dallaire) turned politician who has never fought in modern day counter-insurgency conflicts.

I would send senior military officers from the combat arms, together with senior people from the intel side, and senior Africa specialists from Foreign Affairs. They would then report to the political masters through their professional heads (DM for Foreign Affairs, Clerk of Privy Council for intel and the CDS and DM jointly for National Defence. I would hope that the Cabinet would hear the CDS on the military risks of each mission contemplated in the lead up to the decision.

Finally, I would hope that the government would then make its decision known to the public and clearly explain to the public both the why that mission was selected and what to honestly expect that we will accomplish and at what potential cost, so Canadians can get behind the mission.

Right now, with the Minister, Mr. Dallaire and Ms. Arbour, the whole show is completely and exclusively political, no matter how qualified on matters they used to be in past incarnations; and it is set so that the professional heads of the various department or of the military are in no position to advise properly.

That, in my mind, is not good news.
 
And then we wake up?

Seriously, when in the history of Canada as a nation has this ever happened?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 11, 2016, 12:27:53
With the current 'voting population' and love for any and all things JMT?  Sure they could (IMO).

I know a lot of people love me, but I don't think you meant me, so I'm going to assume you meant JPT.

Quote
They could say it...he could strike a new yoga pose while photobombing a wedding or something...and who'd remember that thing that was said before the photobomb?   ;D

I get that people of a certain political stripe don't understand his popularity, but it's not really about that.  Still, this isn't the place for me to go into an analysis of the reasons that people like him in a way that they haven't liked their head of government for a long time.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on August 11, 2016, 12:30:47
If Canada wants to "re-engage" with UN peacekeeping operations - which I agree we should not blindly accept without checking it out - should not the first step be to ask the UN where they think we could be useful to them and then - only then - check to see if it fits our capabilities and national will to see through? Not the other way around where we shop the missions and then just tell the UN "I want in on that one."
Why do you assume this exchange of information has not already happened?

Perhaps the latest from our MND is part of the greater plan.

...
Or maybe it is a sign that the government has had a better understanding of modern peace support operations than many here have given credit for.  Could the minister have taken an opportunity to educate the media on things he already knows, to change vernacular of the discussion as it is presented to the average Canadian and thereby bring public perceptions in line with reality?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on August 11, 2016, 12:43:19
If Global Affaires Minister Stephane Dion and his staff (which includes linkages with DND) had not already engaged the UN regarding its desired priorities for PK ops, I would be surprised (and disappointed).  Just because we haven't heard details about such discussions doesn't mean that they are not known. 

That a member of Privy Council is actually on the ground as part of the conduct of the recce is not necessarily a bad thing.  Ground truth, vice taking a report vetted through a number of bureaucrats and passed through the Clerk, isn't to say that the Executive (Privy Council) doesn't trust anyone.  Yes, there is a bit of showmanship going on here as well, no doubt, however, it is refreshing to see the MND make some rather frank (and true) statements about peace operations (ops with an intend to establish or build peace, particularly where little to non may exist), vice pre-judging every potential activity as a peacekeeping operation.  It would seem that Mr. Sajjan is beginning to find his pace in the Town.

:2c:

G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on August 11, 2016, 12:51:15
People seem to get a lot of impressions without much evidence.

I get the impression that some use every situation as a chance for political spin and point scoring.

I like Sanjin, but I think he has his work cut out for him to educate the rest of the Cabinet and yes I have decades of evidence from previous encounters with the Liberals and mindset.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 11, 2016, 13:05:29
I like Sanjin, but I think he has his work cut out for him to educate the rest of the Cabinet and yes I have decades of evidence from previous encounters with the Liberals and mindset.
That's like saying you have experience from Vietnam when talking about the Iraq war.

Cool, but not relevant to the current situation.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on August 11, 2016, 13:19:37
Or maybe it is a sign that the government has had a better understanding of modern peace support operations than many here have given credit for.  Could the minister have taken an opportunity to educate the media on things he already knows, to change vernacular of the discussion as it is presented to the average Canadian and thereby bring public perceptions in line with reality?

I think that this may be closer to the truth than most on this forum are willing to give credit for. We have to remember the LGen (Ret'd) Leslie, former Commander of the Army, is also in the Liberal caucus and is, no doubt, providing as much, if not more, insight into these matters than Minister Sajjan. While some may not like Leslie personally, he has more knowledge of Peace Support operations and modern military requirements than likely the entire Conservative government before this one.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: blackberet17 on August 11, 2016, 13:28:28
Time spent on recce is never time wasted.

I appreciate the MND taking the time to personally (when was the last time such a thing happened??) hear from the political and military minds during his fact-finding mission. I also appreciate Sen Dallaire there - someone who has had to deal with the UN, on a "peacekeeping" mission, in an African country. While it may have been more than twenty years since UNAMIR, it's still the most current experience available (aside from the CANSOFCOM pers in Niger, etc.).

On a side note, anyone visit the CANSOFCOM web page lately? Ironic how under the "Myths" tab for CSOR, there are...none.  :P
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 11, 2016, 13:30:42
Or maybe it is a sign that the government has had a better understanding of modern peace support operations than many here have given credit for.  Could the minister have taken an opportunity to educate the media on things he already knows, to change vernacular of the discussion as it is presented to the average Canadian and thereby bring public perceptions in line with reality?

Sure, but I'm still wary of this government.  Overall, the MND might have taken advantage of the opportunity but I still lean towards the earlier post I made;  promise a return to peacekeeping, then find a way to explain to the public who elected you why 'peacekeeping' no longer exists. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on August 11, 2016, 13:47:37
That's like saying you have experience from Vietnam when talking about the Iraq war.

Cool, but not relevant to the current situation.

This is the third government I have worked for, I am not seeing anything different than the previous Liberal one from the inside, other than Chreatian keeping his shirt on. The Liberal Party has not changed much, despite a few shining stars in Cabinet.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 11, 2016, 13:56:26
This is the third government I have worked for, I am not seeing anything different than the previous Liberal one from the inside, other than Chreatian keeping his shirt on. The Liberal Party has not changed much, despite a few shining stars in Cabinet.
While I would love to point out all of the difference between this liberal goverment and liberal governments past I think that would constitute a derail of this thread to a subject currently banned in this site.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 11, 2016, 15:33:08
I like Sanjin, but I think he has his work cut out for him to educate the rest of the Cabinet and yes I have decades of evidence from previous encounters with the Liberals and mindset.

And again, there are more Liberals that have military experience than people from any other party - I don't see the evidence.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 11, 2016, 15:35:45
The question is, IMO, is that experience falling on open, or closed, ears.   :2c:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 11, 2016, 15:36:29
The question is, IMO, is that experience falling on open, or closed, ears.   :2c:

And we don't know the answer to that - speculation seems valueless.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 11, 2016, 15:40:12
And the numbers of members of the house in any party with military backgrounds is a pittance when set against sitting houses of the past.  I think the last sitting PM with any military experience was Mike Pearson in the 60's and his experience was 40 years behind him then.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Kat Stevens on August 11, 2016, 15:41:01
And we don't know the answer to that - speculation seems valueless.

Motion carried!  Shut the thread down!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 11, 2016, 15:41:06
And we don't know the answer to that - speculation seems valueless.

Agreed on both aspects.   8)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on August 11, 2016, 15:42:05
And again, there are more Liberals that have military experience than people from any other party - I don't see the evidence.

 ???

There are, and have been, a fair number of former military Members of Parliament from Parties other than the Liberals.  I would not make any suggestions that the Liberals hold any higher form of legitimacy in stating that they have more former military members than others.   And as our elected representatives, does that even matter?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on August 11, 2016, 15:59:07
People seem to get a lot of impressions without much evidence.

I get the impression that some use every situation as a chance for political spin and point scoring.
You mean like everything between 2006 and Oct 2015?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on August 11, 2016, 16:13:35
And the numbers of members of the house in any party with military backgrounds is a pittance when set against sitting houses of the past.  I think the last sitting PM with any military experience was Mike Pearson in the 60's and his experience was 40 years behind him then.

Is LGen (Ret'd) good enough military experience? He commanded the army, so he probably has some concept of PSO, conventional, or asymmetric operations. Also, he was the COS for Sector south in Yugo and a DCO in Croatia and served in A-Stan....

In fact, he is likely a far better source of knowledge and is likely conducting a lot of the behind the scenes advising on these matters with the new government. Minister Sajjan's experience is good, but he wouldn't have been exposed to nearly as much on the strategic side of the military due to his tactical level position.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 11, 2016, 16:32:22
There are, and have been, a fair number of former military Members of Parliament from Parties other than the Liberals.

I don't know why people read things that aren't there.  Currently, there are more Liberals that have served.  That's the current reality that this government is working with.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Brad Sallows on August 11, 2016, 16:57:27
>And again, there are more Liberals that have military experience than people from any other party - I don't see the evidence.

Largely irrelevant.  We need to stop fetishizing prior military service as if it means every ex-member is broadly knowledgeable.  This is geopolitical turf.  The "military" is only a small piece.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on August 11, 2016, 17:17:01
>And again, there are more Liberals that have military experience than people from any other party - I don't see the evidence.

Largely irrelevant.  We need to stop fetishizing prior military service as if it means every ex-member is broadly knowledgeable.  This is geopolitical turf.  The "military" is only a small piece.

Once again, former Commander of the Canadian Army... I'd say pretty knowledgable
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 11, 2016, 17:20:23
I suggest, that we as Canadians, stick our heads above the parapet and take a look around.   The world is getting to be a very messy place and by this time next year is at risk of being a very different place.

One reason that PM May is holding off on Brexit, I believe, one reason among many, is to see the outcome of the US elections.  She has until the end of March 2017 to "unilaterally" withdraw from the EU by triggering Article 50.

The old sureties from WW2 are no longer as firm as they were and China, Russia and the US are once more playing on a more level playing field.  Unfortunately it is at a diminished level on which even more players can play  New alliances are likely to be necessary - and new obligations.  I believe it is one of those rare periods of history when the world will force itself on Canada.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 11, 2016, 17:58:11
Is LGen (Ret'd) good enough military experience? He commanded the army, so he probably has some concept of PSO, conventional, or asymmetric operations. Also, he was the COS for Sector south in Yugo and a DCO in Croatia and served in A-Stan....

In fact, he is likely a far better source of knowledge and is likely conducting a lot of the behind the scenes advising on these matters with the new government. Minister Sajjan's experience is good, but he wouldn't have been exposed to nearly as much on the strategic side of the military due to his tactical level position.

He's one man, amongst not too many men and women in the present HoC that have military experience in ratio to the whole.  The point I was making if you would like to review it, was that the numbers of MP's with said experience is a pittance when set against what there was in the past.  I am sure this select group will have a variance between the skill sets/exposure they gained as well, as do us all.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: E.R. Campbell on August 11, 2016, 18:20:52
This is the third government I have worked for, I am not seeing anything different than the previous Liberal one from the inside, other than Chreatian keeping his shirt on. The Liberal Party has not changed much, despite a few shining stars in Cabinet.


Lemme see, now: John Diefenbaker and Lester Pearson alternated being PM when I first joined; then I served while Pierre Trudeau and (briefly) Joe Clark were in power (those were the real "decadesof darkness;" then it was John Turner, Brian Mulroney and Kim Campbell ~ yes, Turner and Campbell actually were PMs; then it was Jean Chrétien and what I would call a "decade of dimness" (I retired while JC was PM); Paul Martin and Stephen Harper followed and both wanted to do something but the "military machine" was, especially in its "brain" and "central nervous system" too old, and creaky and rusted out and seized up; now we have Justin Trudeau. So I served under eight PMs (four PC and 4 Liberal) and I've watched three more (one CPC and two Liberals) (total of 11 prime minister) and I think I can say, honestly, that each did pretty much what Canadians wanted, tempered, in most cases, by what more powerful allied political leaders demanded, too. I don't think governments, per se, are pro or anti-military ~ some leaders PET and JC, were, but their desires are tempered by their cabinet, the PM is "primes inter pares" which means he's still somewhat restrained by our system. Canadians don't want war ~ who does? and they don't like military adventurism and they would much, much rather see their taxes either lowered or spent on social programmes than see defence spending increased.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on August 11, 2016, 19:21:23
He's one man, amongst not too many men and women in the present HoC that have military experience in ratio to the whole.  The point I was making if you would like to review it, was that the numbers of MP's with said experience is a pittance when set against what there was in the past.  I am sure this select group will have a variance between the skill sets/exposure they gained as well, as do us all.

You're right, but they were also the veterans of WWII. Less another large scale war on that magnitude, having a former commander in parliament is about as good as you're getting.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Brad Sallows on August 11, 2016, 20:31:32
>Once again, former Commander of the Canadian Army... I'd say pretty knowledgable

I referred to "more Liberals", not "one Liberal".
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 12, 2016, 01:52:31
The CAF and Canadians and JT best be careful what they wish for. It may come true.


Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 14, 2016, 18:49:34
A few more tea leaves to read ...

* -- Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: E.R. Campbell on August 14, 2016, 19:56:53
A few more tea leaves to read ...
  • "The Security Council today authorized a 4,000-strong regional protection force within the United Nations Mission in South Sudan (UNMISS), “responsible for providing a secure environment in and around Juba,” the capital, which in early July was the scene of the latest eruption of deadly violence in the young country, exacerbating an already desperate humanitarian situation ..." (http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=54677#.V7DlQKL52AV) (U.N. News Centre)
  • "Canada welcomes UN Security Council decision to strengthen UN Mission in South Sudan" (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1111189&tp=980) (Foreign Affairs Info-machine)
  • "The Spokesperson of South Sudan President Salva Kiir angrily reacted on Friday to a resolution of the United Nations Security Council authorizing deployment of up to /4000 troops to protect civilians at risk of extreme violence and to help in the implementation of peace agreement.  Presidential Spokesperson Ateny Wek Ateny, told the media late on Friday that the government of President Salva Kiir on whose behalf he spoke, will not cooperate with the United Nations approved force ..." (http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article59917) (Sudan Tribune)
  • "South Sudan softens stance on UN peacekeeping force -- Presidential spokesperson says government will accept force if it can negotiate its size, mandate, weapons and members ..." (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/08/south-sudan-softens-stance-peacekeeping-force-160814085940136.html) (Al Jazeera)
  • "Defence Minister Harjit S. Sajjan will hold a teleconference on Monday, August 15th 2016 to provide an update on his trip to Africa.  The Minister is currently on a five-country* visit to Africa where he is meeting with African partners as part of a fact-finding trip to inform Canada’s re-engagement in peace support operations ..." (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1111189&tp=980) (DND Info-machine)

* -- Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda


The links suggests we might join these guys (and gals) ...

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fp1.img.cctvpic.com%2Fphotoworkspace%2Fcontentimg%2F2014%2F12%2F22%2F2014122220385357364.jpg&hash=dd3ab6eca606399715e14ed1ee6744ed)

... who are already taking casualties (http://www.wsj.com/articles/violence-in-south-sudan-kills-chinese-u-n-peacekeeper-1468224678).
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 14, 2016, 21:20:20

The links suggests we might join these guys (and gals) ...

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fp1.img.cctvpic.com%2Fphotoworkspace%2Fcontentimg%2F2014%2F12%2F22%2F2014122220385357364.jpg&hash=dd3ab6eca606399715e14ed1ee6744ed)

... who are already taking casualties (http://www.wsj.com/articles/violence-in-south-sudan-kills-chinese-u-n-peacekeeper-1468224678).
Some media outlets are saying it was sorta-kinda China's idea (or they brought it up, anyway) (http://pakobserver.net/2016/08/14/beijing-proposes-s-sudan-protection-forces-deployment/) ...

I doubt the DefMin will commit on Monday, but it'll be interesting to see/hear what he has to say at tomorrow's chat with media.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 15, 2016, 11:27:25
I doubt the DefMin will commit on Monday.....
If I was the gambling type, I'd wager that any  announcement will be the sole purview of the Prime Minister....most likely at his September UN meeting photo op.

Interestingly, given the comment by E.R. Campbell above, Chinese Premier Li Keqiang's state visit to Canada -- the first since 2010 -- will occur during the week before the expected UN announcement.


:pop:   <---- me, on the edge of my seat.    /not so much
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 15, 2016, 12:00:11
If I was the gambling type, I'd wager that any  announcement will be the sole purview of the Prime Minister....most likely at his September UN meeting photo op.

Interestingly, given the comment by E.R. Campbell above, Chinese Premier Li Keqiang's state visit to Canada -- the first since 2010 -- will occur during the week before the expected UN announcement.


:pop:   <---- me, on the edge of my seat.    /not so much
More grist for the mill, indeed.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 15, 2016, 14:19:51
Meanwhile in the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/09/chinas-relationship-with-uk-at-risk-over-hinkley-point-delay-war/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/11/nuclear-espionage-charge-for-china-firm-with-one-third-stake-in-hinkley-point

Hinckley Point is a proposed nuclear power plant in the UK being built by a French company - EDF - with Chinese backing.  It was approved by David Cameron and George Osborne over the objections of Theresa May.  At the time she was the Home Secretary and responsible for MI5.

After she became Prime Minister EDF tried to back her into a corner by organizing a grand project launch ceremony - The French and the Chinese were already booked. 

Prime Minister May - called a halt to the project and imposed an indefinite delay on it.  The French and the Chinese were not amused.

Now back to your discussions about CANZUK agreements (Canada - Australia - New Zealand  - United Kingdom) and our Prime Minister's appreciation for the way the Chinese Government is capable of managing its citizenry.

Journeyman will need an extra bucket of popcorn - and a couple of flats of beer for this one.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on August 15, 2016, 14:57:46
Funny speaking of the Chinese in UN terms...I walked into my UMS in Haiti when on OP HALO and found about 30 Chinese dudes in there on a tour.  "What's this I ask?"  Guy looks at me with a straight face and says "They're Chinese National Police and they're here to train the HNP about riot control."  I just shook my head and walked out...when you consider that many of the militaries represented in MINUSTAH were a who's who of South American human rights violators, I shouldn't have been surprised.  Thankfully the HNP would have had a hard time redoing Tiananmen Square with taptaps.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 15, 2016, 16:01:18
Another interesting element to throw into the mix -- this from a few days ago (http://allafrica.com/stories/201608110683.html), from African media, shared under the Fair Use provisions of the Copyright Act:
Quote
Somalia: Ethiopia And Canada to Restore Peace in the Country

Ethiopia and Canada will see increase in their exchanges in the fields of peacekeeping and security, according to Canadian Minister of Defense, Harjit Singh Sajjan.

The Minister (Friday) met and discussed with Prime Minister Hailemariam Dessalegn in Addis Ababa.

"It is a great opportunity for Canada and Ethiopia to build this relationship. We have had a long tradition of working together as militaries from Korea to many different UN missions we have conducted," the Canadian Minister told journalists following his meeting with Hailemariam.

Minister Sajjan appreciated Ethiopia's endeavors and the so far contribution in peacekeeping missions in the Horn of Africa and beyond.

"It [Ethiopia] is already showing a leadership role," he said, adding Canada values Ethiopia's contribution in trying to bring stability to Somalia and the South Sudan.

He said Canada is interested to cooperate with Ethiopian in areas of peacekeeping and security, with further interest to enhance cooperation in other fields such as trade and investment.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Larry Strong on August 15, 2016, 16:08:37
Apparently in for a long time........shared under the Fair Use provisions of the Copyright Act: 

Canada's military plan for Africa will be for a 'long duration,' says Sajjan


Quote
OTTAWA -- Defense Minister Harjit Sajjan says he will soon announce a plan to send Canadian troops on a long-term mission to Africa.

Sajjan says while no decisions have been made yet on numbers, timing or location, Canada's contribution to a United Nations mission will involve more than the military and go beyond what would be considered a traditional peacekeeping role.

Sajjan made the comment in a teleconference marking the end of a five-country, fact-finding mission to Africa.


The minister visited Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda before making his final stop in the Democratic Republic of the Congo during the eight-day trip.

He was accompanied by former Supreme Court of Canada justice Louise Arbour, who is also a former UN high commissioner for human rights, and retired lieutenant-general Romeo Dallaire, who once commanded a UN peacekeeping force in Rwanda.

Defence and Global Affairs department officials have been assessing the possibility of Canada joining UN peacekeeping operations in Mali or the Central African Republic.


Cheers
Larry

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canada-s-military-plan-for-africa-will-be-for-a-long-duration-says-sajjan-1.3029508
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: blackberet17 on August 15, 2016, 16:37:09
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fp1.img.cctvpic.com%2Fphotoworkspace%2Fcontentimg%2F2014%2F12%2F22%2F2014122220385357364.jpg&hash=dd3ab6eca606399715e14ed1ee6744ed)

Nice watch.

Is it only the guys on the end who get wpns?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loch Sloy! on August 15, 2016, 16:48:18
An interesting look at the kit the Chinese brought with them;
http://eng.mod.gov.cn/DefenseNews/2015-04/10/content_4579404.htm (http://eng.mod.gov.cn/DefenseNews/2015-04/10/content_4579404.htm)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on August 15, 2016, 17:24:42
The Globe and Mail has given its thoughts on the subject:
Quote
Globe editorial: The Liberals promised peacekeeping, but it’s not 1957 any more
The Globe and Mail
14 Aug 2016

As he makes a whirlwind trip through half a dozen African countries, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan is speaking honestly about a term beloved of many Canadians, particularly Liberal voters: peacekeeping.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s election platform promised: “We will renew Canada’s commitment to peacekeeping operations.”
 
Problem: The peacekeeping that Baby Boomers grew up with, and that some Canadians still mythologize, no longer exists. As invented by Lester Pearson, it involved troops standing on an international border or ceasefire line, placed between two states that wanted to prevent incidents that might restart a war.

But traditional peacekeeping is a business that died a long time ago. There’s a great demand for it in Canadian domestic politics, but nowhere else. Mr. Sajjan acknowledged this recently, saying that the “terminology of ‘peacekeeping’ is not valid at this time.”

The word “peace” is still part of the Liberal government’s emerging policy, but it means something very different. The prevailing phrase is “peace support operations.” Those operations may include combat. And “peace support” does not necessarily imply that there is an existing state of peace in the country or region in question.

Indeed, one of the “peace supports” in this evolving doctrine will be “more forceful military action required to establish peaceful conditions,” as some of its advocates put it. Call it peace imposition. Call it war.

The ironic upshot may well turn out to be that the Trudeau government, having campaigned in 2015 on what sounded like traditional Pearsonian peacekeeping, will end up having a more muscular foreign policy than anything the ostensibly hardline Harper government ever aspired to.

Some of the African countries Canada is considering sending “peacekeepers” to are dangerous places. It is telling that the Canadian Forces’ experience with so-called “peace operations” in Afghanistan is seen as helpful. Our troops in Afghanistan were not peacekeeping. They fought a war, and one more deadly than any Canadians had faced since the Korean War.

The Liberal spin-doctors want something they can brand “peacekeeping.” The government should be very careful about using and misusing that label, lest it end up deceiving the public, and itself.
   
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/the-liberals-promised-peacekeeping-but-its-not-1957-any-more/article31393784/

If it was the minister's intent to shift the vernacular of the public conversation (http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,123590.msg1449235.html#msg1449235), then it would seem he is meeting his goals.  This is good.  "Peace support" has been the language of Canadian military doctrine for at least 20 years now.  If the Canadian media and public bring themselves to start speaking on the topic in the same language that the military is speaking, then they are that much closer to sharing our understanding of the topic.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MARS on August 15, 2016, 17:49:11
The Comments Sections are best avoided, but occasionally you come across a little gem:

Quote
Canada and Lester B Pearson did not 'invent' peacekeeping. That is a Canadian Liberal myth that the media is pleased to propagate. In a Ruxted Group report http://ruxted.ca/archives/12-Peace-Making,-not-Peacekeeping-is-the-order-of-the-day.html provides the real history - Peacekeeping was invented in 1948 by Ralph Bunche (US) and Brain Urguhart (UK). Peacekeeping (blue berets and binoculars), has been replaced with Peace Support operations (body armour and bullets).

Go Ruxted!!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 15, 2016, 18:02:15
And the UNEF peacekeeping force for Sinai in 1956 was not just a brilliant idea of Mike Pearson's--see second para here (with some personal background):

Quote
Canadian Suez Policy was not About the Middle East
http://www.cdfai.org.previewmysite.com/the3dsblog/?p=105

Mark Collins
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 15, 2016, 18:12:48
And the UNEF peacekeeping force for Sinai in 1956 was not just a brilliant idea of Mike Pearson's--see second para here (with some personal background):

Mark Collins

And now the return "East of Suez".

https://imperialglobalexeter.com/2016/05/10/britains-return-east-of-suez-a-historical-perspective/

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 15, 2016, 18:40:12
And the UNEF peacekeeping force for Sinai in 1956 was not just a brilliant idea of Mike Pearson's--see second para here (with some personal background):

Mark Collins

The other aspect of that operation that people forget is how it impressed and influenced the future PM Pearson on the importance of a distinct Canadian identity.

Most of the equipment for the Canadian UNEF force contingent was shipped onboard HMCS MAGNIFICENT, Canada's then aircraft carrier. But like all Canadian warship of the time, she flew the same White Ensign as the RN ships, and the Egyptian threatened to sink her if she entered their waters. A quick "re-branding" using a combination of the Canadian blue and red ensigns was required as last ditch measure. Later, as PM, Pearson remembered this important draw back in independent operations abroad and that is what caused him to seek the adoption of a completely distinct and "non-British" Canadian flag, Diefenbaker's tears notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: E.R. Campbell on August 15, 2016, 18:54:01
You may recall that the first Canadian contingent to UNEF was supposed to be the Queens Own Rifles of Canada (QORofC) but Egyptian President Nasser objected, on the not unreasonable grounds that he would not be able to explain to his own people why a regiment that "belonged" to the same queen whose aemy had just invaded Egypt was now being sent to "keep the peace."

A very nimble Canadian Army general staff very quickly tasked the Armoured Corps, Signals, and the Ordnance, Service and RCEME corps to cobble together squadron/company sized units that were, of course, a real godsend to the force commander and that became the template for other UN missions, including the Congo, UNEF II and the Golan Heights.

There's a brilliant cartoon about it ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on August 15, 2016, 21:44:11
You may recall that the first Canadian contingent to UNEF was supposed to be the Queens Own Rifles of Canada (QORofC) but Egyptian President Nasser objected, on the not unreasonable grounds that he would not be able to explain to his own people why a regiment that "belonged" to the same queen whose aemy had just invaded Egypt was now being sent to "keep the peace."

A very nimble Canadian Army general staff very quickly tasked the Armoured Corps, Signals, and the Ordnance, Service and RCEME corps to cobble together squadron/company sized units that were, of course, a real godsend to the force commander and that became the template for other UN missions, including the Congo, UNEF II and the Golan Heights.

There's a brilliant cartoon about it ...

Ted

As I recall, the real downside was that one of the QOR battalions was posted to Egypt from Currie Barracks in Calgary. The system reacted and made them clear out on posting, including vacating their PMQs which then went to the next folks on the list. When the deployment was cancelled, they came back to Calgary and the members who had been in PMQs went to the bottom of the waiting list. (I was in high school at the time, but saw a newspaper story about it. The QOR officer who was BM of 4 CIBG confirmed the story to me ten years after the event.) It may be a military legend, but it sounds like something the army of the time would have pulled.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Blackadder1916 on August 15, 2016, 23:46:10
. . .  the first Canadian contingent to UNEF was supposed to be the Queens Own Rifles of Canada (QORofC) . . .

While it doesn't get into a detailed explanation for the rejection of the QOR, this is an interesting clip about the preparations of the battalion and the "Maggie".

http://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/blue-berets-help-not-wanted
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 16, 2016, 07:31:59
Narrowing it down a bit, then ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on August 16, 2016, 10:17:24
He's waiting for Telford and Butts to tell Trudeau what to decide. Dollars to donuts they even have the size nailed down, and the minister's report is "taken under advisement" and then promptly placed in the Somalia Photocopier™.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 10:28:58
He's waiting for Telford and Butts to tell Trudeau what to decide.

This stuff gets tiring.  Unless you were there, you have no idea, proof, or even suggesting evidence that this is the case.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on August 16, 2016, 11:10:27
This stuff gets tiring.  Unless you were there, you have no idea, proof, or even suggesting evidence that this is the case.

Indeed.

PuckChaser, you forgot Dion.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 16, 2016, 11:23:44
Journeyman will need an extra bucket of popcorn - and a couple of flats of beer for this one.
If that's what it takes....  :nod:       :cheers:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: GAP on August 16, 2016, 11:25:30
Indeed.

PuckChaser, you forgot Dion.

Hmmm.....that's a little above his paygrade.....no?.....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lumber on August 16, 2016, 11:29:15
This stuff gets tiring.  Unless you were there, you have no idea, proof, or even suggesting evidence that this is the case.

Lol... if you think you can convince the gentlemen on this site, with your words alone, that our current PM is nothing more than a puppet for the Laurentian elites, then as they say, "You done come to the wrong town, partner".
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on August 16, 2016, 11:32:21
This stuff gets tiring.  Unless you were there, you have no idea, proof, or even suggesting evidence that this is the case.

It is rather naive to think that Telford and Butts are not 'right in there' advising Trudeau what to do. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on August 16, 2016, 11:34:50
Lol... if you think you can convince the gentlemen on this site, with your words alone, that our current PM is nothing more than a puppet for the Laurentian elites, then as they say, "You done come to the wrong town, partner".

Unless he was there, he has no idea, proof, or even suggesting evidence that this is not the case.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 11:39:41
It is rather naive to think that Telford and Butts are not 'right in there' advising Trudeau what to do.

I'm sure they are advising him.  I doubt that they're puppet masters, as many here seem to constantly imply.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on August 16, 2016, 11:40:48
It is rather naive to think that Telford and Butts are not 'right in there' advising Trudeau what to do.

Yeah, does not make a tin foil hat to believe that the PM's BFF since uni and former WWF kingpin is not making some inroads into how Canada is run.  And those inroads likely are counter to how the country has been run successfully in the past.  As for ``Laurentian elites``, I am not sure what rock face they are standing on but they don`t shop where I do.  The reality is that there is a group of people who by hook, crook, or cash attempt to control a lot of stuff that can get you and me maimed, killed or taxed to death. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 11:45:32
Yeah, does not make a tin foil hat to believe that the PM's BFF since uni and former WWF kingpin is not making some inroads into how Canada is run.  And those inroads likely are counter to how the country has been run successfully in the past. 

Counter?  I've seen nothing that differs much from Chretien or even Harper when it comes to economic policy, or even foreign policy (somewhat different from Harper there, but not that much.

Sorry, I'm off topic.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 16, 2016, 11:51:39
This stuff gets tiring.  Unless you were there, you have no idea, proof, or even suggesting evidence that this is the case.
How magnificently ironic.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lumber on August 16, 2016, 11:55:22
Sorry, I'm off topic.

This is what happens when you lock the political thread...

Unless he was there, he has no idea, proof, or even suggesting evidence that this is not the case.

...

touché...

In any case, I'm just excited to find out what the mission is so I can see if they need an OpsO or other staff job I can apply for.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 12:22:39
How magnificently ironic.

That was actually, exactly the point.  I get stomped on for evidenced claims that experience tells some here to disagree with.  Politics is something I've studied for years - people providing un-evidenced claims are definitely something I was going to stomp on.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 12:23:40
Unless he was there, he has no idea, proof, or even suggesting evidence that this is not the case.

I don't have to prove that something that you have no proof of doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on August 16, 2016, 12:32:50
:rofl:   That must have been autocorrect;  the term you were looking for is "repetitious."

Nope, according to the CFSME handout on the C7, repetitious is something you put your C7 on.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 16, 2016, 12:35:31
Nope, according to the CFSME handout on the C7, repetitious is something you put your C7 on.
Yes.  I'd deleted the comment because it's really not worth the effort.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on August 16, 2016, 12:37:09
I don't have to prove that something that you have no proof of doesn't exist.

AH!  The Jean Chretien School of Philosophy: "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on August 16, 2016, 12:47:54
AH!  The Jean Chretien School of Philosophy: "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."

The live version is even better than words, GW.  :nod:

Jean Chretien - A proof is a proof (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLmUJCCKBTk).
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 13:13:15
AH!  The Jean Chretien School of Philosophy: "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."

It's well established that you don't have to prove a negative.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: GAP on August 16, 2016, 13:29:25
It's well established that you don't have to prove a negative.


and this is what is coming out of the gene pool that elected this government.......lord love a duck!!   ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on August 16, 2016, 13:31:13
It's well established that you don't have to prove a negative.

I believe that you have fallen afoul of a fallacy. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lumber on August 16, 2016, 14:16:58
I believe that you have fallen afoul of a fallacy.

Me: Prove to me that there is a god.

Relgious people: Prove to me that there isn't a god.

Me: No.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 15:12:14

and this is what is coming out of the gene pool that elected this government.......lord love a duck!!   ::)

Yes logic is a real killer in society.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on August 16, 2016, 15:29:47
hmm all seems vaguely familiar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNkjDuSVXiE


Meanwhile, it seems they are trying out balloons to see what the public might think about all this adventurism. Peacekeeping in Africa is really trying to square the circle. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 16:07:28
We can't know that until we see the details of what's going to happen.  It's likely they're feeling for responses of what people would accept.  We'll have to see what they come up with before we can properly judge.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on August 16, 2016, 16:15:23
Why? Politicians are always quite quick to judge and act before the facts are known.  [:)

The Liberals want/need a Peacekeeping adventure that fits the myth. Sanijin has the difficult job of attempting to make his parties desire into reality. Frankly I am glad they have the ex-military representation they do have in order to educate the rest of them on reality. Those people may be able to move this from a massive Cluster.... to just a bad idea.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on August 16, 2016, 16:30:24
Some politicians more than others.

As long as there is a need for help somewhere in Africa (or elsewhere), the necessary help can be delivered at reasonable cost and risk, the help provided is likely to improve the lot of the people in that somewhere, and this government genuinely wishes to do something constructive, I can support a deployment.

I do not, however, believe that to be the case.

It looks more like a vanity-fulfillment exercise to me than anything else.

If CF members are going to be maimed and killed, it had better be for the right reason.

I do not think that I have EVER had reservations about a potential mission before. I do not know if I have changed, post-Afghanistan, if I simply do not trust this government, or a bit of both, but I strongly suspect that my reservation is more Number 2 than 1 or 3.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 16:49:44
So your reservations are mostly political.  That's the reality that you've presented.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on August 16, 2016, 17:01:48
So your reservations are mostly political.

The reason for going to Africa is wholly political point-scoring. There's no "Responsibility to Protect" narrative, there's no push to go to Mali to stem the tide of Islamic extremism. We get a "fact-finding" tour, going to only 1 active UN mission and visiting a bunch of third-world countries who contribute vast amounts of warm bodies because the UN pays the country $1300 USD a month per soldier deployed.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on August 16, 2016, 17:09:09
My belief, based upon several decades of fairly close observation of Homo Liberalis, is that this government is more interested in doing what will look good to the facebookarazzi than in doing something that is actually good.

No mission calls, but they will find one anyway, dammit, no matter what it takes.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 16, 2016, 17:09:27
I am glad they have the ex-military representation they do have in order to educate the rest of them on reality.
Dependent, of course, on the receiving callsigns' ability/willingness to be educated ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on August 16, 2016, 17:19:34
So your reservations are mostly political.  That's the reality that you've presented.

Not a wrong thing, particularly in light of what Clausewitz espoused...n'est-ce pas?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 16, 2016, 17:48:44
Just a refresher on African countries currently engaged in war, insurgency and civil strife:

Western Sahara
Mauritania
Morocco
Mali
Algeria
Tunisia
Libya
Niger
Chad
Nigeria
Cameroon
Central African Republic
Democratic Republic of the Congo
Angola
Burundi
Mozambique
Uganda
Kenya
Somalia
Ethiopia
South Sudan
Sudan

And, of course Egypt which - by virtue of the Sinai brings us into Asia and

Israel
Palestine
Saudi Arabia
Yemen
Iraq
Iran
Pakistan
Afghanistan
India
Bangladesh
Myanmar
Thailand
Phillipines
West Papua

And then there is
Lebanon
Syria
Turkey
Azerbaijan
Armenia
The Caucasus
And of course

Ukraine.

All of those conflicts are contiguous

Now, where do you want to put your 1000 Canadians so that the Millenium will arrive, Jesus will come and peace will break out?



Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 16, 2016, 17:58:34
Since we dragged out good old Von Clausewitz, remember that War is diplomacy by a different means.

What would Canada's diplomatic aims in Africa be that justify getting involved in wars?

And Chris, why don't you make life easier on yourself next time and just list the few African countries NOT engaged in war, insurgency or civil strife  [:D.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 16, 2016, 18:30:42

And Chris, why don't you make life easier on yourself next time and just list the few African countries NOT engaged in war, insurgency or civil strife  [:D.

Nothing succeeds like excess!   [:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 23:49:39
My belief, based upon several decades of fairly close observation of Homo Liberalis, is that this government is more interested in doing what will look good to the facebookarazzi than in doing something that is actually good.

And the same was true of the Conservatives, doing things that looked good to the people who were more likely to support them.  What of it?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 16, 2016, 23:50:36
The reason for going to Africa is wholly political point-scoring.

Every mission in recent memory, including Afghanistan, was political.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on August 17, 2016, 00:37:28
Every mission in recent memory, including Afghanistan, was political.
The Taliban government harboured a terrorist group who committed a mass murder of civilians on an allied countries soil. That's an act of war.

Just because you refuse to see this foolish entry into Africa for what it is, doesn't make it any less true.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 17, 2016, 01:08:03
The Taliban government harboured a terrorist group who committed a mass murder of civilians on an allied countries soil. That's an act of war.

And that makes our response not political in what way?

Just because you happen to like the politics involved, it doesn't make it any less political.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on August 17, 2016, 01:10:46
You're equating response to mass murder of civilians because they weren't of a certain religion to deploying troops to Africa so someone can win a UNSC seat? Really?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on August 17, 2016, 01:13:57
You're equating response to mass murder of civilians because they weren't of a certain religion to deploying troops to Africa so someone can win a UNSC seat? Really?

Are civilians not being murdered at an alarming rate in Africa?  Often because of religion?

Do you not understand how the very fact that we choose to ally ourselves with the US, and responded in the way we did to September 11, 2001, is just as political as any move we might make into Africa?

Could it not be argued that we're supporting our allies by fighting Islamic terror in Africa, taking on a UN mission there?

Do you have it from anyone that this is being done simply to win a UNSC seat?

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 17, 2016, 08:51:34
Let's see if Team Red does what they always insisted Team Blue do (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/08/16/liberals-africa-mission-debate-vote-parliament_n_11548730.html) ...
Quote
Liberals won't confirm if a House of Commons debate and vote will be held before they commit Canadian troops to Africa for what's expected to be a lengthy mission.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan announced Monday that the federal government will soon unveil Canada's expanded contribution to United Nations peace efforts, but did not reveal precisely where.

(...)

But iPolitics reports that Sajjan, who was wrapping up a five-day fact-finding mission in Africa, did not answer when he was asked if a vote would be held in Parliament on future peace operation deployments.

Sajjan's spokeswoman Jordan Owens told The Huffington Post Canada that Liberals were clear about their priorities on the campaign trail last fall. She highlighted Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's mandate letters to Sajjan, Foreign Affairs Minister Stephane Dion, and International Development Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau ...
Funny how things look different when the seats in the House are facing the other way ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on August 17, 2016, 09:37:11
Are civilians not being murdered at an alarming rate in Africa?  Often because of religion?

And elsewhere. But let's pick somewhere arbitrarily, rather than assess greatest need, reasonable chance of success, acceptable risk and cost and ability to support, though, because it's whatever year it is.

Do you not understand how the very fact that we choose to ally ourselves with the US, and responded in the way we did to September 11, 2001, is just as political as any move we might make into Africa?

Support to allies, and responding to clear threats, is rather a different level of political than votes and vanity above all else.

Could it not be argued that we're supporting our allies by fighting Islamic terror in Africa, taking on a UN mission there?

Yes, but ... Have we been asked? Is the government looking for/willing to accept a fight against terrorism, or a mythical blue-beret mission so that it can make another silly claim that "Canada is back"?

Do you have it from anyone that this is being done simply to win a UNSC seat?

Beyond campaign promises and statements?

There are legitimate reasons to become involved in many places in the world. Many of us would support involvement in every one of those, if we had the capability and improvement was likely. No reasonable person likes to see people suffer, especially when something can be done to help.

Sadly, we cannot do that.

We should, however, do what we can.

What irks me, though, is the poor process that is driving this.

The current government made some rather outlandish campaign promises, which is easy to do when one does not expect to ever have to follow up on them. These include, but are not limited to:

- Holding an "open competition" (still undefined by anyone) to select a fighter replacement - but NOT including F35.

- Rushing in 25000 Syrian refugees because of a photograph of a drowned boy on a beach that generated mass sympathy and therefore votes. The number was a rectal extraction. No thought was given to our ability to successfully integrate and support that many in that period of time, or to any security issues, which were a perfectly valid concern. Regarding the number, perhaps we can actually absorb more without difficulty in a short period - but that is not the point. Nobody in government, or in NGOs that support refugees, thought that rushing was a good thing to do, other than those running the Liberal Party election machine. No other refugees were "worthy" of consideration either. Syrians had suddenly become fashionable. I had been involved in a private sponsorship of a Burundian refugee family prior to that. They had been hopelessly trapped in a refugee camp for twelve years, the father severely injured and almost killed in an attack while there, and there are many thousands of Burundians still stuck in that "life" style. What about Middle-Eastern Christians and Yazidis, who have been brutally slaughtered and abused in a variety of ways? What about the Afghan interpreters and their families who we left behind? What about ... and ... and ...? Are Liberals unaware that these people exist? Or do they simply not care? The APPEARANCE is that the Syrians were merely backdrop for photo ops. And, by the way, I have a Syrian refugee family as neighbours (again, privately sponsored, with the process started long before the last election even though they arrived afterwards), and they are great people, working hard to integrate, the father and two oldest boys are employed, and I am happy that they are here and safe. It would have looked better, however, if a few equally-deserving members of other ethnic groups had been included in the 25000, or if measures were being taken to bring some in later/now - but the election's over, media coverage was great, and we can all get back to really important things like the Kardashians.

- Finding a "traditional" and safe UN Peacekeeping mission, despite significant changes in the world since those days (and significant differences between myth and reality even back then). It's got to be a UN mission, though. Those are the only ones "good enough". Stuff that we've done elsewhere - like Afghanistan - under other mandates, doesn't count.

- Reeling in that UN Security Council seat.

Had we received an invitation to help out somewhere, and had this government conducted an honest appraisal of the potential benefit to those in need, the risks to our troops and other supporters, our ability to support without bending/straining/breaking the organization again, and the cost, then I could back it. There is NO indication that this is the case, and plenty to the contrary.

I will freely admit that I neither like nor trust the current prime minister, nor any members of his party, nor his party in general, based upon considerable history. I was also less than impressed, and increasingly critical of, their predecessors. I will give both credit and blame where and when due, freely, to anyone, regardless of party, however.

We have put people into unacceptable situations - futile, risky, and lacking adequate support - before. I was aware enough of those then, but am more aware today. I have been to too many ramp ceremonies, repatriations, funerals, and memorials. Real need and real chance of success, providing that real support is given to those deploying, are acceptable. Personal vanity of the God-Emperor and votes are not.

And it certainly appears that vanity and votes are the critical factors.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on August 17, 2016, 11:56:24
Let's see if Team Red does what they always insisted Team Blue do (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/08/16/liberals-africa-mission-debate-vote-parliament_n_11548730.html) ...Funny how things look different when the seats in the House are facing the other way ...
I would like to see a vote.  Not because I think the executive needs permission from the legislative, but because I would like to see a budget specifically approved to execute this mission without costs coming out of the CAF's hide.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 17, 2016, 11:59:15
I would like to see a vote.  Not because I think the executive needs permission from the legislative, but because I would like to see a budget specifically approved to execute this mission without costs coming out of the CAF's hide.
I'd like to see a debate/discussion, too, just to hear what messaging all sides have to share.  I don't think previous votes on missions/tasks have included budgets (again, I stand to be corrected), so I don't think any would be forthcoming here if/when it comes to the House.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on August 17, 2016, 12:24:01
Team Red will do exactly as Team Blue, no vote and the troops will pick up bottles along the highway to pay for the mission. AND there will be a constant parade of ministers visiting the troops to tell us how this mission is the result of; climate change, poor diplomacy, too many guns, lack of UN seat for Canada, social inequality, insert (ministerial responsibility) here.  No one will blame the trigger pullers or their leadership and we will stay until we are a vital part of the local GDP.   
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jed on August 17, 2016, 12:43:35
Team Red will do exactly as Team Blue, no vote and the troops will pick up bottles along the highway to pay for the mission. AND there will be a constant parade of ministers visiting the troops to tell us how this mission is the result of; climate change, poor diplomacy, too many guns, lack of UN seat for Canada, social inequality, insert (ministerial responsibility) here.  No one will blame the trigger pullers or their leadership and we will stay until we are a vital part of the local GDP.


"The truth? You can't handle the truth!"
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 17, 2016, 12:55:10
On the subject of supporting allies:

Our allies just recently asked for our support - in Latvia.
Previously they asked for it in Iraq and Syria.

We could be reinforcing ongoing efforts. 

I will be interested to see if we end up supporting the French in Mali, swanning off on our own unique mission or penny packeting a region.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 17, 2016, 12:58:22
I will be interested to see if we end up supporting the French in Mali again, swanning off on our own unique mission or penny packeting a region.
FTFY  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 17, 2016, 13:28:50
I wonder what hotel we'll be giving the staff PTSD at for decompression.  Treetops hotel looks nice  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 17, 2016, 13:46:49
Chris Pook: Last year President Obama specifically asked Western countries to do more for UN operations:

Quote
US-Backed UN “Killer Peacekeeping”: Would Canadians Support Taking Substantial Part?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/09/28/mark-collins-us-backed-un-killer-peacekeeping-would-canadians-support-taking-substantial-part/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 17, 2016, 15:21:38
Seen Mark.

All that has to be done is picking a target....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on August 17, 2016, 16:13:32
Seen Mark.

All that has to be done is picking a target....
If it's going to be one of THOSE missions, the Ukrainians could actually share some tips with us...
-- "UN helicopters attack Ugandan rebels in DR Congo" (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-3509667/UN-helicopters-attack-Ugandan-rebels-DR-Congo.html) (March 2016)
-- "Ukraine helicopter unit mainstay of UN peacekeeping operations in DR Congo" (http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/10727.html) (Nov 2013)
That said ...
-- "U.N. Copter Raid Kills Five Bystanders" (https://warisboring.com/u-n-copter-raid-kills-five-bystanders-62bad88e4760#.v9w749yu3) (Oct 2015)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on August 18, 2016, 00:32:14
If it's going to be one of THOSE missions, the Ukrainians could actually share some tips with us...
-- "UN helicopters attack Ugandan rebels in DR Congo" (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-3509667/UN-helicopters-attack-Ugandan-rebels-DR-Congo.html) (March 2016)
-- "Ukraine helicopter unit mainstay of UN peacekeeping operations in DR Congo" (http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/10727.html) (Nov 2013)
That said ...
-- "U.N. Copter Raid Kills Five Bystanders" (https://warisboring.com/u-n-copter-raid-kills-five-bystanders-62bad88e4760#.v9w749yu3) (Oct 2015)

So IFOR rather than UNPROFOR.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on August 18, 2016, 00:39:18
So IFOR rather than UNPROFOR.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reactiongifs.com%2Fr%2Fsrcstc.gif&hash=3449430b6917099bfbb858d1539d7fec)
Title: Liberals commit $450M, up to 600 troops to UN peacekeeping missions
Post by: MCG on August 26, 2016, 11:34:31
Liberals commit $450M, up to 600 troops to UN peacekeeping missions (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-peacekeeping-announcement-1.3736593), but you will have to wait until next month to find out where we are going.

Since a dollar value is being given, it would be nice to see Parliament approve this as a special approvisionnement.   
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 26, 2016, 11:37:00
At least we have new  tan boots,  that'll save money.

Off topic but does anyone know if the new combats (mandarin collar)  come in arid CADPAT?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 26, 2016, 11:58:13
At least we have new  tan boots,  that'll save money.

Off topic but does anyone know if the new combats (mandarin collar)  come in arid CADPAT?

I thought you'd be more interested in light blue paint in spray cans.   8)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on August 26, 2016, 12:24:58
At least we have new  tan boots,  that'll save money.

Off topic but does anyone know if the new combats (mandarin collar)  come in arid CADPAT?

Six months after end of mission they will.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 26, 2016, 13:02:50
Off topic but does anyone know if the new combats (mandarin collar)  come in arid CADPAT?
....along with Velcro-backed, arid jump wings; apparently  that shortcoming was critical to morale.   :nod:


Of course we have a new Army Commander now, so maybe that's been recognized as a stupid idea
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on August 26, 2016, 13:04:46
Of course we have a new Army Commander now, so maybe that's been recognized as a stupid idea

Not if we continue to have the same Army CWO I'm afraid...he's got some real bugs up his bum about these patches.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on August 27, 2016, 16:14:41
Latest from CBC:

Quote
Canada's mission in Africa will be focused on 'peacemaking,' UN ambassador says - 650 troops will be deployed to either Mali, Congo or the Central African Republic

Canada's ambassador to the UN says there will be "no quick fix" in Africa — a sign that Canadian peacekeepers waiting for deployment there could be in for a long-term commitment to the region ravaged by civil war and terrorism.

"There is no quick fix for anything in peace and security in some areas of the world and in the regions [Canada is considering for a mission]," Marc-André Blanchard said in an interview with CBC Radio's The House. He said while the road ahead might be dangerous for Canadian troops, the country has an obligation to intervene to prevent the violence from reaching our shores.

The government announced Friday it will commit $450 million to peace operations and the Canadian Armed Forces will, on top of existing commitments in the Middle East, eastern Europe and elsewhere, deploy up to 600 troops as part of the mission to Africa...

This bit is interesting:

Quote
Blanchard, a top Liberal fundraiser and corporate lawyer tapped by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to bolster Canada's role at the UN ahead of a bid for a Security Council seat in 2021, said that the new mission in Africa will be different than those of the past. A big shift will be a focus on "peacemaking" and the right of Canadian troops to protect civilians caught in the crosshairs of conflict.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/un-ambassador-peacekeeping-africa-1.3736907
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 27, 2016, 16:24:45
Latest from CBC:

This bit is interesting:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/un-ambassador-peacekeeping-africa-1.3736907
Good. Maybe everyone whining about 20 year old ROE cards can shut up now.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on August 27, 2016, 16:37:41
Good. Maybe everyone whining about 20 year old ROE cards can shut up now.

Maybe they will when they see an actual ROE card, instead of a Liberal fundraiser telling the media what military rules of engagement are.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 27, 2016, 16:37:52
....along with Velcro-backed, arid jump wings; apparently  that shortcoming was critical to morale.   :nod:


Is that really a thing?



Good. Maybe everyone whining about 20 year old ROE cards can shut up now.
Consider some of those members whining may have had to watch men women and children raped and butchered in front of their very eyes so those old ROE's are understandably a sore spot.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on August 27, 2016, 16:42:48
Maybe they will when they see an actual ROE card, instead of a Liberal fundraiser telling the media what military rules of engagement are.

Normally I'd wholeheartedly agree, but said Liberal fundraiser is also Canada's ambassador to the UN, so I'd think he has some "inside info" on the future ROE of whatever mission(s) are coming down the pipe.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on August 27, 2016, 16:51:18
Is that really a thing?

Yep, you can wear 2 specialist badges on your lower left velcro on your sleeve in CADPAT. Critical to operational effectiveness.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on August 27, 2016, 16:57:33
Good. Maybe everyone whining about 20 year old ROE cards can shut up now.

I wouldn't, until I saw the ROEIMP msg and the soldier's card.

 :2c:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 27, 2016, 17:00:30
Is that really a thing?


Consider some of those members whining may have had to watch men women and children raped and butchered in front of their very eyes so those old ROE's are understandably a sore spot.
Sure. But when you consider that nobody knows what the ROEs are going to be bring up old ROEs as a reason to whine about current peacekeeping/peacemaking is annoying.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 27, 2016, 17:02:41
Maybe they will when they see an actual ROE card, instead of a Liberal fundraiser telling the media what military rules of engagement are.
That's a great idea. Let's all wait to see what the ROEs are and then comment on them when we know what they are.

Much better than bringing up old 20 year old ROEs like they matter today.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: GAP on August 27, 2016, 17:03:45
tow the line man....tow the line....... ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on August 27, 2016, 17:05:39
That's fine.  What's one man's annoyance is another's concern.

At least those who are doubtful about better ROE are basing that on a long list of poor ROE in numerous PKOs...you know, "Deeds Speak", etc... 

Is it any less annoying to hear "Sunny ways, trust us, the ROE will be much better...?"  Probably not...

G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 27, 2016, 17:06:30
Good. Maybe everyone whining about 20 year old ROE cards can shut up now.
Unlike the "I've got no time in;  I need  a deployment so people will respect me!!" whiners?    :tempertantrum:

....annoying.
   :nod:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on August 27, 2016, 17:10:36
That's a great idea. Let's all wait to see what the ROEs are and then comment on them when we know what they are.

Much better than bringing up old 20 year old ROEs like they matter today.

Tracking. We won't bring discuss anything unless it aligns with the current government's view, that way you won't get so emotionally invested in adult discussions about ROE or the futility of yet another African "peace support operation" that really won't change anything.

Anything for a UNSC seat, am I right?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 27, 2016, 17:16:47
Tracking. We won't bring discuss anything unless it aligns with the current government's view, that way you won't get so emotionally invested in adult discussions about ROE or the futility of yet another African "peace support operation" that really won't change anything.

Anything for a UNSC seat, am I right?
Screw the UNSC seat. I'm far more selfish than that and want my deployment.

Also, let's not discuss things like ROEs being restrictive and stupid like in days past when nobody has a clue what the ROEs will be.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 27, 2016, 17:19:54
That's fine.  What's one man's annoyance is another's concern.

At least those who are doubtful about better ROE are basing that on a long list of poor ROE in numerous PKOs...you know, "Deeds Speak", etc... 

Is it any less annoying to hear "Sunny ways, trust us, the ROE will be much better...?"  Probably not...

G2G
And pray tell, when did I say that?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 27, 2016, 17:22:06
Unlike the "I've got no time in;  I need  a deployment so people will respect me!!" whiners?    :tempertantrum:
   :nod:
I have purposely not posted in here for quite some time as to stop annoying you all about my overwhelming need to actually do something worthwhile.

Nice to see that you haven't noticed.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on August 27, 2016, 17:25:42
Sure. But when you consider that nobody knows what the ROEs are going to be bring up old ROEs as a reason to whine about current peacekeeping/peacemaking is annoying.

I sure hope that you are not so naive to think that we had the same ROE's for every deployment we did since 1945.  Your attitude seems to point that way.  Your disrespect for members who have already experienced the BS involved with UN ROE's over the years does you little credit.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on August 27, 2016, 17:27:59
Screw the UNSC seat. I'm far more selfish than that and want my deployment.

There's a far easier way for you to get deployments that doesn't involve wasted effort in Africa. VOT17 is open for AESOP, or you can always apply to CANSOF. Both of those groups seem real busy.

Also, let's not discuss things like ROEs being restrictive and stupid like in days past when nobody has a clue what the ROEs will be.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
- George Santayana
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 27, 2016, 17:28:56
Disregard.  It is truly not worth the bandwidth engaging.

I hope you get your deployment, and it completes all your fantasies.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on August 27, 2016, 17:33:23
There's a far easier way for you to get deployments that doesn't involve wasted effort in Africa. VOT17 is open for AESOP, or you can always apply to CANSOF. Both of those groups seem real busy.

Remember when I mentioned AESOP?  That went over like a fart in church.

But, Altair, given what the Ambassador says we'll likely need, you will have no shortage of deployment chances in your current trade.  Bring your mosquito net and remember this conversation when you're on your 5th (or more) time over there.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 27, 2016, 17:47:30
There's a far easier way for you to get deployments that doesn't involve wasted effort in Africa. VOT17 is open for AESOP, or you can always apply to CANSOF. Both of those groups seem real busy.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
- George Santayana
If I didn't care about my family I would love to go CANSOF. I I didn't care about going through the whole switching trades, going back into the training system I would love to go AESOP. Turns out I care about both of those.


If the conversation was I hope we have learned from the past and don't have restrictive stupid ROEs that get people killed I would agree. Sadly the conversation seems to go,great we will have stupid, restrictive ROEs and people will be killed because that's what happened in the past. So, no, I don't agree with that. It's as useful as the French talking about ww1 trench warfare of twenty years prior when the Germans are rushing tanks over the meuse
Title: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: Chris Pook on August 27, 2016, 20:42:35
When they did their announcement at Bagotville I got to wondering if 2 Wing may end up being the lead element in all of this.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/2-wing/index.page
Title: Re: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 27, 2016, 21:01:27
When they did their announcement at Bagotville I got to wondering if 2 Wing may end up being the lead element in all of this.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/2-wing/index.page

Interesting hypothesis, would make it significantly less risky to have some strat airlift or helicopters involved, than actual ground troops.
Title: Re: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: MCG on August 27, 2016, 21:11:14
When they did their announcement at Bagotville I got to wondering if 2 Wing may end up being the lead element in all of this.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/2-wing/index.page 
I suspect it had more to do with location of the caucus meeting the day before.

I do not think they would deliberately link location of the announcement with the intended deploying force unless they were ready to publicly announce who will be deploying.

But, I am making assumptions.  Maybe there is a link that was not announced.
Title: Re: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: Dimsum on August 27, 2016, 21:14:19
Interesting hypothesis, would make it significantly less risky to have some strat airlift or helicopters involved, than actual ground troops.

Well, this is from the same article:

Quote
Blanchard said Canadians are not being deployed to simply supply boots on the ground but rather to provide leadership for existing troops and police officers, and to help train those local forces to confront mounting security threats — an expertise that was developed on the battlefields of Afghanistan and honed in northern Iraq in the face of ISIS.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on August 27, 2016, 23:36:31
I would hazard to guess might have something to do with the language capabilities of units in the same geographic area of those likely to be needed in the host nation, since they're all ex-French or Belgique.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on August 27, 2016, 23:47:52
I would hazard to guess might have something to do with the language capabilities of units in the same geographic area of those likely to be needed in the host nation, since they're all ex-French or Belgique.

MM

Maybe there will be more than a handful of French language courses available for us Anglos once the Vandoos and 2 Can Div get tired of being on constant deployments?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MJP on August 28, 2016, 00:04:22
Maybe there will be more than a handful of French language courses available for us Anglos once the Vandoos and 2 Can Div get tired of being on constant deployments?

Nah, they can keep the Africa task as long as they want.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: quadrapiper on August 29, 2016, 13:29:11
Maybe there will be more than a handful of French language courses available for us Anglos once the Vandoos and 2 Can Div get tired of being on constant deployments?
Don't forget VdQ and Montreal, if there's to be a maritime element added at some point. Are there RCAF French units?
Title: Re: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 29, 2016, 13:45:42
I suspect it had more to do with location of the caucus meeting the day before.
Good point (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-saguenay-electoral-reform-1.3735784) -- as well as other announcements to be made in the same place:
http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?mthd=index&crtr.page=3&nid=1117339
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 29, 2016, 13:52:50
Don't forget VdQ and Montreal, if there's to be a maritime element added at some point.
I sure hope you're not a Navigator;  if the RCN is patrolling CAR or Mali, something has gone horribly wrong.   ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 29, 2016, 14:11:08
I sure hope you're not a Navigator;  if the RCN is patrolling CAR or Mali, something has gone horribly wrong.   ;D

;D

I was checking in behind the two actors who play "Mr. Lahey and Randy", John Dunsworth and Patrick Roach at the Halifax Airport in 07.  We got into a conversation about where we each were going, they to Winnipeg for a fan fest, me to the sandbox. 

Mr. Dunsworth, bless his heart, cocked his head when I said "Afghanistan". I could see the gears moving behind the eyes, he asked in a bewildered voice "we're sending ships to Afghanistan?".  See, we go everywhere why not the CAR.  Besides, who hasn't heard of "the ships of the desert"?  ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 29, 2016, 14:40:23
I sure hope you're not a Navigator;  if the RCN is patrolling CAR or Mali, something has gone horribly wrong.   ;D

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffohn.net%2Fcamel-pictures-facts%2Fthe-pictures%2FArabian-Camel.jpg&hash=2fdbb36f0fbf23d3ee12681e00049531)

RCN's new patrol ship. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eaglelord17 on August 29, 2016, 14:46:11
Don't forget VdQ and Montreal, if there's to be a maritime element added at some point. Are there RCAF French units?

HMCS Montreal is not a French ship. VDQ is the only one.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on August 29, 2016, 15:40:58
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffohn.net%2Fcamel-pictures-facts%2Fthe-pictures%2FArabian-Camel.jpg&hash=2fdbb36f0fbf23d3ee12681e00049531)

RCN's new patrol ship.

Sand Frigate (dust, tent and fleas)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: dapaterson on August 29, 2016, 15:43:25
HMCS Montreal is not a French ship. VDQ is the only one.

MONTREAL is a bilingual ship.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lumber on August 29, 2016, 15:53:56
MONTREAL is a bilingual ship.

MONTRÉAL (you forgot the accent) is not a bilingual ship either, unless that was officially changed in the year I've been gone.. X-Ship and all...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: dapaterson on August 29, 2016, 16:01:28
Not using a bilingual keyboard here ;)

According to the CFOO with a DTG of 011200Z MAR 16,

Quote
LINGUISTIC DESIGNATION
10. HMCS MONTREAL IS DESIGNATED A BILINGUAL UNIT

See: http://vcds.mil.ca/dgsp/pubs/tools/cfoo/frame.asp?cfooId=1677-01MAR16.txt (DWAN only)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 29, 2016, 16:21:03
Could they have made a mistake and meant HMCS DONACONNA, in Montréal, the Naval Reserve Unit, which has always been the only RCN unit designated as bilingual before?

Of course, the military machine is always behind the times: When I was X.O., we covered 17 different languages at the Unit.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lumber on August 29, 2016, 16:31:08
Not using a bilingual keyboard here ;)

Alt+Num 0201. You don't need a French keyboard and frankly they are the worst thing since allowing communities to set their own speed limits!

Could they have made a mistake and meant HMCS DONACONNA, in Montréal, the Naval Reserve Unit, which has always been the only RCN unit designated as bilingual before?

Of course, the military machine is always behind the times: When I was X.O., we covered 17 different languages at the Unit.

Nope... that's her UIC...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 29, 2016, 16:34:52
Then, on behalf of DON, welcome to the club MON.

Now begins your fun of drafting all your routine orders, COTM, XOTM, any one's TM and all other internal communications in both languages, all the time. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lumber on August 29, 2016, 16:46:56
Then, on behalf of DON, welcome to the club MON.

Now begins your fun of drafting all your routine orders, COTM, XOTM, any one's TM and all other internal communications in both languages, all the time. Enjoy!

This might be the first time that I don't miss her... ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on August 30, 2016, 01:58:20
Africa: Neither hopeful nor rising

https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/177211/gf_international_1401.pdf

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on August 31, 2016, 15:49:30
Matthew Fisher indicates his read of political messaging as indicating that Canada will deploy specifically into French West Africa.  He also indicates that "Ottawa has been keen to begin that mission with French-speaking troops" but I don't know where this idea comes from, except maybe rumour mill.

As noted in the article, a deployment from 5 brigade would deprive those units of their rest cycle in managed readiness, and it would waste economies of using the units already in high readiness from 1 brigade.  There would still be plenty of Francophone soldiers deployed as, at least outside of manoeuvre arms, there are Francophone soldiers throughout the brigade units.  And our government has expended significant funds investing in French language skills for English soldiers, so we may as well seek some operational return from that investment.
Quote
Despite the potential complications, all signs point to Canada sending troops to Africa
Matthew Fisher
National Post
30 Aug 2016

Colombia and South Sudan are the long-shot options for Canada’s first major UN military operation since Jean Chrétien sent troops to East Timor 16 years ago.

A reasonable case can be made for Colombia, where the government and rebels have just signed a peace accord that may end a war that has gone on for years. But Foreign Affairs Minister Stéphane Dion and Defence Minister Harjit Singh Sajjan have made it clear the government has its heart set on a mission in French West Africa to further Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s ambition to gain a seat on the UN Security Council.

Only time will tell whether it was worthwhile in Canadian blood and treasure to deploy on an open-ended mission to Mali, the Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of Congo or other options equally fraught with danger, such as Niger or Burundi. Factored into the equation when that reckoning comes will be the true value to Canada of the UN appointment when, like the other 10 non-permanent members, it would only be admitted to the inner sanctum for two years and would be powerless to do anything there in the face of the veto powers of the five permanent members.

As it is almost certain Canada will become involved in French West Africa, Ottawa has been keen to begin that mission with French-speaking troops. This makes sense, but could seriously complicate the training and readiness regimes of the country’s three combat brigades.

Since early August, the Canadian army’s high-readiness brigade has been built around the Edmonton-based Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry. But the first force to be deployed to Africa may have to be drawn from the Quebec-based Royal 22nd Regiment, the Vandoos, some of whom returned only weeks ago from a deployment to eastern Europe.

Not much has been heard from Gen. Jonathan Vance, chief of the defence staff of the Canadian Armed Forces, about the potential perils of a mission in a region where Canadian deployments to Rwanda and Somalia have had difficulties and where the UN’s current peacemaking operations have been so rife with allegations of grave sexual misconduct, incompetence and cowardice, they can only be described as a total disaster.

Once the Canadians’ destination is revealed in September, Vance, who is a famously straight shooter, is likely to begin making it clear to the troops and the public what lies ahead.

Among the unspoken military concerns is that this is an open-ended mission and little or no help can be expected from the Americans. That may sound great to some Canadians. But if things go south, as they might, nobody except perhaps the French, who are already badly stretched by combat operations in Africa and the Middle East and in dealing with the terrorist threat at home, may have our backs.

One of the reasons Canadian forces would prefer to go to Mali may be because that is where the French have the most troops and the most robust military capability. It is also where the German and Dutch have quietly sent about 1,000 troops over the past year although those countries do not see their contributions as part of a bid for a Security Council seat.

Like the French, the Canadian military needs to be careful about becoming overstretched. As African operations involving about 600 ramp up, it must also sustain about 800 troops in Kuwait and the Kurdish part of Iraq. It will soon send about 450 combat troops on a new NATO mission to Latvia to to try to contain Russia’s irredentist impulses on its western borders.

With only five C-17 heavy-lift aircraft and oceans between these disparate missions and Canada, getting the logistics right will be job No. 1.  Much of the planning will fall to Maj.-Gen. Chuck Lamarre.

The logistician responsible for the massive undertaking of bringing all Canada’s equipment back from Kandahar, he is now Vance’s director of staff and his  right arm on operations.

Given that the Trudeau government intends to keep Canadian Forces in Africa for many years and that those troops will require scores of heavy armoured personnel carriers, weapons, a field hospital and helicopters, something to look for soon may be an announcement Canada intends to establish a regional logistics hub, most likely in the Senegalese port of Dakar. It would be something akin to the ones that already exist in Kuwait and Cologne.

Identifying personnel and assembling the tens of thousands of nuts and bolts required to deploy to a part of the world where infrastructure is almost totally lacking will take time and patience. That will give Canadians the opportunity to ponder whether the African mission is an altruistic endeavour to do good in a deeply troubled part of the world or a grand bid to enhance Canada’s chances of winning the Security Council seat.


http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/matthew-fisher-despite-the-potentical-complications-all-signs-point-to-canada-sending-troops-to-africa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 31, 2016, 16:00:55
As noted in the article, a deployment from 5 brigade would deprive those units of their rest cycle in managed readiness, and it would waste economies of using the units already in high readiness from 1 brigade.  There would still be plenty of Francophone soldiers deployed as, at least outside of manoeuvre arms, there are Francophone soldiers throughout the brigade units.  And our government has expended significant funds investing in French language skills for English soldiers, so we may as well seek some operational return from that investment.
Again, common sense.  But the reality is, no government (Lib or CPC) knows or cares about our managed readiness cycle;  notwithstanding any assumed CDS advice it's nothing more than a photo op,  a poker chip for a UN bid, and a "Canada's Back" election slogan.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Spectrum on August 31, 2016, 16:15:34
I love how the emphasis placed on the importance of winning the security council seat instead of bringing stability and peace to the region.

I really don't see what we are going to accomplish in Africa. However, I could get behind it if we were actually going after the bad guys and stabilizing the region. I don't see us actually doing anything of that nature.

As leaders, how do you all rationalize the potential casualties you will suffer in a mission like this? Is it even possible to confidently lead your people when you have no confidence in your assigned mission itself? Or those that assigned you the mission?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on August 31, 2016, 16:21:59
Thinking out loud, 600 is not a very large number of troops to be able to do anything very military that might actually involve confronting bad guys. There has been lots of talk/speculation about nation building and civil involvement and humanitarian work, but that may just be wishful thinking about the "good old days" of peacekeeping. Surely somebody hasn't hauled out the concept of three block war that was all in the vogue circa 2005.

What have I missed?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lumber on August 31, 2016, 16:39:48
Thinking out loud, 600 is not a very large number of troops to be able to do anything very military that might actually involve confronting bad guys. There has been lots of talk/speculation about nation building and civil involvement and humanitarian work, but that may just be wishful thinking about the "good old days" of peacekeeping. Surely somebody hasn't hauled out the concept of three block war that was all in the vogue circa 2005.

What have I missed?

Those of you with far more deployment and army experience than I:

With 600 troops, how many of those would be available to go out on patrol and conduct combat operations, after factoring all the support trades that are likely to go with?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on August 31, 2016, 16:50:30
Maybe our focus will be on introducing gender-neutral washrooms and convincing them not to wear offensive Chicago Blackhawk jerseys.    :dunno:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lumber on August 31, 2016, 16:59:35
Maybe our focus will be on introducing gender-neutral washrooms and convincing them not to wear offensive Chicago Blackhawk jerseys.    :dunno:

I love it when two threads come together.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXS5LK.gif%3Fnoredirect&hash=8dcdb2951c7e7015ad0b9e637bffd81b)

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on August 31, 2016, 17:08:27
With 600 troops, how many of those would be available to go out on patrol and conduct combat operations, after factoring all the support trades that are likely to go with?   
I have heard speculation (ie. one step lower than even rumour) that our contribution to peace support might be "force support" (the logistics, medical, engineering and training support to third world UN troops) and C2.  If there is any substance to this speculation, there will not be substantial Canadian numbers to conduct combat operations  ... but we will still have to be Canadian infantry and armour for Canadian force protection.

Maybe our focus will be on introducing gender-neutral washrooms and convincing them not to wear offensive Chicago Blackhawk jerseys.    :dunno: 
http://www.swc-cfc.gc.ca/gba-acs/course-cours-en.html
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lumber on August 31, 2016, 17:13:54
http://www.swc-cfc.gc.ca/gba-acs/course-cours-en.html

Woohoo! PER points in PD!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 31, 2016, 18:38:14
Those of you with far more deployment and army experience than I:

With 600 troops, how many of those would be available to go out on patrol and conduct combat operations, after factoring all the support trades that are likely to go with?

I think MCG nailed it.

I can see less "combat operations" and more highly visual, touchy feely tasks which make for great photo-ops. (not the "touchy feely" stuff the UN is known for mind you).
I suspect the PAFOs will be run ragged.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ballz on August 31, 2016, 18:57:34
Again, common sense.  But the reality is, no government (Lib or CPC) knows or cares about our managed readiness cycle;  notwithstanding any assumed CDS advice it's nothing more than a photo op,  a poker chip for a UN bid, and a "Canada's Back" election slogan.

The managed readiness plan has been nothing but a burn-out for all those who have to be a part of it, and with no level of actual operational readiness to show for it. When you combine tasks like NEO, IRU, etc, 2 RCR came back from Op ATTENTION in December 2012 and I have essentially been on high-readiness, or on the road to high-readiness since July 1st 2013 and I am not an anomaly by any stretch of the imagination.

I blame the fact that they insist on having a Brigade on high readiness, so its a 3-year cycle instead of a 9-year cycle to keep a Battle Group at high-readiness (something that is actually realistic and could actually be manned).

My years since arriving at 2 RCR in Dec 2012 have been... July 2013 Road to High-readiness, July 2014 on high-readiness (TF 1-14) while simultaneously doing high-readiness training for NEO, July 2015 on high-readiness for NEO, and now July 2016 Road to High-readiness for TF 1-17 which will take me to July 2018. 5 full years of a death-con 10 op tempo. Thanks for working a rest cycle into the "managed" readiness program, Canadian Army!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 31, 2016, 19:07:50
Matthew Fisher indicates his read of political messaging as indicating that Canada will deploy specifically into French West Africa.  He also indicates that "Ottawa has been keen to begin that mission with French-speaking troops" but I don't know where this idea comes from, except maybe rumour mill.

As noted in the article, a deployment from 5 brigade would deprive those units of their rest cycle in managed readiness, and it would waste economies of using the units already in high readiness from 1 brigade.  There would still be plenty of Francophone soldiers deployed as, at least outside of manoeuvre arms, there are Francophone soldiers throughout the brigade units.  And our government has expended significant funds investing in French language skills for English soldiers, so we may as well seek some operational return from that investment.http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/matthew-fisher-despite-the-potentical-complications-all-signs-point-to-canada-sending-troops-to-africa


From Matthew Fishers article quoted:
Quote
Given that the Trudeau government intends to keep Canadian Forces in Africa for many years and that those troops will require scores of heavy armoured personnel carriers, weapons, a field hospital and helicopters, something to look for soon may be an announcement Canada intends to establish a regional logistics hub, most likely in the Senegalese port of Dakar. It would be something akin to the ones that already exist in Kuwait and Cologne.

Operational Support Hubs (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/news/article.page?doc=canadian-forces-operational-support-hubs/hgq87xxj)

Quote
Canadian imperialism extends its reach around the globe

In addition to the base in Kuwait, the Department of National Defense announced at the beginning of June that the CAF has already reached agreements to open military bases in Germany and Jamaica. The CAF has also indicated its interest in pursuing bases in Senegal (ie Dakar) in West Africa, Kenya (ie Mombasa) or Tanzania in East Africa, South Korea (ie Busan), and Singapore.

Situated in countries of critical geo-strategic importance, the “Support Hubs” will serve as “trampolines” for deploying troops and material in future CAF missions.
In confirming the CAF’s intention to set in place the Support Hub Network, Lieutenant John Nethercott underscored that Canada’s military is seeking to develop the capacity to rapidly intervene around the world. The CAF, he said, “doesn’t have a crystal ball” as to where it will be called upon to take action.

Accordingly, the CAF plans to locate military bases at geo-political flashpoints and areas of importance for Canadian imperialism

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2011/07/cana-j14.html

Evil Harper imperialism or Sunny UN support net?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Technoviking on August 31, 2016, 19:18:22
Quote
I recommend it for those who wish to understand further how gender and diversity must be considered in every facet of the work we do.


Meanwhile, in Russia, the infantry division that did this:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/14/Reichstag_flag_original.jpg)
.


The 150th Infantry Division (Destroyed in 1941, reformed and destroyed in 1942 and finally reformed in 1943 and fought across into Berlin, hoisting the USSR banner in the picture above before being disbanded in 1946) has been reformed in 2016 (http://www.newsweek.com/appeasing-putin-wont-work-ukraine-492881) in the Donbas region of Russia. 



Why is that important?  From an article here (https://www.yahoo.com/news/don-t-look-now-russia-193617036.html):

Quote
The unit will materialize in late 2017 and resume the legacy of the 150th Idritsk-Berlin Division from World War II. That bit of historical trivia is not inconsequential, because it was the 150th that raised the flag over the Reichstag in 1945. The symbolism of establishing such a unit with such a prominent legacy of defeating fascism on Ukraine’s flank is doubtfully a coincidence.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on August 31, 2016, 19:23:39
"Out of Africa, always something new'

Pliny the Elder
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on August 31, 2016, 20:01:21

Meanwhile, in Russia, the infantry division that did this:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/14/Reichstag_flag_original.jpg)
.


The 150th Infantry Division (Destroyed in 1941, reformed and destroyed in 1942 and finally reformed in 1943 and fought across into Berlin, hoisting the USSR banner in the picture above before being disbanded in 1946) has been reformed in 2016 (http://www.newsweek.com/appeasing-putin-wont-work-ukraine-492881) in the Donbas region of Russia. 



Why is that important?  From an article here (https://www.yahoo.com/news/don-t-look-now-russia-193617036.html):
So it's due to be destroyed twice more eh?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Technoviking on August 31, 2016, 20:24:54
So it's due to be destroyed twice more eh?
By whom? Us*? Not bloody likely.

*Us=The West.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eland2 on August 31, 2016, 21:07:53
Those of you with far more deployment and army experience than I:

With 600 troops, how many of those would be available to go out on patrol and conduct combat operations, after factoring all the support trades that are likely to go with?

It's been a long time since I've been in as a reservist, but making a very wild-***, non-professional guess based on the tooth-to-tail ratio that seems to exist now, I would daresay we wouldn't be able to deploy more than a company-sized formation for anything resembling combat operations. Two companies might be a stretch, or somewhat feasible, depending on operational taskings and tempo.

Even then, such numbers are too few to permit full-scale combat operations. A force that size could probably handle force protection, with limited numbers hived off to conduct site recces and route-proving patrols if the main body needs to move to a different location.

One problem is that the proposed deployment is intended to conduct some sort of peacekeeping operation in Africa. That is, in an environment where a Rwanda-type situation could erupt with little to no warning, and where trying to conduct combat operations while vastly outnumbered by either side of the conflict could result in large numbers of casualties and inability to meet your objectives.

When conducting peacekeeping operations with limited numbers and resources, your aim is not to make the peace, but to de-escalate situations wherever and whenever possible, and shoot back only when you have absolutely no other options.


Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on August 31, 2016, 21:24:26
It's been a long time since I've been in as a reservist, but making a very wild-***, non-professional guess based on the tooth-to-tail ratio that seems to exist now, I would daresay we wouldn't be able to deploy more than a company-sized formation for anything resembling combat operations. Two companies might be a stretch, or somewhat feasible, depending on operational taskings and tempo.

Even then, such numbers are too few to permit full-scale combat operations. A force that size could probably handle force protection, with limited numbers hived off to conduct site recces and route-proving patrols if the main body needs to move to a different location.

One problem is that the proposed deployment is intended to conduct some sort of peacekeeping operation in Africa. That is, in an environment where a Rwanda-type situation could erupt with little to no warning, and where trying to conduct combat operations while vastly outnumbered by either side of the conflict could result in large numbers of casualties and inability to meet your objectives.

When conducting peacekeeping operations with limited numbers and resources, your aim is not to make the peace, but to de-escalate situations wherever and whenever possible, and shoot back only when you have absolutely no other options.

I'm sure we have enough people to participate in this although, it's clear, our vehicles and communications will be outclassed:

The Dakar Rally (or simply "The Dakar"; formerly known as the "Paris–Dakar Rally") is an annual rally raid organised by the Amaury Sport Organisation. Most events since the inception in 1978 were from Paris, France, to Dakar, Senegal, but due to security threats in Mauritania, which led to the cancellation of the 2008 rally, races since 2009 have been held in South America.[1][2][3] The race is open to amateur and professional entries, amateurs typically making up about eighty percent of the participants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakar_Rally

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on August 31, 2016, 21:26:49
Seems a multi-department recce has been launched to Mali.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-sends-fact-finding-mission-to-mali-to-study-peacekeeping-operations/article31641823/
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 31, 2016, 21:51:19
Funny to a reprobate like me.  Timbuktu used to be used as a synonym for the back of beyond, or the arse end of the universe.  Timbuktu is in Mali and it is 1600 km by air from Dakar.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: dapaterson on August 31, 2016, 22:02:49
Funny to a reprobate like me.  Timbuktu used to be used as a synonym for the back of beyond, or the arse end of the universe.  Timbuktu is in Mali and it is 1600 km by air from Dakar.

Sort of like driving from Battleford SK to Thunder Bay ON.  In several ways...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: GK .Dundas on August 31, 2016, 23:01:35
Sort of like driving from Battleford SK to Thunder Bay ON.  In several ways...
Only if you take the Yellowhead Route.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on August 31, 2016, 23:02:40
True enough DAP.  Except that I have a son currently in Thunder Bay and I understand there is a decent baker in town. 

In other words: I have a reason to make the trip.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: dapaterson on August 31, 2016, 23:11:50
But why are you in Battleford?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: whiskey601 on August 31, 2016, 23:28:31
Seems a multi-department recce has been launched to Mali.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-sends-fact-finding-mission-to-mali-to-study-peacekeeping-operations/article31641823/

"....Those dangers may cause some Canadians to shy away from Mali."

You know, if the people of Canada really are the pussies and wimps that the media makes them out to be, that should by no means influence or reflect upon the determination of the armed forces to do whatever job the government orders them to do, and smartly with 3 bags full. While I continue to question the need to engage with any peace support missions whatsoever with the UN in Africa, because frankly the place is of no relevance to the problems we have at home and on our northern borders, I refuse to accept by any measure that the armed forces should be afraid, just because the Grey Goose is. As a citizen, I am willing to allow the government to expend and sacrifice as much of the shirking HQ bloat as they possibly can on these particular endeavours, and I expect them to go bravely and without question. In fact, I wish Trudeau was demanding that Canada be tasked with "commanding" as many of these missions as possible, and strike to metal all the meaningless gongs that will go to them.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: whiskey601 on August 31, 2016, 23:37:07
Thinking out loud, 600 is not a very large number of troops to be able to do anything very military that might actually involve confronting bad guys. There has been lots of talk/speculation about nation building and civil involvement and humanitarian work, but that may just be wishful thinking about the "good old days" of peacekeeping. Surely somebody hasn't hauled out the concept of three block war that was all in the vogue circa 2005.

What have I missed?

Hal Moore started out with less than 600 at Ia Drang...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on August 31, 2016, 23:39:16
In fact, I wish Trudeau was demanding that Canada be tasked with "commanding" as many of these missions as possible, and strike to metal all the meaningless gongs that will go to them.

If it's a UN mission, then it'd just be one of the UN Medals already authorized, no?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Medal

Side note:  There's a medal for working at UNHQ New York.  Imagine the "war stories" from there.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 01, 2016, 00:35:24
But why are you in Battleford?

Passing through.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 01, 2016, 01:35:55
Hal Moore started out with less than 600 at Ia Drang...

With the rest of the Brigade on call, as well as the divisional artillery, and a 'weapons free' ROE.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 01, 2016, 01:56:46
With the rest of the Brigade on call, as well as the divisional artillery, and a 'weapons free' ROE.

And don't forget "Broken Arrow"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctnK7wdJmAo
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on September 01, 2016, 11:42:03
...and Sam Elliott as his Sergeant-Major.   :nod:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Halifax Tar on September 01, 2016, 12:44:55
And a gun toting civi photographer ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: whiskey601 on September 01, 2016, 14:15:35
With the rest of the Brigade on call, as well as the divisional artillery, and a 'weapons free' ROE.

And did they ever come in handy, which is a good point. Moore ran into a force that they thought would be H-15 Viet Cong, instead it was a very large NVA formation + VC support. What are the chances of of a UN force finding itself dealing with an overwhelming force?     
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Ostrozac on September 01, 2016, 14:23:19
What are the chances of of a UN force finding itself dealing with an overwhelming force?   

It happens pretty routinely. The Sinai, Cyprus, Kashmir, Srebrenica, Krajina, Rwanda, Lebanon, etc...

The UN's usual response is to hunker down and wait till it all ends. That sometimes works out badly for the troops caught in front of an overwhelming force.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: quadrapiper on September 01, 2016, 14:52:19
I sure hope you're not a Navigator;  if the RCN is patrolling CAR or Mali, something has gone horribly wrong.   ;D
Definitely not a Navigator; had something like operations on the opposite coast of the continent, and those in the Gulf, in mind.

On that note, is there a coastal set of problems in that area to match the inland ones?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on September 01, 2016, 14:58:43
On that note, is there a coastal set of problems in that area to match the inland ones?
Piracy and smuggling (drugs and humans) are popular hobbies throughout Africa's flanking waters.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 01, 2016, 17:39:05
Used to be a handy little organization known as the West Africa Squadron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa_Squadron

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on September 01, 2016, 17:43:52
If we go to Mali in force, a wheeled SPG mounting 120mm mortars or 105mm howitzer would be very useful.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on September 01, 2016, 18:14:03
While there are references upthread to the battle of Ia Drang, people should remember that in 1954, GM-100, a French mechanized Regimental Combat Team was destroyed in an ambush near where the Americans had their action. And it should be noted that after Hal Moore's unit left, the 2nd Battalion, 7th Cavalry (1st Battalion's sister unit) was ambushed and took heavy casualties on their approach to LZ Albany.

The size and power of the force really isn't at issue, rather the nature of force's orders and the nature of the enemy they are fighting matters.

Canadian troops may find themselves in grave danger regardless of wether they send a lightly armed "peacekeeping" unit or a mechanized battlegroup with tanks and artillery if the mission parameters are unclear or the task they are given is unsuitable for the unit deployed.

Sadly for Collin P, the adoption of wheeled SP or 120mm mortars would only be considered (as an urgent requirement ) after the unit was overrun or nearly overrun in action, and given the way things work, they would probably be considered surplus and abandoned or given away after the "peacekeepers" came home to Canada.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on September 01, 2016, 20:13:05
While there are references upthread to the battle of Ia Drang, people should remember that in 1954, GM-100, a French mechanized Regimental Combat Team was destroyed in an ambush near where the Americans had their action. And it should be noted that after Hal Moore's unit left, the 2nd Battalion, 7th Cavalry (1st Battalion's sister unit) was ambushed and took heavy casualties on their approach to LZ Albany.


The movie really should have shown the second half of the book - 2/7th really got hammered.  IIRC, they walked into an NVA regimental sized U shaped ambush...this was pretty much a light infantry vs light infantry battle, very much what could happen in Mali or elsewhere.  If the bad guys show up with something even resembling armour, Houston will be hearing about some problems, as long as it's during working hours in New York ::)...one of the reasons we had TUA deployed with us in Croatia and Bosnia in the 90's, since if the hordes came across, the 8xRAP rounds for the Carl G's weren't going to last long...nor the 6x60mmWP rounds...nor the 2 boxes of 0.50 cal...or 7.62mm...or the 300 odd rounds we had each of 5.56mm (speaking for me anyway).  This is all tongue in cheek of course, since our ROE's wouldn't likely have let us engage directly unless we were shot at first...and then after fair warning back.  I found it interesting that that Danes brought Leo's to Bosnia when they were blue helmeted, but we apparently couldn't as they might scare someone...

You're right of course, we'll likely get something we need after a "HOLY SH!T" S.I.R. gets sent in...and we'll get rid of it just as fast when it isn't apparently needed anymore.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on September 01, 2016, 20:19:51

Sadly for Collin P, the adoption of wheeled SP or 120mm mortars would only be considered (as an urgent requirement ) after the unit was overrun or nearly overrun in action, and given the way things work, they would probably be considered surplus and abandoned or given away after the "peacekeepers" came home to Canada.

The artillery intent for the reserve for years has been to replace the 105mm howitzers with 120mm mortars, if, had honourary colonels and parliamentary openings not gotten in the way, would have provided significant capability right now for a mission like this.

the other thing to remember about "overwhelming force" is that it doesn't need to be an armoured division.... it could simply be 1 x Hind helicopter operated by rebels. One of those would easily eliminate a Canadian combat team. A GBAD capability would be helpful in this theatre as well.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 01, 2016, 20:25:41
We'll need the .50Cal back

And what about bringing the RG31s back?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 01, 2016, 23:01:41
We'll need the .50Cal back

And what about bringing the RG31s back?

I'd be happy to be a consultant on the .50
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on September 02, 2016, 08:06:22
The artillery intent for the reserve for years has been to replace the 105mm howitzers with 120mm mortars, if, had honourary colonels and parliamentary openings not gotten in the way, would have provided significant capability right now for a mission like this.

the other thing to remember about "overwhelming force" is that it doesn't need to be an armoured division.... it could simply be 1 x Hind helicopter operated by rebels. One of those would easily eliminate a Canadian combat team. A GBAD capability would be helpful in this theatre as well.

Worked in T and E as a #1 on the 120 Mortar Project in 1986, we had a few versions of RO-120 by Hotchkiss if I recall correctly, it was French anyway, towed by the muzzle.  We used for 4 tubes and competed against 4 pack 105mm.  We were faster in battery and out, better fire, longer range.  We experimented with mounted versions in a German M113 and towed versions behind a 5/4, MUTT jeep (one for tube, one for ammo), and M113 with fitted ammo racks.  After almost a year, everything was summed up and turned in to base supply.  Beautiful weapon!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on September 02, 2016, 11:12:42
Solving the reserve arty issue would be easy if the will was there, I suspect we could totally re-equip with 105's again from the reserve stock in SK or have 120mm mortars and 105mm saluting batteries.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on September 02, 2016, 12:27:57
Solving the reserve arty issue would be easy if the will was there, I suspect we could totally re-equip with 105's again from the reserve stock in SK or have 120mm mortars and 105mm saluting batteries.

A mobile 120mm capability would be great for a mission such as Africa where manoeuvre and firepower will be essential (assuming at least). It will be interesting to see if any arty capability would be deployed with the UN force (600 pers isn't much after all) as it would also necessitate us sending our own FOO parties (as third world FOO's are unlikely to be able to do a proper call for fire and we are unlikely to accept CFF from another nation).

Honestly, I would see any arty contribution being limited to STA and GBAD (if we had some) in a shield capacity. IMHO, the M777's are likely to sit this one out, though we will see.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on September 02, 2016, 12:51:16
A mobile 120mm capability would be great for a mission such as Africa where manoeuvre and firepower will be essential (assuming at least). It will be interesting to see if any arty capability would be deployed with the UN force (600 pers isn't much after all) as it would also necessitate us sending our own FOO parties (as third world FOO's are unlikely to be able to do a proper call for fire and we are unlikely to accept CFF from another nation).

Honestly, I would see any arty contribution being limited to STA and GBAD (if we had some) in a shield capacity. IMHO, the M777's are likely to sit this one out, though we will see.

I tend to agree with you, especially given the limited size. I could see a FSCC/ASCC deployed along with two or three FOO/FAC parties, perhaps a mortar group or troop and a UAV element and perhaps some other STA kit. That eats up a fair amount of spaces, however, and maybe our political masters will want a more passive posture.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: GK .Dundas on September 02, 2016, 12:59:59
I tend to agree with you, especially given the limited size. I could see a FSCC/ASCC deployed along with two or three FOO/FAC parties, perhaps a mortar group or troop and a UAV element and perhaps some other STA kit. That eats up a fair amount of spaces, however, and maybe our political masters will want a more passive posture.
I'm quite certain our political leadership want a passive role .That however is not up to them ,rather the other guy. 
 Whom ever that may be depending where we end up.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on September 02, 2016, 13:45:49
Passive = force pro only. I'm willing to bet it'll be some helicopters, some medics, some engineers, and a crapload of officers as "advisors".
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on September 02, 2016, 15:42:01
The international development minister seems to add weight to speculation that we will be in Mali.

It also appears our decision may be aimed influence in la Francophonie in addition to the UN.
Quote
International development minister says Mali's peacekeeping needs are 'obvious'
Melanie Marquis, The Canadian Press
CTV News
02 Sep 2016

OTTAWA -- While many countries have asked Canada for help with peacekeeping, International Development Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau said Thursday that Mali's needs are some of the most obvious.

Mali is one of the poorest and most vulnerable and fragile countries on the planet, Bibeau said in an interview with The Canadian Press from the country's capital, Bamako.

Bibeau will wrap up her first official trip to Africa on Friday, having visited three francophone countries on the continent's west side: Senegal, Mali and Burkina Faso.

 All three were once considered oases of stability on a continent rocked with conflict, yet all have suffered recently from terrorist threats they can't control.

"Unfortunately, (these countries) don't have sufficient resources to face this threat," Bibeau said.

Mali is often cited as one of the countries where Canada could deploy some of the 600 troops Prime Minister Justin Trudeau recently said he will make available for UN peacekeeping operations.

Additionally, the federal government announced Wednesday it was sending a "reconnaissance mission" to take a closer look at the UN peacekeeping operations in Mali, known as MINUSMA.

Bibeau cautioned the "technical" mission shouldn't be seen as a sign Canada is committed to sending peacekeepers to any particular country.

"There are really a large number of countries that unfortunately are on the list of states that have asked us for help through the UN," she said. But she added "the needs are obvious" regarding Mali.

The current UN mission in Mali is one of the most dangerous in the world, with 105 peacekeepers killed there since 2013.

Bibeau said the Liberal government will announce an overall strategy on international development when it attends la Francophonie, the summit of French-speaking nations, in Madagascar in late November.
 
http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/international-development-minister-says-mali-s-peacekeeping-needs-are-obvious-1.3055488

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Brihard on September 02, 2016, 16:10:19
I'm curious if the police side of it will look more like CIVPOL doing actual operational policing, or if it'll be morebehind the wire POMLT type stuff...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Castus on September 02, 2016, 16:53:53
Here's to hoping that we're actually roped into Op Barkhane (the French TF in Africa).

About a snowball's chance, I know.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Sprinting Thistle on September 02, 2016, 20:49:56
The MINUSMA Force Commander should be coming up for rotation early next year.  It would be convenient if Canada had a spare Maj Gen looking for work.  The Dutch also announced in July that they are withdrawing their three chinooks from Mali.  No TCN has offered up to replace them at this point.   :2c:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on September 02, 2016, 20:52:55
Speculation also related to their Apaches, also being withdrawn.  It's thought that Canads could contribute chinooks and armed griffons.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ballz on September 02, 2016, 21:03:16
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-3771443/Central-Mali-town-falls-suspected-jihadists-officials.html

Quote
Central Mali town falls to jihadists: officials

The central Malian town of Boni was under jihadist control on Friday after administrative buildings were attacked and the army driven out, an elected official and a security source told AFP.

Boni is home to several thousand people and remained under the control of the unidentified armed group by nightfall, who fired on administrative buildings and torched the mayor's office in the afternoon.

"At the moment jihadists are in control of the town of Boni. They infiltrated the town and today fired on several buildings," an elected official who requested anonymity said, adding: "the army is no longer there."

At the moment jihadists are in control of the town of Boni in Mali

Ongoing international military intervention since January 2013 has driven Islamist fighters away from major urban centres which they had briefly controlled, but large tracts of Mali are still not controlled by domestic or foreign troops.

Jihadist groups early last year began to carry out attacks in central Mali as well as the long-troubled north.

"We asked our forces present in Boni to withdraw to the locality of Douentza, which has been done," a military source told AFP, also asking not to be named as the Malian army has refused to comment on the incident.

Douentza is around 90 kilometres (56 miles) from Boni.

Residents reached by phone described men entering the town riding motorbikes and carrying weapons, shouting "Allahu Akbar" during the attack and flying several jihadist flags.

"They set fire to the police chief's house, as well as the mayor's office. They kept firing in the air," the resident said.

"I saw the army leave the town," he added. "Some jihadists were on motorbikes and had accomplices inside the town. It was planned."

Lawmakers in Mali agreed to extend a state of emergency across the country in July, after attackers stormed an army base in Nampala, also in the centre, leaving 17 soldiers dead and 35 wounded.

Two groups -- the Islamist organisation Ansar Dine and a newly formed ethnic group -- claimed to have carried out that raid, which the government described as a "coordinated terrorist attack".

Attacks have become more frequent near Mali's borders with Burkina Faso and Niger, both from criminal and jihadist elements.

Long prey to rival armed factions, plagued by drug trafficking and at the mercy of jihadism, Mali has struggled for stability since gaining independence from France in 1960.

Yup, blue helmets seems real appropriate...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 02, 2016, 21:08:04
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-3771443/Central-Mali-town-falls-suspected-jihadists-officials.html

Yup, blue helmets seems real appropriate...
Why not? Couldn't a well trained force deal with some men on motorcycles?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ballz on September 02, 2016, 21:45:42
Why not? Couldn't a well trained force deal with some men on motorcycles?

I thought the blue helmets reference clearly implied that the comment was meant to criticize the idea of it being a "peacekeeping" or even "peacemaking" mission. But I guess not clearly enough...

If we're going to get involved in this, we should be closing with and destroying, actively disrupting EN operations... not bumbling around like idiots with blue helmets waiting to get blown or brewed up. I suspect the latter part will happen first, and then maybe if we're lucky, the former part will follow after much bureaucratic bullshit by men in suits that aren't worth the silk in their tie.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on September 02, 2016, 22:18:12
Why not? Couldn't a well trained force deal with some men on motorcycles?

You obviously have not been paying attention to the conversation. Yes, a well trained force could deal with this sort of threat, much like SFOR or ISAF dealt with issues like this in former Yugoslavia and Afghanistan. These were not UN peacekeeping missions, nor were they under the command or control of the UN. These were NATO missions with a UN "mandate" to provide a fig leaf for the politicians to wave in front of the voters, press, academics and the chattering class.

UN "Peacekeeping missions" have mandates and ROEs which generally don't reflect reality, and we end up with cluster****s like UNPROFOR, which did not have the mandate, ROE's or even generally equipment to deal with "some men on motorcycles".

If it makes Gerrald Butts feel like a big man to claim the mission is "peacekeeping", I'd be OK is it is actually an SFOR/ISAF type mission and we don't wear blue aiming markers. Sadly, there is no indication that this sort of reality has penetrated, they still have not stated any actual reason to join this, or any mission, how it supports Canada's Grand Strategy or National Interest or why it is going to be worth the blood of our colleagues and taxpayers treasure to do. Yes, I understand that there are people who are very enthusiastic about deployment, but if your life is going to be placed on the line it should be for something meaningful.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on September 02, 2016, 22:35:19
France also only has 30 troops assigned to MINUSMA. Op BARKHANE is outside the UN Peacekeeping mandate. If we deploy to help them, we're not wearing blue berets like the Liberals want, ergo we're not deploying to do counter insurgency with the French.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 03, 2016, 01:30:36
Yes, I understand that there are people who are very enthusiastic about deployment, but if your life is going to be placed on the line it should be for something meaningful.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on September 03, 2016, 02:47:09
UN "Peacekeeping missions" have  had mandates and ROEs which generally don't did not reflect reality ...
Fixed that for you.  Things have changed.  You can see the government understands this as they have stopped using the term "peacekeeping."  You know the MND understands what such a mission needs to look like on the ground , and I hope you trust the CDS to advise on the capabilities, force package and ROE requirements.

... if your life is going to be placed on the line it should be for something meaningful.
It was sold to (and bought by many) Canadian voters as being for altruism.  You can debate if this is adequately meaningful, but it is a meaning that we have attached a great many missions.  We are going to go somewhere, and when we get there we are going to make life better for a lot of people.  Recycle all the media lines about making Afghanistan a better place ... and they will be equally true when we say them about wherever is next. 

Gerrald Butts
You over use this boogeyman.  His name is not a mike-drop, and he really does not deserve mention outside the politics thread.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on September 03, 2016, 10:16:41
PSO is the new terminology and the MND was untraditionally clear on there being potential harm and some element of combat-like engagement if required, so even if Blue helmets are traipsed onto a C-17 leaving Trenton for the media, it would still allow for 'value-added activity' on the ground.  CH-147/146 package wouldn't be a bad thing either...worked pretty well supporting ops from K-har to the tip of the Horn and beyond.  :nod:

Regards,
G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 03, 2016, 11:00:33
Fixed that for you.  Things have changed.  You can see the government understands this as they have stopped using the term "peacekeeping."  You know the MND understands what such a mission needs to look like on the ground , and I hope you trust the CDS to advise on the capabilities, force package and ROE requirements.
It was sold to (and bought by many) Canadian voters as being for altruism.  You can debate if this is adequately meaningful, but it is a meaning that we have attached a great many missions.  We are going to go somewhere, and when we get there we are going to make life better for a lot of people.  Recycle all the media lines about making Afghanistan a better place ... and they will be equally true when we say them about wherever is next. 
You over use this boogeyman.  His name is not a mike-drop, and he really does not deserve mention outside the politics thread.
thank you. Sounds better when you say it.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 03, 2016, 11:04:23
Dutch also withdrawing Apaches (replace with armed Griffons?)--from July:

Quote
Canadian UN Peacekeeping in Mali? RCAF Helicopters?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/07/26/mark-collins-canadian-un-peacekeeping-in-mali-rcaf-helicopters/

Mark
Ottawa

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 03, 2016, 15:18:54
I like the Fireforce orbat, personally, for doing the business in an African context.

A nice little package based on an infantry platoon/ company with helicopter gunship and cargo carrying support, as well as a para assault capability. Ground support QRF was also available as required through armoured cars/ APCs etc. Flexible, fast, fairly cheap, able to cover a large geographical area, and a great overall deterrent, or emergency response set up, with a nice 'sting' if required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireforce

From what I can determine, the FFL used a similar setup when they banjoed the bad guys in Mali a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 04, 2016, 10:20:13
Fixed that for you.  Things have changed.  You can see the government understands this as they have stopped using the term "peacekeeping."

The government has stopped using the word peacekeeping?  http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,123590.msg1452896.html#msg1452896

  8)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 04, 2016, 10:44:46
The government has stopped using the word peacekeeping?  http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,123590.msg1452896.html#msg1452896

  8)
<contentcountgeek>
Not quite stopped, but using it faaaaar less frequently via the Info-machine - only once in the big 26 Aug ann't (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?mthd=advSrch&crtr.mnthndVl=&crtr.mnthStrtVl=&crtr.page=1&nid=1117209&crtr.yrndVl=&crtr.kw=peacekeeping&crtr.yrStrtVl=&crtr.dyStrtVl=&crtr.dyndVl=), and twice in the assoicated Backgrounder (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?mthd=advSrch&crtr.mnthndVl=&crtr.mnthStrtVl=&crtr.page=1&nid=1117199&crtr.yrndVl=&crtr.kw=peacekeeping&crtr.yrStrtVl=&crtr.dyStrtVl=&crtr.dyndVl=) -- or three mentions out of about 1,700 words of content.  That's compared to 49 mentions of "peace" in the same 1,700 words.
</contentcountgeek>
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 04, 2016, 21:45:10
I'm kinda looking forward to getting told I'll be charged and sent home if I spray paint any vehicles (or wear unauthorized patches) if we deploy  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on September 05, 2016, 23:31:06
Now this is something we could do and help us increase our own capabilities http://aviationweek.com/defense/unmanned-peacekeepers-africa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 06, 2016, 02:04:19
I'm kinda looking forward to getting told I'll be charged and sent home if I spray paint any vehicles (or wear unauthorized patches) if we deploy  ;D

You're making some RSMs head explode.....fortunately not mine.  [:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on September 06, 2016, 08:05:06
You're making some RSMs head explode.....fortunately not mine.  [:D

Do we have an authorized patch thread?  Since coming back as a civie, I am noticing a lot of bling on the sleeves of the new combat shirt.  Mostly in the field but I am starting to see pretty coloured formation patches in the hard stand. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: dangerboy on September 06, 2016, 09:28:42
Do we have an authorized patch thread?  Since coming back as a civie, I am noticing a lot of bling on the sleeves of the new combat shirt.  Mostly in the field but I am starting to see pretty coloured formation patches in the hard stand.

All brigade commanders and up (along with their RSMs) are wearing formation patches to "promote" the upcoming decision for all troops to wear formation patches.  The idea is that it will help instill esprit de corps within the soldiers  ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on September 06, 2016, 09:59:11
All brigade commanders and up (along with their RSMs) are wearing formation patches to "promote" the upcoming decision for all troops to wear formation patches.  The idea is that it will help instill esprit de corps within the soldiers  ::)

Funny.  Us old Recce guys used to have quite a bit of esprit de corps by camming up and removing all patches and rank.  Times have changed.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Rider Pride on September 06, 2016, 10:20:22
Now this is something we could do and help us increase our own capabilities http://aviationweek.com/defense/unmanned-peacekeepers-africa

UAV use in the Sahel would be an asset given the region is mostly flat, sparsely covered and with predictable, often clear and windy, weather conducive to flying operations.

Blue berets not carrying rifles, but flying unarmed UAVs and providing medical support would fit the current government's utopian ideals.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on September 06, 2016, 11:12:52
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-3771443/Central-Mali-town-falls-suspected-jihadists-officials.html

Yup, blue helmets seems real appropriate...

Looking at Googlemaps, one small town off the main highway, but quite a few towns in the area, would be a hard place to police without a lot of local support.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 06, 2016, 11:18:36
Why not? Couldn't a well trained force deal with some men on motorcycles?

You mean, like the Taliban?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on September 06, 2016, 11:51:12
You mean, like the Taliban?

Blue helmets are never a correct response to an insurgency unless said insurgents have decided to lay down arms.  Blue helmets in an active insurgency are just another source of arms and fodder. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 06, 2016, 12:58:37
You mean, like the Taliban?

We could hire the Taliban to provide security in Africa.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 06, 2016, 13:21:25
We could hire the Taliban to provide security in Africa.

Brilliant.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is pretty much how the Gurkhas got started on the Imperial payroll :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on September 06, 2016, 14:17:41
Of course hiring the Nepalese pissed off the Hindu Regiments hired by the East Indian Company which helped to stir stuff up for the Mutiny. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on September 06, 2016, 14:22:41
UAV use in the Sahel would be an asset given the region is mostly flat, sparsely covered and with predictable, often clear and windy, weather conducive to flying operations.

Blue berets not carrying rifles, but flying unarmed UAVs and providing medical support would fit the current government's utopian ideals.

Yes, not to mention that REDFOR tends to operate near sources of fresh drinking water.  It's how the French are able to get away with a relatively small force for such a large plot of land.  All that is required is a few OPs watching the few rivers and oasis that exist, with a Fireforce waiting in helos back at base and catching the terrorists becomes far easier.  Just ISR soak the rivers and the rats will be found.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on September 06, 2016, 15:46:47
Blue berets not carrying rifles, but flying unarmed UAVs and providing medical support would fit the current government's utopian ideals.

I can't see me providing medical support in that craphole unarmed any more than I can see you doing that, celestial camouflage hat or not.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 06, 2016, 17:33:23
I can't see me providing medical support in that craphole unarmed any more than I can see you doing that, celestial camouflage hat or not.

MM

Do you need rifles in Nevada?  (Well, maaaaybe  ;D ).   And as for medical assistance - drop first aid kits from 20,000 feet.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on September 06, 2016, 17:58:15
Do you need rifles in Nevada?  (Well, maaaaybe  ;D ).   And as for medical assistance - drop first aid kits from 20,000 feet.

You never know - aliens from Area 51, rattlesnakes, mobsters, drunken tourists...the medical supplies from 20K up sounds good to me ;D

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 06, 2016, 21:51:58
Tick, tick, tick? (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1120979&tp=3)
Quote
Defence Minister Harjit S. Sajjan will travel to London, UK, from September 7 to 8, 2016, to participate in the UN Peacekeeping Defence Ministerial and to highlight Canada’s commitment to contributing to future UN peace support operations ...
So, rehash of this (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?mthd=advSrch&crtr.mnthndVl=&crtr.mnthStrtVl=&crtr.page=1&nid=1117209&crtr.yrndVl=&crtr.kw=peacekeeping&crtr.yrStrtVl=&crtr.dyStrtVl=&crtr.dyndVl=), or NEWS news?
:pop:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 08, 2016, 07:37:06
Tick, tick, tick? (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1120979&tp=3)
Quote
Defence Minister Harjit S. Sajjan will travel to London, UK, from September 7 to 8, 2016, to participate in the UN Peacekeeping Defence Ministerial and to highlight Canada’s commitment to contributing to future UN peace support operations ...
So, rehash of this (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?mthd=advSrch&crtr.mnthndVl=&crtr.mnthStrtVl=&crtr.page=1&nid=1117209&crtr.yrndVl=&crtr.kw=peacekeeping&crtr.yrStrtVl=&crtr.dyStrtVl=&crtr.dyndVl=), or NEWS news?
:pop:
Rehash it is, then (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do;jsessionid=b31c32b152fbfdde72a8d515268ba70d76ea676a8058dd710fa5811d5feb5888.e34Rc3iMbx8Oai0Tbx0SaxuRaxr0?mthd=index&crtr.page=1&nid=1121579) -- the Minister's speaking notes from the U.K. this week -- tea leaf highlights mine:
Quote
Defence Secretary Fallon, Defence ministerial colleagues, Ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you for this opportunity to address everyone today.

Last month, in an effort to better understand the ground truth of Africa’s many conflicts, I undertook a five-country visit on the continent.

The trip reinforced what all of us here know to be true: Conflicts today are more complex than ever before.

The actors are not always well defined, their goals are not always clear and their methods are far from conventional.

In short, we must elevate the conversation on peacekeeping. This is not peacekeeping of the past. Where peace does exist, it can often be tenuous.

Conflict resolution requires a creative, comprehensive approach. One that engages broadly, one that enlists the support of all organizations whose collective work will make peace endure.

Political, security, development, and humanitarian responses are all needed to establish peace. These solutions must be brought together under the umbrella of “peace operations”.

Canada is committed to being part of those solutions. Last month, our Government pledged up to 600 Canadian Armed Forces personnel to be available for possible deployment on United Nations peace support operations. Canada has also renewed the International Police Peacekeeping Program and committed to deploying up to 150 police officers over the coming years.

The women and men of our military are well trained and prepared to offer a range of capabilities.

Canada’s contribution to peace operations will have the protection of civilians as its principal objective. We will work to defend and protect the most helpless civilians in war torn areas, especially women and children, who bear the brunt of human rights abuses in conflicts.

We are determined to prevent sexual violence and protect other human rights abuses. We know that integrating gender perspectives in our mission planning and operations is a key to our success in these areas.

But we also know that real peace – lasting peace – requires more than a reactive approach. We must identify the factors that make protracted conflict possible. And we must eliminate them before the kindling is sparked.

We know that child soldiers, for instance, represent a near endless supply of fighters for radical groups bent on exploiting them.

In some African nations, the population under 25 years is nearly 60%. Not only are these youth the most vulnerable victims of conflict, they are the very fuel that powers the militias who enslave them.

The future stability of Africa hinges, in large part, on preventing the recruitment of children into armed conflict, and also on providing this new generation with hope and economic opportunity.

Canada’s contribution will not be only military in nature. We bring a ‘whole of government’ effort to the table. I work closely with my colleagues the Minister of Foreign Affairs Stephane Dion and International Development Minister Bibeau.

Together we are committed to the broad range of activities involved in peace support operations, including conflict prevention and mitigation, dialogue, and the empowerment of women in decision-making for peace and security.

A couple weeks ago, the Government of Canada also announced that we would devote $450 million dollars to our new Peace and Stabilization Operations Program.

We’re going to use this funding in a variety of ways.

Canada will support and enable Canadian diplomacy; especially by addressing the root causes of conflict. We will facilitate dialogue and conflict resolution, so that communities can recover their livelihoods and a sense of normalcy. We also want to make sure that women can participate meaningfully in peacebuilding, because we believe that this -- and all of the other activities I listed -- will lay the groundwork for stability in the troubled regions where we’ll operate.

We must stretch beyond traditional military roles and work closely with local authorities, NGOs, diplomats, and a range of international and regional partners, too.

Police officers must also be integrated in peace support missions, as will other trained professionals focussed on the prevention of sexual violence and human rights abuses. Each brings a specific skillset to our comprehensive response.

There is work to be done on so many fronts. But Canada has a rich history of leadership in supporting peace and can be a leader again.

Next year marks Canada’s 150th anniversary of Confederation. Throughout the year and across the country, we are planning activities to showcase and honour our history and what it means to be Canadian. In a most appropriate convergence of events, 2017 also marks the 60th anniversary of Lester B. Pearson’s Nobel Peace prize, for his role in resolving the Suez Crisis.

Supporting and encouraging peace is certainly part of what it means to be Canada. For that reason, I am pleased to announce today that Canada will host this Defence Ministerial conference next year. We truly look forward to continuing this important work with you.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the United Nations has welcomed Canada’s contribution and renewed engagement in peace operations.

Canada has a rich history of supporting and building peace around the world. We have seen the tremendous contributions that Canada and our allies can make, and we stand ready to take up this role again.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on September 08, 2016, 10:52:30
We must identify the factors that make protracted conflict possible. And we must eliminate them before the kindling is sparked.
Would that be a Platoon or a Company task?    :pop:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on September 08, 2016, 11:01:40
and how long will the "rest of government" hang around when their staff get killed?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on September 08, 2016, 11:12:51
One infantry platoon ... supported by a 550 people strong Corps level HQ, obviously.  :threat:

I find it interesting that, outside of Canada, at international conferences, Mr. Dion is identified as the Foreign Affairs minister - none of that "Global" crap.

I am looking at what the M.N.D. claims Canada wants to achieve in Africa, and all I can think of is "Good luck achieving that in our century!"
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on September 08, 2016, 11:22:16
I find it interesting that, outside of Canada, at international conferences, Mr. Dion is identified as the Foreign Affairs minister - none of that "Global" crap.

GAAAAAAAAC!   :blotto: ...oh, you mean the "for domestic post-election consumption in 20[insert year here]" name?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 08, 2016, 11:49:48
Quote
The women and men of our military are well trained and prepared to offer a range of capabilities.

Canada’s contribution to peace operations will have the protection of civilians as its principal objective. We will work to defend and protect the most helpless civilians in war torn areas, especially women and children, who bear the brunt of human rights abuses in conflicts.

We are determined to prevent sexual violence and protect other human rights abuses. We know that integrating gender perspectives in our mission planning and operations is a key to our success in these areas.

Does this mean that Canada's new role at the UN will be as custodian of the custodians? I guess all that SHARP training will finally pay off.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 08, 2016, 11:57:29
Does this mean that Canada's new role at the UN will be as custodian of the custodians? I guess all that SHARP training will finally pay off.
Even though we may not see the entire story via MSM (http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=53583#.V9F8DDHwlfY), that alone would be a MIGHTY big undertaking for anyone wanting to clean out that Augean stable.  #DiffifultYetThanklessTasks
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on September 08, 2016, 12:00:01
Another job for retired justice Deschamps?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 08, 2016, 13:03:41
I like it. When we get to Africa we can force allies and locals to take the Gender-based Analysis Plus module as well as whatever passes for SHARP training. A sort of train the trainer ambiance.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on September 08, 2016, 13:50:40
So, rehash of this (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?mthd=advSrch&crtr.mnthndVl=&crtr.mnthStrtVl=&crtr.page=1&nid=1117209&crtr.yrndVl=&crtr.kw=peacekeeping&crtr.yrStrtVl=&crtr.dyStrtVl=&crtr.dyndVl=), or NEWS news?
:pop:

Rehash it is, then (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do;jsessionid=b31c32b152fbfdde72a8d515268ba70d76ea676a8058dd710fa5811d5feb5888.e34Rc3iMbx8Oai0Tbx0SaxuRaxr0?mthd=index&crtr.page=1&nid=1121579) -- the Minister's speaking notes from the U.K. this week -- tea leaf highlights mine:

My reserved faith in this mission is dropping by the hour. This was literally a "buzz-word bingo" entry with absolutely no substance. If the goal is to essentially fix Africa, a continent with a myriad of issues that make ANYTHING in North America pale in comparison, how did we come to a 650 man number? What human rights are we defending- Natural human rights (life, liberty, etc) or the gimmicky UN ones (internet access is now a human right!).

When I read this all I could think of was the "Gender advisor" that was deployed to Ex TRIDENT JUNCTURE and what a gigantic waste of rations that position was. African issues need to be solved by Africans (same reason why I don't think there's any long term value in sending troops to fight ISIS- the solution needs to be an Arab one, done by Arabs, for Arabs) and not by outsiders who only understand the surface level issues. "Whitey" going back to former colonies and lecturing Africans on how to be more western serves no purpose than to make "Whitey" feel better about him/herself.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 08, 2016, 14:01:44
"Whitey" going back to former colonies and lecturing Africans on how to be more western serves no purpose than to make "Whitey" feel better about him/herself.
:nod:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 08, 2016, 17:28:14
Article Link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberals-plan-no-house-vote-on-peacekeeping-deployment/article31764257/)

Liberals won’t hold House vote on peacekeeping deployment

The Liberal government will not hold a vote in Parliament before committing troops to new peacekeeping missions, saying it received a mandate in the election to deploy soldiers on United Nations operations.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said the Liberals campaigned in 2015 on a revived commitment to UN peacekeeping and Canadians expect this government to proceed as they promised.
 
“We will be deciding in cabinet and moving forward as quickly as possible,” Mr. Sajjan said in an interview on Thursday when asked about the possibility of a House of Commons vote.

“The Prime Minister, even during the [2015] campaign – we’ve been very prominent about the importance of multilateral organizations and our re-engagement on peace operations with the United Nations.”

Mr. Sajjan was in London for a summit of defence ministers from 80 countries on efforts to bolster UN peacekeeping operations.

He announced that Canada will host the next UN Peacekeeping Defence Ministerial in 2017. This summit is a new forum, inaugurated this year in London, to improve UN efforts to resolve conflicts.

The Liberals are fully within their rights to send soldiers abroad without consulting the Commons, but the past decade saw former prime minister Stephen Harper seek parliamentary approval in some instances – for extensions or deployments of combat missions and military advisory operations in northern Iraq.

The government under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau pledged last month to make up to 600 troops available for UN peacekeeping missions – and to spend $450-million for peace and security projects around the world – but has yet to decide where Canadian soldiers will be posted.

Canada is expected to commit soldiers to a peacekeeping operation in Africa and options include Mali, the Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and South Sudan.

Mr. Sajjan said the government plans to put more focus on bringing gender equality between male and female soldiers to peacekeeping operations – including more leadership roles for women – and said the London meeting has offered evidence that the idea has gone “mainstream” because many other countries are discussing this as well. “You have many other nations who weren’t even allowing females into combat roles [that] are talking about the importance of it now,” he said.

The Defence Minister said he is still gathering information before a decision is made on a new peacekeeping deployment and he could not provide a timeline yet. “Let’s put it this way: It won’t be years,” he said. “It will be moving much faster.”

He said he would like to make an announcement this year, but he will not commit to a schedule for a decision until he knows that a deployment would make a meaningful contribution.

Conservative defence critic James Bezan said the Liberals are making commitments without sufficiently informing Canadians.

"It is unfair to Canadians, our allies, and most importantly to our troops for the Liberals to blindly pledge 600 Canadian troops to a ‘possible deployment’," he said in a statement. "Any use of the Canadian military must be in our national interest, not to secure a position on the United Nation’s Security Council or to fulfil the Prime Minister’s political aspirations. The Liberals must clearly lay out the details and risks of the mission before deploying Canadian personnel to a war zone."

Canadian soldiers’ participation in peacekeeping has dwindled over time to about 100 today – a significant decline from historical levels. Current deployments include about 30 in support of UN peacekeeping missions and 70 posted to a non-UN multinational peacekeeping operation in the Sinai Peninsula. The Liberals accused the former Conservative government of turning its back on peacekeeping.

Asked why Canada is pledging only 600 troops for peacekeeping when in the past this country has fielded many more soldiers for such operations, Mr. Sajjan said Canada would have the capacity to deploy more if necessary.

“We have the flexibility for more, but it’s better to be pragmatic about decisions like this,” he said.

He said Canada must also retain the capacity to deal with threats such as Islamic State militants. About 830 Canadian Armed Forces members are being deployed to improve the security of Iraq and surrounding areas.

Canada is also sending a battle group to Latvia as part of a move by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to counter Russian aggression in that region.

At one point in 1993, about 3,300 Canadian troops were deployed in UN peacekeeping operations, but some experts say that was an unusually high commitment.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 08, 2016, 17:57:51
Quote
Mr. Sajjan said the government plans to put more focus on bringing gender equality between male and female soldiers to peacekeeping operations – including more leadership roles for women – and said the London meeting has offered evidence that the idea has gone “mainstream” because many other countries are discussing this as well. “You have many other nations who weren’t even allowing females into combat roles [that] are talking about the importance of it now,” he said.



We should take all CIS males in leadership roles and put womyn put in those spots instead.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Retired AF Guy on September 08, 2016, 19:33:37

Rehash it is, then (http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do;jsessionid=b31c32b152fbfdde72a8d515268ba70d76ea676a8058dd710fa5811d5feb5888.e34Rc3iMbx8Oai0Tbx0SaxuRaxr0?mthd=index&crtr.page=1&nid=1121579) -- the Minister's speaking notes from the U.K. this week -- tea leaf highlights mine:

Gag me with a Smurf; a blue one of course!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jed on September 08, 2016, 21:30:44
It's good to be retired.  I don't think I would be able to stomach the hypocrisy and PC sunny ways the military is rapidly advancing towards adopting.

I fervently hope this sitting government is only in for 4 years so the irreparable damage is limited and can be eventually reversed.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on September 08, 2016, 22:14:27
Remember everyone, its not how hard you work, how good you are at your job, or the kind of leader you are: You're only getting a deployment or leadership position now if you're not a white anglo-saxon male.

Eventually I'm going to have to self-identify as a new gender, race, religion and language so I can get promoted.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 08, 2016, 23:24:46
Article Link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberals-plan-no-house-vote-on-peacekeeping-deployment/article31764257/)

Liberals won’t hold House vote on peacekeeping deployment

The Liberal government will not hold a vote in Parliament before committing troops to new peacekeeping missions, saying it received a mandate in the election to deploy soldiers on United Nations operations.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said the Liberals campaigned in 2015 on a revived commitment to UN peacekeeping and Canadians expect this government to proceed as they promised.
 
“We will be deciding in cabinet and moving forward as quickly as possible,” Mr. Sajjan said in an interview on Thursday when asked about the possibility of a House of Commons vote.

“The Prime Minister, even during the [2015] campaign – we’ve been very prominent about the importance of multilateral organizations and our re-engagement on peace operations with the United Nations.”

Mr. Sajjan was in London for a summit of defence ministers from 80 countries on efforts to bolster UN peacekeeping operations.

He announced that Canada will host the next UN Peacekeeping Defence Ministerial in 2017. This summit is a new forum, inaugurated this year in London, to improve UN efforts to resolve conflicts.

The Liberals are fully within their rights to send soldiers abroad without consulting the Commons, but the past decade saw former prime minister Stephen Harper seek parliamentary approval in some instances – for extensions or deployments of combat missions and military advisory operations in northern Iraq.

The government under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau pledged last month to make up to 600 troops available for UN peacekeeping missions – and to spend $450-million for peace and security projects around the world – but has yet to decide where Canadian soldiers will be posted.

Canada is expected to commit soldiers to a peacekeeping operation in Africa and options include Mali, the Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and South Sudan.

Mr. Sajjan said the government plans to put more focus on bringing gender equality between male and female soldiers to peacekeeping operations – including more leadership roles for women – and said the London meeting has offered evidence that the idea has gone “mainstream” because many other countries are discussing this as well. “You have many other nations who weren’t even allowing females into combat roles [that] are talking about the importance of it now,” he said.

The Defence Minister said he is still gathering information before a decision is made on a new peacekeeping deployment and he could not provide a timeline yet. “Let’s put it this way: It won’t be years,” he said. “It will be moving much faster.”

He said he would like to make an announcement this year, but he will not commit to a schedule for a decision until he knows that a deployment would make a meaningful contribution.

Conservative defence critic James Bezan said the Liberals are making commitments without sufficiently informing Canadians.

"It is unfair to Canadians, our allies, and most importantly to our troops for the Liberals to blindly pledge 600 Canadian troops to a ‘possible deployment’," he said in a statement. "Any use of the Canadian military must be in our national interest, not to secure a position on the United Nation’s Security Council or to fulfil the Prime Minister’s political aspirations. The Liberals must clearly lay out the details and risks of the mission before deploying Canadian personnel to a war zone."

Canadian soldiers’ participation in peacekeeping has dwindled over time to about 100 today – a significant decline from historical levels. Current deployments include about 30 in support of UN peacekeeping missions and 70 posted to a non-UN multinational peacekeeping operation in the Sinai Peninsula. The Liberals accused the former Conservative government of turning its back on peacekeeping.

Asked why Canada is pledging only 600 troops for peacekeeping when in the past this country has fielded many more soldiers for such operations, Mr. Sajjan said Canada would have the capacity to deploy more if necessary.

“We have the flexibility for more, but it’s better to be pragmatic about decisions like this,” he said.

He said Canada must also retain the capacity to deal with threats such as Islamic State militants. About 830 Canadian Armed Forces members are being deployed to improve the security of Iraq and surrounding areas.

Canada is also sending a battle group to Latvia as part of a move by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to counter Russian aggression in that region.

At one point in 1993, about 3,300 Canadian troops were deployed in UN peacekeeping operations, but some experts say that was an unusually high commitment.

It looks like this Liberal government may not have learned much from the mistakes of a previous Liberal government:

Somalia Affair

The Somalia Affair was a 1993 military scandal later dubbed "Canada's national shame".[1] It peaked with the beating to death of a Somali teenager at the hands of two Canadian soldiers participating in humanitarian efforts in Somalia. The crime, documented by grisly photos, shocked the Canadian public and brought to light internal problems in the Canadian Airborne Regiment. Military leadership were sharply rebuked after a CBC reporter received altered documents, leading to allegations of a cover-up.

Eventually a public inquiry was called. Despite being controversially cut short by the government, the Somalia Inquiry cited problems in the leadership of the Canadian Forces. The affair led to the disbanding of Canada's elite Canadian Airborne Regiment, greatly damaging the morale of the Canadian Forces, and marring the domestic and international reputation of Canadian soldiers. It also led to the immediate reduction of Canadian military spending by nearly 25% from the time of the killing to the inquiry.[1][2]

The final report of the inquiry was a striking attack on the procedures, support and leadership of the Canadian Forces and the Ministry of Defence. Many of the top officers in the Canadian Forces were excoriated, including three separate Chiefs of the Defence Staff. The CAR had been rushed into a war zone with inadequate preparation or legal support. Enquiry observer retired Brigadier-General Dan Loomis noted that the operation had changed, in December 1992, "from a peacekeeping operation, where arms are used only in self-defence, to one where arms could be used proactively to achieve politico-military objectives ... In short the Canadian Forces were being put on active service and sent to war (as defined by Chapter 7 of the UN Charter)." Its deployment into "war" had never been debated in parliament and indeed the Canadian public had been led to believe by its government that the CAR was on a "peacekeeping" mission. After the events the leaders of the Canadian Forces had been far more concerned with self-preservation than in trying to find the truth. The inquiry report singled out Major-General Lewis MacKenzie as a major exception, as he took full responsibility for any errors he made.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on September 09, 2016, 00:06:13
Hate to say this Daftandbarmy, but when you are wrong, well ... you are wrong:

The Somalia operation was laid down by the Mulroney government, a PC government. Then the scandal arose from the Department of defence trying to hush to whole thing so as to not hinder the then Minister of National Defence Kim Campbell's run at the leadership of the party, again all PC. It had nothing to do with  the Liberal party.

Then the Liberal, after regaining power in Ottawa, instituted the Somalia inquiry, which did not exactly shine, and showed the high ups in DND and the CF leadership in a pretty bad light.

Oh! And Lew Mackenzie had absolutely nothing to do with the whole affair. The Somalia inquiry basically found him to have some responsibility for the Airborne's leadership problem, but that was on the sole basis of superior command responsibility (they were in his Army command) which, at some point included oversight of the Airborne regiment, in which he had never served per se. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jed on September 09, 2016, 00:17:12
Hate to say this Daftandbarmy, but when you are wrong, well ... you are wrong:

The Somalia operation was laid down by the Mulroney government, a PC government. Then the scandal arose from the Department of defence trying to hush to whole thing so as to not hinder the then Minister of National Defence Kim Campbell's run at the leadership of the party, again all PC. It had nothing to do with  the Liberal party.

Then the Liberal, after regaining power in Ottawa, instituted the Somalia inquiry, which did not exactly shine, and showed the high ups in DND and the CF leadership in a pretty bad light.

Funny, I certainly don't recall it that way. Kim Campbell's time as MND and PM was very short.  I recall the liberal MND putting the boots to CAR in 1993 - 1994 primarily for economic reasons.  And the Air element not being too overly concerned as it wasn't their CF 18's.  (They were later choked about the F5's, helicopters, etc.} The long dragged out flogging was perpetuated by the Liberals and was the start of the Decade of Darkness.

Just like we now seem to be starting up another decade of darkness.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 09, 2016, 08:34:00
I agree, broadly, with OGBD ~ completely as to the timeline and who was in power at each phase.

As to "blame," well ...

The leadership problems in the CAR were well pretty known circa 1980: the assaults, the misuse of explosives, the harassment, and so on ... none of it was "new" to the Army but the CAR seemed, from where I stood, to add a little extra pizzazz to it all. Essentially, all soldiers always get into mischief but the CAR soldiers, perhaps being better trained, got deeper into it. My sense (and I knew several of the "players" personally, some were and still are friends) was that Paul Morneault, then CO CAR, understood the problem and had a solution which the institutional army (which included Ernie Beno, John de Chastelain, Jim Gervais, Lew MacKenzie, and Gord Reay) would not accept. Additionally, Paul spent too much of his valuable time doing staff work that was the proper function of his OpsO, QM and Adjt and not enough time kicking the asses of his line officers (and Paul could have beaten Seward at anything and everything) and fighting for his regiment against the practices of the other infantry regiments (mainly of sending, as Peter Kenward said, their "bad apples" to the CAR and leaving them there).

The decision to send the CAR to Somalia was 100% John de Chastelain. He had, some months earlier, when a proposed Western Sahara mission fell though, promised the CAR, in public, that the next big mission would be theirs. Notwithstanding at least one report that said that a light armoured unit would be the best "fit" for the mission I am pretty sure (I was a lcol, at the time, on the staff in NDHQ, but not directly involved in recommending that sort of thing ... my responsibilities were of a facilitation and support nature) that it was CAR from day one ... because Prince John said so.

The decision to fire Morneault may have been mistaken but it was taken based on good officers' reasoned and seasoned judgement ... which in the end is all we usually have to guide us. The decision to replace him with Carol Matthieu, however, was made by a little cabal of senior officers and, although they had been told to find the best available infantry lcol, regimental matters got in the way. Lew MacKenzie said, in public, that it ended up that the best available infantry lcol was a PPCLI officer, as were the second and third best, but it was agreed that it would look bad if a bunch of PPCLI senior officer (he, de Chastelain and Reay) "parachuted" one of their own in so they decided to look for the best available R22R officer and that was Matthieu.

Carol Matthieu was not a bad officer, but he had a near impossible task, and he found poor guidance and no useful, helpful support in Serge Labbe, the Canadian contingent commander ... who was a "rising star" in the army but was already known to have poor personal judgment.

I wasn't there, in Somalia, so I don't know who did what to whom.

The Somalia Inquiry (http://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/1994-somalia-inquiry-to-investigate-canadian-military-scandal) was a farce. In my opinion Justice Gilles Létourneau came in, on day one, with his mind made up, but after a combination of media howling and Dr Barry Armstrong's public statements it had to happen. It was, if my memory serves, very much a case of blind men and elephants ...

               (https://cviteacher.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/blind-men-and-the-elephant.gif)

Disbanding the CAR was also, in my opinion, inevitable ... after the "hazing" videos came out. But it's not clear to me that the CAR was ever a good fit for Canada, post Mike Pearson. I am 99.9% certain that none of Pierre Trudeau, Brian Mulroney, Jean Chrétien, Stephen Harper or Justin Trudeau ever wanted, nor even imagined  a foreign policy that needed a hard hitting, quick reaction, combat force as part of its public face.


Edit: typo


Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on September 09, 2016, 09:59:02
Quote
I am 99.9% certain that none of Pierre Trudeau, Brian Mulroney, Jean Chrétien, Stephen Harper or Justin Trudeau ever wanted, nor even imagined  a foreign policy that needed a hard hitting, quick reaction, combat force as part of its public face.

Agree, with special emphasis on the highlighted bit above. 

That said, Harper found what he was looking for in 2006 and beyond, in the well-trained and well-equipped and most importantly, much better-disciplined CSOR.  In time, it (through CANSOFCOM) was allowed to lift the Kimono a wee bit, and let Canadians know how things could be done....correctly (disciplined and effective)...with the appropriate will and fitting ways.

:2c:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 09, 2016, 11:55:01
I recall a CSM in 1 VP actually saying "send Bloggins to the Airborne, they'll sort him out". It turns out several people had the same thought and there was a critical mass of miscreants in Pet in the early 90s.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on September 09, 2016, 13:11:29
I guy I went through Basic, Borden and 1st posting with had a younger brother who was considered too agressive for the RCR, was sent to the CAR and was thought to be their kind of man.  He went onto serve in Somalia on that mission (albeit without involvement in the incident).
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on September 09, 2016, 13:38:04
.... was considered too agressive for the RCR
He wanted to paint rocks with spray paint rather than a brush?     :whistle:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 09, 2016, 13:42:16
Article Link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberals-plan-no-house-vote-on-peacekeeping-deployment/article31764257/)

Liberals won’t hold House vote on peacekeeping deployment
Ah, what's good for the (Team Blue) goose doesn't seem to be quite good enough for the (Team Red) gander  :tsktsk:

Meanwhile, other reads of what Sajjan & others have  said (or didn't say) ...
Quote
... The minister was asked repeatedly whether the eventual mission would be voted on by MPs from all parties in the House, but he did not answer the question directly ...
(source (http://globalnews.ca/news/2928244/defence-minister-wont-commit-to-house-of-commons-vote-on-peacekeeping-mission/))
Quote
... International Development Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau told The Huffington Post Quebec this week that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will make the final call about a future mission with his ministers, not members of Parliament.

"The decision will be taken at the cabinet committee," Bibeau said in an interview Tuesday.

She did suggest, however, that there could still be a debate in the House of Commons ...
(source (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/09/08/liberals-peacekeeping-vote-bibeau-sajjan_n_11913330.html))
Sorry, Team Red - if you insisted on some level of parliamentary participation with other missions (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/parliament-to-debate-post-2011-role-in-afghanistan/article4288607/), hard not to look hypocritical if you don't allow at least some level of participation for your own deployments.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 09, 2016, 14:59:55
Quote from: milnews.ca
Sorry, Team Red - if you insisted on some level of parliamentary participation with other missions (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/parliament-to-debate-post-2011-role-in-afghanistan/article4288607/), hard not to look hypocritical if you don't allow at least some level of participation for your own deployments.

Funny that.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on September 09, 2016, 15:28:32
There has been some message adjustment in the last 24 hours.
Quote
Sajjan wavers on Commons vote
Defence Minister says Liberals won’t seek parliamentary support on peace missions, then backtracks

Steven Chase
The Globe and Mail
09 Sep 16

The federal government is refusing to commit to a parliamentary vote on troop deployments for what it promises will be a return to a major peacekeeping role for Canada – one or more missions that could hold significant peril for soldiers in an era in which stabilizing conflict zones has grown more dangerous.

The government shifted message on this matter within a matter of hours on Thursday. Early in the day, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan told The Globe and Mail that the Liberals would not put the matter to a vote in the House of Commons.

The government is currently considering options for a major new peacekeeping deployment and Mr. Sajjan said in a taped interview that the government had already received an election mandate from voters to deploy soldiers to United Nations operations.

Asked twice whether there would be parliamentary votes on peacekeeping deployments, he replied: “No. We will be deciding in cabinet and moving forward as quickly as possible on this.”

But later in the day, after questions from journalists on a teleconference, Mr. Sajjan declined to answer whether MPs would be asked to vote on peacekeeping deployment.

Instead, he said the cabinet will determine how things will proceed. “Once we have that discussion, a process will be decided on,” he said.

His office later said the government was not ruling out a parliamentary vote.

In the Globe interview, Mr. Sajjan said Liberals campaigned in 2015 on a revived commitment to UN peacekeeping and Canadians expect this government to proceed as they promised.

“The Prime Minister, even during the [2015] campaign – we’ve been very prominent about the importance of multilateral organizations and our re-engagement on peace operations with the United Nations.”

Mr. Sajjan was in London for a summit of defence ministers from 80 countries on efforts to bolster UN peacekeeping operations.

He announced that Canada will host the next UN Peacekeeping Defence Ministerial in 2017. This summit is a new forum, inaugurated this year in London, to improve UN efforts to resolve conflicts.

The Liberals are fully within their rights to send soldiers abroad without consulting the Commons, but the past decade saw former prime minister Stephen Harper hold votes in some instances – for extensions or deployments of combat missions.

The government under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau pledged last month to make up to 600 troops available for UN peacekeeping missions – and to spend $450-million for peace and security projects around the world – but it has yet to decide where Canadian soldiers will be posted.

Canada is expected to commit soldiers to a peacekeeping operation in Africa and options include Mali, the Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and South Sudan.

Mr. Sajjan said the government plans to put more focus on bringing gender equality between male and female soldiers to peacekeeping operations – including more leadership roles for women – and said the London meeting has offered evidence that the idea has gone “mainstream” because many other countries are discussing this as well. “You have many other nations who weren’t even allowing females into combat roles [that] are talking about the importance of it now,” he said.

The Defence Minister said he is still gathering information before a decision is made on a new peacekeeping deployment and he could not provide a timeline.

“Let’s put it this way: It won’t be years,” he said. “It will be moving much faster.”

He said he would like to make an announcement this year, but he will not commit to a schedule for a decision until he knows that a deployment would make a meaningful contribution.

The Liberals have come under fire this year for limiting debate on legislation on medically assisted dying.

NDP foreign affairs critic Hélène Laverdière called on the Liberals to hold a vote on any peacekeeping deployment. “For a government that wants to consult on every issue, I do not understand why they wouldn’t consult Parliament when it comes to combat or peacekeeping missions.”

Conservative defence critic James Bezan said the Liberals are making commitments without sufficiently informing Canadians.

Philippe Lagassé, an associate professor of international affairs at Carleton University in Ottawa, said he is not a fan of parliamentary votes on military missions partly because there are no clear rules on when they are necessary.

“In Canada, the practice is effectively to vote when the executive thinks it’s in its political interest to do so. Is that the best approach?” He said the Commons could make “take note” debates on deployments mandatory.
 

If the Liberals want to keep their cake and eat it too, I suggest that they make it a budget bill.  The government is right (as were previous governments) that the executive does not need to ask permission of the legislative to deploy the military.  But, Parliament does have the right to approve the budget.  So make a special appropriation to fund this mission without cutting into defence baseline funding.  Parliament gets its debate and vote on what money to spend, and the government gets to claim that it retained its prerogative to deploy the military or not.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 09, 2016, 15:32:50
There has been some message adjustment enforcement massaging refinement in the last 24 hours.
;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on September 09, 2016, 15:34:47
Yep!

Them's the same people that claimed that PM Harper did not have legitimacy because he got a majority government without getting a majority of the casted votes - so if they were elected, FPTP would be changed. Then get elected to a majority government with a smaller percentage of the casted votes - but now it is legitimate for them to change the only way Canadians have voted (FPTP) for the (almost) last 150 years without going back to see first if an actual majority of Canadian want that change.

Democracy, and its boundaries, is a highly flexible concept in that government's mind, rather elastic where it favours their point of view - and notwithstanding contradiction with their past own selves.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 09, 2016, 15:35:26
Hate to say this Daftandbarmy, but when you are wrong, well ... you are wrong:

The Somalia operation was laid down by the Mulroney government, a PC government. Then the scandal arose from the Department of defence trying to hush to whole thing so as to not hinder the then Minister of National Defence Kim Campbell's run at the leadership of the party, again all PC. It had nothing to do with  the Liberal party.

Then the Liberal, after regaining power in Ottawa, instituted the Somalia inquiry, which did not exactly shine, and showed the high ups in DND and the CF leadership in a pretty bad light.

Oh! And Lew Mackenzie had absolutely nothing to do with the whole affair. The Somalia inquiry basically found him to have some responsibility for the Airborne's leadership problem, but that was on the sole basis of superior command responsibility (they were in his Army command) which, at some point included oversight of the Airborne regiment, in which he had never served per se.

I never said I was perfect, just good looking (and humble:) )
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 09, 2016, 16:29:38
Yep!

Them's the same people that claimed that PM Harper did not have legitimacy because he got a majority government without getting a majority of the casted votes - so if they were elected, FPTP would be changed. Then get elected to a majority government with a smaller percentage of the casted votes - but now it is legitimate for them to change the only way Canadians have voted (FPTP) for the (almost) last 150 years without going back to see first if an actual majority of Canadian want that change.

Democracy, and its boundaries, is a highly flexible concept in that government's mind, rather elastic where it favours their point of view - and notwithstanding contradiction with their past own selves.

A very large shopping list of promises in their platform.  All agreed in detail by the public when the public voted the Liberals into power.  No further need for votes.

One man.  One vote.  One time.   >:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on September 09, 2016, 19:23:46
Awwwwww, Chris, you're being critical of the current Government.  This threads going to be locked too now.   ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 09, 2016, 19:26:39
It's pretty narrow minded to assume 100% of the people who voted Liberal support 100% of the platform promises they made in so far as to say they "had already received an election mandate from voters to deploy soldiers to United Nations operations."  so it's good to go.

And even then I think it's pretty safe to say the majority of Canadians who voted Liberal aren't in a position to deploy to Africa and risk death or getting smashed up then having to deal with the nightmare that is veterans affairs.   All to seemingly get a gender-neutral coloured UN mug.


Pretty easy to gamble with other peoples money.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on September 09, 2016, 19:29:29
And lives.

And health.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jed on September 09, 2016, 19:31:13
It's pretty narrow minded to assume 100% of the people who voted Liberal support 100% of the platform promises they made in so far as to say they "had already received an election mandate from voters to deploy soldiers to United Nations operations."  so it's good to go.

And even then I think it's pretty safe to say the majority of Canadians who voted Liberal aren't in a position to deploy to Africa and risk death or getting smashed up then having to deal with the nightmare that is veterans affairs.   All to seemingly get a gender-neutral coloured UN mug.


Pretty easy to gamble with other peoples money.

Yah, but what about a rainbow coloured gender-neutral Tishirt?   [:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 09, 2016, 19:34:32
It's pretty narrow minded to assume 100% of the people who voted Liberal support 100% of the platform promises they made in so far as to say they "had already received an election mandate from voters to deploy soldiers to United Nations operations."  so it's good to go.

And even then I think it's pretty safe to say the majority of Canadians who voted Liberal aren't in a position to deploy to Africa and risk death or getting smashed up then having to deal with the nightmare that is veterans affairs.   All to seemingly get a gender-neutral coloured UN mug.


Pretty easy to gamble with other peoples money.
Say what?

Should soldiers be the ones that decide where they go and when because we have skin in the game?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on September 09, 2016, 19:40:42
Say what?

Should soldiers be the ones that decide where they go and when because we have skin in the game?

Coherent foreign and defense policy should decide where we're going to dip our toes. Soldiers have just as much one person one vote as anyone else. Biggest problem is, mission is not being debated in the Commons, as demanded previously by these very same Liberals. Yes, the motion will pass to deploy as they have a majority. However, it allows proper debate and firmer details dragged out of the government instead of the piecemeal crap we've been fed thus far.

There has been 0 justification provided for us to deploy to Africa other than "Security Council Seat".
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 09, 2016, 19:49:07
Coherent foreign and defense policy should decide where we're going to dip our toes. Soldiers have just as much one person one vote as anyone else. Biggest problem is, mission is not being debated in the Commons, as demanded previously by these very same Liberals. Yes, the motion will pass to deploy as they have a majority. However, it allows proper debate and firmer details dragged out of the government instead of the piecemeal crap we've been fed thus far.

There has been 0 justification provided for us to deploy to Africa other than "Security Council Seat".
I agree, it should be debated in the Commons. I'm actually pretty sure it will be, this government has backtracked in the face of public opposition in the past and I am pretty sure they will on this one.

As for security Council seat, I dare you to bring up where one Liberal has used that as a justification for this mission. Is it common knowledge?  Sure. Have the Liberals ever once used it as a reason? No.

What they have said is they want to be more engaged with the UN and one of their election promises was to go back to UN peacekeeping. Sure, be pissed about the mission. Don't make stuff up.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 09, 2016, 19:51:30
Say what?

Should soldiers be the ones that decide where they go and when because we have skin in the game?

Moving the goal posts eh?
It's a hell of a lot easier voting to send soldiers to war zone Africa when it's not your guts on the line-not sure how to simplify my statement more for you.


The mali army
https://www.funker530.com/clown-army-of-mali-techniques-analyzed/
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on September 09, 2016, 19:55:05
As for security Council seat, I dare you to bring up where one Liberal has used that as a justification for this mission. Is it common knowledge?  Sure. Have the Liberals ever once used it as a reason? No.

What they have said is they want to be more engaged with the UN and one of their election promises was to go back to UN peacekeeping. Sure, be pissed about the mission. Don't make stuff up.

I'm sorry you can't read between the lines. Canada has been engaged with the UN for the last 20 years, we're not "back". The issue is, the previous government wouldn't compromise on principles, so we lost the votes of the third world dictators who didn't like that when we ran for the last seat and voted against us. If we drop a bunch of peacekeepers somewhere, and court Iran's vote by removing sanctions from a country who consistently threatens to wipe Israel off the map, maybe we can totally get that seat.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: mariomike on September 09, 2016, 19:58:07
"Whitey" going back to former colonies and lecturing Africans on how to be more western serves no purpose than to make "Whitey" feel better about him/herself.

Will there be a possibility of,

Fighting child soldiers?
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=104732.0

As if there is not enough mayhem going on already in our cities, BLM would have a field day with that.

Based on past experience, an estimate from government "brain specialists" about the number of potential PTSD claims might be of interest.

I never said I was perfect, just good looking (and humble:) )

What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left. < Just kidding.  :)

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on September 09, 2016, 20:11:20
Say what?

Should soldiers be the ones that decide where they go and when because we have skin in the game?

Say what?

Should soldiers (and sailors and airmen) not be allowed to express displeasure at being used as pawns in pursuit of somebody's personal  vanity project, à la some mediaeval king?

Is expectation of a clear, coherent, logical, justifiable reason for being placed in danger so outlandish?

I get it - you're hot and horny to go anywhere, for anything, anytime, for any reason. Those who have lost/discarded their deployment virginity, however, tend to look at such things a little more critically.

Like many here, and as I said upthread, I've been to too many funerals, most for people that I knew and served with, and have seen too many grieving, shattered families. There had better be a ****ing valid reason for this.

If a valid reason magically appears - and I am not optimistic - I will cautiously back a deployment, but not until then.

And nobody said anything about "soldiers (and sailors and airmen) decid(ing) where they go and when".
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 09, 2016, 20:19:02
Say what?

Should soldiers be the ones that decide where they go and when because we have skin in the game?

No.  In a mercenary army (sorry, all-volunteer) army like ours, the soldiers get to decide if the game is worth the candle.  They can withdraw their services.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 09, 2016, 20:25:48
Moving the goal posts eh?
It's a hell of a lot easier voting to send soldiers to war zone Africa when it's not your guts on the line-not sure how to simplify my statement more for you.


The mali army
https://www.funker530.com/clown-army-of-mali-techniques-analyzed/
Sure and it's been that way since the roman empire.

What of it? Soldiers have never decided where they go unless it's soldiers running the country.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 09, 2016, 20:38:50
Sure and it's been that way since the roman empire.

What of it? Soldiers have never decided where they go unless it's soldiers running the country.

Why are you inventing a strawman argument when clearly  no one suggested soldiers should be the ones to decide where and when they deploy?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 09, 2016, 20:41:37
Why are you inventing a strawman argument when clearly  no one suggested soldiers should be the ones to decide where and when they deploy?
If someone says it's easier to vote for soldiers deploying because it's not them that have to go, how else do you take that?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 09, 2016, 21:15:53
If someone says it's easier to vote for soldiers deploying because it's not them that have to go, how else do you take that?

Exactly how it reads ;)

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on September 09, 2016, 21:16:05
If someone says it's easier to vote for soldiers deploying because it's not them that have to go, how else do you take that?

Perhaps as a bunch of civilians who are helping decide where a country (Canada) should direct its foreign efforts, and that they don't have a personal connection or appreciation to the reality on the ground, so it's easier for them to support going to a place they "think" they understand, but don't really?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on September 09, 2016, 21:16:18
Sure and it's been that way since the roman empire.

What of it? Soldiers have never decided where they go unless it's soldiers running the country.

The bigger issue is that the Liberals, while in opposition, used things such as the Conservatives not voting on Libya to show that they were not respecting parliament. Then in power they do the same things, but without any sort of clear mission or end state. Also stating that they dont need to have a vote since their election win was a clear "mandate" from the people also smacks of self importance and hypocrisy.

Everyone in the military understands that once the powers that be say it's go time that it's go time. However, there is still a valid reason to ask why for those in the military and for the citizens of Canada, of whom 61% didn't vote for the Liberal mandate.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 09, 2016, 21:27:47
The bigger issue is that the Liberals, while in opposition, used things such as the Conservatives not voting on Libya to show that they were not respecting parliament. Then in power they do the same things, but without any sort of clear mission or end state. Also stating that they dont need to have a vote since their election win was a clear "mandate" from the people also smacks of self importance and hypocrisy.

Everyone in the military understands that once the powers that be say it's go time that it's go time. However, there is still a valid reason to ask why for those in the military and for the citizens of Canada, of whom 61% didn't vote for the Liberal mandate.
I agree.

I still believe they will. They backed down on forcing MPs to be on schedule for votes.

They backed down on having a majority on the committee on electoral reform.

I think they will back down on this.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 09, 2016, 21:30:33
Perhaps as a bunch of civilians who are helping decide where a country (Canada) should direct its foreign efforts, and that they don't have a personal connection or appreciation to the reality on the ground, so it's easier for them to support going to a place they "think" they understand, but don't really?
When has this not been the case?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on September 09, 2016, 21:53:35
When has this not been the case?

How's about when many of the MPs were veterans themselves and/or serving in the military.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 09, 2016, 22:05:58
How's about when many of the MPs were veterans themselves and/or serving in the military.
And when was this?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 09, 2016, 22:32:29
Quote
...Over the history of the House of Commons, only 18 per cent of the 4,202 MPs ever elected have military duty on their resume, according to statistics on the parliamentary website.

Among them was George Baker, elected as a Tory in 1911 as the Canadian government decided to join the British effort in the First World War. He then joined the military and was the commander of the 5th Canadian Mounted Rifles when he was killed in action at Ypres in July 1915.

The majority of MPs who have military records come from the First and Second World Wars, when collectively about 2 million Canadians served in the forces.

Fewer veterans to draw on

As the number of Canadians serving has dwindled, so too has the number of politicians drawn from their ranks, said military historian Christian Leuprecht.

"In the U.S., the military has a strong linkage with society — one in eight Americans will serve at some point in their lifetime," he said via email from a conference in Spain.

"In Canada, it's closer to 1 in 100. It just doesn't have the same cachet as it does in the U.S."

Of the 43 men who have served as U.S. president, only 11 have zero military experience on their resume. By contrast, of the 22 Canadian prime ministers, 15 have never done military duty.

The last prime minister to see active duty was Lester Pearson, who was both a member of the Canadian Army Medical Corps during the First World War and then a pilot in Britain

Thirteen current MPs list some military service in their official backgrounds: two are Liberals, five are New Democrats and six are Conservatives.....

This referred to the last parliament.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mps-send-soldiers-to-war-but-few-have-gone-themselves-1.1188017
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on September 09, 2016, 22:38:22
And when was this?

Feel free to look it up, there's been 836 members whom have connections to service in the military.

http://www.lop.parl.gc.ca/ParlInfo/lists/MilitaryService.aspx?Menu=HOC-Bio&Section=03d93c58-f843-49b3-9653-84275c23f3fb
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 10, 2016, 07:29:57
Feel free to look it up, there's been 836 members whom have connections to service in the military.

http://www.lop.parl.gc.ca/ParlInfo/lists/MilitaryService.aspx?Menu=HOC-Bio&Section=03d93c58-f843-49b3-9653-84275c23f3fb
And if you go thru it, you maaaaaaay be surprised which party ends up with a larger number of folks with military service ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on September 10, 2016, 07:41:43
Lieberals, I'm sure, although NDP would make milk squirt out my nose and bust my gut laughing.

OK, just had a quick look and as suspected, Lieberals for the win (they weren't always whiney anti-military bitches).  But holy frig Batman, I've never heard of, nevermind dreamed of the so many different parties listed over the years.  Amazing.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 10, 2016, 07:52:33
Lieberals, I'm sure, although NDP would make milk squirt out my nose and bust my gut laughing. OK, just had a quick look and as suspected, Lieberals for the win. 
Also likely because they've been up to bat a bit more often, too.

I think the captain of the ship makes more of a difference in our system than the make-up of the crew when it comes to political decision making, including military.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on September 10, 2016, 09:30:30
When has this not been the case?

Arguably never, and exactly why I answered as I did to your original question here:

If someone says it's easier to vote for soldiers deploying because it's not them that have to go, how else do you take that?

You do remember asking that question, right?  Perhaps you could knock out the middle man and entertain us with you challenging your own questions.  :nod:

G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 10, 2016, 12:18:59
Har Sajan is our current Minister of National Defence. A former soldier, with recent operational experience, and a good one.

Even he will have not much to say about how, when or where we deploy our troops, I'm sure, as he will be expected to support the 'will of the government of the day'. Just like the rest of us.

'I am a soldier
And unapt to weep
Or to exclaim upon fortune's fickleness'

Henry VI
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on September 10, 2016, 13:25:10
Sure he is expected to support the will of the government, but as a minister he is also expected to have a role in crafting, guiding and developing that will.  As MND, he should have very much to say about how, when, where and why.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 10, 2016, 13:46:29
It seems like there's been a few times now where the MND has went on the record and said something only to turn around and change his statement days or even hours later.  I can't imagine he appreciates being put in that position anymore than we are when it happens to us.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 10, 2016, 14:37:30
The MND has an opportunity to bring his views to the Cabinet table.  He has an opportunity to influence the decision.  He doesn't get to make the decision. 

Once the decision is made then he has a duty to implement the decision.  Or quit.

His life, and that of any other Minister, is actually pretty simple.

To prevent being embarrassed he is wise to hold his opinions to himself.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on September 11, 2016, 10:06:04
That challenge is to be proactive in a manner that fits within toeing the line that the small cloister may (or may not) be clearly articulating to such ministers (or even MPs, for that matter).  What would no doubt be frustrating would be discussing issues in a manner consistent with the Party line, then get your chain yanked because senior insiders changed the line (based on the classic Liberal method of ruling by poles) and didn't do anyone the courtesy of letting them know of the change.   'Hypothetically'

:2c:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 11, 2016, 11:50:06
"Hypothetically".

That level of inconstancy, in my opinion, is likely to push an honourable person to struggle with the decision of whether to stay in, and keep trying, or pursue other options.

Hypothetically.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on September 22, 2016, 01:45:40
For those who doubt the government, do you have any confidence in hearing the message from Gen Vance?

Quote
Canada's top general rejects notion peacekeepers are being used to political ends
Jonathan Vance says he would never put troops in harms way to win a UN Security Council seat

Lee Berthiaume
CBC news
21 Sep 2016

The country's top soldier is pushing back against suggestions the Liberal government wants to use Canadian troops for political purposes by deploying them on United Nations peacekeeping missions.

The opposition Conservatives accused the Liberals this week of treating the military like "pawns" by promising to support peacekeeping operations in exchange for a UN Security Council seat.

The Liberal government has promised up to 600 troops for future peacekeeping operations, as well as 150 police officers and $450 million for peace support operations.

But chief of the defence staff Gen. Jonathan Vance said Wednesday that Canadian troops will be deployed as peacekeepers for no other reason than to help bring peace and stability to another part of the world.

"I reject the notion that this is done simply for political reasons and putting troops in harm's way into risky areas for anything other than the true merits of the value of the use of military force," he said.

Vance told the Senate defence committee that his staff members are looking at various UN mission options to see where Canada could best contribute. The government still has not decided on a specific mission, he added.

Vance wouldn't say which missions the government is currently considering, but he acknowledged that many — if not all — carry some degree of risk. He said he wouldn't advise Canada participate in a mission with unnecessary or unmanageable risk.

"But a risky mission that has great potential of success may be a mission that you want to invest in," he said. "And the military, we do risk. We're good at that, if we can mitigate it."

Some have worried that Canadian peacekeepers could be put into a no-win situation, or bound by endless UN bureaucracy that might tie their hands or otherwise put them at risk, such as in previous missions in Rwanda and Bosnia.

Vance said UN commanders might give Canadian troops specific tasks, but he would "never" let the UN have the last word on when or how Canadian peacekeepers could act. He said he is the one who writes the rules of engagement for Canadian troops, which would continue with a peacekeeping mission.

"I never relinquish Canadian command of those troops," he said. "We have learned a lot since the days of Bosnia and Rwanda and elsewhere. And one of those is you're never out from under Canadian command."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/peacekeeping-vance-not-political-1.3773216
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Halifax Tar on September 22, 2016, 07:32:08
For those who doubt the government, do you have any confidence in hearing the message from Gen Vance?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/peacekeeping-vance-not-political-1.3773216

I don't think he really has a choice.  If the gov says go here for what ever reason he must follow orders no ?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on September 22, 2016, 08:23:27
I don't think he really has a choice.  If the gov says go here for what ever reason he must follow orders no ?

After having his say in private with the MND and PM if this government is doing things the way Harper and Martin administrations did.  I understand Jean C wasn't much for talking to top soldiers though and this crowd draws more on that side of the Liberal dual personality. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on September 22, 2016, 08:44:14
I don't think he really has a choice.  If the gov says go here for what ever reason he must follow orders no ?
But he can always resign if he disagrees.  Do you doubt he is speaking honestly when he says the CAF is going somewhere where it can make a positive difference, or when he says he will give the ROE that are required?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Halifax Tar on September 22, 2016, 10:03:28
But he can always resign if he disagrees.  Do you doubt he is speaking honestly when he says the CAF is going somewhere where it can make a positive difference, or when he says he will give the ROE that are required?

While our current MND and CDS may be different I really don't expect our politicians or generals to "fall on their sword" if they feel something a foot is fishy.  Admiral Landymore's type haven't existed for some time.

I think he is honest when he speaks but I also think we as a nation, the CDS included, are not going into this with our eyes wide open.  This mission, IMHO, will go something like this:

1) Go in with rose colored glass, being sent/lead by the Liberals; 
2) Take some casualties, opposition to the mission rises;
3) The Liberal government falls, the Cons win government;
4) The Liberals, now sitting in opposition, then blame the Cons for the mission and the casualties it incurred; 
5) We will then pull out of the mission and as uniformed pers we will walk away wondering WTF just happened.

Remind you of anything from the past ? ;)

Too cynical perhaps ?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 22, 2016, 10:42:44
Quote
But chief of the defence staff Gen. Jonathan Vance said Wednesday that Canadian troops will be deployed as peacekeepers for no other reason than to help bring peace and stability to another part of the world.

Peacekeeping and bringing peace. We should probably concentrate on bringing peace to region in the first place before we try to keep the peace, no?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 22, 2016, 11:11:31
Peacekeeping and bringing peace. We should probably concentrate on bringing peace to region in the first place before we try to keep the peace, no?

So we will become importers/exporters, like Art Vanderlay, of Vanderlay industries? At least it will seem exciting if we say that we work there: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=vanderlay%20industries

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 22, 2016, 11:31:35
While our current MND and CDS may be different I really don't expect our politicians or generals to "fall on their sword" if they feel something a foot is fishy.  Admiral Landymore's type haven't existed for some time.

I think he is honest when he speaks but I also think we as a nation, the CDS included, are not going into this with our eyes wide open.  This mission, IMHO, will go something like this:

1) Go in with rose colored glass, being sent/lead by the Liberals; 
2) Take some casualties, opposition to the mission rises;
3) The Liberal government falls, the Cons win government;
4) The Liberals, now sitting in opposition, then blame the Cons for the mission and the casualties it incurred; 
5) We will then pull out of the mission and as uniformed pers we will walk away wondering WTF just happened.

Remind you of anything from the past ? ;)

Too cynical perhaps ?

I see that our Prime Minister is the most popular politician on the planet, according to his foreign affairs minister.  I believe that the young fellow should take full advantage of his popularity and continue his desire to serve mankind by taking over from Ban Ki Moon (who seems to be getting kind of snarky in any case).

I propose Justin Trudeau for Secretary-General.  Tomorrow.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lumber on September 22, 2016, 12:01:06
So we will become importers/exporters, like Art Vanderlay, of Vanderlay industries? At least it will seem exciting if we say that we work there: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=vanderlay%20industries

I was thinking this was a more apt comparison:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacekeepers_(Farscape) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacekeepers_(Farscape))
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on September 22, 2016, 12:39:44
I see that our Prime Minister is the most popular politician on the planet, according to his foreign affairs minister.  I believe that the young fellow should take full advantage of his popularity and continue his desire to serve mankind by taking over from Ban Ki Moon (who seems to be getting kind of snarky in any case).

I propose Justin Trudeau for Secretary-General.  Tomorrow.

His ego is insufficiently large for that job, although he does wear the cool European cut suits and shoes the job seems to demand. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on September 22, 2016, 15:01:07
Nobel peace prize inbound, for just being so likeable ( keep getting bothered by recurring images of Dion, a picture of JT and a chicken in a stall in a UN washroom.) [:(
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on September 22, 2016, 15:37:47
I'm so glad that Canada is back and we're here to help.  I'll sleep more soundly in my bed tonight and on subsequent nights, knowing this. (I'm sure :nod:)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 22, 2016, 15:43:14
Nobel peace prize inbound, for just being so likeable ( keep getting bothered by recurring images of Dion, a picture of JT and a chicken in a stall in a UN washroom.) [:(

Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize for 'not being George Bush'. Trudeau would qualify for similar reasons, wouldn't he? ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ueo on September 22, 2016, 15:52:34
Hey watch them chicken jokes!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: kratz on September 22, 2016, 17:02:01
Hey watch them chicken jokes!

There was no running with the chicken jokes.  [:p

I need some peanuts with this  :pop:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 22, 2016, 19:27:49
Hey watch them chicken jokes!

The New Yorker started it :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on September 22, 2016, 20:02:22
But he can always resign if he disagrees.  Do you doubt he is speaking honestly when he says the CAF is going somewhere where it can make a positive difference, or when he says he will give the ROE that are required?

Leadership 101: Never contradict your chain of command in front of your troops/publicly. Own their mission as your own mission. Gen Vance would be a poor leader if he let fly anything other than government policy, and he's not a poor leader. He'd also absolutely destroy the morale of the CAF members deploying if he disagreed with why we were going, and told them as such.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: cavalryman on September 22, 2016, 20:06:08
Hey watch them chicken jokes!
Only until it crosses the road.  After that it's fair game. >:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 24, 2016, 00:40:06
Leadership 101: Never contradict your chain of command in front of your troops/publicly. Own their mission as your own mission. Gen Vance would be a poor leader if he let fly anything other than government policy, and he's not a poor leader. He'd also absolutely destroy the morale of the CAF members deploying if he disagreed with why we were going, and told them as such.

Then again:

"A good soldier obeys orders without question ... and keeps his buttons bright." I always did both ... until I gradually found out that some orders are criminal nonsense. - Strome Galloway, The General Who Never Was, 1981
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on September 24, 2016, 23:27:27
More damning evidence that the entire idea of "Peacekeeping" or even "Peacemaking". "Peace Support Operations" and other such nostrums are dead on arrival. It is war over there, and the lessons, manpower and firepower that we *should* bring if we are there to make a real difference is a 1500 man battlegroup in the manner of Afghanistan (Given the logistical realities we will need a much bigger tail to support the battlegroup). I feel much more secure putting my name in for OP IMPACT (some positions have opened) since we know what we are going into and are equipped and have ROE's which reflect the situation. Maybe a "six pack" of CF-18s would make the job even easier....

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/09/23/malis-president-at-the-un-weve-still-got-a-colossal-jihadist-problem/

Quote
JIHADISM IN AFRICA
Mali’s President at the UN: We’ve Still Got a Colossal Jihadist Problem

This week at the UN General Assembly, Mali’s president was the bearer of bad news: the jihadists the French military crushed to much fanfare a few years back have returned with a vengeance, and they’re undermining a peace accord. Reuters:

Mali President Ibrahim Boubacar Keita warned the United Nations on Friday that the failure to fully implement a nationwide peace accord was helping al-Qaeda and Islamic State-affiliated groups spread their influence in the country.

U.N. peacekeepers are deployed across northern Mali to try to stabilize the vast region, which was occupied by separatist Tuareg rebels and al Qaeda-linked Islamist militants in 2012 before France intervened in 2013. Tit-for-tat violence between rival armed groups has distracted Mali from fighting Islamist militants and the country has become the deadliest place for U.N. peacekeepers to serve. […]

Keita said Islamist militants were using the slow implementation of peace accords to “manipulate” and “destroy” links between different ethnic groups in Mali.

A clash in the north this week between pro-government Gatia militia and the Tuareg separatist Coordination of Azawad Movements highlighted the fragility of a U.N.-backed deal signed last year between the government and northern armed groups meant to end a cycle of uprisings.

UN peacekeepers’ incentives are just as perverse as those of the condottieri, the Italian mercenaries Machiavelli once wrote off as “useless and dangerous.” Like the condottieri of old, UN peacekeepers are paid for an input measure—a fee per soldier—not for an output measure, such as actually keeping the peace. The UN reimburses peacekeeping at a rate of $1,332 per soldier per month, making peacekeeping a lucrative endeavor for major contributors like Bangladesh where soldiers are paid roughly 1/20th that amount. Well-paid, professional militaries like those of the U.S. and the U.K. commit far fewer forces to peacekeeping; for those they do contribute, the UN reimbursement does not come close to covering the cost.

Professional militaries have a difficult time implementing counter-insurgency strategy (COIN) effectively, so it’s no surprise that UN peacekeepers are struggling against the jihadist onslaught. As we’re seeing in South Sudan—where peacekeepers are turning a blind eye to mass rapes and otherwise failing to protect the civilians—the peacekeepers’ main objective is to avoid casualties, not to complete the mission.

Keeping ISIS and Al Qaeda at bay in Mali requires détente between two historically opposed forces: the Malian central government in Bamako and the nomadic Tuareg people, who fiercely defend their independence and cross Mali’s porous Saharan borders with ease. These “blue men of the desert” are known for their indigo turbans and their spirited resistance against central authorities—first the French and then the Malians. Even if the Malian state will never win the love the Tuareg, it must work to placate them and to isolate Islamist Tuareg militias like Ansar Dine, driving a wedge between apolitical Tuaregs and jihadist groups that might otherwise be inclined to join together against the state under the logic of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

Here’s the thing about terrorists in Mali: we’ll hear nothing about them and nothing about them and then suddenly everything will be about them. The geography of the Sahara makes it possible for groups to lie in wait, regroup, and plan their next moves. UN peacekeepers are useless against them. Jihadists in Mali don’t just complicate the regional security situation—they threaten European security as well. We ignore Mali’s terror problem at our peril.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 25, 2016, 01:02:27
Leadership 101: Never contradict your chain of command in front of your troops/publicly. Own their mission as your own mission. Gen Vance would be a poor leader if he let fly anything other than government policy, and he's not a poor leader. He'd also absolutely destroy the morale of the CAF members deploying if he disagreed with why we were going, and told them as such.

While I don't disagree, there are times where leaders and given absolutely retarded orders to 'own and champion'. Subordinates recognize how insane it is and look to the leader to protect them. When the leader owns the order they end up looking like idiots or yes men.  I can't help but feel like the MND is being put in this position and forced to speak political-talk and cheerlead the Africa mission when on the inside he realizes what a crap show it will be.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on September 25, 2016, 01:22:13
While I don't disagree, there are times where leaders and given absolutely retarded orders to 'own and champion'. Subordinates recognize how insane it is and look to the leader to protect them. When the leader owns the order they end up looking like idiots or yes men.  I can't help but feel like the MND is being put in this position and forced to speak political-talk and cheerlead the Africa mission when on the inside he realizes what a crap show it will be.

Absolutely. He's in a Catch-22. Disrespect the PM and lose his job, champion a mission with unclear or dubious end-state/objectives, or say no comment and get torched on both fronts. The PM and thrown the MND and CDS to the wolves, and is happy to do so. All this talk without substance just digs the hole deeper.

I have a feeling Vance might pull a Thibault on the way out, he's too protective of his troops not to.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 25, 2016, 03:41:46
More damning evidence that the entire idea of "Peacekeeping" or even "Peacemaking". "Peace Support Operations" and other such nostrums are dead on arrival. It is war over there, and the lessons, manpower and firepower that we *should* bring if we are there to make a real difference is a 1500 man battlegroup in the manner of Afghanistan (Given the logistical realities we will need a much bigger tail to support the battlegroup). I feel much more secure putting my name in for OP IMPACT (some positions have opened) since we know what we are going into and are equipped and have ROE's which reflect the situation. Maybe a "six pack" of CF-18s would make the job even easier....

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/09/23/malis-president-at-the-un-weve-still-got-a-colossal-jihadist-problem/
is it possible to muster up 1500 soldiers for that with obligations in Latvia,  Ukraine, and Iraq?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on September 25, 2016, 09:42:32
Absolutely. He's in a Catch-22. Disrespect the PM and lose his job, champion a mission with unclear or dubious end-state/objectives, or say no comment and get torched on both fronts. The PM and thrown the MND and CDS to the wolves, and is happy to do so. All this talk without substance just digs the hole deeper.

I have a feeling Vance might pull a Thibault on the way out, he's too protective of his troops not to.

However, those watching and a little in the know, will see this and it indeed will reflect more on the PM and his Government, than on the CDS.  People have to realize that "THE BUCK STOPS HERE" does not stop at the CDS, but at his political masters.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on September 25, 2016, 22:09:56
is it possible to muster up 1500 soldiers for that with obligations in Latvia,  Ukraine, and Iraq?

You know, or should know, the actual answer to that is "not a chance". Indeed, looking at the global situation, where is the reserve of manpower and resources to deal with the nuclear situation in the DPRK, Chinese aggression in the South China Sea, the drug war and resulting instability in Mexico or other issues which have real impact on Canada and Canadian interests?

OP Impact and OP REASSURANCE at least touch on Canadian interests, and *could* be better resourced, or at least some consolidation could take place between Poland Latvia and Western Ukraine for economy of effort. Drawing 650 troops out of the kitty for some nebulous purpose means they are not available for Iraq or Eastern Europe, much less any flashpoint which require some sort of Canadian response.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 26, 2016, 07:18:55
You know, or should know, the actual answer to that is "not a chance". Indeed, looking at the global situation, where is the reserve of manpower and resources to deal with the nuclear situation in the DPRK, Chinese aggression in the South China Sea, the drug war and resulting instability in Mexico or other issues which have real impact on Canada and Canadian interests?

OP Impact and OP REASSURANCE at least touch on Canadian interests, and *could* be better resourced, or at least some consolidation could take place between Poland Latvia and Western Ukraine for economy of effort. Drawing 650 troops out of the kitty for some nebulous purpose means they are not available for Iraq or Eastern Europe, much less any flashpoint which require some sort of Canadian response.

A good indication of the "tooth to tail" and funding problems we face daily.  We're in trouble, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MilEME09 on September 26, 2016, 15:46:54
A good indication of the "tooth to tail" and funding problems we face daily.  We're in trouble, I'm afraid.

Well maybe it's just coincidence but we recently saw more spots being allocated to the PRes for these ops which is telling me they are having a harder time keeping up
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MJP on September 26, 2016, 17:27:25
Well maybe it's just coincidence but we recently saw more spots being allocated to the PRes for these ops which is telling me they are having a harder time keeping up

In certain trades with specific skill sets yes.  However, a good deal of what gets pushed to the Res Force are the "anyone" can fill posns that aren't vital, allowing the Reg Force to fill the posns that have unique or in demand quals.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on September 26, 2016, 17:47:36
In certain trades with specific skill sets yes.  However, a good deal of what gets pushed to the Res Force are the "anyone" can fill posns that aren't vital, allowing the Reg Force to fill the posns that have unique or in demand quals.

You also used to see a lot of PRes folks on small missions, like UNMO or working for DMTC because the Reg Force just didn't care about filling them.  When I was in Jamaica in 2012 for six months with DMTC, 5 of the 8 folks there were Class B or C folks at DMTC.  The Regular Force just doesn't care about those jobs which is why it was so hard to get on Rotos for Op ATTENTION, the Congo, etc... If it ain't about pumping out Battlegroups for the Army or ATFs for the Air Force, as a Reg Force member, forget about it.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 27, 2016, 01:54:53
Meanwhile, in South Sudan....

The Disgraceful UN Peacekeeping Force

https://www.sofmag.com/the-disgraceful-un-peacekeeping-force/
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on September 27, 2016, 09:10:18
Meanwhile, in South Sudan....

The Disgraceful UN Peacekeeping Force

https://www.sofmag.com/the-disgraceful-un-peacekeeping-force/
a perfect example of how a well train professional army such as the CAF could have come in handy as opposed to troops their because their government gets to collect 1300 a month per soldier.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on September 27, 2016, 09:51:14
a perfect example of how a well train professional army such as the CAF could have come in handy as opposed to troops their because their government gets to collect 1300 a month per soldier.

There's a few ghosts in Srebrenica that may give you an argument. I would have to know the ROE these UN troops are operating under before I could fully comment. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on September 27, 2016, 09:52:37
a perfect example of how a well train professional army such as the CAF could have come in handy as opposed to troops their because their government gets to collect 1300 a month per soldier.
600 western troops won't change the culture of 14,000 third world troops paid less than we get for incidentals a day.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on September 27, 2016, 12:45:09
Well, so much for Columbia as a viable alternative to Africa. While Columbia is indeed far more relevant to Canada's National Interests, the idea that there is a peace deal between the Columbian government and FARC, and that we *could* go in on a real peacekeeping DDR mission turns out to be as illusionary as a peacekeeping mission in Africa:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/santos-sets-a-trap-for-colombians-1474841797

Quote
Santos Sets a Trap for Colombians
Even if voters approve the tainted bargain with narco-terrorists, it won’t bring peace.
By MARY ANASTASIA O’GRADY
Sept. 25, 2016 6:16 p.m. ET
27 COMMENTS

The paradox of Obama foreign policy is that its compromises with enemies of liberty in the interest of peace are leaving the world more violent, polarized and dangerous. This is especially true in Latin America.

On Oct. 2, Colombia will hold a plebiscite to ask the nation to approve or reject an Obama-backed agreement between the Colombian government and the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), designated by the State Department as a foreign terrorist organization. The deal gives the FARC amnesty for its war crimes, which include the recruitment of thousands of child soldiers, massacres of villages, political executions, bombings and kidnappings.

Under the agreement, negotiated and signed in Havana, the FARC will also get unelected seats in Congress and special welfare benefits. It will be given dozens of radio stations—so that it can disseminate its propaganda, a privilege no other political party has.

The agreement does not require the FARC to pay any financial reparations to its victims, even though the narco-terrorist kingpins have wealth estimated in the billions. Reparations will be paid by law-abiding citizens via sharp tax increases. The FARC says it will not disarm until it’s good and ready to. Meanwhile it will be given weapons and training to enforce the agreement.

What could possibly go wrong?

Ask Cubans who are enduring the fallout from another Obama legacy project: the 2014 decision to normalize relations with the military dictatorship and increase American economic engagement with the island. Repression in Cuba has since spiked, and Havana has become bolder in its joint activities with dangerous states like North Korea.

Venezuela also is more brutal since Mr. Obama first tried to warm relations with Hugo Chávez in 2009. More recently the State Department has spent months dithering over “dialogue” between the beleaguered opposition and the country’s Cuban-backed military regime, when the U.S. could have been building international pressure for a return to democracy.

Mr. Obama’s support for the Colombia-FARC deal completes his Latin trifecta. In 2009 Colombia was united against the FARC and celebrating its near-defeat on the battlefield led by President Álvaro Uribe.

Now the country is being torn apart by the signed agreement, which is practically a surrender, and by vicious government intimidation tactics designed to silence dissenters and jam the accord down the throats of Colombians. President Juan Manuel Santos is openly buying votes by promising local populations around the country that if they vote “yes” he will direct government funds their way. He may have enough electoral tricks up his sleeve to produce an official declaration of victory. But only a fool would believe that it could produce peace.

Colombians don’t trust Mr. Santos because he has trouble keeping his word, telling the truth and obeying the law. I have observed this firsthand.

I spoke to him by telephone in September 2012, just after media leaks had forced him to admit that he had been negotiating with the FARC in Cuba for almost a year. He had been promising publicly that he would never negotiate until the FARC disarmed.

In our phone conversation he said that any FARC agreement would be put to Colombians in a referendum. A referendum, as defined in Colombia, would have consisted of multiple questions to allow the electorate to reject aspects of the agreement.

But when the president realized that if Colombians were given that power over their own destiny, they would not accept FARC demands, he went back on his word. He announced he would instead hold a plebiscite with only one question for or against the totality of the agreement.

Given his widespread unpopularity, it was unlikely that Mr. Santos’s plebiscite would get the 50% turnout necessary to be valid. So he pulled another trick by getting Colombia’s Congress to lower the turnout threshold to 13%.

The constitutional court, which leans left, allowed all of that. But it also said that the plebiscite question could not be worded in terms of voting for or against peace. Mr. Santos responded by saying that he could ask the question however he pleases.

The agreement is 297 pages and it is not wild speculation to suggest that few Colombians will read it. Instead, they will be asked whether they “support the final agreement to end the conflict and the construction of a stable and lasting peace.” As former Colombian vice minister of justice Rafael Nieto has observed, this wording directly violates the high court’s order. It also avoids mentioning either the hated FARC or the unpopular Santos government. Perhaps most egregiously, it misleads the public about the prospects for peace because dissenters in FARC, its criminal partners in drug running and the other guerrilla group, ELN, will remain active.

The Castro crime family badly wants this deal, which may be the only way to explain why Mr. Obama is putting the U.S. seal of approval on it.

Write to O’Grady@wsj.com.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: mariomike on September 27, 2016, 13:23:35
Well, so much for Columbia as a viable alternative to Africa. While Columbia is indeed far more relevant to Canada's National Interests, the idea that there is a peace deal between the Columbian government and FARC,

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 29, 2016, 10:21:14
Another reminder (http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/matthew-fisher-the-kumbaya-thing-will-not-work-especially-in-africa-ex-soldier-warns-canadians) - highlights mine...
Quote
A soldier who served with Lt.-Gen. Roméo Dallaire during the Rwandan genocide is deeply worried the Trudeau government is about to embark on another UN peacekeeping quagmire in Africa that could have grave consequences for the mental health of troops sent there.

“We have historically made the same mistakes again and again,” says Stéphane Grenier, who founded Mental Health Innovations Consulting after retiring from the Canadian Forces four years ago as a lieutenant-colonel. His retirement followed deployments to Rwanda, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Kuwait, Lebanon and Haiti.

“History will repeat itself because people will not be properly prepared to go overseas,” Grenier predicted.

Compounding the problem in past doomed missions was that the UN did not provide strong support for troops in the field, he added.

“Is there any indication the UN is better equipped today to govern military forces trying to implement what are impossible mandates?” he asked. “I don’t think so. Until that is fixed, history will repeat itself.” ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on September 29, 2016, 10:44:19
And maybe not heading for Africa after all...

Quote
Africa peacekeeping mission is just an assumption, says country's top soldier

Canada's top soldier says an expectation that this country's military will be deploying to Africa is premature.

Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Jonathan Vance said an analysis of where the Armed Forces may go should there be a future deployment is still underway.

"Right now, I'll tell you, honestly, there is no such thing as an Africa mission," Vance told The Daily Gleaner in an interview. "It's been over reported based on peoples' own assessments in the media, in my view, that if you look at the world, it's going to be an African mission. It's an assumption."

It's been widely reported that Canada will commit up to 600 troops to at least one still-unannounced peacekeeping venture.

Speculation is high that it could be Africa, possibly Mali, a landlocked country located in the western part of the continent, where French peacekeepers are currently leading a United Nations mission.

There has been unrest in the country since French soldiers ended an al-Qaeda occupation in 2012, making the mission one of the most dangerous anywhere.

Aside from al-Qaeda, peacekeepers in the northern part of the country face challenges from other groups with an interest in the area.

"I can honestly tell you that we have not yet finished the analysis of where it is that we might go," Vance said. "We are working through a first principles assessment as to where we might best contribute, globally, in UN peace operations."

The Chief of Defence Staff did, however, acknowledge there are different parts of Africa ... that are potential candidates.

But stressed the ongoing evaluation will "ultimately determine where the military can best contribute, how and why."

Vance said any such missions have yet to be brought to government for decision making.

On the weekend, Vance told The Canadian Press that the military was not recommending any missions that would stretch it too thin. He also said he was comfortable the military could conduct a peacekeeping mission in Africa while operating in the Middle East and Latvia.

Vance said with regard to how fast the military could respond to a deployment request would depend on the nature of it.

"Some, we can move on fairly quickly, within weeks and months," he said. "Others would take significantly longer to get ready for."

Vance said Canada has military commitments in many areas of the world, including this country.

The Second Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment (2RCR) at Base Gagetown, meanwhile, is currently engaged in high readiness training.

In a recent interview, 2RCR commander Lt.-Col. Shane Murphy, said his soldiers will be the Canadian Army's next high readiness formation and will be set to answer the call by July 1.

"The battalion, as part of Task Force Tomahawk, will go through some of the best training the Canadian Army has to offer throughout the next year," Murphy said. "That entails a lot of collective training, working in a combined arms teams environment. The battalion will be working with armoured units, artillery units to form these combined arms packages and really develop our skill sets in that regard, from a collective training perspective."

The last deployment for 2RCR saw soldiers from the battalion travel to the Middle East to assist with Syrian refugee preparation for Canada.

Vance, who commanded 2RCR from 2001 to 2003, said the army's "force generation plan" and its production of "high readiness units" is intended to fill and support all missions that are underway with a look to the future.

Vance said the army commander generates a high readiness capability in anticipation of known missions while maintaining an ability to deal with the unknown.

"I don't know right now where 2RCR fits in his thinking about what forces he would assign to what mission."

But if 2RCR were to be called upon, Vance described the infantry battalion as an exceptionally talented unit with capabilities that are the best in the world.

He said it possesses the people, the equipment and the necessary training to operate the needed equipment effectively and efficiently.

"I am confident that any mission that is given to 2RCR - if they're given one - whether it's in Canada or external to Canada, will be done exceptionally well, as we have come to expect."

COPYRIGHT:  © 2016 Telegraph-Journal (New Brunswick) 

http://media.mil.ca/show-voir-eng.asp?URL=/clips/national/160929/f00471CD.htm
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on September 29, 2016, 10:47:52
And maybe not heading for Africa after all...

What's that line about things not being official until they've been officially denied?   >:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on September 29, 2016, 10:55:38
Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Jonathan Vance said an analysis of where the Armed Forces may go should there be a future deployment is  still underway.

.....Murphy, said his soldiers ....will be set to answer the call by July 1.
Timely responsiveness?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on September 29, 2016, 13:12:32
Quote
Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Jonathan Vance said an analysis of where the Armed Forces may go should there be a future deployment is still underway.

If we go anywhere at all.

US version.  "Yes, Mr. President.  As you requested, to meet the threat from those perfidious Canadians, we have prepared a current invasion plan.  We await your further instructions."

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 29, 2016, 20:26:24
MOAR speculation, (http://globalnews.ca/news/2972695/military-to-provide-air-transport-for-french-counter-terror-mission-in-africa/) this time from unnamed defence sources ...
Quote
The Canadian military is finalizing plans to send transport aircraft to support French counter-terrorism operations in northern Africa.

Defence officials say the planes would likely be used to transport French troops and equipment into the Sahel region, which includes Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Niger, Chad and Mali ...
This (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-abroad/support-mali.page) from the last time we did this (also attached in case link doesn't work).
:pop:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 29, 2016, 20:43:44
But the French op is not part of UN peacekeeping, peace support operations, whatever!
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/sahel/dossier-de-presentation-de-l-operation-barkhane/operation-barkhane

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on September 29, 2016, 23:08:39
But the French op is not part of UN peacekeeping, peace support operations, whatever!
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/sahel/dossier-de-presentation-de-l-operation-barkhane/operation-barkhane

Mark
Ottawa
IF that's what happens, I'm sure the Info-machine'll be up to the challenge  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on September 30, 2016, 11:40:31
MOAR speculation, (http://globalnews.ca/news/2972695/military-to-provide-air-transport-for-french-counter-terror-mission-in-africa/) this time from unnamed defence sources ...This (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-abroad/support-mali.page) from the last time we did this (also attached in case link doesn't work).
:pop:

the French are still waiting for their A400's. The C-17 and the C130J are the Tory gift that will keep giving for the next 25 years.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MilEME09 on September 30, 2016, 14:05:43
the French are still waiting for their A400's. The C-17 and the C130J are the Tory gift that will keep giving for the next 25 years.

which probably lead to someone saying "I wonder if Canada might want those mistrals?" which of course didn't happen any way but it was nice to be considered. From the defense point of view the cons seemed to trying to bring closer ties to France, perhaps giving european and particularly French companies a chance for canadian contracts.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PPCLI Guy on September 30, 2016, 14:33:02
You also used to see a lot of PRes folks on small missions, like UNMO or working for DMTC because the Reg Force just didn't care about filling them.  When I was in Jamaica in 2012 for six months with DMTC, 5 of the 8 folks there were Class B or C folks at DMTC.  The Regular Force just doesn't care about those jobs which is why it was so hard to get on Rotos for Op ATTENTION, the Congo, etc... If it ain't about pumping out Battlegroups for the Army or ATFs for the Air Force, as a Reg Force member, forget about it.

Same phenomena on Op IMPACT
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MJP on September 30, 2016, 21:56:24
Same phenomena on Op IMPACT

Not from a CSS perspective, Both ROTO 4 & 5 are out of the Reg Force hides.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Ostrozac on October 01, 2016, 08:20:04
Not from a CSS perspective, Both ROTO 4 & 5 are out of the Reg Force hides.

When I was on RSS duty a few years ago, reserve CSS was in bad shape, in terms of equipment, manning and training. I'm not sure that the Reserves being heavily used for CSS on Op Impact is an option.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 01, 2016, 08:37:07
Last time I was over to play in that sandbox, there was already WAY too much tail for the tooth in theatre;  it was becoming ''supporters supporting supporters".  Way too much bark, not enough bite.  If we need Res augmentation to keep IMPACT going, we are in pretty bad shape IMO.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 01, 2016, 08:56:57
Last time I was over to play in that sandbox, there was already WAY too much tail for the tooth in theatre;  it was becoming ''supporters supporting supporters".  Way too much bark, not enough bite.  If we need Res augmentation to keep IMPACT going, we are in pretty bad shape IMO.

We don't need Reserve Augmentation, our pers management is just that bad and we have blanket policies whereby ex-number of positions will be filled by Reservists. 

This is particularly true for General Service Officers.  I have a friend who left the Army two years ago and now works in Toronto.  He transferred to the Primary Reserve and immediately got a tour to Op IMPACT.  He is Int, you can't tell me we didn't have a Reg who could have filled his position?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on October 01, 2016, 12:03:11
which probably lead to someone saying "I wonder if Canada might want those mistrals?" which of course didn't happen any way but it was nice to be considered. From the defense point of view the cons seemed to trying to bring closer ties to France, perhaps giving european and particularly French companies a chance for canadian contracts.

Our existing airlift capability gives us a strategic capability that allows us to help or take part in operations globally, you can buy a lot of favors that way for little political costs, the Mistrals would have given us another way to be part of the international community and to build relationships. It would have also changed the way we do many things. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on October 01, 2016, 12:25:15
.... It would have also changed the way we do many things.

Silly boy.  [:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 01, 2016, 13:05:54
Matthew Fisher: Canada’s jilted partners languish as peacekeeping fetish feeds love affair with the UN

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/matthew-fisher-canadas-jilted-partners-languish-as-peacekeeping-fetish-feeds-love-affair-with-the-un
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on October 01, 2016, 14:48:30
Yup, increasing Jr. is acting more like Sr. in many ways (but without the experience and skills)... god help us all, we're really screwed.

Matthew Fisher: Canada’s jilted partners languish as peacekeeping fetish feeds love affair with the UN

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/matthew-fisher-canadas-jilted-partners-languish-as-peacekeeping-fetish-feeds-love-affair-with-the-un
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 01, 2016, 20:24:03
Yup, increasing Jr. is acting more like Sr. in many ways (but without the experience and skills)... god help us all, we're really screwed.
I was unaware that nations such as Germany, France,  czech republic, Spain were not a part of NATO.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on October 01, 2016, 20:48:04
I was unaware that nations such as Germany, France,  czech republic, Spain were not a part of NATO.

And that has what exactly to do with the son following the similar ideological paths as the father as indicated in the store?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 01, 2016, 21:37:11
And that has what exactly to do with the son following the similar ideological paths as the father as indicated in the store?


Quote
On NORAD, it looks as if Trudeau is determined to buy a new fighter jet that will not have the latest capabilities that the American and other NATO aircraft have. 

Quotes from the article you posted.

That's ok, to Matthew Fisher NATO=America.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on October 01, 2016, 21:55:34
Considering we spend more than Czech Republic and Spain combined per year on defense, and that France + Germany only equals 13% of what the US spends, I think its a safe assumption that we will spend a significant amount of time operating with US aircraft (especially for NORAD, which he directly related the statement to), than the combined air forces of Spain, Germany, France and Czech Republic.

We're way off topic now, although that article was pretty omnibus critical of all of the current government's defense/foreign policy decisions to date.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 01, 2016, 22:08:38
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=55170&&Cr=south%20sudan&&Cr1=#.V_Bdvsny2nM
South Sudan: 100,000 people trapped in Yei, UN refugee agency warns


So the UN is going to start up their tanks, issue frag orders to foot soldiers and roll out to go help those 100'000 people right?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 01, 2016, 22:55:34
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=55170&&Cr=south%20sudan&&Cr1=#.V_Bdvsny2nM
South Sudan: 100,000 people trapped in Yei, UN refugee agency warns


So the UN is going to start up their tanks, issue frag orders to foot soldiers and roll out to go help those 100'000 people right?

They haven't sent the letter yet telling  the bad people the UN will get very angry.....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 02, 2016, 00:14:21
Considering we spend more than Czech Republic and Spain combined per year on defense, and that France + Germany only equals 13% of what the US spends, I think its a safe assumption that we will spend a significant amount of time operating with US aircraft (especially for NORAD, which he directly related the statement to), than the combined air forces of Spain, Germany, France and Czech Republic.

We're way off topic now, although that article was pretty omnibus critical of all of the current government's defense/foreign policy decisions to date.
13 percent is significant when you consider half or more of NATO defense spending comes from the USA.

As for the political stuff I won't touch that because I've made a promise that I wouldn't.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on October 02, 2016, 14:02:44
Considering we spend more than Czech Republic and Spain combined per year on defense

Nice.   Spain has a decently equipped military...

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on October 02, 2016, 14:09:24
Nice.   Spain has a decently equipped military...

Yep, we definitely don't get a lot of bang for the buck, but we cover an exponential amount of area (infrastructure and tpt costs):

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=spain (http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=spain)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on October 06, 2016, 11:38:10
Considering we spend more than Czech Republic and Spain combined per year on defense, and that France + Germany only equals 13% of what the US spends, I think its a safe assumption that we will spend a significant amount of time operating with US aircraft (especially for NORAD, which he directly related the statement to), than the combined air forces of Spain, Germany, France and Czech Republic.

We're way off topic now, although that article was pretty omnibus critical of all of the current government's defense/foreign policy decisions to date.

Due to our size and spread, we will always spend more, but for less bang for the buck. If you were able to measure effectiveness per dollar, that would be a better metric, but good luck defining those values, as "effectiveness" for war fighting will be different than home defense, domestic response, etc
Title: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 08, 2016, 19:38:21
More tea leaves on where the deployment will be. Unfortunately, the government has lost the public affairs high ground, and the mission location will be leaked before they can get their crap together:

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/canada/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fjohn-ivison-canada-peacekeepers-seem-set-for-central-african-republic-deployment-before-end-of-year (http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/canada/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fjohn-ivison-canada-peacekeepers-seem-set-for-central-african-republic-deployment-before-end-of-year)
Title: Re: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: MCG on October 08, 2016, 20:27:54
I saw that yesterday.  The forecast is now two African missions with CAR being the larger.  Interesting.
Title: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 09, 2016, 01:15:47
More tea leaves on where the deployment will be. Unfortunately, the government has lost the public affairs high ground, and the mission location will be leaked before they can get their crap together:

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/canada/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fjohn-ivison-canada-peacekeepers-seem-set-for-central-african-republic-deployment-before-end-of-year (http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/canada/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fjohn-ivison-canada-peacekeepers-seem-set-for-central-african-republic-deployment-before-end-of-year)


'Greatest impact with the lowest level of risk'.

Now there's a bold mission statement for you .... meh :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on October 09, 2016, 03:00:39
All of the commitment and motivation of a Private Security Company managed by an accountant.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 09, 2016, 08:50:55
All of the commitment and motivation of a Private Security Company managed by an accountant.

With even less motivation, we don't even get mineral concessions at the end of it all  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on October 09, 2016, 12:47:35

With even less motivation, we don't even get mineral concessions at the end of it all  ;D

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: whiskey601 on October 12, 2016, 23:42:27
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

A report on peacekeeping in Africa written by none other than a certain Lt. Granatstein in 1966, marked "Secret", and then Unclass in 1986. The report concerns the Congo, but more importantly it details the utter confusion within the UN when they requested Canadian assistance, and the hand wringing and lip twisting of the Canadian government of the day- Mr. Diefenbaker. 

However, it appears that the Canadian army was quite prepared to do some fighting and probably actually wanted (suggested?) to send 2BN R22R to the Congo (since this was the apparent ready duty force at the particular point in time, with an embedded and quite functional signals capability). However, so much dithering went on and about what to do, what to send, what the troop limits should be etc., that one might think there is not much difference between then and now....including purchasing, at the last minute, expensive equipment not even requested (Caribou aircraft for example) while the rest of the forces equipment were reaching end of life cycle, and then forcing DND to absorb unexpectedly high costs for other urgently needed equipment within the existing defence budget (communications equipment).

One more thing, then as now, the forces were desperately short of Jimmies to such an extent they were considering sending RCN  personnel to assist in the jungle!

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/doc/cfhq/cfhq008.pdf

What is not stated in this report, because it was not within scope, is that the costs of the Avro Arrow program to the DND budget essentially bankrupted the rest of the armed forces at a time when there was a need for other more prudent capabilities such as transport aircraft, new armoured vehicles, trucks, secure radio, transport ships etc. At the time the Congo mission was starting, the 3 services were only just beginning to recover from the cost of the CF105 program.

   
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on October 13, 2016, 00:44:19
Ultimately we have lost before we even depart these shores: there is no effective (or any) Stratcom in place to set the stage. What are the reasons we are going? How is this being communicated to Canadians? Prospective governments in the area(s) we are to deploy? The people of the region? NGO's and IO's that operate there? Enemy forces like Boko Harum, ISIS etc?

Without that sort of clear messaging, we will be constantly reacting to the messages of the other side(s), and whatever sort of support we might have expected from Canadians, foreign governments and the people in theater will either be non existent or drain rapidly away as we start encountering difficulties and take casualties.

Of course the rather venal message that "We are willing to spend blood and treasure for a symbolic UN seat" probably isn't going to sell very well either here or in Africa...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 13, 2016, 01:20:16
Ultimately we have lost before we even depart these shores: there is no effective (or any) Stratcom in place to set the stage. What are the reasons we are going? How is this being communicated to Canadians? Prospective governments in the area(s) we are to deploy? The people of the region? NGO's and IO's that operate there? Enemy forces like Boko Harum, ISIS etc?

Without that sort of clear messaging, we will be constantly reacting to the messages of the other side(s), and whatever sort of support we might have expected from Canadians, foreign governments and the people in theater will either be non existent or drain rapidly away as we start encountering difficulties and take casualties.

Of course the rather venal message that "We are willing to spend blood and treasure for a symbolic UN seat" probably isn't going to sell very well either here or in Africa...
I suppose it isn't prudent to wait to hear what our mission is,  what our goals are before declaring it a failure.

Although in all fairness it probably is faster this way.

I should email the CDS and MND this. At the presser just state the mission goals, declare that we as a armed forces and country have already failed and just move straight to tent sweeping on garrison.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: QV on October 13, 2016, 09:50:14
I look forward to reading your posts after a few tours and more years on the job. Not meant as a slight, only that I believe your perspective is going to change. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: GAP on October 13, 2016, 11:18:24
I look forward to reading your posts after a few tours and more years on the job. Not meant as a slight, only that I believe your perspective is going to change.

 good post:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 13, 2016, 11:25:34
I look forward to reading your posts after a few tours and more years on the job. Not meant as a slight, only that I believe your perspective is going to change.
I also look forward to reading my post after a few tours.

If only because it would mean I've gone on a few tours.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on October 13, 2016, 11:30:40
I'm currently reading 'The Heroes of Jadotville"...after watching the movie "The Siege at Jadotville".  The movie is very simplistic and a bit off due to artistic license, however the books on the subject are pretty on target with how the UN military/civilian interphase worked in the 60's and how they haven't really fixed themselves since.  It's kind of like watching a brain damaged kid try to clap their hands and they continually miss.  The UN really hasn't sorted itself out since it's ops in Congo/Katanga, CAR, Somalia, Sudan/Dharfur, Rwanda and even the Balkans.  There are a lot of "Lessons Learned" from that battle that are being relearned frequently, since history has a habit of repeating itself when we don't actually pay attention to those lessons.  I'd be worried about some of those things repeating themselves under UN control yet again.  Fingers and toes crossed.

Altair - I went into my first tour much like you...despite the fact I'd like one more kick at the cat, I'd be really leery about one in Africa with Blue Helmet Drool, oops, Rule, since I really don't trust they have the wherewithal to do the right thing.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 13, 2016, 11:47:24
The Central African Republic is a tinder pot too.  The media has played up the fact that it's relatively benign atm but that can change in a heart beat. 

The South African Army fought pitched battles in 2013 against Seleka rebels in who wanted them out of the country, losing 13 soldiers and 27 wounded in the process.

It was so bad at one point the South African Parachute Battalion in CAR was almost overrun.  The South African Government had Gripens and Air Force jets on standby to conduct a fighting withdrawal out of the country; however, an agreement was reached before it was required.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on October 13, 2016, 12:06:47
A friend of mine was an MO on one of the tours in CAR in the late 90's...quietish, but she did have to go for her sidearm in a near mob scene.  Of course her Egyptian bodyguard only had a puppy pounder IIRC.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 13, 2016, 15:21:05
The Central African Republic is a tinder pot too.  The media has played up the fact that it's relatively benign atm but that can change in a heart beat. 

The South African Army fought pitched battles in 2013 against Seleka rebels in who wanted them out of the country, losing 13 soldiers and 27 wounded in the process.

It was so bad at one point the South African Parachute Battalion in CAR was almost overrun.  The South African Government had Gripens and Air Force jets on standby to conduct a fighting withdrawal out of the country; however, an agreement was reached before it was required.

Luckily, there's a good movie about operating in Africa that we could learn a lot from... :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kchkfqXxa0k
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on October 13, 2016, 22:05:36
Ahh yeas, one of my all time favorites...if you liked that, then The Siege at Jadotville is a good watch.  Almost as much back stabbing as The Wild Geese ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: JacobPayne17 on October 18, 2016, 15:13:55
I can't be the only one worried about sending our soldiers into such a messed up place with bright blue targets on their heads

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 18, 2016, 16:03:34
I can't be the only one worried about sending our soldiers into such a messed up place with bright blue targets on their heads

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

We all should be worried.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ArmyRick on October 18, 2016, 20:22:37
It seems too much "Situate the estimate"...
By that I mean the whole "Canada Back and we are going to do UN peaceKeeping!"
"Where?"
"NO idea, but we are back, lets find a suitable UN mission off the shelf and go!"

Title: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 19, 2016, 07:45:56
'Greatest impact with the lowest level of risk'.

Now there's a bold mission statement for you .... meh :)

Says lots right there doesn't it??
Title: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: Lightguns on October 19, 2016, 08:01:52
'Greatest impact with the lowest level of risk'.

Now there's a bold mission statement for you .... meh :)

Doable, 300 B52s dropping blankets and MREs from 20,000 on every population centre once a day.  ohhh.... and winter coats!!!!
Title: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: Chris Pook on October 19, 2016, 12:17:21
Doable, 300 B52s dropping blankets and MREs from 20,000 on every population centre once a day.  ohhh.... and winter coats!!!!

Have a care!  You wouldn't want to suffocate the darlings.
Title: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 19, 2016, 13:56:38
Have a care!  You wouldn't want to suffocate the darlings.

If you air drop large quantities out the back of a Herc on pallets you may be able to 'kill two birds with one MSP', as the loadies used to say:)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 20, 2016, 17:07:11
China to take big role at UN HQ running peacekeeping ops (major presence in Mali, South Sudan)? What does Canadian gov’t think?

Quote
Peacekeeping with Chinese Characteristics?
https://theglobalobservatory.org/2016/10/china-peacekeeping-dpko-south-sudan-mali/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 20, 2016, 18:47:40
China to take big role at UN HQ running peacekeeping ops (major presence in Mali, South Sudan)? What does Canadian gov’t think?

Mark
Ottawa

Finally, we'll get to sing a cheerful Peacekeeping song during brigade level calisthenics together every morning :)
Title: Re: The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)
Post by: GK .Dundas on October 20, 2016, 19:32:58
If you air drop large quantities out the back of a Herc on pallets you may be able to 'kill two birds with one MSP', as the loadies used to say:)
In his science fiction series Peace Company, Roland J Green postulates peace keeping with Starships. 
 The troops even have a phrase for it ,DFF or Death by Flying Fruit .                           
 The Ship not only provides transport but fire and logistic support  resupply being provide by either landing craft or   dropping supplies from the high orbitals . 
Picture a I tonne resupply container  dropped from 300 plus klicks with near pinpoint accuracy and then having the  braking rockets and parachutes fail .
 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on October 20, 2016, 22:47:31
China to take big role at UN HQ running peacekeeping ops (major presence in Mali, South Sudan)? What does Canadian gov’t think?

Mark
Ottawa

Given the current Prime Minister's openly expressed preference for the type of government China has, I'm sure he'll be just fine with this. And I'm sure anyone deployed with the Chinese on this sort of mision will discover they have dozens of new "friends" in the Chinese force willing to be with you 24/7, and extremely interested in everything you do, where you surf on the 'net and all your issued and non issued kit.....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 20, 2016, 23:00:47
Thucydides: "You might very well say that, I couldn't possibly comment".

Ontario:
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/?s=china++ontario

Plus media in Canada:
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/mark-collins-the-dragon-vs-the-press-covert-canada-overt-hong-kong/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on October 21, 2016, 01:16:18
Given the current Prime Minister's openly expressed preference for the type of government China has,

If only that were what he'd actually said, right?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 21, 2016, 02:09:04
JMT, you are correct. Here is the exact quote from 2013:

The Liberal leader was asked which nation he admired most. He responded: "There's a level of admiration I actually have for China. Their basic dictatorship is actually allowing them to turn their economy around on a dime."

Admiration is so much better than preference.

Yes, that is sarcasm.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on October 21, 2016, 07:49:19
JMT, you are correct. Here is the exact quote from 2013:

The Liberal leader was asked which nation he admired most. He responded: "There's a level of admiration I actually have for China. Their basic dictatorship is actually allowing them to turn their economy around on a dime."

Admiration is so much better than preference.

Yes, that is sarcasm.
And here's where that quote came from:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/justin-trudeau-s-foolish-china-remarks-spark-anger-1.2421351
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on October 21, 2016, 10:47:18
It was a poorly placed remark, to be sure (though he's not wrong - they can certainly get things done).
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on October 21, 2016, 10:59:04
It was a poorly placed remark, to be sure (though he's not wrong - they can certainly get things done).

Yup, they can harvest more human organs per year than the rest of the world combined and at the lowest cost........ Communist Dictatorships keeping expenses down since 1917!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on October 21, 2016, 11:01:56
Jmt, you just can't admit that Trudeau jr. can be stupid at times, can you?

Well, here is an example of the results you get with a Chinese type of dictatorship running an economy by "turning on a dime" and, to quote you, "get things done".

https://www.laowaicareer.com/blog/empty-chinese-cities/
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on October 21, 2016, 11:07:26
Yup, they can harvest more human organs per year than the rest of the world combined and at the lowest cost........ Communist Dictatorships keeping expenses down since 1917!
Since 1949 in China's case (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/special_report/1999/09/99/china_50/), anyway  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on October 21, 2016, 11:13:32
People wanted a world with less USA, now they are getting it, enjoy the dragon, if you say the right things, they will allow you to keep a small rice bowel.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 21, 2016, 11:25:08
It was a poorly placed remark, to be sure (though he's not wrong - they can certainly get things done).

If you're speaking of the suppression of anti communist groups, religion and the execution of people who may or may not be criminals you have a case.

Honestly....  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 21, 2016, 11:56:32
Hey, isn't there a politics thread you guys can take this to?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on October 21, 2016, 12:22:18
People wanted a world with less USA, now they are getting it, enjoy the dragon and the bear, if you say the right things, they will allow you to keep a small rice bowel.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on October 21, 2016, 13:17:41
Jmt, you just can't admit that Trudeau jr. can be stupid at times, can you?

Well, here is an example of the results you get with a Chinese type of dictatorship running an economy by "turning on a dime" and, to quote you, "get things done".

https://www.laowaicareer.com/blog/empty-chinese-cities/

Poorly placed is a nice way of staying stupid.  It doesn't mean he's wrong.

Being able to do what you want all the time (building empty cities) doesn't dispute that you can do it any time you want.  He's not wrong in that their system is efficient, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on October 21, 2016, 13:25:33
Poorly placed is a nice way of staying stupid.  It doesn't mean he's wrong.

Being able to do what you want all the time (building empty cities) doesn't dispute that you can do it any time you want.  He's not wrong in that their system is efficient, if nothing else.

I am thinking that building empty cities and efficient system may run toward the Oxymoronic.  All this commie admiration is creepy at best.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on October 21, 2016, 13:32:37
Building empty cities or otherwise making investments on the basis of personal feelings, paying off crony's or other, non market factors simply leads to waste, fraud, declining economic performance and eventually social and political turmoil. Sure, you can keep a lid on things, much like using a pressure cooker, or accept long term underperformance (ever wonder why Quebec, with an abundance of natural resources, educated population and diverse economy, is alway the caboose of Confederation rather than Canada's richest province?). F.A Hayek provides some good insights into why this is so.

At any rate, as both the earlier example upthread of a US support and UAV base in Niger and the more recent declaration of the Chinese becoming heavily involved in operations in Africa demonstrate, any reasons we may have had to go to Africa seem to be rapidly being overtaken by events. We run the risk of either being stranded (like the "Bungle in the Jungle", the government of that day was looking for a mission, but allies were not interested in either Africa or providing needed logistical support for the proposed Canadian mission), sidelined or being placed in a situation where the senior partners (be it France, the US or China) deem us to be useful, but in no way advancing any Canadian interest in the region.

Once again this comes down to not being able to articulate the "why" of this decision. Fighting ISIS and opposing Russian aggression in Europe have clear goals and support existing Canadian interests. It is possible to make arguments both "for" and "against" with clear premises and metrics to support your side of the argument. UN missions in Africa? Not so much.....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on October 21, 2016, 13:40:00
I am thinking that building empty cities and efficient system may run toward the Oxymoronic.  All this commie admiration is creepy at best.

And I can't figure out how anyone could state that building empty cities would be "efficient".  Would that also apply to bringing in tens of thousands of refugees, many of whom are uneducated and unskilled?   
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 21, 2016, 13:42:25
Poorly placed is a nice way of staying stupid.  It doesn't mean he's wrong.

Being able to do what you want all the time (building empty cities) doesn't dispute that you can do it any time you want.  He's not wrong in that their system is efficient, if nothing else.

Would you just please stop the Trudeau love?

There is nothing- NOTHING! To admire about a dictatorship that executes its people without due process and where the rule of law is really the just the whim of whomever is in charge.

I do not mind saying that you are a dangerous idiot of the highest order if you actually believe for a second that their form of dictatorship is preferable or superior or a better fit for Canada in anyway to our democratic (but admittedly mess at times) system of government that has evolved over 900 years.

I am no Liberal fan boy, but I admit and accept that they won the last election and that they are the duly and legally constituted government of Canada. Like most governments, they have done things that I both agree and disagree with. I will both criticize and applaud appropriately.

You, on the other hand, seem to be so blinded by Trudeau love that you cannot even acknowledge what was a patently obviously STUPID statement from an inexperienced politician.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 21, 2016, 13:48:04
 :trainwreck: :not-again:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on October 21, 2016, 13:53:24
And I can't figure out how anyone could state that building empty cities would be "efficient".  Would that also apply to bringing in tens of thousands of refugees, many of whom are uneducated and unskilled?

It is easy George.

Decisions were efficiently made.
Actions were efficiently taken.
Cities were efficiently built.

The decision makers were efficiently given the opportunity to discover just how badly they had screwed up.

Edit:  Or, in other terms.

2Lt: "Thank you, Warrant.  I think we will do it my way, in any case."
WO:"Yes, Sir!"

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on October 21, 2016, 14:34:57
It is easy George.

Decisions were efficiently made.
Actions were efficiently taken.
Cities were efficiently built.

Yes - that. 

Why is it so hard to understand what he meant?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 21, 2016, 14:49:31
Poorly placed is a nice way of staying stupid.  It doesn't mean he's wrong.

Being able to do what you want all the time (building empty cities) doesn't dispute that you can do it any time you want.  He's not wrong in that their system is efficient, if nothing else.

He's wrong. A government that willfully murders its people to hold power is fundamentally wrong. Or may you just don't get it.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: VinceW on October 21, 2016, 14:52:21
His daddy loved the communist dictatorships supporting countries like Cuba it's no surprise that another Turdeau loves them as well.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on October 21, 2016, 15:02:25
It is easy George.

Decisions were efficiently made.
Actions were efficiently taken.
Cities were efficiently built.

Yes - that. 

Why is it so hard to understand what he meant?

Really?

Look at that again.

Decisions were efficiently made.
Actions were efficiently taken.
Cities were efficiently built.

Building Ghost Towns Cities is not efficient.  It is not efficient spending of money.  It is not efficient use of materials.  It is not efficient use of land. 

I am sorry that you missed the sarcasm in that post.  It was to make light of the inefficiencies and incompetence of those who make those decisions, take those actions and create something that is neither needed nor useful.  It reeks of the incompetence we are currently seeing in handling of our refugee program; but more importantly in the handling of the subject that this thread is discussing:.....Deploying Canadian Troops overseas with the proper equipment, ROEs, etc.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 21, 2016, 15:14:27
Yes - that. 

Why is it so hard to understand what he meant?


Really?

Look at that again.

Decisions were efficiently made.
Actions were efficiently taken.
Cities were efficiently built.

Building Ghost Towns Cities is not efficient.  It is not efficient spending of money.  It is not efficient use of materials.  It is not efficient use of land. 

I am sorry that you missed the sarcasm in that post.  It was to make light of the inefficiencies and incompetence of those who make those decisions, take those actions and create something that is neither needed or useful.  It reeks of the incompetence we are currently seeing in handling of our refugee program; but more importantly in the handling of the subject that this thread is discussing:.....Deploying Canadian Troops overseas with the proper equipment, ROEs, etc.
Oh, is that the topic?

I thought it was the bash trudeau thread. [lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MARS on October 21, 2016, 15:18:37
Oh, is that the topic?

I thought it was the bash trudeau thread. [lol:

Perhaps people are just examining the 'root causes' of his beliefs, which naturally informs his decision making thought process. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on October 21, 2016, 15:19:16
Perhaps people are just examining the 'root causes' of his beliefs, which naturally informs his decision making thought process.

:rofl:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 21, 2016, 15:22:59
Perhaps people are just examining the 'root causes' of his beliefs, which naturally informs his decision making thought process.
There is a great thread to talk about root causes.

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,121572.1300.html<-------------------------
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on October 21, 2016, 15:35:24
Yes - that. 

Why is it so hard to understand what he meant?

My.  You have honed your excision skills to a fine edge.  Haven't you?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on October 21, 2016, 15:36:34
 :bravo:
Yes - that. 

Why is it so hard to understand what he meant?


Really?

Look at that again.

Decisions were efficiently made.
Actions were efficiently taken.
Cities were efficiently built.

Building Ghost Towns Cities is not efficient.  It is not efficient spending of money.  It is not efficient use of materials.  It is not efficient use of land. 

I am sorry that you missed the sarcasm in that post.  It was to make light of the inefficiencies and incompetence of those who make those decisions, take those actions and create something that is neither needed nor useful.  It reeks of the incompetence we are currently seeing in handling of our refugee program; but more importantly in the handling of the subject that this thread is discussing:.....Deploying Canadian Troops overseas with the proper equipment, ROEs, etc.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on October 21, 2016, 17:17:06
After reading the last two pages of posts, I am now awaiting the peacekeeping contingent from Mali to arrive on Canada's shores.... ;D

Things are seriously screwed up, however. The last O group at my unit the word was "we will deploy in the near future, but no mission location has been selected as of yet" (or words to that effect).

When I was teaching at the Battleschool, this sort of "efficiency" was usually cause to issue a red chit or "failed" assessment on a leadership course, since the candidate had situated the estimate and was now trying to bend reality to fit their preconceived notions (with notable lack of success).

Going back to my favourite flogging horse; What is the mission? What purpose are we trying to achieve? What resources are necessary to achieve these results? So far the answer the Government has given amount to "Canada's Back!" and "650 men".

The red chit is being mailed to 24 Sussex Drive.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 21, 2016, 17:30:35
After reading the last two pages of posts, I am now awaiting the peacekeeping contingent from Mali to arrive on Canada's shores.... ;D

Things are seriously screwed up, however. The last O group at my unit the word was "we will deploy in the near future, but no mission location has been selected as of yet" (or words to that effect).

When I was teaching at the Battleschool, this sort of "efficiency" was usually cause to issue a red chit or "failed" assessment on a leadership course, since the candidate had situated the estimate and was now trying to bend reality to fit their preconceived notions (with notable lack of success).

Going back to my favourite flogging horse; What is the mission? What purpose are we trying to achieve? What resources are necessary to achieve these results? So far the answer the Government has given amount to "Canada's Back!" and "650 men".

The red chit is being mailed to 24 Sussex Drive.
Two things.

Do you not believe that the CDS and MND are working on your questions, so that they can be presented as a whole, and not leaked out bit by bit? I would much rather have the whole plan than have them give us, the public, this plan piece by piece, on the hour.

Secondly, nobody is living at 24 Sussex.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on October 21, 2016, 21:33:07
Do you not believe that the CDS and MND are working on your questions, so that they can be presented as a whole, and not leaked out bit by bit? I would much rather have the whole plan than have them give us, the public, this plan piece by piece, on the hour.

We have been given exactly two pieces of information, one of which is relevant (650 men), without knowing what they apply to. The proper course of action is for the government to look at the questions (in fact, look at the primary question of Canada's national interest, and then see if other developments support or hinder the National Interest) before saying "We're sending 650 people to Africa for "peacekeeping", because 2016!

The Minister, and more appropriately the CDS and his staff were handed an "outcome" and told to make it happen. While this might be the way of things in more "efficient" governments, I think even you should see there are some issues in running the process in reverse. So of course *we* are now subjected to rampant speculation by the press and outsiders (I've been asked multiple times about where we're going and what are we going to do in Africa. To which I respond, the Government should be coming out with an announcement at some point), not to mention the rumour mill inside is spinning at warp speed.

Quote
Secondly, nobody is living at 24 Sussex.

The unintentionally hilarity  of this remark is worth Midpoints!

Edit to add: lets hope there is someone home after 2019
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on October 21, 2016, 22:53:50
Two things.

Do you not believe that the CDS and MND are working on your questions, so that they can be presented as a whole, and not leaked out bit by bit? I would much rather have the whole plan than have them give us, the public, this plan piece by piece, on the hour.

Secondly, nobody is living at 24 Sussex.

Of course, whatever the outcome of final destination is, Mr. Altair, your clear course of action is 2 x INMARSAT B-sets and a Mini-M for good measure....easy peasy!  See how easy peacekeeping is?

...ooops, I forgot to add a PRC-117G....just because...well, it's 2016.  :nod:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 21, 2016, 23:03:55
Of course, whatever the outcome of final destination is, Mr. Altair, your clear course of action is 2 x INMARSAT B-sets and a Mini-M for good measure....easy peasy!  See how easy peacekeeping is?

...ooops, I forgot to add a PRC-117G....just because...well, it's 2016.  :nod:

Regards
G2G

Now, now... we all know if we throw our hats in the ring of the 'Coalition of the Neo-Willing', Uncle Sam will kit us out with all the good toys... right?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 21, 2016, 23:08:40
Of course, whatever the outcome of final destination is, Mr. Altair, your clear course of action is 2 x INMARSAT B-sets and a Mini-M for good measure....easy peasy!  See how easy peacekeeping is?

...ooops, I forgot to add a PRC-117G....just because...well, it's 2016.  :nod:

Regards
G2G
make sure to email that to the CDS.

You make it seem so easy, wonder why he's taking so long. [lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 21, 2016, 23:16:12
We have been given exactly two pieces of information, one of which is relevant (650 men), without knowing what they apply to. The proper course of action is for the government to look at the questions (in fact, look at the primary question of Canada's national interest, and then see if other developments support or hinder the National Interest) before saying "We're sending 650 people to Africa for "peacekeeping", because 2016!

The Minister, and more appropriately the CDS and his staff were handed an "outcome" and told to make it happen. While this might be the way of things in more "efficient" governments, I think even you should see there are some issues in running the process in reverse. So of course *we* are now subjected to rampant speculation by the press and outsiders (I've been asked multiple times about where we're going and what are we going to do in Africa. To which I respond, the Government should be coming out with an announcement at some point), not to mention the rumour mill inside is spinning at warp speed.

The unintentionally hilarity  of this remark is worth Milpoints!
The announcement of 650 was simply to get into that UN peacekeeping conference. Nothing more, nothing less.

If they didn't need to make a commitment of forces to get in on that timeline I sincerely doubt they would have told the public even that tidbit of information.

As for being handed a outcome, we'll,  I'm no military genius but even I could tell we couldn't commit more than 6 or 7 hundred boots with all the other commitments currently on the go.

Ukraine

Iraq

Latvia

Kuwait

Ya, that 600 is pretty much all we can send especially if we aren't piggybacking off uncle Sam on a joint OP.

So they say what they are sending, get in on the peacekeeping conference and they fill us in on the mission in full when it's finalized.

As for 24 sussex, I have no idea how long the renovations are going to take. Probably going to cost about 20 million though.

Just direct your red chit to Rideau hall, addressed to the PM not the GG.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on October 22, 2016, 00:49:37
You are either deliberately being evasive or actually do not understand the point.

Problem: we need to do "X". Here are the constraints and restraints.
Solution: In order to do "x" we need to take the following actions using the following resources

Yes, 600 may be a real life constraint, so it isn't given in the opening statement as "we are preparing 650 men for a mission".

It comes at the end of the process: "After careful deliberation, in order to achieve these following aims, the GoC is prepared to commit "x" personnel to the mission".

The 650 figure was obviously chosen because it represents the lower boundary of a battlegroup and sounds big enough to be impressive to the Canadian Public when dusting off the peacekeeping myth. There is no particular reason to think 650 is too large, too small or sufficient since there hasn't been the analysis needed to determine what is actually to be done.

I'm so enthralled by this, in fact, that despite the fact I could volunteer and have a better than even chance to go on an African mission because of my specialty, I have preferred to put my name forward for OP IMPACT and OP REASSURANCE, since my time away from family and friends and possible sacrifice will at least be in support of the National Interest, and not for an apparent vanity project.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 22, 2016, 01:05:35
You are either deliberately being evasive or actually do not understand the point.

Problem: we need to do "X". Here are the constraints and restraints.
Solution: In order to do "x" we need to take the following actions using the following resources

Yes, 600 may be a real life constraint, so it isn't given in the opening statement as "we are preparing 650 men for a mission".

It comes at the end of the process: "After careful deliberation, in order to achieve these following aims, the GoC is prepared to commit "x" personnel to the mission".

The 650 figure was obviously chosen because it represents the lower boundary of a battlegroup and sounds big enough to be impressive to the Canadian Public when dusting off the peacekeeping myth. There is no particular reason to think 650 is too large, too small or sufficient since there hasn't been the analysis needed to determine what is actually to be done.

I'm so enthralled by this, in fact, that despite the fact I could volunteer and have a better than even chance to go on an African mission because of my specialty, I have preferred to put my name forward for OP IMPACT and OP REASSURANCE, since my time away from family and friends and possible sacrifice will at least be in support of the National Interest, and not for an apparent vanity project.
So really quickly, just so we are clear.

You would prefer that the government had said nothing, committed nothing, and missed out on the peacekeeping conference while preparing to send Canadian men and women on a peacekeeping mission?

That's what you're trying to say?

Because that's cool, I get that,proper procedure and all.

I just dont see the harm in committing a number in order to to be able to attend a conference on peacekeeping while preparing to send forces on a peacekeeping missing while hammering out the details for a full disclosure later on. The 600 was a given, I don't see the issue in just saying it.

You're entitled to your opinion though, and best of luck wherever you end up.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ArmyRick on October 22, 2016, 10:11:00
Altair,

Your entitled to your opinion as well.

Bottom line we don't "SITUATE THE ESTIMATE"

We are supposed to do the opposite.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on October 22, 2016, 12:34:21
Sending 600.

Cooks?

Mechanics?

Sanitary orderlies?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ModlrMike on October 22, 2016, 12:45:44
Answering the question before it's been asked is a recipe for failure. Where people's lives are at stake, it's courting disaster.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 22, 2016, 13:09:07
Sending 600.

Cooks?

Mechanics?

Sanitary orderlies?
Answering the question before it's been asked is a recipe for failure. Where people's lives are at stake, it's courting disaster.
Altair,

Your entitled to your opinion as well.

Bottom line we don't "SITUATE THE ESTIMATE"

We are supposed to do the opposite.


So the question I ask all of you is would you rather they said nothing, and didn't get included in the peacekeeping conference while preparing to send Canadian men and women on a peacekeeping mission?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ModlrMike on October 22, 2016, 13:23:38
At its most basic it should have gone like this:

Where are we needed?

What would you like us to do?

Analyzing......

Right, we can provide "this many" troops for "this task" in "this place".

Signaling a desire to participate would have gotten them to the conference. They didn't have to make a commitment without sufficient knowledge and forethought.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 22, 2016, 13:39:58
At its most basic it should have gone like this:

Where are we needed?

What would you like us to do?

Analyzing......

Right, we can provide "this many" troops for "this task" in "this place".

Signaling a desire to participate would have gotten them to the conference. They didn't have to make a commitment without sufficient knowledge and forethought.
I'm not sure that's true.

The announcement seemed rushed, they had very few to no details and in general the whole thing challenged Dions coalition video in terms of sloppiness.

Say what you want of this government but they usually have their media game on point.

The way they announced it signals to me they were under some pressure to get it done and quickly at that.

The only pressure they could have been feeling is not taking part in that conference on peacekeeping.

So if committing 650 soldiers for peacekeeping in a hastily planned announcement is what it took to punch their ticket to this conference then I don't see the harm. Especially if everyone and their mother knew Canada couldn't afford to send much more than that in the first place.

Meanwhile the planning just continues on as planned the way you described.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on October 22, 2016, 14:11:00
Bottom line we don't "SITUATE THE ESTIMATE"
But, it seems that is all anyone with an opinion wants to do.

We don't know where we are going or what we will do, but we can defend that the force package will be 600 to 650.  The ROE are not written, but we know the undefined mission will fail because of them.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 22, 2016, 14:16:57
But, it seems that is all anyone with an opinion wants to do.

We don't know where we are going or what we will do, but we can defend that the force package will be 600 to 650.  The ROE are not written, but we know the undefined mission will fail because of them.
We don't know.

Do you think the CDS and MND don't know?

I'm pretty sure they know. All we have been hearing are leaks from unnamed sources and we may be giving to much weight to that.

And when the plan is finalized, we will know, the public will know and then, maybe then, will be good time to judge whether the mission will fail?

For all we know 650 is support staff. How does that fail?

Those 650 could be combat troops guarding a single village. Hard to see that failing.

But we just don't know. So how can you say with confidence that we shall fail?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on October 22, 2016, 14:22:45
I'll put it to you differently. Canada was excluded from a conference by the major players fighting ISIS because the same government so eager to get into a "peacekeeping conference" withdrew the CF-18's from the fight. I have scrolled through the thread and somehow missed your outraged posts on how we were missing out because of that.

So what this mission really is "virtue signalling" on a grand scale. No actual reason has been given from the Grand Strategic level as to why we should be interested in traditional peacekeeping at all (and you can always scroll through the peacekeeping myth thread to see the catalogue of failure), much less a national interest perspective as to why "this" particular mission is in our National Interest. It has been constantly pointed out that the conditions for "peacekeeping" don't exist, resulting in a minor semantic change by government spokespeople.

Listen to the very experienced members on this board: this is the recipe for disaster.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 22, 2016, 14:39:29
I'll put it to you differently. Canada was excluded from a conference by the major players fighting ISIS because the same government so eager to get into a "peacekeeping conference" withdrew the CF-18's from the fight. I have scrolled through the thread and somehow missed your outraged posts on how we were missing out because of that.

So what this mission really is "virtue signalling" on a grand scale. No actual reason has been given from the Grand Strategic level as to why we should be interested in traditional peacekeeping at all (and you can always scroll through the peacekeeping myth thread to see the catalogue of failure), much less a national interest perspective as to why "this" particular mission is in our National Interest. It has been constantly pointed out that the conditions for "peacekeeping" don't exist, resulting in a minor semantic change by government spokespeople.

Listen to the very experienced members on this board: this is the recipe for disaster.
I must be naive in wanting to see what our actual mission is and how we plan to achieve it before writing it off as a failure.

What we do know.

650 soldiers going to Africa.

What we don't know

Where they are going.

Who is going.

What the mission is once they get there.

What the ROEs will be.

Who we will be working with.

Somehow with all that we don't know, the experienced members on this board have deemed this mission a failure?

BTW (and in know this will cost me at least a 1000 very important milpoints) experience =/= being right.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ModlrMike on October 22, 2016, 14:46:19

Somehow with all that we don't know, the experienced members on this board have deemed this mission a failure?

Most of us are saying that it's a failure of planning. It's far too early to judge mission success.

That being said... fail to plan, plan to fail.

BTW (and in know this will cost me at least a 1000 very important milpoints) experience =/= being right.

Perhaps, but lack of experience =/= being right is more often true.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 22, 2016, 15:07:35
Most of us are saying that it's a failure of planning. It's far too early to judge mission success.

That being said... fail to plan, plan to fail.
I'm not sure why people are assuming that there is a lack of planning going on by the CDS and MND. In fact, I was of the opinion the longer we don't hear about the plan the better because they are planning on getting this right
Quote
Perhaps, but lack of experience =/= being right is more often true.
You will notice I don't go around saying listen the inexperienced members,this mission will be a success.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on October 22, 2016, 16:38:23
You keep trotting out the CDS and MND as scapegoats to the government's situated estimate. I'm willing to bet the CDS has multiple plans, for multiple AOs, because even he doesn't know where we're going yet. His planners probably pulled together numbers on what we could contribute to a random mission, hence the 650 figure. Now they know its somewhere in Africa, and that the government is very risk adverse. So they plan around that.

Its glaringly obvious you've never had to plan something remotely complex before, and don't understand how its supposed to work. The Wng O is supposed to contain probable mission and location. We have neither other than "go peacekeep somewhere in Africa". Rumint is that they've even narrowed it down to a handful of countries, great. The CAF still can't do jack squat until we have an assigned mission and location. All we're doing by prolonging these little tidbits of info here and there, is employing staff officers at NDHQ to create tons of contingency plans, and change them over and over as more info gets released. 2 Bde is starting their R2HR, and they have no idea where and what they're supposed to train for because the government hasn't made up its mind. I'm sure the CDS and MND would love to have them mission focused, with tailored-training to ensure highest probability of mission success.

Seems like the government is a big fan of "if you wait to the last minute, it only takes a minute."
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 22, 2016, 17:31:15
You keep trotting out the CDS and MND as scapegoats to the government's situated estimate. I'm willing to bet the CDS has multiple plans, for multiple AOs, because even he doesn't know where we're going yet. His planners probably pulled together numbers on what we could contribute to a random mission, hence the 650 figure. Now they know its somewhere in Africa, and that the government is very risk adverse. So they plan around that.

Its glaringly obvious you've never had to plan something remotely complex before, and don't understand how its supposed to work. The Wng O is supposed to contain probable mission and location. We have neither other than "go peacekeep somewhere in Africa". Rumint is that they've even narrowed it down to a handful of countries, great. The CAF still can't do jack squat until we have an assigned mission and location. All we're doing by prolonging these little tidbits of info here and there, is employing staff officers at NDHQ to create tons of contingency plans, and change them over and over as more info gets released. 2 Bde is starting their R2HR, and they have no idea where and what they're supposed to train for because the government hasn't made up its mind. I'm sure the CDS and MND would love to have them mission focused, with tailored-training to ensure highest probability of mission success.

Seems like the government is a big fan of "if you wait to the last minute, it only takes a minute."
I'm not willing to judge a mission without  knowing for sure more than 650 soldiers are going to Africa and a few tidbits of rumint.

Like with the ROEs,  how about we wait and see what it's going to be before passing judgement?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on October 22, 2016, 17:44:32
Sorry Altair but there is more to be said.

You say that you know that the government has committed 650 "soldiers".  I asked what trades would be required. 

PRESUMABLY - big word that - presumably the 650 number came from some sense of what the government was willing/able to commit.

But how do you define ability?

Is it based on dollars? Because 650 Lt Colonels are going to cost a lot more than 650 Privates.

It it based on bodies? If so what type of bodies with what capabilities?  A single skill set? A combination?  A trained team?  Trained for what?  Do we already have some teams, with some training, that we can leverage?

Where will they be used?  How will they be used?  For how long?  What allies? What support from those allies?  Where are we in their priority of supply?  How reliable are they?

I sincerely hope that you are correct and that the MND has clearly informed the CDS of the Government's intentions.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on October 22, 2016, 18:38:18
I'm not willing to judge a mission with know for sure nothing more than 650 soldiers are going to Africa and a few tidbits of rumint.

Like with the ROEs,  how about we wait and see what it's going to be before passing judgement?

Well, you're coming close to identifying a couple of factors (650 & Africa), the missing (at least unacknowledged by the GoC, if there indeed is an actual mission defined militarily, even if withheld) information that would help.  Perhaps, Altair, you may be involved in the future in supporting planning activity and appreciate how much the lack of a defined clear objective, even if selected from a UN 'drop-down' list of missions, makes it extremely difficult for the military to focus on a well- (or at least reasonably-) defined mission.  Kind of makes the following Estimate of the Situation process turn into a bit of a branch-planning free-for-all with no clearly and explicitly defined direction and guidance from Government.

1.b, 1.c and 2.f are pretty hard to do in this case and make steps 3., 4. and 5. of the Estimate rather challenging...

1. Mission Analysis
     a. Assumptions
     b. Superior Commander's Intent
     c. Higher Commander's Mission and CONOPS
     d. Assigned Tasks
     e. Implied Tasks
     f. Limitions (Constraints and Restraints)
     g. Changes to the Situation
     h. Mission Statement (Essential Task, Unifying Purpose, Time Constraints)
     i. Points for Clarification
2. Consideration of the Factors
     a. Environment
     b. Enemy
     c. Own Troops
     d. Surprise and Security
     e. Time and Space
     f. Assessment of Tasks
3. Course of Action Development
     a. Enemy - Most likely, most dangerous
     b. Friendly
4. Decision
     a. COA decision and justification
5. Outline Plan
     a. Overlay
     b. Mission Statement
     c. CONOPS
     d. Groupings and Tasks
     e. Coordinating Instructions
     f. Service Support
     g. Command and Signals

As always, the military will do its best, then take the heat for when Team Sunny WaysTM says "Go!.....oh yeah, here..."

:2c:

G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on October 22, 2016, 19:46:54
I'm not willing to judge a mission without  knowing for sure more than 650 soldiers are going to Africa and a few tidbits of rumint.

Like with the ROEs,  how about we wait and see what it's going to be before passing judgement?

You actually admit there still is no mission and ROE's, but you still fail to see the point we are raising? There is literally nothing to judge, yet the Armed Forces must devote precious time and resources making contingency plans for....what, exactly....and for what purpose, exactly?

Look again at the planing process and tell me that based on the information you have (which is about the same people at all levels seem to have) what exactly we are going to do?

Announcing 650 up front was a big mistake, since it is setting expectations in multiple places. Do you think the GoC is going to let the media, the UN or the voting public jump on them for discovering they only needed to send 200 men? Or what about the realization that in order to achieve anything they need a 1500 man battlegroup, but only "budgeted" for 650? So now the Minister and CDS have the additional constraint to ensure the GoC's lack of thought is not exposed. And don't believe for a second that Dion or the PM are going to take any blame if things go south (see planning process above). I sincerely hope your parents (or anyone elses) do not receive a memorial cross because of this; no one deserves to pay that high of a cost for "virtue signalling".
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on October 22, 2016, 19:51:02
Announcing 650 up front was a big mistake, ........

A very NAIVE statement in fact.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 22, 2016, 20:04:15
You actually admit there still is no mission and ROE's, but you still fail to see the point we are raising? There is literally nothing to judge, yet the Armed Forces must devote precious time and resources making contingency plans for....what, exactly....and for what purpose, exactly?

Look again at the planing process and tell me that based on the information you have (which is about the same people at all levels seem to have) what exactly we are going to do?

Announcing 650 up front was a big mistake, since it is setting expectations in multiple places. Do you think the GoC is going to let the media, the UN or the voting public jump on them for discovering they only needed to send 200 men? Or what about the realization that in order to achieve anything they need a 1500 man battlegroup, but only "budgeted" for 650? So now the Minister and CDS have the additional constraint to ensure the GoC's lack of thought is not exposed. And don't believe for a second that Dion or the PM are going to take any blame if things go south (see planning process above). I sincerely hope your parents (or anyone elses) do not receive a memorial cross because of this; no one deserves to pay that high of a cost for "virtue signalling".
I doubt we as a country could support a battlegroup of 1500 soldiers on top of the operations in Iraq, Kuwait,  Ukraine, and the upcoming deployment to Latvia. Not without breaking the entire logistics system anyways.

But this conversation is going in circles. I don't agree, you don't agree. Shall we move on?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 23, 2016, 01:12:29
I doubt we as a country could support a battlegroup of 1500 soldiers on top of the operations in Iraq, Kuwait,  Ukraine, and the upcoming deployment to Latvia. Not without breaking the entire logistics system anyways.

But this conversation is going in circles. I don't agree, you don't agree. Shall we move on?

I've read your profile. You are in no position to demand that people "move on".

Maybe if you read some of the posts some of our more senior members have written you'd learn something. Like humility.

And as the esteemed Thuycides said.....I hope that any NOK does not receive a Memorial Cross from this yet to be determined mission. I have one....and what you have to go through to receive one is pure hell.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on October 23, 2016, 09:25:06
To be fair to Altair, I doubt his profile is up to date. He is not "just out of basic" anymore: That was in September 2010, so he now has six years under his belt.

I think that what he hasn't experienced yet, however, is politicians and NDHQ screwing him and his friends over to achieve their political (in all senses of the word) agenda. He may still believe that NDHQ means it when they say "We are here to help".

Youthful exuberance is a good thing, but in time, operational experience will knock in a few dents - or more - and he will transition to being a soldier. Let's just hope this experience doesn't come at too high a price.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 23, 2016, 09:34:21
I've read your profile. You are in no position to demand that people "move on".

Maybe if you read some of the posts some of our more senior members have written you'd learn something. Like humility.

And as the esteemed Thuycides said.....I hope that any NOK does not receive a Memorial Cross from this yet to be determined mission. I have one....and what you have to go through to receive one is pure hell.

I think the underlying issue here is that Altruism is never a good reason for us to "do something".  This is especially true when it comes to the use of military force.  What are Canada's interests in pursuing military operations in Africa? 

Is it securing a seat on the United Nations Security Council?  Is it some form of resource concessions?  Are we fighting the spread of Islamic Extremism?  What exactly are we gaining from going to Africa in the first place?

The first question is most certainly not a good reason to use the military, the second and third are better reasons.  Using the military for altruistic purposes in order to support some sort of self-righteous agenda is a poor use of military resources.  Women's Rights, Ethnic Cleansing, Genocide, Child Soldiers, etc... all terrible things but not worth stopping if the sole reason we are doing so is because of altruism.

The only thing such an operation will lead to is mission fatigue, poor morale within the ranks and ultimately, mission failure.  Wherever we send the military, we need to choose a side and have clearly defined objectives to ensure the side we choose comes out on top.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 23, 2016, 09:41:24
To be fair to Altair, I doubt his profile is up to date. He is not "just out of basic" anymore: That was in September 2010, so he now has six years under his belt.

I think that what he hasn't experienced yet, however, is politicians and NDHQ screwing him and his friends over to achieve their political (in all senses of the word) agenda. He may still believe that NDHQ means it when they say "We are here to help".

Youthful exuberance is a good thing, but in time, operational experience will knock in a few dents - or more - and he will transition to being a soldier. Let's just hope this experience doesn't come at too high a price.

Altair is therefore likely a great example of the perfect 'cannon fodder', which all of us were at one time or another. Which is exactly why the average age of front line troops should be around 25 years, with COs and RSMs - and their equivalent in other arms and services - topping out at the grand old age of about 30. Older, married, less fit, less fanatical (and more cynical) combat soldiers generally make for less effective combat formations, in one way or another.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on October 23, 2016, 09:54:02
For a possible change from the circular arguments... I recently attended two academic/practitioner events: the CDAI Graduate student Symposium (http://www.cdainstitute.ca/events/symposium) and the Peace First workshop (http://www.queensu.ca/cidp/peacefirstworkshop). 

The first was particularly interesting because one of the speakers was BGen Carignan, Army COS Ops.*  A recurring theme in her talk, as well as by thoughtful personnel involved with both events, kept coming back to justification -- for Canada's citizens and soldiers.

Yes, the more blatant justification appears little more than 'a UNSC seat,' which our CDS has already been obligated to refute and attempt to provide our government with some intellectual credibility, saying (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/peacekeeping-vance-not-political-1.3773216)  "I reject the notion that this is done simply for political reasons and putting troops in harm's way into risky areas for anything other than the true merits of the value of the use of military force" [sub-headline reads: "Jonathan Vance says he would never put troops in harms way to win UN Security Council seat"].

Sacrificing soldiers for 'it'll help with our next election' may be too crass for even die-hard Liberal supporters.

So the actual justification, which the government or people here may wish to debate, is 'to what ends' -- what effect  do we hope to achieve?  Since, in the absence of any official details it's all hypothetical, what could  Canada contribute to some potential mission that could support those effects/justifications?


I was busy typing while Humphrey Bogart was posting, but I actually think altruism may  be a valid reason for involvement; I'd like to see some evidence that it's an honestly-held rationale.


* Small words here for those who need them: she will be very  much involved with any deployment of army personnel.

[for some, tl;dr -- got it  :cheers:]
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 23, 2016, 10:29:35
For a possible change from the circular arguments... I recently attended two academic/practitioner events: the CDAI Graduate student Symposium (http://www.cdainstitute.ca/events/symposium) and the Peace First workshop (http://www.queensu.ca/cidp/peacefirstworkshop). 

The first was particularly interesting because one of the speakers was BGen Carignan, Army COS Ops.*  A recurring theme in her talk, as well as by thoughtful personnel involved with both events, kept coming back to justification -- for Canada's citizens and soldiers.

Yes, the more blatant justification appears little more than 'a UNSC seat,' which our CDS has already been obligated to refute and attempt to provide our government with some intellectual credibility, saying (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/peacekeeping-vance-not-political-1.3773216)  "I reject the notion that this is done simply for political reasons and putting troops in harm's way into risky areas for anything other than the true merits of the value of the use of military force" [sub-headline reads: "Jonathan Vance says he would never put troops in harms way to win UN Security Council seat"].

Sacrificing soldiers for 'it'll help with our next election' may be too crass for even die-hard Liberal supporters.

So the actual justification, which the government or people here may wish to debate, is 'to what ends' -- what effect  do we hope to achieve?  Since, in the absence of any official details it's all hypothetical, what could  Canada contribute to some potential mission that could support those effects/justifications?


I was busy typing while Humphrey Bogart was posting, but I actually think altruism may  be a valid reason for involvement; I'd like to see some evidence that it's an honestly-held rationale.


* Small words here for those who need them: she will be very  much involved with any deployment of army personnel.

[for some, tl;dr -- got it  :cheers:]

My problem with altruism Journeyman is that there is always another underlying motive, usually self-righteousness driven by religion or ideology. 

We, as privileged white Westerners think that the Africans can't govern themselves so we'll "go in there and show them how it's done!"

It's an inherently flawed way of doing business, our cultures are incompatible in many ways and like a teenage girl, no matter how many times we tell them they're stupid they will continue to repeat the same behaviours until they figure it out on their own. 



Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on October 23, 2016, 10:52:34
So let's pass on patrolling anywhere in Africa.  Let's provide SA technology; let's train police and judiciary; let's provide airlift or other forms of logistics support.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on October 23, 2016, 11:54:37
A problem that I have is simply the logistics of providing a unit of 650 bodies of any type on an ongoing basis.

If we accept a normal cycle then we need 5 units of 650 to maintain the pace indefinitely.

The only units we have 5 of are the infantry units and none of them have 650 effectives.

At best we only have three of most other units (armoured, combat support and service support) all of which operate with less then 650 effectives.

And for the really specialized stuff, like sigs, we have one.

Is this one unit, one time for one show?  Or is this intended to be an ongoing commitment?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on October 23, 2016, 12:19:04
I suggest the 650 is going to be a composite unit, or a collection of units, including an headquarters, a logistics element, a medical element and from whatever is left over, some troops to do whatever the role is. And of course, we will need people to run the Canadian element of the airhead.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on October 23, 2016, 12:25:00
Even at that, are we in a position to maintain a consistently staffed composite unit indefinitely?

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on October 23, 2016, 13:06:25
...I was busy typing while Humphrey Bogart was posting, but I actually think altruism may  be a valid reason for involvement; I'd like to see some evidence that it's an honestly-held rationale.

If altruism includes R2P, I'm game for that.  :nod:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on October 23, 2016, 14:12:30
So the actual justification, which the government or people here may wish to debate, is 'to what ends' -- what effect  do we hope to achieve?  Since, in the absence of any official details it's all hypothetical, what could  Canada contribute to some potential mission that could support those effects/justifications?

Commander's Intent and End State will be figured out later, Because its current year. The Why part of the 5Ws is always pesky.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 23, 2016, 14:36:33
In which Altair criticizes what has been done so far without a shred of understanding that he is doing so.

"What we do know.
650 soldiers going to Africa.
What we don't know [followed by a long list]"

If we "don't know" all those other things, how can we possibly know 650 soldiers must go to Africa?  Do you get it?

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on October 23, 2016, 18:00:40
Where polling has suggested a majority of Canadians are supportive of a new Peace Support mission, I suspect that support is based in altruism.  There has been much posted about the requirement for the government to justify this mission to the public.  If altruism is justification enough for Canadians to accept the employment of military force, then that is all the justification the politicians will be held to owe the electorate.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on October 23, 2016, 18:35:12
It's not to say that missions haven't been backwards engineered from the UN's (or NATO's for that matter) "pin count" game (let's just take 650 to be an arbitrary number that was agreed upon by the UN and Canada, either the UN's constraint, or Canada's restraint in the limitations section of the Estimate), but then one has to be prepared to form the achievable mission sets feasible with such a personnel count and feed that back to the UN, i.e. "With 650 pers in this composition, you [UN] get mission capabilities X, and Y, but notably not Z" and stick to our guns.  It's not a very principled way of doing things, but we appear to be operating a wee bit outside of the mission requirements taking the fore, envelope.

:2c:

G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 23, 2016, 19:15:57
In which Altair criticizes what has been done so far without a shred of understanding that he is doing so.

"What we do know.
650 soldiers going to Africa.
What we don't know [followed by a long list]"

If we "don't know" all those other things, how can we possibly know 650 soldiers must go to Africa?  Do you get it?
We, the general public, don't know.

I'm assuming there is a plan that hasn't been released yet of which the 650 is a small tidbit.

Just because we don't know all of the other things doesn't mean nobody knows the other things.

I guess this assumption could be wrong.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on October 23, 2016, 19:36:26
There's a lot of high up people that don't know, this is probably the best kept secret in the entire CAF, which is comical because it doesn't need to be.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on October 23, 2016, 20:12:15
Another tidbit (http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=55372#.WA1DM8n52AV):  South Sudan mission's looking for a new civvy boss:
Quote
The head of the United Nations peacekeeping operation in South Sudan, Ellen Margrethe Løj, has informed Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon that she will be stepping down at the end of November after more than two years of leading the Mission.

Ms. Løj was appointed by the Secretary-General as his Special Representative and head of the UN Mission in South Sudan (UNMISS) in July 2014 and assumed her duties in Juba in September 2014.

“Although the road ahead will be challenging, I remain hopeful that peace will prevail and that this young nation will finally live out its great promise. I look forward to the day where the girls and boys of South Sudan will never know the trauma of war again and will be able to actualize their full potential,” Ms. Løj said in a statement released today by the Mission.

According to the statement, she had planned to retire at the end of her current contract, which expired at the end of August this year, but chose to remain at the helm of the Mission in the wake of the July crisis until the situation could stabilize ...
Løj's statement attached.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 23, 2016, 22:59:59
We, the general public, don't know.

I'm assuming there is a plan that hasn't been released yet of which the 650 is a small tidbit.

Just because we don't know all of the other things doesn't mean nobody knows the other things.

I guess this assumption could be wrong.

I think you're letting your personal wants to get in the way of critical thinking.

The liberals threw out a number of 25'000 refugees to be brought to Canada and to hell with expert advice, they were going to bring in 25'000 refugees.  The Liberals once again threw out a number without any reason or planning.  They wanted a beefy number out in the news.

If the mission only calls for 200, we'll send 650 because the Liberals won't want to lose face and look like they made a mistake.
If the mission calls for 1600 we'll send 650 because the Liberals won't want to lose face and look like they made a mistake.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on October 24, 2016, 00:16:11
Or, 650 is the number that is thought to be sustainable, and was provided as a ceiling.

Sorry to interrupt the stupid liberals line.  you may return to your regularly scheduled hypothesizing.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 24, 2016, 00:51:56
Or, 650 is the number that is thought to be sustainable, and was provided as a ceiling.


With no thought to what the exact make up of that organization would be.  Brilliant.

Quote
Sorry to interrupt
I think you're being liberal with the credit you're giving yourself  ;)


*grammar
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on October 24, 2016, 00:57:49
With no thought to what the exactly make up of that organization would be.  Brilliant.

You actually have zero way of knowing that.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Good2Golf on October 24, 2016, 01:46:29
You actually have zero way of knowing that.

You demonstrated no knowledge of having a reasonable idea as to what an appropriate composition of the 650 pers formation could be, or have to be, in order to ensure sustainability, so Jarnhammer's supposition is probably fairly accurate.  650 ACCIS Techs?  Yeah, that'll be sustainable....

G2G
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on October 24, 2016, 02:36:28
You actually have zero way of knowing that.
Truthiness.

It works far better than facts.

Especially when there are no facts one way or another.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: YZT580 on October 24, 2016, 09:02:29
Truthiness.

It works far better than facts.

Especially when there are no facts one way or another.
That is the first statement I have read that truly makes sense.  Did your class by any chance include a kid who really wasn't very well liked, couldn't play ball, but who had parents who supplied him with all the paraphernalia just so he would be included at recess?  Pathetically, that sounds like Dion and Trudeau.  Hi coach, pick me, I have these 650 soldiers I can send your way.  It was an election throw-out.  No one had identified any requirement for Canadian troops at that time.  Now, instead of responding to a request we are searching desperately for a hole to fit our particular peg in.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Canuck_Jock on October 24, 2016, 16:19:40
Or, 650 is the number that is thought to be sustainable, and was provided as a ceiling.

Sorry to interrupt the stupid liberals line.  you may return to your regularly scheduled hypothesizing.

I think the answer is 650 Canadian service personnel deployed on a UN Peacekeeping mission.  The government/DND is now trying to formulate the question. 

Nothing against the Liberals, per se, just that they are pulling defence and security policy out of their arse...  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 24, 2016, 17:39:56
Now, instead of responding to a request we are searching desperately for a hole to fit our particular peg in.

In other words, a typical run ashore for a tipsy sailor? :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on October 24, 2016, 17:42:28
You demonstrated no knowledge of having a reasonable idea as to what an appropriate composition of the 650 pers formation could be, or have to be, in order to ensure sustainability, so Jarnhammer's supposition is probably fairly accurate.  650 ACCIS Techs?  Yeah, that'll be sustainable....

G2G

Since I'm not the one making any of those decisions - that doesn't follow.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 26, 2016, 13:58:18
Has VAC identified that we're going to see a big increase in op tempo, including up close to some shitty places en mass possibly, and they're going to get a lot more files across their desk? I wonder if they're be better prepared. Same goes for JPSU.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on October 27, 2016, 11:29:22
Now you be dreaming that anyone plans that far in advance. Any plan that crosses a fiscal year is doomed to failure or confusion in my experience. 650 is roughly a commitment of 2,000 people for an extended period of time, doable, but will suck up a lot of resources, particularly if no other significant nation joins in.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 28, 2016, 19:18:09
An interesting article from Deutsche Welle about the situation in the DRC.

Quote
DR Congo to remain 'unstable and violent'

A regional summit on peace and security in the DRC has just ended without major progress towards peace in eastern Congo. Congo expert Phil Clarke fears that more violence may follow.

A regional summit on peace and security in the Great Lakes region just ended in Angola's capital Luanda. The meeting, officially known as the High-Level Regional Oversight Mechanism for Peace, Security and Cooperation, focused on the long-running conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Burundi, the Central Africa Republic and South Sudan.

The summit tried to address why it has been so difficult for the DRC army to detect insurgents and restore security in the vast country. DW spoke to Phil Clarke, a lecturer in international politics at SOAS at the University of London, to try and shed light on the challenges and possible outcomes of the current crisis.

DW: Why has it been difficult for the DRC army to contain the security situation and to end the insurgency created by the various marauding rebel groups in the vast country?


Phil Clarke: This is a problem that the Congolese armed forces have faced as long as anyone can remember. They are basically unable to bring any kind of peace and security to the eastern provinces because they are under resourced and poorly trained. The army is often extremely corrupt and in the last ten or 12 years, the Congolese army itself has built some important economic and political relationships with a range of rebel groups in the east.

Opposition groups and observers have accused Kabila of delaying elections in order to overstay his mandate as president

Because the army is a partner of those rebel groups, it does not want to target and eradicate them so the army has become a part of the problem and not a part of the solution in eastern Congo.

Given the mistrust between the DRC, Rwanda and Burundi, how easy or difficult will it be for these countries to work together and achieve sustainable peace in the region?

One of the main reasons the regional actors have struggled to deal with the conflict situations in both Congo and Burundi is that the neighbors themselves are often also directly implicated in these conflicts. So Burundi accuses Rwanda of arming rebels who are now acting inside Burundi and over the past 15 years, Rwanda has backed various groups within eastern Congo.

Expecting Rwanda to play a stabilizing role in the neighboring states is of course a very far-fetched notion. Part of the reason for holding this UN Great Lakes Summit in Angola is to try and build more of a regional response to the conflicts in the Great Lakes.

It is very clear that both the United Nations (UN) and the African Union (AU) have failed in their efforts in eastern Congo. This summit is about trying to build a coherent position between the Great Lakes members themselves so that those regional actors might be able to bring pressure to bear on the conflict in the region. This is going to be a real challenge.

One of the issues the meeting addressed was the revamping of the UN mission in DRC (MONCUSO), which they argued has allowed rebels to thrive. Do you think MONCUSO has failed in its mandate?

MONCUSO has largely failed in its mandate to protect civilians ever since it came into eastern Congo 15 years ago. In recent times, it has found itself in a very difficult position in the sense that it can only act if it has the support of the Congolese military. But the Congolese military itself is one of the main perpetrators of crime. This has limited the UN's ability to protect civilians. This has been one of the key weakening factors of the mission.

Residents of eastern Congo have been living with insecurity for decades, even with the presence of UN peacekeepers

DRC is currently embroiled in a crisis prompted by President Joseph Kabila evident attempts to avoid stepping down when his mandate expires. How can DRC political leaders ensure that there is some semblance of peace in the country during the election period?

There is a real need for a sustained national dialogue in Congo but I also think that there is a key role for regional actors as well. This is where the government in Angola can play a central role. Of all the neighboring states, Angola is the one that has the greatest influence over Kabila's government. The economic ties between Angola and Congo are extremely strong as are the diplomatic ties. This is then the one country that could have an influence over Kabila in terms of scheduling elections quickly. 

Do you see peace returning to the DRC anytime soon?


I think it is difficult to be optimistic concerning the Congolese conflict at the moment. The picture has been very bleak for the last 12 months. As soon as it became clear that Kabila was not going to hold the elections on time, the number of protests in the country increased. In response there was a major government crackdown against protesters and against opposition leaders. Unfortunately that is a pattern that is likely to continue right up until these elections are actually held.

Every time there has been a large-scale protest in a major urban area in Congo, it has led to a major crackdown particularly by the Congolese police. This cycle is likely to continue. So I would predict a very unstable and very violent set of circumstances in Congo in the next six to 12 months. 

Phil Clarke is a lecturer in international politics at SOAS at the University of London.

Interview: Isaac Mugabi

 Article Link  (http://www.dw.com/en/dr-congo-to-remain-unstable-and-violent/a-36179207)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on November 03, 2016, 12:19:50
Another opening in the "sorta-kinda trying to keep some definition of peace in Africa" portfolio (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/11/kenya-withdraws-troops-mission-south-sudan-161102165506898.html) ...
Quote
Kenya withdraws troops from UN mission in South Sudan

Kenya has said it is withdrawing its troops from the United Nations mission in South Sudan, a day after Ban Ki-moon sacked (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/11/mission-south-sudan-failed-protect-civilians-161101170616631.html)* the Kenyan commander of peacekeeping forces in the country for failing to protect civilians.

In an angrily worded statement, the Kenyan ministry of foreign affairs said on Wednesday that it was "dismayed" by the UN secretary-general's decision to dismiss Lieutenant General Johnson Mogoa Kimani Ondieki.

Continued deployment of Kenyan troops in South Sudan "is no longer tenable", the ministry said, saying Kenya would "withdraw, immediately" its forces there.

Kenya has more than 1,000 troops deployed in South Sudan.

The ministry said the UN mission in the country, known as UNMISS, suffered from "systemic dysfunctionality" and that Ondieki was not to blame for violence that killed dozens of people.

"What is clear is that UNMISS suffers from fundamental structural and systemic dysfunctionality, which has severely hindered its ability to discharge its mandate since its inception," it said ...

* - While the U.N. is far from perfect, it appears even they can fire folks who aren't doing the assigned job ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 08, 2016, 13:35:40
One is amazed at basic things even our better media can get wrong (further links at original):

Quote
Canada and UN “Peace Operations”: Letter of Mine in Globe and Mail

November 8 in print edition–scroll down to the third letter at “War and peace” (links added):

'Your editorial recommends that Senegal be the focus for renewed peace operations by the Canadian military (Start In Senegal, For The New Peacekeeping, Nov. 4). But the government has made it clear that the point of such missions is to support UN-led peacekeeping operations; unfortunately, there is no such UN operation in Senegal to support. It seems much more probable that the government will commit some military personnel to the UN mission in Mali, with Senegal serving as a logistics hub to support both them and the UN mission more broadly.

The editorial also states that “a counterinsurgency in a chaotic, arid country such as Mali … would be outside the experience of most members of the Canadian Armed Forces.” That “arid country” sounds like Kandahar province in Afghanistan where thousands of Canadians fought a counterinsurgency against the Taliban from 2006 to 2011.

How soon we apparently forget.'
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/11/08/mark-collins-canada-and-un-peace-operations-letter-of-mine-in-globe-and-mail/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on November 08, 2016, 15:33:18
One is amazed at basic things even our better media can get wrong (further links at original):

Mark
Ottawa
And why should Senegal not having a mission be such a hinderance to Canada's participation?  You're thinking WAY too small, here ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 08, 2016, 16:10:58
milnews.ca: And a mere bagatelle that both Kandahar and northern Mali are arid indeed ;).

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 08, 2016, 16:45:49
But Globe did get Sufi Senegal right:
https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/posts/jennifer-lang-on-islam-in-senegal
http://www.muslimpopulation.com/africa/Senegal/inslam%20In%20Senegal.php

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on November 11, 2016, 08:56:20
Some more tea leaves to read (https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/11/11/canada-committed-to-three-year-deployment-in-africa.html) -- three years (assessed year-by-year) and more than one place ...
Quote
Canadian troops headed to Africa will operate in dangerous territory where peacekeepers have been killed, says Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan.

In an exclusive interview with the Star from Vancouver Sajjan said Canada has committed to a three-year deployment that will be reassessed each year to ensure it has an “enduring” impact.

It will be spread among a number of unspecified African countries, have a major focus on training and increasing “capacity” of the host nation as well as other countries’ troops, and build on existing social, economic and deradicalization programs on the ground.

“These missions, all of them, have the level of risk where peacekeepers have been hurt, they have been killed. And we’ve been looking at the risk factor in a very serious way,” said Sajjan.

Asked about his approach to deploying Canadian forces to conduct counter-insurgency operations — something the previous Conservative government was keen to avoid in Africa when it turned down requests to deploy soldiers to Congo and Mali — Sajjan said “some of it is going to be the reduction of radicalization in certain areas, in other parts it will be developing the capacity of the host nation.”

Just back from Mali, which hosts the deadliest United Nations mission in the world right now, Sajjan says it’s clear there are risks there. He said the same risks exist in the other African missions under consideration by the Liberal government.

But, he added, there are also risks to Canada of doing nothing to counter insurgent groups that are terrorizing populations and radicalizing new recruits, and suggested he and the Liberal government have made this clear to Canadians from “day one.”

“This is not the peacekeeping of the past — we need to look at what the challenges are of today and develop the peace operations for today’s challenges.”

After having travelled to the Democratic Republic of Congo, Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania and Ethiopia in late summer, and Senegal and Mali in the past week — Sajjan said he believes the UN mandate for and rules of engagement with hostile forces are “robust” enough to address the risks, particularly in Mali. The UN mission in Mali, known as MINUSMA, has seen 106 casualties since it was established in 2013, including 69 from “malicious acts.”

“One thing I did learn, the mandate for the mission is robust so there no concern that our troops would be limited in any way,” said Sajjan. “I had a very direct conversation with the political leadership of the UN and the force commander about that, and the safety of our troops is always paramount.”

( ... )

Sajjan stressed that a big part of the federal analysis underway — as he, two other federal ministers, and military and civilian fact-finders have travelled to Africa — is examining how Canada’s contribution of some 600 soldiers and up to 150 police can have a maximum impact, whether it’s through military training, building on economic development programs and opportunities like on the “agriculture side” in Mali, or combating sexual violence, including by UN peacekeeping troops.

“What we do provide will be enduring. We committed for three years, but the thinking is to have the impact, we always need to assess,” said Sajjan.

Asked how Canada avoids sending troops to be injured or killed in a mission where there is no end in sight, Sajjan stressed Canada’s intention is to effect measurable change.

“I wouldn’t want to put troops in any place where there is no end,” he said, suggesting the plan is to provide “innovative” solutions, to help UN or African Union troops be better able to do their jobs, “so we don’t have to look at a very long, protracted deployment that will not have an impact.” ...
:pop:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 11, 2016, 12:12:49
So a Schwerpunkt in Mali, logistics hub in Senegal, and several penny-packets elsewhere.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Sandyson on November 11, 2016, 15:32:55
Well if you want to park your prestigious rear in a Security Council seat you need as many votes as you can find at the lowest cost possible.  Now let me see...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on November 11, 2016, 17:46:42
So a Schwerpunkt in Mali, logistics hub in Senegal, and several penny-packets elsewhere.

Mark
Ottawa

It seems that Natynczyk's Operational Support Hub plan form 2010 might still be an active file.

Quote
In recent months Canada has signed an agreement to house soldiers and equipment in Kuwait, Jamaica and Germany and is negotiating to set up bases in Singapore, South Korea, Tanzania, Senegal and Kenya. According to a military briefing note obtained by Postmedia, the bases are designed to improve the Canadian Forces’ “ability to project combat power/security assistance and Canadian influence rapidly and flexibly anywhere in the world.” Publically, defense minister Peter MacKay called the base initiative part of expanding “our capability for expeditionary participation in international missions….We are big players in NATO.”

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,106855.msg1160736.html#msg1160736

And I apologise for supplying oxygen to the source but it was the first actual reference I could find.



Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Retired AF Guy on November 11, 2016, 19:46:31
Quote
It will be spread among a number of unspecified African countries, have a major focus on training and increasing “capacity” of the host nation as well as other countries’ troops, and build on existing social, economic and deradicalization programs on the ground.

Whatever happened to the old adage about "Concentration of Force" and not spreading your forces around?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 11, 2016, 20:22:05
Retired AF Guy:

Montgomery on "penny-packets" (scroll down):
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Px4-gf1zPwkC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=montgomery+%22penny+packets%22&source=bl&ots=pkzHxSLovy&sig=aluF7P4HtLjAPpoIqd8CpPwU4yY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWi6nK-KHQAhVJ94MKHVHiDYUQ6AEIMzAG#v=onepage&q=montgomery%20%22penny%20packets%22&f=false

But then we won't really be fighting (much), rather doing as much good in as many places as we can.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on November 12, 2016, 01:01:12
So if I understand this correctly the CAF will have troops scattered hither and yon.....so what's the plan if things go to crap?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 12, 2016, 01:56:35
So if I understand this correctly the CAF will have troops scattered hither and yon.....so what's the plan if things go to crap?

I think it's the modern way to diversify the blame risk.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on November 12, 2016, 07:41:58
Not to worry - decisions haven't been made yet (allegedly, anyway) (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/11/11/harjit-sajjan-africa-peacekeeping-mission-details_n_12916606.html) ...
Quote
Canada's defence minister says troops are headed to Africa for three years of dangerous peacekeeping missions, but his spokeswoman says cabinet hasn't made a decision yet.

Harjit Sajjan told The Toronto Star that Canada has “committed” to a three-year deployment in Africa that will be re-assessed each year to ensure it has an enduring impact.

Without specifying which countries Canadian forces and police are headed to, Sajjan said their UN missions would be focused on training, increasing local capacity, and the reduction of de-radicalization, the newspaper reported.

“These missions, all of them, have the level of risk where peacekeepers have been hurt, they have been killed. And we’ve been looking at the risk factor in a very serious way,” Sajjan told The Star in an interview published Friday.

However, Sajjan’s press secretary, Jordan Owens, told The Huffington Post Canada that the minister “got a little bit ahead of where we are as a government.

“Three years is part of the suite of options that will be considered, but this hasn't gone to Cabinet yet for a decision,” she wrote in an email ...
More :pop:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on November 12, 2016, 10:18:45
Not to worry - decisions haven't been made yet (allegedly, anyway)
How dare he actually keep people informed about current thinking  before it's been released as a fait accompli.  He'll never make it in Ottawa.   ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on November 12, 2016, 10:38:32
So if I understand this correctly the CAF will have troops scattered hither and yon.....so what's the plan if things go to crap?

An ASIC here, couple of CIMIC teams there, few HQs here, which all amounts to whole lot of nothing other than some good photo shoots and bragging rights at the gentlemens club in NY.

I'll be shocked if there is any sort of coherent structure to this come execution day. 

I'd love to see a Mach Inf Battalion in Mali with an Aviation TF but that would mean we actually cared about getting rid of the bad guys. 

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on November 12, 2016, 10:43:07
How dare he actually keep people informed about current thinking  before it's been released as a fait accompli.  He'll never make it in Ottawa.   ;D

Yes. He misunderstood as a result of his own background: When he was told to find missions in Africa, he took that as actual marching orders.  ;D

Hate to come down on the main stream medias (not!), but what I still don't see anywhere is the press asking the government: Why? What are you trying to accomplish? What Canadian interest is at stake? How will this benefit Canada?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on November 12, 2016, 14:10:13
Hate to come down on the main stream medias (not!), but what I still don't see anywhere is the press asking the government: Why? What are you trying to accomplish? What Canadian interest is at stake? How will this benefit Canada?
Why?  The answer was given in the election, and it would seem a plurality of voters bought it.  The government will deploy the military out of altruism.

It does not matter if we buy into that reasoning on this site.  That's just the way it is now in sunny ways Canada.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 12, 2016, 18:47:01
Yes. He misunderstood as a result of his own background: When he was told to find missions in Africa, he took that as actual marching orders.  ;D

Hate to come down on the main stream medias (not!), but what I still don't see anywhere is the press asking the government: Why? What are you trying to accomplish? What Canadian interest is at stake? How will this benefit Canada create more opportunities for selfies and yoga poses?

FTFY  :nod:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 12, 2016, 19:49:25
I like the idea of more HQ's!

Before we deploy we should also make everyone take a Gender Based Analyst + type package but make it about race. Maybe another about sexuality. And privilege.  :nod:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 13, 2016, 02:10:36
I like the idea of more HQ's!

Before we deploy we should also make everyone take a Gender Based Analyst + type package but make it about race. Maybe another about sexuality. And privilege.  :nod:

So we could call it the 'Champagne Socialist' primer then, right? :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_socialist

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ArmyVern on November 19, 2016, 11:26:33
I like the idea of more HQ's!

Before we deploy we should also make everyone take a Gender Based Analyst + type package but make it about race. Maybe another about sexuality. And privilege.  :nod:

A couple hours of my life that I will never get back.   :-\
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 19, 2016, 12:15:27
Looks like pressure on government actually to make a decision:

Quote
Canadian troops, helicopters urgently needed in war-torn Mali: top UN official
Atul Khare said he's looking for Canadian help during an interview at the Halifax International Security Forum Friday [Nov. 18].

Canada's troops and helicopters are urgently needed to protect and ferry peacekeepers at risk of ambush from Islamist militant forces as they travel through war-torn Mali, a top United Nations official says.

Atul Khare, the under secretary general of the UN's department of field support, said he's looking for Canadian help during an interview at the Halifax International Security Forum Friday.

"I think the most important contributions currently would be devoted to Mali," he said after meeting with the Canadian and United Kingdom defence ministers.

He specified there is a shortage of both armed helicopters and military utility helicopters, adding "these challenges are quite critical and they need to be overcome."

Khare said he's also looking for Canada to help with combat logistical companies that escort military convoys as they make perilous journeys to the north of the West African nation.

"The logistical convoys ... are frequently ambushed and we face many challenges there," he said.

With a string of recent deaths along the roadways of the nation, Khare said he's hoping Canada makes its decision quickly.

"The needs were yesterday. We are searching for them today because we have not yet fulfilled those needs," he said...
http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada/2016/11/18/canadian-troops-helicopters-urgently-needed-in-war-torn-mali-top-un-official.html

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ArmyVern on November 19, 2016, 12:32:54
Looks like pressure on government actually to make a decision:

Mark
Ottawa

Indeed; we serve in interesting times.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on November 19, 2016, 12:36:20
Wonder when the "Mister Dithers" handle gets resurrected?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on November 19, 2016, 18:06:39
I suggest the UN contact the Minister of Defence's Press Secretary.  She seems to know his own mind better than he does.

I thought it was only Team Blue that controlled the message.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ballz on November 19, 2016, 18:53:43
At risk of being a tinfoil hatter... I think the decision to go to Mali has long been made, and I feel like this "pressure" is staged...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 19, 2016, 19:12:22
At risk of being a tinfoil hatter... I think the decision to go to Mali has long been made, and I feel like this "pressure" is staged...

Ohhhh you're good  :nod:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MilEME09 on November 19, 2016, 20:28:59
soo we are suppose to secure Mali, run Combat Logistic patrols, CAS with Griffons, and transport with Chinooks, with a 600 personal contingent?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on November 19, 2016, 20:49:30
I thought it was only Team Blue that controlled the message.
Nobody likes to see it done until they're at the wheel, it seems ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on November 19, 2016, 21:26:31
CAS CCA with Griffons

CAS is seized-wing. CCA is "Close Combat Attack".
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 19, 2016, 21:44:58
soo we are suppose to secure Mali, run Combat Logistic patrols, CAS with Griffons, and transport with Chinooks, with a 600 personal contingent?

But we 'always punch above our weight', right? ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MilEME09 on November 19, 2016, 22:16:28
But we 'always punch above our weight', right? ;)

I feel like we are a Welterweight fighter about to go up against a Heavy Weight weight fighter
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 20, 2016, 20:37:59
I feel like we are a Welterweight fighter about to go up against a Heavy Weight weight fighter

With the 'PF Unicorn Team's ROE', I hope it won't be like a fighter with his hands tied behind his back up against a pack of hungry wolves.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on November 21, 2016, 11:42:12
If the Mission is to support the French in killing bad guys and rebuilding some of the infrastructure there, while the French handle the culture side, then it's doable. But it's a combat mission almost on par with Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on November 21, 2016, 12:32:19
I think that maybe our leaders....have visions of OPs dotting the landscape and that a blue beret will automatically make the bad people stop shooting.
Lets not forget to present arms to every UN Vehicle that passes by.....oh and 80 km to the north...the Kyrenia mountains!!

 [;)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on November 21, 2016, 12:53:47
If the Mission is to support the French in killing bad guys and rebuilding some of the infrastructure there, while the French handle the culture side, then it's doable. But it's a combat mission almost on par with Afghanistan.
I've heard no talk of supporting the French mission -- which wouldn't give us any points for that hypothetical UNSC seat -- but only adding on to the even worse-off UN mission.... whose troops are routinely attacked because they are deemed softer targets.  At the current rate, MINUSMA is well on its way to the dubious distinction of the most fatalities by belligerent attacks than any previous mission (yes, Somalia and Congo sucked massively, but the Jihadists in Mali are really upping their game).

Therefore, I'd argue that it'll be worse than Afghanistan, if only because:  a) there's even less  interest amongst the rest of the planet in African problems; and b) many Canadians still believe that this will be "peacekeeping," whereas it was eventually accepted that Afghanistan was a combat mission.  That belief, and the limited pers numbers, suggest that even with "robust ROEs" we won't have the full array of combat forces required -- we'll be bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 21, 2016, 14:14:56
I've heard no talk of supporting the French mission -- which wouldn't give us any points for that hypothetical UNSC seat -- but only adding on to the even worse-off UN mission.... whose troops are routinely attacked because they are deemed softer targets.  At the current rate, MINUSMA is well on its way to the dubious distinction of the most fatalities by belligerent attacks than any previous mission (yes, Somalia and Congo sucked massively, but the Jihadists in Mali are really upping their game).

Therefore, I'd argue that it'll be worse than Afghanistan, if only because:  a) there's even less  interest amongst the rest of the planet in African problems; and b) many Canadians still believe that this will be "peacekeeping," whereas it was eventually accepted that Afghanistan was a combat mission.  That belief, and the limited pers numbers, suggest that even with "robust ROEs" we won't have the full array of combat forces required -- we'll be bringing a knife to a gunfight.

When do we launch the "Canadian Armed Forces' Lives Matter" protests in Ottawa?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on November 21, 2016, 14:50:38
When do we launch the "Canadian Armed Forces' Lives Matter" protests in Ottawa?
I've asked some of my friends who are stupidly involved in BLM in Canada and I assure you the BLM movement actually couldn't care less about the Canadian military.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on November 21, 2016, 14:52:06
I've heard no talk of supporting the French mission -- which wouldn't give us any points for that hypothetical UNSC seat -- but only adding on to the even worse-off UN mission.... whose troops are routinely attacked because they are deemed softer targets.  At the current rate, MINUSMA is well on its way to the dubious distinction of the most fatalities by belligerent attacks than any previous mission (yes, Somalia and Congo sucked massively, but the Jihadists in Mali are really upping their game).

Therefore, I'd argue that it'll be worse than Afghanistan, if only because:  a) there's even less  interest amongst the rest of the planet in African problems; and b) many Canadians still believe that this will be "peacekeeping," whereas it was eventually accepted that Afghanistan was a combat mission.  That belief, and the limited pers numbers, suggest that even with "robust ROEs" we won't have the full array of combat forces required -- we'll be bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Any chance that 600 number rises if the situation on the ground warrants it?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on November 21, 2016, 14:53:25
I've asked some of my friends who are stupidly involved in BLM in Canada and I assure you the BLM movement actually couldn't care less about the Canadian military.

To be honest, how many actually couldn't care less about the BLM in Canada?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on November 21, 2016, 15:04:21
Any chance that 600 number rises if the situation on the ground warrants it?
Of course.

However, that would require changing "the narrative." What would cause such a sea change in government thinking? 

Ponder.  I'll wait.  ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jeffb on November 21, 2016, 15:10:08
Or we just have 400 people on "TAVs"....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on November 21, 2016, 15:26:28
To be honest, how many actually couldn't care less about the BLM in Canada?
In general? A lot.

BLM members specifically? Ish. The BLM doesn't exactly have leader such as the civil rights movement did in MLK, but a lot of their protests are organized on social media in a top down sort of fashion.

The top in BLM don't have their eyes on the Canadian military. We, the military, don't exactly have a history of killing Canadian/American Blacks and getting off without charges.

And, like a lot of feminist groups in the west, don't care about blacks/women in other countries.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on November 21, 2016, 15:30:40
Any chance that 600 number rises if the situation on the ground warrants it?

(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder517/500x/73340517.jpg)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on November 21, 2016, 15:35:12
In general? A lot.

BLM members specifically? Ish. The BLM doesn't exactly have leader such as the civil rights movement did in MLK, but a lot of their protests are organized on social media in a top down sort of fashion.

The top in BLM don't have their eyes on the Canadian military. We, the military, don't exactly have a history of killing Canadian/American Blacks and getting off without charges.

And, like a lot of feminist groups in the west, don't care about blacks/women in other countries.

Seriously.  You have to be sitting in the center of that small clique to think that it is a lot. 

Another point that you and the BLM ignore, is that our POLICE don't exactly have a history of killing Blacks, let alone getting off without charges.  That really makes them irrelevant here; just like all the Canadians in Canadian cities protesting "Trump is not our President".  Sad that we have such ignorant people running around in our Canadian society protesting what are in essence IRRELEVANT issues to Canadians.  Proof that our Education Systems are failing us.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on November 21, 2016, 15:41:22
Seriously.  You have to be sitting in the center of that small clique to think that it is a lot. 

Another point that you and the BLM ignore, is that our POLICE don't exactly have a history of killing Blacks, let alone getting off without charges.  That really makes them irrelevant here; just like all the Canadians in Canadian cities protesting "Trump is not our President".  Sad that we have such ignorant people running around in our Canadian society protesting what are in essence IRRELEVANT issues to Canadians.  Proof that our Education Systems are failing us.
Damn, Sorry. Meant a little. Don't know why I put a lot. Case of the Mondays.

As for Canadian Police, I agree. However, as with most things, American culture and ideas just kind of border hops with no need of a passport.

I have asked them what specific cases they are upset about in Canada and my friends don't seem to be able to point to many. There are not many. But they see what's happening in the states and they seem to want to act in solidarity.

I think it's stupid, but whatever. My main point is to say that as far as people in BLM are aware, nobody there has their sights on the CAF and what we do in Africa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on November 21, 2016, 15:57:33

I think it's stupid, but whatever. My main point is to say that as far as people in BLM are aware, nobody there has their sights on the CAF and what we do in Africa

With their concerns of things not relevant to Canada, perhaps this is the problem the Government is also having and why there is no defined mission set in stone these many months after an announcement was made. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 21, 2016, 16:32:33
I've asked some of my friends who are stupidly involved in BLM in Canada and I assure you the BLM movement actually couldn't care less about the Canadian military.

Today they don't because there is no benefit to it. There's no spotlight to be had.  The minute they sniff out a story that will give them a platform to garner media attention they will be all over it. BLM "stands in solidarity" with whoever they can if it means they can steal some air time.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 21, 2016, 17:31:31
With their concerns of things not relevant to Canada, perhaps this is the problem the Government is also having and why there is no defined mission set in stone these many months after an announcement was made.

I heard an interesting interview with a journalist on the CBC this morning. It's clear that our SOF in Iraq are 'kind of' engaged in a ground war there, but the general public aren't really aware of it right now and are being fed the 'trainers only' line by the government. Of course that would change if, gawd forbid, a chopper full crashed or something. It's basically a disingenuous stance by the government, IMHO, which the military will likely suffer for if there's any big dramas.

If we go into Mali, we'd better be clear about why we're there, and provide the right ROE and equipment, or everyone will be in the hurt locker, especially the troops on the ground.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on November 21, 2016, 18:36:15
Troops flying around in a helicopter does not equal offensive operations, unless that chopper went down at night well behind enemy front lines....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on November 21, 2016, 19:09:09
Troops flying around in a helicopter does not equal offensive operations, unless that chopper went down at night well behind enemy front lines....

Quote
Sea King Disaster

On the night of May 19th, (1982 Falklands) a tragedy took the lives of 18 SAS men, many experienced senior ranks. A Sea King helicopter from 846 NAS, was bringing back a mixture of D/G squadron SAS men and other personnel back from the islands to a Royal Navy ship. The helicopter was forced to circle until its landing spot became available. It was while the Sea King was orbiting that it crashed into the freezing water, probably the victim of a bird-strike into the engines. Out of 30 men onboard the helicopter, only 9 survived.

Daylight, own lines, administrative move.

Numerous gray incidents in Afghanistan from what I understand.



Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on November 22, 2016, 11:24:29
I heard an interesting interview with a journalist on the CBC this morning. It's clear that our SOF in Iraq are 'kind of' engaged in a ground war there, but the general public aren't really aware of it right now and are being fed the 'trainers only' line by the government. Of course that would change if, gawd forbid, a chopper full crashed or something. It's basically a disingenuous stance by the government, IMHO, which the military will likely suffer for if there's any big dramas.

If we go into Mali, we'd better be clear about why we're there, and provide the right ROE and equipment, or everyone will be in the hurt locker, especially the troops on the ground.

Hopefully not another Medak Pocket scenario
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MilEME09 on November 22, 2016, 15:52:10
Hopefully not another Medak Pocket scenario

Worse because the other side won't have an issue with shooting us, or planting IED's everywhere
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on November 22, 2016, 18:04:17
Just saw an interesting comment on the CBC responses to the F18 announcement:

"Well, at least he (Chretien) kept us out of that Iraq mess that Harper wanted us in."

Fast forward 15 years and where are the Liberals doling out the ammunition?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 22, 2016, 18:25:08
Worse because the other side won't have an issue with shooting us, or planting IED's everywhere

Or using suicide bombers against 'neutral' UN positions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/world/africa/mali-suicide-bomber-attacks-un-base.html?_r=0

http://www.thelocal.se/20161011/attempted-suicide-attack-on-swedish-troops-in-mali
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on November 22, 2016, 18:30:37
Worse because the other side won't have an issue with shooting us, or planting IED's everywhere
One side at Medak didn't have an issue shooting at us....our guys shot back.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on November 22, 2016, 21:15:23
One side at Medak didn't have an issue shooting at us....our guys shot back.

They weren't too upset if we ran over their mines either...

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on November 23, 2016, 11:10:28
I was thinking more of the political coverup of it and lack of acknowledgement.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on November 23, 2016, 11:44:51
I was thinking more of the political coverup of it and lack of acknowledgement.

It was a Liberal government at the time...who's to say it wouldn't/couldn't happen again?  My guess is an all out battle like Medak or Jadotville would have a hard time being covered up these days, but I'm sure they'd try given that such an activity (ie actively engaging baddies and handing their backsides to them) kinda flies in the face of Capt Happy's idea of peacekeeping/peace support ops.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on November 23, 2016, 11:45:53
Well, since we're now focusing on the more cheery aspects of this deployment.......

Consider also that three of the countries mentioned as potential deployment areas -- CAR, Mali, Senegal -- all have significant  numbers of child soldiers. 

- What will the media/populace view of Canadian troops having to shoot kids? 
- Regardless of self-defence or otherwise, what will the OSI impact be on our troops (in this case 'Moral Injury' rather than 'PTSD')?

With those thoughts in mind, I suggest people go to the UN site and wade through the bureaucratic-jargon to actually read those missions' mandates -- while there are some that seem valid (eg - protecting civilians), there are a couple (eg - protecting heritage sites), that I think are total BS. 

Mind you, even those reasons have not been formally raised as justification, which has so far has been limited to: a) help Canada's bid for a UNSC seat; and b) get at least one army.ca member a bit of coloured ribbon for DEU -- both of which are   ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on November 23, 2016, 11:58:44
Well, since we're now focusing on the more cheery aspects of this deployment.......

Consider also that three of the countries mentioned as potential deployment areas -- CAR, Mali, Senegal -- all have significant  numbers of child soldiers. 

- What will the media/populace view of Canadian troops having to shoot kids? 
- Regardless of self-defence or otherwise, what will the OSI impact be on our troops (in this case 'Moral Injury' rather than 'PTSD')?

With those thoughts in mind, I suggest people go to the UN site and wade through the bureaucratic-jargon to actually read those missions' mandates -- while there are some that seem valid (eg - protecting civilians), there are a couple (eg - protecting heritage sites), that I think are total BS. 

Mind you, even those reasons have not been formally raised as justification, which has so far has been limited to: a) help Canada's bid for a UNSC seat; and b) get at least one army.ca member a bit of coloured ribbon for DEU -- both of which are   ::)

Our own elected members are still trying to fry the Military police over Afghan detainees.  I can just imagine the outcry the first time some poor trigger puller offs a child soldier to save his own life and CBC features 300 redundant stories complete with blurry video of the bodies......  Don't expect a single minute of political defense from the Trudeau for doing the right thing. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 23, 2016, 12:15:33
I might still be naive or something, but I'm going to give both the MND and CDS the benefit of the doubt going into this.  I don't see either of them as  post-Somalia Gen Boyle types and they both have BTDT t-shirts.   
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on November 23, 2016, 12:35:41
Both Honourable people in large swamp of less than honourable types who don't care.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on November 23, 2016, 14:12:10
I might still be naive or something, but I'm going to give both the MND and CDS the benefit of the doubt going into this.  I don't see either of them as  post-Somalia Gen Boyle types and they both have BTDT t-shirts.

The problem in the end is the person that actually tells those two how high and far to jump...

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on November 23, 2016, 16:42:15
Our own elected members are still trying to fry the Military police over Afghan detainees.  I can just imagine the outcry the first time some poor trigger puller offs a child soldier to save his own life and CBC features 300 redundant stories complete with blurry video of the bodies......  Don't expect a single minute of political defense from the Trudeau for doing the right thing.

Simple.  Issue everyone with helmet-cams like the police.   ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 24, 2016, 00:26:39
The problem in the end is the person that actually tells those two how high and far to jump...

MM

Agreed.  I was very specific in my wording.   :nod:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Ostrozac on November 24, 2016, 02:57:00
It was a Liberal government at the time.

The Medak Pocket battle occurred while Kim Campbell was Prime Minister. She was a Progressive Conservative.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on November 24, 2016, 07:48:21
And while everyone's looking at and ranting about the bright shiny flying things (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fighter-jet-purchase-announcement-1.3862210), lookit what the Info-machine cranked out earlier this week ...

"The CAF conduct airlift operations in support of French operations in West Africa and the Sahel region" (http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,79766.msg1465132.html#msg1465132)

Welcome, Op FREQUENCE (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-abroad-current/op-frequence.page) -- let the "Canada being back" begin ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on November 24, 2016, 07:57:33
The Medak Pocket battle occurred while Kim Campbell was Prime Minister. She was a Progressive Conservative.

Medak Pocket battle occurred in September 1993. The unimpressive Kim Campbell government was defeated on 25 October 1993.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on November 24, 2016, 08:24:19
Both Honourable people in large swamp of less than honourable types who don't understand or care.
:nod:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on November 24, 2016, 08:26:21
The Medak Pocket battle occurred while Kim Campbell was Prime Minister. She was a Progressive Conservative.

Progressive, yeah...conservative.....never.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on November 24, 2016, 11:29:01
The Medak Pocket battle occurred while Kim Campbell was Prime Minister. She was a Progressive Conservative.

That was such a short lived government I forgot about her...and M. Chretien was in there not long thereafter, continuing the cover up to ensure Canada stayed put in The FRY for some time to come - didn't want the image of Peaceful Peacekeeping" to get tarnished too much.

Thank you for correcting me on that.

MM

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on December 02, 2016, 06:54:40
One step closer (https://ipolitics.ca/2016/12/01/military-setting-rules-for-coping-with-child-soldiers-ahead-of-africa-mission/) ...
Quote
The military is about to sign off on a set of guidelines for Canadian soldiers on what to do when they encounter child soldiers in the field — a move one expert says would be the first of its kind in the world.

While Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan is widely expected to unveil Canada’s pending contribution to UN peace support operations in Africa before Parliament rises for winter break on December 16, the past year has seen the military quietly ramping up its strategy for training soldiers on what to do when they encounter child soldiers, laying out their responsibilities under international and military law.

“We’re well aware we’re going to encounter this,” said one senior military source. “When that happens, our troops go through the spectrum. If someone was walking towards you slowly, you’d have time to employ possible several options to try and deal with the problem.

“But if someone is running at you from a fairly short distance, at some point the bottom line is our soldiers always have the right to defend themselves. It doesn’t matter the weapon, the context or who the attacker is. And it sounds maybe to the uninitiated jaded that our soldiers could maybe use deadly force against a child if the child was about to kill them, but the bottom line is if we didn’t do that, our opponents could use that tactic all the time.”

The instructions are currently in draft form but will be finalized shortly and will reflect input from the Romeo Dallaire Child Soldier Initiative — input which stresses the need to remember that child soldiers are children first.

“We’ve been working with the Canadian Armed Forces over the last year and a half to make this point really clear and we’ve had good support from the Minister of National Defence and from the chief of defence staff,” said Shelly Whitman, executive director of the Child Soldier Initiative, a Dalhousie University-based NGO that works to eliminate the use of armed children in warfare.

“We’ve been doing presentations with them, working through with them the doctrine. They have a draft doctrine note that they have put together on this, and they would be the first country in the world that would have doctrine on how to encounter and interact with child soldiers.” ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Cdn Blackshirt on December 02, 2016, 09:07:37
Not sure who initiated the writing of that child soldier guideline, but good job guys. 

 :salute:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 02, 2016, 10:22:29
Not sure who initiated the writing of that child soldier guideline, but good job guys. 

 :salute:

Just the Christmas present I was hoping for: formal direction on when it was OK to shoot kids.

I'm sure that the difference in relative risk between a 'walking armed child' and a 'running armed child' or 'children throwing petrol bombs and pushing a small car off the top of a building onto my patrol' will become more apparent on the battlefield, and the CDS and judge will back me up to the hilt.  :sarcasm:

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on December 02, 2016, 11:56:04
  :sarcasm:
Well, since you started it.......   ;)

The article says Canadian troops' right of self defence authorizes deadly force, even against children... coupled with a "Dalhousie University-based NGO that works to eliminate the use of armed children in warfare."  I gather they agree on the end-state, but differ on means.    ;D  (again, he started it)


However....
The instructions "will reflect input from the Romeo Dallaire Child Soldier Initiative — input which stresses the need to remember that child soldiers are children first."  This is the part that's troubling; I've no doubt that they  will get more than their share of sound-bites when African children start getting themselves killed -- Ottawa chair warmers focused on their age, and probably racism....not the fact that they're shooting at Canadian troops who were sent there to help. I also imagine backing from the sunny days camp will be particularly absent.    ::)

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 02, 2016, 12:32:15
Well, since you started it.......   ;)

The article says Canadian troops' right of self defence authorizes deadly force, even against children... coupled with a "Dalhousie University-based NGO that works to eliminate the use of armed children in warfare."  I gather they agree on the end-state, but differ on means.    ;D  (again, he started it)


However....
The instructions "will reflect input from the Romeo Dallaire Child Soldier Initiative — input which stresses the need to remember that child soldiers are children first."  This is the part that's troubling; I've no doubt that they  will get more than their share of sound-bites when African children start getting themselves killed -- Ottawa chair warmers focused on their age, and probably racism....not the fact that they're shooting at Canadian troops who were sent there to help. I also imagine backing from the sunny days camp will be particularly absent.    ::)

I just find it bizarre, unrealistic and dangerous to introduce this kind of PC hogwash into the RoE. What's next? Various lines that include other disadvantaged/ minority groups?

The current RoE seem robust enough to handle most situations already, and determining if an armed opponent is under the age of 18 before I pull the trigger will definitely be 'tricky', unless I'm provided with some kind of DNA sensor that gives me the age of the bad guy before I can slot him/ her in a certain manner, or not.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on December 02, 2016, 13:45:42
If a child soldier is shooting at Canadian soldiers then the soldiers should get on a phone and call the child's parents.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 02, 2016, 14:00:11
If a child soldier is shooting at Canadian soldiers then the soldiers should get on a phone and call the child's parents.

Interesting you should say that...

One of our biggest threats, in downtown Belfast, were crowds of kids throwing things at us day and night. Troops would get bottled, bricked, and dirty diapered, which earned them various stitches etc.

We put a stop to it eventually, by running big arrest operations on, yes, children, in concert with the police.

We'd have a vehicle 'break down' in rock throw territory knowing that they would converge on us like hungry sharks. Once the rain of debris started we would throw a cordon in around them, bundle them (terrified) into Pigs, then take the to the police station. We would then call their parents, who would have to GO INTO THE POILICE STATION to sign them out.

The IRA watched the police stations, of course, so knew that 'Mr and Mrs so and so from the Divis Flats' had gone into the station - perhaps to inform on them to the police. That night, they would usually get a visit from the Boyos and a gypsy's warning.

Funny, after that, the kids decided that going to school was a better option.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on December 02, 2016, 14:03:20

We put a stop to it eventually, by running big arrest operations on, yes, children, in concert with the police.

We'd have a vehicle 'break down' in rock throw territory knowing that they would converge on us like hungry sharks. Once the rain of debris started we would throw a cordon in around them, bundle them (terrified) into Pigs, then take the to the police station. We would then call their parents, who would have to GO INTO THE POILICE STATION to sign them out.

The IRA watched the police stations, of course, so knew that 'Mr and Mrs so and so from the Divis Flats' had gone into the station - perhaps to inform on them to the police. That night, they would usually get a visit from the Boyos and a gypsy's warning.

Funny, after that, the kids decided that going to school was a better option.

WIN/win situation.  Large WIN:Kids no longer a problem.  Small win: IRA temporarily confused.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on December 02, 2016, 15:38:58
Interesting you should say that...

One of our biggest threats, in downtown Belfast, were crowds of kids throwing things at us day and night. Troops would get bottled, bricked, and dirty diapered, which earned them various stitches etc.

We put a stop to it eventually, by running big arrest operations on, yes, children, in concert with the police.

We'd have a vehicle 'break down' in rock throw territory knowing that they would converge on us like hungry sharks. Once the rain of debris started we would throw a cordon in around them, bundle them (terrified) into Pigs, then take the to the police station. We would then call their parents, who would have to GO INTO THE POILICE STATION to sign them out.

The IRA watched the police stations, of course, so knew that 'Mr and Mrs so and so from the Divis Flats' had gone into the station - perhaps to inform on them to the police. That night, they would usually get a visit from the Boyos and a gypsy's warning.

Funny, after that, the kids decided that going to school was a better option.

When we were sitting on our rucksacks waiting to not go to Zaire in '96, this very ROE scenario was played out as part of our (sit down in class) training - I was a syndicate lead because I'd been deployed before.  We went through the gradual force continuum stuff to someone taking something out of a vehicle...which in the end it turned out to be a rifle, so now we're chasing this kid with a C7.  The scenario came to the point where the kid stops and turns around - What do you do?  We discussed in our little group, one of whom was an AJAG, but in the end I just wanted a bit of clarification.  They came to me - "Syndicate 1, what is your response?"  "I just need clarification - does this kid that's running away whirl around on me or does he stop and slowly turn around?"  The class DS, who incidentally had never left the wire in Visoko, responded "You're chasing this kid, you've fired warning shots at them and they all of a sudden stop and turn around with the rifle!"  So I said without blinking an eye "I'd drop them where they stood".  Nothing but gasps and dropped chins and "How could you?!".  She looked at me with rather wide eyes - "Well, that is an option..." - it was apparently the third COA on the DS sheet, vice the first.  The only person smiling was the lawyer, who said he'd back me up if I felt the need to fire.

We've all seen this somewhere, whether it's NI, Croatia/Bosnia, Rwanda, Afghanistan, etc, where the adults use(d) the kids to do their dirty work since they feel we're less likely to do anything.  In the case of actual child soldiers, we actually see similar things in North America with gangbangers - a 12 year old is just as able to, and more likely to, shoot someone than an older person is simply because they don't completely understand finality of death.  I kept my air pistol on the dash of my ambulance in Croatia for the later part of my tour, since the kids were becoming more brazen...the ROE stated we were allowed to return fire with like fire, so it was there to deal with airguns, slingshots, etc.  Once I started displaying it, no more rock throwing...and I never fired it in anger...at a humanoid.

I suppose I could also bring up the Canadian Army facing off against the 12 SS (Hitler Youth) Division in Falaise/Caen...wonder if anyone thought to talk to the vets that fought there  :whistle:  ?

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on December 02, 2016, 15:47:30

I suppose I could also bring up the Canadian Army facing off against the 12 SS (Hitler Youth) Division in Falaise/Caen...wonder if anyone thought to talk to the vets that fought there  :whistle:  ?

MM

I was thinking that, but didn't want to invoke Goodwin's Law.    [:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Sandyson on December 02, 2016, 19:28:56
The name to remember here is Kurt Meyer who was in charge.  They gunned down Sherbrooke Fusilier prisoners of war.  While he was convicted for this, the Canadian government later accepted him into Canada then gave him a job as prison librarian in New Brunswick.
The announcement seems more politically motivated than necessary. They are covering their proverbial asses.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: mariomike on December 02, 2016, 19:38:14
I suppose I could also bring up the Canadian Army facing off against the 12 SS (Hitler Youth) Division in Falaise/Caen...

I believe they were 18.

12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend

https://www.google.ca/search?q=12th+ss&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=JQVCWNzvH4WN8QeRioDABw&gws_rd=ssl#q=12th+ss+1926

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jed on December 02, 2016, 19:49:16
I believe they were 18.

12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend

https://www.google.ca/search?q=12th+ss&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=JQVCWNzvH4WN8QeRioDABw&gws_rd=ssl#q=12th+ss+1926

A guy from my home town said he was 16 before the Cdns captured him.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: mariomike on December 02, 2016, 19:54:57
A guy from my home town said he was 16 before the Cdns captured him.

I'm just going by what I have read. That members of the 12th SS were born in 1926.

Including on here,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+12th+SS+1926&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=YAlCWL_uNION8QeZ3KrgCA&gws_rd=ssl

Not to discredit whatever the guy from your hometown told you.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on December 02, 2016, 20:19:45
I believe later in the campaign some reinforcements were younger. Not to be too much of a wet blanket, but the Hitler Jugend Division is not a good example of the child soldiers our troops could encounter in Africa. The young Germans were disciplined and operated under the control of older, more-experienced veterans of the Waffen SS from the Eastern Front. That is not necessarily the case for child soldiers.

And, contrary to popular belief, the 12th SS Division fought fanatically, but were tactically not all that good. Kurt Meyer embellished their achievements in his memoirs, but a lot of his claims do not stand up to critical analysis. Sorry for the sidetrack.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Larry Strong on December 02, 2016, 20:22:06
"......A recruitment drive began, drawing principally on 17-year-old volunteers, but younger members 16 and under eagerly joined. During July and August 1943, some 10,000 recruits arrived at the training camp in Beverloo, Belgium....."

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-boy-soldiers.htm

".....with the majority of the enlisted cadre being drawn from Hitler Youth boys between the ages of 16 and 18......"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth#World_War_II

https://www.google.ca/search?biw=1200&bih=584&q=hitlerjugend&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiSk9HS3tbQAhVN-mMKHRY7AdwQ1QIIVSgC




;)

Cheers
Larry
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: mariomike on December 02, 2016, 20:29:54
12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend
The origins of the 12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend can be traced back to late 1942 and early 1943. In all probability, the idea to create a "Hitlerjugend" (Hitler Youth) division was first tabled by SS-Gruppenführer Gottlob Berger for Hitler's consideration sometime in January of 1943. His vision called for the drafting of all HJ members who were born in 1926 and assigning them to a "Hitlerjugend" combat formation.
http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations/119-germany-waffen-ss/germany-waffen-ss-divisions/1290-12-ss-panzer-division-hitlerjugend
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on December 02, 2016, 20:31:16
Maybe we can issue soldiers (signed) "less lethal" boxing gloves to deal with the little munchkins?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Larry Strong on December 02, 2016, 20:33:39
12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend
The origins of the 12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend can be traced back to late 1942 and early 1943. In all probability, the idea to create a "Hitlerjugend" (Hitler Youth) division was first tabled by SS-Gruppenführer Gottlob Berger for Hitler's consideration sometime in January of 1943. His vision called for the drafting of all HJ members who were born in 1926 and assigning them to a "Hitlerjugend" combat formation.
http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations/119-germany-waffen-ss/germany-waffen-ss-divisions/1290-12-ss-panzer-division-hitlerjugend


Not to say that younger was not accepted.......


Cheers
Larry
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: mariomike on December 02, 2016, 20:36:02
I just awarded Jarnhamar 1,200 Milpoints!  :) That's a bit too generous, I only meant to award +300!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on December 02, 2016, 20:47:01
Maybe we can issue soldiers (signed) "less lethal" boxing gloves to deal with the little munchkins?

Tazers?

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 03, 2016, 00:03:19
One of my previous jobs was Pl Comd, Junior Parachute Company, Depot Para and Abn Forces.

We took school leavers at the age of 16 and trained them for a year, by which time they were ready for 'adult service'. Those who passed entered the 6 month recruit training course. Amongst other things, they attended regular educational upgrading and were allocated a milk allowance. Yes, a milk allowance. I paid them in cash, at a pay parade, every month. Though it was a modest pay packet, for many, it was the most money they had ever seen in their lives. Every month.

They did everything the adult soldiers did, up to and including live firing and 10 milers. Unlike the adult soldiers, they participated in extensive adventure training activities including mountaineering, various kinds of skiing and a variety of competitive sports.With few exceptions, all who made it into Recruit Company went on to become long service soldiers. Many RSMs were Junior Paras at one time.

Good Fanatics. That's a good way to describe these fine young fellows. Would they have been formidable opponents in an infantry gunfight if required? Absolutely.

We ignore the capabilities of similar young fighters, in other lands, at our peril.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on December 03, 2016, 00:51:02
I suspect if our leaders would treat our "adult" solders a bit more like Daftandbalmy's junior trainees, *we* would find retention much easier as well  ;)

WRT the "child soldier" issue, this is going to be pretty big in the news, since it is easily sensationalized and can be used as a club against the troops when enthusiasm for the mission fades. (How much of a club it will be used against the ill advised decision to do the mission in the first place is open to question). OF course, in places like Mali or Sudan, radicalization of the Islamic community means that it isn't just "child solders" who put our soldiers at risk, but everyone in the radicalized community, as well as assorted foreign fighters eager to bag an "infidel" and assorted profiteers and hangers on who have their own motivations for conflict.

It is difficult to imagine what a quick, easy and media friendly solution will look like. I'm a bit torn between re reading "Street Without Joy" or "Hell in a Very Small Place" (both by Bernard Fall) as primers in what to expect...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: mariomike on December 03, 2016, 09:44:11
Not to say that younger was not accepted.......

My reply was to this question.......

I suppose I could also bring up the Canadian Army facing off against the 12 SS (Hitler Youth) Division in Falaise/Caen...wonder if anyone thought to talk to the vets that fought there  :whistle:  ?

Child soldiers have been a concern expressed throughout these 28 pages.

But, as a non-expert, I would question the value of asking our surviving vets who served in Falaise/Caen for advice on how to fight, or avoid fighting, child soldiers. 

Simply because I question if military experts consider the 12th SS at Falaise/Caen to be a child soldier unit?

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: beachdown on December 03, 2016, 22:24:33
So, right after Xmas then for soldiers to start rolling into Mali and Senegal????
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on December 04, 2016, 01:46:32
I just awarded Jarnhamar 1,200 Milpoints!  :) That's a bit too generous, I only meant to award +300!

 I don't think that should happen.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 04, 2016, 20:20:26
I don't think that should happen.

Me neither... the national equalization payment plan requires us to award points equally across time zones, I believe :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: beachdown on December 04, 2016, 20:59:33
So, Op Frequence has lift off then
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on December 04, 2016, 21:04:29
Me neither... the national equalization payment plan requires us to award points equally across time zones, I believe :)

I'm not giving the milpoints back. I'm saving them up for when I start playing the Army.ca Afghan Ops game again.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 05, 2016, 00:46:10
So, Op Frequence has lift off then

Yup, couple of weeks ago now...

Attention: Update

On November 20, 2016, the CAF conducted its first flight under Operation FREQUENCE. A CC-177 Globemaster aircraft transported personnel and equipment from France to West Africa and the Sahel region.


http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-abroad-current/op-frequence.page
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Larry Strong on December 05, 2016, 09:44:58
I'm not giving the milpoints back. I'm saving them up for when I start playing the Army.ca Afghan Ops game again.



Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: beachdown on December 05, 2016, 10:14:34
Why can't the country/ies just be named? West Africa is large area just like North America

Yup, couple of weeks ago now...

Attention: Update

On November 20, 2016, the CAF conducted its first flight under Operation FREQUENCE. A CC-177 Globemaster aircraft transported personnel and equipment from France to West Africa and the Sahel region.


http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-abroad-current/op-frequence.page
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on December 05, 2016, 10:25:36
Why can't the country/ies just be named? West Africa is large area just like North America

Most likely OPSEC.  The French are very secretive about their operations and are one of the few that don't allow media embeds with their forces.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 05, 2016, 13:10:04
Three of Army's nine infantry battalions needed to sustain NATO Latvia mission--how many will be needed for UN peace ops mission in (likely) Mali?  What effect on regulars and reserves of two major simultaneous commitments?  Scroll down at link:

Quote
...Latvia’s preparing its bases to welcome three of Canada’s nine deployable battalions, “one of which will soon spend its time on the ground, one for standby support, and one to switch during regular rotations,” according to Canadian military spokesman Evan Koronewski. The federal government has earmarked $348.6 million for the three-year deployment...
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/i-feel-wonderful-about-russia-as-canada-prepares-to-send-troops-to-latvia-not-everybody-is-ready-to-welcome-them

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Retired AF Guy on December 12, 2016, 00:26:24
An article from the TorStar about how the Dutch government is explaining its rational for deploying troops to Mali. Re-produced under the usual caveats of the Copyright Act.

Quote
Dutch letter spurs calls for Canadian transparency ahead of military deployment

By BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH Ottawa Bureau
Sun., Dec. 11, 2016

OTTAWA—As the Dutch government prepared to deploy its military to Mali in late 2013, parliamentarians in that country were given an extraordinary document.

In a 14-page letter presented to Parliament, the ministers of defence, foreign affairs, security and justice set out in detail the risks, costs and strategy for the mission.

It acknowledged the challenges, offered a blunt assessment of its partners — concluding the Malian military was barely capable and that some regional security partnerships were “relatively ineffective” — and laid out the strategy for what it called a “comprehensive” approach to help resolve the conflict.

Now, as Justin Trudeau’s Liberal government prepares to announce the deployment of up to 600 Canadian soldiers on a peace mission, there are calls for cabinet ministers to be equally upfront with politicians and Canadians.

“There’s no more serious decision of a government than to put the lives of our brave women and men in uniform on the line,” NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair said last week.

“They have the obligation to bring that into Parliament with full disclosure and have a debate and allow people to vote,” Mulcair said.

“It’s extremely dangerous, and we have to know that it’s not window dressing, that it has an objective, it has a beginning, it has an end and what’s going to be done exactly by those Canadian troops,” he said.

The Senate committee on national security and defence reproduced the Dutch letter in its recent report that examined UN deployments, saying it was revealing for its “clarity and transparency.”

“The clarity of the letter and the willingness to define the challenges, including the end date for the mission, contributed to the government earning the trust of all parties in support of the deployment on the most dangerous of all UN missions to Mali,” the defence committee said in its report.

The Star has reported that the deployment is likely headed to Mali though cabinet has yet to make a final decision.

With such a sizable troop deployment, Sen. Daniel Lang, chair of the Senate defence committee, said the Liberal government has an obligation to bring it before Parliament for a full discussion.

He said the government must be “open and transparent” on the mission’s objectives, the scope of the commitment and the time frame. “Unlike Afghanistan, where we just kind of slid into a situation that we were not prepared for and became involved in the longest war that Canada has ever gotten involved with,” Lang said.

The Senate committee report recommended that the federal government table a “statement of justification” outlining the size of the mission, its goals, risks, costs and rules of engagement and its term.

The Dutch letter set out the “national interest” in deploying the force to Mali, something Lang said the Liberals must make clear with their coming announcement.

“What is the objective . . . We better fully understand why we’re there,” Lang said.

“When they send those men and women over there, the sons and the daughters, they better do it in the context (of) would they do it to their own son or daughter,” Lang said.

The Dutch letter is remarkable for the details it provided about the mission. And it was more than a courtesy. Such notification about military deployments is required under that country’s constitution.

It set out the rationale for the deployment, outlining the strategic interests of the Netherlands to deploy to the African nation. Under the title “grounds for participation,” the letter notes how regions of Mali are a “breeding ground” for extremism and a sanctuary for terrorist training camps. Mali is also an important staging post for human trafficking

It did not sugar-coat the challenges. For example, it offered this damning assessment of the Malian military — “its combat capacity is minimal; morale and discipline are wanting; leadership is poor and in some cases the command structure has broken down.”

It offered the same damning assessment of the police and justice sector, concluding that “corruption and nepotism are rife.”

It set out Dutch ambitions for the mission, to “help tackle the root cases of the conflict,” an ambition that required a “comprehensive approach.” It explained how the Dutch would work with the United Nations mission, along with the French who are also active in Mali.

It provided a breakdown of the troop commitment and said the size of the contingent was determined “by the wish to make a coherent contribution and the proper robustness for self-protection,” the letter stated.

Surprisingly, it described in detail the responsibilities of various elements of the mission. The letter highlighted, for example, how helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles and the work of 90 special forces soldiers doing long-range patrols would come together to provide intelligence.

It explained, too, how senior Dutch officers would retain command of troops, a procedure “adopted in part as a result of lessons learned from previous missions.”

It judged improvised explosive devices to only a moderate threat, warned that health risks were high and said if Dutch units came under attack, they would be able to protect themselves and, if needed, could call on UN or French forces for backup.

“Operations will be co-ordinated daily to take account of the latest threat assessment,” the letter states.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said last week that his government will be upfront to explain its reasoning around the upcoming Canadian deployment.

“It’s about informing Canadians to making sure that they understand why we’re making a decision and then how we’re also looking to do it as well,” Sajjan said.

“Any time we send our troops, it’s extremely important to me and to the prime minister . . . we will thoroughly explain this,” he said.

 Article Link  (https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/12/11/dutch-letter-spurs-calls-for-canadian-transparency-ahead-of-military-deployment.html)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 12, 2016, 09:51:39
Three of Army's nine infantry battalions needed to sustain NATO Latvia mission--how many will be needed for UN peace ops mission in (likely) Mali?  What effect on regulars and reserves of two major simultaneous commitments?  Scroll down at link:

Mark
Ottawa

Don't forget IMPACT; while the cbt arms are not involved there, there is still the HQ,  CSS, Int etc deployed plus the  ongoing logistical and transport support from Canada to theatre that is required for support to the ATF,  Field hospital and SOF folks.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on December 12, 2016, 10:07:08
Now, as Justin Trudeau’s Liberal government prepares to announce the deployment of up to 600 Canadian soldiers on a peace mission, there are calls for cabinet ministers to be equally upfront with politicians and Canadians.
Stand-up comedy at its finest.   ;)


(For clarity, my disbelief in government explaining deployments in any terms close to what the Dutch have done is not limited to any party)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: beachdown on December 13, 2016, 21:38:20
Update......

Quote
Ottawa delays decision on overseas military deployment

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/12/13/ottawa-delays-decision-on-overseas-military-deployment.html (https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/12/13/ottawa-delays-decision-on-overseas-military-deployment.html)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on December 13, 2016, 22:18:42
Update......

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/12/13/ottawa-delays-decision-on-overseas-military-deployment.html (https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/12/13/ottawa-delays-decision-on-overseas-military-deployment.html)

"An announcement on the deployment of Canadian soldiers on a peace support mission overseas has been postponed until after the holidays as Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan says the government wants to take the time to "get this right."

Or time to "find a way to uphold a promise that we didn't think that we'd have to keep and still can't figure out where or how to do so"?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: beachdown on December 17, 2016, 12:34:33
Watch and shoot.....I guess
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on December 19, 2016, 12:17:49
Don't forget IMPACT; while the cbt arms are not involved there, there is still the HQ,  CSS, Int etc deployed plus the  ongoing logistical and transport support from Canada to theatre that is required for support to the ATF,  Field hospital and SOF folks.

Send NDHQ types and move the training centre closer to the frontlines......
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on December 19, 2016, 12:21:07
Or time to "find a way to uphold a promise that we didn't think that we'd have to keep and still can't figure out where or how to do so"?
All while, 1)  being able to call it anything other than "combat" or "fighting", and 2) ensuring minimal risk of injury/death that could have an impact on public opinion.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Half Full on December 19, 2016, 13:01:06
Send NDHQ types and move the training centre closer to the frontlines......
So what do you mean by "NDHQ types"?  Seems a little flippant and dismissive...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 19, 2016, 13:07:56
Send NDHQ types and move the training centre closer to the frontlines......

There's already enough HQ there now, trust me.   Tooth to tail is embarrassing.   Supporters supporting supporters, some of whom have no idea what the actual mission really is.  Garrison Kuwait with *hours of operation* signs galore.

People are for the most part located where they should be in theatre.  Front lines can be fluid.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 19, 2016, 13:11:11
So what do you mean by "NDHQ types"?  Seems a little flippant and dismissive...

Bus riding chair commandos with Sentinelle patches  :facepalm: who never come close to the battlespace but go home with *tour stories*.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on December 19, 2016, 13:12:35
Am I being cynical, or maybe realistic, and did somebody over-guesstimate the number of bodies required for what we are doing? Rather than be open to criticism for reducing numbers, and heaven forbid we would increase the teeth, the decision is to maintain the status quo.

Hope I'm wrong.  :salute:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Half Full on December 19, 2016, 13:18:07
Bus riding chair commandos with Sentinelle patches  :facepalm: who never come close to the battlespace but go home with *tour stories*.

Sounds like someone who has never been to NDHQ...that comment probably includes about 0.5% of the NDHQ population.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 19, 2016, 13:20:09
 :rofl:

okay.  Thanks for the laugh!  Let's keep this one on topic now...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: c_canuk on December 19, 2016, 13:37:25
Over support and not knowing what the mission is, is nothing new. When I was in the Golan 10 years ago CanLogBatt worked in isolation from the rest of the mission.

It was to the point that their Dispatch was better manned than the HQ Dispatch because we "didn't do anything" yeah, beyond being the back bone primary net for the observers, safety net for NGOs, admin net for the entire mission, conduit to adjacent missions, and SDS, we don't do anything, and you need more people to monitor your single dispatch net...

The best was when the far side Sig O was telling me I didn't know what I was talking about, in regards to responsibilities, because it wasn't covered in the sigs plan from, I crap you not, 1987. He thought that the Austrians were doing the night shifts, but they hadn't been for over 2 decades at that point.

The most common phrase there was "******* Canadians!" by the other nations. They were always grounding fleets for general maint, changing support without asking permission let alone verifying it wasn't interfering with operations, and abandoning obligations with orders not to pass on information to our local CoC.

The rest of the mission saw Canlogbatt as a nuisance to be marginalized cause it regarded it's support role as THE mission. they were busy creating their own support mechanisms to deal with the issues. I don't know how that panned out once the Indian army took over.

There were multiple times I almost got into a fight with the maintainers cause they kept seizing my 4 runner while I was in the middle of an SDS Run. Couldn't be bothered to email or call me to set up an appointment, nope, they'd just leap on it when I came to pick up their ******* mail. So I'd have to run back to the CP to call over to my dispatch and let them know what was going on, so the QRF didn't get dispatched to find me. The idea that they'd send out a QRF to find a late SDS seemed to confuse them... cause I wasn't the mission, I wasn't important, why would the QRF be so worried if I was an hour late... ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on December 19, 2016, 14:49:11
So what do you mean by "NDHQ types"?  Seems a little flippant and dismissive...

Quite dismissive actually. When you look at the size and look at the results on the ground, soldiers without boots, uniforms and tents, etc, etc there is something very wrong. I suspect there are many people there that have burrowed into nice safe holes and will take explosives to remove. I freely admit my paint roller may inadvertently splashed others who do try and have served in nasty places. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 19, 2016, 15:10:40
Over support and not knowing what the mission is, is nothing new. When I was in the Golan 10 years ago CanLogBatt worked in isolation from the rest of the mission.

It was to the point that their Dispatch was better manned than the HQ Dispatch because we "didn't do anything" yeah, beyond being the back bone primary net for the observers, safety net for NGOs, admin net for the entire mission, conduit to adjacent missions, and SDS, we don't do anything, and you need more people to monitor your single dispatch net...

The best was when the far side Sig O was telling me I didn't know what I was talking about, in regards to responsibilities, because it wasn't covered in the sigs plan from, I crap you not, 1987. He thought that the Austrians were doing the night shifts, but they hadn't been for over 2 decades at that point.

The most common phrase there was "******* Canadians!" by the other nations. They were always grounding fleets for general maint, changing support without asking permission let alone verifying it wasn't interfering with operations, and abandoning obligations with orders not to pass on information to our local CoC.

The rest of the mission saw Canlogbatt as a nuisance to be marginalized cause it regarded it's support role as THE mission. they were busy creating their own support mechanisms to deal with the issues. I don't know how that panned out once the Indian army took over.

There were multiple times I almost got into a fight with the maintainers cause they kept seizing my 4 runner while I was in the middle of an SDS Run. Couldn't be bothered to email or call me to set up an appointment, nope, they'd just leap on it when I came to pick up their ******* mail. So I'd have to run back to the CP to call over to my dispatch and let them know what was going on, so the QRF didn't get dispatched to find me. The idea that they'd send out a QRF to find a late SDS seemed to confuse them... cause I wasn't the mission, I wasn't important, why would the QRF be so worried if I was an hour late... ::)

Holy cr$p.

I hope Santa doesn't pass by that way.... he'll never get his job done this Xmas eve!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on December 19, 2016, 21:14:41
Quite dismissive actually. When you look at the size and look at the results on the ground, soldiers without boots, uniforms and tents, etc, etc

Morale is quite high. The soldiers don't mind paying out of their pockets for boots that don't explode if it means seeing their leaders with new hats, ranks, and patches  ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on December 19, 2016, 22:38:29
This triggered a flashback to the late seventies when I was a staff officer in FMCHQ. There was a fair amount of angst being expressed because the combat arms had one mission, in Cyprus, while the Sigs and the CSS world picked up all the new missions. The rationale expressed to we humble beings of the lieutenant colonel genre was that any army could provide infantry, but only sophisticated western armies could send competent, effective logistics and communications organizations, and this pre-dated power point by 10 or 15 years.

Therefore peace keeping was the purview of the support trades, and this is not meant as an attack on any of these folks who served honourably and well. I wonder if this is where the peacekeeping image originated?

Or did our GOs have a different agenda?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 20, 2016, 00:57:15
Morale is quite high. The soldiers don't mind paying out of their pockets for boots that don't explode if it means seeing their leaders with new hats, ranks, and patches  ;)

The beatings will continue until morale improves. Carry on :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: E.R. Campbell on December 20, 2016, 10:18:23
This triggered a flashback to the late seventies when I was a staff officer in FMCHQ. There was a fair amount of angst being expressed because the combat arms had one mission, in Cyprus, while the Sigs and the CSS world picked up all the new missions. The rationale expressed to we humble beings of the lieutenant colonel genre was that any army could provide infantry, but only sophisticated western armies could send competent, effective logistics and communications organizations, and this pre-dated power point by 10 or 15 years.

Therefore peace keeping was the purview of the support trades, and this is not meant as an attack on any of these folks who served honourably and well. I wonder if this is where the peacekeeping image originated?

Or did our GOs have a different agenda?

 :warstory:

It goes all the way back to 1957, when Mike Pearson and the defence chiefs wanted to send a combat unit to the first large scale UN force (the United Nations Emergency Force) that Pearson rammed through the UN in order to prevent a strategic breach between President Eisenhower and the mental midgets running Britain and France.

     (It's important to stress that Pearson didn't give a damn about Egypt or peace; his only aim ~ a good one ~ was to preserve the strategic unity of the West in the face of ever growing Soviet challenges.
      I know that a hundred thousand university professors and school teachers disagree; they are ALL wrong. Ditto the Liberal Party's peacekeeping narrative: the part that isn't just wishful thinking is a lie.)

Anyway, as you might recall a battalion of the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada was ordered to prepare to embark and then Egypt's President Nasser objected, saying that it would be impossible to explain to his people that a unit named for the (British) monarch who had just invaded his country was now being sent to keep the peace. Nasser didn't have to explain anything to anyone, of course, but he had been humiliated by the Anglo-French-Israeli invasion and upsetting the UN's applecart gave him a minor and needed, political victory. It also gave the UN staff an opportunity to press Canada to provide "services" that many other countries, like Brazil, Columbia, Indonesia and Yugoslavia, could not provide. Thus was born the "tradition" of Canada supplying "housekeeping" troops (Engineers, Signals, Supply, Transport and Maintenance) rather than combat units.

     (Parenthetically, it damned near destroyed the (really quite tiny) Signal Corps by about 1960; the burdens of manning a big brigade Signal Squadron in Germany (4CIBG) and two others on UN duties (56 Sig Sqn in the Middle East and
      57 Sig Sqn in Congo) was, simply more than that Corps could manage and large numbers of soldiers were recruited from other arms and extra people were withdrawn from Canadian based units to augment the School and train them.)

Ok, helmets off, back to your smoke break.

Edit: typo
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Halifax Tar on December 20, 2016, 11:33:55
:warstory:

It goes all the way back to 1957, when Mike Pearson and the defence chiefs wanted to send a combat unit to the first large scale UN force (the United Nations Emergency Force) that Pearson rammed through the UN in order to prevent a strategic breach between President Eisenhower and the mental midgets running Britain and France.

     (It's important to stress that Pearson didn't give a damn about Egypt or peace; his only aim ~ a good one ~ was to preserve the strategic unity of the West in the face of ever growing Soviet challenges.
      I know that a hundred thousand university professors and school teachers disagree; they are ALL wrong. Ditto the Liberal Party's peacekeeping narrative: the part that isn't just wishful thinking is a lie.)

Anyway, as you might recall a battalion of the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada was ordered to prepare to embark and then Egypt's President Nasser objected, saying that it would be impossible to explain to his people that a unit named for the (British) monarch who had just invaded his country was now being sent to keep the peace. Nasser didn't have to explain anything to anyone, of course, but he had been humiliated by the Anglo-French-Israeli invasion and upsetting the UN's applecart gave him a minor and needed, political victory. It also gave the UN staff an opportunity to press Canada to provide "services" that many other countries, like Brazil, Columbia, Indonesia and Yugoslavia, could not provide. Thus was born the "tradition" of Canada supplying "housekeeping" troops (Engineers, Signals, Supply, Transport and Maintenance) rather than combat units.

     (Parenthetically, it damned near destroyed the (really quite tiny) Signal Corps by about 1960; the burdens of manning a big brigade Signal Squadron in Germany (4CIBG) and two others on UN duties (56 Sig Sqn in the Middle East and
      57 Sig Sqn in Congo) was, simply more than that Corps could manage and large numbers of soldiers were recruited from other arms and extra people were withdrawn from Canadian based units to augment the School and train them.)

Ok, helmets off, back to your smoke break.

Edit: typo

ERC, I think I remember you posting in the past that Canada used to be very well respected in the worlds of military logistics and signals.  Am I just making that up ?  Wish we could get back to that...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: E.R. Campbell on December 20, 2016, 12:04:08
ERC, I think I remember you posting in the past that Canada used to be very well respected in the worlds of military logistics and signals.  Am I just making that up ?  Wish we could get back to that...


I'm not sure "respected" is the right word. We could and did do both, and a few other things like run airfields, run fixed services like water and electrical supply and so on, for the UN and on other missions ... something that only a few other armies, and most of them quite large, could do, and only a few of them could do them well. We were also politically and militarily "willing," again, something that several other countries were not.

The political willingness was obvious: "housekeeping" units were (still are?) less likely to end up in sustained combat thus they will neither inflict nor receive casualties and the attendant (too often unfavourable) media coverage, but we, as a country and the government of the day, still got "credit" for having "boots on the ground."

The military willingness was a bit more complex. Some admirals and generals understood that "services" are vital in war and that UN missions gave engineer, signals and logistics officers and NCOs a chance to improvise and innovate and so on and, also, gave them some (needed) operational experience.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 20, 2016, 12:21:15
E.R. Campbell:

Quote
...
(It's important to stress that Pearson didn't give a damn about Egypt or peace; his only aim ~ a good one ~ was to preserve the strategic unity of the West in the face of ever growing Soviet challenges.
      I know that a hundred thousand university professors and school teachers disagree; they are ALL wrong. Ditto the Liberal Party's peacekeeping narrative: the part that isn't just wishful thinking is a lie.)..

Spot on--a post of mine in 2011:

Quote
Canadian Suez Policy was not About the Middle East

A letter of mine sent to the Toronto Star that was not published:

"Re: Travers: Once a Middle East player, Canada now a spectator, Feb. 12
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2011/02/12/travers_once_a_middle_east_player_canada_now_a_spectator.html

Mr. Travers fails to understand what Canadian policy - as much Prime Minister St. Laurent’s as External Affairs Minister Pearson’s - on Suez in 1956 was really about.  Their main concern was not the Middle East.  It was rather finding a way to avoid a complete falling out between the U.S. (which strongly opposed Western military intervention) on the one hand and the U.K. and France (who were attacking Egypt in collusion with Israel) on the other.   It was feared that such a major falling out would be to the great benefit of the USSR, which was just suppressing Hungary.  The main point was to maintain NATO Cold War solidarity, not to bring peace to the Middle East.  The second point was trying to avoid the Soviets’ gaining substantial ground in the Third World generally in reaction to perceived British-French neo-colonialism.

I worked as research assistant on the relevant section of Volume II of Mr. Pearson’s memoirs, Mike.  People should look at it for a good account of what really went on.  Canada was actually very “cozy with the U.S.”, something Mr. Travers now decries us for being.  The “peacekeeping” force was in fact as much an American idea as Canadian; the U.S. asked us to front it for them at the UN as a way of salving Franco-British amour propre, i.e. so it did not look publicly as if the latter were bowing to the overwhelming power of the former.  Which of course they were.  The U.S was threatening to bring down the pound amongst other things."
http://www.cdfai.org.previewmysite.com/the3dsblog/?p=105

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 20, 2016, 15:44:11

I'm not sure "respected" is the right word. We could and did do both, and a few other things like run airfields, run fixed services like water and electrical supply and so on, for the UN and on other missions ... something that only a few other armies, and most of them quite large, could do, and only a few of them could do them well. We were also politically and militarily "willing," again, something that several other countries were not.

The political willingness was obvious: "housekeeping" units were (still are?) less likely to end up in sustained combat thus they will neither inflict nor receive casualties and the attendant (too often unfavourable) media coverage, but we, as a country and the government of the day, still got "credit" for having "boots on the ground."

The military willingness was a bit more complex. Some admirals and generals understood that "services" are vital in war and that UN missions gave engineer, signals and logistics officers and NCOs a chance to improvise and innovate and so on and, also, gave them some (needed) operational experience.

I can hear the Unicorns crying from here... realpolitik at it's finest!  :salute:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on December 23, 2016, 01:38:06
So, will the new ebola vaccine be on the pre-deployment checklist when we head to Africa in force?

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/health/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/health/final-test-results-confirm-canadian-vaccine-for-ebola-is-highly-effective
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on December 23, 2016, 16:56:46
Depends if its a country affected by the Zaire strain. If its the Sudan virus, it wouldn't work.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on December 23, 2016, 21:01:53
Depends if its a country affected by the Zaire strain. If its the Sudan virus, it wouldn't work.

Pssst....it's called the DRC now    ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on December 23, 2016, 21:38:48
Pssst....it's called the DRC now    ;)
You're right, geographically, but WHO (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/) and CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/about.html) say the virus itself is still called Zaire ebolavirus.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on December 23, 2016, 21:56:21
Pssst....it's called the DRC now    ;)
They can call it whatever they want as long as my allowances/pay are tax free and I don't die of Ebola.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: SeaKingTacco on December 23, 2016, 22:43:21
They can call it whatever they want as long as my allowances/pay are tax free and I don't die of Ebola.

No deal. You get to pick 1 out of the 2. ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on December 24, 2016, 04:09:18
They can call it whatever they want as long as my allowances/pay are tax free and I don't die of Ebola.
Don't forget the bit of coloured ribbon for the DEU.    :nod:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: PuckChaser on December 24, 2016, 13:23:47
Don't forget the bit of coloured ribbon for the DEU.    :nod:

2 bits if they put everyone under a UN alphabet soup mission name, free CPSM for your first tour!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Ditch on December 24, 2016, 13:34:55
... who never come close to the battlespace but go home with *tour stories*.
One time - the pool was closed for 4 weeks....  <gasp>  :warstory:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on December 24, 2016, 13:40:59
One time - the pool was closed for 4 weeks....  <gasp>  :warstory:

Or "the wi-fi was down and I can't watch my Netflix".

Wait, that's legit.     >:D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 25, 2016, 11:34:08
One time - the pool was closed for 4 weeks....  <gasp>  :warstory:

As long as the ice cream machine and/or Krispy Cream donuts didn't disappear at the same time...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 25, 2016, 11:36:03
Or "the wi-fi was down and I can't watch my Netflix".

Wait, that's legit.     >:D

How are you supposed to order from Amazon with no wi-fi?   :tempertantrum:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on December 25, 2016, 11:47:04
Good thing the tread title reads "Canadian Army  headed to mission in Africa"..... 

You Zoomies would be pretty traumatized to find that the 'pool' is actually the **** pond.   ;D

 :subbies:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 25, 2016, 12:15:04
Why would a hotel put crap in their pool ???

 ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on December 25, 2016, 12:18:40
Why would a hotel put crap in their pool ???

 ;D

Reminds some guests of home.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on December 25, 2016, 21:35:58
One time - the pool was closed for 4 weeks....  <gasp>  :warstory:

In Cyprus 82/83 we threw Barry Ashton (CO) and John Clark (RSM) in the pool but it was a legit pool in Cyprus....oh the good old days!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on January 03, 2017, 02:36:03
Sending Canadian Soldiers to Africa to shore up a bid for a temporary seat on the Un Security council. Our blood and treasure could be at risk for this?

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/01/02/un-human-rights-council-welcomes-saudi-arabia-to-its-ranks/

Quote
UN Human Rights Council Welcomes Saudi Arabia to Its Ranks
BY MICHAEL VAN DER GALIEN JANUARY 2, 2017

You'll never believe which states joined the United Nations Human Rights Council. Or, well, if you know anything about the UN, perhaps you will believe it:

Welcome to the new 2017 membership @UN_HRC:

Saudi Arabia

Venezuela

China

Cuba

Iraq

Qatar

Burundi

Bangladesh

United Arab Emirates#UNreform pic.twitter.com/Z355F8mI8Z

— Hillel Neuer (@HillelNeuer) January 2, 2017

That reads like a who's who of human rights abusers. Nowadays, however, these regimes -- which routinely oppress women, and jail, torture, and even kill critics -- are somehow deemed to be the protectors of our universal human rights. I'd laugh if it wasn't so incredibly sad.

But wait, the UNHCR says, don't criticize Saudi Arabia! According to Sharia they have "fair gender equality"!

Saudi Arabia begins 2017-2019 term @UN_HRC. Don't worry: "Saudi Arabia supports empowerment of women" & "guarantees fair gender equality." pic.twitter.com/J5ZIKWboZR

— Hillel Neuer (@HillelNeuer) January 2, 2017

Satire, right? Nope, the UNHCR is dead serious.

Tell me again why Canada needs to be validated by third world dictators, kleptocrats and thugs?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on January 03, 2017, 06:16:02
I guess there are no other reasons to do peacekeeping other than to win a UN Security Council seat.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 03, 2017, 06:59:54
Well, as noted you can get a double-double for your services... ^-^

2 bits if they put everyone under a UN alphabet soup mission name, free CPSM for your first tour!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 03, 2017, 14:32:44
One trusts any RCAF Griffons sent to Africa will look like this--official tweet:
https://twitter.com/CanadaNATO/status/816177780282912768

Quote
Canada at NATO Verified account
‏@CanadaNATO

#Forces2016 #OpImpact @CanadianArmy @RCAF_ARC @CanadainIraq @CanadaKuwait @coalition @CanadianAlly

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1LFuCiXcAAYR1G.jpg)

Earlier:

Quote
Canadian UN Peacekeeping in Mali? RCAF Helicopters?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/07/26/mark-collins-canadian-un-peacekeeping-in-mali-rcaf-helicopters/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 21, 2017, 13:38:52
Trump effect putting major Mali mission on hold for now, France and Germany unhappy:

Quote
Liberal peacekeeping decision paused because of uncertainty around Trump
France and Germany working back-channels at UN to express worry over Canada's peacekeeping pause
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/peacekeeping-pause-trump-1.3945847

Jan. 19 from John Ivison:

Quote
...Canadian policy will have to adjust to the new U.S. government.

Sources suggest additional defence spending may be required to satisfy Trump that Canada is doing its part as a NATO ally.

All NATO members signed up to spend two per cent of gross domestic product on defence by 2024. Canada spends less than one per cent and has shown few signs of making progress toward the two per cent target.

Trump’s lieutenants are said to have conceded that Canada often punches above its weight in times of conflict, and that the quality of the contribution is as important as the amount of money spent.

But some concession toward a bigger NATO contribution can be expected, perhaps in the upcoming federal budget.

A potential casualty of that commitment may well be Canada’s planned peacekeeping mission in Africa [emphasis added].

Officials concede that it is not 100 per cent certain the mission to send up to 750 military, police and civilian personnel to aid a United Nations mission in Africa will proceed, as Canada attempts to accommodate a U.S. government less disposed toward the UN than its predecessor...
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-ivison-in-what-will-be-a-bumpy-ride-trudeau-has-to-appease-trump-to-avoid-falling-off-trade-wagon

'Twould be a YUGE climbdown for this gov't, very hard for Liberals to stomach; would think at least some personnel will still be sent if not helos, infantry unit, whatever (i.e not much big equipment).  From November via MND Sajjan:

Quote
Canadian Forces into Africa with UN for Three Years: Where? (hint Mali plus…)
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/11/14/mark-collins-canadian-forces-into-africa-with-un-for-three-years-where-hint-mali-plus/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on January 21, 2017, 14:14:15
Quote
The Obama administration, according to sources with knowledge of the file, made it clear to Canada that it was free to engage in more peacekeeping as along as its other commitments to NORAD and NATO were fulfilled.

From the cbc article referenced above....

Glad that we are a sovereign nation.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jmt18325 on January 21, 2017, 14:37:45
I can see that Obama allowance (we're still a sovereign nation, but we do have commitments) as the reason for increasing our fighter requirements to handle all foreseeable NORAD and NATO deployments.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on January 21, 2017, 14:58:30
I can see that Obama allowance (we're still a sovereign nation, but we do have commitments) as the reason for increasing our fighter requirements to handle all foreseeable NORAD and NATO deployments.

And also for the Latvian deployment - despite some reluctance on the part of the PM and his Foreign Minister at the time.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on January 21, 2017, 15:46:27
I can see France working back channels to convince Canada to go into Africa, especially to help them in Mali, where they could use another first world armed forces' assistance. But Germany? They don't do anything outside of their own country except NATO. What bloody business would they have to tell Canada what to do and where?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on January 21, 2017, 15:59:26
I once heard this description of the French-German relationship in the European Union:  Germany is the horse that France rides.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on January 21, 2017, 16:16:48
Quote from: Oldgateboatdriver
What bloody business would they have to tell Canada what to do and where?

Or, France and Germany want Canadian peacekeepers in their own country to help them with their guests.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Dimsum on January 21, 2017, 16:23:51
Or, France and Germany want Canadian peacekeepers in their own country to help them with their guests.

Sign me up!  #wineinfrance #beeringermany    :subbies:

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on January 21, 2017, 16:36:14
Glad that we are a sovereign nation.
Unlike media saying now a different American president is causing Prince Valiant to change his mind on policy he promised ...
What bloody business would they have to tell Canada what to do and where?
Unlike the U.S. hinting to us and others to spend more on defence?

No matter the colour of the team jerseys on either side of the border ...
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.fineartamerica.com%2Fimages-medium-large-5%2Felephant-vs-mouse-jolanda-caspers.jpg&hash=f674945de5ce6a2a7150019f2cf0e23d)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 21, 2017, 18:11:49
Oldgateboatdriver:

Quote
...But Germany? They don't do anything outside of their own country except NATO. What bloody business would they have to tell Canada what to do and where?

Lots in Mali actually, esp. helos:

Quote
German defense minister urges swift passing of Mali mandate

Germany's defense minister has called on the Bundestag to approve an increased military deployment to Mali. She warned, however, that it would be the most dangerous international mission for German troops.

German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen on Friday [Jan. 20] urged lawmakers to support an expanded peacekeeping mission for the German armed forces in Mali, a country she described as "holding the key" to stability in West Africa.

The German Bundestag is set to approve next week an expansion of the Bundeswehr's contribution to the United Nation's peacekeeping mission in Mali. The expansion would increase the number of German soldiers in the UN's MINUSMA mission from 650 to 1,000 [emphasis added].

Von der Leyen told a parliamentary debate on the deployment that it would be the most challenging as well as the most dangerous for the German military.

The German reinforcements largely cover the deployment of pilots and support crew for four rescue helicopters and four attack helicopters to provide protection [emphasis added, NH-90s and Apaches https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/germany-deploy-tiger-and-nh90-helicopters-mali/ ].  The German plan to deploy helicopters comes as the Dutch will pull out seven transport and attack helicopters in February.

The UN has deployed 13,000 blue helmets under the MINUSMA mission, one of the most dangerous UN missions in the world...
http://www.dw.com/en/german-defense-minister-urges-swift-passing-of-mali-mandate/a-37207343

Chris Pook:

Quote
...also for the Latvian deployment - despite some reluctance on the part of the PM and his Foreign Minister at the time...

Indeed:

Quote
Latvia with NATO vs UN Peacekeeping: Where Government’s Heart Truly is
...
“It’s terribly unfortunate that Canada has to deploy its forces in Latvia instead of having peacekeeping in Africa or in an area of the world where it’s much more needed,” Foreign Affairs Minister Stephane Dion told the Canadian Press on the sidelines of the summit Saturday [July 9]...
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/mark-collins-latvia-with-nato-vs-un-peacekeeping-where-governments-heart-truly-is/

One notes that M. Dion is out, finally, as foreign affairs minister.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on January 21, 2017, 23:48:29
... so, spending only 1% GDP does not give us a military robust enough to do all the things that we want to do and that our allies expect are our obligations? 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Technoviking on January 21, 2017, 23:56:54
This thread started in July....

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: cavalryman on January 22, 2017, 00:11:40
This thread started in July....
Compared to our procurement process, that's the blink of an eye. [:)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on January 22, 2017, 00:36:00
Trump effect putting major Mali mission on hold for now, France and Germany unhappy:

Jan. 19 from John Ivison:

'Twould be a YUGE climbdown for this gov't, very hard for Liberals to stomach; would think at least some personnel will still be sent if not helos, infantry unit, whatever (i.e not much big equipment).  From November via MND Sajjan:

Mark
Ottawa
:crybaby:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on February 07, 2017, 11:47:18
This from late last week (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-stalled-on-un-request-to-lead-mali-mission-because-of-trump-sources/article33896668/) ...
Quote
Canada may have missed a chance to provide the commanding officer for the United Nations peacekeeping mission in Mali because it wanted to talk first to the Trump administration, the Canadian Press has learned.

The UN put out requests to a handful of top-tier countries in mid-December as the term of the mission’s previous commander, Danish Maj.-Gen. Michael Lollesgaard, was coming to an end.

Sources say the Liberal government asked the UN to hold off on a decision until after the government had a chance to consult the new American administration on Canada’s future peacekeeping plans.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said last month he wanted to talk to his American counterpart, Defence Secretary James Mattis, before Canada sent peacekeepers to Africa because co-ordination with the U.S. is essential.

His office said Friday that Canada is still considering its options so it can make the best contribution possible to peace and security.

“We are going into this with our eyes open,” said spokeswoman Jordan Owens.

“We will ensure that our troops have the right mission, mandate, training and equipment in order to mitigate risk and maximize our impact.”

The UN force in Mali is still looking for a commander for its perilous mission holding the line in the fight against Islamic extremists in North Africa. The mission’s deputy commander, a general from Senegal, is currently the highest-ranking officer.

Though the UN has made no formal announcement, it appears the Mali job has been filled and it won’t be with a Canadian, said a western diplomat, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

“They had to get going,” the diplomat said. “They haven’t had a force commander there for over a month.” ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: recceguy on February 07, 2017, 15:13:53
 :whistle: Setting up another broken promise? Maybe he finally realized that taxpayers are not willing to spend blood and treasure in order to buy a seat on the UN?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: CBH99 on February 07, 2017, 15:53:36
Is there a reason why we couldn't provide a Commanding Officer to the Mali mission?

Is one of the conditions of providing a CO that we also have to provide a contingent of troops also?  The article states that the UN put out a request for CO's for the multinational UN mission - didn't mention anything about troop contributions also. 

Just curious.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 07, 2017, 16:17:47
Well then, CBH99, I'll just trow this out there, and please, all, keep in mind this is pure speculation on my part based on my knowledge of internal working of our Federal government system:

There is no requirement for the "C.O." of the Mali mission to be from a country that provides troops to the mission. However, when you are "looking" for a mission in Africa, the fact that a Canadian is CO of a given mission already becomes an important factor in where you decide to send your own troops - after all, you would not want one of your own general/flag officer to fail in his/her mission for want of some military support/equipment/troop that you could have provided to him but sent on another mission instead. So accepting the job of C.O. pretty much seals where you send your people (and I am sure that it played a large part in the UN's decision to call "strongly" on Canada for the C.O. position).

But on the other hand, the Trudeau government, I surmise, was taken by complete surprise by the election of Trump (maybe they only relied on mainstream US medias  ;) ). As a result, they didn't have any plans for dealing with him in the Canada/US relationship and are now working full time on the program.

Now, normally, the Minister of Defence is a pretty senior position in Canada. But not this time. We got a very very junior minister, we no political experience at all, not even as a Member of Parliament, and no experience running large bureaucratic organizations. That means that all defence aspects are really run out of the PMO. But right now the PMO is over its head in trying to figure Trump, so the MND is simply instructed to "not do anything or take any engagement on" until they can get back to him on what to do next.

That's a personal point of view, but as I said, based in years of experience dealing with Federal politics. Do take it with a grain of salt, of course, as I have never played on Team Red.  ;D

 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 07, 2017, 16:35:55
Quote
“We are going into this with our eyes open,” said spokeswoman Jordan Owens.
What an asinine comment. Might as well brag how we plan on putting one boot on at a time.

Quote
“We will ensure that our troops have the right mission, mandate, training and equipment in order to mitigate risk and maximize our impact.”
Like information Security, GBA+ and some boots that explode after wearing them a month.

Quote
Though the UN has made no formal announcement, it appears the Mali job has been filled and it won’t be with a Canadian
So we're losing out on a chance to lead UN soldiers that among other things get accused of rape, child rape and ignore civilians being butchered a kilometer away? What a missed opportunity  ::)   [Sorry if that sounds harsh and assholish but the more I read about the UN the more I'm blown away by the crap they're doing]
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 07, 2017, 17:50:55
Like information Security, GBA+ and some boots that explode after wearing them a month.

Don't forget, we've got the Phoenix pay system to look forward too soon when we're deployed;  surely that will make live easier for our families back home.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 07, 2017, 17:56:10
Don't forget, we've got the Phoenix pay system to look forward too soon when we're deployed;  surely that will make live easier for our families back home.

Are you for real?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 07, 2017, 18:01:59
 ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: dapaterson on February 07, 2017, 18:09:00
Phoenix is off the table as a military pay solution (at least for the near term).  CMP said as much at a town hall several months ago.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on February 07, 2017, 18:11:44
Is there a reason why we couldn't provide a Commanding Officer to the Mali mission?

Is one of the conditions of providing a CO that we also have to provide a contingent of troops also?  The article states that the UN put out a request for CO's for the multinational UN mission - didn't mention anything about troop contributions also. 

Just curious.

We provided Dallaire no soldiers in Rwanda and he was stuck leaning on Bengalis to do his bidding (placing him in a very awkward position).  I wouldn't ever want to see another Canadian Officer placed in such a position.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on March 09, 2017, 14:09:52
A couple of tidbits ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on March 09, 2017, 14:33:25
Don't forget, we've got the Phoenix pay system to look forward too soon when we're deployed;  surely that will make live easier for our families back home.
You do know that Phoenix is for civilian pay, right?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: recceguy on March 09, 2017, 14:46:28
IIRC, recently Trudeau said wherever we go from now on, it'll be a total package.

The Commander and their troops and a gaggle of government civies.

I envision two problems immediately.

1) It'll be a constant struggle deciding if it's the 'Commander's mission' or some civie government worker's.

2) crap is bound to hit the fan, but instead of the mandate, Canadian soldiers will end up protecting the civies.

 :2c:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on March 09, 2017, 15:59:01
IIRC, recently Trudeau said wherever we go from now on, it'll be a total package.

The Commander and their troops and a gaggle of government civies.

I envision two problems immediately.

1) It'll be a constant struggle deciding if it's the 'Commander's mission' or some civie government worker's.

2) crap is bound to hit the fan, but instead of the mandate, Canadian soldiers will end up protecting the civies.

 :2c:

To be honest "soldiers protecting the civies" sounds about right.  The mission should be led by the civvies unless it is a full blown military coalition type effort.

The role of the Canadian military should be, first and foremost, to secure Canadians.  The Military Mission Commander's role then becomes telling the Civvies when it is time to pull pole because he/she can no longer guarantee their safety.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: YZT580 on March 09, 2017, 16:04:36
Not to worry.  If our civilians are from the same pattern as those I encountered there, they won't leave Bamako (which is a very well guarded, reasonably safe town).  All administrative decisions were made from the bar, oops sorry,  conference rooms of the hotels.  Military outside of the city are mainly on there own.  The majority of UN troops remain in lager as well.  Just ask the french!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 09, 2017, 16:07:45
milnews.ca:

Quote
A couple of tidbits ...

    "Canadian aid and foreign affairs officials have made repeated visits to Mali — including one visit just last week — as politicians continue to consider a long-awaited peace operation, the (Toronto) Star has learned...

The acute Norman Spector tweets the Crvena zvezda story as a go:
https://twitter.com/nspector4/status/839801919912632323

Quote
Norman Spector‏ @nspector4

Based on this 'exclusive' on the front page of *this* newspaper, my guess is that a peacekeeping mission to Mali is a go...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6eTYXsVQAAdQF7.jpg)

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Retired AF Guy on March 09, 2017, 17:17:45
We provided Dallaire no soldiers in Rwanda and he was stuck leaning on Bengalis to do his bidding (placing him in a very awkward position).  I wouldn't ever want to see another Canadian Officer placed in such a position.

Sorry, not sure what you meant by, "[h]e was stuck leaning on Bengalis to do his bidding"?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on March 09, 2017, 18:00:11
Not to worry.  If our civilians are from the same pattern as those I encountered there, they won't leave Bamako (which is a very well guarded, reasonably safe town).  All administrative decisions were made from the bar, oops sorry,  conference rooms of the hotels.  Military outside of the city are mainly on there own.  The majority of UN troops remain in lager as well.  Just ask the french!

There's your problem.  They need a proper drink - a nice glass of brown ale.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: YZT580 on March 09, 2017, 23:19:56
Spelling was never my forte.  Should be laager.  As for our troops being there to protect Canadian civilians.  Mali is a war zone.  There shouldn't be any civilians outside the wire at all and the UN has thousands of them already in place.  A few dozen or even hundreds from Canada won't make any difference at all until there is some sort of peace to administer. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on March 10, 2017, 13:20:52
Spelling was never my forte.  Should be laager.  As for our troops being there to protect Canadian civilians.  Mali is a war zone.  There shouldn't be any civilians outside the wire at all and the UN has thousands of them already in place.  A few dozen or even hundreds from Canada won't make any difference at all until there is some sort of peace to administer.

No.  You were right the first time.  Lager simply means rest.  Tanks rest up in a lager, even when it is called a leaguer or even a Boer laager.   And lager beers are created by allowing the beer to rest and the yeast to settle.

As for the explicit role of Canadian troops - protecting civvies going outside of the wire in personal protection details (team to platoon size) doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  If the exercise is a "Whole of Government" exercise then it is the civvies that need to be out in front being seen to be "making a difference". 

Now, as to the particular case of Mali - I have no idea how much freedom of movement there is - or if it is better or worse than Northern Ireland 1969.  Or Israel, or Palestine, or any number of other countries where civilian life continues in the midst of armed conflict.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: YZT580 on March 10, 2017, 18:27:09
There is very little administration outside of Bamako, Timbuktu, and a couple of other major towns that are also garrison locales.  No airways, no navaids, and no controlled airspace except Bamako TMA.  No approaches either as they have stolen all the electronics and melted them down.  Mines are common and planted today where you walked yesterday.  Very few operational schools and clinics and those that are are well-guarded.  The north, is by far the worse.  Bamako itself has several dozen families sharing a single electric socket (when driving watch for extension cords), there is no sewage and the vast majority of locals are refugees from the north; living in tin huts and shacks.  Lots of NGOs running around sucking money and they live fairly well and every set of letters imaginable from the UN have a representative there.  If Canada really wants to spend money wisely, they will not send anyone other than soldiers and pilots.   
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on March 10, 2017, 21:35:53
There is very little administration outside of Bamako, Timbuktu, and a couple of other major towns that are also garrison locales.  No airways, no navaids, and no controlled airspace except Bamako TMA.  No approaches either as they have stolen all the electronics and melted them down.  Mines are common and planted today where you walked yesterday.  Very few operational schools and clinics and those that are are well-guarded.  The north, is by far the worse.  Bamako itself has several dozen families sharing a single electric socket (when driving watch for extension cords), there is no sewage and the vast majority of locals are refugees from the north; living in tin huts and shacks.  Lots of NGOs running around sucking money and they live fairly well and every set of letters imaginable from the UN have a representative there.  If Canada really wants to spend money wisely, they will not send anyone other than soldiers and pilots.

Call me crazy, or anchaos junky, but that sounds like it coukd be a lot of
Fun :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on March 11, 2017, 14:48:10
For certain values of "fun". Otherwise you're in Afghanistan without the mountains, sans battlegroup.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on March 11, 2017, 16:35:59
I really have to say this:

The African mission, if it ever happens, will be a dogs breakfast. As soon as one of our soldiers defends themselves or others, crap will hit the fan. There will be much wailing "how could this happen?" amongst other teeth gnashing and abuse Canada tends to inflict on its military.

Stay. Out. Of. Africa.

My opinion only.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 11, 2017, 16:39:16
My opinion only.

I think there's a few more of us that hold the same opinion. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 11, 2017, 16:54:42
"Out Of Africa":
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089755/

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f_UTfq1lws8/VeiMR2kKCUI/AAAAAAAATrA/MQoI92CUpk8/s640/out_of_africa_LB_ukquad_250euro_DRW6-2_zps430fd4db.jpgoriginal.jpg)

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fclassiq.me%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F07%2Fout-of-africa-style-4-e1342971830560.png&hash=766d49999a04fd8af2c5cc991c3c96d1)

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on March 11, 2017, 17:08:48
No.  You were right the first time.  Lager simply means rest.  Tanks rest up in a lager, even when it is called a leaguer or even a Boer laager.   And lager beers are created by allowing the beer to rest and the yeast to settle.

As for the explicit role of Canadian troops - protecting civvies going outside of the wire in personal protection details (team to platoon size) doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  If the exercise is a "Whole of Government" exercise then it is the civvies that need to be out in front being seen to be "making a difference". 

Now, as to the particular case of Mali - I have no idea how much freedom of movement there is - or if it is better or worse than Northern Ireland 1969.  Or Israel, or Palestine, or any number of other countries where civilian life continues in the midst of armed conflict.

NI... we had 16 battalions of Infantry, plus atts and dets, in a place half the size of Vancouver Island and still couldn't stop the mess.

No, I don't see too many parallels here....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on March 11, 2017, 17:13:33
NI... we had 16 battalions of Infantry, plus atts and dets, in a place half the size of Vancouver Island and still couldn't stop the mess.

No, I don't see too many parallels here....

And that was in an English speaking western area.

yikes.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Spectrum on March 11, 2017, 17:32:51
I really have to say this:

The African mission, if it ever happens, will be a dogs breakfast. As soon as one of our soldiers defends themselves or others, crap will hit the fan. There will be much wailing "how could this happen?" amongst other teeth gnashing and abuse Canada tends to inflict on its military.

Stay. Out. Of. Africa.

My opinion only.

I'll agree to disagree on beards - but on this one, you are spot on.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on March 11, 2017, 17:42:07
And that was in an English speaking western area.

yikes.

Well, they apparently spoke some kind of English but most of us couldn't understand them :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on March 11, 2017, 18:39:34
Well, they apparently spoke some kind of English but most of us couldn't understand them :)

No problem.  The Lancs couldn't understand the Devons neither.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Rifleman62 on March 25, 2017, 12:45:40
The last two sentences are the usual Trudeau jiberish.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/03/25/un-peacekeeping-mission-possible-in-2017-trudeau-says.html

UN peacekeeping mission possible in 2017, Trudeau says

Trudeau has said the Liberal government is still looking at ways to make good on a pledge to support UN peacekeeping operations.

By The Canadian Press - Sat., March 25, 2017

OTTAWA—Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is not ruling out sending troops to a peacekeeping mission this year, even though Canada has not yet told the United Nations what it is up to.

“We have a difficult history in Africa as peacekeepers and we need to make sure that when we embark on any ... military mission, we make the right decisions about what we’re going to do, how we’re going to do it, and the kind of impact we’re going to have on the ground and on Canadians,” Trudeau told reporters Saturday.

“That’s a decision we’re not going to fast-track. We’re making it responsibly and thoughtfully.”

The Liberal government pledged last summer to allot up to 600 troops and 150 police officers for UN peacekeeping operations, plus $450 million over three years on peace and stability projects.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan originally promised to reveal where they were headed by the end of last year. Military officials and Canadian diplomats put some work into figuring out where Canadian troops could make an impact, but an announcement has yet to be made.

The Liberals ended up stalling their plans — including a request from the UN to lead the peacekeeping mission in Mali — as the federal government tried to figure out the priorities of U.S. President Donald Trump and his administration.

Jordan Owens, a spokeswoman for Sajjan, confirmed Saturday that Canada has not provided the UN with formal notice of its contributions, because the government has not yet decided what they will be.

Asked Saturday morning whether that means Canada will not be sending more blue helmets out in the world by the end of the year, Trudeau said he would not draw that conclusion.

“We continue to look very carefully at ways to move forward on the strong commitment we made on peacekeeping,” Trudeau said.

“We know that Canada has to play a strong and effective role on the world stage in ways that suit our capacities and we’re looking to make sure that that happens right,” he said.

Trudeau is on Parliament Hill for a rare weekend Liberal caucus meeting, where MPs are discussing the budget and how to make the most of their remaining time in Ottawa before they head home for the summer.

Liberal MPs who sit on the backbenches have recently been exercising the freedom Trudeau promised them with more free votes, such as when a majority of them voted earlier this month in favour of a bill that would bar health and life insurance companies from forcing clients to disclose the results of genetic testing. That happened even though cabinet voted against it and Trudeau said it was unconstitutional.

However, the prime minister said Saturday that his caucus is more united than ever.

“I’ve been around the Liberal party an awfully long time, as you all know, and I’ve never seen a caucus as strongly united in our approach and our values,” Trudeau said on his way to the meeting, which was in its second day.

“One of the great strengths of the Liberal party is there is always a range of perspectives that allow us to represent the range of perspectives of Canadians,” he said.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Retired AF Guy on March 25, 2017, 13:30:24

“I’ve been around the Liberal party an awfully long time, as you all know, and I’ve never seen a caucus as strongly united in our approach and our values,” Trudeau said on his way to the meeting, which was in its second day.

“One of the great strengths of the Liberal party is there is always a range of perspectives that allow us to represent the range of perspectives of Canadians,” he said.

Gag me with a Smurf!! [Xp
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on March 25, 2017, 13:48:43
Now, I might be picking fly **** here, but it seems to me that the two concepts contradict one another:

You can not simultaneously be "strongly united" in "approach and values" yet have a "range of perspectives" that "represent the range of perspectives of Canadians".

 :dunno:

This is the Trudeau quote I like the most (to sarcastically mean the least):

“We know that Canada has to play a strong and effective role on the world stage in ways that suit our capacities and we’re looking to make sure that that happens right,”

Really! "Has to play"! No choice? We'll be the pariah of the world if we don't? The UN will sanction us if we don't?

Come on: We have no specific obligations to the world other than the ones we chose/elect/decide for ourselves to take on. Give me a break!
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: FSTO on March 25, 2017, 14:27:58
Now, I might be picking fly **** here, but it seems to me that the two concepts contradict one another:

You can not simultaneously be "strongly united" in "approach and values" yet have a "range of perspectives" that "represent the range of perspectives of Canadians".

 :dunno:

This is the Trudeau quote I like the most (to sarcastically mean the least):

“We know that Canada has to play a strong and effective role on the world stage in ways that suit our capacities and we’re looking to make sure that that happens right,”

Really! "Has to play"! No choice? We'll be the pariah of the world if we don't? The UN will sanction us if we don't?

Come on: We have no specific obligations to the world other than the ones we chose/elect/decide for ourselves to take on. Give me a break!

The current PM does a fantastic job connecting with Canadians on an individual level that totally destroyed Harper. But when it comes to gravitas on matters of substance he comes across as totally inadequate intellectually to see outside of talking points and buzz words. His government is so focused on getting into the UN Security Council that they cannot fathom that our military is quickly becoming unable to deploy from Shilo to Wainwright let alone deploying to Africa. I'm getting more and more disillusioned in our Defence Minister who may be a great guy but seems to be nothing more than window dressing for the current PM.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on March 25, 2017, 14:45:13
The current PM does a fantastic job connecting with Canadians on an individual level that totally destroyed Harper. But when it comes to gravitas on matters of substance he comes across as totally inadequate intellectually to see outside of talking points and buzz words. His government is so focused on getting into the UN Security Council that they cannot fathom that our military is quickly becoming unable to deploy from Shilo to Wainwright let alone deploying to Africa. I'm getting more and more disillusioned in our Defence Minister who may be a great guy but seems to be nothing more than window dressing for the current PM.

That, I believe, is the reason he was hired by the Liberal Party of Canada "Inc." and why he is stumping the countryside doing townhalls and by-elections with the occasional foreign foray.  Trudeau serves the Liberals in the same manner that Her Majesty serves Canada - a figurehead.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on March 25, 2017, 17:22:23
... “I’ve been around the Liberal party an awfully long time, as you all know, and I’ve never seen a caucus as strongly united in our approach and our values,” Trudeau said on his way to the meeting, which was in its second day.

“One of the great strengths of the Liberal party is there is always a range of perspectives that allow us to represent the range of perspectives of Canadians,” he said.
"Until I decide what we do ..."
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Rifleman62 on March 25, 2017, 17:52:13
Quote
"Until I decide what we do ..."
If you mean Mr. Trudeau you forgot the smiley.   
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on March 25, 2017, 21:20:27
If you mean Mr. Trudeau you forgot the smiley.
I did mean same, but I was serious - especially in a majority government situation ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on March 29, 2017, 13:00:29
Don't bet on much "all of government" support in any mission either. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/congo-un-investigators-dead-1.4045026
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on March 29, 2017, 13:45:28
It's not a place (UN missions to Africa) we should be sticking our nose into as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on March 29, 2017, 15:32:34
Don't bet on much "all of government" support in any mission either. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/congo-un-investigators-dead-1.4045026

I understand the found a warehouse full of tropical tans and Hush Puppy tropical shoes left over from the Golan.  So there the uniform supply problem solved..............
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: ArmyVern on March 29, 2017, 20:27:53
... So there the uniform supply problem solved..............

... Or not.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Infanteer on March 29, 2017, 20:36:51
I love how this thread started in July of 2016 and has 33 pages.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 29, 2017, 20:39:35
... Or not.

I heard a month ago there was a shortage of things like flying suits and NCDs, and no money for new ones.  Stopped by Clothing today...still a shortage of operational kit.  Can't even get t shirts and socks!   Maybe they are waiting for the year long Defence Review to be complete to decide if military mbrs need uniforms and socks.

 :pop:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Eagle Eye View on March 29, 2017, 21:11:26
We should start a GoFundMe page and raise money to get decent uniforms that won't fall apart after 4 months. Oh and don't forget boots as well...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on March 30, 2017, 07:49:30
A little something from the DND Info-machine (https://goo.gl/NDpPGl) (also attached in case the link doesn't work for you) on what the CAF's already up to in Congo ...
Quote
On Operation CROCODILE, members of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) are working to help bring peace to the volatile region of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC).

Currently, there are nine Canadian Armed Forces members serving in important leadership, planning, and liaison roles on this mission. Colonel Pierre Huet is the Task Force Commander for Operation CROCODILE, and also serves as the Deputy Chief of Staff Operations and Plans for the United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (MONUSCO) in Goma. In this latter role, he is responsible for the planning, execution, and coordination of all military operations in the DRC.

Canadians deployed on Operation CROCODILE are providing much needed advice, support, and knowledge to the nations involved with MONUSCO. Although a small group, the Canadians deployed on this mission bring a lot to the table.

“The Canadian contribution has a significant impact on the mission because of our varied experience and education,” says Colonel Huet.  “Our willingness to work hard and our can-do attitude make a big difference with the mission.”

One of the Canadian contingent’s main tasks is liaising with the Forces armées de la République démocratique du Congo (FARDC), offering mentorship and planning assistance to their forces. In the DRC, MONUSCO operations are conducted against armed groups on a monthly or even weekly basis, keeping the Canadian forces very busy with liaising and planning.

Over the course of this operation, the drive and determination of the CAF members and their partners from diverse nations has led to many successes and noteworthy moments.

In July 2016, Colonel Huet assisted with the extraction of more than 750 South Sudanese people who were under threat in the jungles of the DRC. They now reside in the safe custody of UN forces in Goma, DRC.

During his tour on Operation CROCODILE, Colonel Huet has been working to implement two operating concepts that have been approved by the Force Commander and the FARDC. These concepts are currently under development and testing for future use.

The first, Concept Weaponize, regulates how the MONUSCO Force Intervention Brigade conducts offensive and targeted operations against armed groups in the DRC. The second is the Combat Liaison Support Team. This concept will form small teams of soldiers who will mentor the commanders of the FARDC. Mainly, they will assist the FARDC with the execution and planning of missions at the formation headquarters level.

“Canadian Armed Forces members are working to strengthen the Congolese army,” says Colonel Huet. “By providing our experience and expertise to them, we will help them to grow and learn as an organization, making them more efficient on the ground.”

Operation CROCODILE is Canada’s military contribution to MONUSCO. This mission aims to protect civilians, facilitate peacebuilding, and prevent armed conflict in the DRC. Initiated in 1999 under the rubric of MONUC, and later rebranded as MONUSCO in 2010, the mission draws on the support of approximately 17 000 soldiers from 54 nations worldwide.
... as well as a Global Affairs Canada info-machine statement (https://goo.gl/icf9Yk) on whazzup in Congo:
Quote
The Honourable Chrystia Freeland, Minister of Foreign Affairs, today issued the following statement:

“Canada is deeply troubled by the escalation of violence and the worsening political situation in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).

“I am horrified by the continued violence in the Kasaï provinces, including recent reports of beheadings of ambushed police officers, as well as the discovery of the remains of two missing UN investigators and their Congolese translator. Our thoughts are with the families of the victims.

“We condemn these violent acts and remain deeply concerned about the resurgent violence and human rights violations committed in the country in recent months.

“Dialogue between the government and the opposition is now needed more than ever, as is an investigation of any human rights violations to ensure the perpetrators are held accountable.

“We join the international calls for all parties in the DRC to fully implement the political agreement facilitated by the National Episcopal Conference of the Congo (CENCO) on December 31, 2016. This includes the appointment of a prime minister from the opposition and paving the way for early elections, in accordance with the terms of the agreement.”
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on April 01, 2017, 00:13:01
A little something from the DND Info-machine (https://goo.gl/NDpPGl) (also attached in case the link doesn't work for you) on what the CAF's already up to in Congo ...... as well as a Global Affairs Canada info-machine statement (https://goo.gl/icf9Yk) on whazzup in Congo:

Belgium has done an excellent job with their former colonies. Almost as good as Portugal. Now we can pick up the mess, or (hopefully) not.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: George Wallace on April 01, 2017, 13:08:49
Belgium has done an excellent job with their former colonies. Almost as good as Portugal. Now we can pick up the mess, or (hopefully) not.

Was Somalia not a Portuguese Colony?


Opps!  I think I am missing the sarcasm......Sorry.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Brasidas on April 01, 2017, 13:55:12
Was Somalia not a Portuguese Colony?


Opps!  I think I am missing the sarcasm......Sorry.

Sarcasm or not, Somalia was an Italian colony and the Portugese never made a serious bid for it.

Trying to imagine a "good" place to go, and I'm coming up empty.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on April 01, 2017, 14:07:27
Brasidas: There was also British Somaliland:

Quote
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britishempire.co.uk%2Fimages3%2Fbritishsomalilandmap.jpg&hash=ba425964357e8b18dd3b057a07545ecd)
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/britishsomaliland.htm

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on April 01, 2017, 14:14:28
A rare time when I agree with the Crvena Zvezda (PM Justin Trudeau: Ditherer-in-Chief?):

Quote
Canada should not promise on peacekeeping and fail to deliver: Editorial
When it comes to peacekeeping, better to deliver on a more modest commitment than to make ambitious declarations and then balk at carrying them out.

By Star Editorial Board

Follow the bouncing ball:

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Feb. 16, 2016: “We are determined to revitalize Canada’s role in peacekeeping.”

Toronto Star, July 14, 2016: “Canadian troops will soon be headed to Africa as the federal government makes plans for a new peacekeeping mission.”

Justin Trudeau, Dec. 4, 2016: “We have a dangerous world right now... and we cannot simply sit back and say ‘we’re not going to do anything about it’.”

Justin Trudeau, March 25, 2017: “We have a difficult history in Africa as peacekeepers… That’s a decision we’re not going to fast-track.”

What a difference a few months make. A government so eager to get back into peacekeeping, to have Canada “step up” and assume its responsibilities as a committed member of the United Nations, now hesitates at the water’s edge.

There are plenty of understandable reasons for this. The international landscape has changed dramatically with the election of Donald Trump. UN missions in Africa are dangerous and difficult. They are more akin to counter-insurgency than to traditional blue helmet operations.

Taking time to get it right makes sense. But Canada’s drawn-out hesitation waltz carries its own risks, and they are undermining the very purpose of the government’s original intent.

It was just over a year ago that Trudeau pledged Canada was back as a staunch member of the UN and formally announced his government’s intention to win back a seat on the Security Council at the first opportunity.

And it was seven months ago that the government outlined in some detail the scale of its commitment to peace operations: $450 million over three years and up to 600 troops.

The UN and key allies welcomed the move warmly. France, in particular, is eager for help as its soldiers battle Islamic extremists in Mali. And as far back as November, UN officials were saying Canadian troops were urgently needed in Mali, where more peacekeepers have died than anywhere else in the organization’s long history with such operations.

But now, as the government quite clearly pushes any mission to Africa onto the back burner, it runs the risk of letting down the very allies whose hopes and expectations it deliberately raised. Already, a Belgian general has been put in command of the UN’s Mali mission, a position that was being held open for a Canadian.

What are our allies to think? If 2017 drags on with no decision, they will be hard-pressed not to conclude that when it comes to peacekeeping, Canada is all talk, no action [emphasis added]. If committing troops to a difficult mission was key to making Canada’s case to rejoin the Security Council, surely failing to commit them will undermine that same case.

At this point, it seems better for the government to figure out exactly what it is prepared to do and how much risk it is ready to assume, and then carry through with that. Better to deliver on a more modest commitment than to make ambitious declarations and then balk at actually carrying them out.

The world is clearly ready to welcome Canada back to a more active role in peacekeeping, peace support, and similar operations. The government needs to do a better job of matching its rhetoric with the reality it is ready to deliver on the ground [emphasis added].
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2017/03/31/canada-should-not-promise-on-peacekeeping-and-fail-to-deliver-editorial.html

Indeed, what must allies and friends think?  Donald Trump, if he should notice?  Certainly SecDef Mattis and SecState Tillerson will.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: jollyjacktar on April 02, 2017, 12:52:18
They need to get used to the idea of the PM promising and reneging, like the rest of us.

It's Trudeau time!.... everybody dance.  And take selfies. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MarkOttawa on April 03, 2017, 20:06:03
The seemingly endless dither--by Col. (ret'd) George Petrolekas (note budget aspect--what about personnel availability too?):

Quote
Canada's peacekeeping conundrum: Will we ever make a choice?

by George Petrolekas

The Globe and Mail
April 2, 2017

Many have questioned what happened to the government’s promise to dispatch up to 600 Canadians on a peacekeeping mission, a major pillar of the Liberal campaign platform and part of its “Canada is back” mantra.

With a major peacekeeping conference scheduled this fall, the government has to choose one of two things: Abandon the promise to enter into peacekeeping operations or restart the process to find the location which will be most suitable for Canada.

The decisions the government considers will be influenced by Canada’s fiscal condition – especially as concerns the defence budget. Also, the Trump administration’s review of UN funding and the utility of UN missions recently announced at the UN by U.S. ambassador Nikki Haley will be in contradiction to the government’s desire to reinforce the “Canada is back” idea, and equally affect the presumptive search for a Security Council seat.

Throughout the fall of 2016, the defence minister and government officials visited nations in Africa as possible deployment locations meeting the government’s aspirations of having a measurable impact while garnering support from African nations in the quest of a Security Council seat.

Informed observers expected a Christmas announcement of Mali as the preferred location, a place where we would be combatting radical Islamists, avoiding missions where UN forces had tainted reputations, by aligning with NATO allies such as France, the Netherlands and Germany.

The expected announcement never materialized.

The current defence budget, which has shifted spending to years in the future and already the cause of belt-tightening within the services, may not accommodate another overseas mission on top of current engagements in Iraq, the Ukraine and the upcoming mission to Latvia without financially stressing the Armed Forces. A cash-strapped forces will have to tell the government what it can and can no longer do [emphasis added--will the CAF leadership do so?].

Though Canada is one of a handful of nations that pays its own way, the current Trump administration review of UN financing threatens missions where some nations are reliant on UN funding to participate.

Therefore, certain missions may simply be closed or reduced because of lack of financing. The result will be fewer missions, no matter the conditions on the ground, and with fewer missions, there will be fewer choices for Canada on where to have an impact. Canada is also waiting for an indication of where the U.S. administration will focus its international efforts.

Canada’s conundrum does not stop there.

In the concentrated effort to find the correct role and location for Canada, UN authorities offered Canada specific roles, leadership positions, non-military roles and staff positions in areas in which Canada had indicated an interest. With Canada delaying a commitment, the UN has had to look elsewhere to fill gaps that were presumed to be filled by Canadians.

What may have been clear plans or understandings during the fall no longer exist as the UN has had to make alternative plans without Canada. That is why the government finds itself back at the starting gate again. Africa had been pre-eminent in the government’s planning, in part because there has been a large cohort within Foreign Affairs and Cabinet that felt the most pressing humanitarian, state-building or conflict-prevention roles rested in a myriad of African nations, names familiar in the long list of despairs: the Congo, the Central African Republic, South Sudan, Niger and Mali, among others. In the government’s calculations it could do good, and also garner support for a Security Council seat, particularly amongst nations of the Francophonie.

However, without a mission – especially “a mission that will have an impact,” in the words of the government – it is difficult to see a pathway where the very large African voting bloc in the General Assembly of the UN would support a Canadian candidacy for a Security Council seat.

As a consequence, there have already been trial policy balloons floated by allied states suggesting alternative locations not limited to Africa.

With a peacekeeping conference scheduled for the fall, the government has to simply decide: Does it want to do good, and leverage its actions for a Security Council seat, or does it want to appease key allies and be willing to pay for its decisions? It cannot do all at the same time, and therefore has to make a choice – and time is not on its side.

George Petrolekas is a fellow with the Canadian Global Affairs Institute. He served with the military in Bosnia and Afghanistan and was an adviser to senior NATO commanders.
http://www.cgai.ca/opedapril22017

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Hamish Seggie on April 07, 2017, 13:29:56
It's not a place (UN missions to Africa) we should be sticking our nose into as far as I'm concerned.

Amen brother.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on April 08, 2017, 00:31:21
Amen brother.

History proves that European wars have killed more people than every other war put together.

That should be our main peacekeeping focus.... through providing a credible deterrent to Russian aggression.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: GR66 on April 08, 2017, 09:01:39
History proves that European wars have killed more people than every other war put together.

That should be our main peacekeeping focus.... through providing a credible deterrent to Russian aggression.

Reference?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll)

Added:  That being said, I agree that while tragic and of general humanitarian concern, the conflicts in Africa have little impact on Canada's national interest and have relatively small chance of expanding to conflicts which pose serious risks to global/Canadian security.  I seriously doubt that any intervention by Canada in these conflicts can have anything more than a symbolic impact and agree that our limited capabilities should be much more effectively focused elsewhere.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Rifleman62 on May 03, 2017, 19:30:35
Latest attack of several. Still want that Security Council seat Mr. Trudeau?

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/05/03/520493/Mali-UN-Peacekeeper-Rocket-Attack

1 killed, 9 wounded in attack on UN Mali camp - Wed May 3, 2017 6:28PM


Shelling and rocket fire on a UN camp in the troubled Malian city of Timbuktu killed one person and wounded nine peacekeepers, the United Nations mission in the country said Wednesday.

"A mortar and rocket attack was launched against the MINUSMA camp in Timbuktu," a UN statement said, using the UN mission's acronym.

"The provisional toll is nine wounded among the peacekeepers, four seriously who are being evacuated to Bamako. The attack also killed one person, they are still being identified," it added.

The UN mission said it had reinforced the camp's defenses and deployed air cover to identify where the enemy fire had originated, describing it as a "terrorist" attack.

Sweden's armed forces also confirmed one of its soldiers was wounded, though not severely. "A Swedish soldier was lightly injured and is now being cared for by the Swedish medical unit," it said in a statement

The UN mission in Mali is considered its most dangerous active peacekeeping deployment.

Unknown gunmen have attacked a United Nations police base in the Malian city of Timbuktu, the UN said, while security sources said a Malian army checkpoint in the city had also come under fire.

Olivier Salgado, spokesman for the UN peacekeeping mission in Mali (MINUSMA), told Al Jazeera the assailants launched the attack after they detonated a car bomb at the base at 6:30am on Friday.

He said one policeman was slightly wounded in the assault, and the attackers remained holed up inside the base.

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on May 03, 2017, 22:39:01
Latest attack of several. Still want that Security Council seat Mr. Trudeau?

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/05/03/520493/Mali-UN-Peacekeeper-Rocket-Attack

1 killed, 9 wounded in attack on UN Mali camp - Wed May 3, 2017 6:28PM


Shelling and rocket fire on a UN camp in the troubled Malian city of Timbuktu killed one person and wounded nine peacekeepers, the United Nations mission in the country said Wednesday.

"A mortar and rocket attack was launched against the MINUSMA camp in Timbuktu," a UN statement said, using the UN mission's acronym.

"The provisional toll is nine wounded among the peacekeepers, four seriously who are being evacuated to Bamako. The attack also killed one person, they are still being identified," it added.

The UN mission said it had reinforced the camp's defenses and deployed air cover to identify where the enemy fire had originated, describing it as a "terrorist" attack.

Sweden's armed forces also confirmed one of its soldiers was wounded, though not severely. "A Swedish soldier was lightly injured and is now being cared for by the Swedish medical unit," it said in a statement

The UN mission in Mali is considered its most dangerous active peacekeeping deployment.

Unknown gunmen have attacked a United Nations police base in the Malian city of Timbuktu, the UN said, while security sources said a Malian army checkpoint in the city had also come under fire.

Olivier Salgado, spokesman for the UN peacekeeping mission in Mali (MINUSMA), told Al Jazeera the assailants launched the attack after they detonated a car bomb at the base at 6:30am on Friday.

He said one policeman was slightly wounded in the assault, and the attackers remained holed up inside the base.
If he did,

1. Soldiers would be deployed already.

2. They would be there in a combat role

3. They would be going to the more dangerous missions.

I think we can all safely say he doesn't care about a security Council seat.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MCG on May 03, 2017, 22:42:59
It would appear some people would like to see us go to South Sudan, and they are currently getting air time through news media.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-south-sudan-famine-1.4096529
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on May 04, 2017, 00:27:33
If he did,

1. Soldiers would be deployed already.

2. They would be there in a combat role

3. They would be going to the more dangerous missions.

I think we can all safely say he doesn't care about a security Council seat.

You forgot about the three main reasons why Prince Justin wants to be a world leader, just like Daddy:

1. Ego

2. Ego

3. Ego

Watch and shoot....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on May 04, 2017, 03:28:32
You forgot about the three main reasons why Prime Minister Trudeau  wants to be a world leader, just like his father:

1. Ego

2. Ego

3. Ego

Watch and shoot....
If he wants a security Council seat to fill his ego and be a world leader, he's going about it in the worst possible fashion.

There's little chance of Canada getting it now, not after all this delaying and lack of a mission after all this time. Even if the CF does deploy, our contributions is likely to be in a safe country instead of where the UN could actually use help in fighting, and not combat oriented when the UN needs help in combat situations.

In my opinion, that SCC possibility was off the table by December,when word was our allies were starting to ask questions about the Canadian commitment and got radio silence as a response.

Also, you're a grown adult, can you not even attempt to have a  civil conversation?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 04, 2017, 03:49:38
You forgot about the three main reasons why Prince Justin wants to be a world leader, just like Daddy:

1. Ego

2. Ego

3. Ego

Watch and shoot....


Actually, I think that it ~ the promise to go on UN peacekeeping missions rather than combat missions against real enemies ~ was very good campaign tactics. I suspect that some, maybe even a few hundred thousand of 1.33 million more votes that the Liberals got over the CPC came from young, first time voters who really want a different foreign policy from the one Stephen Harper offered

That the CF is not, already, in Africa, doing something useless, is illustrative of the enormous gap between campaign rhetoric and the realities of governing.

I also suspect that the young first time voters will, likely, stay home next time ... or vote Green or NDP.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on May 04, 2017, 07:35:52

Actually, I think that it ~ the promise to go on UN peacekeeping missions rather than combat missions against real enemies ~ was very good campaign tactics. I suspect that some, maybe even a few hundred thousand of 1.33 million more votes that the Liberals got over the CPC came from young, first time voters who really want a different foreign policy from the one Stephen Harper offered

That the CF is not, already, in Africa, doing something useless, is illustrative of the enormous gap between campaign rhetoric and the realities of governing.

I also suspect that the young first time voters will, likely, stay home next time ... or vote Green or NDP.

And they are certainly getting a different twist on foreign policy, just not in the way they imagined.  I would be very happy if we stayed away from Peacekeeping Operations, particularly ones where we have no actual national interests.  Now if we were going to North Africa to kill some Islamic Extremists, I would feel differently but the French seem to be quite capable of handling that job on their own. 

The only place where I think we would have a vested interest in making security investments is Haiti and that is set to become a Policing Action, hardly a role for the CAF to play there.

If he wants a security Council seat to fill his ego and be a world leader, he's going about it in the worst possible fashion.

There's little chance of Canada getting it now, not after all this delaying and lack of a mission after all this time. Even if the CF does deploy, our contributions is likely to be in a safe country instead of where the UN could actually use help in fighting, and not combat oriented when the UN needs help in combat situations.

In my opinion, that SCC possibility was off the table by December,when word was our allies were starting to ask questions about the Canadian commitment and got radio silence as a response.

Also, you're a grown adult, can you not even attempt to have a  civil conversation?

Easy brother, I know you are raring to go but there are plenty of military misadventures to go around for everyone  8). 

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on May 04, 2017, 08:40:51
The only place where I think we would have a vested interest in making security investments is Haiti.....
Sorry, but I'm not seeing any national interests in Haiti....other than perhaps  Haitian immigrants starting to behave like other diaspora fighting for the homeland. 

If there was such a risk, based on my admittedly slim base of Haitian acquaintances, I'm not too concerned about a Caribbean version of the Tamil Tigers or an Air India 182 bombing happening any time soon.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on May 04, 2017, 08:59:41
Sorry, but I'm not seeing any national interests in Haiti....other than perhaps  Haitian immigrants starting to behave like other diaspora fighting for the homeland. 

If there was such a risk, based on my admittedly slim base of Haitian acquaintances, I'm not too concerned about a Caribbean version of the Tamil Tigers or an Air India 182 bombing happening any time soon.

The national interest is the domestic Haitian audience, just like the Ukraine.  Economically speaking, you're right that there is nothing there for us.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on May 04, 2017, 09:18:55
The national interest is the domestic Haitian audience, just like the Ukraine.  Economically speaking, you're right that there is nothing there for us.

I seem to remember that is one of the reasons we ended up staying in PaP in 04 instead of filling the Hercs with citizens and leaving.  The Americans also pointed out that there could be spill over from the narco trash running place - refugees, drug/gun running, etc, and that this was essentially in our collective back yards.  The soon to be named GG was from there and there were/are large numbers of ex-pats in political ridings that had clout in Ottawa - some of those MP's came out to visit us (Jack Layton didn't though, especially after believing a constituent that we were "terrorists" and blabbing as much at a rally in Toronto - he must have thought we'd have had him in an orange jump suit on You Tube or something).   Economically, not a lot there as HB pointed out - unless you want to try and set up a resort built on a foundation of trash somewhere...or you want to set up your own import business for dope, guns and/or people.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on May 04, 2017, 09:25:53
The national interest is the domestic Haitian audience, just like the Ukraine. 
Let's see.....

- No economic or national security  interests in Haiti;
- 1.2 million Ukrainian-Canadians (third largest grouping, after Ukraine and Russia) vs 140 thousand Haitians (97% residing in Quebec);
- narco trash running place.


If there is a CAF task, it's for the Engineers -- requiring explosives and bulldozers.   Stop throwing good money after bad.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on May 04, 2017, 10:10:26

Easy brother, I know you are raring to go but there are plenty of military misadventures to go around for everyone  8).
I honestly don't care anymore. I don't plan to be around long enough for whenever whatever government in power makes up their mind.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on May 04, 2017, 10:20:20
Let's see.....

- No economic or national security  interests in Haiti;
- 1.2 million Ukrainian-Canadians (third largest grouping, after Ukraine and Russia) vs 140 thousand Haitians (97% residing in Quebec);
- narco trash running place.


If there is a CAF task, it's for the Engineers -- requiring explosives and bulldozers.   Stop throwing good money after bad.

We need to bring the Sherman firefly back in to service  >:D
I seem to remember that is one of the reasons we ended up staying in PaP in 04 instead of filling the Hercs with citizens and leaving.  The Americans also pointed out that there could be spill over from the narco trash running place - refugees, drug/gun running, etc, and that this was essentially in our collective back yards.  The soon to be named GG was from there and there were/are large numbers of ex-pats in political ridings that had clout in Ottawa - some of those MP's came out to visit us (Jack Layton didn't though, especially after believing a constituent that we were "terrorists" and blabbing as much at a rally in Toronto - he must have thought we'd have had him in an orange jump suit on You Tube or something).   Economically, not a lot there as HB pointed out - unless you want to try and set up a resort built on a foundation of trash somewhere...or you want to set up your own import business for dope, guns and/or people.

MM

Hence my point about it being a perfect police mission.  Economically, you could also make the argument that Canadian banks (they own the Caribbean) want to keep Haitian problems out of their CARICOM countries. 

I think of my six months in Jamaica where the JDF and JCF deal with huge gun problems.  The legal process of legally obtaining a firearm is quite long in Jamaica yet the Yardies have no problem because they smuggle them from Haiti.   

Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on May 04, 2017, 11:17:16
I suspect Canada could support the French Force in Mali with our C-17 and Jercs and some specialist assistance, not just SF, but engineering, comms, etc. 
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Rifleman62 on May 04, 2017, 11:43:04
Off Topic

Quote
We need to bring the Sherman firefly back in to service
>:D

If your context was to burn the trash, then it would be the Sherman Zippo used by the USMC in the Pacific, or the Churchill (tank) Crocodile. The Firefly had a high velocity 17 pounder (76.2) cannon vice the normal 75mm. There are tank experts here, not me.

Great book read years ago: Flame Thrower Hardcover – 1956 - by Andrew Wilson https://www.amazon.ca/Flame-Thrower-Andrew-Wilson/dp/0718305221 (https://www.amazon.ca/Flame-Thrower-Andrew-Wilson/dp/0718305221)

Quote
The author retells his days as an officer serving in the Royal Armoured Corps during 1943 to 1945 in Europe. He was one of those assigned to the specialized tanks, in particular the Crocodile. The Crocodile class of tanks were fitted out to be used as flame throwers. The author found it easiest to tell the stories in third person (what Wilson did, rather than what he did). A number of the actions were in support of Canadian troops. The book was first published in 1956,
with a 1984 edition update.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on May 04, 2017, 12:55:12
Off Topic

If your context was to burn the trash, then it would be the Sherman Zippo used by the USMC in the Pacific, or the Churchill (tank) Crocodile. The Firefly had a high velocity 17 pounder (76.2) cannon vice the normal 75mm. There are tank experts here, not me.

Great book read years ago: Flame Thrower Hardcover – 1956 - by Andrew Wilson https://www.amazon.ca/Flame-Thrower-Andrew-Wilson/dp/0718305221 (https://www.amazon.ca/Flame-Thrower-Andrew-Wilson/dp/0718305221)
with a 1984 edition update.

Mea Culpa!  Thanks for the correction Rifleman, I meant the Crocodile when I said the Firefly (it being he upgunned Sherman)!  Think of the possibilities, an efficient garbage disposal service for the Island, we wouldn't have to worry about Forest Fire as they barely have any trees left (caveat being we don't stray too close to Dominican Republic of course).  The environmentalists might not like it!

Also, I accidentally hit modify on your post when I tried to quote it, sorry about that and I have fixed it to what it was (blame it on the noob moderator problems).
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Rifleman62 on May 04, 2017, 13:00:36
I have always marvelled the great difference economically between the Dominican Republic and Haiti.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on May 04, 2017, 13:46:11
I have always marvelled the great difference economically between the Dominican Republic and Haiti.
One has a Spanish ethos, the other one French. Haiti went from being one of France's most profitable colonial holdings.... to having the lowest Human Development Index in the Americas.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on May 04, 2017, 14:30:32
One has a Spanish ethos, the other one French. Haiti went from being one of France's most profitable colonial holdings.... to having the lowest Human Development Index in the Americas.
I think at one time in the Eighteenth Century Haiti had the highest per capita income in the Americas.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on May 04, 2017, 15:00:41
I suspect Canada could support the French Force in Mali with our C-17 and Jercs and some specialist assistance, not just SF, but engineering, comms, etc.
Been there (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-abroad/support-mali.page), done (a bit of) that (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-abroad-current/op-frequence.page) - could be easiest.  But is it "UN Enough"?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on May 04, 2017, 15:05:37
I think at one time in the Eighteenth Century Haiti had the highest per capita income in the Americas.
:dunno:   

I'll defer to your experience.     :-*
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on May 04, 2017, 15:23:10
:dunno:   

I'll defer to your experience.     :-*

On further reflection, it may be that one of its ports was the most prosperous in the New World, but the point is that the basket case status was self-inflicted.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on May 04, 2017, 15:26:06
I think at one time in the Eighteenth Century Haiti had the highest per capita income in the Americas.

Until the much vaunted 'slave revolt', which subsequently killed their economy but made them the heroes of 'left whingers' everywhere....
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Lightguns on May 04, 2017, 15:34:02
On further reflection, it may be that one of its ports was the most prosperous in the New World, but the point is that the basket case status was self-inflicted.

1880 to 1911 under a new constitution, Haiti was stable and wealthy  It introduced the rum and sugar industry modernization to Latin America and was a model of Caribbean agriculture.  Excessive borrowing and indebtedness to the US resulted in US occupation and a steady decline afterward.  Interestingly, Woodrow Wilson, often lionized for his principled government by the US left, is responsible for that policy.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Old Sweat on May 04, 2017, 15:39:13
Point taken, but the country has suffered from all sorts of ills since then.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on May 04, 2017, 16:53:34
Sorry, but I'm not seeing any national interests in Haiti....other than perhaps  Haitian immigrants starting to behave like other diaspora fighting for the homeland. 

If there was such a risk, based on my admittedly slim base of Haitian acquaintances, I'm not too concerned about a Caribbean version of the Tamil Tigers or an Air India 182 bombing happening any time soon.

You're kidding, right?

It's a raison d'etre COA for Les Forces Armees Canadiens.

On Les auras! :)
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: medicineman on May 05, 2017, 00:11:37
You're kidding, right?

It's a raison d'etre COA for Les Forces Armees Canadiens.

On Les auras! :)

Then Les Farces Armee de Quebec can continue going  there should they please...I'd swim home if I had a plane that got delayed there longer than a minute or two.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on May 05, 2017, 14:38:29
There is actually a case to be made for some sort of intervention in Haiti, but it will probably not be to the taste of Liberals or "liberals" anywhere, since essentially the only COA is to take over the place like the US Marines did in the first third of the 20th century and literally create new institutions from scratch. (Read Max Boot's "The Savage Wars of Peace (https://www.amazon.com/Savage-Wars-Peace-Small-American/dp/0465064930)"

Now while the Marines were there for the larger American strategic aim of preventing European colonization or influence threatening the approaches to the Panama Canal (the same considerations applied to Nicaragua in the west), they did create efficient systems of schools, customs services, postal services, road building, revenue collection and so on. The essential issue is that in the 1900's to 1930's, the modern idea of "nation building" did not exist, and the Americans seem to have assumed the locals would absorb American culture and systems through osmosis. Sadly, when they left for good in 1934, the locals simply stole everything that wasn't nailed down....

For our purposes, leveling whatever dysfunctional institutions that exist in Haiti and replacing them with "our" social, political and economic constructs would also imply a generational program to raise and train local Haitians to carry on using and maintaining them (or alternatively exporting Haitian-Canadians to Haiti to run the place and train locals). Britain took over 200 years to create Anglosphere institutions across the world (with mixed success) using these sorts of methods, so this won't be an easy sell for Canadian taxpayers.

This also isn't a job for the Armed Forces.

If we are to go into Africa as a military, I would hope it would be to kick down the door, smash groups like Boko Harum or their analogues and provide enough of a shield to allow the "nation builders" to start their work. Once again, there is a case to be made for committing resources for many decades to make it work.

As a side bar, I would also point to Neil Ferguson's "Civilization, the West and the Rest"] (https://www.amazon.com/Civilization-West-Rest-Niall-Ferguson/dp/0143122061/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1494005445&sr=1-1&keywords=neil+ferguson)"

Now while the Marines were there for the larger American strategic aim of preventing European colonization or influence threatening the approaches to the Panama Canal (the same considerations applied to Nicaragua in the west), they did create efficient systems of schools, customs services, postal services, road building, revenue collection and so on. The essential issue is that in the 1900's to 1930's, the modern idea of "nation building" did not exist, and the Americans seem to have assumed the locals would absorb American culture and systems through osmosis. Sadly, when they left for good in 1934, the locals simply stole everything that wasn't nailed down....

For our purposes, leveling whatever dysfunctional institutions that exist in Haiti and replacing them with "our" social, political and economic constructs would also imply a generational program to raise and train local Haitians to carry on using and maintaining them (or alternatively exporting Haitian-Canadians to Haiti to run the place and train locals). Britain took over 200 years to create Anglosphere institutions across the world (with mixed success) using these sorts of methods, so this won't be an easy sell for Canadian taxpayers.

This also isn't a job for the Armed Forces.

If we are to go into Africa as a military, I would hope it would be to kick down the door, smash groups like Boko Harum or their analogues and provide enough of a shield to allow the "nation builders" to start their work. Once again, there is a case to be made for committing resources for many decades to make it work.

As a side bar, I would also point to Neil Ferguson's "Civilization, the West and the Rest" (https://www.amazon.com/Civilization-West-Rest-Niall-Ferguson/dp/0143122061/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1494005445&sr=1-1&keywords=neil+ferguson) which makes a similar argument except that instead of creating and fostering social and political institutions, Ferguson's argument is that the "killer apps" of Western civilization (competition, science, the rule of law, modern medicine, consumerism, and the work ethic) can be imported and used by other cultures without necessarily tying them to the social, political and economic norms of "the West". So do "we" want to import our "killer apps" without necessarily importing our norms as well?

If we are going to argue about ideas like "Peacekeeping" we really should be grounding them to "effects" on the ground and how they support Canada's National Interest, rather than short term political gamesmanship. We all know this is about as likely as me winning the multi million dollar 6/49 grand prize.......
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on May 05, 2017, 15:24:36
If we are to go into Africa as a military, I would hope it would be to kick down the door, smash groups like Boko Harum or their analogues and provide enough of a shield to allow the "nation builders" to start their work. Once again, there is a case to be made for committing resources for many decades to make it work.

And, of course, this would need to be done within the context of maintaining and strengthening the institutions and culture surrounding the Islamic faith or, like we have seen elsewhere, we will become the enemy of everyone and not just the 'bad guys'.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on May 05, 2017, 16:55:06
... If we are to go into Africa as a military, I would hope it would be to kick down the door, smash groups like Boko Harum or their analogues and provide enough of a shield to allow the "nation builders" to start their work. Once again, there is a case to be made for committing resources for many decades to make it work ...
That bit in yellow can't happen, no matter what colour government Canada has -- most parties think in terms of mandates, not decades.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Chris Pook on May 05, 2017, 17:00:36
And, of course, this would need to be done within the context of maintaining and strengthening the institutions and culture surrounding the Islamic faith or, like we have seen elsewhere, we will become the enemy of everyone and not just the 'bad guys'.

There are three perfectly good Islamic alternatives that are worth supporting as alternatives to both Sunni and Shia Islam:

The Hashemite family of the Kingdom of Jordan who trace their lineage back to the Great Grandfather of the Prophet
The Ibadi faith, originating 20 years after the Prophet's death and before both the Sunni and Shia faiths, followed by the Sultan of Oman's family
The Ismaili faith, a branch of Shia, followed by the Aga Khan, a direct lineal descendent of Mohammed (host of PM Trudeau).

All of those gentlemen should be tightly engaged, supported and encouraged by the OECD as alternatives to both Iranian Shia and Wahabbi Sunna.  Pakistan used to be a pro-Western, liberal country, just as Persia and Afghanistan were. 

They have credentials that deserve to be supported.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: MARS on May 08, 2017, 12:39:37


I think we can all safely say he doesn't care about a security Council seat.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/un-security-council-seat-campaign-1.4101984
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: recceguy on May 08, 2017, 13:43:28
Haiti sounds like the ideal place for muslim immigration.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Colin P on May 08, 2017, 14:20:02
Well Hati is full of "African like people" and a shorter logistical tail, plus they speak French, so it's a good substitute for the real thing and sort of , kind of fills the promise sort of.....in a very Liberal Party kind of way.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on May 08, 2017, 20:54:57
All of those gentlemen should be tightly engaged, supported and encouraged by the OECD as alternatives to both Iranian Shia and Wahabbi Sunna.  Pakistan used to be a pro-Western, liberal country, just as Persia and Afghanistan were. 

They have credentials that deserve to be supported.

How would you get the Sunni and Shia to go along with this?
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Thucydides on May 08, 2017, 21:35:19
How would you get the Sunni and Shia to go along with this?

You don't. The point is to substitute a different "power source" by publicly going to these groups (not the Shiite or Sunni groups) whenever you need a sound bite, a public statement or someone from "The Islamic Community" for a photo op. You go to these groups when you are trying to write policy or understand the effects of your proposed policies. People will see who "The Strong Horse" is, at least in Canada, and while I don't think you will see mass conversions you will see a gradual delegitimization of many of the more radical groups, apologists and fronts like CAIR.

Turning the same thing on deployment will insert more options for the locals, many of whom are probably already suffering from the effects of their "traditional" overlords.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Loachman on May 08, 2017, 22:22:38
Or we will see more of the ones that we officially like bullied and killed.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: daftandbarmy on May 08, 2017, 23:29:53
You don't. The point is to substitute a different "power source" by publicly going to these groups (not the Shiite or Sunni groups) whenever you need a sound bite, a public statement or someone from "The Islamic Community" for a photo op. You go to these groups when you are trying to write policy or understand the effects of your proposed policies. People will see who "The Strong Horse" is, at least in Canada, and while I don't think you will see mass conversions you will see a gradual delegitimization of many of the more radical groups, apologists and fronts like CAIR.

Turning the same thing on deployment will insert more options for the locals, many of whom are probably already suffering from the effects of their "traditional" overlords.

That would require a level of commitment and single minded focus over a period of decades, which is impossible for an international community hooked on a 'dine, selfie and dash' style of intervention.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on May 09, 2017, 12:21:33
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/un-security-council-seat-campaign-1.4101984
They aren't winning squat. They told the world Canada was going to get back into peacekeeping and would have a mission ready by last winter.

 It's currently spring and we don't even have a destination yet.

Allies such as France were asking about it, radio silence from Canada.

 I don't care how much they spend, they aren't winning anything. When the cornerstone of you campaign is to re engage in peacekeeping, and you fail to do so, you don't have a leg to stand on.

The government probably knows that, and as a result, if their were willing to let their main play to get a security council seat fall to the wayside, they have shown with their actions(or inaction in this case) that they really don't care.

I personally don't care what some hack at the CBC says about it, if this government really wanted a security council seat the forces would be in Africa, in a trouble spot, NOW. Not sitting on its hands, looking for the safest spot to hide 600 soldiers like some NATO countries did in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on May 09, 2017, 13:30:00
That would require a level of commitment and single minded focus over a period of decades, which is impossible for an international community hooked on a 'dine, selfie and dash' style of intervention.
Not to mention democracies tied to far-less-than-decade-long electoral mandates ...
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 09, 2017, 20:37:17
They aren't winning squat. They told the world Canada was going to get back into peacekeeping and would have a mission ready by last winter.

 It's currently spring and we don't even have a destination yet.

Allies such as France were asking about it, radio silence from Canada.

 I don't care how much they spend, they aren't winning anything. When the cornerstone of you campaign is to re engage in peacekeeping, and you fail to do so, you don't have a leg to stand on.

The government probably knows that, and as a result, if their were willing to let their main play to get a security council seat fall to the wayside, they have shown with their actions(or inaction in this case) that they really don't care.

I personally don't care what some hack at the CBC says about it, if this government really wanted a security council seat the forces would be in Africa, in a trouble spot, NOW. Not sitting on its hands, looking for the safest spot to hide 600 soldiers like some NATO countries did in Afghanistan.


Actually, given how the UN works, internally (I used to work in one of the UN's major member agencies and actually participated in one (agency) election) and how votes are bought and sold, the peacekeeping mission is chump change.

It doesn't mater how disappointed France is: the Europeans are going to block-vote for Iceland, most likely.

We can buy a lot of African votes with cold, hard cash ... they don't even want Canadian peacekeepers: the fewer principled people on UN missions the better for them; all we have to do is send money.

We are, also, I read, courting China ~ and not just for a free trade deal. The Chinese would like a compliant Western client on the UNSC and they could swing a lot of votes our way.

Blue berets and sheep-crap have about equal value in the corridors of power; money talks.
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on May 09, 2017, 21:00:52

Actually, given how the UN works, internally (I used to work in one of the UN's major member agencies and actually participated in one (agency) election) and how votes are bought and sold, the peacekeeping mission is chump change.

It doesn't mater how disappointed France is: the Europeans are going to block-vote for Iceland, most likely.

We can buy a lot of African votes with cold, hard cash ... they don't even want Canadian peacekeepers: the fewer principled people on UN missions the better for them; all we have to do is send money.

We are, also, I read, courting China ~ and not just for a free trade deal. The Chinese would like a compliant Western client on the UNSC and they could swing a lot of votes our way.

Blue berets and sheep-crap have about equal value in the corridors of power; money talks.

Yep, the old French saying of "Beni-Oui-Oui" is alive and well.  The French much prefer working with Chadian and Senegalese soldiers because they will do "what they want, when they want it".
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: milnews.ca on May 12, 2017, 10:16:36
They aren't winning squat. They told the world Canada was going to get back into peacekeeping and would have a mission ready by last winter.

 It's currently spring and we don't even have a destination yet ...
And it may be a while longer yet (https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/05/12/canadas-decision-on-peacekeeping-mission-is-now-delayed-for-months.html) ...
Quote
Canada’s high-profile military mission to Africa appears off the radar for now with a decision on a deployment delayed, perhaps until fall, the Star has learned.

Political upheaval among key allies — notably the United States, France and Great Britain — is cited as the reason why Justin Trudeau’s government has pushed back its high-profile pledge to return Canada to international peacekeeping efforts.

The federal government does not want to deploy soldiers on a potentially dangerous mission only to find other nations have decided their priorities lie elsewhere, leaving Canada “stuck with a legacy mission,” one source told the Star.

One official at defence headquarters offered a blunt assessment of where the peace mission currently stood on the list of priorities. “It’s not on the radar,” said the source.

When asked about the delay, officials point to the political shake-ups around the globe, notably in Washington, where the unexpected election of Donald Trump as president and his unpredictable tenure in office so far has forced Ottawa to rethink priorities on issues from defence to trade.

But political change bubbles in other capitals too. Britons go to the polls in a general election in June. France just saw the election of a new president, Emmanuel Macron, who beat out right-wing candidate Marine Le Pen. That country has a significant military mission ongoing in Mali, one nation cited as the likely destination for the Canadian deployment.

At home, other issues are competing for attention. Next week, the Liberal government will unveil its defence policy review that will lay out a new vision for the armed forces and the promise of additional funding to pay for it.

That vision, expected to provide policy guidance for the coming two decades, will almost certainly include a nod to the record of Canadian peacekeeping around the globe. But it’s not expected to include any new details of forthcoming missions.

The government’s attention has also been distracted as the political front as the man tasked to sell that new vision — Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan — is fighting for his credibility after being forced to apologize for inflating his role as an officer during an Afghanistan offensive.

And within defence headquarters, the fallout from the surprise January ouster of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, the second-in-command of the military is still being felt ...
:waiting:
Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Journeyman on May 12, 2017, 10:50:17
Political upheaval among key allies — notably the United States, France and Great Britain — is cited as the reason why Justin Trudeau’s government has pushed back its high-profile pledge to return Canada to international peacekeeping efforts.

The federal government does not want to deploy soldiers on a potentially dangerous mission only to find other nations have decided their priorities lie elsewhere, leaving Canada “stuck with a legacy mission,” one source told the Star.

Translation:  Having repeatedly gutted Canada's combat capabilities knowing that allies show up with the requisite kit, we are now incapable of deploying unless US/UK says it's OK.

Well, the college kids should be happy;  we are at one with our third-world brethren.   Kumbaya.   :not-again:



Title: Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
Post by: Altair on May 13, 2017, 12:42:33
https://www.google.ca/amp/news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/trudeau-says-canada-taking-appropriate-amount-of-time-on-peacekeeping-decision/amp


Quote
Diplomatic sources have expressed growing impatience and frustration with what they call foot-dragging by the government after the Liberals promised last August to make up to 600 troops available for peacekeeping.

The government was leaning toward a deployment to Mali, where the UN has been charged with stabilizing the country after the central government and Tuareg rebels signed a peace agreement in 2015. The UN was hoping Canada would cont