Army.ca Forums

The Quartermaster's Stores => Equipment - General => Topic started by: GhostofJacK on April 12, 2019, 20:55:08

Title: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: GhostofJacK on April 12, 2019, 20:55:08
So we were clearing out boxes of dust collectors in the RQ and came across a triwall labeled 'Riot Helmets' with no NSN. I figure there could be someone that could help identify it.

The helmet looks like our (now older) helmets we just switched from except the back is very vertical rather than sloped. The brim seems very American except the suspension system's NSN says it's ours. It has (what feels like) a ballistic skirt to go around the back of the neck so that hints to me it's a Chimo's helmet or breaching perhaps.

Anyone have idea? The whole lot of them seem unused and just dusty. We are trying to determine to whom they should go to if not the depot.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: NavyShooter on April 14, 2019, 19:03:23
Shoot me an email at work - Bradley dot Browne at the forces stuff, and I'll see what I can dig up for you. 
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: PuckChaser on April 14, 2019, 21:49:08
Theres a NSN on the helmet liner band. CGCS should list associated items, although not sure if it does it for obsolete kit.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: NavyShooter on April 16, 2019, 08:41:47
I'm leaning towards a riot control helmet of some sort rather than EOD/breaching or something like that.

Doing some digging.

NS
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: NavyShooter on April 16, 2019, 08:48:26
Try 4240-21-AAB-0853

NS
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Target Up on April 16, 2019, 20:05:57
They came out with these when we switched over from the old steel tortoise to the gen 1 Kevlar because the godawful spring tension visors wouldn’t fit. Does the army not do IS training any more? It was some of the most fun you could have, gas guns, water canons, shield and baton. Good times.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: MJP on April 16, 2019, 20:39:11
They came out with these when we switched over from the old steel tortoise to the gen 1 Kevlar because the godawful spring tension visors wouldn’t fit. Does the army not do IS training any more? It was some of the most fun you could have, gas guns, water canons, shield and baton. Good times.

No, as the army realized that it really isn't their job.  No point in training for something that we don't do.   Domestically this is a LEO task and using the CAF against Canadians is the last last resort.

Not saying the training isn't cool, but I think politically, legally and optics wise it isn't something that will be authorized on any sort of regular basis so no point in training and holding stock.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: NavyShooter on April 17, 2019, 09:09:01
Agreed - this is probably way beyond the intent of 'aid to civil power'

I got to watch some Ottawa Police guys practicing their drills at Connaught once.  It was interesting - their 'close order drill' takes a lot of training to get right.

NS
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Blackadder1916 on April 17, 2019, 13:18:25
Agreed - this is probably way beyond the intent of 'aid to civil power'


Actually, it is exactly the intent of "aid to civil power".

Quote
Section 277 of the National Defence Act provides:

"277. Where a riot or disturbance occurs or is considered as likely to occur, the attorney general of the province in which the place where the riot or disturbance occurs or is considered as likely to occur is situated, on the initiative of the attorney general or on the receipt of notification from a judge of a superior, county or district court having jurisdiction in the place that the services of the Canadian Forces are required in aid of the civil power, may, by requisition in writing addressed to the Chief of the Defence Staff, require the Canadian Forces, or such part thereof as the Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as the Chief of the Defence Staff may designate considers necessary, to be called out on service in aid of the civil power."

All that other stuff the CAF does, filling sand bags, fighting fires, shovelling snow . . .  that's "assistance to civil authorities"

http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-eng.html?lang=eng&i=1&index=alt&srchtxt=MILITARY%20AID%20CIVIL%20AUTHORITIES
Quote
In Canada, there is a distinction made between "aid to the civil power" and "assistance to civil authorities". The former term refers to military aid provided to the provincial police forces to restore and maintain law and order. The latter term encompasses all other forms of assistance the military gives to the civil community. Examples include search and rescue operations, counter-terrorism response, emergencies (natural and man-induced), fisheries and border protection, humanitarian assistance, counter-drug operations, arms smuggling, illegal immigrants, environmental surveillance and special events.

Back in the day, that was one of the fun things to do on JLC.  It was the add-on to the course to qualify for "Base Defence Force".
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Target Up on April 17, 2019, 14:21:31
I guess those two prison riots in the Fraser Valley that we responded to in the 80s are just figments of my imagination.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: 211RadOp on April 17, 2019, 14:38:17
Or Kingston Pen in '71.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: reverse_eng on April 17, 2019, 15:24:43
Use local police, RCMP, corrections, whatever. The military shouldn't be used against citizens (inmates or other) unless it's a last resort. MJP said it best.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: MJP on April 17, 2019, 15:36:07
I guess those two prison riots in the Fraser Valley that we responded to in the 80s are just figments of my imagination.

No one said your experiences weren't valid or didn't happen.  We are 30+ years removed from that era, things change.

No one has said we wouldn't do in the future either.  However the chances are between slim and none so there is no point in holding that sort of kit or to conduct that sort of training.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Target Up on April 17, 2019, 21:40:56
Anyways. These were bought for riot control trg when tho old clip on visors would not fit the new Kevlar pisspot.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Cloud Cover on April 17, 2019, 21:55:48
True about that. The days when only the army could bring mass of numbers and specialized equipment to control, contain civil unrest are waning. After Oka and Williams lake, it isn't palatable or useful given the decades it takes to regain trust.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: NavyShooter on April 18, 2019, 12:06:55
I stand corrected ... I have learned!
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Colin P on April 18, 2019, 14:21:38
Walking through the depot in Shilo came across stacks of WWII british pattern petrol tins. I also remember going to the depot in Chilliwack, being told there are no desks in the system, yet a corner of the warehouse was stacked full of wooden ones, I said what about these? They said, oh no you can't have those, they are "obsolete".
You be surprised how much old equipment lurks in the system.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Chris Pook on April 18, 2019, 16:06:36
Use local police, RCMP, corrections, whatever. The military shouldn't be used against citizens (inmates or other) unless it's a last resort. MJP said it best.

Not an incorrect statement. 

But the Army is the Government's last resort. 

And better the Government let the Army figure out how to dismantle a riot with minimal skull cracking than having it try the tactics of Amritsar.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: dapaterson on April 18, 2019, 17:43:21


You be surprised how much old equipment lurks in the system.

If you have a 1950s vintage CAF warship, we still have spares, new in the box.

Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: daftandbarmy on April 18, 2019, 17:50:48
Use local police, RCMP, corrections, whatever. The military shouldn't be used against citizens (inmates or other) unless it's a last resort. MJP said it best.

'Citizens' who escalate the level of force beyond the capabilities of the civilian authorities to deal with the situation safely and successfully deserve to be landed on by a military force with enough of the right power and training to sort them out, matching force to force.

Hence the reason that Aid the the Civil Power/ Authourity one of our ongoing mandates, and the reason why we still need a wide range of tools and training to tailor our response to any given situation.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: quadrapiper on April 27, 2019, 20:55:06
'Citizens' who escalate the level of force beyond the capabilities of the civilian authorities to deal with the situation safely and successfully deserve to be landed on by a military force with enough of the right power and training to sort them out, matching force to force.

Hence the reason that Aid the the Civil Power/ Authourity one of our ongoing mandates, and the reason why we still need a wide range of tools and training to tailor our response to any given situation.
After a certain level of force, isn't it better, too, for it to not be police delivering it, as far as public perception? "The Army" can be dropped on a situation, do whatever civil authority requires, then more or less disappear: police are a permanent presence.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Brihard on April 27, 2019, 21:17:41
'Citizens' who escalate the level of force beyond the capabilities of the civilian authorities to deal with the situation safely and successfully deserve to be landed on by a military force with enough of the right power and training to sort them out, matching force to force.

Hence the reason that Aid the the Civil Power/ Authourity one of our ongoing mandates, and the reason why we still need a wide range of tools and training to tailor our response to any given situation.

There is now much less that police cannot handle than there used to be- be it tactical, public order, CBRN, or what have you. While having the military as a card up the state’s sleeve is still advantageous, it should be an absolute last resort in situations involving confrontations / use of force against civilians.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: ballz on April 27, 2019, 22:03:45
I am pretty sure we still do have a crowd control course on the books but it's rarely run. Personally, I think it's something we should be running training on and practicing. It'd be a lot more practical than most of the IBTS we are forced to bastardize every year.

For some reason this thread has focused on its usefulness domestically, which seems rather odd given the environments we've been operating in in the last 20-30 years and is not what I have in mind at all when I think of how it could be useful...
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: kratz on April 27, 2019, 22:21:04
There is no problem with disposing of old kit.
"Getting 'rid of kit" to clear space / ect... is just as bad as hanging on to kit.

As ballz mentioned,

Rapid aid to Haiti, ect...after a hurricane would warrant the use of this gear. 
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Colin P on April 27, 2019, 22:45:51

If you have a 1950s vintage CAF warship, we still have spares, new in the box.

You be surprised, there are likley ships out there using similar gear.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Target Up on April 27, 2019, 22:47:10
Is Internal Security, or BDF, no longer a thing?
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: kratz on April 27, 2019, 23:17:23
Quote from: Colin P
You be surprised, there are likley ships out there using similar gear.

Quote from: dapaterson
If you have a 1950s vintage CAF warship, we still have spares, new in the box.

The best CO I know, for logistics was a MARS officer....pause for your liquid support.  :whistle:
Anything that could not meet the upcoming SAV inspection, no excuses - was shoved into the rented container.

Yes. We passed the SAV.

Now.
The container is gone by end FY.
If you can't justify to pass the SAV to bring it back into the unit, dispose of it.

I'm not a supply tech, but loved hearing / experiencing this.
Sadly, this effective example is rare.
Title: Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
Post by: Ditch on September 28, 2019, 15:36:10
Is Internal Security, or BDF, no longer a thing?

Yup - with a valid QS, TP etc.  Except it’s an Airforce qualification, since we actively defend our OpsZ with ball ammunition.   CA came knocking about 3 years ago asking for help in developing their own.