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The Mess => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: Haggis on September 11, 2019, 10:53:05

Title: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on September 11, 2019, 10:53:05
I saw some election campaign signs earlier this morning on my drive to work in west Québec.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on September 11, 2019, 15:08:12
McKenna signs here in Ottawa Centre have been popping up for over a week now.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on September 11, 2019, 15:19:48
McKenna signs here in Ottawa Centre have been popping up for over a week now.

Are they allowed to do that before the writ is dropped?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on September 11, 2019, 15:24:56
Are they allowed to do that before the writ is dropped?
Subject to local by-laws, but yes.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Rifleman62 on September 11, 2019, 16:08:23
Quote
Ottawa blocks RCMP on SNC-Lavalin inquiry – The Globe and Mail #SNCLavalin #cdnpoli #elex43 https://t.co/ND65by97Nb
    — Robert Fife (@RobertFife) September 11, 2019

"Ottawa blocks" ???? Or do you mean Trudeau. If it was the CPC it would surely say "Sheer blocks".
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 11, 2019, 17:41:01
Are they allowed to do that before the writ is dropped?

Yes but the rules for the pre writ period are a bit different.  Elections Canada has a section on it on their site.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on September 11, 2019, 21:17:10
From LawFare an American perspective on PM Justin Trudeau and the October Election.

Quote
Canada’s Foreign Policy Election
By Preston Lim

Tuesday, September 10, 2019, 12:26 PM

The next Canadian federal election, which will largely pit Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Liberal Party against Andrew Scheer’s Conservative Party, is set to take place on Oct. 21. The results may be close: CBC’s Canada Poll Tracker indicates that while the Liberals are currently favored over the Conservatives to win the most seats, the two parties are “virtually tied.” The two parties are battling on a whole host of issues, ranging from climate change and the environment to the government’s economic policies. And for the first time in decades, foreign policy is set to play a large role in the Canadian electoral campaign.

Christopher Sands of the Center for Strategic and International Studies notes that foreign policy has only rarely played a key role in past Canadian federal elections. The 1988 elections, and to a lesser extent those in 1993, were fought over the idea of a free trade pact with the United States. Even in 2004, in the midst of the Iraq War, foreign policy issues surrounding the war played only a small role in the elections—though they might have had more of an impact had Prime Minister Stephen Harper not backed away from his initial, pre-2004 support for military intervention. In comparison, 2019 has already seen an unusual focus on foreign policy—largely due to a series of recent crises such as President Trump’s tearing up of NAFTA and China’s arbitrary arrest of several Canadian citizens.

Trudeau came to power in 2015 arguing in favor of a foreign policy reset—promising, for example, to end the Canadian combat mission in Iraq, take new action on climate change and revamp Canadian national security legislation. After his election, the prime minister argued that “Canada [had] lost its compassion and constructive voice in the world over the past 10 years” and affirmed, “on behalf of 35 million Canadians[,]” that Canada was back. But the new government took time to find its feet on the foreign policy file. After shuffling Foreign Minister Stéphane Dion out of the cabinet, Trudeau settled on a new foreign minister, Chrystia Freeland—who, as one columnist has argued, “began rewriting the language and priorities of Canada’s approach to foreign policy in an effort to maintain her government’s guiding principles in a world that had suddenly become hostile to them.” Freeland called for a defense of the liberal international order, arguing that in light of America’s retreat from global leadership, allied countries would have to adopt increased responsibility. She articulated the government’s approach most clearly in a June 2017 speech, which called for substantial investments in hard power and increased cooperation with like-minded countries, and affirmed the Canadian commitment to “pluralism, human rights and the rule of law.”

Yet Canada’s two main opposition parties, the New Democratic Party (NDP) and the Conservatives, have contended that while Trudeau and his government employ lofty rhetoric, the reality of Liberal foreign policy leaves much to be desired. The left-of-center NDP has consistently accused the government of only paying lip service to progressive values. As tensions have strained the relationship between Canada and Saudi Arabia, for example, the NDP has characterized Canadian policy toward the kingdom as “belated and timid.” Problems began in August 2018, when Freeland took to Twitter to call for the release of two jailed Saudi human rights activists. The Saudi Arabian government, furious at what it decried as this “break with diplomatic norms and protocol,” recalled its ambassador from Canada and later went on to recall the more than 15,000 Saudi students studying in the country. Saudi-Canadian relations would deteriorate further after the Saudi regime’s brutal murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Throughout this period, the NDP pointed out that, despite its critical rhetoric, the government steadfastly refused to cancel its $11.3 billion deal to export Canadian-made light-armored vehicles to the kingdom. The NDP has also criticized the government for not having meaningfully committed to U.N. peacekeeping operations around the globe.

In a different vein, the Conservative Party has argued that Trudeau has displayed tremendous naivité in office. Conservatives continue to cite to Trudeau’s infamous February 2018 trip to India, during which the Canadian high commissioner invited Jaspal Atwal—a Sikh extremist convicted of attempted murder after attempting to assassinate an Indian minister visiting Vancouver in 1986—to an official dinner in Delhi. The Canadian government eventually rescinded his invitation, but not before Atwal had taken photos with Trudeau’s wife. The Atwal fiasco led to a freeze-over of bilateral relations. The Conservatives have also derided Trudeau’s insistence on pushing for “progressive trade agreements,” meaning agreements that meet Liberal concerns on labor, the environment, and the rights of women and indigeneous people. The National Post, a right-leaning and well-respected paper, reveals that the Liberal government has since instructed bureaucrats to drop the term “progressive” on the grounds that the term was too “politically-loaded” and might have disrupted trade negotiations with certain countries.

But the Official Opposition’s criticisms of Trudeau truly picked up after the December 2018 arrest of Huawei Chief Financial Officer Meng Wanzhou in Canada at the request of the United States, and the resulting collapse in Sino-Canadian relations. China has retaliated by arbitrarily arresting Canadian citizens Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor and by blocking imports of Canadian pork and canola. In his May keynote foreign policy speech, Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer criticized the “total disarray in how this government has handled” China, pointing out that the government had yet to file a suit in the World Trade Organization against China’s “unjustified trade actions” against Canadian farmers. Scheer also attacked the government for its failure to appoint an ambassador to China: The previous ambassador resigned in January, and the government didn’t appoint a new envoy until Sept. 4, after Scheer’s remarks. In sum, Scheer accused Trudeau of a strategy of appeasement and pledged that a Conservative government, instead of seeking engagement with China, would “commit to like-minded democracies in the Indo-Pacific region.” MP Erin O’Toole, the Conservative Party’s shadow minister for foreign affairs, has similarly pointed out that Trudeau failed to reach out to Chinese counterparts “at senior levels to explain the extradition process” and did not converse with President Xi Jinping until June’s G-20 Summit, almost six months after Meng’s arrest.

Despite this criticism from the opposition, Trudeau does have some cards up his sleeve. Most significantly, the Trudeau government succeeded in crafting a revitalized NAFTA following Trump’s decision to renegotiate or potentially terminate the agreement. As the New York Times writes, Trudeau came away from negotiations “with a few items considered sacred for [Canada’s] economic security”—a dispute resolution system and a “distant expiration date to the agreement.” The United States also lifted tariffs on Canadian steel and aluminum, though analysts and opposition MPs were quick to note that the U.S. reserves the right to reimpose tariffs “in the event that imports of aluminum or steel products surge meaningfully beyond historic volumes.” Still, the fact that the government crafted a new NAFTA deal and avoided the tariffs comes as a relief to Canadians and will likely help the government win support in the upcoming elections. In addition, Freeland has argued that Canada today faces a uniquely challenging set of international circumstances. Given the threat of “resurgent authoritarianism” and the “weakening of the rules-based international order,” as Freeland puts it, perhaps the Liberals may convince Canadians to grant Trudeau leeway as he seeks to defend his foreign policy record.

Yet Trudeau has arguably attempted to draw the national conversation away from his foreign policy record. As the Star notes, Liberal election strategy will center on talking up “the economy—the steady growth and low unemployment.” Before Parliament broke for the summer, the prime minister and prominent Liberal MPs, when faced with tricky questions—often on foreign policy—would pivot to a new topic, leading columnist John Ivison to deride Trudeau’s style as that of “non-sequitur politics.” The normally sympathetic Aaron Wherry has likewise noted Trudeau’s dodging of questions, though Wherry provides the caveat that Parliament’s Question Period, during which Trudeau faced those challenges, is “not an ideal forum” for “substance and nuance.”

Nevertheless, Trudeau hasn’t exactly availed himself of other opportunities to explain the government’s foreign policy and has not meaningfully addressed criticisms of his foreign policy record. He took until August to deliver his first major foreign policy address of 2019, entitled “Canada’s Role on the Global Stage.” In that speech, Trudeau offered a “positive vision of Canada’s unique and multi-faceted role in an increasingly unpredictable era.” He referenced the successful negotiation of three key trade deals: the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA), the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, and the EU-Canada Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement. But rather than substantively deal with NDP and Conservative complaints with Trudeau’s foreign policy, Trudeau spent much of his speech criticizing the Conservatives. He argued that “Conservative politicians are once again relying on the politics of division” and that the “Conservatives envision a world where Canada hectors from the sidelines—where we refuse to participate, but still expect a platform from which to shout.”

As the election season comes to a close, Trudeau may continue to keep the focus off of foreign policy. Notably, whereas Andrew Scheer, Green Party Leader Elizabeth May and NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh have signed up for the Oct. 1 Munk Leaders Debate on Foreign Policy, Trudeau has declined his invitation. The Munk Debate, though not an official debate organized by the Leaders’ Debate Commission, is the only Canadian electoral debate dedicated to foreign policy. As such, Munk could provide an opportunity for Trudeau to respond to opposition criticism and to more convincingly lay out the contours of future Liberal foreign policy—but he seems not to be interested.

Despite his decision to skip Munk, Trudeau won’t be able to avoid the foreign policy discussion entirely. Trudeau has already committed to the two official October election debates, and he can be sure that both Scheer and Singh will hammer him hard on the foreign policy file.

Article Link (https://www.lawfareblog.com/canadas-foreign-policy-election) (Contains links to other webpages)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 11, 2019, 22:38:50
Driving past London drugs on Highway 97 in Vernon, noticed a few enterprising homeless chaps fastening a new ditch shelter made from Mel Arnold’s election signs. Sad.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 11, 2019, 22:54:10
I'm shocked ...

"Canadians Are Having An Unofficial Naming Contest For Trudeau's Campaign Plane & It's Getting Nasty" (https://www.narcity.com/news/ca/trudeaus-campaign-plane-is-currently-being-nick-named-on-twitter-and-its-ruthless)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on September 11, 2019, 23:45:23
I can't recall an election more suitably summed by this headline:

Election 2019 starts with voters uninspired by choices, so campaign will matter       LINK (https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/election-2019-starts-with-voters-uninspired-by-choices-so-campaign-will-matter)

For just that reason, I suspect that this may be my only post in this thread.  I'll just have to see how it plays out, while leaving the 'discussion' to the echo chamber diatribes and passive-aggressive responses of those who have it all figured out.
      :salute:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 11, 2019, 23:53:59
Some foreign media takes off the top ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 12, 2019, 19:10:15
macleans debate tonight.

Will be interesting to see the dynamic without JT there.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on September 12, 2019, 19:34:24
I got an unrequested campaign sign left on porch while I was out today.  Such littering shows not much concern about the environment.   :not-again:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 12, 2019, 19:55:38
macleans debate tonight.

Will be interesting to see the dynamic without JT there.
Debates have value but only to the candidates that the moderator likes.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on September 12, 2019, 20:06:42
You can bet much hay will be made about JT's absence. Whether it means anything remains to be seen. That being said, the Torries have to keep hammering the SNC issue.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 12, 2019, 20:13:14
You can bet much hay will be made about JT's absence. Whether it means anything remains to be seen. That being said, the Torries have to keep hammering the SNC issue.

Apparently they will still have a podium for Trudeau.  That will have an impact.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 12, 2019, 21:49:20

Interesting debate so far.  Singh is doing quite well.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 13, 2019, 00:25:51
You can bet much hay will be made about JT's absence. Whether it means anything remains to be seen. That being said, the Torries have to keep hammering the SNC issue.

The Tories need to come out with a solid platform and some positive messaging. Anyone whose vote was going to swing with scandal made up their mind months ago. Tactically, Scheer showed political immaturity in going off half-cocked in the early spring with shrill demands for resignation. He left himself nowhere further to take it. Show some actual leadership, and give Canada a sense of vision in the form of policies, legislative approaches, and viable, practical, and legal solutions to problems beyond “we want to be in power but aren’t”.

(Edit for typo)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 13, 2019, 07:14:46
The stories need to come out with a solid platform and some positive messaging. Anyone whose vote was going to swing with scandal made up their mind months ago. Tactically, Scheer showed political immaturity in going off half-cocked in the early spring with shrill demands for resignation. He left himself nowhere further to take it. Show some actual leadership, and give Canada a sense of vision in the form of policies, legislative approaches, and viable, practical, and legal solutions to problems beyond “we want to be in power but aren’t”.

Well said.

And a lot of people are saying that.  Although Scheer performed ok last night he kept avoiding questions and tried to give canned messages about Trudeau regardless of what was being asked.  I get it, his tactic was to focus on JT but his party’s actual plan was lost in that noise. After last night I know a lot more about the green’s and NDP’s plans than I do the CPC’s. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 13, 2019, 08:06:11
The stories need to come out with a solid platform and some positive messaging ... Show some actual leadership, and give Canada a sense of vision in the form of policies, legislative approaches, and viable, practical, and legal solutions to problems beyond “we want to be in power but aren’t”.
Agreed - but in today's environment of social media weaponization, I suspect memes & other shrill demi-truths may sway more people than discussion of issues.  I read platform documents, but I'm guessing not many other people do.

And as for the stories coming out, if you mean the literal definition via MSM, all the candidates can control is what they say, not what's written/said.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 13, 2019, 11:54:50
Agreed - but in today's environment of social media weaponization, I suspect memes & other shrill demi-truths may sway more people than discussion of issues.  I read platform documents, but I'm guessing not many other people do.

And as for the stories coming out, if you mean the literal definition via MSM, all the candidates can control is what they say, not what's written/said.

It would be interesting to see research on voter susceptibility to different forms of messaging like this. I suspect that while things like memes and such produce a great deal of noise, most of it is probably expended within echo chambers and mostly just nods along with opinions already held. I have a great deal of people with different views on my Facebook, and I see both sides of this pretty loudly at times. My consistent observation has been that most of the shares and likes are by people whose political opinions have come across as quite crystallized for a long time already. I struggle to think of anyone where I've seen observable shift in political views that have manifested themselves that way. I suspect that among individuals whose votes are up for grabs, social media white noise is probably not a major factor.

Now, I'm not saying that memes and other online angstiness has zero impact. I expect it has some. But I'm leery of overselling the impact that echo-chamber clickbait has on the swayable votes.

Where I *do* think it may have an impact is in taking existent, firm views, and pushing them to be more crystallized and potentially extreme. I've seen few people change their views on social media. I've seen a whole lot from various political factions who've goten angrier, dumber, and more impermeable to other points of views, because increasingly their feeds get filled only with what they want to hear, and increasingly they are surrounded by people who will all mutually reinforce that anyone with 'other' views is (insert perjorative here).
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 13, 2019, 12:29:00
I'm shocked ...

"Canadians Are Having An Unofficial Naming Contest For Trudeau's Campaign Plane & It's Getting Nasty" (https://www.narcity.com/news/ca/trudeaus-campaign-plane-is-currently-being-nick-named-on-twitter-and-its-ruthless)
And on the other side …
"Andrew Scheer Just Shared A Video Of His New Private Jet & Canadians Aren't Impressed" (https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/andrew-scheer-just-shared-a-video-of-his-new-private-jet-and-canadians-arent-impressed/ar-AAH8XxZ?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout&fbclid=IwAR0Wk7x96uRMtEFuRNLx8pExl8mralcIIWqKrgzmiHTzPifJEFE1eB2Inrw)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 13, 2019, 14:02:11
>Although Scheer performed ok last night he kept avoiding questions and tried to give canned messages about Trudeau regardless of what was being asked.

I suppose the CPC has "data" that tell the party it is an effective strategy.  This would be in spite of the conventional political wisdom that opposition parties must do more than hope to coast to victory on the voters' dislike of the incumbents.  This time it will be different, you see.  I thought they'd clue in after seeing how quickly the Ethics Commissioner's report disappeared from the news
cycle.  That, coupled with the following weeks of polling results, suggests that many minds are already made up with respect to how far perceptions of scandal are going to move the dial.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 13, 2019, 14:41:10
Sheer's greatest asset?

He doesn't look and act like that robot, Harper :)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 13, 2019, 17:29:57
>Although Scheer performed ok last night he kept avoiding questions and tried to give canned messages about Trudeau regardless of what was being asked.

I suppose the CPC has "data" that tell the party it is an effective strategy.  This would be in spite of the conventional political wisdom that opposition parties must do more than hope to coast to victory on the voters' dislike of the incumbents.  This time it will be different, you see.  I thought they'd clue in after seeing how quickly the Ethics Commissioner's report disappeared from the news
cycle.  That, coupled with the following weeks of polling results, suggests that many minds are already made up with respect to how far perceptions of scandal are going to move the dial.

One would hope that they would stick to telling Canadians what they have to offer.  But hope is the first step towards disapointment.

I suspect they will do what they did last time and keep hammering blindly hoping it will have an effect.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 13, 2019, 19:34:14
It would be interesting to see research on voter susceptibility to different forms of messaging like this.

Now, I'm not saying that memes and other online angstiness has zero impact. I expect it has some. But I'm leery of overselling the impact that echo-chamber clickbait has on the swayable votes.


Brihard, there are studies on that very topic.  This article discusses certain factors that make people believe or not believe memes based on likes and who exactly likes them.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-11-ill-meme.html

But when we live in a world where people believe that all news is fake news because someone they agree with says it umpteen times I doubt that experts who study this stuff will be believed. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on September 13, 2019, 21:07:49
Trudeau's performance last night will probably go down in history as his best outing.


Note to Ms May - when you invoke the modern equivalent of Godwin, you lose all credibility.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on September 13, 2019, 21:46:36
Note to Ms May - when you invoke the modern equivalent of Godwin, you lose all credibility.

I don't know what she said, but Mr. Godwin had this to say about Godwin's Law,

Quote
By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with you.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170814002835/https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/web/20170814002835/https:/twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320

Quote
If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump, or any other politician.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170209163428/https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/14/sure-call-trump-a-nazi-just-make-sure-you-know-what-youre-talking-about/?utm_term=.2b78480fe90e

But when we live in a world where people believe that all news is fake news because someone they agree with says it umpteen times I doubt that experts who study this stuff will be believed.

Negative news = fake news?

Perhaps some may find the "How to Spot Fake News" attachment helpful,

















Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 13, 2019, 22:42:19
>But I'm leery of overselling the impact that echo-chamber clickbait has on the swayable votes.

I doubt the impact is meaningful.  Echo-chamber propaganda rarely escapes the echo chamber, where the audience is already committed.  Given findings that deeply politically engaged people overestimate the engagement of the rest of the population, I suppose the undecided fraction is much more likely to be swayed by whatever makes the first 15 minutes of the evening news or front pages of the major dailies.

"Fake" news from obviously fringe sources is a much lesser problem than "fake" news from mainstream sources, because in the latter case credibility is more readily assumed.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on September 14, 2019, 00:16:40
Personally this election cycle I am not being drawn by the under whelming performance of any of the major parties. As a result I have been drawn to and likely will vote Veterans Coalition Party come October. For being a new party they have managed candidates in almost every riding. While I doubt they will win a seat, best case they get one, they have a solid platform that could appeal to many voters if they got the message out such as making CPP Tax free, or rebuilding the New veterans Charter.

https://veteranscoalitionpartyofcanada.ca/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on September 14, 2019, 09:11:37
https://veteranscoalitionpartyofcanada.ca/
Hmm, learn something new every day.  I had to Google, since I'd never heard of them;  my riding doesn't have a candidate (of course, so far we have only Libs, Con, and PPC -- no NDP or Greens).

Being so fringe, I suspect any votes would have an effect similar to a spoiled ballot.  :dunno:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on September 14, 2019, 09:22:20
Hmm, learn something new every day.  I had to Google, since I'd never heard of them;  my riding doesn't have a candidate (of course, so far we have only Libs, Con, and PPC -- no NDP or Greens).

Being so fringe, I suspect any votes would have an effect similar to a spoiled ballot.  :dunno:

While I would say true in this case, apparently elections Canada hasn't verified their candidates yet, and they have until Sept30th to file all required documents. While it might be a spoiled ballot, it can eventually translate to seats given an election or two. Enough people vote though and the popular vote shows they the have traction can make the difference later down the road.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on September 14, 2019, 16:49:02
Got to love Trudeau

The risk of stealing equity in your home...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-cannabis-loss-1.5282994

Then taxxing your gains up to 5 years instead of just needing to stay in a place for one year...

Justin Trudeau’s secret plan to tax homeowners - Canada's Official Opposition
https://www.conservative.ca/justin-trudeaus-secret-plan-to-tax-homeowners/

I have a few buddies who flip houses and this will wipe them out. How are these not huge deals? Potentially wiping out tens of thousands of dollars from your pocketbook, but no one cares?

Sorry I am pissed, because it directly affects me and my planning for my circumnavigation.

Guess my only realistic voting option is the right.
Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 14, 2019, 17:35:04
Not a fan of JT but that Conservative ad is misleading, even disinformation. The proposal from the Liberals is for a 1% tax applied to buyers who are both non resident and non Canadian. In particular, it is an attempt to discourage purchasing of real estate in Canada through means of unexplained wealth. Buying a fixer upper, polishing it up, then selling it as a principal residence is not going to trigger that tax. That activity is exactly what we need more of, and not this continuous real estate pornography show of opulent, wasteful homes that are rarely/ barely occupied.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on September 14, 2019, 19:10:47
Not a fan of JT but that Conservative ad is misleading, even disinformation. The proposal from the Liberals is for a 1% tax applied to buyers who are both non resident and non Canadian. In particular, it is an attempt to discourage purchasing of real estate in Canada through means of unexplained wealth. Buying a fixer upper, polishing it up, then selling it as a principal residence is not going to trigger that tax. That activity is exactly what we need more of, and not this continuous real estate pornography show of opulent, wasteful homes that are rarely/ barely occupied.

I will have to go looking for another more legitimate source.. but this one is what I based my thoughts off of.

Maybe I misread or am being misled.

I thought you might be interested in this blog post authored by Garth Turner: The house tax. You can view it at this link: https://www.greaterfool.ca/2019/09/13/the-house-tax-2/

Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on September 14, 2019, 19:36:34
Not a fan of JT but that Conservative ad is misleading, even disinformation. The proposal from the Liberals is for a 1% tax applied to buyers who are both non resident and non Canadian. In particular, it is an attempt to discourage purchasing of real estate in Canada through means of unexplained wealth. Buying a fixer upper, polishing it up, then selling it as a principal residence is not going to trigger that tax. That activity is exactly what we need more of, and not this continuous real estate pornography show of opulent, wasteful homes that are rarely/ barely occupied.

Apparently this is different and is not the 1% annual tax on foreign ownership of houses. This was allegedly proposed by Adam Vaughn and would apply to every homeowner in Canada. I have not seen the Liberals formally announce it, but I could sure see it being snuck into the next omnibus budget bill, if they get re-elected.

Could you imagine the effect it would have on the CAF alone, at posting season in 2020? Who could afford to move and sell a house, taking a captial gains beating every few years?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 14, 2019, 20:20:11
This all seems to be based on the attached document (fragment?) shared via various Conservative sources.  Didn't seem to make it into the platform document (which I know some will say is not worth the paper/electrons it's printed on) - also attached.  Also for the record, I've attached what buddy whose name is on the first document had to say.

All that said ...
... I could sure see it being snuck into the next omnibus budget bill, if they get re-elected ...
:nod: #CaveatVoter
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 14, 2019, 20:28:40
Apparently this is different and is not the 1% annual tax on foreign ownership of houses. This was allegedly proposed by Adam Vaughn and would apply to every homeowner in Canada. I have not seen the Liberals formally announce it, but I could sure see it being snuck into the next omnibus budget bill, if they get re-elected.

Could you imagine the effect it would have on the CAF alone, at posting season in 2020? Who could afford to move and sell a house, taking a captial gains beating every few years?

It looks like it might be a misrepresentation.

https://ipolitics.ca/2019/09/13/tory-allegation-of-secret-trudeau-tax-plan-a-blatant-misrepresentation-liberal-incumbent-says/

So far I’ve only seen the 1% foreign buyers tax (a good thing as far as I can tell)

And the first time homebuyers shared equity plan.  Depending on where you stand it could be a good thing if you want a house but are ok sharing 10% of the value with the government.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 14, 2019, 20:56:30
So the debate does not seem to have negatively impacted the LPC.  I wasn’t sure how it would affect them given their absence.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

I guess we’ll see what next week brings.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on September 14, 2019, 21:06:11
https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=1779649&binId=1.1145463&playlistPageNum=1#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=IgUUCEB


VCP leader gets some spotlight
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Thucydides on September 14, 2019, 23:41:48
Interesting that so far there has been no mention of the PPC. While they don't have much in the way of resources and had limited time to get organized, I found it very interesting to see how quickly they had fielded almost the full 338 slate (even before the Liberals). Even with a virtual media blackout they still seem to be able to draw on a very broad base, and I suspect it may be deeper than some people imagine (Maxime Bernier came to London last week with limited notice and drew a crowd of about 500 supporters).

To me this suggests the PPC may well have a spoiler role in the election as a minimum, drawing a lot more votes than people are expecting. Talking to some PPC supporters, they also believe that there is a large pool of disgruntled and undecided voters out there who have not been on anyone's radar to date. I can certainly believe there are a lot of voters who are disgruntled by what is on offer by the traditional parties. How willing they are to try out the PPC is a different story.

I personally will be very interested to see how well they do.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 15, 2019, 09:40:26
I'll be interested to see how they fare too, inasmuch as I'm interested and concerned to see the rise of any populist movement within a democracy. Canada thus far has done reasonably well at resisting the incursion of populism and nationalism into our electoral politics. The PPC have offered themselves up as the pressure release valve for that. It will be interesting to see how many voters take them up on the opportunity.

I'm quite confident (and very hopeful) that they will top out as 'also-rans'. I hope Bernier will not be reelected- it would be a shame to see his tantrum rewarded. Polling data is dubious; that said his riding right now is sitting with a slight CPC edge on Bernier, though it's flipped back and forth within the margin of error. It's a toss up right now. They don't have a snowball's hope in hell of any other seat.

Worst case for Canada as it regards the PPC is they get enough traction that they split enough votes in enough ridings to matters. Pretty much any gain to them will be at CPC expense. Politically and ideologically there's basically nowhere else for them to draw support from; they're trying to shave off the far right of the CPC, and maybe pull in other populists who otherwise wouldn't vote. While the PPC won't take any ridings beyond potentially Beauce, they conceivably could throw enough seats Liberal to give them another majority.

I'm beginning to get concerned. We've all heard at great length about how much the Liberals suck. Got it. Message has sunk in if and where it's going to. It doens't look to be doing the trick though. The friggin' conservatives need to quit dicking around and get out there with some solid 'why you should vote for us'. While 36 days is a long time in an election and a lot can happen, thus far they just haven't really shown up to play- and I'm not talking about the silly theatrics and snarkiness of the televised debates, but actually articulating and pushing real solid positive platform items.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on September 15, 2019, 11:16:35
I'm beginning to get concerned. We've all heard at great length about how much the Liberals suck. Got it. Message has sunk in if and where it's going to. It doesn't look to be doing the trick though.

And the polls seem to agree with you.  As of yesterdays's 338Canada projections Team Trudeau is solidly in majority territory.

The friggin' conservatives need to quit dicking around and get out there with some solid 'why you should vote for us'. While 36 days is a long time in an election and a lot can happen, thus far they just haven't really shown up to play- and I'm not talking about the silly theatrics and snarkiness of the televised debates, but actually articulating and pushing real solid positive platform items.

The Conservatives are on the defensive on a number of fronts and the Liberals have seized the initiative from Scheer. It may be too late already.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jonezy76 on September 15, 2019, 11:56:11
I'll be interested to see how they fare too, inasmuch as I'm interested and concerned to see the rise of any populist movement within a democracy. Canada thus far has done reasonably well at resisting the incursion of populism and nationalism into our electoral politics. The PPC have offered themselves up as the pressure release valve for that. It will be interesting to see how many voters take them up on the opportunity.

I'm quite confident (and very hopeful) that they will top out as 'also-rans'. I hope Bernier will not be reelected- it would be a shame to see his tantrum rewarded. Polling data is dubious; that said his riding right now is sitting with a slight CPC edge on Bernier, though it's flipped back and forth within the margin of error. It's a toss up right now. They don't have a snowball's hope in hell of any other seat.

Worst case for Canada as it regards the PPC is they get enough traction that they split enough votes in enough ridings to matters. Pretty much any gain to them will be at CPC expense. Politically and ideologically there's basically nowhere else for them to draw support from; they're trying to shave off the far right of the CPC, and maybe pull in other populists who otherwise wouldn't vote. While the PPC won't take any ridings beyond potentially Beauce, they conceivably could throw enough seats Liberal to give them another majority.

I'm beginning to get concerned. We've all heard at great length about how much the Liberals suck. Got it. Message has sunk in if and where it's going to. It doens't look to be doing the trick though. The friggin' conservatives need to quit dicking around and get out there with some solid 'why you should vote for us'. While 36 days is a long time in an election and a lot can happen, thus far they just haven't really shown up to play- and I'm not talking about the silly theatrics and snarkiness of the televised debates, but actually articulating and pushing real solid positive platform items.

I'm also worried that the PPC will bleed off CPC votes. The ONLY chance to unseat Trudeau and the Libs is the Cons.. A vote for Max = a vote for Justin.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 15, 2019, 15:36:17
Taken as a whole, the PPC and it's stated principles and aims isn't particularly populist, although that depends extremely heavily on interpretation of "populist", which these days seems to be "anything further right than just right of centre".  The best course of action to stop a stampede of people who might like a populist party (they see something they like elsewhere described as "populist", so they vote for whatever they see in Canada described as "populist") is to stop lazily and incorrectly summing up the PPC as populist.  And the CPC should do to the PPC what the LPC did to the NDP last election - yank the rug CPC-ways and occupy it, firmly.  The PPC positions are mostly conservative / libertarian; that should be easy to do.

LPC supporters have made their rationalizations to pave over the ethical cracks.  Changeable voters not entirely happy with the status quo need an attraction.  The NDP and CPC leaders are weak and ineffectual, so that attraction seems unlikely to be strong enough.

The danger here is not the populists or any other fringe factions, or even the "elites".  The danger is the potential giant "F-U" by one set of Canadians to the rest of Canadians if the LPC is re-elected with a majority in spite of the manifest scandal.  That is the path to populism.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on September 15, 2019, 16:07:24
I was looking at something on Youtube this morning and an interesting and catchy ad came up.  As I hadn't done any searches (recently  :whistle:) dealing with the primary subject matter, my assumption is that the site's logarithm is assuming that my interest is either Canada or politics (or more specifically Canadian politics) since the current PM is featured prominently in the ad.

https://twitter.com/reefertilizer/status/1052711347299840000?lang=en

I wonder if Elections Canada will consider this a political ad and make it subject to the requirements for "issue advertising".  Until I started to actually listen to the lyrics, I thought it was a campaign ad.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on September 15, 2019, 16:53:43
I had high hopes that Bernier would start a legitimate, libertarian political movement that emphasized personal responsibility, smaller federal government, etc. He did have good people behind him, well-connected, and with good political experience which is why they were so successful in getting the ground game established, starting EDAs and getting candidates. However, all those people have since abandoned him since he basically just went off the rails with some pretty stupid dog-whistling and I'm no different than those people. I liked Max when he was genuinely interested in libertarian principles over vote-buying, now it appears he's interested in votes and the only people left to get votes from are the fringes who weren't voting before. I suspect he hasn't taken too many CPC supporters from the CPC who haven't subsequently switched back to CPC.

The old Max could have been a force to reckon with, the current Max reminds me of a poker player that's gone full tilt mode until they're out of chips.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 16, 2019, 08:27:45
Aaaaaaaaaand for a slighty different view, here's the World Socialist Web Site's take on it all (https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/09/16/sncl-s16.html) ...
Quote
... the Tories and the media, led by the Globe and Mail, the traditional voice of the Bay Street financial elite, are cynically and hypocritically seeking to use the SNC-Lavalin affair to shift politics still further right. Particularly sinister is their insistence that the RCMP must be empowered to investigate the SNC-Lavalin affair, and the actions of Trudeau and the Prime Minister’s Office in particular, in the midst of the election campaign. This would effectively give Canada’s national police—a force notorious for its right-wing sympathies and repeated violations of Canadians’ democratic rights—a powerful say in the election’s outcome.

(...)

The Trudeau government is a pro-austerity, pro-war government that must be implacably opposed by the working class. But in doing so, it must lend no support to the reactionary intrigues of the Tories and the Globe. Their attempt to make the RCMP the arbiter of the election’s outcome is part of a breakdown of democratic forms of rule in all the advanced capitalist countries.

(...)

The social democratic NDP as usual trails after the capitalist elite’s traditional parties of government. The NDP has essentially echoed the Conservatives’ talking-points on the SNC-Lavalin affair, while making clear that, in the event of a hung parliament, it will prop up a minority Liberal government.

(...)

The only viable response to the SNC-Lavalin scandal is for the working class to take up the struggle for socialism. The corrupt relations that exist between the political establishment as a whole and Canada’s fabulously wealthy corporate elite can be broken only through the establishment of a workers’ government, committed to placing the banks and basic industry under public ownership and workers’ control, a vast program of public works to meet pressing social needs, such as housing, health care, schools and social services, and a halt to the tens of billions of dollars wasted on preparing Canadian imperialism to fight in a new world war. Above all, working people can only end the domination of big business and the super-rich over political life by taking up the fight to abolish the capitalist profit system that gives rise to it.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on September 16, 2019, 10:13:32
Ah, World Socialists.

You can always count on their brand of crazy to brighten the day....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Fishbone Jones on September 16, 2019, 10:31:23
There seems to be a lot of speculation about Commissioner Lucki being married to Morneau's cousin. Has anyone seen anything solid about this?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 16, 2019, 10:59:01
Ah, World Socialists.

You can always count on their brand of crazy to brighten the day....
:nod:
#NDPNotQuiteSocialistEnough
There seems to be a lot of speculation about Commissioner Lucki being married to Morneau's cousin. Has anyone seen anything solid about this?
One Twitter post (attached) with no link included, being retweeted by non-fans of the RCMP & Team Red … #ALotOfPeopleAreSaying
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 16, 2019, 11:46:17
The man she is married to is a retired RCMP staff sgt.

Is he a blood relation to Morneau?  Other than what some guy posted on twitter  :dunno:

Are a spouse's cousins considered to be a potential conflict?  2nd cousins?  3rd? 4th?

I have a massive extended family with 2nd and 3rd cousins I don't even know.  I don't even know a good chunk of my spouses 1st cousins let alone the next ones removed. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on September 16, 2019, 12:59:56
The connection is tenuous at best. That being said, it's more about the narrative. As long as the "LPC in bed with SNC" story can be exploited, the more it will be.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 16, 2019, 13:05:06
The connection is tenuous at best. That being said, it's more about the narrative. As long as the "LPC in bed with SNC" story can be exploited, the more it will be.
VERY true - but in spite of what some people say, details also matter.  You can make that link pretty clearly & easily without making stuff up.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 16, 2019, 18:00:18
Maybe, maybe not. Say what you want about Bernier, he can think on his feet, is (apparently) imumune to embarrassment and is the master of the quip. The pay off for Bernier (in terms of his base) is attacking Trudeau. He could end up making the PM look stupid, depending on the issue.

Now, I suppose, that could also hurt the CPC, if he does well enough that enough people decide to give him a second look. Or he could just make Scheer look reasonable and safe. Time will tell.

Fair points.  But I think that Bernier is banking on the conservative votes.  I don’t think he is really competing for the LPC or NDP vote share.  That means that Scheer will have to show he is the better choice for conservatives as opposed to the only choice.  Means less time on Trudeau at the debates and you can bet Bernier will be after Scheer on a variety of conservative issues. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on September 16, 2019, 18:49:59
Fair points.  But I think that Bernier is banking on the conservative votes.  I don’t think he is really competing for the LPC or NDP vote share.  That means that Scheer will have to show he is the better choice for conservatives as opposed to the only choice.  Means less time on Trudeau at the debates and you can bet Bernier will be after Scheer on a variety of conservative issues.

You and I mostly agree. Any votes Bernier gets come out of the CPC hide or out of folks who would not ever vote Liberal or NDP. Maybe some Blocqusties or even Greens (the Greens are a weird bunch and are all over the poltical map).

The roadmap for Bernier to make a splash and get fireworks is to go after Trudeau and not Scheer. Those will be the clips that get played on the news- not him and Scheer arguing about Dairy marketing boards.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on September 16, 2019, 19:02:53
So bernier plays far right allowing scheer to play mid right taking votes from the libs and a conservative minority government is hatched...

Yeah i know, it wont happen. I can dream though.

Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 16, 2019, 19:07:49
Bernier never stuck me as serious.

Maybe he's on to something with his platform, though I've heard he has a habit of blowing stuff off.

Also heard even if he wins every seat or whatever he can, he won't have enough to form a government. "At best" he'll give us another 4 years of the honourable Prime Minister Trudeau playing dress up.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on September 16, 2019, 20:03:17
Bernier was invited to the debate solely for his fireworks value. The press isn't interested in anything else. They want sound bites that play. The only way he gets airtime after the debate is to go after Trudeau.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on September 16, 2019, 20:25:50
Bernier was invited to the debate solely for his fireworks value. The press isn't interested in anything else. They want sound bites that play. The only way he gets airtime after the debate is to go after Trudeau.

Suggesting that Bernier was invited for entertainment value may have been valid if the upcoming debate was, as in years (elections) past, sponsored and organized by the "Consortium" (the major TV media outlets combined).  However, this debate is organized by the Leaders’ Debates Commission (https://debates-debats.ca/en/) which is a government body.  While the Commission, as a government body, may be open to criticism for bias, I have much respect for the Commissioner and would expect him to abide by the mandate and guidelines that he has been given.  The Commissioner, by the way, is David Johnston, the former Governor-General.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on September 16, 2019, 20:46:46
Apologies then. I thought this was another of the media led debates.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 16, 2019, 21:47:34
So bernier plays far right allowing scheer to play mid right taking votes from the libs and a conservative minority government is hatched...

Yeah i know, it wont happen. I can dream though.

Abdullah

Thing with that though is that Bernier *may* sap (in the original siege-engineering sense of the word) strength from the CPC, but that will serve not to bolster the LPC. It may redistribute votes; it will not redistribute seats in any way advantageous to the right. In the event of a CPC minority it offers no additional seats right of the liberals to prior then up- not that I personally think that’s terrible; I’ve made no secret of my opinion of Bernier’s Tantrum party. But for those who have ideological allegiance to the right, there is no real advantage, tactical or strategic, to Bernier gaining support.

“Most likely” COA is the PPC crash and burn and get no seats. “Most dangerous” is Bernier gets his seat and thus lots of airtime, and the CPC lose enough votes to turn enough ridings that it swings either the winner outright, or the majority/minority question for either LPC or CPC.

A vote for the PPC effectively is a vote for the LPC. That might not be an individual’s intent, but that’t The effect. For every shot the PPC fire at a Liberal point target, the CPC are in the beaten zone.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Navy_Pete on September 16, 2019, 22:04:48
Thing with that though is that Bernier *may* sap (in the original siege-engineering sense of the word) strength from the CPC, but that will serve not to bolster the LPC. It may redistribute votes; it will not redistribute seats in any way advantageous to the right. In the event of a CPC minority it offers no additional seats right of the liberals to prior then up- not that I personally think that’s terrible; I’ve made no secret of my opinion of Bernier’s Tantrum party. But for those who have ideological allegiance to the right, there is no real advantage, tactical or strategic, to Bernier gaining support.

“Most likely” COA is the PPC crash and burn and get no seats. “Most dangerous” is Bernier gets his seat and thus lots of airtime, and the CPC lose enough votes to turn enough ridings that it swings either the winner outright, or the majority/minority question for either LPC or CPC.

A vote for the PPC effectively is a vote for the LPC. That might not be an individual’s intent, but that’t The effect. For every shot the PPC fire at a Liberal point target, the CPC are in the beaten zone.

I could see them getting some seats in QC. The CPC is still seen as an anglo party, the NDP is in freefall, the BQ has done nothing for sovereignty in a few decades, and some of the rhetoric against immigration is similar to what the CAQ rode into power on.

Got some flyers in the mail from 'Team Trudeau'; not sure that's a great call. For the already devoted, it's a waste, for the undecided it's making the Liberals a cult of personality, and that's where the Adm Norman, SNC and other issues will weigh against not just him, but the entire party. The PMO torpedoing Adm Norman's career and life by withholding evidence under the guise of cabinet confidence was the final straw for me personally, but kind of leaves a trash heap to choose from.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on September 16, 2019, 22:35:12
Thing with that though is that Bernier *may* sap (in the original siege-engineering sense of the word) strength from the CPC, but that will serve not to bolster the LPC. It may redistribute votes; it will not redistribute seats in any way advantageous to the right. In the event of a CPC minority it offers no additional seats right of the liberals to prior then up- not that I personally think that’s terrible; I’ve made no secret of my opinion of Bernier’s Tantrum party. But for those who have ideological allegiance to the right, there is no real advantage, tactical or strategic, to Bernier gaining support.

“Most likely” COA is the PPC crash and burn and get no seats. “Most dangerous” is Bernier gets his seat and thus lots of airtime, and the CPC lose enough votes to turn enough ridings that it swings either the winner outright, or the majority/minority question for either LPC or CPC.

A vote for the PPC effectively is a vote for the LPC. That might not be an individual’s intent, but that’t The effect. For every shot the PPC fire at a Liberal point target, the CPC are in the beaten zone.

I agree with you 100%.

I have already resigned myself to another term of trudeau... just because i lack faith in the cpc right now.

But if it is what canadians want im happy.. sorta.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 16, 2019, 23:03:48
I agree with you 100%.

I have already resigned myself to another term of trudeau... just because i lack faith in the cpc right now.

But if it is what canadians want im happy.. sorta.

Hoping for an LPC minority that will be short lived.  With Scheer gone so that a better CPC leader can win the next majority. 

I just hope that that neither party gets a majority in this round.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 17, 2019, 13:30:42
Reading polls is one thing; predicting voter reactions is another.

If the PPC polls high enough for the election model forecasts to show a drop in CPC seats, will some of the NDP voters drop their LPC-as-ABC stance to return to the NDP or move to the Greens?  Will enough of those cause the forecasts for NDP seats (or Greens) to rise?  Will the LPC seat forecasts then drop enough to re-alarm the ABC voters?  Etc, etc.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 17, 2019, 14:39:41
The website calculatedpolitics.ca has team Trudeau ending just over majority territory now. Again, just an aggregation of polling data updated weekly.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 17, 2019, 14:44:53
I agree with you 100%.

I have already resigned myself to another term of trudeau... just because i lack faith in the cpc right now.

But if it is what canadians want im happy.. sorta.

I’m in agreement too. Not happy - but we could do worse I suppose.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 18, 2019, 16:56:32
According to the Toronto Sun today, the alleged familial relationship between the RCMP commissioner and Bill Morneau is a complete fabrication. Not surprised, but nice to have it confirmed.

https://torontosun.com/news/national/fake-news-links-bill-morneau-to-rcmp-commish?fbclid=IwAR0YJFr53sCGGV_vArQ3q77fDTDeqVl5-UcjKBGBeE7upjmDxzwL1fSYn-s
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 18, 2019, 18:31:32
I’m liking the way the media is dealing with all these rumours and allegations. I would like to see the one about Trudeau having drinks with Faith Goldy (and friends) dealt with.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 18, 2019, 20:25:15
Trudeau in "brownface" (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-brownface-arabian-nights-1.5289165) might provide some amusement for a while.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on September 18, 2019, 20:35:13
Pretty sad he might actually lose more votes because of that then committing a breach of trust to help SNC-Lavellin out of a criminal jam.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 18, 2019, 20:36:54
Trudeau in "brownface" (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-brownface-arabian-nights-1.5289165) might provide some amusement for a while.
Ooopsie ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 18, 2019, 20:40:23
And just for those keeping track, so far it looks like all of the #BoughtMedia /sarcasm are racing each other to cover this rather unflattering coverage of our PM. I haven't looked everywhere of course, but CBC, the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail, the National Post, CTV, and Global all have it. So there's that.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 18, 2019, 21:37:07
PMJT has already fallen on his sword admitting it, apologizing, and saying he now sees that it was wrong. Basically exactly what he should have done, and as fast as he could do it. Conveniently for him, Scheer sort of painted himself into a corner on this with his approach to his own candidates’ last indiscretions, and he’s essentially shrugged and said ‘good enough for me’. The NDP will be the ones running hardest with this.

Stupid and embarrassing, with some damage potential. We shall see how it plays out. It certainly won’t play into the CPC’s hand to push too hard, although it will mute some criticism over some of their candidates.

A great night for the reporters though.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 19, 2019, 00:51:50
It was the top story at CNN for about 20 minutes, lol.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on September 19, 2019, 00:59:43
You know, you do not just magically think something is wrong.

Politicians play a part, regardless of their beliefs.. the part he is playing is being contradicted by his actions. Back in 2001 this was wrong and in bad taste... yet he still did it.

I don't buy that he actually cares about what he did other then it might hurt him politically.

Abdullah

P.s yeah, I am biased I know.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on September 19, 2019, 01:53:13
You're absolutely right.

This type of behaviour is and was wrong and we all knew it then as well (and as a 29 year-old teacher he sure as hell should have known it) but it's especially egregious when you've been holding yourself out as a paragon of virtue and the most "woke" guy in the legislature.

Sometimes, sorry just doesn't cut it.

 :2c:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on September 19, 2019, 10:05:54
Video has now emerged from Global News showing Trudeau in blackface laughing it up for the camera. Article states senior Liberal campaign staffer has confirmed it is Trudeau.

https://globalnews.ca/video/5923071/exclusive-video-shows-trudeau-in-blackface-in-third-instance-of-racist-makeup (https://globalnews.ca/video/5923071/exclusive-video-shows-trudeau-in-blackface-in-third-instance-of-racist-makeup)

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 19, 2019, 10:43:03

For those that think this won't stick.

It won't.  But...

It provides some respite to the CPC who have been on the defensive.

Brihard correctly pointed out that Scheer put himself into a corner on this with his own people.   If he is smart, he'll  focus on his platform and let Singh do the fighting.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 19, 2019, 10:54:33
According to the Toronto Sun today, the alleged familial relationship between the RCMP commissioner and Bill Morneau is a complete fabrication. Not surprised, but nice to have it confirmed.

https://torontosun.com/news/national/fake-news-links-bill-morneau-to-rcmp-commish?fbclid=IwAR0YJFr53sCGGV_vArQ3q77fDTDeqVl5-UcjKBGBeE7upjmDxzwL1fSYn-s
More from CBC.ca on this (https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/lucki-morneau-married-cousin-rumour-false-1.5288672) - screen capture of alleged "Tweet Zero" on this one attached.

And just for those keeping track, so far it looks like all of the #BoughtMedia /sarcasm are racing each other to cover this rather unflattering coverage of our PM. I haven't looked everywhere of course, but CBC, the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail, the National Post, CTV, and Global all have it. So there's that.
But some haters'll still say, "they're running with it now, but it took Time magazine to break the story (https://time.com/5680759/justin-trudeau-brownface-photo/)."  ;D #DevilsAdvocate
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 19, 2019, 12:25:08
CBC reports the Liberal party has put the campaign on hold.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2019-where-the-leaders-are-day-9-1.5289326
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on September 19, 2019, 13:28:35
CBC reports the Liberal party has put the campaign on hold.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2019-where-the-leaders-are-day-9-1.5289326

I'll bet it is.

My guess is they are figuring out a way of announcing some new program, using taxpayer money, as a way of apologizing. Because they are that obtuse.

I can forgive alot of things, but not this. Youthful indiscretion should normally be cut alot of slack. But Trudeau and the Liberals wrapped themselves in a cloak of moral superiority and have enjoyed the fruits of that (unexamined and unearned) priviledge, over the past 4 years. The media in Canada has given them a nearly complete pass on their claim of "wokeness".

So- too bad, Liberal Party of Canada. You brought all of this entirely on yourselves. You can eat the consequences.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Rifleman62 on September 19, 2019, 13:41:23
Trudeau is already ignored at by the other nations leaders at the G7 et al ( lots of photos/videos to prove that), what would it be like if Trudeau is re-elected? As the head of the government of Canada, the people of Canada, he will be toxic.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 19, 2019, 13:57:13
If anyone wants to know how it all went down...

https://election.ctvnews.ca/oh-my-god-there-s-a-photo-how-brownface-bombshell-hit-liberal-campaign-bus-1.4600414
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on September 19, 2019, 13:59:37
For those that think this won't stick.

It won't.  But...

It provides some respite to the CPC who have been on the defensive.

Brihard correctly pointed out that Scheer put himself into a corner on this with his own people.   If he is smart, he'll  focus on his platform and let Singh do the fighting.

You know what scares me, I have a few buddies who support the LPC and they can not admit Trudeau was a fool doing black face.. instead they say scheer is a rascist or the canadian trump or that the conservative party is the party of rascists and refuse to even discuss the fact they may be wrong.

Ticks me off and scares me how little accountability our leaders have for their actions. Seems like you get a free pass these days.

Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 19, 2019, 14:01:51
CBC reports the Liberal party has put the campaign on hold.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2019-where-the-leaders-are-day-9-1.5289326

Tactical pause. “Alright, how many more of these might be out there? What’s our messaging, and how do we get out from under this?”

At this point until the news cycle moves on, any public appearance will not go well for him.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 19, 2019, 14:13:08
You know what scares me, I have a few buddies who support the LPC and they can not admit Trudeau was a fool doing black face.. instead they say scheer is a rascist or the canadian trump or that the conservative party is the party of rascists and refuse to even discuss the fact they may be wrong.

Ticks me off and scares me how little accountability our leaders have for their actions. Seems like you get a free pass these days.

Abdullah

Abdullah, I just listened to CBC radio over lunch.  the whole show was about this.   Callers were quick to dismiss this as a minor thing and not say that this was racism despite the PM himself actually saying it was.  One conservative caller actually defended him believe it or not but I bet that caller would have defended Scheer for the same accusations.  At least he wasn't a hypocrite about it.

Someone said it was ok because he was drama teacher using his skills as a thespian.

In 2001 at 29 as teacher he should have known better.  it was not acceptable then.  It wasn't even acceptable when he did it in the 90s although youthful stupidity can still be accounted for then.

He's not a racist.  But he is entitled, raised in a in a privileged world who worked at an expensive private school where he was likely clueless about things like blackface.  We don't even need to talk about the middle class and how disconnected he is from that. I can accept that he is contrite and apologetic but it does not change the fact that he is clueless.

For me it's about the hypocrisy of our world.  Trump, Kavanagh, Trudeau, Ford.  They can do no wrong as long as they are on your team.  They will also be racists, sexual predators and misogynists if they aren't.   ::)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 19, 2019, 14:25:39
They can do no wrong as long as they are on your team.
That.  Right.  There.  For all teams.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on September 19, 2019, 14:31:56
CBC reports the Liberal party has put the campaign on hold.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2019-where-the-leaders-are-day-9-1.5289326

You mean it wasn't on hold the first 2 days of it when Trudeau refused to take questions from the media?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 19, 2019, 14:55:19
Apparently not. It fascinating to watch CBC change headlines, bylines and content in near real time.

https://twitter.com/LitigationGuy/status/1174645711574634496?s=20
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on September 19, 2019, 15:00:38
In 2001 at 29 as teacher he should have known better.  it was not acceptable then.  It wasn't even acceptable when he did it in the 90s although youthful stupidity can still be accounted for then.

He's not a racist.  But he is entitled, raised in a in a privileged world who worked at an expensive private school where he was likely clueless about things like blackface.  We don't even need to talk about the middle class and how disconnected he is from that. I can accept that he is contrite and apologetic but it does not change the fact that he is clueless.

Kinda puts the India costuming fiasco in perspective, doesn't it? That many incidents isn't an accident, its a deep character flaw.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: YZT580 on September 19, 2019, 15:24:05
When the first incident occurred and he made his 'apology'to the press was the time to fess up and tell all.  Supposedly, he did and sounded down-right convincing while doing so.  Now we have incident number 3 from out of nowhere.  The problem isn't in the blackface, it is in his being an out and out liar.  The man cannot be trusted at all. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Technoviking on September 19, 2019, 16:04:18
He's not a racist. 

I think he is; he just doesn't realize it.  He is the epitome of bigotry of soft expectations. He believes in intersectionality and that the less privileged you are, the more help you need because you can't do that on your own.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 19, 2019, 16:10:10
When the first incident occurred and he made his 'apology'to the press was the time to fess up and tell all.  Supposedly, he did and sounded down-right convincing while doing so.  Now we have incident number 3 from out of nowhere.  The problem isn't in the blackface, it is in his being an out and out liar.  The man cannot be trusted at all.
I didn't hear/see the original interview, but one second-hand version I heard said that when asked something to the effect of, "anything else to fess up to?", he just didn't answer the question.  This opens it up to the "doesn't rule out other instances" narrative - which has proven true. #CleverButNotSoCleverWordsmithing
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: YZT580 on September 19, 2019, 18:40:31
Scheer can still get mileage out of it.  By his standard Trudeau did not 'fess up when given the chance therefore his offer of second chance is null and void.  He can point out his continued deceit without having to go back on what he has said about misdemeanours in his own party ranks
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 19, 2019, 19:44:40
I guess the PM really does like to dress up. I suspect that there will be other photos becoming public in the days ahead.
My issue with all of this is that SNC Lavalin, the hijinks with Admiral Norman etc is all being swept aside over photographs that are 15 years old. Someone dug deep.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 19, 2019, 19:47:34
Someone dug deep.
Yes, and no.  The photo seems to have been around for almost 20 years now, but nobody seems to have known about it?   Lotta people out there, and it only takes one to leak it.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 19, 2019, 19:52:11
Makes me wonder why it wasn’t discovered last time.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on September 19, 2019, 20:04:24
Makes me wonder why it wasn’t discovered last time.

*tinfoil on* Calculated leak to the CPC knowing that their base would not waver due to his actions as PM. The CPC then predictably made it public thinking they had the high ground, realizing they couldn't push to hard on the subject the NDP jumped in hoping to draw LPC votes to the NDP.

Meanwhile the LPC is the winner here, all the major issues have been swept aside and this easily mitigated issue is now the forefront.
*tinfoil off*

Or.. someone did do some digging through their archives after they felt Trudeau was being a hypocrite and passed it to the CPC.

Abdullah

P.s if i figured these scandals would hurt me and had this calculated risk.. I might have done option one ;)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 19, 2019, 20:16:13
Makes me wonder why it wasn’t discovered last time.

If I knew about it I wouldn't release it until it's close to election time.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: George Wallace on September 19, 2019, 20:26:29
I think he is; he just doesn't realize it.  He is the epitome of bigotry of soft expectations. He believes in intersectionality and that the less privileged you are, the more help you need because you can't do that on your own.

I tend to agree as well, to the degree that he has a very long history of anti-English diatribes in the past.  He seems to be prejudiced against Whites, English White European stock.....and all other English speaking Canadians to a slightly lesser degree. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on September 19, 2019, 22:15:56
The parents of the students of the school at the time are rallying to Trudeau's defence.

"It was a very multicultural school"
"We were all having fun"

I'm really torn on this. Should I feel outrage that he did a racist thing? No not really.
My issue is that Team Trudeau made a lot of hay outing conservatives. Should they not be under the same scrutiny for actions that if it wasn't them they'd be selling the tar and feathers?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 19, 2019, 22:44:13
Good luck with that. Different teams, different rules of identity outrage and fear mongering.

Absolutely.

Leader has done and said racist things but isn’t a racist.
Leader accused of groping a woman.
leader caught in ethical scandals
leader fires members of cabinet because they won’t break the rules for him

This could be Trudeau or could be Trump.  Those of you that give either one a pass on this stuff but are willing to crucify the other are hypocrites.

Saw an interview where an LPC strategist was asked if he was so willing to forgive Trudeau and move on would he do the same for someone like Donald Trump.  The waffling and tongue tying was fun to watch.

The state of today’s political discourse and reasoning is abysmal.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on September 20, 2019, 00:07:48
Glad to know that I'm not a hypocrite as I wish that the electorates in both countries should kick their respective butts into the gutter.

 :clubinhand:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on September 20, 2019, 07:56:33
Gen Leslie (Ret) was interviewed in a local Ottawa media outlet and he said (paraphrase) that he resigned due to questionable ethical issues with some of his colleagues.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: George Wallace on September 20, 2019, 08:51:57
Absolutely.

Leader has done and said racist things but isn’t a racist.
Leader accused of groping a woman.
leader caught in ethical scandals
leader fires members of cabinet because they won’t break the rules for him

This could be Trudeau or could be Trump.  Those of you that give either one a pass on this stuff but are willing to crucify the other are hypocrites.

Saw an interview where an LPC strategist was asked if he was so willing to forgive Trudeau and move on would he do the same for someone like Donald Trump.  The waffling and tongue tying was fun to watch.

The state of today’s political discourse and reasoning is abysmal.

True; but we only vote on the Canadian, not the American.  It is our 'leader' that we must be concerned with.  The other we only watch out of curiosity, like a 2 Lt, to see what he will do next.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 20, 2019, 10:15:41
… It is our 'leader' that we must be concerned with ...
Very true re:  who we're voting for and who we should focus on.  If someone is concerned about behaviour x on the part of one person but not concerned about the same behaviour on the part of someone else, though, this could reveal something about the level of nuance & consistency of said concern, and the reasons for the different levels of concern.  That goes ALL ways for ALL team jersey colours. 
… The other we only watch out of curiosity, like a 2 Lt, to see what he will do next.
Does he happen to have a map & compass, too?  :rofl:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 20, 2019, 10:47:07
Macbeth called it:  "it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

ALL of our parties, plus many public commentators, and site members have sunk into the depths of meaningless name-calling and mud-slinging (while sanctimoniously finger-pointing [or cheerleading] towards the south for identical behaviours).  :not-again:


Where are the policies?  Has anyone uttered anything  on their defence and security platforms, significant or otherwise?

/preaching

This.  I asked someone what they disliked about the CPC platform.  He admitted he hadn't even looked at it.  Just the normal fear mongering lines.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jonezy76 on September 20, 2019, 10:53:51
Macbeth called it:  "it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

ALL of our parties, plus many public commentators, and site members have sunk into the depths of meaningless name-calling and mud-slinging (while sanctimoniously finger-pointing [or cheerleading] towards the south for identical behaviours).  :not-again:


Where are the policies?  Has anyone uttered anything  on their defence and security platforms, significant or otherwise?

/preaching


The CPC wants to increase funding (16.1Billion) and take politics out of procurement. I found an article, but it's from the CBC.....
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-foreign-defence-policy-procurement-trudeau-1.5127028

The Libs are already cutting billions...
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/03/04/liberals-military-equipment-spending_a_23683697/

The Greens plan to maintain at 1.1% of GDP.
https://www.greenparty.ca/en/convention-2012/voting/motions/%5Bfield_code-raw%5D-72

Nothing recent from the NDP.

Here's an article that touches on a couple things to do with National Defence...
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/2019-federal-election-platform-guide-where-the-parties-stand-on-everything/#defence
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: QV on September 20, 2019, 11:01:21
Well has anyone even read the PPC platform? 

Max refused to call Trudeau a racist for this blackface stuff, only said he was a gigantic hypocrite, he focuses on his policy differences.  I applaud that.   

But according to the msm, Max is the head of a racist nationalist party.  Funny, he wasn't a racist before he challenged anyone or when he was a cabinet minister.

I agree, politics is more toxic than ever.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on September 20, 2019, 11:08:20
The CPC wants...
It's a good start, but none are particularly timely (ie - since campaigning began)

Correction: I saw the April publication date, but just noticed that it's being updated;  most recent was two days ago.  :salute:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on September 20, 2019, 11:46:23
Let's hope that they don't start talking about Long Guns instead of Handguns.

Your wish has been heard and denied.

Quote
Liberals to unveil details of plan to restrict assault rifles, handguns
Social Sharing

Gun control measures starkly different from Conservative plan to crack down on illegal owners
Kathleen Harris · CBC News · Posted: Sep 20, 2019

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau will unveil his party's plan to restrict assault rifles and handguns in Toronto today.

Trudeau will be making the 10:30 a.m. ET announcement in Toronto's Greektown, the site of a deadly gun rampage last summer.

Faisal Hussain walked through the Danforth neighbourhood on July 22, 2018, shooting at people on the street, on patios and in restaurants.

He killed 10-year-old Julianna Kozis and 18-year-old Reese Fallon. Thirteen others were injured. Hussain, 29, died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head after a gunfight with police.

Today's Liberal announcement is expected to be a two-pronged policy promise to restrict or prohibit assault rifles and to allow cities to impose bans on handguns. ...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-gun-control-trudeau-2019-1.5290950 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-gun-control-trudeau-2019-1.5290950)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 20, 2019, 12:34:17
Well has anyone even read the PPC platform? 

Max refused to call Trudeau a racist for this blackface stuff, only said he was a gigantic hypocrite, he focuses on his policy differences.  I applaud that.   

But according to the msm, Max is the head of a racist nationalist party.  Funny, he wasn't a racist before he challenged anyone or when he was a cabinet minister.

I agree, politics is more toxic than ever.

Yes, I read the PPC platform in its entirety, to the extent it had been published a few days ago. Max is head of a racist nationalist party, which is why we’ve seen racist nationalists flocking to it. A politician will absolutely be judged by the company they keep and the candidates and views that assemble under their banner. PPC, apparently completely ignorant of demographics and Canada’s low birth rates, want to greatly restrict the number of foreigners immigrating to Canada. They also want to make sure they are tested against the PPC’s idea of the ‘right’ set of values. They quite explicitly want to target their immigration quotas to minority Christians specifically. So yes, they absolutely have heavy ideological and racial biases in who they want to admit as newcomers to Canada in various categories. The very layout of their website places immigration and cultural issues prominently above energy infrastructure, foreign and domestic trade, healthcare, and the environment. They’ve made their priorities and who they’re appealing to crystal clear.

There have been a number of insider accounts from disenfranchised PPC enthusiasts who were quite active in the party, and have since bailed when they saw what sort of people were being welcomed into and embraced by the party. Now that’s not to say they’re a step away from running around wearing white sheets; they aren’t populated solely with reprehensible people. A lot of normal people are disaffected enough to have gone their way for lack of anything they feel is a better option. But they seem perfectly comfortable with building their platform and appeal on an ugly foundation.

With that said, I will credit Bernier with avoiding hypocrisy for not calling Trudeau out on this particular foulup- though any credit I grant is heavily discounted by Bernier likely knowing he hasn’t a leg to stand on in this one anyway; he spoke because in an election season he needs to be seen and heard.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on September 20, 2019, 12:42:01
Your wish has been heard and denied.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-gun-control-trudeau-2019-1.5290950 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-gun-control-trudeau-2019-1.5290950)

Nothing is going to happen.  There will be some token smoke blown in the air as a deflection for other issues but it will all come to nothing.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 20, 2019, 12:49:41
Nothing is going to happen.  There will be some token smoke blown in the air as a deflection for other issues but it will all come to nothing.
Initial reports from the newser (https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/trudeau-pledges-tougher-gun-control-as-he-tries-to-get-campaign-back-on-track) via The Canadian Press:
Quote
Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau is promising to ban all military-style assault rifles as part of a broader gun-control plan that will also take steps towards restricting and banning handguns.

Trudeau is making the pledge in Toronto as he tries to get his campaign back on track after apologizing for wearing blackface years ago.

The Liberals also pledge to work with provinces and territories to empower municipalities to further restrict — or ban — handguns.

Trudeau is making the announcement in the city’s Greektown neighbourhood, where a gunman killed two people and wounded 13 others last year in a shooting rampage.

The party says it will protect the rights of law-abiding hunters and vows not to re-establish the controversial long-gun registry that was scrapped by the previous Conservative government.

The proposal also includes pledges to create a buy-back program for all legally purchased assault rifles and a two-year amnesty while the program is being set up.

Also adding this to the Great Gun Control thread (https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,127924) so the politics can be discussed here, and the mechanics of the proposals there.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 20, 2019, 13:07:30
Macbeth called it:  "it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

ALL of our parties, plus many public commentators, and site members have sunk into the depths of meaningless name-calling and mud-slinging (while sanctimoniously finger-pointing [or cheerleading] towards the south for identical behaviours).  :not-again:


Where are the policies?  Has anyone uttered anything  on their defence and security platforms, significant or otherwise?

/preaching

Is it possible that now a days policy is made on the fly in the heat of an election, but the only real meat is funding announcements that may or not be costed, and which may or may not come to fruition.

The Liberal Red Book in the 90’s is the last I can remember of a genuine policy handbook, and even some of that fell apart during and after the election(s).

I think people know no more about what/who they will vote against than what/who they might vote for.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 20, 2019, 13:11:27
Policy. That’s the catchword. Not many people bother listening to a policy announcement.
Due to the dumbing down of our society (thank you reality TV and fluffy talk show hosts) most people would rather watch name calling losers in a house rather than listen to a policy that will affect them 30 years down the road.
Then they’ll claim they weren’t told.
I do fear for our nation.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Rifleman62 on September 20, 2019, 13:18:48
Quote
Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau is promising to ban all military-style assault rifles as part of a broader gun-control plan that will also take steps towards restricting and banning handguns.

Legally acquired guns only. No effort/policy to get illegal acquired guns off the streets.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 20, 2019, 14:01:36
"I am wary of being definitive" joins "I have no recollection of that" in the wallet card of answers-to-difficult-questions.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Spencer100 on September 20, 2019, 14:02:10
To lose the NY Times!  That is like death to progressives and liberals
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/opinion/trudeau-brownface-canada.html?fbclid=IwAR1y3_vrO_CoWsiLKg3D0bXXz9GywtMFF0cUVEVI-6dBo7l6wDt-Lyb1xHI

There is way more to this story.

It has the feel of an internal hit job by old line Liberals.  They must really hate Justin and Butts

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 20, 2019, 14:33:36
Still early in the scandal but...

https://election.ctvnews.ca/no-drop-so-far-in-liberal-support-after-bombshell-revelations-nanos-1.4602168
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: QV on September 20, 2019, 15:09:44
Yes, I read the PPC platform in its entirety, to the extent it had been published a few days ago. Max is head of a racist nationalist party, which is why we’ve seen racist nationalists flocking to it. A politician will absolutely be judged by the company they keep and the candidates and views that assemble under their banner. PPC, apparently completely ignorant of demographics and Canada’s low birth rates, want to greatly restrict the number of foreigners immigrating to Canada. They also want to make sure they are tested against the PPC’s idea of the ‘right’ set of values. They quite explicitly want to target their immigration quotas to minority Christians specifically. So yes, they absolutely have heavy ideological and racial biases in who they want to admit as newcomers to Canada in various categories. The very layout of their website places immigration and cultural issues prominently above energy infrastructure, foreign and domestic trade, healthcare, and the environment. They’ve made their priorities and who they’re appealing to crystal clear.

There have been a number of insider accounts from disenfranchised PPC enthusiasts who were quite active in the party, and have since bailed when they saw what sort of people were being welcomed into and embraced by the party. Now that’s not to say they’re a step away from running around wearing white sheets; they aren’t populated solely with reprehensible people. A lot of normal people are disaffected enough to have gone their way for lack of anything they feel is a better option. But they seem perfectly comfortable with building their platform and appeal on an ugly foundation.

With that said, I will credit Bernier with avoiding hypocrisy for not calling Trudeau out on this particular foulup- though any credit I grant is heavily discounted by Bernier likely knowing he hasn’t a leg to stand on in this one anyway; he spoke because in an election season he needs to be seen and heard.

Suggesting this party is racist is a gigantic and disappointing leap for you to make.  Frankly, with a declaration like that, you are part of this toxic problem.  Reasonable debate on important issues can't even take place when one side screams racist because they disagree with a position.  If they were publishing hateful and racist material in their election platform, they would come afoul of the laws on hate speech.  Prioritizing skilled immigrants over unskilled is not racist.  Believing in less immigration than the LPC each year is not racist.  Opposing Trudeau's view that Canada has no core identity is not racist.  Almost all of the PPC candidates' Twitter and Facebook links are posted on their site, are you suggesting all of these people are racists or comfortable to be in a racist party?  There is an entire province that has taken ample steps to protect their identity - is that racist?

        “Racism is not dead, but it is on life support — kept alive by politicians, race hustlers and people who get a sense of superiority by denouncing others as ‘racists’”
— Thomas Sowell
 
 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on September 20, 2019, 21:51:21
Quote
Singh says he'll talk with Trudeau to accept apology only if it's in private and politics-free

Justin Trudeau says he wants to talk with Singh to offer an in-person apology for blackface images
Peter Zimonjic · CBC News · Posted: Sep 20, 2019

NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh said today he'd be happy to talk with Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau to discuss racism in the wake of the prime minister's blackface revelations — provided the conversation happens in private and is not used for political purposes.

"His office reached out and I have indicated that I am open to having a conversation, as long as it remains private and I am not in any way used as a way for the Liberal Party to redeem the situation," Singh told CBC Radio's The House in an interview airing Saturday. "That is for Canadians to make the decision."

...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/singh-trudeau-meeting-blackface-1.5292001 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/singh-trudeau-meeting-blackface-1.5292001)

Call me a cynic but I can't see any way, regardless whether its in private or not, that this would be anything but a political stunt by Trudeau. The mere fact that such a meeting has been asked for is an act of political damage control.

My guess is that the Liberal machinery is spinning into high gear to set up umpteen meetings with Liberal friendly groups of colour for a short burst of "all is forgiven" media moments and then it will be back to business as usual to let the issue die in the later part of the campaign.

Maybe Singh should meet with him and then come out of the meeting and say I couldn't accept the apology because the acts were too egregious and he didn't seem sincere. Win-win! But that won't happen.

 :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on September 20, 2019, 23:33:47
For the record, I usually find Piers Morgan an insufferable blow-hard, but it's difficult to disagree with him this time:

PIERS MORGAN: Blackface Trudeau should apply the same high horse standards to himself that he applies to everyone else – and demand his own racist head on a plate

So, let me get this absolutely straight…

Justin Trudeau, the Prime Minister of Canada and arguably the most woke, virtue-signalling and PC-crazed leader in the history of Mankind – or ‘Peoplekind’ as he insisted we rename it last year - turns out to have a rather cracked halo?

Wow. I’m so shocked…not.

I’ve not met a high-horse rider yet who doesn’t eventually tumble off into a pit of shameless hypocrisy.

[MORE] (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7482979/PIERS-MORGAN-Blackface-Justin-Trudeau-demand-racist-head-plate.html)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 21, 2019, 08:40:06
Interesting bit (https://medium.com/@thismason/statement-on-unifors-political-actions-and-canadian-journalists-7b8c9d947832) from some members of the #NotYetBoughtMedia ...
Quote
Statement on Unifor’s political actions and Canadian journalists
Mason Wright, September 20, 2019

As unionized employees of media outlets, we are members of Unifor, the private-sector trade union that represents more than 300,000 Canadian workers in 20 sectors of the economy. But many of us are also journalists whose livelihoods depend on being able to report the news free of outside influence.

Like the vast majority of Canadians we have the right to join a union and defend our jobs and working conditions. Sometimes, this aligns us with the broader labour movement — unionized workers in a variety of sectors who can and do take stands on many issues. We recognize that for them, this is fine. But it may leave some observers with a false impression of Unifor-affiliated journalists because we are under the same labour umbrella. While we have no doubt that our journalism is uncompromised by our union membership, others may see things differently.

Public perception of our work matters for us in a way that it doesn’t for workers in most industries. Having the trust of our audiences is what gives us credibility. And these days, the perception of journalists is not always great. This is magnified in an election year. Readers and politicians alike may harbour suspicions about the motivations of the journalists who cover politics, and their bosses. But we hope and believe that most audiences understand this fact: our professionalism and integrity are too important to be subject to the whims of our employers — or our union.

We have been watching with growing concern as the president of Unifor, Jerry Dias, has led a very public campaign against the leader of the federal opposition, Andrew Scheer, and his Conservative Party. When the head of Unifor speaks, many of our readers assume that his words reflect the views of his members, including media workers. Attacks aimed at any political party, leader or candidate can introduce doubt among readers about bias and the independence of journalists. Meanwhile, those on the receiving end of such attacks will gladly inflame such doubt to further their own agendas.

To us, it doesn’t matter which political parties Mr. Dias or the Unifor executive decide to support or oppose. Our response would be the same if Unifor’s political action was against Justin Trudeau and the Liberals. Journalists must remain independent to be taken seriously.

Mr. Dias says that he and the national union office will carry on with an “aggressive campaign” to warn Canadian voters about the Conservatives’ “anti-worker” platform ahead of election day. As journalists first and foremost, we would like to make this point clear: On matters of partisan politics, Jerry Dias and Unifor do not speak for us.

Signed,

Mason Wright, The Globe and Mail
Adrian Morrow, The Globe and Mail
Amberly McAteer, The Globe and Mail
Doug Saunders, The Globe and Mail
Matt Lundy, The Globe and Mail
Steven Chase, The Globe and Mail
Daniel Leblanc, The Globe and Mail
Evan Annett, The Globe and Mail
Adrian Lee, The Globe and Mail
Peter Scowen, The Globe and Mail
Michael Haslett, Global National
Carrie Tait, The Globe and Mail
Bryan Gee, The Globe and Mail
Sean Silcoff, The Globe and Mail
Elizabeth Renzetti, The Globe and Mail
Joy Yokoyama, The Globe and Mail
Simon Houpt, The Globe and Mail
David Akin, Global News
Cliff Lee, The Globe and Mail
Carine Abouseif, The Globe and Mail
Janice Dickson, The Globe and Mail
Michael Snider, The Globe and Mail
Chris Hannay, The Globe and Mail
Campbell Clark, The Globe and Mail
Marieke Walsh, The Globe and Mail
Michelle Zilio, The Globe and Mail
Erin Anderssen, The Globe and Mail
Kristy Kirkup, The Globe and Mail
Nicolas Van Praet, The Globe and Mail
Jeffrey M Jones, The Globe and Mail
Sherrill Sutherland, The Globe and Mail
Jeremy Agius, The Globe and Mail
Renata D’Aliesio, The Globe and Mail
Christine Dobby, The Globe and Mail
Melissa Tait, The Globe and Mail
Josh O’Kane, The Globe and Mail
Nathan VanderKlippe, The Globe and Mail
Shannon Proudfoot, Maclean’s
Ricardo Veneza, CTV News Windsor/AM800 News
Brian Thomson, The Globe and Mail
David Parkinson, The Globe and Mail
Robyn Doolittle, The Globe and Mail
Judith Pereira, The Globe and Mail
John Daly, The Globe and Mail
Adam Radwanski, The Globe and Mail
Tom Cardoso, The Globe and Mail
Jeff Gray, The Globe and Mail
Ryan Thorpe, Winnipeg Free Press
Kathy Tomlinson, The Globe and Mail
Matthew Uhrig, Winchester Press
Justin Ling, Freelance, member of the Canadian Freelance Union
Joe Castaldo, The Globe and Mail
Tim Smith, Brandon Sun
Max Wark, CTV Kitchener
Oliver Moore, The Globe and Mail
Tom Brodbeck, Winnipeg Free Press
Steve Alexander, Global News
Tim McKenna, The Globe and Mail
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: George Wallace on September 21, 2019, 13:59:37
It seems to me that Justin Trudeau has never been very observant of current events; not even within his own Party.  Long-time LPC supporter and National Post Commentator Stephen LeDrew has been criticizing Trudeau and his Government for over a year now.  His latest commentary on Trudeau's 'racism' and 'hypocrisy' is here (dated 19 Sep 19):

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=uvJc03K4VVw
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 21, 2019, 14:56:41
Suggesting this party is racist is a gigantic and disappointing leap for you to make.  Frankly, with a declaration like that, you are part of this toxic problem.  Reasonable debate on important issues can't even take place when one side screams racist because they disagree with a position.  If they were publishing hateful and racist material in their election platform, they would come afoul of the laws on hate speech.  Prioritizing skilled immigrants over unskilled is not racist.  Believing in less immigration than the LPC each year is not racist.  Opposing Trudeau's view that Canada has no core identity is not racist.  Almost all of the PPC candidates' Twitter and Facebook links are posted on their site, are you suggesting all of these people are racists or comfortable to be in a racist party?  There is an entire province that has taken ample steps to protect their identity - is that racist?

        “Racism is not dead, but it is on life support — kept alive by politicians, race hustlers and people who get a sense of superiority by denouncing others as ‘racists’”
— Thomas Sowell
 

Here's the thing- your reply is basically predicated on the line you used, "when one side screams racist because they disagree with a position". But that's not what I'm doing. I guess I'll accept the backhanded compliment that you're 'disappointed' - but the reason you're 'disappointed' to see this post from me is that this is not generally something I say. I don't shrilly call racism because I disagree with people. I absolutely don't need to resort to allegations of racism to criticise PPC's policies. I didn't use the term 'racist' because I have nothing else to go on. I described them as a racist party because in totality their views on a number of issues - and the prominence those issues take in their platform - paint that picture for me. You're basically ignoring the forest for the individual trees and putting each platform plank in a frictionless vacuum. I'm looking at the bigger picture and seeing something that I believe is pernicious, ugly, and based on some underlying racist attitudes shared by enough of their party to inform their policy. When one of their own candidates a bit over a week ago called publicly on Bernier to clearly and publicly repudiate racist and white supremacist attitudes in order to help clear that up and make it easier for him as a candidate to run for the party without that cloud hanging over him, the party instead booted him as a candidate. I firmly beleive the PPC knows who its appealing to and has decided that for the sake of votes they're OK with that.

The PPC are a joke for a host of reasons. The party's very existence is a tantrum manifest. They're dug to the bottom of some pretty gross barrels for candidates. They cannot keep their house in order; candidates and staff have been dropping out or getting punted all over the place. Bernier, in an ego trip, basically tried to forcibly cobble together a party too late in the game that would run a full slate, and some huge shortcuts have had to be taken... It's more amateurish than a former leadership contender for the CPC has any business being, but it is what it is. They have a fraction of a platform, with their biggest focus on immigration and identity not being grounded in demographic reality. Even aside from the populism and the identity politics, it's just flat out economically unsound.

So no, I don't need to call out the PPC as having racist motivations in order to critique their many issues. I callet it out because it came up in discussion here, and because frankly I felt it was worth saying. The rise of crass populism within our democracy is concerning. If identity politics is distasteful and tawdry when coming from the left, then it's sure as hell also distasteful and tawdry coming from the right.

I'm not sure why you asked about Quebec's policies, because frankly it's not pertinent to this at all. But since you ask, yes, I believe Quebec's recent legislative changes to try to repress religious minorities is similarly racist.

Xenophobia is alive and well in this country, and it has been re-emboldened. I'm not going to ignore it or pretend it isn't there.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 21, 2019, 16:23:50
 I would say that Salim Mansur, a PPC candidate, is probably one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and balanced people running for a seat in this election. Unfortunately, his party is not at all at his standard but the Conservatives dropped him because he spoke truth to powerful interests.

I’m looking for a good independent in my riding ( North Okanagan) to vote for. All the mainstream parties are ill. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 21, 2019, 16:27:13
I would say that Salim Mansur, a PPC candidate, is probably one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and balanced people running for a seat in this election. Unfortunately, his party is not at all at his standard but the Conservatives dropped him because he spoke truth to powerful interests.

I’m looking for a good independent in my riding ( North Okanagan) to vote for. All the mainstream parties are ill.

That is indeed an unfortunate disqualification. It speaks to one of my earlier comments about how there will be some good people who have become sufficiently disenchanted with the major parties that they fall back on or are pushed to the PPC as a last resort that still presents as electorally relevant.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 21, 2019, 16:49:13
Latest poll tracker.

CPC with slight lead.  LPC seat rejection slips a bit.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 21, 2019, 17:33:22
If you look at calculates politics, even at the high end of seat projections the conservatives do not have the seats to win a majority.
 I wonder how things will work out if the Libs and the Cons both come in with ~140 seats each.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 21, 2019, 17:35:35
Latest poll tracker.

CPC with slight lead.  LPC seat rejection slips a bit.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

Pretty long ‘tail’ on the weighting they assign. All by 15.7% of the weight is from the 17th or earlier. It’ll take a while for any significant events or shifts in support to be particularly reflected. Not a bad thing in and of itself when looking at longer trajectories, but not a good barometer from day to day swings when there’s ‘big’ news...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on September 21, 2019, 18:36:38
Well the Liberals have just mobilized the majority of gun owners to go help the local CPC candidate.

Not quite.  The Liberals have mobilized all the hunters to support them with a promise to leave them alone. (https://2019.liberal.ca/our-plan/stronger-gun-control/)

"And as we take concrete action, we’ll continue to respect Canadian hunters, farmers, and sport shooters. We will not bring back the long-gun registry. Hunters do not use or need assault weapons."
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on September 21, 2019, 20:14:52
338 Canada is showing a significant change over the last two days in favour of the Conservatives.... The odds of forming government has gone from 80% Liberal / 20% CPC to 60%/40%. The Liberals had slowly moved up to 178 seats in the projections, and have now dropped to 161.

http://338canada.com/?fbclid=IwAR1PDYPCFzvluAlOYF-nVuiaGqHUGm5DDZfBnrmZShT0cpjjsAmqIWsDAqU
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 22, 2019, 16:42:34
Eric Grenier's latest poll tracker.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

One would think the LPC would have dropped more.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Old Sweat on September 22, 2019, 17:06:50
This Reuters story is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act. It is the only one of this nature I have seen and we should remember that one Robin does not make a Spring.

Canada's Trudeau campaigns after blackface images deliver blow to polling numbers

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau returned to the campaign trail on Sunday in his bid for re-election in October as polls showed his Liberals took a significant hit with voters after photos emerged of him in blackface.
FILE PHOTO - Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speaks during an election campaign stop in Toronto, Ontario, Canada September 20, 2019. REUTERS/Carlos Osorio
Trudeau has repeatedly apologized for the photos, which jarred with his oft-stated position that he wants to improve the lot of minorities in Canada and prompted accusations of hypocrisy.
Trudeau was headed for the Ontario city of Brampton, where 58% of the population is either south Asian or black. The Liberals took all five of Brampton’s seats in 2015 and need to retain them to stand a chance of winning the Oct. 21 election.
Before the photos emerged last week, surveys of public opinion strongly suggested Trudeau would beat the opposition Conservatives of Andrew Scheer, who is a legislator.
Now the polls have shifted and the Liberals are looking particularly vulnerable in Ontario, said pollster Frank Graves of EKOS Research, who said he would release his exact survey figures later this week.
The day before the pictures emerged, “the Liberals were at or very close to a majority” in the House of Commons, Graves said. “That’s completely turned around and maybe the Conservatives are in majority range now.”
“The Liberals’ Ontario lead appears to have evaporated almost overnight,” he added. At the end of August, the Liberals had a 15 percentage point lead on Conservatives Ontario, according to an EKOS poll.
Conservatives would now win 35.5% of the vote and the Liberals 32.9%, a Nanos Research poll released on Sunday said.
The theme of Trudeau’s campaign stop in Brampton is making life more affordable for Canadians, which had been one of the main thrusts of the campaign before the photo scandal.
Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland is due to attend a Toronto town hall hosted by the National Council of Canadian Muslims on Sunday. The council has accepted Trudeau’s apology after initially issued an angry statement.
Freeland has said she was saddened by the photos but stressed she fully backed Trudeau. Other Liberal legislators and candidates have also expressed unhappiness.
Insiders have dismissed the idea of anyone in the party mounting a challenge against Trudeau during the campaign, saying that would be tantamount to electoral suicide.
Reporting by David Ljunggren, additional reporting by Steve Scherer in Ottawa; Editing by Sonya Hepinstall
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on September 22, 2019, 19:34:20
Red Liberals were never going to be moved by this scandal. The goal is to move blue Liberals right and orange Liberals left. If the Torries can cause enough vote splitting between the Liberals and NDP, particularly in the more multicultural ridings, then that's a win for them.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on September 23, 2019, 13:21:22
I don't think for a moment that hunters, farmers, and sport shooters will be duped by the Liberals fancy prose on this one. They're well aware that they're up next. Death by inches.

The Liberal's updated backgrounder (https://2019.liberal.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/292/2019/09/2019-backgrounder-guns-ENG-1.pdf) now makes no mention of respecting the rights of sport shooters.

How will that affect the thousands of LEOs, military and other armed professionals who own and use personal handguns?  How will that affect competition shooters from IPSC to the Olympics?

Edit to fix malformed URL to enable hyperlink to backgrounder - Staff
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on September 23, 2019, 13:38:00
The Liberal's updated {url=https://2019.liberal.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/292/2019/09/2019-backgrounder-guns-ENG-1.pdf]backgrounder[/url] now makes no mention of respecting the rights of sport shooters.

How will that affect the thousands of LEOs, military and other armed professionals who own and use personal handguns?  How will that affect competition shooters from IPSC to the Olympics?

You don't actually think they thought through the practical implications of this, do you?

Take for example giving munipicalities the right to ban guns in their boundries. Most municipalities do not own ranges for their police forces- most use civilian facilities. Most of those ranges will either cease to exist or will refuse to rent to Law enforcement agencies if this goes through.

Then what?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on September 23, 2019, 13:57:26
Is it just me or are all the things that the Liberals are staring to promise, things that they could have very easily brought in during their last four years as a majority government? Seems to me all that they've actually accomplished is to legalize weed and initiate an unpopular carbon tax.

 :dunno:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 23, 2019, 14:20:08
Is it just me or are all the things that the Liberals are staring to promise, things that they could have very easily brought in during their last four years as a majority government? Seems to me all that they've actually accomplished is to legalize weed and initiate an unpopular carbon tax.

 :dunno:

The Child Benefit they introduced is a decent success.

The free trade deal with the US and Mexico could also be pointed to but isn't ratified yet.

But even with that it is a pretty short list and yes a lot of what they are proposing could have been done in the last four years.   
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 23, 2019, 14:35:05
Is it just me or are all the things that the Liberals are staring to promise, things that they could have very easily brought in during their last four years as a majority government? Seems to me all that they've actually accomplished is to legalize weed and initiate an unpopular carbon tax.

 :dunno:

Well, they also bought us our first pipeline for a few billion dollars, letting a big Texas based company off the hook.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on September 23, 2019, 21:37:38
An old photo of Stephen Harper in Indigenous garb is being misrepresented online

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/stephen-harper-headdress-trudeau-blackface-1.5294119

In the wake of Liberal leader Justin Trudeau's blackface scandal, an image of Stephen Harper is being shared online showing the former prime minister wearing an Indigenous headdress and face paint.

Those posting the images are attempting to draw parallels between the images of Trudeau wearing blackface makeup and the photo of Harper. But Harper wasn't wearing a costume at the time — he was taking part in a ceremony naming him an honorary chief.

<More on link above>

Honestly I am surprised.  I would expect the CBC to twist this normally...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 24, 2019, 11:19:57
Some tidbits on other ways to cover elections and (at least one factor?) why we get the election coverage we get ...
Quote
… The Boston radio station WBUR, for example, is polling people in its region to find out what issues they want the 2020 presidential candidates to address; these results will direct their coverage. The Dublin Inquirer took the same tack in its coverage of the local city election, boiling down its focus to 10 key issues; increasing the supply of social and affordable housing was number 1.

The approach is referred to as the “citizens agenda” by New York University journalism professor Jay Rosen, one of the most influential media critics in North America. He has excoriated the horse-race journalism that characterizes US media coverage (and, it should be said, Canadian coverage).

“A demonstrable public service, the citizens agenda approach puts the campaign press on the side of the voters and their right to have their major concerns addressed by the people bidding for power. That is the road not taken,” Rosen wrote last year.

The Stanford University Center for Deliberative Democracy, meanwhile, is behind America in One Room, a “nationwide Deliberative Poll,” where 500 citizen delegates are brought together to engage in a nonpartisan forum with presidential candidates ...
More @ link here (https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magazines/september-2019/what-do-the-media-know-about-the-ballot-box-question/).
Quote
… When the Reform Party arrived in Ottawa in the mid-1990s there was a small but vocal group within it that could be best described as ‘perma-mad’. They were angry about everything from every decision by the Liberal government to their perceived unfair treatment by the media to cultural and social policies and immigration and everything in between. Before their feet hit the floor in the morning they were mad, they were angry about everything all day long and the last thing they thought of before falling asleep at night was how mad they were.

It was incongruous largely because it lacked perspective. Not everything is a 10-alarm fire. When everything is, then very quickly nothing is. Others in the party moved the ‘perma-mad’ crowd to the fringe, where they would erupt on occasion attracting attention. But the mainstream of the Reform party assessed political issues on their individual merits with a degree of perspective the ‘perma-mad’ gang never had.

An ironic legacy of the Reform Party, which always claimed that the media was Liberal and part of the establishment and therefore part of the problem in Canada, is that it’s now much of the media that seems ‘perma-mad’, where everything is that 10-alarm fire.

It is egged on by the cesspool of social media that captivates journalists even as the general public pays little attention, by those who are either paid to be permanently outraged or may have adopted it as a lifestyle and perhaps by the media’s increasing frustration at its marginalization in the eyes of the public. The result is campaign coverage that increasingly lacks perspective ...
More @ link here (https://outline.com/6Pu2cv) or here (https://capitalcurrent.ca/the-growing-gap-between-public-and-media-perceptions/).
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on September 24, 2019, 12:10:01
Munk Foreign Policy debate cancelled, as Liberal Party refuses to respond to invitation  [Link] (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-trudeau-no-show-leads-to-cancellation-of-munk-debate-on-foreign-policy/)
Quote
The Munk Debates
@munkdebate

The Munk Debates wishes to thank Elizabeth May, Andrew Scheer and Jagmeet Singh for accepting our invitation to debate and their willingness to face challenging questions about their foreign policy platforms.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFOiKivW4AEMBj1?format=jpg&name=small)

Last election, there were five leaders' debates;  this time, three, with none on Foreign Policy.  I guess the Liberals accept that the UN SC seat isn't coming our way, so there's no need to pontificate to the world about Canada's global awesomeness.   ::)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on September 24, 2019, 18:31:29
Remind me... these are the same guys that said Mr Harper was afraid to address the public last go round, right?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on September 24, 2019, 20:10:29
Remind me... these are the same guys that said Mr Harper was afraid to address the public last go round, right?
For the record from 2015, Harper took part in 5 debates, and declined 2.(source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_leaders%27_debates#2015_debates)). 

We'll see what the final score for Team Red ends up being, with one debate already cancelled.  :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on September 25, 2019, 08:22:56
Remind me... these are the same guys that said Mr Harper was afraid to address the public last go round, right?
    ???

Harper, Mulcair, and Trudeau participated in the Munk foreign policy debate on 28 Sep 2015. 

It's available at LINK (https://www.munkdebates.com/The-Debates/Federal-Election-Debate), if anyone is wishing Harper was back instead of Sheer.
(For some strange reason, Munk files their debates by the speakers' first names;  you'll find Stephen Harper between Stephens' Fry and Bannon.  :stars: )
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on September 26, 2019, 11:08:53
I was at the all candidates meeting at the Glebe last night. Truth be told, McKenna handled herself well last night and so did Taman (NDP). The crowd was supportive of the Green candidate but that waned as the evening progressed. There was indifference shown towards the CPC and outright hostility towards the PPC. I'll give the PPC candidate kudos for showing up and stating her case but the crowd was having none of her pitch.

McKenna brought up Ford and Harper quite a bit which brought a snort from me and some eye rolling from folks sitting beside me. One person muttered under their breath "You've had 4 years!"

Lots of promises of net zero emissions by 2030 from both the Greens and Liberals. NDP has electric buses, green industry, blah blah.

I was sitting beside a couple (husband in the Foreign Service) who liked Taman but thinks Singh is too green and cannot stand Scheer so she'll be voting Liberal. The husband was a good federal civil servant and kept his thoughts to himself.

In the line-up heading into the hall was a fellow Cold Warrior handing out Communist Party of Canada pamphlets. I acknowledged his service as he did mine and I took a pamphlet. It was full of the usual stuff and to pay for it all was a 75% cut in the CAF. Some things never change.
Had to give him kudos for keeping up the cause though, because right on cue at the start of the introductions he caused a bit of kerfuffle yelling about the illegitimacy of the proceedings since all the candidates were not on the stage.
He was quietly escorted to the back of the room to hang out with the other also-ran candidates.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 26, 2019, 21:49:28
https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

latest poll aggregate from Eric Grenier.

This election makes no sense...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on September 26, 2019, 22:03:01
https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

latest poll aggregate from Eric Grenier.

This election makes no sense...

Nanos' results today from the 905 area (Toronto suburbs) must have panic setting in in some circles; one does not drop over 7% in a week, go from a comfortable lead to a dead heat, and not FREAK OUT!
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on September 26, 2019, 22:45:36
If anyone has any doubts about the influence of the anti-gun lobby and the Liberal end game on gun control, pay very close attention to the imagery in this Liberal campaign video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGI1O7fBv8I).  Except for the Uzi at 0:19, which appears to be in the hands of a European police officer, those aren't illegal guns, and those people - including Conservative leader Andrew Scheer and Conservative candidate Michele Rempel -  aren't gang bangers.  Totally dishonest, if you ask me.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on September 27, 2019, 08:55:58
If anyone has any doubts about the influence of the anti-gun lobby and the Liberal end game on gun control, pay very close attention to the imagery in this Liberal campaign video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGI1O7fBv8I).  Except for the Uzi at 0:19, which appears to be in the hands of a European police officer, those aren't illegal guns, and those people - including Conservative candidate Michele Rempel -  aren't gang bangers.  Totally dishonest, if you ask me.

If you go and read the comments (yes, some of us are do) and just about everyone is against the video.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on September 27, 2019, 09:49:31
If you go and read the comments (yes, some of us do) and just about everyone is against the video.
  Comments notwithstanding, the Liberal message is out there.  All guns are bad and we're coming for them.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jonezy76 on September 27, 2019, 10:52:37
The CCFR just received 3rd party status. They have a big announcement today.

Quote
"Big announcement coming this Friday at 3pm Pacific\6pm Eastern on the CCFR Radio Podcast, BIG.

You'll see how far the CCFR is willing to go to save our guns.


Want to know how committed the CCFR is to saving your guns this October 21st? Tune in at:
https://podcast.ccfr.ca/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6h...1WUEugMSKermUA
iTunes, Spotify, and all your other apps!!
Don't miss this announcement!

Get on our mailing list. We send about one email a month (if that): http://www.firearmrights.ca

Rod Giltaca, CEO & Executive Director
Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights
www.firearmrights.ca"
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on September 27, 2019, 11:21:35
The CCFR just received 3rd party status. They have a big announcement today.
  I believe the CCFR has had third party status for quite a while.  CSSA has recently registered as a result of a Liberal candidate's complaint against their PSA protecting gun ownership.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 27, 2019, 13:19:47

if anyone has any doubts about doing politics differently or Trudeau's stance on women, this just helps cement those doubts.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/liberal-leader-trudeau-denies-mp-pushed-out-for-not-lauding-him-as-feminist-1.4610019

https://torontosun.com/news/national/election-2019/lilley-trudeaus-troubling-pattern-with-strong-women
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on September 27, 2019, 23:30:47
At what point does political commentary become libel?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-attacks-conservative-candidate-1.5297446
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on September 28, 2019, 11:43:57
At what point does political commentary become libel?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-attacks-conservative-candidate-1.5297446

Par for course. In this case a reporter for a right-leaning think tank was refused access  access to public rallies and refused to give a reason.

Quote

'You've got to go': Liberals apologize to conservative broadcaster banned from public rally

'They wouldn't even recognize me as a Canadian citizen wanting to hear a prime minister speak at an event,' Andrew Lawton said

Stuart Thomson   September 26, 2019 8:23 PM EDT

The Liberal Party has apologized to a journalist who was booted from one of Justin Trudeau’s public rallies in Thunder Bay, Ont., on Wednesday.

Andrew Lawton, a conservative broadcaster who has worked in journalism since 2013, says despite the apology he’s still fighting to get access to the kind of media events the party has barred him from this week, and he’s at a loss to explain why he’s been targeted.

“I actually take a great deal of pride in my career, that I have the relationships I do with people of all parties. I’m not someone who does stunts, I’m not someone who disrupts events. I’m not someone who protests. I like to have an honest dialogue,” said Lawton.

For five years, he hosted the Andrew Lawton show in London, Ont., ending in 2018 and was a columnist for Global News.

    To summarize: I'm still fighting for access to press conferences and media events. The difference now is that I'm not at risk of being arrested for attending public rallies.
    — Andrew Lawton (@AndrewLawton) September 26, 2019

Lawton says the True North Centre, a right-leaning think tank and journalism outlet where he is a fellow, even raised thousands of dollars for him to join the Liberal campaign on the media bus, but the party turned him away on Sunday when he tried to join the  tour.

On Monday, he was unable to get details of a Trudeau press event in Niagara Falls, so he tried to follow the bus to the venue. He was soon pulled over by a police officer who questioned him for about 15 minutes and who said he didn’t think Lawton was doing anything illegal, Lawton said.

On Tuesday, he was barred from a Trudeau policy announcement in Burnaby, B.C. and told that he was not an “accredited” journalist. After being turned away from Trudeau’s event, Lawton said the New Democratic Party happily admitted him to their party’s event nearby, where he was able to quiz leader Jagmeet Singh.

Lawton then hopped on a plane to Thunder Bay where he planned to cover Trudeau’s public rally on Wednesday night. He filled in an RSVP form and stood in line for about an hour before a campaign worker approached him, took his photograph and then showed it to the police officers in attendance. The officers promptly asked him to leave the venue. Lawton asked the officers why he was being removed and they said they didn’t know. The Liberals also gave him no answers.

“They wouldn’t even recognize me as a Canadian citizen wanting to hear a prime minister speak at an event,” said Lawton. “They didn’t say, ‘We’re worried you’re going to disrupt it.’ They didn’t say there’s a security concern. They just said, ‘You’ve got to go’.”

    This has nothing to do with media credentials or accreditation. This was an ejection from a public rally. Not even a townhall where there was a risk I could *gasp* ask a question. What do the Liberals find so scary about me?
    — Andrew Lawton (@AndrewLawton) September 25, 2019

Lawton said he wasn’t sure whether he was personally being targeted or if the Liberal Party had a problem with the True North Centre.

The think tank and news outlet, which is a registered charity, has been described by founder Candice Malcolm as “a cross between the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and the Fraser Institute but for national security and immigration.” It’s designed to bring a right wing perspective to those issues and Lawton identifies himself as a conservative. He emphasizes that he’s “small c conservative,” not a partisan, although he did run for the Ontario Progressive Conservatives in the 2018 election. During that race, Lawton had to apologize for offensive comments he had made in the past.

Lawton has been barred from three Liberal news conferences, in Burnaby, Brampton and Hamilton, with little explanation other than he wasn’t “accredited.” Lawton says he watched two people approach a campaign worker and get admitted on the spot in Burnaby and he’s struggled to get an explanation of what “accredited” means, when there’s no formal process for Canadian journalists.

Many journalists who cover the government in Ottawa are part of the parliamentary press gallery, but that’s not required for election campaign events and local media and foreign media have covered events featuring all the major parties.

From his discussions with Liberal campaign staff, Lawton said he think “they don’t really have a working definition” for media accreditation.

“So my position is that they’re making it up on the spot,” he said.

    Chris Selley: The Liberal campaign trail is a place for absurdities, but not much else

Lawton acknowledges that the Liberal Party has the right to remove anyone they like for the events, but the idea that they would remove a journalist and bar him from press conferences worries him.

“There is a leadership by example question here, specifically with this government, who, back during Stephen Harper’s time was priding itself on being the party that would be open to the press, and would allow all reporters to come and ask the tough questions,” said Lawton.

“And it’s also the party that was thumping its chest years ago, and saying that it doesn’t kick people out of rallies for not being supporters. And, you know, there’s a hypocrisy in what they’ve done,” he said.

Perhaps the most baffling thing to Lawton is that he’s asked Trudeau questions at a press conference before. On Wednesday, he posted a two-year-old photo of himself and Trudeau posing for a photo together after a media event.

• Email: sxthomson@postmedia.com | Twitter: stuartxthomson

 Article Link (https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/youve-got-to-go-liberals-apologize-to-conservative-broadcaster-banned-from-public-rallies)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on September 28, 2019, 19:58:46
Par for course. In this case a reporter for a right-leaning think tank was refused access  access to public rallies and refused to give a reason.


I feel like the part where police asked him to leave without a reason shouldnt of happened. Police should in my opinion demand a credible reason as to why they have to remove a person who is standing in line. The fact the liberals are banning right leaning journalists just shows they arent as pen and transparent as they have lied abou....i mean told the public.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Fishbone Jones on September 28, 2019, 23:09:28
Should we really be concerned about the promises he keeps making? After all, he hasn't really kept any from the last four years, has he?

Except his gun confiscation, that one is doable. And at the risk of ridicule and derision, it's the next step in the move to socialism. An armed society cannot be controlled by dishonest politicians who seek to control every aspect of our lives.

Communism is the only governance that you can vote yourself into, but have to shoot your way out of.

Viva Brazil.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 29, 2019, 00:33:48
Trudeau didn't just paint his face black. He went all out and wore a wig and painted his legs black. So much for the just an innocent mistake of poor judgement at an Arabian Nights party.

https://twitter.com/seanmurphy_ott/status/1178014656037883905/video/1

Gotta respect that kind of attention to detail.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 29, 2019, 20:46:24
Latest poll tracker has the LPC regaining some ground.

Not enough to get back to majority territory but enough for a minority. 

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Infanteer on September 29, 2019, 21:45:06
Should we really be concerned about the promises he keeps making? After all, he hasn't really kept any from the last four years, has he?

Actually, he's kept over half....

https://trudeaumetre.polimeter.org/

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/a-look-at-policy-areas-scrutinized-by-a-new-book-on-the-trudeau-government

Quote
Communism is the only governance that you can vote yourself into, but have to shoot your way out of.

Really?  Are you sure that's true?  Aside from Romania, nobody really shot their way out of communism in 1989-1990 - their bloated regimes just kind of keeled over and handed over power.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on September 30, 2019, 09:15:04
Really?  Are you sure that's true? 
Objective truth is meaningless to some people.


From CBC Radio (https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/make-debate-great-again-how-bad-political-argument-is-undermining-democracy-1.5298110), "Make debate great again: How bad political argument is undermining democracy":
Quote
…. growing political polarization, hyper-politicized social media, and the echo chambers we inhabit online and off create a perfect storm of imperfect argument.

These depictions signal that the people on the other side "aren't even worth listening to, because the views that they have are so 'extreme and crazy,' there couldn't be any profitable reasoning with them."
There are  people I find not worth listening to;  I accept that it makes me part of the problem.  To 'extreme and crazy' however, I would add those who openly embrace compulsive lying.  The only way they can apparently make their case is through lies, deceit, and misdirection -- merely being repetitive doesn't magically change it into truth.

And it's not getting better, as "debates simultaneously are becoming both shrill and tone deaf."    :not-again:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 30, 2019, 17:07:45
This from the just released Liberal Platform will make me vote Liberal in this election.  This is something ALL party's should be doing in my opinion.


The Liberals care so much they waited until 19 days before the election to unveil this, after being in office for 4 years   ::)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on September 30, 2019, 18:29:02
“The things that mean so much to you don’t mean that much to me.” Neil Young
Except until 3 weeks before an election ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on September 30, 2019, 18:46:30
This, if true, (https://canoe.com/news/national/election-2019/andrew-scheer-accused-of-breaking-law-falsely-claiming-he-was-an-insurance-broker) could spell the end of the Conservative election chances.  Team Trudeau will latch onto this like a starving pitbull and run hard with it.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on September 30, 2019, 18:58:25
This, if true, (https://canoe.com/news/national/election-2019/andrew-scheer-accused-of-breaking-law-falsely-claiming-he-was-an-insurance-broker) could spell the end of the Conservative election chances.  Team Trudeau will latch onto this like a starving pitbull and run hard with it.

Was a bad day for him today.  Between that and the kerfufle with a rebel media type Scheer is back on the defensive.

And yes you are right.  The CPC constantly hit Trudeau as not as advertised, focused on his snowboard instructor and teacher experience.  This puts egg on their face.  Scheer has been trying to show that he is not just a career politician and had real world experience.

Hard to hit Trudeau on the work experience front when Scheer appears to have even less.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Infanteer on September 30, 2019, 21:22:21
If Canadians don't care about one guy dancing around with his face painted black about two decades ago, they certainly won't care about another guy claiming to have been an insurance salesman.... :rofl:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on September 30, 2019, 21:46:17
If Canadians don't care about one guy dancing around with his face painted black about two decades ago, they certainly won't care about another guy claiming to have been an insurance salesman.... :rofl:

Sheer’s got the trick though- if you’re gonna Walt, Walt small.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on September 30, 2019, 21:47:55
Interesting piece at Macleans about the urban / rural divide, looking at Conservative / Liberal parties, using population density of ridings as a rural / urban proxy.

TL;DR: The fifty ridings with the most dense populations are all projected Liberal or NDP; at the other end of the spectrum, the leaning is heavily conservative.

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/338canada-the-urban-rural-divide-right-along-party-lines/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on September 30, 2019, 21:54:41
If Canadians don't care about one guy dancing around with his face painted black about two decades ago, they certainly won't care about another guy claiming to have been an insurance salesman.... :rofl:

I really don't care about Trudeau's black face issues years ago because even though I think it was stupid, I don't think anyone things he is/was a racist.  I know of other people who did that back then an it wasn't an issue.  Scheer on the other hand may have broken a law which is a big deal to me, especially because he kept the lie going.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on September 30, 2019, 22:23:44
I really don't care about Trudeau's black face issues years ago because even though I think it was stupid, I don't think anyone things he is/was a racist.  I know of other people who did that back then an it wasn't an issue.  Scheer on the other hand may have broken a law which is a big deal to me, especially because he kept the lie going.

Since you seem to be prepared to give Trudeau a bye on multiple acts of racist dress up, the Norman affair, the SNC Lavalin affair, multiple instances of lying and promising to put in place multiple years of $20 billion deficits, you'll have to excuse me if I get a bit technical here.

The Saskatchewan Insurance Act provides that:

Quote
419(1) No agent shall engage in the insurance brokerage business or hold himself
out as an insurance broker unless he is specifically authorized by his licence to
engage in the insurance brokerage business.

The purpose of the Act is to protect the public from unauthorized individuals acting or representing themselves as brokers in their dealing with clients/the public. There have been no allegations by anyone that he acted as a broker or held himself out as a broker while employed in that business. My understanding is that at the time he worked as an employee of a properly authorized broker for a short period of time.

Adding the statement that you were once a broker, to a political resume is not holding yourself out as a "current broker". If the allegation is true it's, as previously indicated, a walting but not a criminal offence. It's not right for him to have done that but it doesn't rise above a low level of aggrandisement and falls far below what Trudeau has and is doing (Can't recall how many times I did blackface - yeah, right).

We all tend to give a bit more leeway to the guy that represents the party we want in power but in this case it seems to me that congratulations are in order to the LPC for having convinced at least one voter buy into the slight-of-hand shell game they are running here to deflect from their boy's gross shortcomings.

 :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on September 30, 2019, 22:35:09
I really don't care about Trudeau's black face issues years ago because even though I think it was stupid, I don't think anyone things he is/was a racist.  I know of other people who did that back then an it wasn't an issue.  Scheer on the other hand may have broken a law which is a big deal to me, especially because he kept the lie going.

Exactly!

Federal laws, such as the Canadian Conflict of Interests Acts, particularly Where politicians are involved, should be adhered to not only for the legal requirement to do so, but also to reinforce the influence and accountability that holds politicians to a higher standard...especially Section 9 (https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/trudeau-breached-federal-ethics-rules-in-snc-lavalin-affair-ethics-commissioner/). :nod:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on September 30, 2019, 22:41:28
Since you seem to be prepared to give Trudeau a bye on multiple acts of racist dress up, the Norman affair, the SNC Lavalin affair, multiple instances of lying and promising to put in place multiple years of $20 billion deficits, you'll have to excuse me if I get a bit technical here.

The Saskatchewan Insurance Act provides that:

The purpose of the Act is to protect the public from unauthorized individuals acting or representing themselves as brokers in their dealing with clients/the public. There have been no allegations by anyone that he acted as a broker or held himself out as a broker while employed in that business. My understanding is that at the time he worked as an employee of a properly authorized broker for a short period of time.

Adding the statement that you were once a broker, to a political resume is not holding yourself out as a "current broker". If the allegation is true it's, as previously indicated, a walting but not a criminal offence. It's not right for him to have done that but it doesn't rise above a low level of aggrandisement and falls far below what Trudeau has and is doing (Can't recall how many times I did blackface - yeah, right).

We all tend to give a bit more leeway to the guy that represents the party we want in power but in this case it seems to me that congratulations are in order to the LPC for having convinced at least one voter buy into the slight-of-hand shell game they are running here to deflect from their boy's gross shortcomings.

 :pop:

While I don't agree with the Blackface thing he did, I don't think he is racist at all.  Not sure about Scheer but even the other party leaders have come out saying he is not racist.  I honestly don't ever recall especially back in the 90's, anyone every saying that was racist. I've heard a lot of people express similar thoughts.  I think a big problem in this country is that we often look at how Americans view things and then make decisions based on that.  I'm having trouble explaining that one better but hopefully it's clear.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on September 30, 2019, 23:30:02
I really don't care about Trudeau's black face issues years ago because even though I think it was stupid, I don't think anyone things he is/was a racist. 

The professor on this podcast makes some really good points about blackface in Canada. I don't agree with all of her points but she has opened my eyes to the extent of this phenomenon within Canada.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on October 01, 2019, 00:16:07
The professor on this podcast makes some really good points about blackface in Canada. I don't agree with all of her points but she has opened my eyes to the extent of this phenomenon within Canada.

Which podcast would that be?

 :cheers:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 01, 2019, 00:23:07
This

https://youtu.be/Do4r2kU2oB4

Compared to Scheer allegedly suggesting he sold insurance or something?  Which to you is worse than what Trudeau with the SNC BS?

You're going to vote for Trudeau no matter what he does.  ::)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on October 01, 2019, 06:48:54
Which podcast would that be?

 :cheers:

Whoops! Senior moment!
https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/296-two-centuries-of-blackface-in-canada/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 01, 2019, 07:13:08
This

https://youtu.be/Do4r2kU2oB4

Compared to Scheer allegedly suggesting he sold insurance or something?  Which to you is worse than what Trudeau with the SNC BS?

You're going to vote for Trudeau no matter what he does.  ::)


Sounds a lot like the same thing we are seeing south of the border only on different sides of the political spectrum. 

This is what happens when polarization takes hold.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 01, 2019, 08:39:51
Compared to Scheer allegedly suggesting he sold insurance or something?  Which to you is worse than what Trudeau with the SNC BS?
Just because one's worse doesn't mean the other's OK. 

I suspect there'd be more than a few "stolen valour" themed memes out there if PMJT was spotted with the same level of discrepancy on his resume -- like if he was a teacher's aide when claiming to be a licensed teacher.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 01, 2019, 08:55:06
Compared to Scheer allegedly suggesting he sold insurance or something?  Which to you is worse than what Trudeau with the SNC BS?

A lot of people are so detached from the SNC thing that they either don't care because it does not affect them or they truly don't have a grasp of it.

But people understand what lying on a resume is when applying for a job.

 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: 211RadOp on October 01, 2019, 09:10:10
Quote
West Nova PPC candidate drops name from ballot, pointing to Bernier’s ‘failed leadership’

Graeme Benjamin
 
14 hrs ago

The People’s Party of Canada (PPC) candidate for the district of West Nova has announced he will no longer run for the party, claiming Maxime Bernier’s rhetoric has become too divisive.

In a social media statement Monday afternoon, Chad Hudson announced he would no longer stand as the district’s PPC candidate due to “recent information regarding the People’s Party of Canada’s values” and the “choices its leadership have made.”

“It was really just a drip, drip, drip of just a steady stream of very unpleasant things,” Hudson told Global News in a phone interview Monday.

Hudson says several of Bernier's decisions have left him feeling uneasy. First was when it was revealed that one of the signatories who supported the creation of the PPC is a former leader of a U.S. neo-Nazi group.

Aside from that, Hudson also doesn’t agree with how Bernier is bringing what he calls a "Donald Trump-style of politics" north of the border.

<snip>

For Hudson, the tipping point was Bernier’s attack on international climate activist Greta Thunberg, where he called the 16-year-old with autism "mentally unstable."

“In spite of any disability that might be there, she speaks more eloquently than most people in public life do,” Hudson says. “(Bernier's) decision to go after her on a personal level, calling her mentally unstable, I think that’s sickening, quite frankly.”

More at http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/west-nova-ppc-candidate-drops-name-from-ballot-pointing-to-berniers-failed-leadership/ar-AAI4LUO?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/west-nova-ppc-candidate-drops-name-from-ballot-pointing-to-berniers-failed-leadership/ar-AAI4LUO?ocid=ientp)

 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on October 01, 2019, 09:11:37
Just because one's worse doesn't mean the other's OK. 

I suspect there'd be more than a few "stolen valour" themed memes out there if PMJT was spotted with the same level of discrepancy on his resume -- like if he was a teacher's aide when claiming to be a licensed teacher.

True. In this world of instant online research (not all of it legit) why would a person running for office ever think of enhancing their resume? There is no good reason for it and just sets you up for ridicule.

So Scheer never had a "profession" before joining politics. Big deal, he joined as a staffer at a young age and was able to make a career of it. Trudeau, at least had name recognition when he jumped into politics, but his resume is just about as thin as Scheer's if you really look at it.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 01, 2019, 09:32:06
But people understand what lying on a resume is when applying for a job.

It's been pointed out to CAF applicants on here.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 01, 2019, 10:02:27
True. In this world of instant online research (not all of it legit) why would a person running for office ever think of enhancing their resume? There is no good reason for it and just sets you up for ridicule.

So Scheer never had a "profession" before joining politics. Big deal, he joined as a staffer at a young age and was able to make a career of it. Trudeau, at least had name recognition when he jumped into politics, but his resume is just about as thin as Scheer's if you really look at it.

The conservatives have been making a big deal about Trudeau's previous employment for years. 

Hard for Scheer to claim he's just like us when he never was. He's benn trying hard to show he isn't a career politician.

Hippocrytes on both sides.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 01, 2019, 10:07:06
I'll offer the same solution as last election -- leave Parliament in recess (unpaid), and we'll revisit every 6 months or so and see if we need any more legislation.  :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 01, 2019, 10:15:19
I'll offer the same solution as last election -- leave Parliament in recess (unpaid), and we'll revisit every 6 months or so and see if we need any more legislation.  :pop:
Like Northern Ireland since January of 2017 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Assembly) - only their members seem to still be getting paid - albeit a bit less than before (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45434415).
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 01, 2019, 12:08:45
For sure.  And choosing an unelectable leader with links to an unpopular provincial premier who promised one thing and did another.

Apply that to whatever side you want ;)

But one side in the election is being far more successful at defining the other side.

Indeed. With everything the CPC have had in their magazine to fire off at the LPC in this election, it should have been theirs to lose. If come the day after we haven’t changed governments, it rests pretty much entirely on the dumpster fire that was the CPC leadership selection, and the drab and uninspiring result.

At least it paves the way for someone better...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 01, 2019, 12:39:53
A bit of what Team Blue is promising (https://www.conservative.ca/andrew-scheer-details-plan-to-reclaim-canadian-leadership-on-the-world-stage/) - highlights mine ...
Quote
Today, Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer detailed his plan for delivering strong Conservative leadership on the world stage.

On the same day the Munk debate on foreign policy was supposed to take place before Justin Trudeau forced its cancellation, Scheer shared details around four key pillars of his foreign policy plan which include:

    Cutting 25% of foreign aid spending – The reduction will come from middle- and upper-income countries as well as hostile regimes. We will use the savings to pay for policies that help Canadians get ahead at home and also redirect $700 million to strengthen foreign aid in the countries that need it most. We will continue to work in partnership with leading Canadian aid organizations including volunteer-focused groups who provide much-needed assistance to developing countries.

    Strengthening Canada’s commitment to traditional alliances and providing additional military and non-military support to Ukraine.

    Advocating for human rights on the world stage by using Canada’s Magnitsky legislation to target hostile regimes like Iran.

    Depoliticizing military procurement in order to properly and expediently supply the Canadian Armed Forces
...
More details @ link & in attached 3 pager - with a fair number of military commitments there as well. A couple of stand-outs for me in the 3 pager ...
Quote
... Provide military defensive aid to Ukraine’s military and restore access to Canada’s RADARSAT-2 data to Ukraine.

Advocate at the United Nations for Canadian leadership in a peacekeeping mission to secure Ukraine’s borders and expand Operation UNIFIER, Canada’s military training mission in Ukraine. 
Kinda hard leading a peacekeeping mission when you've already picked a side - sorta like if the Russians offered to lead such a mission in Ukraine.  :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on October 01, 2019, 13:03:06
All of those things have gotten, and continue to get, plenty of attention.

We shall see in three weeks if we do in fact deserve better. Better alternative options would not have hurt.

The last time an electorate was faced with two bad choices, too many of the proper thinking voters stayed home and as a result Trump squeaked into office. Every once in a while you have to swallow your bile and just vote for the least offensive choice. BUT. You have to vote.

 :clubinhand:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 01, 2019, 13:20:42
I realized we got sidetracked here and inadvertantly cluttered the re:Veterans thread- can a mod chop the digression over to the election thread please?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on October 01, 2019, 13:25:23
If we see Trudeau loose, I wonder how the liberal party as a whole will react at the next convention? would the majority still support him or would they oust him?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 01, 2019, 13:40:25
If we see Trudeau loose, I wonder how the liberal party as a whole will react at the next convention? would the majority still support him or would they oust him?

If he loses he's done.  If he wins a minority he'll be hanging by a thread and might not run in the next one.  Depends on who is waiting in the wings on both sides.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 01, 2019, 14:14:42
Global has a good piece here on the crappy choices we have.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5948569/ipsos-poll-canada-election-undecided-voters/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 01, 2019, 14:23:48
... If he wins a minority he'll be hanging by a thread and might not run in the next one ...
I'll go a step further and predict that if he wins a minority, the blades will be razor honed and out October 22, with leadership hopefuls circling like sharks around the bloody chum.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 01, 2019, 14:34:56
https://torontosun.com/news/national/election-2019/gunter-trudeaus-camping-pledge-is-peak-privilege

Quote
GUNTER: Trudeau's camping pledge is peak privilege

Now Justin Trudeau’s privilege truly is showing.

I’m talking about Trudeau’s announcement Thursday that the planet can be saved and the plight of the urban poor reversed if only we would spend gobs of taxpayers’ dollars getting underprivileged urchins out camping. The alleged climate “crisis” and chronic poverty whisked away with some tents and sleeping bags and, of course, government-subsidized trips to the woods.

This is at one and the same time one of the most patronizing and one of the most naive policies ever proposed during a Canadian election.

While at university I had a dorm mate who smoked a LOT of weed one night and was sure he had discovered the meaning of life. In his cannabis-induced haze he scribbled his answer down lest he forget it when his buzz dissipated. His insight, “This room smells funny,” was no more absurd than our prime minister’s “Camping Experience for Every Child in Canada.”

Trudeau is so far removed from the lives of ordinary Canadians, he just can’t comprehend regular people’s realities.

After he was caught doing blackface three(!) times, Trudeau tried to blame his serial racism on the “layers of privilege” he had had to bear in his upbringing. In that instance, the “privilege” excuse was nonsense.

But Trudeau’s proposal to spend $150 million a year on “bursaries” for 75,000 low-income families to spend four days annually in a provincial or national park is the airy dream of a privileged elitist and cries out to be lampooned.

More at link.

If he gets in again, they'll be lots more people living in tents.

And they won't be camping on the taxpayers dime.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 01, 2019, 14:35:48
Which ever of the two larger parties win may require the other to form a workable government. Neither the NDP, Greens, nor Bloc are in favour of oil development, which with the Liberals buying TMX, and the Conservatives wanting a resource corridor would seem to be a show stopper for either of them.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 01, 2019, 14:37:09
If he gets in again, they'll be lots more people living in tents.

And they won't be camping on the taxpayers dime.

Actually, they will. Where do you think social service costs come from?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 01, 2019, 16:14:10
“But Trudeau’s proposal to spend $150 million a year on “bursaries” for 75,000 low-income families to spend four days annually in a provincial or national park...”

- taking a page out of Strength Through Joy.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 01, 2019, 16:55:05
Same.  They will not be getting a majority.  A minority situation keeps them a bit more honest but only because they have no choice.

Unfortunately at this point we are far from being able to rule out a majority. It’s well within the margin of error for seat projections.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 01, 2019, 17:31:33

Imagine what the CAF, the Police forces and Canada in general would look like if we stopped letting figures in positions of authority get away disgusting behavior.

Yea but he was young and we all do stupid things when we're young.
Yea but he didn't know any better.
Yea but it was 20 years ago.
Yea but it wasn't really illegal.
Yea but he feels really bad and said sorry.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: suffolkowner on October 01, 2019, 17:32:58
Unfortunately at this point we are far from being able to rule out a majority. It’s well within the margin of error for seat projections.

I agree that a Liberal majority is easily possible but I still think that the Conservative vote is probably being undersold and the vote split on the left has to help the Conservatives. I can see any close Liberal wins from the last election going Conservative this time
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 01, 2019, 17:35:11
No chief of police, senior officer, senior civil servant, “c” level occupant of any political, institutional, and probably even publicly traded corporation would get away with it.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 01, 2019, 17:45:13
Imagine what the CAF, the Police forces and Canada in general would look like if we stopped letting figures in positions of authority get away disgusting behavior.

Brown-face / Black-face is bad behavior.

How about resumes?
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSKy-sR7ka84I_JPRvLFWthkndEHw%3A1569962576663&ei=ULqTXYuZKPCIggejnqSoAw&q=scheer+resume&oq=scheer+resume&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..55519...0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.5bVrcU7O5-I&ved=0ahUKEwiLgcWt9vvkAhVwhOAKHSMPCTUQ4dUDCAo#spf=1569962635669
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 01, 2019, 18:08:51
Brown-face / Black-face is bad behavior.

How about resumes?
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSKy-sR7ka84I_JPRvLFWthkndEHw%3A1569962576663&ei=ULqTXYuZKPCIggejnqSoAw&q=scheer+resume&oq=scheer+resume&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..55519...0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.5bVrcU7O5-I&ved=0ahUKEwiLgcWt9vvkAhVwhOAKHSMPCTUQ4dUDCAo#spf=1569962635669

Grasping at straws buddy. Not even the nice thick McDicks milkshake straws either  ;)

Do you know what Trudeau was doing around the same time? Groping women at parties then apologizing when he found out they were somebodies and not nobodies.

Is groping women bad behavior too?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 01, 2019, 18:19:52
Grasping at straws buddy.

Guess so, buddy. Are you ok with Mr. Scheer and his resume?

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 01, 2019, 18:47:54
Guess so, buddy. Are you ok with Mr. Scheer and his resume?

Okay with? I think it was a dumb thing to do. Maybe he fudged it, maybe he flat out lied about it.

Compared to the crap Trudeau has done? Light years apart.

 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 01, 2019, 20:04:04
Brian Lilley puts trudeau in a nutshell.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-trudeau-should-choose-truth-for-a-change?fbclid=IwAR3batoDgAEser75voFlORs448YZ5UxAHXhGJfRwYEi5YHGkTT8KLDwElv0

LILLEY: Trudeau should choose truth for a change

Quote

Even in Montreal, Justin Trudeau couldn’t help but campaign against Ontario’s premier.

The PM was announcing a new plan to plant 2 billion trees over the next 10 years when he took his latest shot at Doug Ford.

“Doug Ford tried to ax tree planting in Ontario. A shortsighted decision not just for our environment but for the hundreds of seasonal jobs that it puts at risk,” Trudeau said.

The Liberal leader was in Montreal to join the climate march that was mostly denouncing him and his government for not doing enough and denouncing his purchase of the Trans Mountain Pipeline.

Trudeau’s answer to them is that his government will plant trees, and Conservatives, like Doug Ford, hate trees. Except that’s not true.

Like much of what Trudeau has been saying about Ford as he crosses Canada campaigning against Ontario’s premier, the tree claim is twisted like an old root bursting out of the ground.

Ontario did drop their 50 million tree program, first started in 2007, but they did so because it wasn’t planting enough trees. It averaged about 2.5 million trees a year and had not met the goals that were set when it was established and was not cost-effective.

By comparison, Ontario’s forestry industry plants 68 million trees a year without government subsidy.

But hey, why let facts get in the way of attacking your opponent, or actually, not even your opponent. Doug Ford’s name won’t appear on a single ballot this election but from coast to coast, Justin Trudeau is campaigning against the Ontario premier.

“Are you not misleading voters by campaigning against somebody who isn’t even on the ballot and has different policies than Mr. Scheer?” Trudeau was asked by CTV reporter Glen McGregor on Thursday.

Trudeau’s response was to mislead anyone watching by attacking Ford and claiming those same policies belong to Andrew Scheer.

“You know who misled voters? Doug Ford said he was for the people and turned around and cut services for everyone while cutting taxes for the wealthiest,” Trudeau said.

I asked his campaign to name the tax cuts for the wealthiest that they keep mentioning at every turn because I couldn’t find these big tax cuts in any Ontario government document like say, the budget.

“Doug Ford eliminated a surtax on the highest earning Ontarians. He also cut estate taxes, further benefiting the wealthiest 1%,” said Trudeau spokesperson Eleanore Catenaro.

I looked up this supposed surtax cut, it doesn’t exist. The tax rates in Ontario under Doug Ford are the same as they were under former Liberal premier Kathleen Wynne.

All that happened is that Ford cancelled a tax hike that Wynne had proposed but not implemented.

As for estate taxes, the biggest tax cut there is eliminated a $250 fee for anyone settling the estate of a deceased loved one valued at less than $50,000. Is that how we now define the 1%?

Justin Trudeau has spent a lot of time talking about positive politics and against the politics of fear. He’s spoken out against politicians who distort the truth to make their point and he even passed legislation to try to deal with misinformation being spread during elections.

Yet at stop after stop, he tells outright lies about his opponents. He doesn’t just torque or twist the truth to make him look better than his opponents — he lies.

I’ve been around politics long enough to know that this isn’t just a problem with Trudeau or the Liberal Party alone. But for him to continually preach that we can’t campaign on fear and that facts matter is a bit rich.

I’d like to start hearing the truth from Justin Trudeau but given how he has reacted to SNC-Lavalin, blackface and other problems he’s faced, I won’t be holding my breath
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 01, 2019, 20:47:32
If he loses he's done.  If he wins a minority he'll be hanging by a thread and might not run in the next one.  Depends on who is waiting in the wings on both sides.

Agreed. Liberals eat their own.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 01, 2019, 21:15:51
Agreed. Liberals eat their own.

Liberals, like any party, reward forward movement. Stop moving the party forward? See ya. The sun rises and sets on political leaders of any stripe. One of the two contender parties is likely gonna be looking for a new boss before the year is out.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 01, 2019, 21:51:04
How can anyone even remotely want a guy (Scheer) with next to zero experience working in the real world to be our leader.? He has no idea what it's like in real life.  Trudeau had a privileged upbringing but he shouldn't be faulted because of that.  He at least had several jobs before going into politics and please nobody tell me being an art teacher isn't a real job.  You don't need to be a bricklayer or Truck driver to have been a hard worker.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 01, 2019, 22:07:18
He has no idea what it's like in real life. 

Probably going to be a lot of back and forth over who is most, or least, qualified.

As far as I can tell, to get into politics in this country, one must be a Canadian citizen ( don't have to be born here ), over the age of 18, and have a pulse.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Loachman on October 01, 2019, 22:10:53
There is yet hope...

https://election.ctvnews.ca/the-greta-effect-nanos-survey-suggests-young-voters-turning-on-trudeau-1.4616701

The Greta effect? Nanos survey suggests young voters turning on Trudeau

Ryan Flanagan CTVNews.ca Writer

Published Monday, September 30, 2019 10:29AM EDT

<snip>

TORONTO - Support for Justin Trudeau among young voters appears to have plummeted in the wake of the Liberal leader’s meeting with teenage environmental activist Greta Thunberg and the release of his party’s platform.

Polling data from Nanos Research shows that the proportion of voters aged 18 to 29 who cite Trudeau as their preferred prime minister fell from nearly 35 per cent to a little more than 24 per cent within 24 hours.

<snip>

Combining all age groups, the gap between Trudeau’s personal popularity and Scheer’s is now the smallest it has been since the campaign began.

Nanos registered support for Trudeau as preferred prime minister as 28.26 per cent, compared to 27.99 per cent for Scheer. Another 18 per cent of voters are undecided on this score.

<snip>

https://o.canada.com/news/politics/election-2019/john-ivison-poll-shows-more-people-are-starting-to-believe-scheer-really-could-become-pm/wcm/30c30d35-8511-4933-83b7-7ff964fcee8c

John Ivison: Poll shows more people are starting to believe Scheer really could become PM

Scheer is rolling out policy likely to find favour with people not as disposed as Trudeau to using Canadian taxpayers’ money to save the world

John Ivison   October 1, 2019

<snip>

Alberta premier Jason Kenney introduced him from the back of a pick-up truck in Edmonton last Saturday and one comment in particular resonated with the crowd. “This is a prime minister we will never have to be embarrassed about. He won’t be apologizing all the time,” Kenney said.

Scheer’s strategy has been to focus on the concerns of people who might vote Conservative and leave the Liberals, NDP and Greens to fight over issues like climate change. The calculation was made that more votes would be gained campaigning against the carbon tax than would be lost.

Fortunately for the Conservatives, affordability concerns are clear and present for the more than half of Canadians who live paycheque to paycheque. A new poll by BDO Canada suggests 53 per cent of Canadians have little disposable income, 57 per cent are carrying credit card debt and 38 per cent of 35-54 year olds have no retirement savings.

<snip>

But he is rolling out policy on a daily basis that is likely to find favour with people living paycheque to paycheque who may not be as disposed as Justin Trudeau to using Canadian taxpayers’ money to save the world.

<snip>

And, yes, "jobs" - with a student review:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-trudeaus-yearbook-tells-a-bigger-story

MALCOLM: Trudeau's yearbook tells a bigger story

Candice Malcolm   September 30, 2019

Flipping through the pages of the 2000 and 2001 West Point Grey Academy (WPGA) yearbooks, we see a different side of our progressive prime minister.

The shocking image of Justin Trudeau with painted black skin and a large white turban shows that, as the 29-year-old celebrity son of a former Prime Minister, Trudeau was hardly a serious person, let alone a mature role model or teacher.

The cringe-worthy blackface photo at the Arabian Nights gala fundraiser is just one example. Trudeau’s photo is featured over and over again in the yearbook, smiling and hanging out - looking more like a teenage student than a teacher in his late twenties.

A former student tells me that during Trudeau’s short stint at WPGA, he was the back-up drama teacher, a yearbook instructor, coach of the ultimate frisbee team and he taught French to children in the junior school. Oh, and he helped the school raise hundreds of thousands of dollars through its gala fundraising dinners.

Another student tells me, “he was nice and floated around … not a great teacher though.”

Trudeau’s photo appears no less than a dozen times in each yearbook - more than most students at the small elite private school in the West side of Vancouver.

The only photo that shows Trudeau actually teaching came in the 2000 yearbook, where Trudeau can be seen wearing a traditional Scottish Highlander outfit - a white puffy shirt, knee-high socks and a kilt - reading to children with the caption: “Mr. Trudeau loves teaching French to kindergarten students.”

Trudeau has said that he was a math teacher, but there is no mention of Trudeau teaching it at WPGA. The page featuring the school’s Mathcounts competition team lists all the teachers involved. Trudeau’s name is not included.

Trudeau is featured very prominently, however, on the school’s ultimate frisbee team page, with three different photos showing Trudeau in wild outfits — hugging and roughhousing with the students. His various costumes included black and white face paint, a big black afro wig, a kilt and a large Mickey Mouse hat.

The team was called the “MadHatters,” and the yearbook includes a poem about the team that describes Trudeau as “a loud-mouthed maniac.”

<snip>

Photographs at link.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 01, 2019, 22:20:05
>Are you ok with Mr. Scheer and his resume?

Too funny.  I've seen a lot of resumes.  Resume padding (and lying) is about as small a beer as we've ever been asked to criticize in a potential prime minister.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Loachman on October 01, 2019, 22:25:07
http://angusreid.org/election-2019-swing-ridings/

Tight race throwback: In 2015’s closest ridings CPC makes gains, Liberals decline, NDP deflates

October 1, 2019 – With just three weeks until the 43rd Canadian federal election, all eyes are on the leaders as they ready for the official debates on October 7 and 10. The attention of the party campaigns, however, is likely zeroed in on competitive ridings across the country. Every vote is important in what appears to be a close contest.

The latest study from the non-profit Angus Reid Institute examines the 67 closest ridings (20% of all ridings) from the 2015 election. Each was decided by five percentage points or fewer four years ago. By identifying these ridings and sampling exclusively within them, trends emerge that have positive and negative implications for each of the parties.

Overall, among these 67 ridings, the Liberal Party finished with a 9-point advantage in the 2015 election results. Currently, however, the Conservatives now lead vote intention in these ridings by six points.

For the Conservative Party, a marked shift overall, and significant gains in Western Canadian ridings, point to a closer national contest this time around. That said, neither the CPC nor the Liberals can yet claim the upper hand in closely contested Ontario ridings.

For the Liberals, support levels in 20 Quebec swing ridings remain close to that of four years ago, dropping slightly from 29 to 24 per cent. Notably, however, the Bloc Quebecois hold a small lead within these districts, and the CPC are now more competitive, up seven points from 2015.

The trouble for the New Democratic Party is not concentrated in one region, as its support has dwindled most everywhere when it comes to tight 2015 ridings, but the negative trend is most prominent in Quebec. In 2015, the NDP garnered 29 per cent of the vote in the most competitive ridings within that province; the party’s vote intention is now close to just one-third of that.

More Key Findings:

The Liberal Party won 33 ridings by five or fewer points in 2015, garnering 41 per cent of the aggregate vote in those districts. Current vote intention in these same ridings finds Liberal support down to 31 points, with the CPC garnering 35 per cent of the vote, up from the 30 per cent it received last election

Importantly, the Liberals defeated the Conservatives by five or fewer points in 20 electoral districts in 2015, with an aggregate vote advantage of just three points overall. The Conservatives now lead vote intention in these 20 ridings by a massive 15 points

In Western Canada, 17 ridings made for close races in 2015. Eight are currently held by the Liberals, five by the NDP and four by the CPC. The CPC advantage was one point in 2015 in these 17 ridings and now stands at 21 points

<snip>
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 01, 2019, 22:28:55
I've seen a lot of resumes.

Congratulations.

All I know about resumes is what CAF applicants are told about being honest.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 01, 2019, 22:39:32
Quote
The PM was announcing a new plan to plant 2 billion trees


The Great Oxidation Event was a time that Earth's atmosphere and the shallow ocean experienced a rise in oxygen, around 2.4 billion years ago during the Paleoproterozoic era. Geological, isotopic, and chemical evidence suggests that biologically induced molecular oxygen started to accumulate in Earth's atmosphere and changed Earth's atmosphere from a weakly reducing atmosphere to an oxidizing atmosphere,  causing almost all life on Earth to go extinct.. The causes of the event remain unclear.
-Wikipedia


 :Tin-Foil-Hat:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 01, 2019, 22:45:42
"All I know about resumes is what CAF applicants are told about being honest."

Pretty much every person is told to be honest at some point in life.  Doesn't seem to take with everybody.

"Yeah, but Scheer might have lied about a few months' employment as an insurance agent" is a weak comeback to PM JT's record in office.

Policy is probably a better ground on which to brag or criticize.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Loachman on October 01, 2019, 23:32:55
http://angusreid.org/election-2019-centre-left-scuffle/

Centre-Left Scuffle: Conservatives maintain lead as Liberals struggle to lock in vacillating progressives

October 1, 2019 – An inability so far in this 43rd election campaign for the incumbent Liberal Party to lock in left of centre voters is giving the Conservatives the widest lead they have seen since the writs were drawn September 11th.

The latest public opinion poll from the non-profit Angus Reid Institute shows the CPC seven points ahead of Justin Trudeau’s party (37% to 30%). But digging deeper beyond these topline findings reveals the Prime Minister’s biggest headache is less likely to be Andrew Scheer than Elizabeth May, Jagmeet Singh and Yves-François Blanchett.

In a week that witnessed climate strikes across the country, the three leaders representing the most significant threats to the Liberal vote have had plenty of ammunition to play to environmental purists and attack Trudeau on his environmental record.

Still, voter uncertainty, especially among identified NDP and Green offers continuing – if not frustrating – flashes of hope for the party seeking re-election. The Liberals could win back progressive voters, especially outside Quebec. But they remain stymied in attempts to turn this jelly-like base into a more solid mould.
More Key Findings:

Uncertainty in terms of vote intention on October 21 is highest among NDP and Green voters. Only one-quarter of those who intend to support each party say they are absolutely certain they will do so. This, compared to seven-in-ten (68%) CPC supporters who say their support will not waver

The NDP, which has remained stubbornly in a distant third place appears to be emerging as the top second choice on among uncommitted voters. In fact, half of uncommitted Liberals (54%) and Green supporters (53%) say the NDP is their plan B

Check of battleground provinces reveals Green Party up slightly up in British Columbia (+3), CPC up in key battleground of Ontario (+3), and Bloc Quebecois making gains in all important Quebec (+4)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: YZT580 on October 02, 2019, 00:06:50
What on earth does a yearbook instructor do?  Not a single serious lesson taught except possibly kindergarten french and even in that he had to dress-up.  I fail to see the connection between the Scottish kilt and the subject matter though.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Loachman on October 02, 2019, 00:18:07
How can anyone even remotely want a guy (Scheer) with next to zero experience working in the real world to be our leader.? He has no idea what it's like in real life.

His parents had nowhere near the wealth of Trudeau. Andrew Scheer, lengthy non-political career or not, can relate much better to the average citizen.

Trudeau had a privileged upbringing but he shouldn't be faulted because of that.

I do not fault him for that.

I fault him for his actions and behaviours.

He at least had several jobs before going into politics and please nobody tell me being an art teacher isn't a real job.  You don't need to be a bricklayer or Truck driver to have been a hard worker.

See my previous post and contemplate how hard he "worked".

And he's never, ever had to live pay cheque to pay cheque.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on October 02, 2019, 08:47:29
If the conservative numbers hold up over the weekend, expect to see the LPC go Operation Overlord on demonizing Scheer, Ford and Kenney. Mark my words it should be epic.

How would a conservative minority with NDP support look to the Canadian public? The crazies on both sides sidelined? Could it happen? One wonders.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 02, 2019, 09:10:07
Par for course. In this case a reporter for a right-leaning think tank was refused access  access to public rallies and refused to give a reason.

 Article Link (https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/youve-got-to-go-liberals-apologize-to-conservative-broadcaster-banned-from-public-rallies)
And in this case (https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2019/09/30/rebel-without-a-media-accreditation.html?fbclid=IwAR0Gs1CVO6LADLFrkpOx3thzCqxa3wUpecPB5zWcloR3kPhlDqDYRxS9omw), a reporter for a right-leaning media outlet was refused access to a public event - can't tell if he was given a reason.
Quote
It took two police forces on Monday to get the far-right Rebel Media escorted as far as possible from Andrew Scheer.

The expulsion began with an RCMP officer, part of the Conservative leader’s personal security detail, gently nudging Rebel News correspondent David Menzies away from the gaggle of media and out into a corridor as reporters awaited Scheer’s arrival.

Then, having reached the border of its jurisdiction — and with Menzies vocally holding court in the hallway, demanding his right to report — the Mounties called in the Durham Regional Police, which finished the job, banishing the rebel to a sidewalk at the outer edge of Whitby’s state-of-the-art Abilities Centre.

(...)

Asked about the ouster of Rebel during the subsequent news conference, Scheer didn’t say much. He simply repeated his pledge to not give any more interviews to the Rebel (he spoke to them once) and noted that this event was for accredited media only — indicating that the Rebel, if ever it did, no longer qualifies for such status under Conservative policy.

Conservative aides accompanying Scheer were a bit more forthcoming. While the party is unable to stop Rebel News from attending large public rallies on the campaign trail, “closed, private events” like Monday’s news announcement in Whitby are a no-go zone for the Rebel ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 02, 2019, 09:41:57
If the conservative numbers hold up over the weekend, expect to see the LPC go Operation Overlord on demonizing Scheer, Ford and Kenney.

Even without the "demonizing", Toronto remembers Ford Nation. As a matter of public safety, council had to remove their power to govern the city in a state of emergency.

Doug was booed at the Raptors parade, while the PM and mayor were cheered.

Quote
Global News

September 30, 2019

Ontario’s unpopular premier could be the deciding factor for GTA voters

BRAMPTON, Ont. — It’s hard to understate the electoral value of the Greater Toronto Area.

There are 55 seats densely packed together from Oshawa in the east, to Burlington in the west, to Newmarket in the north.

There are more seats here than in all of British Columbia, than in Alberta, or in all four Atlantic Canada provinces combined.

As a result, the Ford name is politically toxic and it threatens to tilt the playing field in the GTA towards Trudeau’s Liberals and away from Scheer and the Conservatives.

It’s no surprise, then, that Trudeau and the Liberals try at every opportunity to link Ford to Scheer. And it’s working. Don’t take my word for it: That’s what federal Conservative candidates are saying as they knock on doors in their ridings. They’re being taken to task for the sins of Ford.

Full story
https://globalnews.ca/news/5970849/analysis-ontario-unpopular-premier-doug-ford-gta-voters/






Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 02, 2019, 10:22:22
If the conservative numbers hold up over the weekend, expect to see the LPC go Operation Overlord on demonizing Scheer, Ford and Kenney. Mark my words it should be epic.

How would a conservative minority with NDP support look to the Canadian public? The crazies on both sides sidelined? Could it happen? One wonders.

Soldiers. With guns. In the streets. Spraying crude oil on everything. Especially the whales. For the love of god, think of the whales!

Does that sound about right for the next Liberal commercial?  ;)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on October 02, 2019, 10:32:37
Soldiers. With guns. In the streets. Spraying crude oil on everything. Especially the whales. For the love of god, think of the whales!

Does that sound about right for the next Liberal commercial?  ;)

I think it needs an image of the trifecta of evil water boarding Greta Thunberg to get the full effect.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 02, 2019, 10:35:02
Who is Greta waterboarding?  ;)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 02, 2019, 11:29:30
She seems to have an effect on some,
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSjrGRHVEcvcUyNGXkh7c-VSuWuhA%3A1570026383399&ei=j7OUXeT0F8jq-gTpi67wBw&q=thunberg+men&oq=thunberg+men&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..76173...0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.GufRb8E3yNA&ved=0ahUKEwik-PqG5P3kAhVItZ4KHemFC34Q4dUDCAo#spf=1570026463334

And our Federal election,

Quote
Federal leaders invoke Greta Thunberg to sell their own climate change plans
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/climate-change-federal-party-leaders-greta-thunberg-1.5295526
Canada's federal party candidates couldn't help but capitalize on the climate activist's emotional address to sell their own strategies.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 02, 2019, 11:54:02
What on earth does a yearbook instructor do?  Not a single serious lesson taught except possibly kindergarten french and even in that he had to dress-up.  I fail to see the connection between the Scottish kilt and the subject matter though.

Thats amazing. A year book instructor lol

So basically he screwed around all day, goofed off, was given the least amount of responsibility possible for a "staff member", acted more like a student and was known for playing dress up.



Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 02, 2019, 13:24:56
This isn't a picture of Gerald Butts Meeting with the upcoming Debate Moderator, Althia Raj from the Huffington post, is it?.

https://www.spencerfernando.com/2019/09/30/photo-gerald-butts-meets-with-upcoming-debate-moderator/

If it is, why would Gerald Butts want to meet with a debate moderator? Is Butts giving her the ol' Jody Wilson-Raybould treatment?

If that's her that doesn't seem like a conflict of interest one bit.


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 02, 2019, 13:42:19
I saw this a few days ago on FB. Even accounting for Mr Fernando's admitted bias, if this is true, it begs some very big questions.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 02, 2019, 13:48:57
This isn't a picture of Gerald Butts Meeting with the upcoming Debate Moderator, Althia Raj from the Huffington post, is it?.

https://www.spencerfernando.com/2019/09/30/photo-gerald-butts-meets-with-upcoming-debate-moderator/

If it is, why would Gerald Butts want to meet with a debate moderator? Is Butts giving her the ol' Jody Wilson-Raybould treatment?

If that's her that doesn't seem like a conflict of interest one bit.

Warren Kinsella's take on it.

http://warrenkinsella.com/2019/09/debates-debate-moderators-and-those-who-seek-to-influence-them/

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 02, 2019, 14:02:48
This isn't a picture of Gerald Butts Meeting with the upcoming Debate Moderator, Althia Raj from the Huffington post, is it?.


This really riles me right up!  How dare he!  What an ignorant SOB!  This proves the downfall of civilization.  If Mr Butts had any sense of decency or etiquette, he would immediately put down his mobile phone and converse with the individual across the table.  Oh, there's something inappropriate about the actual meeting?  Kinsella has the proper take on it.  It won't matter to most of the electorate and will only provide a ready excuse to supporters of Scheer if he tanks the debate.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 02, 2019, 14:37:18
Warren Kinsella's take on it.

http://warrenkinsella.com/2019/09/debates-debate-moderators-and-those-who-seek-to-influence-them/

In typical fashion, the first comment on the page:
"The source of the photo might be the most interesting part of this".

  If Mr Butts had any sense of decency or etiquette, he would immediately put down his mobile phone and converse with the individual across the table. 
some bad bevahior right there.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 02, 2019, 15:39:58
You are getting an insight into the next four (forty?) years, if the grits win. Their arrogance and indifference to the common Canadian will only manifest itself further, until we have no recourse but to submit or leave.

Trudeau has centralized power to the PMO and currently does whatever he wants. Without repercussions. He demonizes and fires anyone not in total lockstep with his mantra. He is untouchable. To give him a second mandate will only bolster his ego into thinking his vision as monarch, for a borderless welfare state, is his destiny.

This election is not about politics. It is about the future of Canada as a self sustaining democracy or a socialist hell like Brazil.

May, Bernier and Singh are a wasted vote. None can form a solid government. This is a vote between dictatorship on the grit side and democracy on the tory side. Vote accordingly.

 :2c:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on October 02, 2019, 18:52:31
So this popped up in my neighbourhood today. (Ottawa Centre)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 02, 2019, 19:42:05
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/opinion/sunday/trudeau-brownface-canada.html?fbclid=IwAR0-P-g5h-X7I0Apms8vA9bfMyrGYosWc0qIRH_FlWRqkiFXHY7TkVKgD1E

The Downfall of Canada’s Dreamy Boyfriend  - The New York Times

Quote
For Americans, Justin Trudeau’s undoing has been swift. For Canadians, it has been a long time coming.

By Melissa J. Gismondi

Ms. Gismondi is a journalist.

    Sept. 19, 2019

“He is getting so embarrassing, tbh.”

That was the text I woke up to this morning from a  friend who, like me, is a Canadian living in the United States. She was talking about Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and yesterday’s Time magazine bombshell report that he once wore brownface to an “Arabian Nights” party while a teacher at a private school in Vancouver in 2001. (Since Time’s story broke, other instances of Mr. Trudeau in blackface and brownface have surfaced, including a video.)

My friend was referring to how Mr. Trudeau is seen on the world stage, but especially in the United States, a country that had a tendency to pretend that Canada didn’t exist until Mr. Trudeau came along. And her text encapsulated a distinction I’ve noticed in how Americans have been receiving this story compared with Canadians. For Americans, Mr. Trudeau’s downfall from liberal media darling — remember Rolling Stone’s 2017 cover, “Why can’t he be our president?” — to disgraced politician has been swift. For Canadians, it has been a long time coming.

It all started back in 2015 when Mr. Trudeau won a surprising majority victory over the longtime Conservative prime minister, Stephen Harper. He cozied up to President Barack Obama, and the two young, charismatic world leaders had what the press affectionately called a “bromance.”

But south of the border, excitement over Mr. Trudeau didn’t really reach its zenith until November 2016. Before that, the prime minister, with his self-described feminism and his openness to Syrian refugees, had cast himself as Canada’s answer to the charismatic and cosmopolitan liberalism of the Obama years. Now, however, for American liberals, he was no longer cute kid brother but foil: Mr. Trudeau offered the perfect juxtaposition to the crassness of Donald Trump. Every detail, from his luxurious hair to his stylish socks, seemingly served to emphasize their differences.

Agree to disagree, or disagree better? We'll help you understand the sharpest arguments on the most pressing issues of the week, from new and familiar voices.

It was in this spirit that Rolling Stone put Mr. Trudeau on its cover and Vogue did a sultry photo shoot with him and his wife, Sophie Grégoire Trudeau. Talk of “Canadian exceptionalism” made the rounds — the idea that while the United States was imploding, Canada was a beacon of hope in a world gone mad. It was a sentiment echoed by pundits on both sides of the border: Adam Gopnik wrote an essay in The New Yorker reminding Americans, “We could have been Canada,” while Stephen Marche, writing in the Toronto-based publication The Walrus, called Canada “the last country on Earth to believe in multiculturalism.”

On the world stage, things were bright. But back home, the love affair with Mr. Trudeau, for those who ever had one, was short-lived.

Characteristically for politicians, it started with a failed promise. In early 2017, the Trudeau government announced it wouldn’t be pursuing electoral reform, despite making it a major part of the Liberal Party platform. (The reforms were part of a broader effort to make Canada’s parliamentary system proportionately representative.)

Then, in 2018, Mr. Trudeau made one of his most shocking moves: purchasing the Trans Mountain Pipeline, which runs from Alberta to coastal British Columbia, as part of an expansion project to increase capacity and add portions of new pipeline. Coming from a prime minister who said he was committed to green energy and tackling climate change, the move angered environmentalists and some Indigenous nations who oppose the pipeline, including those who had supported Mr. Trudeau.

Mr. Trudeau’s public image as a liberal feminist committed to gender equality also took a hit with the more recent affair involving the Montreal-based engineering firm SNC-Lavalin. The details of this evolving and very Canadian political scandal are difficult to explain. But in brief, it started with allegations that Mr. Trudeau’s office tried to interfere in then-Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould’s investigation into the firm. The important part, for Mr. Trudeau’s brand, is that following the resignation of Ms. Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott, a former Treasury Board president, from Mr. Trudeau’s cabinet, the prime minister kicked them out of his party. For many, this was a shocking way to treat two ?

In Canada, these developments, as well as a host of others, have changed how liberals see Mr. Trudeau. He is far less popular than he was in 2015, a leader despised on the right and often ridiculed on the left.

These stories, though, rarely made a stir in the United States. Occasionally, I’d see articles alluding to Mr. Trudeau’s troubles. Recently, Hasan Minhaj’s Netflix series “Patriot Act” featured an episode with Mr. Trudeau, in which he uncomfortably answers questions about the gap between his image and his policies. But overall, the American story of Mr. Trudeau as a “dream politician for the left,” as Mr. Minhaj put it, stuck. Until now, that is.

There are two ways this story will be understood, depending on which side of the border you’re on.

For many Americans, the story connects Canada to what’s often seen as a deeply ingrained American tradition: blackface. Down here, Trudeau’s brownface and blackface episodes are bursting the Canadian exceptionalism bubble. Slowly but surely Americans are learning we Canadians can be just like you: very, very racist.

For Canadians, though, the story is different. It also has bigger stakes, coming as it does in the middle of a federal election that has seen the Liberals and Conservatives neck-and-neck in the polls. It’s the latest in a series of scandals that have led many liberals to grow disillusioned and, yes, even flat out embarrassed by Mr. Trudeau.

Sorry, Americans. As Canadians living in the United States, we tried to tell you: That dude you thought was your dreamy boyfriend? He’s not all he’s cracked up to be. And like you, we’re wondering, as Jagmeet Singh, leader of Canada’s New Democratic Party and the first person of color to lead a major party, put it: “Who is the real Mr. Trudeau?”
.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 02, 2019, 21:20:46
Personally, I don't vote for politicians as role models. Mine are mostly in their 70's, or dead.

As someone who has always been a non-partisan voter, and after more than ten years of retirement, what I am more interested in is their answers to these questions,

https://mroo.org/adm/documents/Federal-Party-Positions-2015.pdf




Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 02, 2019, 21:41:08
And in this case (https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2019/09/30/rebel-without-a-media-accreditation.html?fbclid=IwAR0Gs1CVO6LADLFrkpOx3thzCqxa3wUpecPB5zWcloR3kPhlDqDYRxS9omw), a reporter for a right-leaning media outlet was refused access to a public event - can't tell if he was given a reason.

Mark my words, if this guy manages to win, he will be just as bad as Trump and Ford.  I hope the voters see through him.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 02, 2019, 22:10:41
Mark my words, if this guy manages to win, he will be just as bad as Trump and Ford.  I hope the voters see through him.

Ok, that is just batshit crazy talk.

We have PM currently who refuses to give a straight answer to any question that he is asked; acted unethically, if not outright broke the law on SNC Lavalin; appears to have only a cursory grasp of the issues facing Canada...and you are worried that Scheer might be as bad as Trump?

Are entirely immune to irony or are you just trolling?

Scheer is about as exciting as vanilla ice cream. Yet, that might just be enough, right now.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 02, 2019, 23:00:56
>just as bad as Trump

Yeah.  I'm really getting that vibe right now.

>and Ford

Which one?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 02, 2019, 23:36:19
>just as bad as Trump

Yeah.  I'm really getting that vibe right now.

>and Ford

Which one?

Probably Henry. But could be Gerald. Who knows?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 03, 2019, 06:49:33
Mark my words, if this guy manages to win, he will be just as bad as Trump and Ford.  I hope the voters see through him.

That’s silly nonsense. Trump is in a league all of his own. There is nothing quite like him among first world democracies, though similar populist firebrands with a fiery presentation and a less-than-deft hand on the wheel of state exist elsewhere such as Brazil and the Philippines.

Ford is garden variety unimpressive populist, but not particularly remarkable.

Scheer’s social views are a bit gross to me, I have little time for evangelicals who have shown a desire to restrict the rights of others due to their personal religious views. He’s an uninspiring leadership candidate, and against a better PM he wouldn’t stand a chance. But, if he is elected, I have no fear he’ll do anything too outlandish, hysterical fear mongering to the contrary.

Whoever wins this, we will as a consequence see Canada’s normal measured and incremental legislative drift in the direction of the victorious party, but there will be little to nothing earth shattering. We have a strong constitution, an independent judiciary that is quick to curb legislative overreach, and an upper house in our legislature that enjoys a reasonable amount of independence, and which has shown itself willing to rework legislation coming up from the House if it’s going to cause problems.

With a little luck, whichever government is elected will fail to achieve a majority, helping to further temper any inclinations to excess. Our checks and balances are pretty decent.

Wild cries about the peril our country is in and how it will be the end of Canada as we know it if x or y happens is just white noise.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 03, 2019, 08:27:43
Mark my words, if this guy manages to win, he will be just as bad as Trump and Ford.  I hope the voters see through him.
Trump?  Please - not even close to being in the same ballpark.

Ford?  I don't like some of what he's doing, and awaiting the bigger picture, but he's also backtracked a bit on some stuff that went a bit further than some would have liked.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 03, 2019, 09:10:58
I would reckon Scheer would appoint adult cabinet ministers rather than the gang JT appointed.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 03, 2019, 09:19:34
I would reckon Scheer would appoint adult cabinet ministers rather than the gang JT appointed.
The odds may improve, but never any guarantees of all cabinet ministers being great (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/timeline-of-events-fantino-s-troubled-tenure-at-veterans-affairs-1.2173443), no matter what colour the team jerseys, right?   ;)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 03, 2019, 09:29:05
I would reckon Scheer would appoint adult cabinet ministers rather than the gang JT appointed.

That’s an interesting take. Who out of the current cabinet do you think fails the ‘adult’ test? By and large I don’t think the cabinet has been much of the problem here, and there are some individuals with some compelling experience in a few roles.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 03, 2019, 10:06:16
The odds may improve, but never any guarantees of all cabinet ministers being great (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/timeline-of-events-fantino-s-troubled-tenure-at-veterans-affairs-1.2173443), no matter what colour the team jerseys, right?   ;)

When it comes to politicians, it seems some can be remarkably tolerant - if the colour of the team jersey is correct.  :)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: YZT580 on October 03, 2019, 10:23:04
I am more hopeful that a change in party will get us away from a very dangerous affiliation with China. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 03, 2019, 10:27:56
Trudeau has centralized power to the PMO and currently does whatever he wants. Without repercussions. He demonizes and fires anyone not in total lockstep with his mantra. He is untouchable. To give him a second mandate will only bolster his ego....
Yep, those are pretty terrible attributes for any elected leader.  Who could support such an abysmal human being?  :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Infanteer on October 03, 2019, 11:10:25
Yep, those are pretty terrible attributes for any elected leader.  Who could support such an abysmal human being?  :pop:

Hey, I see what you did there....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: QV on October 03, 2019, 12:32:32
Yep, those are pretty terrible attributes for any elected leader.  Who could support such an abysmal human being?  :pop:

Nice reach.  Since we are comparing, at least Mueller & Co. were allowed to finish and AG William Barr and US Attorney John Durham are on their way to getting to the bottom of things, meanwhile JWR was obstructed then fired and the RCMP took an election break.     

There are a lot of embarrassing things for both countries, but for very different reasons.   


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 12:46:47
Nice reach.  Since we are comparing, at least Mueller & Co. were allowed to finish and AG William Barr and US Attorney John Durham are on their way to getting to the bottom of things, meanwhile JWR was obstructed then fired and the RCMP took an election break.     

There are a lot of embarrassing things for both countries, but for very different reasons.

Nah, he hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 13:04:49
So, not sure if anyone watched last night's debate.

The clear winner was the Bloc leader.  He handled everything quite well and even got some good punches in on Scheer (he was weak on a lot of things but the language barrier may have been a factor)and Trudeau.  I can see why he went after Scheer especially as I figure he is competing for rural Quebec votes.    I think the return of the Bloc is a an interesting turn I would not have predicted.

Scheer was gangbanged by everyone but that could mean one of two things or both. 

1. There may already be a deal hatched between the LPC and the NDP if a minority situation happens.

2. Scheer is starting to be perceived as a front runner

I have been watching the poll tracker the last week and we can see the LPC dipping (although not by huge amounts) and the CPC was rising by the same increments the LPC was dropping.  Note the Bloc have made significant gains and apparently those gains are where they count towards more seats.

Today though we still see the LPC down by their usual amount but the CPC took a bit of a sharper drop 0.3 as opposed to the steady 0.1 gains they were making. 

Still statistically unimportant in the overall picture but there was a trend upward for the CPC.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

I'll be curious to see how the debate and this latest two plane debacle will play out.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Mister Donut on October 03, 2019, 13:10:22
I'm usually apolitical, but I'll be voting for the Cons primarily for two reasons:

The filthy communists want to take my guns, and they gave $10 mil to Khadr. 

Not to mention the Blackface thing, the SNC Lavalin scandal, and importing hundreds, if not thousands of un-vetted terrorists.

I guess there are more than two reasons.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 03, 2019, 13:16:07
and importing hundreds, if not thousands of un-vetted terrorists.

What in the hell are you going on about?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 03, 2019, 13:17:24
I would rather the party leaders focus on debating substantive policy issues, but I have to admit that the "camping gear and costumes" quip about Trudeau's second plane is pretty funny.

I would tend to agree with your assessment of Scheer and the Conservatives now being seen as a threat. This puts the Liberals in a bind as they are fighting a two front war. Pivot too far left and they lose the blue liberals to the conservatives. Pivot too far right and the NDP/ Greens eat their lunch- although the liberals may have already calculated they can make deal with one or both in a minority situation to keep them in power.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 13:22:37
I'm usually apolitical, but I'll be voting for the Cons primarily for two reasons:

The filthy communists want to take my guns, and they gave $10 mil to Khadr. 

Not to mention the Blackface thing, the SNC Lavalin scandal, and importing hundreds, if not thousands of un-vetted terrorists.

I guess there are more than two reasons.

Glad you are voting. 

Not sure I agree with all of your reasons.  Anyone voting against the LPC based on Trudeau's hypocrisy and less than honest way of doing things is well within reason.  Although not a voting factor for me, I sympathise with gun owners and can see why they would vote CPC.  As far as the Khadr thing is concerned, it was a problem that predated the current government and they got stuck with it.  I won't rehash that as we have quite a thread on that.    Not sure what you mean about your last thing about importing terrorists.

For me it is likely going to boil down to who I want in a minority situation and quite likely which MP I prefer in my riding.  Slim pickings                                       
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 03, 2019, 13:28:24
>Scheer was gangbanged

Perhaps you meant "ganged-up upon"?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 03, 2019, 13:30:01

The filthy communists want to take my guns, . . .

Good to see that someone has read the platform of parties fielding candidates.

https://votecommunist.com/peoples-agenda-election-platform/
Quote
•Ban the sale and possession of hand guns and military assault weapons.

I'll certainly won't be voting for a candidate from the CPC (Communist Party of Canada), but that was highly unlikely anyway since they don't have anyone running in my riding.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 03, 2019, 13:40:06
Quote from: Remius
Although not a voting factor for me, I sympathise with gun owners and can see why they would vote CPC.                                       

Appreciate that.

Even as a non-gun owner (or perhaps non-factor for you) the absurdity of what Trudeau is doing with firearms in order to buy votes should factor in to your decision making. Gun owners are low hanging fruit. There are no stats anywhere in Canada that support vilifying AR15s when you take into account our laws in order to obtain them and the frequency in which they're used in murders.

You should see that behavior as a redflag.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 13:52:23
I would rather the party leaders focus on debating substantive policy issues, but I have to admit that the "camping gear and costumes" quip about Trudeau's second plane is pretty funny.

I would tend to agree with your assessment of Scheer and the Conservatives now being seen as a threat. This puts the Liberals in a bind as they are fighting a two front war. Pivot too far left and they lose the blue liberals to the conservatives. Pivot too far right and the NDP/ Greens eat their lunch- although the liberals may have already calculated they can make deal with one or both in a minority situation to keep them in power.

Yeah, you would think that the incumbent would be the target.   

About arguing the policy issues, it would seem that the LPC and CPC platform is very similar with a few exceptions.  2 sides of the same coin.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 13:53:23
>Scheer was gangbanged

Perhaps you meant "ganged-up upon"?

Yes.  I should have perhaps used better wording... :facepalm:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 14:00:30
Appreciate that.

Even as a non-gun owner (or perhaps non-factor for you) the absurdity of what Trudeau is doing with firearms in order to buy votes should factor in to your decision making. Gun owners are low hanging fruit. There are no stats anywhere in Canada that support vilifying AR15s when you take into account our laws in order to obtain them and the frequency in which they're used in murders.

You should see that behavior as a redflag.

I see red flags on all sides.  All parties are trying to buy votes.  Like I said, slim pickings.  Trudeau's behaviour on plenty of things have raised many a red flag.  In fact his stance on guns is trivial compared to his other issues.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 03, 2019, 14:12:10
Although not a voting factor for me, I sympathise with gun owners and can see why they would vote CPC. 

I'm a gun owner, because I've always enjoyed hunting. But, I'm not obsessed with guns.

Most of my political interest has been at the municipal level, which thank-fully, is non-partisan.

Our union and pensioners association are pretty helpful with information for active and retired members to make informed decisions to support the politicians who support us.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 03, 2019, 17:06:03
Gun control isn't really a safety and health issue.  It's a culture war.  You can map that out easily enough by looking at whom the "fixes" are directed.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 03, 2019, 17:11:10
Trudeau lost me on Electoral Reform, Ethics breaches (how many now ?), Khdar, SNC Lavalin, the VAdm Norman Affair, I am asking for more than he can give; and to top it all off, now he wants to come after my guns. 

Its almost like he took my vote last time and then did everything he could to make sure I wouldn't vote for his party ever again.  It wasn't that personal I know ;)

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 03, 2019, 17:48:37
Trudeau's behaviour on plenty of things have raised many a red flag.  In fact his stance on guns is trivial compared to his other issues.
His stance on guns may be trivial but his actions are a hell of a lot more serious.

Banning personal property from 99.9% law abiding citizens based on emotion and fear mongering to buy votes while costing Canadians at least $600 million with no empirical evidence. That's ****ed up.  But a lot of Canadians don't seem to care because it doesn't directly effect them. Maybe carbon emitting SUVs will be next because you don't need an SUV to drive to work.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 18:10:17
This is just breaking.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/andrew-scheer-has-dual-canadian-u-s-citizenship-party-confirms-1.4623024

I don’t think it’s a big deal at the end of the day but how did no one know about this until now?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 03, 2019, 18:18:05
This is just breaking.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/andrew-scheer-has-dual-canadian-u-s-citizenship-party-confirms-1.4623024

I don’t think it’s a big deal at the end of the day but how did no one know about this until now?

Looks like the US embassy knew in August.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Mister Donut on October 03, 2019, 18:20:12
What in the hell are you going on about?

Have a few friends that work for IRCC and CBSA......and many of the decisions being rendered there and even up to the IRB are being fettered by the the current government to buy votes.

For those not familiar with the decision making process in these departments, approvals are far easier to write up than refusals.  When management increase quotas required of the officer, approvals naturally increase, and the level of scrutiny per file decreases significantly.  Complex files are suddenly processed with the same level of attention as straight-forward cases.

And this is not just at IRCC.  The same thing happens at the IRB level.  A IRB member was dismissed for not approving enough cases, not sure if they ever hired him back after making a stink about it....Uni prof at U of T I think.

Security and background checks?  They're based on what the applicant says on their Schedule A.  They literally take their word for it when it comes to their history.  The bad guys that are dumb enough to be honest might get screened out, but beyond that, there isn't enough time and staff to conduct proper investigations on an applicant's background.  Terrorists was a bit general, I apologize for that, but there are a lot of people that should not be here (criminals, pedofiles, rapists - fuk, surprising a lot of the last two), and it's you'd be surprised how costly and difficult it is to get them out once they're here.

The cost to keep these $hit-rats alive and comfortable for a year before their hearing is on us, the tax payers. 

Dumb applicants have been known to confess to the reviewing officer that the only reason they made a claim was because their parent's can no longer afford to send them to school in Canada and pay for their MSP, but most are coached by immigration consultants and lawyers for a significant fee. 

If you want to scratch the surface, stand outside of an IRCC building and see the line up of ref claimants every morning.  Most are well dressed, with their iPhone Xs, LV, Coach or Gucci bags waiting to make a ref claim.  Not all of them are simply trying get out of paying the International Fee for schooling....some claimants have minor crim, to serious crim to being RBGs (really bad guys). 

One particular friend told me he worked in the Ref unit for 6 months, seeing maybe 3 families a day.  He didn't render the ultimate decision on whether the applicants qualified for protection, but rather made recommendations to the IRB.
 In those 6 months, he only had one family he actually believed - a white family from South Africa.  He was of the opinion that the rest of his claimants lacked credibility, and it was demoralizing for him to watch the IRB approve applications with minimal evidence and weak reasons for their approvals.  This officer is not white, so it's not a racial thing, but he thought the white family from SA would probably get fukked when the finally got to the IRB.

Maybe my friends are just jaded, but they're from different POEs and various inland offices, so it probably isn't a coincidence that there's a common theme when it comes to who's being allowed into the country.  And it's not just ref claimants, we're talking all lines of business.





Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 19:01:22
Looks like the US embassy knew in August.

Just watching his media scrum...he looks uncomfortable with the line of questioning about it.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 03, 2019, 19:03:48
This is just breaking.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/andrew-scheer-has-dual-canadian-u-s-citizenship-party-confirms-1.4623024

I don’t think it’s a big deal at the end of the day but how did no one know about this until now?

So? Elizabeth May was born in the USA. Half the Trudeau cabinet was born outside of Canada. Trudeau himself is half cuban (that was a joke...).

I thought Canada embraced immigration and multiculturalism?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 03, 2019, 19:09:51
Maybe carbon emitting SUVs will be next because you don't need an SUV to drive to work.

Guess I was fortunate being able to walk to work. Took the car when it needed a wash.

I thought Canada embraced immigration and multiculturalism?

According to the quoted article, it depends,

Quote
The Conservatives have been critical of other leaders’ citizenship status in the past, however.

Scheer himself questioned former Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean’s French citizenship in an August 2005 blog post, in which he said he has a “few questions” about her appointment: “Does it bother you that she is a dual citizen (France and Canada)? Would it bother you if instead of French citizenship, she held U.S. citizenship?”

Jean renounced her French citizenship before taking office in September 2005.

In 2015, then-Conservative Leader Stephen harper blasted then-NDP leader Thomas Mulcair for holding onto his dual French citizenship.

“I’m very clear. I’m a Canadian and only a Canadian,” he said at the time.

Harper’s team also blasted then-Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff in 2011 for a perceived lack of loyalty to Canada. Ignatieff spent 34 years working in the United States before becoming the head of the Liberals, which spurred Conservative attack ads with the slogan “Michael Ignatieff: Just visiting.”
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 19:11:19
So? Elizabeth May was born in the USA. Half the Trudeau cabinet was born outside of Canada. Trudeau himself is half cuban (that was a joke...).

I thought Canada embraced immigration and multiculturalism?

Ah yes.  The CPC has never had an issue with dual citizens?  Like Michael Jean or Stephane Dion?  His citizenship status isn’t the issue.  But it sure looks like he was hiding it. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 03, 2019, 19:40:09
Trudeau himself is half cuban (that was a joke...).
In case anyone takes the joke seriously,
Quote
Is Justin Trudeau Fidel Castro’s Love Child?
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/justin-trudeau-is-fidel-castros-love-child/
Claims that Fidel Castro and Margaret Trudeau had an affair that produced the current Canadian prime minister are impossible on both biological and historical grounds.



Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 03, 2019, 19:54:44
Looks like the US embassy knew in August.

So he took the step to relinquish US citizenship (or a step that could make public the knowledge of his dual citizenship) only two years and two months after becoming Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, or only eight years after becoming Speaker of the House of Commons. 

I wonder if he has been filing his US tax returns all these years; the IRS takes a dim view of non-resident citizens who don't file.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 20:04:45
So he took the step to relinquish US citizenship (or a step that could make public the knowledge of his dual citizenship) only two years and two months after becoming Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, or only eight years after becoming Speaker of the House of Commons. 

I wonder if he has been filing his US tax returns all these years; the IRS takes a dim view of non-resident citizens who don't file.

Apparently he has. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 03, 2019, 20:23:20
So? Elizabeth May was born in the USA. Half the Trudeau cabinet was born outside of Canada. Trudeau himself is half cuban (that was a joke...).

I thought Canada embraced immigration and multiculturalism?

I don’t think the issue is dual citizenship; the issue is blatant hypocrisy.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 03, 2019, 20:43:52
I don’t think the issue is dual citizenship; the issue is blatant hypocrisy.

We're the Conservatives under Scheers time as boss attacking others for having dual citizenship? (honest question)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 03, 2019, 20:51:01
We're the Conservatives under Scheers time as boss attacking others for having dual citizenship? (honest question)

Not sure if it’s that recent, but Scheer raised concerns over Michaelle Jean’s appointment as GG due to French dual citizenship. He even literally said ‘What if it was American?’

Some of the hypocrisy is by virtue of his leadership of a party that has launched off on this issue, and his disinclination to repudiate it while being basically in the exact same beaten zone himself.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 03, 2019, 21:06:25
Then it's a surely a dumb *** move by him. Far as I can see he was playing it safe waiting until it looked like he had a chance of winning before giving it up.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 03, 2019, 21:10:09
Then it's a surely a dumb *** move by him. Far as I can see he was playing it safe waiting until it looked like he had a chance of winning before giving it up.

That’s how I read it too. He waited til August to begin renouncing citizenship.

I mean, personally, I don’t really care. But I can read the optics of it.

As I commented earlier on other means, this election is like picking your favourite genital wart.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 03, 2019, 21:12:49
Not sure if it’s that recent, but Scheer raised concerns over Michaelle Jean’s appointment as GG due to French dual citizenship. He even literally said ‘What if it was American?’

Some of the hypocrisy is by virtue of his leadership of a party that has launched off on this issue, and his disinclination to repudiate it while being basically in the exact same beaten zone himself.

Granted. So now we have all the party leaders caught in some degree of hypocritical positioning.

So the question becomes: which hypocrisy can you as a voter live with?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 21:31:01
Granted. So now we have all the party leaders caught in some degree of hypocritical positioning.

So the question becomes: which hypocrisy can you as a voter live with?

Or do we look at the actual policies and accept that our politicians are hypocrites?

I already knew like many that Trudeau was a hypocrite.  But until recently I hadn’t pegged Scheer in that light. 

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 03, 2019, 21:32:53
Always assume hypocrisy is present.  Always assume some chickenshit misdeeds occurred during youth.  Then you can skip the throw-crap-and-see-what-sticks idiot fest and move on immediately to issues of substance.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 03, 2019, 21:40:47
Granted. So now we have all the party leaders caught in some degree of hypocritical positioning.

So the question becomes: which hypocrisy can you as a voter live with?

I vote the platform primarily. A leader is a variable superimposed on that. Yes, a leader can rule themselves (and thus the party) our for me; the leader cannot seal the deal if I think their party sucks.

I don’t have a party affiliation, and I harbour suspicion towards those who invariably can only vote one way. Every party and every leader is capable of sucking so profoundly that any decent person should not consider voting for them. Blind loyalty in the face of this troubles me.

This election just flat out sucks.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 21:45:01

This election just flat out sucks.

Mountain Dew or the Crab Juice...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 03, 2019, 21:55:38
https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/randall-denley-trudeaus-desperate-scheer-is-just-like-ford-strategy-is-laughably-off-base?fbclid=IwAR1tLKtpsTPar2m6ytzT3NYV4k5d2a9iyS2mIp46HF1NQ8HT65FR1qSYJio


Randall Denley: Trudeau's desperate Scheer-is-just-like-Ford strategy is laughable

Quote
As much as Trudeau might like people to believe it, it would be tough to find two Conservative politicians more different
Federal Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has a clear message for Ontarians: Don’t vote for Conservative Andrew Scheer because that would be “doubling down’ on Ontario Premier Doug Ford. Ford and Scheer, you see, are so similar that it’s difficult to tell them apart.

As much as Trudeau might like people to believe that, it would be tough to find two Conservative politicians more different than Scheer and Ford. Even during an election campaign, when truth typically takes a holiday, the Scheer-is-just-like-Ford argument is laughably off base. It has novelty value, though. It’s not every day that you see a prime minister build his re-election campaign around attacking a premier’s record.

Ford and Scheer come from quite different backgrounds, and that has shaped their values and the way they operate. Scheer grew up in a thrifty, middle-class family in Ottawa with parents who were cautious and conservative. Ford was raised in Etobicoke, where his father was owner of a successful business and later, an MPP.

Ford has a slim political resume, while Scheer has been involved in politics most of his adult life. Ford served a single term on Toronto city council and spent years around the fringes of the Ontario PC party, but was never a real player until his surprising leadership victory. Even then, he came into the job as an outsider who was not supported by most of the caucus. His victory was akin to a hostile takeover and Ford was a relative political amateur when he became premier.

Scheer, by contrast, defines political professional, for better or worse. First elected at the age of 25, he has been an MP for 15 years and worked in political offices before that. Scheer has used that time to build alliances within the party. Like Ford, Scheer won a narrow leadership victory but it wasn’t a surprise to those had followed his career.

Ford is a brash, loud kind of guy, given to the sweeping statement and the bold claim. The premier likes a good fight, although, to his credit, he has resisted the temptation to respond to Trudeau’s constant jabs. Scheer is cautious and incremental. He’s much more like former prime minister Stephen Harper than he is like Ford.
John Langs is going big for the Oct. 21 federal election by carving, into the field of his Burford-area farm, a message that takes a shot at both Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer and Ontario Premier Doug Ford. Photo by Mike Southam

Andrew Scheer is small-c conservative to the bone. He believes in balanced budgets and smaller government. His Catholic faith informs his personal moral views. He is a policy wonk who has long been intellectually engaged with conservative ideas. Doug Ford likes balanced budgets and smaller government too, but Ford is a pragmatic populist, not an ideologically driven conservative, and certainly not a social conservative.

Sources close to both men say they have completely different operating styles. Ford will listen to both sides of an argument, then make a decision based on gut instinct. Scheer consults widely and invites others to challenge his view. He’s far less quick to make up his mind. While Ford is content to delegate most of the detailed work to cabinet ministers, Scheer is much more engaged with every facet of his party’s policies.

As people and political leaders, Scheer and Ford clearly don’t have a lot in common, nor have they ever worked together. Both have, however, vowed to chip away at inherited Liberal deficits, balancing their respective budgets in five years.  Ford’s version of austerity involves record provincial spending. This reckless, maniacal approach to government is what sets Trudeau off on his rant about cuts.

Despite having no direct personal experience with cutting anything, Trudeau knows it must be wrong, and he’s putting your money where his mouth is. Four years ago, he said that balancing the budget was still a thing, although clearly not a priority. Now, that kind of thinking is so 2015. He has promised deficits totalling $92 billion over four years. Deficits are good, the bigger the better. Why don’t guys like Ford and Scheer get that?

Trudeau may well be genuinely perplexed by leaders who want to live within the public’s means. Most of the time, spewing borrowed money at voters is good politics. It’s bad government, but that’s a problem for another day.

Trudeau’s Ontario strategy is high-risk. He is betting everything that people in the province hate Ford so much that they will vote for a party that will drown them in debt, exactly what they just rejected provincially last June. To win that bet, Trudeau has to convince Ontarians that Scheer and Ford are essentially the same guy. Perhaps it doesn’t matter, but that’s not even close to true.

The idea that Ontario is pissed off at Ford, I agree, is ludicrous. Where trudeau ever got that idea is beyond me.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 03, 2019, 21:59:48
The CPC has never had an issue with dual citizens?  Like Michael Jean or Stephane Dion?
And Tom Mulcair (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/thomas-mulcair-defends-dual-citizenship-1.1184291), which Team Blue wasn't happy with (https://o.canada.com/news/ndp-leadership-harper-weighs-in-on-mulcairs-dual-citizenship), leading to the quote, "I’m a Canadian and only a Canadian".

I have nothing against the dual citizenship, but doing something about it only months before an election does have some optical issues.
... you can skip the throw-crap-and-see-what-sticks idiot fest and move on immediately to issues of substance.
Sadly, guess which leads to better memes, zingers and gotcha's?  :not-again:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Rifleman62 on October 03, 2019, 22:08:37
Who knew the LPC was the party of Birthers?

Reports of Trudeau using two aircraft on his re-election tour, as he did in 2015. Report also of flying 13 minutes from to Montréal-Mirabel International Airport/Montréal–Pierre Elliott Trudeau Airport.

Carbon credits were purchased though. :rofl:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 03, 2019, 22:09:23
I vote the platform primarily. A leader is a variable superimposed on that. Yes, a leader can rule themselves (and thus the party) our for me; the leader cannot seal the deal if I think their party sucks.

I don’t have a party affiliation, and I harbour suspicion towards those who invariably can only vote one way. Every party and every leader is capable of sucking so profoundly that any decent person should not consider voting for them. Blind loyalty in the face of this troubles me.

This election just flat out sucks.


Does that then just leave Mad Max who, although holding positions many find distasteful, as the only federal leader who has been at least consistent in his messaging?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 03, 2019, 22:36:35


Does that then just leave Mad Max who, although holding positions many find distasteful, as the only federal leader who has been at least consistent in his messaging?

No, see my comment about a leader and party ‘sucking so profoundly’.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 22:38:12
Who knew the LPC was the party of Birthers?

Reports of Trudeau using two aircraft on his re-election tour, as he did in 2015. Report also of flying 13 minutes from to Montréal-Mirabel International Airport/Montréal–Pierre Elliott Trudeau Airport.

Carbon credits were purchased though.

Carbon credits are a joke.  They do nothing to reduce emissions.  Heard a good description on talk radio. 

They played a sound bite of two guys trying to sell cheating credits.  So you cheat on your wife, you can pay a small amount to these guys who will reinvest it in faithful couples to offset what you did. People’s reactions to this plan was funny until they were told that this is essentially what carbon offsets are.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on October 03, 2019, 23:17:47
Does that then just leave Mad Max who, although holding positions many find distasteful, as the only federal leader who has been at least consistent in his messaging?

In 2008 Mad Max left a secret dossier at his girlfriend's place. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/bernier-quits-cabinet-post-over-security-breach-1.723124)  I'm surprised that hasn't been dredged up by the Crips or Bloods yet.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 03, 2019, 23:20:33
In case anyone is wondering where Doug has been during all of this,

Quote
National Post

Exclusive poll reveals 'Doug Ford factor' a big problem for Scheer's Conservatives in Ontario
https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/exclusive-poll-reveals-doug-ford-factor-a-big-problem-for-scheers-conservatives-in-ontario
The poll shows half of Ontario's population sees their federal vote being swayed — mostly away from the federal Tories — by the Ford government’s performance

The “Doug Ford factor” that some federal Conservatives worried would hurt their chances in Ontario this election appears to be very real, and especially significant, suggests a new survey conducted in partnership between the Angus Reid Institute and Postmedia.




Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 03, 2019, 23:36:44
In case anyone is wondering where Doug has been during all of this,

Who needs Ford when you can bring in another Premier who is likely less of a liability.

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/jason-kenney-headed-to-ontario-to-campaign-for-andrew-scheer-in-crucial-toronto-area-ridings
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 04, 2019, 08:42:30
Who knew the LPC was the party of Birthers?
:rofl:  If you mean the dual-citizenship thing, I'd be happy to see any material you've seen showing anyone in the Liberal Party or supporting it asking to see Scheer's birth certificate, or questioning where he was born as a way to say he shouldn't even be an MP or PM.
In 2008 Mad Max left a secret dossier at his girlfriend's place. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/bernier-quits-cabinet-post-over-security-breach-1.723124)  I'm surprised that hasn't been dredged up by the Crips or Bloods yet.
If Team Blue or Team Red start seeing him as a credible threat as the big day gets closer, wait for it ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 04, 2019, 09:58:43
Carbon credits are a joke.  They do nothing to reduce emissions.  Heard a good description on talk radio. 

They played a sound bite of two guys trying to sell cheating credits.  So you cheat on your wife, you can pay a small amount to these guys who will reinvest it in faithful couples to offset what you did. People’s reactions to this plan was funny until they were told that this is essentially what carbon offsets are.

A little bit of gold, hiding out in the slug-fest.   I may have to use this one of these days...full disclosure, I don't tick "use more of my Aeroplane points to offset carbon use" when I redeem my travel points.

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 04, 2019, 10:30:41
Carbon credits are the modern incarnation of indulgences that were, in medieval times, paid to the Catholic Church by the wealthy in order to atone for sinning.

Of course, environmentalist are notoriously immune to irony....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 04, 2019, 10:33:04
Interesting Tweet from Bob Rae, regarding Sheer's citizenship  (:panic:)

Quote
Bob Rae
@BobRae48

Joking aside, many people have dual citizenship, it is part and parcel of being a global country in an interconnected world.  There is an irony given the attacks against Dion and Mulcair, but no one should be challenging Mr Scheer’s loyalty to Canada.
5:55 PM · Oct 3, 2019
Disclosure:  I'm eligible for dual citizenship, having an American father;  I've never bothered, although my brother has two passports.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 04, 2019, 22:15:50
Carbon credits are the modern incarnation of indulgences that were, in medieval times, paid to the Catholic Church by the wealthy in order to atone for sinning.

Of course, environmentalist are notoriously immune to irony....

I was thinking the same thing ... you beat me to it.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 04, 2019, 22:37:05
Hope they don't have a draft,

Quote
Oct 04, 2019

Andrew Scheer is registered for selective service — the U.S. agency that runs the military draft
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/andrew-scheer-draft-us-selective-service-1.5309002
If [Scheer] does win the election, he's still going to be an American citizen. It takes months.
- U.S.-based immigration lawyer Len Saunders
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on October 04, 2019, 22:43:27
Hope they don't have a draft,

Can't see a draft coming anytime soon. I think Scheer is pretty safe.


What a gong show.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 04, 2019, 23:05:04
Ouch. CPC had to turf their candidate in Burnaby, BC today over some pretty horrendously homophobic comments made 7 or 8 years ago.

This is a swing riding that 338canada has running pretty much neck and neck between CPC and LPC. Coincidentally it’s the epicentre of the Trans Mountain Expansion protests.

On the one hand I would have had a real problem had they not dropped her as a candidate based on her conduct, but on the other hand this gives the Libs a riding that could have gone either way... Serious vetting fail.


https://election.ctvnews.ca/b-c-candidate-no-longer-with-conservatives-after-homophobic-comments-resurface-1.4625042
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 04, 2019, 23:15:48
Ouch. CPC had to turf their candidate in Burnaby, BC today over some pretty horrendously homophobic comments made 7 or 8 years ago.

This is a swing riding that 338canada has running pretty much neck and neck between CPC and LPC. Coincidentally it’s the epicentre of the Trans Mountain Expansion protests.

On the one hand I would have had a real problem had they not dropped her as a candidate based on her conduct, but on the other hand this gives the Libs a riding that could have gone either way... Serious vetting fail.


https://election.ctvnews.ca/b-c-candidate-no-longer-with-conservatives-after-homophobic-comments-resurface-1.4625042

Not sure they had much of a choice in dropping her.  Good on them for doing it swiftly.

This has been a bad week for the CPC.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 04, 2019, 23:34:51
Carbon credits are the modern incarnation of indulgences that were, in medieval times, paid to the Catholic Church by the wealthy in order to atone for sinning.

Of course, environmentalist are notoriously immune to irony....

I'm a podcast addict and Dan Carlin had a podcast on the Anabaptists, the Roman Catholic church and how the two sides came to blows in Muenster in 1536.

It did not end well for the Anabaptists.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 05, 2019, 02:00:44
So does that mean that the Liberals have to dump this guy, or is all forgiven now that he's apologized?

https://tinyurl.com/y5uu6nmh
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 05, 2019, 03:17:57
They are keeping him. Sins of the disciples don't count, because colour of jersey trumps these things ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 05, 2019, 08:24:31
So does that mean that the Liberals have to dump this guy, or is all forgiven now that he's apologized?

https://tinyurl.com/y5uu6nmh

Scheer created a precedent by saying as long as his people apologized for past posts and comments he was ok keeping them. Expect the liberals to use that.

Does anyone believe that guy has changed since 2013?  I don’t. Not for a second.  If he gets elected expect to hear about this guy and something stupid he says or does.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 05, 2019, 12:56:34
>Scheer created a precedent by saying as long as his people apologized for past posts and comments he was ok keeping them. Expect the liberals to use that.

Good.  Let's forgive the past and hold people accountable for their behaviour in the present.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 05, 2019, 13:17:29
>Scheer created a precedent by saying as long as his people apologized for past posts and comments he was ok keeping them. Expect the liberals to use that.

Good.  Let's forgive the past and hold people accountable for their behaviour in the present.

I suppose it depends on whether it’s reasonable to surmise that someone’s current beliefs and attitudes no longer mirror what they used to show. For instance in the case of the erstwhile CPC candidate, I would need to be really convinced that someone in presumably their 40s has changed and has evolved past profound and disgusting homophobic views. I very much doubt they have. At best she might learn to keep quiet about it.

I’m torn on the LPC candidate out east. He said a bunch of dumb stuff for sure. He has also immediately apologized and taken responsibility at least somewhat, for what that’s worth. I guess fairness suggests they should consider dropping him, though as the social media posts aren’t nearly as grave and are also fairly dated now, I’d be open to hearing about what he’s been like in the past five years.

What is very clear is that basically nobody who has lived in the shacks on base in the age of social media has a future in politics.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 05, 2019, 13:31:31
This election is hilariously petty in a lame sort of Canadian way.

It's as if Paul Gross took the script of Passchendaele and Hyena Road and used it to create Canada's very own made for CBC version of the Manchurian Candidate.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 05, 2019, 13:33:25
This election is hilariously petty in a lame sort of Canadian way.

It's as if Paul Gross took the script of Passchendaele and Hyena Road and used it to create Canada's very own made for CBC version of the Manchurian Candidate.

So at what point, completely unnecessary to the story, do Andrew Scheer and Catherine McKenna make out?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 05, 2019, 13:37:21
So at what point, completely unnecessary to the story, do Andrew Scheer and Catherine McKenna make out?

We totally could have used that film as an Operation Honour teaching resource  :rofl:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 05, 2019, 14:12:30
We totally could have used that film as an Operation Honour teaching resource  :rofl:

Shall be known as 'The Seediest Step of Battle Procedure', right before deploying on ops.... :)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on October 05, 2019, 15:35:38
We totally could have used that film as an Operation Honour teaching resource  :rofl:
You made me just realize that there was a prebattle sex scene in both films!!😂
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 05, 2019, 16:20:17
>I suppose it depends on whether it’s reasonable to surmise that someone’s current beliefs and attitudes no longer mirror what they used to show.

It is, unless he's manifestly still exhibiting the same behaviour or looks an awful lot like someone just hiding it.  Pretty much every old acquaintance I meet up with after absences covering a few years is not quite the same person.  5 years after high school grad, people had matured.  5 years after uni grad, people had matured more.  5 or 10 years into their post-education life, people had matured even more.  Etc. Etc.  Now, I suppose heading out of middle age, people are supposed to become more curmudgeonly and narrow-minded, but I'm not there yet so can't say whether that's true.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 05, 2019, 16:30:41
Scheer created a precedent by saying as long as his people apologized for past posts and comments he was ok keeping them.

That's true, but I would argue that some transgressions defy absolution.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 05, 2019, 17:16:57
So Eric Grenier’s poll tracker has the LPC ahead for the first time since Feb.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

Still tight.  But if Andrew Scheer has another bad debate or week we could see the LPC increase the gap.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 05, 2019, 17:25:42
To add to my post about the LPC leading in the polls, Don Martin expresses exactly what I’m feeling about Scheer.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/don-martin-suddenly-scheer-is-on-trial-by-fire-1.4624576
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 05, 2019, 17:36:40
At least, to his credit, Scheer genuinely looks like his conscience is bothering him over this.

Trudeau? Not so much remorse in that one....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 05, 2019, 17:58:13
The NDP has a similar problem.

I suppose after the last election the strong leadership contenders looked at the LPC, figured it was in for at least two terms, and decided not to audition for the role of caretaker - let someone else take that bullet.  Then it turns out Trudeau and the LPC are vulnerable after one term.  Oops.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 05, 2019, 18:05:29
The NDP has a similar problem.

I suppose after the last election the strong leadership contenders looked at the LPC, figured it was in for at least two terms, and decided not to audition for the role of caretaker - let someone else take that bullet.  Then it turns out Trudeau and the LPC are vulnerable after one term.  Oops.

For sure. Though I find Singh to actually be one of the better performers of this campaign.  But I guess expectations were set low.  The problem is he waited too long to show that side of himself. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 05, 2019, 18:34:24
To add to my post about the LPC leading in the polls, Don Martin expresses exactly what I’m feeling about Scheer.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/don-martin-suddenly-scheer-is-on-trial-by-fire-1.4624576

At this point I just hope they can be held to a minority. Let the CPC take the winter to do some serious introspection and for Scheer to exit the leadership in an orderly manner, and then let Raitt, Ambrose, or MacKay take over, roll up their sleeves and get working on cleanup. Hopefully some time in 2022 or so an opportune time arrives to trigger an election.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 05, 2019, 21:23:58
At this point I just hope they can be held to a minority. Let the CPC take the winter to do some serious introspection and for Scheer to exit the leadership in an orderly manner, and then let Raitt, Ambrose, or MacKay take over, roll up their sleeves and get working on cleanup. Hopefully some time in 2022 or so an opportune time arrives to trigger an election.
I think even if it is a minority Liberal government although I hope they can win a majority, the NDP will prop them up if necessary.  The NDP will not do anything that could give the Cons a chance so it will go the full four years in my opinion.


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 05, 2019, 22:59:06
At this point I just hope they can be held to a minority.

I think you should hope big and see them get the treatment they got in the Ontario election :)

I know the rallying cry is that Scheer is booooooooring. Maybe that's what we need. He's got 15 years of experience as politician and what's his biggest sins? Fudging a resume about insurance at 24 and not renouncing his US citizenship until it was convenient for him now.

Trudeau's past and present speak for themselves. If he gets the Liberals re-elected, even as a minority, it's showing Trudeau that he can behave however he wants and not be accountable.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 05, 2019, 23:06:35
Scheer is severely underwhelming.  My compelling reason to vote CPC right now is that the CPC's idea of fiscal policy is probably the best fit with the (apparently fiscally conservative) departmental regulars, which makes the CPC the best hedge against the imminent recession people keep talking about.  It won't be Harper and Flaherty, but I expect it would be better than the PM's puppeteers and Morneau, and much better than watching a LPC minority negotiate "stimulus spending" with NDP backers.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 05, 2019, 23:16:43
If he gets the Liberals re-elected, even as a minority, it's showing Trudeau that he can behave however he wants and not be accountable.

Who could support a leader like that?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 05, 2019, 23:35:47

I know the rallying cry is that Scheer is booooooooring.

To be honest boring is fine.  But he’s ineffective.  He waffles under pressure.  And quite likely will not be able to beat a PM who has had more embarrassing scandals than any in recent history. 

I’ll take a LPC minority that will be short lived (I honestly don’t think Trudeau can hold any type of coalition for very long) to allow someone better to replace Scheer.

Even on a fiscal front, there is very little difference between the CPC and LPC right now as far as their platforms are concerned. 

My vote will likely go to who I prefer in my riding.  And right now the incumbent CPC is not the most likeable. Another staffer who became a career politician.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on October 06, 2019, 00:07:42
To be honest boring is fine.  But he’s ineffective.  He waffles under pressure.  And quite likely will not be able to beat a PM who has had more embarrassing scandals than any in recent history. 

I’ll take a LPC minority that will be short lived (I honestly don’t think Trudeau can hold any type of coalition for very long) to allow someone better to replace Scheer.

Even on a fiscal front, there is very little difference between the CPC and LPC right now as far as their platforms are concerned. 

My vote will likely go to who I prefer in my riding.  And right now the incumbent CPC is not the most likeable. Another staffer who became a career politician.

That's my problem too. I'm going to have to choke back a lot of bile. The alternative is unthinkable.

 :brickwall:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 06, 2019, 01:56:28
There appears to be something of a fire developing on Twitter vis-a-vis the LPC and an injunction against the Globe and Mail.  :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 06, 2019, 03:10:22
between Kinsella, Marieka Walsh at the Globe, another unidentified source who was a litigant and party to a confidential settlement agreement, and some documents the Post Millennial has in its possession: there is a Non disclosure agreement that has certain terms including obtaining an injunction in the case of imminent breach by a party thereto.

It seems a certain person sent gliders a garment too far.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 06, 2019, 08:30:09
Just a reminder:  Twitter aflutter =/= truth or the whole story - remember it was also aflutter about this (https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/lucki-morneau-married-cousin-rumour-false-1.5288672), too  ;)
between Kinsella, Marieka Walsh at the Globe, another unidentified source who was a litigant and party to a confidential settlement agreement, and some documents the Post Millennial has in its possession: there is a Non disclosure agreement that has certain terms including obtaining an injunction in the case of imminent breach by a party thereto.
I haven't seen The Post Millenial say they have docs (their site or Twitter feed) - where's that popping up?

Walsh says JT said later that he didn't sign a non-disclosure agreement (https://twitter.com/MariekeWalsh/status/1180165463151648769)*, and the former headmaster sent CTV News the attached statement as well (https://twitter.com/glen_mcgregor/status/1180216128200683525).

:pop:

* - A bit of an experiment:  try reading that sentence six different ways, each time emphasizing a different word.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 06, 2019, 09:30:49

kin sella may have egg on his face...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 06, 2019, 10:16:43
kin sella may have egg on his face...

Uh-oh, not yellowface too!
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 06, 2019, 10:56:25
To be honest boring is fine.  But he’s ineffective.  He waffles under pressure.

I haven't seen any videos or sound bites of that but maybe you're right. Do any examples come to mind?

I'm thinking of Trudeau when someone asked him about plastic water bottles. Not much pressure there.

https://youtu.be/_sBxAvxr9fo

He's a drama teacher that excells at memorizing lines.
Quote

 And quite likely will not be able to beat a PM who has had more embarrassing scandals than any in recent history.


Yup. I had no idea who he was before the Conservative elected him. I wish it was Ambrose in that seat instead.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Chris Pook on October 06, 2019, 11:04:47

* - A bit of an experiment:  try reading that sentence six different ways, each time emphasizing a different word.

An amazingly effective technique.  But it still doesn't carry the nuances found in facial expressions and body language.  And a further reason why I dislike texting, emails and even this site (although it is an excellent site).  Nothing beats face to face communication.

Another, similar technique is to look at a photograph of a face and look at just the upper half, just the lower half, just the left side and just the right side.  Cover the bit you're not looking at.   See if the expressions in all cases match.  Routinely they don't.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 06, 2019, 11:34:54
There appears to be something of a fire developing on Twitter vis-a-vis the LPC and an injunction against the Globe and Mail.  :pop:

I’ve yet to see anything actually corroborating this. Plenty of people have said their G&M arrived on time (hard to completely re-print a newspaper for national distribution on short notice), so that quashes the ‘paper didn’t show up’ rumour.

An injunction would not be something that could stay secret. And it would do far more harm than good we’re there a story that would inevitably be getting out. The courts do not look kindly on giving injunctions in the sort of circumstances rumoured on this.

If the PM/LPC had muzzled a press outlet on a damaging story, every facet of the CPC’s campaign would be absolutely in an uproar over it. I don’t see them even asking pointed questions about it.

Given that we’re in an election period, and how desperately so many people want anything to be true that could hurt ‘the other side’, I’m not gonna credit this with a shred of legitimacy until there is credible corroboration. So far there isn’t even non-credible corroboration.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 06, 2019, 11:51:23

I haven't seen any videos or sound bites of that but maybe your right. Do any examples come to mind?

I'm thinking of Trudeau when someone asked him about plastic water bottles. Not much pressure there.

https://youtu.be/_sBxAvxr9fo

He's a drama teacher that excells at memorizing lines. 

Yup. I had no idea who he was before the Conservative elected him. I wish it was Ambrose in that seat instead.

Oh Trudeau waffles too.

Agreed about Ambrose.

Scheer’s performance in both debates was not good.  When questioned about his US citizenship at that press conference he looked like he’d been caught with his hand in the coolie jar.  His best response was that’s no one ever asked...

If he had stated what he said about his stance on abortion this week a few months ago the whole issue would be done and over with.  But he stuck to a line no one was buying. 

I hope he does better this week but I suspect he will struggle again.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 06, 2019, 12:00:25
There appears to be something of a fire developing on Twitter vis-a-vis the LPC and an injunction against the Globe and Mail.  :pop:

https://mobile.twitter.com/kinsellawarren/status/1180857827839156224


Looks like he’s backtracking but also insinuating that someone’s got to them

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 06, 2019, 12:09:36
https://mobile.twitter.com/kinsellawarren/status/1180857827839156224


Looks like he’s backtracking but also insinuating that someone’s got to them

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:

*shrug* It’s Kinsella. The noise:signal ratio is typically pretty high.

He did kinda put himself out farther than usual on this one...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 06, 2019, 12:12:26
*shrug* It’s Kinsella. The noise:signal ratio is typically pretty high.
True, but it's funny how so many people who would have mocked him as a Liberal hack/operator/bag man a week ago are happy to offer this up as evidence of sorts when it's about someone they hate even more.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 06, 2019, 12:27:26
https://mobile.twitter.com/kinsellawarren/status/1180857827839156224


Looks like he’s backtracking but also insinuating that someone’s got to them

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Maybe butts had lunch with them.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 06, 2019, 12:33:16
An amazingly effective technique.  But it still doesn't carry the nuances found in facial expressions and body language.  And a further reason why I dislike texting, emails and even this site (although it is an excellent site).  Nothing beats face to face communication.
You're right about the treasure trove of data to be culled by watching.  To be completely fair, the quote is from the reporter's Twitter post, not verbatim from JT.  Still, it can be useful to go over transcripts to avoid getting distracted by the visual, too.  Lots of different ways of learning out there, indeed.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 06, 2019, 12:39:54
Jack Knox for Prime Minister :)

Jack Knox: Be afraid. Be very afraid. It’s the Politicians


Frankly, it has been hard to keep up. Even now, promises rain down like candy from a parade float. A tax on luxury cars. A federal Family Day holiday. Caps on ATM charges. Planting two billion trees. Planting 10 billion trees.


Except nothing’s really sticking, is it? No one is quite sure what this election is all about, so now it has shifted to the trivial and the distracting, the sideshows outdrawing the main stage as the leaders go after each other’s supposed flaws.

Not that we in the news media aren’t complicit. It usually goes something like this:

Trudeau at a campaign stop: “Today I would like to unveil sweeping agricultural reforms that promise prosperity to canola farmers here in Broken Dreams, Saskatchewan.”

Media: “Boring. What about Andrew Scheer’s vestigial tail?”

Trudeau: “Um, vestigial tails have no place in a free and open society.”

Newspaper headline: “Trudeau rips Scheer over hidden tail.”

Scheer: “I don’t have a vestigial tail, but you might want to check Bernier.”

NDP press release: “Typical Scheer: Deny, deny, deflect -- just like that sketchy Elizabeth May.”

May: “I thought Singh was better than this. You should be disappointed in him.”

Times Colonist editorial -- “Tailgate: Let’s get to the bottom of this” (the TC has some very clever headline writers).

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/jack-knox-be-afraid-be-very-afraid-it-s-the-politicians-1.23967945
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 06, 2019, 12:41:57
I did like one of the follow-on comments to the Kinsella tweet:
Quote
Being this dumb should disqualify you from voting.  What is even the point of facts and evidence when dumb people just believe anything?
     :rofl:   
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 06, 2019, 13:00:50
True, but it's funny how so many people who would have mocked him as a Liberal hack/operator/bag man a week ago are happy to offer this up as evidence of sorts when it's about someone they hate even more.
Kinsella is a Chretien Liberal. He has made it clear that he has absolutely clear that he has no time for Trudeau or any of his crew. He believes the Liberals need to lose this election to get rid of the Trudeau crowd from the Party. To his core, I think he is still a Liberal, even if the current party leadership and him are not on speaking terms (to put it mildly).

He may not be wrong. Even a Liberal minority would likely bring about a Conservative leadership review. I doubt they would make the same mistake, twice, and the Liberals are likely to face very effective opposition in 6-12 months.

Plus, the Liberals have gone out of their way to make enemies of 6 provincial premiers (the Conservative ones, especially Ontario). Good luck getting any cooperation out of them. Good luck keeping 650 first nations on side. Good luck if separatism breaks out into the mainstream in Alberta and Saskatchewan and good luck if the economy even catches a whiff of a cold.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 06, 2019, 13:52:04
In fairness to Mr Scheer, I don't think the Conservative Party ever expected this election to be so close. When he was selected as leader, I felt that he was there to "mind the shop" until the next leader could be selected in about six years, when the country was well and truly tired of the Liberals. A nice guy who could keep the various factions of the party together until someone more dynamic was made available.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 06, 2019, 13:59:12
In fairness to Mr Scheer, I don't think the Conservative Party ever expected this election to be so close. When he was selected as leader, I felt that he was there to "mind the shop" until the next leader could be selected in about six years, when the country was well and truly tired of the Liberals. A nice guy who could keep the various factions of the party together until someone more dynamic was made available.

That is actually very well said and a point of view I had not considered. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 06, 2019, 14:05:13
Kinsella is a Chretien Liberal. He has made it clear that he has absolutely clear that he has no time for Trudeau or any of his crew. He believes the Liberals need to lose this election to get rid of the Trudeau crowd from the Party. To his core, I think he is still a Liberal, even if the current party leadership and him are not on speaking terms (to put it mildly).
Just like some say today's Conservatives aren't quite like the "old version" Conservatives - very good point.  And he's likely not the only Team Red member who's less than enamoured of the leadership.

Still, a lot of people I see re-tweeting him don't have your nuanced take on his shade of Red.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 06, 2019, 14:25:33
Still, a lot of people I see re-tweeting him don't have your nuanced take on his shade of Red.
Quite a few political discussions are all about nuance...… and facts.   ;D
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 06, 2019, 14:30:24
Quite a few political discussions and memes are all about nuance...… and facts.   ;D
FTFY  ;D
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 06, 2019, 15:03:53
In fairness to Mr Scheer, I don't think the Conservative Party ever expected this election to be so close. When he was selected as leader, I felt that he was there to "mind the shop" until the next leader could be selected in about six years, when the country was well and truly tired of the Liberals. A nice guy who could keep the various factions of the party together until someone more dynamic was made available.

I have been reflecting on this a bit. Maybe, if they (conservatives) do get elected.. he may show qualities that could enchant those who may not usually vote conservative.

Maybe we all want a more dynamic fellow, but a "blah" candidate is what we need.. I think scheer is an intelligent fellow.. just how intelligent remains to be seen.

If he gets elected, I hope he is on genius level and garners more support over his term. Maybe a minority government with him as leader will be best.. I would prefer a farther right government then he seems to be.. but most Canadian's do not want that. Maybe a relaxed minority, that shows Canadians that are against the right that we are not evil.. could be good.

But this is all a pipe dream, sadly.
Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 06, 2019, 16:17:38
A few possible scenarios.

1. A minority CPC victory could wind up playing out like Joe Clark's short-lived government.  CPC victory prompts LPC to find a better leader; they find one; Scheer governs uninspiringly; CPC gets booted after a short run and LPC is back.

2. LPC wins a majority.  Trudeau is harder to replace, but Scheer is toast.  CPC has an opportunity to become competitive.

3. LPC wins a minority.  Knives eventually come out for Trudeau.
3a.  Scheer is able to stagger on; CPC continues to be weak; new LPC leader leads to victory.
3b.  Scheer accepts that he ain't got it; CPC has an opportunity to become competitive.

My preferred case is 1a, which isn't on the list because I doubt Scheer has the backbone for it: CPC minority; Scheer accepts that he is weak because he couldn't defeat such a flawed LPC government and resigns early on.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Old Sweat on October 06, 2019, 16:27:14
Re any of the possible case, and especially  the unstated 1a, I feel that individuals who strive for party leadership, and then becoming prime minister, do not suffer from an excess of modesty and self-doubt. If Scheer was to win the prize of his political life, he would be unlikely to surrender it, so that a better person could assume the mantle of leadership.

Is a party revolt in the cards, especially after having won the race? It seems unlikely. We'll see.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 06, 2019, 16:29:53
Any minority won’t last.

Whoever takes over from that will likely get 4 years.

Think about what scenario you would prefer.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 06, 2019, 18:56:27
Not sure if everyone knows this already but advanced polls are open.  Just saying this because several people at work had no idea they could vote now. When my wife and I voted there was only one other person voting at the time so we were in and out in about 5 minutes.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 06, 2019, 19:22:30

Trudeau won't remove Liberal candidate for racist, sexist social-media posts
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/trudeau-wont-remove-liberal-candidate-for-racist-sexist-social-media-posts/ar-AAImSNV

Quote
Trudeau sidestepped a question about whether he feels limited in his ability to censure candidates for past racist behaviours after photos and a video emerged in the first week of the campaign showing the Liberal leader wearing blackface makeup.

Good news for Liberal candidates.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 06, 2019, 19:32:34
A few possible scenarios.

1. A minority CPC victory could wind up playing out like Joe Clark's short-lived government.  CPC victory prompts LPC to find a better leader; they find one; Scheer governs uninspiringly; CPC gets booted after a short run and LPC is back.

2. LPC wins a majority.  Trudeau is harder to replace, but Scheer is toast.  CPC has an opportunity to become competitive.

3. LPC wins a minority.  Knives eventually come out for Trudeau.
3a.  Scheer is able to stagger on; CPC continues to be weak; new LPC leader leads to victory.
3b.  Scheer accepts that he ain't got it; CPC has an opportunity to become competitive.

My preferred case is 1a, which isn't on the list because I doubt Scheer has the backbone for it: CPC minority; Scheer accepts that he is weak because he couldn't defeat such a flawed LPC government and resigns early on.

... you forgot one:

4. Concurrently, the Left remains hopelessly divided between the 'Cray Cray Greens' (CCG) and the Under-performing Lighweight Neo-NDP (ULNNDP) giving the other two a chance to romp in the park without fear of being taken on by a formerly impressive and credible political alternative at the other end of the spectrum.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 06, 2019, 19:38:20
I can't believe I'm cheering for the Bloc... the enemy of my enemy is my friend I guess... but it looks like the Bloc might be the force that saves the rest of Canada from a Liberal majority despite our collective stupidity.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 06, 2019, 19:50:42
I’m being cynical but maybe we could persuade a few more “pretty boys” to run . This last one is a disaster.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 06, 2019, 20:01:56
Not sure if everyone knows this already but advanced polls are open.  Just saying this because several people at work had no idea they could vote now. When my wife and I voted there was only one other person voting at the time so we were in and out in about 5 minutes.

It will be a two hour drive their and back. But doing it tomorrow, going to book off from work now. Totally forgot about that myself.

Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 07, 2019, 09:11:46
If he gets elected, I hope he is on genius level...
Not just genius, but "stable genius."TM   :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 07, 2019, 12:40:17
Not sure if everyone knows this already but advanced polls are open.  Just saying this because several people at work had no idea they could vote now. When my wife and I voted there was only one other person voting at the time so we were in and out in about 5 minutes.

Semantics (ways to vote (https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=vote&document=index&lang=e)).  While any eligible elector can vote using the "special ballot process" at any Elections Canada office (https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=spr&dir=voting&document=votecoff&lang=e) before 1800 hrs 16 October or at one of over 115 campuses (https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=spr&dir=voting&document=votecoff&lang=e) between October 5 to October 9, "Advance Polls" (a different process) will only be open on 11, 12, 13 and 14 October.  On those days voters will have to go to their assigned advance polling place.

Or those voting as CF electors, just go where and when they tell you.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 07, 2019, 18:51:58
In fairness to Mr Scheer, I don't think the Conservative Party ever expected this election to be so close. When he was selected as leader, I felt that he was there to "mind the shop" until the next leader could be selected in about six years, when the country was well and truly tired of the Liberals. A nice guy who could keep the various factions of the party together until someone more dynamic was made available.

Agreed and I have said this many times.  But I think the same can be said for Libs.  Trudeau was expected to be the return of the Sun King.  Easily a 2 term PM, perhaps more ? 

I am not so sure that the Federal Liberal high brass expected JT to be so divisive or such a liability every time he opens his mouth. 

In short I don't think any of the 2 major parties really expect we would be where we are now.  A very very divisive and tight race.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 07, 2019, 18:54:28
One has shown he can't meet high expectations. The other has the chance to show he can exceed low ones.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: BurnDoctor on October 07, 2019, 18:59:43
One has shown he can't meet high expectations. The other has the chance to show he can exceed low ones.

Very well said.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 07, 2019, 21:10:29
Watching this debate right now I see that Scheer does a better job on attacking Trudeau instead of giving good answers.  I would rather him say what his party would do if elected and let the voter decide if leader's policy is good or not.  His constant attacks are part of what got me not to vote for the Cons.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 07, 2019, 21:23:30
My impression is that Trudeau is running against Harper, and Scheer is running against Trudeau but not running for himself & his party.

Singh made a comment about it earlier tonight - something along the lines of "You're spending all your time on why people shouldn't vote for the other guy, instead of giving them reasons why they should vote for you".
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on October 07, 2019, 21:41:15
I've tried twice now to watch this debate. Ugh its just so depressing that this is our choice for leadership.

And WTF is the Bloc doing on a national debate? Even if they seem to have chance of having the balance of power they still have zero intentions of thinking about the wants and needs of all Canadians.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Baden Guy on October 07, 2019, 21:52:44
I'm a political geek and I couldn't stand watching this "debate."  :boring:
I 'll see how the "after party" summary goes.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 07, 2019, 22:02:24
My impression is that Trudeau is running against Harper, and Scheer is running against Trudeau but not running for himself & his party.

Singh made a comment about it earlier tonight - something along the lines of "You're spending all your time on why people shouldn't vote for the other guy, instead of giving them reasons why they should vote for you".

It's been posted to Singh's Twitter account:

Quote
What we're seeing tonight is Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Scheer arguing over what is worse for Canada.

I believe we need to be fighting for what will be best for Canada. We need to demand more – not be scared into settling for less.
https://twitter.com/theJagmeetSingh/status/1181356724541968385
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 07, 2019, 22:06:19
That debate format was terrible.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 07, 2019, 22:10:07
I'm a political geek and I couldn't stand watching this "debate."  :boring:
I 'll see how the "after party" summary goes.

Watched a few minutes and changed channels. Might have watched more,
but ran out of beer.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on October 07, 2019, 23:18:01
It was more like watching children bickering
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 07, 2019, 23:20:56
My impression is that Trudeau is running against Harper, and Scheer is running against Trudeau but not running for himself & his party.

Singh made a comment about it earlier tonight - something along the lines of "You're spending all your time on why people shouldn't vote for the other guy, instead of giving them reasons why they should vote for you".

I think it seems like Trudeau is running against Harper because when you really look at what the CPC are promising, it's just sounds like a repeat of what Harper ran on.  Nothing really new that I see. 

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 08, 2019, 00:07:22
These aren’t debates. It’s a bull crap 💩 way of making themselves look good.
Political theatre.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 08, 2019, 07:49:42
Yankees beat the Twins last night to take the ALDS...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 08, 2019, 08:20:08
Political theatre.
:nod: - and not just the debates.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 08, 2019, 08:21:38
Watched a few minutes and changed channels. Might have watched more, but ran out of beer.
Yet some people still ignore the importance of logistics.   :nod:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 08, 2019, 09:09:44
Yankees beat the Twins last night to take the ALDS...

The debate gave me ALDS
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: GR66 on October 08, 2019, 11:52:48
Painfully watched the gong show with my 23 year old son.  Afterward he said he'll have to look over the NDP platform in more detail as Jagmeet Singh was the only leader he didn't want to strangle after it was done.

That could potentially be a bid sign for the Liberals if a significant number of people on the left wing of the party's supporters bleed away to the NDP.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 08, 2019, 11:55:57
To be honest I have never voted NDP.  But that may become a real choice for me if this keeps up. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on October 08, 2019, 12:33:44
After last night, Orange Crush round two would be great to see. Say a CPC minority with the NDP in opposition
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 08, 2019, 12:49:10
Shakespeare had it right:

"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 08, 2019, 13:23:00
I think it seems like Trudeau is running against Harper because when you really look at what the CPC are promising, it's just sounds like a repeat of what Harper ran on.  Nothing really new that I see.

Trudeau is running against the provinces and seems to be an agent of the United Nations or, more likely, bucking for 'Secretary General'.

I'd be happy to send him on his way via magic carpet, which would be culturally appropriate for a cultural appropriator :)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on October 08, 2019, 13:29:27
Trudeau is running against the provinces and seems to be an agent of the United Nations or, more likely, bucking for 'Secretary General'.

I'd be happy to send him on his way via magic carpet, which would be culturally appropriate for a cultural appropriator :)

The fact he is fighting the provinces shows he doesn't have the backing of the Canadian people, which divides the country further. We need a leader who tries to bridge the gap and communicate and work with the provinces.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 08, 2019, 13:32:43
Trudeau is running against the provinces and seems to be an agent of the United Nations or, more likely, bucking for 'Secretary General'.

I'd be happy to send him on his way via magic carpet, which would be culturally appropriate for a cultural appropriator :)

Yes, lets promote him out of his position. I'd buy him a nice blue beret as a parting gift for him to play dress up.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AlDazz on October 08, 2019, 14:07:30
The most alarming part of this whole process is the total absence of any policy on defence or international affairs.  Where is Canada going in the world?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on October 08, 2019, 14:50:40
The most alarming part of this whole process is the total absence of any policy on defence or international affairs.  Where is Canada going in the world?

Those are topics in the french debate
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 08, 2019, 16:35:34
Yankees beat the Twins last night to take the ALDS...

I should have watched that instead, it would of been much more enjoyable.  I feel like I wasted 2 hours of my life last night.



Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 08, 2019, 21:25:23
There appears to be something of a fire developing on Twitter vis-a-vis the LPC and an injunction against the Globe and Mail.  :pop:
The latest (https://www.canadalandshow.com/rumours-of-suppressed-trudeau-affair-story-are-bullshit/), from a media criticism/critique site which will not be taking advantage of the big print media tax breaks:
Quote
...  journalists there had been looking into the reasons behind Trudeau’s departure from the school. But they didn’t find anything nefarious.

Reporters at the paper have been confused, for weeks, about this rumoured story.

At a press conference late last week, Globe reporter Marieke Walsh asked Trudeau about what she described as “unfounded rumours” about why he left. “I moved on,” Trudeau said. He was also asked about whether he signed a non-disclosure agreement. His answer, simply, was “no.”

Two well-placed sources at the paper tell Canadaland that, yes, there was an investigation into why he left the school — but that it failed to turn up any evidence of an alleged affair. There was no court injunction, no gag order.

Even the premise of the idea that the courts got involved is wild — while a judge could, in theory, bar a newspaper from reporting such a story, it couldn’t make secret the fact that it heard the case. Trudeau v. The Globe and Mail would be on the court dockets. It isn’t.

The Liberal Party has also told Canadaland categorically, no, there is no court action of any kind against the Globe ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 08, 2019, 21:39:01
From Politico, an American view of the debates:

Quote
'You are a phony, you are a fraud': 5 takeaways from the Canadian debate
Canadian party leaders


By RYAN HEATH, ALEXANDER PANETTA and LAUREN GARDNER

10/07/2019 11:57 PM EDT

Justin Trudeau survived, Andrew Scheer went there on the blackface scandal and populists courted north-of-the-border Trump fans with a "Canada First” promise.

Two weeks before Oct. 21 elections, Canada's six party leaders took the stage at the National History Museum in Gatineau, Quebec on Monday night — and with only one official English language debate scheduled, none of them could afford to misfire. Canadians may be a polite bunch, but this was a raucous, squabbling debate.

All eyes were on the once-ascendant Trudeau; only recently an icon of global liberals, he’s been hobbled by a series of scandals and came in with much to lose, including his majority government. For Conservative opposition leader Scheer, it was a final chance to overtake Trudeau’s Liberals in a race that's neck-and-neck, according to national polls. Feeding into that cacophony were regional and fringe parties, including the People’s Party and the Bloc Quebecois, which could play a huge role as spoilers and swing the election to Trudeau’s Liberals — or condemn them to a minority government in a few short weeks. Early voting in the election starts Friday.

Here are five key takeaways from POLITICO's reporting team in Gatineau and Washington, D.C.:

Trudeau didn’t lose — but he didn’t win

Justin Trudeau had the most to lose; he's had a bad few weeks since photos were released of him in racist makeup, and that came after a bad few months of revelations about the SNC-Lavalin scandal. So Trudeau played defense most of Monday night, as rivals on the left and right tried to tackle him. It was always going to be hard for him to assert his prime ministerial authority. He could either wrestle with his five noisy opponents or look on passively from a distance. His efforts to do both made him look average, not unstoppable. After initially holding back from the fray, in the second half of the debate Trudeau tried to turn provincial issues — like Quebec’s Bill 21 on religious headwear in government workplaces and the unpopularity of Ontario Premier Doug Ford — into national ones. It’s not clear it worked. Trudeau’s strongest moments came in explaining his “ambitious but feasible” climate policies. They were attacked relentlessly, and sometimes reasonably, but his opponents didn’t demonstrate their own plans were more workable.

Andrew Scheer passed the prime minister plausibility test

Conservative opposition leader Andrew Scheer — largely unknown internationally — succeeded on two fronts, which delivers him a points victory rather than a knockout blow against Trudeau. First, Scheer proved he can play a moderate when he wants to — something that is essential for him to win over suburban voters around Toronto. Canada's Liberals, after all, want voters to lump Scheer together with Donald Trump. But Scheer was able to brush past Trudeau’s efforts to hammer him for his conservative past and present views on social hot-buttons like abortion. Scheer was also aggressive and successful in confronting Trudeau on his ethical and climate contradictions. He set up several exchanges that allowed voters to look at him and think “there’s my next prime minister.”

Scheer can also consider himself lucky that People's Party leader Maxime Bernier was fairly ineffectual in attacking him from the right, given that his moderate pitch left him exposed on that flank. For all that work and good fortune, Scheer did not deliver a knock-out blow: in fact, he was weakest during what should have been his strong suit, the debate section on pocketbook issues. It's still Trudeau’s election to lose.

Scheer weaponizes the blackface scandal

Scheer brought up Trudeau’s blackface scandal as Exhibit A of his broader case against the prime minister. While the controversy, amazingly, did not come up in the first French-language debate last week, Scheer used the Monday exchange to call Trudeau a phony who’s alienated the voters who believed in him. Remember: For Scheer to prevail Oct. 21 he needs progressives to abandon Trudeau for the NDP and Greens, splitting the vote on the left. So Scheer turned the blackface scandal into an assault. “He can’t even remember how many times he put blackface on. Because the fact of the matter is he’s always wearing a mask,” Scheer said, alluding to how Trudeau, the self-proclaimed feminist, dumped female Cabinet members who crossed him. “Mr. Trudeau, you are a phony, you are a fraud, and you do not deserve to govern this country.” It’s notable that Scheer delivered his toughest shot right off the top; last week in the French debate, pundits concluded he’d had a weak start, when the most viewers are tuned it. Scheer’s poll numbers subsequently sagged in Quebec.

Populism is now part of Canadian politics

For decades, Canadian political parties have embraced multiculturalism, yet on Monday night People's Party leader Maxime Bernier directly bemoaned current immigration levels. He said Canada adds “the equivalent of one Nova Scotia every three years.” He also winked at pro-Trump Canadians with an early reference to “Canada First.” But it’s unclear how much of a dent he truly made. Bernier’s national poll numbers are atrocious, and, speaking in his second language, English, he wasn’t nearly as polished as the mainstream Conservative, Scheer, whom he’s hoping to challenge. Scheer almost certainly got the better of their exchanges. And he raised real doubts about the authenticity of Bernier’s Canadian populist turn. Sheer alluded to Bernier once having been a Quebec separatist, and to his past as a small-government libertarian in a mainstream Conservative Cabinet before his recent, and sudden, mimicking of Trump. “I’m not sure which Maxime Bernier I’m debating tonight,” Scheer said.

Left-wingers won the battle of the minor parties.


New Democratic Party leader Jagmeet Singh and Green Party leader Elizabeth May landed more solid jabs against Trudeau, from whom they need to steal votes, than Bernier did in targeting Scheer. The debates hold outsize importance for minor parties because they're rare opportunities to get in front of millions of voters on an equal footing as the major parties. On the left, Singh made sure to set himself apart from Trudeau on everything from taxes to indigenous relations. He also went in on the Liberals’ climate record and the Conservatives’ plan simultaneously, telling the voters they “do not need to choose between Mr. Delay and Mr. Deny.” Having had the worst year of all the minor parties in national opinion polls, Singh had the most room for improvement and he used it.

May took all other leaders to task on their climate plans — a Green Party leader would do that — but she made sure to turn directly to Trudeau to register her disappointment with his climate record, noting that Canada is far from achieving the carbon emission reductions scientists say are necessary to avert the worst warming of the planet. Her main point: Trudeau does not deserve to govern alone in a second term, and the Greens deserve to be the junior partner holding him to account. Her killer line: “Voting for Green MPs is your very best guarantee, Canada, that you don’t get the government you least want.”

Scheer did a better job pushing back his fringe threat. In an early exchange on immigration, he dropped one of several allusions to Bernier being a fraud. “You have changed,” Scheer told the self-styled populist. “Now you are making your policy based on trying to get Likes and Retweets from the darkest parts of Twitter.”

 Article Link (https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/07/canada-debate-english-leaders-038540)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 09, 2019, 09:41:46
Where is Canada going in the world?
The second part of the question would be ".....and why am I in this hand basket?"   :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 09, 2019, 16:18:35
We're clearly approaching peak stupid; although I acknowledge that there's probably no such thing:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sgro-blackface-comments-singh-1.5314744

The look on the interviewer's face as she tried to process what she was being told is priceless. She'll probably still win her seat though  :facepalm:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 09, 2019, 16:55:24
The Doug factor,

Quote
Global News

October 9, 2019

Doug Ford factor looms large in election as Liberals seize on premier’s tanking popularity

Doug Ford may have kept his promise to stay out of the federal election spotlight, but it was inevitable that he would be front and centre anyway.

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has seized onto the Ontario premier’s tanking popularity and tried to anchor it to federal Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer, invoking Ford’s name at every turn as a harbinger of Conservative doom and gloom.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6010782/doug-ford-factor-federal-election/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Spencer100 on October 09, 2019, 18:12:19
I don't the get the Doug hate.  He's done so very little.

When will the conservatives ever learn. They hate hate you so you might as well be conservative when you are in power.

Cutting the rate of growth of the budget is not cutting the budget.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 09, 2019, 18:38:55
The Doug factor,

Quote
Justin Trudeau has seized onto the Ontario premier’s tanking popularity and tried to anchor it to federal Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer, invoking Ford’s name at every turn as a harbinger of Conservative doom and gloom.

I think you mean the desperate Liberal factor.

Their leader is so messed up that because of his OWN behavior he can't even fire a candidate for calling women c**nts, suggesting FN women are meth heads, making fun of Chinese people, joking about drinking and driving and making homophobic comments.

Trudeau's got his deflectors set to maximum. The Liberals don't even have party status in Ontario lol
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 09, 2019, 18:44:07
I think you mean the desperate Liberal factor.

That was the quote in the Global News October 9, 2019 headline,

Quote
Doug Ford factor looms large in election as Liberals seize on premier’s tanking popularity
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,131141.msg1585953/topicseen.html#new

Recent polling has his approval ratings in the 20s and 30s, and Abacus Data found in July that 65 per cent of Ontarians had a negative impression of Ford, up from 48 per cent last October.



Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 09, 2019, 18:51:45
Seen that, sorry.  I should have said they for more clarity.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 09, 2019, 18:58:02
I just know what I read in the papers.  :)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 10, 2019, 13:29:09

Looking at the poll tracker three days after the debate we see a bit of movement.  Might be unrelated.

But the Liberals slow rise in numbers stalled yesterday and they went down as of today.

The CPC was falling at a slow rate but we see an almost 1 point drop today.  Coincidentally the NDP went up by the same amount.

I think it is probably too late for the NDP to make up any ground but we might be seeing some undecided voters move their votes to the NDP based on Singh's rising popularity or even some younger voters moving to that band wagon. 

I wonder what portion of the vote the Bloc is gaining from.  Possibly some rural Quebec voters that would have gone Blue and some NDP/Liberal bits here and there.

Getting down to the wire but some voters might be making up their minds this weekend with advance polling.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 10, 2019, 16:50:38
Whatever happens, we know that younger voters probably won't:


Why young people don’t vote

Turnout at elections is far lower for young people than any other cohort. Why?

It is not only in America that the young do not exercise their democratic rights. In 2010 just 44% of people aged 18 to 24 voted in Britain’s general election, compared with 65% of people of all ages. In not a single European country do the young turn out more than older people. Historically, youth turnout has never been particularly high anywhere, but over the past few decades things have got worse. One explanation favoured by older people is that the young are simply lazy. But this does not make much sense. Today’s young people volunteer more than old people; they are much better educated; and they are less likely to drink excessively or use drugs than previous generations of youth. That does not seem like a recipe for political apathy.

A better explanation may be that young people today do not feel they have much of a stake in society. Having children and owning property gives you a direct interest in how schools and hospitals are run, and whether parks and libraries are maintained. But if they settle down at all, young people are waiting ever longer to do it.

Yet perhaps the most depressing explanation is simply that in many places, young people do not feel that there is anyone worth voting for.

Young people—who tend to be more cosmopolitan, liberal and hopeful than their elders—tend to be switched off by the negativity and cynicism of election campaigns targeting the unhappy old. Sadly, cynicism then breeds cynicism.

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2014/10/29/why-young-people-dont-vote
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 10, 2019, 19:52:26

Laying the ground work?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ndp-singh-priorities-minority-1.5315981
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 10, 2019, 20:47:41
Laying the ground work?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ndp-singh-priorities-minority-1.5315981

Singh is also a freedom hater aka wants to ban firearms for votes.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 10, 2019, 21:27:14
Singh is also a freedom hater aka wants to ban firearms for votes.

A coalition or agreement could keep a Liberal minority in power for some time.  The NDP will want their demands met and I assume the land will agree in order to stay in power.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on October 10, 2019, 23:43:33
A coalition or agreement could keep a Liberal minority in power for some time.  The NDP will want their demands met and I assume the land will agree in order to stay in power.

Well electroal reform would benefit the NDP, and smaller parties, so if he sticks to that demand, things could get interesting
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 11, 2019, 00:20:36
So if it is the will of the people to elect a Conservative government, he won't support it. Not really "in it for you" then.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 11, 2019, 07:38:11
So if it is the will of the people to elect a Conservative government, he won't support it. Not really "in it for you" then.

He’s said as much.  Would have to see if he follows through.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 11, 2019, 07:51:09
Here's the thing though, he might have painted himself into a corner. He's assuming that he will hold the balance of power. Nothing prevents the Liberals and Conservatives from supporting each other. They're more likely to find common ground now, thanks to the NDP list of demands.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 11, 2019, 08:33:52
Here's the thing though, he might have painted himself into a corner. He's assuming that he will hold the balance of power. Nothing prevents the Liberals and Conservatives from supporting each other. They're more likely to find common ground now, thanks to the NDP list of demands.

True but if we go with the current seat projections the NDP would be fourth but still have enough to prop up a LPC minority.  They would likely have more influence as the fourth party than any of the others. 

CPC and LPC platforms are almost identical minus a few issues so finding common ground would be easy if it wasn't for personalities.  There is no way any CPC party leader would survive the backlash from their base if they ever teamed up with TEAM red.

I've mentioned this, but a liberal minority propped up by the NDP.  Scheer steps down, someone better steps up. The LPC will likely have another scandal (they can't help themselves) enough of which that the NDP will pull their support.  It's a question of when. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 11, 2019, 08:43:15
I would agree for the most part, except for the longevity of the leaders. Trudeau likely needs a majority to avoid a leadership review, Scheer does not. As I previously stated, I don't think anyone in the CPC expected Scheer to last past one election cycle.

Of course the other thing is that the CPC doesn't actually need to take Quebec to win, where the LPC does.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 11, 2019, 09:42:20
.....young people do not feel that there is anyone worth voting for.
Age isn't a factor.   :(
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 11, 2019, 10:01:52
I would agree for the most part, except for the longevity of the leaders. Trudeau likely needs a majority to avoid a leadership review, Scheer does not. As I previously stated, I don't think anyone in the CPC expected Scheer to last past one election cycle.

Of course the other thing is that the CPC doesn't actually need to take Quebec to win, where the LPC does.

One scenario might be to have Trudeau step down while they still have power.  The CPC will have a leadership race and it might take 6-12 months to sort that out. 

The CPC can't afford to lose seats in Quebec. They need Ontario BC and Alberta.  they have Alberta but not enough right now in BC or Ontario.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 11, 2019, 10:14:35
...The CPC will have a leadership race and it might take 6-12 months to sort that out...

I'll go out on a limb and say, "I don't think it would take that long." :nod:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 11, 2019, 10:20:04
I'll go out on a limb and say, "I don't think it would take that long." :nod:

Regards
G2G

Well the last one was 2 and a half years after harper stepped down.  But the CPC toyed with the idea of doing it in May 2016 which was 7 months. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 11, 2019, 10:34:01
Well the last one was 2 and a half years after harper stepped down.  But the CPC toyed with the idea of doing it in May 2016 which was 7 months.

It will likely be a minority (LPC I think), but depending on the narrowness of the margin, I think that a CPC reset ASAP will result in greater pressure on the new Government.  :2c:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 11, 2019, 10:35:28
So a quick side bar on polls.

I've been looking at Eric Grenier's poll tracker and mostly ignore individual polls.

Nanos seems to have the Liberals too far ahead but I would point to this:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/election/how-the-nanos-polls-stacked-up-against-the-final-election-results-1.2618950?cid=ps:localnewscampaign:searchad:ds:Ottawacrawl

I'll be curious to see how close they come this time.



 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 11, 2019, 10:36:52
It will likely be a minority (LPC I think), but depending on the narrowness of the margin, I think that a CPC reset ASAP will result in greater pressure on the new Government.  :2c:

Regards
G2G

Agreed.  I'm just not 100% sure they can get organised that quick.  I hope they do and it is what they will need to do.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 11, 2019, 10:56:18
Latest polltracker shows the LPC have lost their seat advantage as the Bloc keeps rising.

 https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

This is one tight race to the bottom.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 11, 2019, 13:58:33
Whether the NDP might want to support a minority LPC government may be beside the point.  The magic number is 170.  Looking at Grenier's poll tracker on CBC just now, the projection for the two combined is only 164.  Add GRN and it's 168.

If the combined weight of NDP + GRN is insufficient and the government is a minority, then either the LPC or CPC allows the other to govern... or the governing party cuts deals with the Bloc, which I predict would be the kiss-of-death for the next election.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 11, 2019, 14:08:39
One disappointing ramifications of the Bloc’s climb is that it may sap the Conservative candidate in Beauce enough to give Bernier his seat. I’m really hoping to see him and his party shut out.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 11, 2019, 21:09:05
Conservative platform's out as of this afternoon (https://www.conservative.ca/andrew-scheer-reveals-his-plan-for-you-to-get-ahead/) (link to news release -- 103pg PDF of document here (https://cpc-platform.s3.ca-central-1.amazonaws.com/CPC_Platform_8.5x11_FINAL_EN_OCT11_web.pdf)), with PBO-estimated program costs of interest around these parts attached.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 11, 2019, 22:03:17
Conservative platform's out as of this afternoon (https://www.conservative.ca/andrew-scheer-reveals-his-plan-for-you-to-get-ahead/) (link to news release -- 103pg PDF of document here (https://cpc-platform.s3.ca-central-1.amazonaws.com/CPC_Platform_8.5x11_FINAL_EN_OCT11_web.pdf)), with PBO-estimated program costs of interest around these parts attached.

Any thoughts on how this might be different from Harper’s platform?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 11, 2019, 22:57:50
Any thoughts on how this might be different from Harper’s platform?
At the risk of copping out, comparing election-to-election platforms can be tricky because like many plans, platforms rarely fully survive contact with day-to-day politics, the economy, internal & outside events not factored into the platform when it was made, etc., no matter what team jersey's involved.  For example, ask the Ontario NDP about how "provincializing" auto insurance went on their watch.  I look at & share this stuff as just one tile (mixed with media statements, debate content, public statements & party policy/convention  papers) in the mosaic answering the question "what do you think they'll do if they take the wheel?"

One quick & dirty example:  vets.  In 2015, the Team Red book promised "re-establish lifelong pensions", and we've seen where that went - can't afford you right now, sorry.  In 2011, Team Blue's book bragged about passing "the Enhanced New Veterans Charter Act," and we saw where that went - litigation.

For anyone wanting to do a deeper dive, though, here's Team Blue's 2015 platform document (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/2454398/conservative-platform-2015.pdf), and here's their 2011 platform document (http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/83811-52596515-conservative-platform-2011.html).
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 12, 2019, 09:38:28
Any thoughts on how this might be different from Harper’s platform?

Should it be ? 

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 12, 2019, 10:17:18
One disappointing ramifications of the Bloc’s climb is that it may sap the Conservative candidate in Beauce enough to give Bernier his seat. I’m really hoping to see him and his party shut out.

Interestingly, I was talking with one of my co-workers yesterday and she stated that she was thinking of voting for the PPC. Also stated that many of her friends are thinking about doing the same. And as an aside I'm seeing more PPC party signs here in Kingston than Green Party signs.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 12, 2019, 11:51:07
The National Post (https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/cbc-sues-the-conservative-party-over-copyright-journalists-moral-rights), but not the CBC is carrying a story about CBC suing the CPC.

If there was no pubic perception of bias before, there certainly might be now.

*corrected now that the story is up on CBC.

Interesting that they're not allowing comments.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 12, 2019, 13:09:13
Should it be ?
Did the Liberals used the same cookie-cutter platform before and after 9-11?  Broad strokes and philosophy may not change much from election to election, but ground truth can change a lot between ballots.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 12, 2019, 13:12:43
The National Post (https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/cbc-sues-the-conservative-party-over-copyright-journalists-moral-rights), but not the CBC is carrying a story about CBC suing the CPC.
They are now (https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-conservative-party-lawsuit-1.5319209) (~30 minutes before this post) ...
Quote
The CBC is taking the Conservative Party of Canada to court for using the broadcaster's footage in an online advertisement.

In a legal application to the Federal Court of Canada, the CBC served notice it wants the Conservative Party of Canada and its executive director, Dustin Van Vugt, to acknowledge the party "engaged in the unauthorized use of copyright-protected material."

The court documents filed Thursday listed The National co-host Rosemary Barton and parliamentary bureau reporter John Paul Tasker as applicants in the filing, along with the CBC.

In a statement Saturday, CBC News General Manager and Editor-In-Chief Jennifer McGuire and General Director of Information Programming for Radio-Canada Luce Julien said the court filing would be amended to remove the names of the journalists as applicants.

"To be clear, CBC/Radio Canada was the driver of this process, not the journalists.  CBC/Radio Canada named and added the journalists to the application because their images and content were used inappropriately.  In order to avoid any confusion about the role of Rosemary Barton and John Paul Tasker we intend to file an amendment to remove their names as applicants when the court opens on Tuesday," the statement said.

CBC-Radio Canada named the journalists in the lawsuit, according to the statement, "because their images and journalism were misused for partisan purposes negatively impacting perceptions of their independence." ...
Statement of claim here (https://www.scribd.com/document/429836680/Statement-of-Claim-T-1663-18) (19 pages).
:pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 12, 2019, 13:51:25
They are now (https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-conservative-party-lawsuit-1.5319209) (~30 minutes before this post) ...Statement of claim here (https://www.scribd.com/document/429836680/Statement-of-Claim-T-1663-18) (19 pages).
:pop:

I'm glad they're using our tax dollars to sue a national political party  :sarcasm:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 12, 2019, 14:14:51
I'm glad they're using our tax dollars to sue a national political party  :sarcasm:

I'm glad they're using our tax dollars to sue a national political party who illegally used copyrighted material  [: no sarcasm]
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 12, 2019, 14:29:35
I'm glad they're using our tax dollars to sue a national political party who allegedly illegally used copyrighted material  [: no sarcasm]

TFTFY  [/no sarcasm]
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 12, 2019, 15:02:06
Be a real shame if the ad was still circulating.........

https://twitter.com/HoCStaffer/status/1182822717650800645
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 12, 2019, 15:45:14
Interesting case ...

If I was Team Blue's lawyer, I'd say, "since Elections Canada says, 'If a news clip is relatively short and is not a substantial part of the audiovisual work from which it was taken, the broadcast of the news clip in a political ad would not infringe the copyright of the owner of the audiovisual work and would not require the permission of that owner to be broadcast. Accordingly, during the election period, broadcasters are not entitled to refuse to broadcast a political ad containing a news clip that is not a substantial part of the original broadcast,' (https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=abo&dir=bra%2Fbro%2F2019&document=index&lang=e&fbclid=IwAR2N2N79o07pmQ9k0qDCsyrq4YuhPboCkeKP5rOL4dyaWQeL-Ql8X-e8iII), and the bits of video/audio come from a variety of programs, this doesn't constitute use of a substantial part of ANY original broadcast."

Then again, if the CBC lets its clips be used by Team Red against Team Blue or Team Orange, would they then be labelled the "anyone but Liberal" network (more than they already are)?  Other broadcast material from other outlets also seems to be used in the same video -- wonder if they're lawyering up now?

:pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 12, 2019, 23:26:47
Latest poll tracker has the CPC with the seat advantage for the first time.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

But with billions in cuts in their recently released platform can they keep their lead?


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 13, 2019, 13:19:03
Latest poll tracker has the CPC with the seat advantage for the first time.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

But with billions in cuts in their recently released platform can they keep their lead?

Which cuts do you mean ?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 13, 2019, 14:38:02
Quote from: Remius

But with billions in cuts in their recently released platform can they keep their lead?

I read that in the voice of Morgan Freeman.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on October 13, 2019, 14:53:37
But with billions in cuts in their recently released platform can they keep their lead?

You're right. He's cutting:

Taxes on income under $47K
Carbon Tax
GST on Home Heating
Gov income tax revenues due to Green Home/Green Transit/Volunteer/Child Fitness/Maternity Benefits/Children's Arts
Gov revenues from Small business tax changes/income sprinkling to spouses
Sewage dumping into lakes/rivers by municpalities
Fees to enter national museums
Ability of government to hide by Cabinet Confidence to block RCMP investigations
The cap on privately sponsored refugees
Spending at Asian Infrastructure Bank
Foreign aid to wealthy countries
Corporate bailouts

But I mean, don't let the actual platform: https://cpc-platform.s3.ca-central-1.amazonaws.com/CPC_Platform_8.5x11_FINAL_EN_OCT11_web.pdf (https://cpc-platform.s3.ca-central-1.amazonaws.com/CPC_Platform_8.5x11_FINAL_EN_OCT11_web.pdf) and the full PBO costing: https://www.pbo-dpb.gc.ca/en/epc-estimates (https://www.pbo-dpb.gc.ca/en/epc-estimates)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 13, 2019, 14:59:19
Which cuts do you mean ?

Highlights are here.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-conservative-platform-unveiled-1.5318850
I read that in the voice of Morgan Freeman.

I said it in his voice.  ;)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 13, 2019, 15:11:04
Interesting that right now it's possible that whoever "wins" the election might have a minority so weak that it may need the support of not one but two other parties.

Right now 338Canada has the Libs/Cons at about 135-136 seats a piece. The Bloc/NDP are 30-32 each. So one major party propped up by a minor party may not be enough.

You very well could see a situation where government is formed by a major party (Lib/Cons) + a minor party (Bloc/NDP) + the rest (Greens/Max Bernier/independents).


This could be a very short-lived government....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 13, 2019, 15:17:55
Interesting that right now it's possible that whoever "wins" the election might have a minority so weak that it may need the support of not one but two other parties.

Right now 338Canada has the Libs/Cons at about 135-136 seats a piece. The Bloc/NDP are 30-32 each. So one major party propped up by a minor party may not be enough.

You very well could see a situation where government is formed by a major party (Lib/Cons) + a minor party (Bloc/NDP) + the rest (Greens/Max Bernier/independents).


This could be a very short-lived government....

You’ve just described BC. Sadly, the NDP-Green marriage of convenience still limps along after more than a year...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 13, 2019, 15:21:05
I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. The NDP has pretty much ruled out working with anyone. Explicitly the Torries, but implicit in their demands they have also ruled out the Libs. The Bloc is poison to both CPC and Libs. I envision a minority government made up of the two larger parties rather than one including the Bloc or NDP. If the Liberals are foolish enough to court the NDP, then expect more runaway deficits to fund the pharmacare, student debt, etc.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 13, 2019, 15:35:42
I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. The NDP has pretty much ruled out working with anyone. Explicitly the Torries, but implicit in their demands they have also ruled out the Libs. The Bloc is poison to both CPC and Libs. I envision a minority government made up of the two larger parties rather than one including the Bloc or NDP. If the Liberals are foolish enough to court the NDP, then expect more runaway deficits to fund the pharmacare, student debt, etc.

I would expect anything but the Libs and Cons working together but I guess we'll see. In fact if they do, I might have to recuse myself from living in this country anymore. Trudeau is the biggest threat to basic democracy / individual rights I could have ever imagined 4 years ago, if their main opponent starts working with them for political expediency we're ****ed. It will confirm there's not a shred of principle left in Ottawa, and I know we say that all the time, but this is different.

I know the NDP said that, but the Cons and Libs are hardly different at this point, if the NDP can force the Cons to take a tighter approach on the environment the NDP can call it a major victory... and everyone will forget or stop caring within a week that Mr. Singh said he wouldn't work with the Cons.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 13, 2019, 15:50:00
Individuals interested in retirement, pension and financial support for seniors may find this of interest,

Quote
Global News
October 12, 2019

Federal election 2019: What’s in it for seniors?
https://globalnews.ca/news/5989955/federal-election-2019-promises-seniors/
The average 65-year old today is expected to live to age 86, according to Statistics Canada.

That's pretty much on track with the Municipal Retirees Organization Ontario - MROO. ( MROO represents OMERS pensioners. )
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 13, 2019, 16:24:32
Quote from: Remius
Talking while you type is what actors do ;)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 13, 2019, 16:39:39
A four-pager from the U.S. Congressional Research Service on the upcoming Canadian election attached - here's the bit on NORAD from "Potential Implications" ...
Quote
In 2017, Prime Minister Trudeau and President Trump agreed to modernize and broaden the binational NORAD command, charged with defending U.S. and Canadian airspace and monitoring potential aerospace and maritime threats to North America. The Liberal government also adopted a new defense policythat will increase nominal defense spending by 73% over the next decade to acquire new equipment and capabilities. Nevertheless, it has been slow to modernize Canada’s fleet of aging fighter aircraft, leading some analysts to question whether Canada will be able to meet its NORAD commitments. Conservative leader Scheer has pledged to strengthen U.S.-Canadian defense ties by seeking to join the U.S. ballistic missile defense program and ensuring fighters selected through a new procurement process are interoperable with those of the United States.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 13, 2019, 19:38:37
A four-pager from the U.S. Congressional Research Service on the upcoming Canadian election attached - here's the bit on NORAD from "Potential Implications" ...

Pretty good analysis I must say.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 14, 2019, 12:58:49
I wanted to feel old so I checked out Reddits Canadian politics forums.Pretty interesting to read about how they see Conservatives.

Lots of the posters, I'd say majority, seem to think the Conservatives are going to ban gay marriage, make abortions illegal, cut spending to school and education (with a number thinking post secondary education should be free), ban immigrants from coming into Canada, force the catholic church on everyone and on and on.

It seems like they're so terrified of this image of what the conservatives would do that they would vote for a pineapple to keep the conservatives out.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: BeyondTheNow on October 14, 2019, 13:03:49
I wanted to feel old so I checked out Reddits Canadian politics forums.Pretty interesting to read about how they see Conservatives.

Lots of the posters, I'd say majority, seem to think the Conservatives are going to ban gay marriage, make abortions illegal, cut spending to school and education (with a number thinking post secondary education should be free), ban immigrants from coming into Canada, force the catholic church on everyone and on and on.

It seems like they're so terrified of this image of what the conservatives would do that they would vote for a pineapple to keep the conservatives out.

Wonder where they could possibly be getting such an outrageous idea... ::)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 14, 2019, 13:27:23
Do you think the Conservatives plan to ban gay marriage and make abortion illegal?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on October 14, 2019, 13:52:10
Do you think the Conservatives plan to ban gay marriage and make abortion illegal?

The short answer is "no".  Scheer has already come out (see what I did there) to state that he will respect the existing laws of the land and will vote against any motions by his MPs to reopen the abortion debate.  He did not, however, explicitly state that he will not allow any Conservative MPs to table motions to reopen the abortion debate or change the legality of gay marriages.

Hardcore Christian fundamentalist "conservatives" in the US have made significant headway in banning gay marriage and making abortion illegal.  Once again the left draws convenient parallels between Canadian and US politics.

Conversely, I'm surprised that the other parties, notably those who are pro-choice,  have not reminded Canadians about the now-defunct Canada Summer Jobs program abortion rights requirement (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberals-summer-jobs-program-changes-1.4934674).
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: BeyondTheNow on October 14, 2019, 13:53:01
Do you think the Conservatives plan to ban gay marriage and make abortion illegal?

Their “plans” as a collective party don’t really matter in the eyes of some younger voters. Instead, what they see, hear and read from individual candidates is what forms their idea of what direction the party is likely to (try and) take the nation.

If a candidate is openly vocal in a multitude of private and public settings about topics they view as rights and/or privileges for all CDN citizens, and their respective party seemingly supports/upholds their viewpoints without question or condemnation of any kind, then those same voters are essentially automatically going to assume that the party as a whole will be directly in line with the opinions expressed. (And, btw, the same goes for the Liberals et. al.)

Ultimately, many young voters (and some old voters too) aren’t interested in doing thorough and lengthy research on their own. They will form their opinions based solely on the most easily accessible excerpts of information flashed in front of them. And unfortunately, when candidates choose to blur the lines between their personal beliefs vs their party’s ideology and what is in the best interests of all Canadians, then everyone loses.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 14, 2019, 14:36:38
For what it is worth to the discussion, this Ipsos report of voting intentions caught my eye. 4 October 2019.
https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Significant-Gender-Gap-in-Voting-Intentions-Among-Younger-Canadians

Females age 18-34:
CPC 24%

Males age 18-34:
CPC 31%

May not determine who gets in.

But, it seems to indicate the CPC has a rather significant gender gap among young Canadian voters.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on October 14, 2019, 14:40:16
Their “plans” as a collective party don’t really matter in the eyes of some younger voters. Instead, what they see, hear and read from individual candidates is what forms their idea of what direction the party is likely to (try and) take the nation.

If a candidate is openly vocal in a multitude of private and public settings about topics they view as rights and/or privileges for all CDN citizens, and their respective party seemingly supports/upholds their viewpoints without question or condemnation of any kind, then those same voters are essentially automatically going to assume that the party as a whole will be directly in line with the opinions expressed. (And, btw, the same goes for the Liberals et. al.)

Ultimately, many young voters (and some old voters too) aren’t interested in doing thorough and lengthy research on their own. They will form their opinions based solely on the most easily accessible excerpts of information flashed in front of them. And unfortunately, when candidates choose to blur the lines between their personal beliefs vs their party’s ideology and what is in the best interests of all Canadians, then everyone loses.

Or when all you hear in the media is a full court press of evil Conservatives wanting to turn Canada into a Theocracy, then young people believe it.

Fortunately, that theory doesn't hold water when you realize the boogeyman Stephen Harper was in power for 9 years, (2 majorities) and had a Conservative Senate and yet not a single restriction in gay marriage, abortion or forced religion on anyone.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 14, 2019, 18:21:36
Their “plans” as a collective party don’t really matter in the eyes of some younger voters. Instead, what they see, hear and read from individual candidates is what forms their idea of what direction the party is likely to (try and) take the nation.



Ever insightful, miss Now :)

Mostly agree with you. No one researches enough anymore, if at all. We collectively read something, believe it, and launch an outraged tirade about it.

When it comes to young voters they seem extremely susceptible to group think and peer pressure these days. Seem to lack critical thinking. Reading it on Facebook or Twitter is a viable source.  I'm not sure how to articulate it very well but there's a zombie like behavior of following 'whats in'. Someone snorts a condom up their nose and guess what, it's trending. Video tape yourself getting out of a moving car and dancing on the road. Stuff like that. All kinds of stupid crap. It's like an overwhelming desire to be noticed or have some kind of impact or affect. The attention span seems to be pretty low and they move on to the next trending thing pretty quick.

The stuff being regurgitated as fact on reddit is crazy, but I guess mission accomplished for whoever is pushing the disinformation.

 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 14, 2019, 18:31:06
Kind of like "Ew, get away...."

Trudeau dodges question of Liberal-NDP coalition while Scheer rallies against

https://globalnews.ca/news/6030766/liberal-ndp-coalition-election/


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 14, 2019, 19:08:04
Kind of like "Ew, get away...."

Trudeau dodges question of Liberal-NDP coalition while Scheer rallies against

https://globalnews.ca/news/6030766/liberal-ndp-coalition-election/

I remember in 2008 when the discussion of a coalition came up. It’s something the Liberals will very much not want to be associated with. Granted my sample was a bunch of 19-22 troops overseas who couldn’t define ‘bicameral’ and whose ability to articulate their position was limited to putting their Velcro flags upside down on their uniform, but suffice to say it was a notion many were distinctly unhappy with.

Objectively it makes sense to the NDP to open the doors to the option. It makes sense to the LPC to keep those same doors firmly shut short of serious desperation.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: BeyondTheNow on October 14, 2019, 19:38:49


Ever insightful, miss Now :)

‘Not sure of the intent here, but as I rarely wade into politics threads as it is, in the future I’d appreciate no further “miss”, “mrs” or “ms” preceding any adjective, noun or verb you may think appropriate. I can’t seem to recall any similar-styled interactions with any political thread regulars in the recent past. (And I’m not about to go looking for them.) It ain’t cute.

Quote
...The stuff being regurgitated as fact on reddit is crazy, but I guess mission accomplished for whoever is pushing the disinformation.

Agreed—dis & misinformation alike.

...Stephen Harper was in power for 9 years, (2 majorities) and had a Conservative Senate and yet not a single restriction in gay marriage, abortion or forced religion on anyone.

True, although there’s still other reasons for certain groups to find fault with him...mainly the 13% reduction at one point from the defence budget at a time when we still needed those dollars. But that’s a different matter altogether...


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 14, 2019, 20:15:27
‘Not sure of the intent here, but as I rarely wade into politics threads as it is, in the future I’d appreciate no further “miss”, “mrs” or “ms” preceding any adjective, noun or verb you may think appropriate. I can’t seem to recall any similar-styled interactions with any political thread regulars in the recent past. (And I’m not about to go looking for them.) It ain’t cute.

I thought your post was very insightful and level headed as I do most if not all of your posts. I can only apologize and assure you I'll stick to specifically to your username in future.


Quote from: PuckChaser

Fortunately, that theory doesn't hold water when you realize the boogeyman Stephen Harper was in power for 9 years, (2 majorities) and had a Conservative Senate and yet not a single restriction in gay marriage, abortion or forced religion on anyone.

Lots of fear mongering. Not a lot of substance to the crying and fears. The common response when I ask for examples or sources seems to be "**ck you nazi", probably while they wear Che Guevara T-shirts.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: BeyondTheNow on October 14, 2019, 20:29:30
I thought your post was very insightful and level headed as I do most if not all of your posts. I can only apologize and assure you I'll stick to specifically to your username in future.

Thank you on all counts. I very much appreciate it.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 14, 2019, 20:56:14
Lots of fear mongering. Not a lot of substance to the crying and fears. The common response when I ask for examples or sources seems to be "**ck you nazi", probably while they wear Che Guevara T-shirts.

I saw someone on social media bring up the LPC plan to ban certain firearms.  It turned into a gang up asking the guy why he needed automatic weapons.  No one brought up automatic weapons except the mob.  The guy was quite level headed and attempted to argue his point.  He was called a nazi for it.

On another social media platform there is a fake news story about Trudeau and a rumoured affair that has gotten to the point of stupidity.  When it was shown that there was zero evidence it turned into a tin foil party with accusations of coverups and the media being shut down and payoffs to the individual in question. 

This is what it’s gotten to.  Sad.

I voted on Friday.  I picked the guy I liked best at the riding level.

The only consolation for me is that I will likely get my wish and we will have a minority.  This hopefully will purge the two current leaders of the big two. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 14, 2019, 21:19:52
What did you like about him?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 14, 2019, 22:09:05
Seems likeable. 

Is a good representative of the community.  Volunteers, is a former public servant and is now a teacher.  Has a family and seems to relate more to the community than the incumbent. 

I will be honest, my decision came down to the wire. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 14, 2019, 23:04:02
Quote from: Remius


I will be honest, my decision came down to the wire.

You didn't exactly come off that way, kind of seemed like your mind was set from the start. But I'm sure I'm wrong, glad you found someone you liked. Hopefully they don't support confiscation private property and don't make excuses for racist behavior etc..etc..
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 14, 2019, 23:28:05
Seems likeable. 

They say, "Politics is just show business for ugly people."

And in show business they say, "Likeability is 90% of the battle."  :)

Thankfully, in this country, no one has a right to tell you how to vote.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 15, 2019, 00:33:35
Seems likeable. 

Is a good representative of the community.  Volunteers, is a former public servant and is now a teacher.  Has a family and seems to relate more to the community than the incumbent. 

I will be honest, my decision came down to the wire.

Sooooo .... sounds like about a 100% better choice than any of the TEN (10) choices in my riding.

Seriously, ten people on a ballot does no one any favours. And none of them were superstars... or even average stars.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on October 15, 2019, 00:42:34
I remember in 2008 when the discussion of a coalition came up. It’s something the Liberals will very much not want to be associated with. Granted my sample was a bunch of 19-22 troops overseas who couldn’t define ‘bicameral’ and whose ability to articulate their position was limited to putting their Velcro flags upside down on their uniform, but suffice to say it was a notion many were distinctly unhappy with.

Objectively it makes sense to the NDP to open the doors to the option. It makes sense to the LPC to keep those same doors firmly shut short of serious desperation.

For the libs, being open to it will be admitting they do not think they can win a majority. Now here is a scary thought what if a vote split happens on both sides (right and left) and we end with a 4 way hung parliament?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 15, 2019, 06:33:57
For the libs, being open to it will be admitting they do not think they can win a majority. Now here is a scary thought what if a vote split happens on both sides (right and left) and we end with a 4 way hung parliament?

Not too worried about it. Any vote splitting on the right will be in favour of the Bloc. Left will be mainly Liberals / NDP. These are familiar dynamics, it’s just been a few years. I don’t fear vote splitting nor minorities. Greens will pick up a handful, Bernier maybe one. If JWR retains her seat she would probably support the LPC in most matters.

Whoever ends up heading up the minority will just need to play a weird game that we’ve been lacking for quite some time, called ‘building concensus’. We could use a couple minority governments, it might humble up some knuckleheads.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 15, 2019, 09:38:50
Seriously, ten people on a ballot does no one any favours. And none of them were superstars... or even average stars.
My riding has five;  one is a black hole (or some kind of 'hole'), rather than even an average star.    ::)


This just registered:
Quote
What did you like about him?
Seems likeable.
:rofl:
Flashbacks to some blogger that 1 or 2 people cite routinely, who 'provides insight...because he's insightful.' 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 15, 2019, 09:56:46
Hopefully they don't support confiscation private property and don't make excuses for racist behavior etc..etc..

Regarding race,

Quote
Even before #brownface, the 2019 federal election was always about race

A sitting prime minister who just admitted to multiple incidents of brownface, despite touting Canada’s multiculturalism and diversity on the world stage.

A Conservative leader whose candidate base includes those who align with racist and homophobic perspectives, and whom he refuses to denounce or remove.

A National Observer survey into the make up of candidates across the five political parties found that, other than the NDP, the remaining parties are not representative of Canada’s visible minority population — black, Indigenous or people of colour — which Statistics Canada finds amounts to at least 25 per cent.

The NDP clears this bar, as around 32 per cent of the NDP’s 310 candidates are visible minorities, 20 of whom are Indigenous and 22 who are Black Canadians.

Here's how the rest of the parties fare, at present, based on the candidates that have been designated on the website of each party:

•Over 20 per cent of the Liberal Party’s 316 candidates are visible minorities (14 Indigenous, 5 Black).

•Almost 18 per cent of the Conservative Party’s 337 candidates are visible minorities. The Tories have the lowest number of Indigenous (4) and Black (2).

•The Green Party is lagging behind in this regard with approximately 12 percent of their 325 candidates being not white (8 Indigenous, 5 Black).

•Of the 317 candidates nominated by the People’s Party of Canada, some 14 percent appear to be Black, Indigenous or people of colour. (Note that some 30 PPC candidates have no online presence or visibility and couldn’t be included in this calculation).
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2019/09/19/analysis/even-brownface-2019-federal-election-was-always-about-race

And gender,

Quote
NDP, 49 percent women candidates

Green, 47 percent women/non-binary/trans candidates

Liberals, 39 percent women candidates

Conservatives, 32 percent women candidates
https://www.chatelaine.com/living/politics/women-candidates-canada-election-2019/








Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 15, 2019, 11:03:38
Regarding race, And gender,

Are we really at the point where the racial and/or gender make up of parties and candidates matters ? 

We are getting closer and closer to idiocracy every day...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 15, 2019, 11:13:15
Are we really at the point where the racial and/or gender make up of parties and candidates matters ? 

Maybe to some,

Hopefully they don't support confiscation private property and don't make excuses for racist behavior etc..etc..
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 15, 2019, 12:16:27
A couple interesting tweets from Warren Kinsella:

Quote
Warren Kinsella
‏Verified account @kinsellawarren
2 hours ago

Brexit, Trump victories etc. all make clear that a significant segment of committed conservative vote regularly hides from pollsters/media because they don’t want to be called racist, etc. Then they show up on E Day. #elxn43 #cdnpoli
83 replies 151 retweets 544 likes


Quote

Warren Kinsella
‏Verified account @kinsellawarren
Oct 14

If voting #NDP gets you #LPC government, what’s the point of voting #NDP? #elxn43 #cdnpoli

131 replies 563 retweets 1,464 likes

 Link (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cdnpoli?src=hash&lang=en)


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Furniture on October 15, 2019, 12:20:11
Are we really at the point where the racial and/or gender make up of parties and candidates matters ? 

We are getting closer and closer to idiocracy every day...

Not just racial minorities as a general count, but looking into whether they are the correct racial minority or not. Notice they specified how many were of black, and indigenous ancestry apart from the percentage of minorities.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 15, 2019, 12:31:58
Calculatedpolitics has Libs reclaiming most seats, Cons still holding greater vote share and the BQ-NDP revving up.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 15, 2019, 13:14:05
Maybe to some,

Racist behavior is quite different from race metrics.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on October 15, 2019, 13:20:17
Calculatedpolitics has Libs reclaiming most seats, Cons still holding greater vote share and the BQ-NDP revving up.

This could be an incredibly interesting result. I don't recall in modern history where a party hasn't won more seats but had a larger share of the popular vote. I wonder if the left will be crying for the end of first past the post if they get their way?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 15, 2019, 13:35:22
It would be especially odd if a second orange crush of the Liberals occurs, this time  outside of Quebec. Another good one would be what if Singh gets more seats than Trudeau, enough to form and head a coalition ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 15, 2019, 14:36:28
I don't understand why this thing is as close as it seems.  Four years ago people couldn't stand the CPC and Harper and all ran to the Liberals.  Now it's neck and neck with the Liberals and Harper 2.0.  What's wrong with voters?  They don't seem to know what the hell they want.  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 15, 2019, 14:41:35
I picked the guy I liked best at the riding level.

They say all politics is local.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 15, 2019, 14:43:17
It's a sign that the country is doing so well that nobody can decide what a key election issue might be that every Canadian would vote one way or the other about it.

Free trade, deficits and health care used to mean something big in elections. Now it's what's your privilege to guilt ratio, a cheque for you, you and you, etc.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 15, 2019, 14:45:45
I don't understand why this thing is as close as it seems.  Four years ago people couldn't stand the CPC and Harper and all ran to the Liberals.  Now it's neck and neck with the Liberals and Harper 2.0.  What's wrong with voters?  They don't seem to know what the hell they want.  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.

I hypothesize that myself and many others were duped by Trudeau and bought into the "boogey man" tales about Harper.  I am very regretful about that vote I cast in 2015 and won’t make that mistake ever again.  I miss Harper. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 15, 2019, 14:46:30
I don't understand why this thing is as close as it seems.  Four years ago people couldn't stand the CPC and Harper and all ran to the Liberals.  Now it's neck and neck with the Liberals and Harper 2.0.  What's wrong with voters?  They don't seem to know what the hell they want.  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.

Or maybe they know exactly what they don't want.

The Harper gvt suffered from fatigue after 10 years and people wanted change.

Things they didn't want: Hypocrisy, racist acts, different rules for the leader than anyone else, scandals, law breaking and more importantly they wanted someone who was going to do what he said he would do.  A few things could be forgiven but now contrast that to those third and fourth place parties and they start to look good.

If you are a Quebecer maybe they think they can influence more at the federal level with a strong bloc in a minority situation with either liberals or the CPC.  Same with the NDP.  Universal healthcare came about that way.

if you don't understand why it is this close then you haven't been paying attention.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 15, 2019, 16:15:43
It's a sign that the country is doing so well that nobody can decide what a key election issue might be that every Canadian would vote one way or the other about it.

Our union and pensioner association follow a simple philosophy in supporting candidates – they support those who support us. Regardless of party affiliation or political leanings.



Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 15, 2019, 16:27:50
I hypothesize that myself and many others were duped by Trudeau and bought into the "boogey man" tales about Harper.
... combined with a dose of "a lot of PM's get old to the electorate, no matter what team jersey they wear, after a certain amount of time, even if they weren't all that bad."

Meanwhile, on the extreme left, the International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI) seems to think the NDP's promising to spend too much on the military (https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/10/14/ndpw-o14.html) ...
Quote
... The rightwing character of the NDP is exemplified by the sections of its federal election platform, “A New Deal for People,” that outline its proposals for the military and foreign policy.

While chock full of pseudo-progressive rhetoric about “human rights,” making Canada a “force for peace,” and promoting “gender equality,” the platform champions a pro-war, militarist agenda. It advocates spending tens of billions of dollars on equipping Canada’s military with new battleships, fighter jets and other high-tech weaponry, paving the way to turn workers and young people into cannon fodder for Canadian imperialism in foreign wars and future great-power conflicts.

No less significantly, the NDP platform voices not a word of criticism of Canada’s ever-increasing integration, under the 2006-15 Harper Conservatives and now the Trudeau Liberal government, in US military-strategic offensives around the world. This includes Canada’s participation in the war build-up against China and the strategic encirclement of Russia.

Tellingly, while the NDP platform is silent on these and other Canadian foreign deployments, it justifies support for squandering tens of billions on new weapons of war by invoking Ottawa’s “international commitments” along with “national defense.” ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 15, 2019, 17:16:09
The “rightwing” character of the NDP?

Wow!
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MilEME09 on October 15, 2019, 17:34:20
The “rightwing” character of the NDP?

Wow!

Atleast the NDP isn't 100% on the crack pipe like these people are, the NDP's platform is very vague on defense, for good reason probably. In all honesty I'd rather give someone new a chance then expect a different result from the same two lemons we always get.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 15, 2019, 17:40:27
The “rightwing” character of the NDP?

Wow!

Someone has been drinking too much cool-aid.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 15, 2019, 18:22:48
Are we really at the point where the racial and/or gender make up of parties and candidates matters ? 

I just know what I read in the papers,

Quote
The Canadian Press
Global News
https://globalnews.ca/news/6027466/canada-election-diversity-of-candidates/



Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 15, 2019, 19:03:54
Someone has been drinking too much cool-aid.
Keep in mind just how left wing the Socialist Equality Party, which these guys are the info-machine for, say they are ...
Quote
... The program of the Socialist Equality Party starts not with what capitalism can “afford,” but with what the working class requires. Our program is not tailored to what small-minded opportunists and pragmatists may consider immediately “achievable.” What can or cannot be achieved, in any given situation, is determined in struggle. Those not prepared to fight will never win anything.

The SEP insists that everyone has basic social rights, necessary for life in a complex modern society. We demand that everyone have access to a job with a livable income, that health care and education must be provided as a social right. Young people have the right to a future, and we demand the abolition of student debt. We call for the immediate withdrawal of all US troops from wherever they are stationed abroad, and an end to the drive by the ruling class to restructure the world in its interests. We call for the defense of democratic rights, and the abolition of the police-state infrastructure built up under both Bush and Obama.

The demands raised by the SEP are not separate from the goal of socialist revolution. Rather, each demand by its very nature raises a challenge to the material interests of the corporate aristocrats. As they encounter the resistance of corporations and the capitalist state to their legitimate demands, working people will see ever more clearly the need for the revolutionary transformation of society. The fight for these demands strengthens the working class, unifies its disparate struggles, and in each case poses the necessity of taking political power and establishing socialism in the United States, as part of the socialist reorganization of the world economy ...
More here (https://socialequality.com/about/) if you want to check out the rest of what sounds a lot like the old Cold War Communist Party narrative.  If they really believe what they say, I can see why the NDP isn't quite socialist enough for their taste. In his day, even Jack Layton was dinged by different splinters about supporting the troops TOO much (https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php?topic=88283.0).
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 15, 2019, 20:20:27
Quote from: stellarpanther
  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.

It seems what you're really saying is you think it's stupid for someone to vote for anyone other than the Liberals.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 15, 2019, 20:35:57
I don't understand why this thing is as close as it seems.  Four years ago people couldn't stand the CPC and Harper and all ran to the Liberals.  Now it's neck and neck with the Liberals and Harper 2.0.  What's wrong with voters?  They don't seem to know what the hell they want.  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.

I think nobody expected both of the two main contenders to suck this profoundly.

Recognize that with regards to the Bloc, Quebecers don’t see their votes as at all wasted. The Bloc puts a potentially significant number of MPs in the House of Commons. Conceivably they could offer a balance of power. That allows the province to punch well above its weight of seat counts align. The Bloc could extract considerable concessions for propping up a minority.

With current seat projections, we face a very real possibility of either a Liberal or Conservative minority, where either the Bloc or the NDP could each potentially hold enough seats to prop up the minority.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 15, 2019, 21:56:46

Looks like Trudeau was wearing a bullet proof vest at a campaign stop in Mississauga (no one told him how safe it really is).

Sounds like PMO staffers (allegedly) told the RCMP what to bring, what to wear and how to wear it.
Guess they wanted to ramp up some kind of narrative, wonder what that could be.

Quote
RCMP source says ‘security risk’ against Trudeau was contrived by PMO staffers

A retired officer of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who remains in frequent communication with senior figures inside the federal agency, is telling The Chronicle that the widely publicized ‘security threat’ against Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Saturday night in Mississauga was “largely contrived by political staffers” inside the PMO.

Hoping to elicit sympathy in the national political discourse, senior PMO staffers actively instructed the RCMP on which equipment and weaponry to have present, which uniforms protective officers would wear, and which security precautions would be taken at the private invitation-only Liberal Party event.


https://buffalochronicle.com/2019/10/15/rcmp-source-says-security-risk-against-trudeau-was-contrived-by-pmo-staffers/


(https://i2.wp.com/buffalochronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/920x920-1.jpg?zoom=3&resize=320%2C179&ssl=1)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 15, 2019, 22:15:41
https://buffalochronicle.com/2019/10/15/rcmp-source-says-security-risk-against-trudeau-was-contrived-by-pmo-staffers/

Regarding the source. Media Bias / Fact Check had this to say,
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-buffalo-chronicle/

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 15, 2019, 22:27:10
https://buffalochronicle.com/2019/10/15/rcmp-source-says-security-risk-against-trudeau-was-contrived-by-pmo-staffers/
Have we seen the injunction against the Globe & Mail the Buffalo Chronicle helped spread the word about earlier in the election cycle (https://buffalochronicle.com/2019/10/07/trudeau-is-rumored-to-be-in-talks-with-an-accusor-to-suppress-an-explosive-sex-scandal-that-may-force-him-from-office/)?  I'll wait ...  Meanwhile, while titillating, I'll wait for something firmer to confirm.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 15, 2019, 22:41:04
Looks like Trudeau was wearing a bullet proof vest at a campaign stop in Mississauga (no one told him how safe it really is).

Sounds like PMO staffers (allegedly) told the RCMP what to bring, what to wear and how to wear it.
Guess they wanted to ramp up some kind of narrative, wonder what that could be.
 

https://buffalochronicle.com/2019/10/15/rcmp-source-says-security-risk-against-trudeau-was-contrived-by-pmo-staffers/


(https://i2.wp.com/buffalochronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/920x920-1.jpg?zoom=3&resize=320%2C179&ssl=1)

First off that isn’t how it works.

Second, Buffalo Chronicle is a terrible source for real news.  There is the injunction story, the affair story and the Trudeau getting divorced story.  This is making some rounds on social media.  None corroborated at all. 

You would think that with all the crap Trudeau has actually done that people would not have to resort to fake stories.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 15, 2019, 22:41:31
CBC's take

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5319953


Bullet proof vest.
RCMP "heavily armed tactical team in full sight" surrounding the PM.

Whats the play here?
Radical Conservatives are a threat to the PM?
We need to ban assault weapons because they're all over the place?
Credible but secret threat but brave Trudeau puts his life at risk to talk to the good people of Mississauga?

Must have been some threat, or some next level show business.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 15, 2019, 22:44:32
Quote from: Remius

First off that isn’t how it works.


Trudeau has a habit of doing whatever he wants.

It wouldn't be the first time he's put on a show.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 15, 2019, 22:52:24
Do you seriously think that the RCMP protective detail and tactical squad would allow itself to be a political prop?

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 15, 2019, 22:53:52
Any guess what it means that record numbers of people are voting in the advanced polls and who does this usually benefit?

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 15, 2019, 22:57:43
Any guess what it means that record numbers of people are voting in the advanced polls and who does this usually benefit?

Could be anything.  Any guess is as good as another.

Maybe people were fed up with Trudeau’s antics.

Maybe people were scared he might not get re elected

Maybe people preferred the convenience of voting over a long weekend

We likely won’t know until the results are in.

I voted ahead of time to avoid the Election Day rush.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 15, 2019, 23:13:21
Do you seriously think that the RCMP protective detail and tactical squad would allow itself to be a political prop?

Maybe. Probably not.

I had to put on a dog and pony show for some NDP and green party MP's.  I said no. Wanna guess how that turned out?  ;D

But forgetting that source in the story then, don't you think the situation is a little weird? Doesn't it look like it can be a little bit on the theatrical side to you?

Trudeau's first concern was his family and the crowd. So he told his wife not to come, put on a bullet proof vest, then met the crowd....

Sorry but acting is the PM's thing and they're getting desperate. Im just surprised no one asked him how quantum computers worked.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 15, 2019, 23:30:13
Maybe. Probably not.

I had to put on a dog and pony show for some NDP and green party MP's.  I said no. Wanna guess how that turned out?  ;D

But forgetting that source in the story then, don't you think the situation is a little weird? Doesn't it look like it can be a little bit on the theatrical side to you?

Trudeau's first concern was his family and the crowd. So he told his wife not to come, put on a bullet proof vest, then met the crowd....

Sorry but acting is the PM's thing and they're getting desperate. Im just surprised no one asked him how quantum computers worked.

I don’t think it is weird that the PM gets threats.  It probably happens daily. 

It isn’t impossible that maybe he received a credible threat that the RCMP assessed and took steps to have a show of force.

Given the crap I have seen on social media I’m not shocked.  And to be honest this is election is so polarized I would have no doubt that some kook would try something or threaten to.

We’ve had a gunman rush parliament hill looking for the PM.
We’ve had a guy break into the PM’s residence. 
we’ve had people throw pies at politicians.

Not everything is a conspiracy.  Sometimes the RCMP, tasked with the protection of The PM does its job based on the info it has.  And maybe they weren’t taking any chances.  Maybe they did a proper threat assessment and took those steps.  From the limited contact I have had with those guys, they don’t mess around and they take their jobs seriously.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 15, 2019, 23:43:43
Some pretty sound counter points.

Guess I figured if the PMO would try to intimidate and bully the attorney general into doing what the PMO wanted anything was possible.
But maybe it wasn't a conspiracy, this time :)

I'm just pretty pumped that it looks like I probably won't have my property confiscated.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 15, 2019, 23:51:21

I'm just pretty pumped that it looks like I probably won't have my property confiscated.

Rightfully so.  I’ve argued with people that that particular platform piece is a legit reason for those affected to not vote liberal. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 15, 2019, 23:53:13
I don’t think it is weird that the PM gets threats.  It probably happens daily. 

It isn’t impossible that maybe he received a credible threat that the RCMP assessed and took steps to have a show of force.

Given the crap I have seen on social media I’m not shocked.  And to be honest this is election is so polarized I would have no doubt that some kook would try something or threaten to.

We’ve had a gunman rush parliament hill looking for the PM.
We’ve had a guy break into the PM’s residence. 
we’ve had people throw pies at politicians.

Not everything is a conspiracy.  Sometimes the RCMP, tasked with the protection of The PM does its job based on the info it has.  And maybe they weren’t taking any chances.  Maybe they did a proper threat assessment and took those steps.  From the limited contact I have had with those guys, they don’t mess around and they take their jobs seriously.

Yup. This basically summed it up right there. The PM and staffers decides where he’s going and what he’s doing. The RCMP don’t get a veto; they simply have the responsibility of providing the protection, whatever that entails. Politics don’t enter that particular equation. Threats to the safety of the PM and some other government/senior officials are a constant reality.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 16, 2019, 00:09:32
Does the PMO have any influence in the RCMP dress state, covert/overt nature of the protection detail?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 16, 2019, 06:50:24
Does the PMO have any influence in the RCMP dress state, covert/overt nature of the protection detail?

I’m not qualified to say with confidence a 100% hard no, but everything I’ve learned about this crew convinces me strongly that operational decisions like that are 100% a protective function. The only times I’ve seen or heard of influence wielded in a protective setting is for the protectee pushing for a lower, less visible protective posture than the protective crew might want; politicians and other protected generally want security to be quite low key. Bodyguard details are a pain in the *** for the principal. A political flunkie is definitely NOT able to whistle up a tactical team to assume a posture that the commander of the police element thinks is inappropriately overt or forceful. Certainly not in the federal realm.

I do know the PMPD guys and girls are working their asses off. I bet they can’t wait for this to be over.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Eaglelord17 on October 16, 2019, 07:06:56
I don't understand why this thing is as close as it seems.  Four years ago people couldn't stand the CPC and Harper and all ran to the Liberals.  Now it's neck and neck with the Liberals and Harper 2.0.  What's wrong with voters?  They don't seem to know what the hell they want.  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.

Nothings wrong with the voters. I would argue the main reason the 2015 election went the way it did wasn't even because it was Harper vs. Trudeau, rather because it was pot legalization vs not legalization. The youth vote came out to support the Liberals last time around. Now that they have what they wanted as long as marijuana isn't made into a election issue again, I predict they really don't care enough to vote again.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 16, 2019, 08:54:52
Brihard, in no way second guessing PMPD’s reactive response to PM’s decision, but it is indeed interesting that the highest threat the PM has experienced thus far on the campaign (requiring BV and visible tac team presence) was at an attendance-vetted LPC fundraising event, vice truly public event...

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Furniture on October 16, 2019, 09:55:52
Brihard, in no way second guessing PMPD’s reactive response to PM’s decision, but it is indeed interesting that the highest threat the PM has experienced thus far on the campaign (requiring BV and visible tac team presence) was at an attendance-vetted LPC fundraising event, vice truly public event...

Regards
G2G

Another interesting question; If there threat was so credible that the PM required almost "visit to a Afghanistan FOB" level protection, why wasn't the event cancelled in the interest of the safety of the people in attendance?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 16, 2019, 10:16:28
Another interesting question; If there threat was so credible that the PM required almost "visit to a Afghanistan FOB" level protection, why wasn't the event cancelled in the interest of the safety of the people in attendance?

Now that would have most likely been the campaign team/PMO's call.  They made a decision to proceed, the RCMP makes security recommendations and acts accordingly.

Was the threat specific?  or general?  We don't know.   Sounds like it was very specific, enough to warrant those security measures.

If you cancel you might be playing into the hands of the guy/girl/group making the threats.  If you are confident about the security arrangements you take the risk and don't let yourself be bullied.  I guess.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 16, 2019, 10:51:41
I’m not qualified to say with confidence a 100% hard no, but everything I’ve learned about this crew convinces me strongly that operational decisions like that are 100% a protective function.

Fair enough. My initial posts were probably a little too scathing and lowered the bar in the politics thread. Sorry about that all. Let me try and rephrase a little.


I'm sure the RCMP detail is professional and not behaving in an untoward or biased manner.


That said I don't think anyone is beyond question though when it comes to this stuff, especially with our current government, and their past behavior.
 
You mentioned a political flunkie. I feel like the PMO rate a little bit higher than political flunkies. They appear to have felt very confident intimidating, bullying and harassing the attorney general of Canada to do what they wanted (and as we know, found guilty of ethics violations)  I feel like the attorney general of Canada is a bigger fish to boss around than a close protection team leader or detail commander.
At the end of the day would they say no to the prime minister or prime ministers office if they really wanted something to go a certain way? Purely an un-informed opinion but I have my doubts.

In any case the situation still seems strange.
Police in full tactical gear, apparent rolled up ballistic shields, backpacks full of weapons. For an invite only, vetted LPC event.

Given Trudeau's flair for drama, assault weapon narrative and the numbers in the polls I don't think it's weird to be a little suspicious of the whole incident and ask questions.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 16, 2019, 11:41:40
So, the poll tracker is not updated yet today but we are seeing some interesting stuff.

I read somewhere that a strong NDP benefits the CPC.  The magic number the CPC wants to see is 17% and the NDP has crossed that.  That could mean majority territory for the CPC.

I still think it will be a minority  government.  But which on is still up in the air.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 16, 2019, 11:54:16
Second, Buffalo Chronicle is a terrible source for real news. 

Never heard of it until it was posted into this discussion.

Quote
Oct 15, 2019
Facebook not budging on removing widely spread fabricated Trudeau hit pieces
https://ipolitics.ca/2019/10/15/facebook-not-budging-on-removing-widely-spread-fabricated-trudeau-hit-pieces/
On the same day that another fabricated hit piece on Justin Trudeau was circulated by thousands on Facebook, company executives confirmed the social media platform wouldn’t ban one of the top outlets responsible for fake Canadian political news.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 16, 2019, 13:16:02
Trudeau concedes Tories could win, accuses them of running 'dirtiest' campaign ever

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau today conceded the Conservatives could win Monday's election — and accused the party of winning support by running one of the "dirtiest, nastiest" election campaigns in Canadian history.

Surrounded by 29 Quebec candidates at an event at Montreal's Botanical Garden Wednesday, Trudeau appealed to Quebecers to support his party and elect a progressive government rather than a "progressive opposition." It's a pitch he's been making a lot lately — a bid to beat down surging support for the NDP and Bloc Québécois by arguing that voting for those parties could help elect a Conservative government.

Asked about a report in The Globe and Mail about the Manning Centre refusing to disclose the source of donations to third parties for attack ads on the Liberals, Trudeau took the opportunity to take aim at Conservative tactics in the campaign.

Link: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-liberal-accuses-conservatives-dirty-campaign-1.5322439
_____________________

Oh the irony! Wait maybe hypocrisy ?  Perhaps both ? lol
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 16, 2019, 13:45:36
Quote from: Halifax Tar


Oh the irony! Wait maybe hypocrisy ?  Perhaps both ? lol

People went berserk over this guys socks. For him to blow that kind of fanaticism is really impressive.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 16, 2019, 14:30:52
‘Dirtiest, nastiest’ campaign from a guy half of Canadians still probably couldn’t pick out of a police line-up?  :not-again:

No, this is an accumulated, self-inflicted wound.


Regards

G2G
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: RangerRay on October 16, 2019, 14:43:07
Trudeau concedes Tories could win, accuses them of running 'dirtiest' campaign ever

Pot, kettle, black.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Furniture on October 16, 2019, 15:00:36
Now that would have most likely been the campaign team/PMO's call.  They made a decision to proceed, the RCMP makes security recommendations and acts accordingly.

Was the threat specific?  or general?  We don't know.   Sounds like it was very specific, enough to warrant those security measures.

If you cancel you might be playing into the hands of the guy/girl/group making the threats.  If you are confident about the security arrangements you take the risk and don't let yourself be bullied.  I guess.

I suppose my issue stems from the PM sending his family away because there was a threat, but the public not knowing about the threat. I get not releasing specifics, but I think it's wrong to place the public at risk just to make a "show of force".
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 16, 2019, 15:41:47
I suppose my issue stems from the PM sending his family away because there was a threat, but the public not knowing about the threat. I get not releasing specifics, but I think it's wrong to place the public at risk just to make a "show of force".

We also don't have the details.  What if the threat was "If I see you and your wife I'll..." or was it "If I can't get to you I can get to her or your kids at the event"

We don't have all the facts.  Maybe the RCMP recommended that they minimise the threat so they could focus on just him rather that two people.  These types of protective details in public spaces are complex.

Maybe the threat came from someone or some group that the RCMP are aware of already.

None of this is in a vacuum. 

But like everyone else not in though, I don't know what happened or how they decided to go ahead. We don't really know if there was a risk to the public.  The PM is a high risk individual.  More so for this one that has garnered celebrity status.  There will always be a risk when he goes out in public. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 16, 2019, 16:32:36
Some pretty sound counter points.

Guess I figured if the PMO would try to intimidate and bully the attorney general into doing what the PMO wanted anything was possible.
But maybe it wasn't a conspiracy, this time :)

I'm just pretty pumped that it looks like I probably won't have my property confiscated.

Hey Jarnhamar, I am in the process of buying properties in the USA for rental investments.

If for whatever reason this ban does come in to affect. I will take one of my places off the market and use it to legally store my firearms south of the border.

Let me know if you need to rent a room.

We also don't have the details.  What if the threat was "If I see you and your wife I'll..." or was it "If I can't get to you I can get to her or your kids at the event"

We don't have all the facts.  Maybe the RCMP recommended that they minimise the threat so they could focus on just him rather that two people.  These types of protective details in public spaces are complex.

Maybe the threat came from someone or some group that the RCMP are aware of already.

None of this is in a vacuum. 

But like everyone else not in though, I don't know what happened or how they decided to go ahead. We don't really know if there was a risk to the public.  The PM is a high risk individual.  More so for this one that has garnered celebrity status.  There will always be a risk when he goes out in public. 


I have to agree with you, I have no issue with the PM protecting himself and his family and I doubt this is a conspiracy.  As much as I dislike his platform, some of his antics etc he is still our leader and deserves our protection as such, especially his family.

If I was in his position, I'd possibly do the same.. someone coming to kill me.. even without threats to my family.. get them the hell away. If it turns out to be credible or does happen or what not, why risk the family? Nothing is clean these days.

Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 16, 2019, 16:39:08
This was posted a short time ago on Twitter from Obama.  I'm curious to see if this will help Trudeau.  Elections Canada when asked has already said this is not interfer

I was proud to work with Justin Trudeau as President. He's a hard-working, effective leader who takes on big issues like climate change. The world needs his progressive leadership now, and I hope our neighbors to the north support him for another term.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 16, 2019, 16:39:20
I sincerely think United States of America’s President Obama is an intelligent man who did much good during his time in office. The guy that he’s suddenly endorsing in the last days of a foreign election, I can’t say the same: https://election.ctvnews.ca/mobile/obama-weighs-in-on-canada-s-federal-election-backs-trudeau-1.4641296
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 16, 2019, 17:03:21
Usual caveats about info-machine statements, but this is what the CBC is now saying about their Team Blue litigation (https://cbc.radio-canada.ca/en/media-centre/defending-our-journalism) - and yes, other parties have been dinged in the past ...
Quote
... During the 2015 election campaign, several parties used CBC/Radio-Canada content, including footage of our journalists, in partisan advertising. We sent cease and desist letters to the Liberal Party and the NDP and they complied. When the Conservative Party and the Broadbent Institute* refused to comply with requests that they remove the material, we launched legal action against both organizations, on behalf of CBC/Radio-Canada and the specific journalists affected. Both organizations ultimately settled the court action by agreeing to remove the unauthorized material. Their settlement came after the ads had served their intended purpose and before the Court had issued its decision. Without a court ruling this left the door open to a repeat of that behaviour in this election ...
Lots more tea leaves to read @ link.

So, it's #TheySueTeamBlueAgain or #GoodForTheGooseWasGoodForTheGander - your pick  ;D

* - I colour these guys (https://www.broadbentinstitute.ca/about) orange mainly because Broadbent used to be captain of Team Orange in a previous life (https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/john-edward-broadbent).  Some might say they're orange, some might say red, but they sure ain't blue.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: QV on October 16, 2019, 17:11:51
I sincerely think United States of America’s President Obama is an intelligent man who did much good during his time in office. The guy that he’s suddenly endorsing in the last days of a foreign election, I can’t say the same: https://election.ctvnews.ca/mobile/obama-weighs-in-on-canada-s-federal-election-backs-trudeau-1.4641296

The very fact he is endorsing someone like Trudeau only confirms my thoughts on him, his presidency, and his former hangers on.  But, yes I agree that he is intelligent.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 16, 2019, 17:17:26
This was posted a short time ago on Twitter from Obama.  I'm curious to see if this will help Trudeau.  Elections Canada when asked has already said this is not interfer

I was proud to work with Justin Trudeau as President. He's a hard-working, effective leader who takes on big issues like climate change. The world needs his progressive leadership now, and I hope our neighbors to the north support him for another term.
Aaaaaaaaaand it didn't take The Beaverton long ...
"Update: Canadians lucky US Presidential endorsement of Canadian political leader didn’t involve drone strikes" (https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/update-canadians-lucky-us-presidential-endorsement-of-canadian-political-leader-didnt-involve-drone-strikes/?fbclid=IwAR3lGoyo1S8ALK2hq6OrFZXqhZZaU2j8UFxRtpe4vyUc7wowG73FsWPqzHs)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 16, 2019, 17:35:12
Aaaaaaaaaand it didn't take The Beaverton long ...
"Update: Canadians lucky US Presidential endorsement of Canadian political leader didn’t involve drone strikes" (https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/update-canadians-lucky-us-presidential-endorsement-of-canadian-political-leader-didnt-involve-drone-strikes/?fbclid=IwAR3lGoyo1S8ALK2hq6OrFZXqhZZaU2j8UFxRtpe4vyUc7wowG73FsWPqzHs)

I can't believe I never heard of that site before... There's some funny stuff in there especially this one.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/putin-impressed-canadian-voters-dont-need-help-spreading-disinformation/


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 16, 2019, 17:36:02
And here is one of the “hangers on” adding his support:

https://twitter.com/BruceAHeyman/status/1184532114831740928?s=20
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 16, 2019, 17:38:28
We were talking about the election at work last night, and we hit upon a few demographics that seem to be overlooked by the analysts:

1. youth voters - now that MJ has been approved, is there anything on the table that will compel them to come out like they did last time?

2. swing voters - those that voted for JT in 2015, but may now be more likely to return to their traditional patterns;

3. blue liberals/red torries - those that find the prospect of a LPC - NDP minority too far left for their tastes; and

4. quiet conservatives - voters who are reluctant to reveal their allegiance, who are fearful of professional repercussions if they do so. The same "basket of deplorables" that came out in support of DT and turned the polls upside down.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 16, 2019, 17:55:33
I can't believe I never heard of that site before... There's some funny stuff in there especially this one.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/putin-impressed-canadian-voters-dont-need-help-spreading-disinformation/

This one is pretty good too.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/09/trudeau-wondering-how-long-until-its-cool-for-him-to-do-blackface-again/



Just great to see Obama in the news. We're just missing Clinton.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 16, 2019, 18:12:19
1. youth voters - now that MJ has been approved, is there anything on the table that will compel them to come out like they did last time?

According to Ipsos, of those "completely certain to vote", males 55+ take the lead at 82%.

Males 18-34 at 43% and females 18-34 at 48%.

Ipsos notes a "Significant Gender Gap in Voting Intentions Among Younger Canadians" as to which party they will be voting for,

Females 18-34 LPC 35%, NDP 27%, CPC 24%.

Males 18-34 LPC 35%, CPC 31%, NDP 16%
https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Significant-Gender-Gap-in-Voting-Intentions-Among-Younger-Canadians

Edit to add

Dear young people, "Don't Vote" ( satire ).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0e9guhV35o


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 16, 2019, 18:28:03
Latest poll tracker is out and the Liberals see major drop in seat projection. 

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

Note the NDP goes up almost a point per day.  If the trend continues they could be up 5 more points before the election is decided.  Might not translate to seats but it may split the vote even more in favour of the CPC.


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 16, 2019, 18:39:05
Quote from: ModlrMike


4. quiet conservatives - voters who are reluctant to reveal their allegiance, who are fearful of professional repercussions if they do so. The same "basket of deplorables" that came out in support of DT and turned to polls upside down.

This actually might be a significant number. The penchant to treat anyone conservative like they're some kind of racist Nazi might backfire and we see the deplorable-effect come election day.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 16, 2019, 18:42:23
Latest poll tracker is out and the Liberals see major drop in seat projection. 

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

Note the NDP goes up almost a point per day.  If the trend continues they could be up 5 more points before the election is decided.  Might not translate to seats but it may split the vote even more in favour of the CPC.

Hmm.. the potential outcomes only add up to 99%.  I guess that means a 1% chance of Kang and Kodos invading and taking over.

At this point, I'm not sure that would be a bad thing...

(https://i1.sndcdn.com/avatars-000008236976-ihsxhg-t500x500.jpg)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 16, 2019, 18:45:44
Hmm.. the potential outcomes only add up to 99%.  I guess that means a 1% chance of Kang and Kodos invading and taking over.

At this point, I'm not sure that would be a bad thing...

(https://i1.sndcdn.com/avatars-000008236976-ihsxhg-t500x500.jpg)

I, for one, salute our new alien overlords...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 16, 2019, 18:57:19
Aaaaaaaaaand it didn't take The Beaverton long ...
"Update: Canadians lucky US Presidential endorsement of Canadian political leader didn’t involve drone strikes" (https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/update-canadians-lucky-us-presidential-endorsement-of-canadian-political-leader-didnt-involve-drone-strikes/?fbclid=IwAR3lGoyo1S8ALK2hq6OrFZXqhZZaU2j8UFxRtpe4vyUc7wowG73FsWPqzHs)
... with a quick follow-up:  "Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer has been let down by his fellow American, Barack Obama, after he opted to endorse Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau in a tweet ..." (https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/obama-betrays-fellow-countryman/?fbclid=IwAR1wWI9Sz7XwUoLOdIBIHER6tUNb-4grDXND2FPc3zh5SMa1BnTo8u_l_fU)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 16, 2019, 19:08:16
... with a quick follow-up:  "Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer has been let down by his fellow American, Barack Obama, after he opted to endorse Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau in a tweet ..." (https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/obama-betrays-fellow-countryman/?fbclid=IwAR1wWI9Sz7XwUoLOdIBIHER6tUNb-4grDXND2FPc3zh5SMa1BnTo8u_l_fU)

Regarding the above,

Quote
Global News

October 16, 2019

Scheer won’t explain travel to America as citizen without valid U.S. passport
https://globalnews.ca/news/6037999/scheer-us-travel-us-passport/
Multiple requests to the party for an explanation have been ignored over the last 11 days.

I can't believe I never heard of that site before... There's some funny stuff in there especially this one.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/putin-impressed-canadian-voters-dont-need-help-spreading-disinformation/

Quote
Putin impressed Canadian voters don’t need help spreading disinformation

 :)









Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 16, 2019, 20:44:45
Liberals - Conservatives running 'dirtiest' campaign ever!

Also Liberals - https://globalnews.ca/news/6039611/liberals-post-video-of-scheer-sitting-during-o-canada-tory-leader-says-they-politicized-anthem/




Quote
Global News asked the Liberal Party why it released the video of Scheer on Wednesday and while simultaneously accusing the Tories of divisive campaign tactics.

A Liberal Party spokesperson provided a brief statement in response but did not directly answer the questions.


Double standard is wine of communion with the LPC.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 16, 2019, 21:26:44
I can’t wait for this gong show to be over.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 16, 2019, 23:50:38
I can’t wait for this gong show to be over.

Sometimes I wonder if dictators are really so bad hahaha
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 17, 2019, 00:01:44
Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 17, 2019, 00:04:32
If the voting really turns out to be this divided on the left and by some miracle the Conservatives end up forming a government, it had better be a majority otherwise we will be right back at this in less than 6 months.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 17, 2019, 00:19:56
If the voting really turns out to be this divided on the left and by some miracle the Conservatives end up forming a government, it had better be a majority otherwise we will be right back at this in less than 6 months.

I'd be happy with that as long as the Liberals and Conservatives replace their leader.

I'm also happy if we get a government that can't pass any legislation / effect any changes, would probably be the best government ever.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 17, 2019, 06:07:45
My memory tells me those who cause the fall of a minority Gov often end up outside official party status.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Haggis on October 17, 2019, 07:35:42
If the voting really turns out to be this divided on the left and by some miracle the Conservatives end up forming a government, it had better be a majority otherwise we will be right back at this in less than 6 months.

When I walked out of the advance poll on Monday I said "see you in four years".  The poll worker responded "maybe sooner".  ;D
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 17, 2019, 08:26:03
I can’t wait for this gong show to be over.
I hope I'm wrong, but no matter who wins, we're going to be seeing nothing but this ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 17, 2019, 09:31:57
I love Journeyman's idea about having the government come together every 6 months to decide if any policies have to change or anything needs to be done.


I like the PPCs idea of less government.
We need more control of where money from taxes are spent. Seeing stupid tweets bragging about sending millions of dollars to whoever is annoying as hell.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 17, 2019, 10:36:31
This was posted a short time ago on Twitter from Obama.  I'm curious to see if this will help Trudeau.  Elections Canada when asked has already said this is not interfer

I was proud to work with Justin Trudeau as President. He's a hard-working, effective leader who takes on big issues like climate change. The world needs his progressive leadership now, and I hope our neighbors to the north support him for another term.

Interesting how foreigners inserting themselves into Canadian elections is generally thought to be a bad thing...unless it is designed to help the Liberals.

Thought experiment time: what would be the general (media) reaction in Canada to GW Bush endorsing Andrew Scheer, I wonder?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 17, 2019, 10:44:21
Thought experiment time: what would be the general (media) reaction in Canada to GW Bush endorsing Andrew Scheer, I wonder?
a) it would be worlds better than a Trump endorsement.  ("dammit, we've managed to keep Ford muzzled, and now this...")

b) you could spin a Bush 43 endorsement as embracing LGBQT+ support.... since Ellen DeGeneres and GWB are supposedly buddies.   ;)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 17, 2019, 13:12:40
Just for info, the Vivian Krause very one-sided documentary "Over A Barrell" is availablr (FREE ~ until 31 Oct 19) on Fracebook (https://www.facebook.com/overabarreldoc/videos/786770458437667/).

It's very one-sided because of most of the people she enamed refused to be interviewed.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 17, 2019, 13:46:11
My political preference would be some form of Green/Conservative Coalition Government.  I know, this sounds crazy, but hear me out!

I am what you would call a "Progressive Conservative", I am fiscally conservative but believe strongly in a lot of social issues i.e. Indigenous reconciliation, LGBTQ+ rights, pro-choice, etc.  In those cases, I like what the Green Party is saying a lot. 

I also think that we have a duty to look after the environment and believe in ethical/responsible business practices and that means doing our best for the environment; however, we also can't destroy our economy.  I believe there are some compromises that can be made though and that the Green Party and Conservative Party could actually work well together.  I very much liked that Elizabeth May said she would support Canadians using Canadian oil and ween us off foreign oil.  For that to happen, we need pipelines so there is already some compromise that could happen there.  Likewise, I think a fairly significant portion of taxes the Government generates from oil royalties should go towards Green Initiatives. 

I like large portions of the Green Party Foreign & Defence Platform particularly the focus on banning foreign importation of oil and cancelling the AFV deal with Saudi Arabia.  As well, I think the Greens would actually beef up our military in certain respects, particularly in light of this piece from their platform:

Quote
The security and defence of the nation is a fundamental responsibility of any sovereign government. Not since the end of the Cold War 30 years ago has global security seemed so precarious. Contributing to this is the disruption being caused by climate change – referred to by military analysts as a threat multiplier. This will only worsen as the Earth heats up, including in Canada.

One thing I didn't like was that they would recommend banning autonomous weapon systems, that like the Anti Land-Mine Treaty is militarily stupid and I would strongly advise against doing that.  I suspect this would be quickly stricken from their policy if they ever had the opportunity to form part of a government and again, compromise could be sought.

For any of this too happen though, the Greens would need to become significantly stronger than they are at present.  Not going to happen this election but could it in the future? I think there is a lot in the Green platform that Rural Conservative Voting Canadians (who honestly have the most to lose from Climate Change) could like from the Green Party Platform.  All this being said, I know it is a crazy idea but it could just be a match made in heaven.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 17, 2019, 14:06:22

I am what you would call a "Progressive Conservative", I am fiscally conservative but believe strongly in a lot of social issues i.e. Indigenous reconciliation, LGBTQ+ rights, pro-choice, etc.  ,

All this being said, I know it is a crazy idea but it could just be a match made in heaven.

I am politically about the same as you.

The only problem with your match made in heaven though is pipelines.  One would want them all over heaven, the other wants them sent to hell.  Either way someone will get dirty...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 17, 2019, 14:15:15
Sometimes I wonder if dictators are really so bad hahaha

Germany tried that experiment. We know how it ended.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 17, 2019, 14:17:22
I am politically about the same as you.

The only problem with your match made in heaven though is pipelines.  One would want them all over heaven, the other wants them sent to hell.  Either way someone will get dirty...

I think the big issue for the Green Party WRT pipelines is what happens after the Oil leaves the pipe and gets put on a ship and this is also a Major gripe for many people in British Columbia.  It makes sense given the strong Green presence on Vancouver Island & the surrounding Gulf Islands and honestly, it should be a concern.  A major shipping accident akin to the Exxon Valdez would be absolutely devastating not just ecologically but also economically for Lower Mainland, Vancouver & Gulf Islands, BC and we should take it seriously. 

If and when Trans-Mountain Pipeline does get built, we should have multiple contingency and response plans to deal with such an incident and the Federal Government should have a robust spill response capability.  Given how the Federal Government has severely mismanaged the Coast Guard, Navy and DFO in the past, I see little hope for this yet.   

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 17, 2019, 14:18:41
I think the big issue for the Green Party WRT pipelines is what happens after the Oil leaves the pipe and gets put on a ship and this is also a Major gripe for many people in British Columbia.  It makes sense given the strong Green presence on Vancouver Island & the surrounding Gulf Islands and honestly, it should be a concern.  A major shipping accident akin to the Exxon Valdez would be absolutely devastating not just ecologically but also economically for Lower Mainland, Vancouver & Gulf Islands, BC and we should take it seriously. 

If and when Trans-Mountain Pipeline does get built, we should have multiple contingency and response plans to deal with such an incident and the Federal Government should have a robust spill response capability.  Given how the Federal Government has severely mismanaged the Coast Guard, Navy and DFO in the past, I see little hope for this yet.

They seem to have no troubles with selling coal.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 17, 2019, 14:23:10
I think the big issue for the Green Party WRT pipelines is what happens after the Oil leaves the pipe and gets put on a ship and this is also a Major gripe for many people in British Columbia.  It makes sense given the strong Green presence on Vancouver Island & the surrounding Gulf Islands and honestly, it should be a concern.  A major shipping accident akin to the Exxon Valdez would be absolutely devastating not just ecologically but also economically for Lower Mainland, Vancouver & Gulf Islands, BC and we should take it seriously. 

If and when Trans-Mountain Pipeline does get built, we should have multiple contingency and response plans to deal with such an incident and the Federal Government should have a robust spill response capability.  Given how the Federal Government has severely mismanaged the Coast Guard, Navy and DFO in the past, I see little hope for this yet.

If oil is extracted responsibly think about how many green energy programs or social programs that could fund.  but yes, you are right hope is fleeting indeed that they can get it right.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 17, 2019, 14:30:34
Image was too big to load. So, just a link about Doug and Mr. Scheer.  :)
https://torontosun.com/opinion/cartoons/donato-oct-13
Mission accomplished (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-kenora-announcement-1.5322436) ...
Quote
... "I know you want to see me scrap it out with the feds," Ford told reporters. "I'm just not going to do it." ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 17, 2019, 14:38:14
They seem to have no troubles with selling coal.

Well Coal also isn't lighter than water and won't kill off the commercial fishing industry, commercial whale watching, tourism, threaten property values, etc.  If there is an incident, because coal is a solid, it will sink to the bottom of the ocean as sediment and while this may be somewhat bad for a few crabs and flora and fauna in the immediate area, it won't do much damage otherwise.  Yes Coal contains bad chemicals but these are only really released and made harmful when Coal is burned. There was a Coal Ship that sank off Victoria in 1891 and they did a study on it and found it too be less polluting than the sewage Victoria dumps in to the Ocean every single day.

It's all about the economy my friend.  A shipping accident involving Coal won't impact large numbers of peoples livelihoods, devastate property values for rich owners, etc.  A large oil spill like the Exxon Valdez will.

If oil is extracted responsibly think about how many green energy programs or social programs that could fund.  but yes, you are right hope is fleeting indeed that they can get it right.

This is really my point, Oil is still going to need to be extracted, refined and used for many different applications outside the automobile, even then, in certain scenarios it is still more useful to use fossil fuels at this time, particularly in extremely cold climates.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Colin P on October 17, 2019, 14:59:02
Some of the Greens I met in the North could meet the requirements for a Green/Conservative coalition, much more practical than their urban cousins. What the Conservatives should be focusing on is habitat protection and construction. Increasing wetlands is all round good and you can also employ First Nations to build a lot of it. The CPC if they will need to go the FN's and talk about employment, certainly here in BC, the bands will listen to that and want it. Also promoting fish stock management and hatcheries will also help. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 17, 2019, 15:15:44
Some of the Greens I met in the North could meet the requirements for a Green/Conservative coalition, much more practical than their urban cousins. What the Conservatives should be focusing on is habitat protection and construction. Increasing wetlands is all round good and you can also employ First Nations to build a lot of it. The CPC if they will need to go the FN's and talk about employment, certainly here in BC, the bands will listen to that and want it. Also promoting fish stock management and hatcheries will also help.

This is what I mean, there is lots of common ground to be found and many shared interests.  I am 100% about collaboration as opposed to confrontation which seems to be the way of the world nowadays.

I would have considered voting Liberal but the Socialist bent of Justin Trudeau as well as the numerous questions around Ethics really have made me question his integrity as a person.  the Jody-Wilson Raybould/Mark Norman affairs were really the straw that broke the camels back for me with respect to his ability to effectively govern.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 17, 2019, 15:17:24
I think the big issue for the Green Party WRT pipelines is what happens after the Oil leaves the pipe and gets put on a ship and this is also a Major gripe for many people in British Columbia.  It makes sense given the strong Green presence on Vancouver Island & the surrounding Gulf Islands and honestly, it should be a concern.  A major shipping accident akin to the Exxon Valdez would be absolutely devastating not just ecologically but also economically for Lower Mainland, Vancouver & Gulf Islands, BC and we should take it seriously. 

If and when Trans-Mountain Pipeline does get built, we should have multiple contingency and response plans to deal with such an incident and the Federal Government should have a robust spill response capability.  Given how the Federal Government has severely mismanaged the Coast Guard, Navy and DFO in the past, I see little hope for this yet.

The big issue for the Greens and pipelines is to corner the market on votes from people under 30 most of whom, of course, aren't working in jobs that make alot of money, own houses, have kids, or who are otherwise heavily invested in the traditional economy yet.

This also helps explain the ridiculous hyperbole around climate change ('Thank Gawd for Gerta' - Elizabeth May) that's ramping up, to get this demographic to vote Green now before they 'grow up', in the traditional economic sense, in the 4 years before the next election because young people don't tend to vote, at all.

It also helps explain their move to change the electoral system to one that recognizes the popular vote, as opposed to riding-centric (whatever that's called because I can't remember right now):                     

What’s fuelling Canada’s Green Party?

The potential Green voter pool is 35% among those 60 or older, and a whopping 58% among those under 30. The accessible Green pool is large enough to have a major impact on every part of the country.

https://abacusdata.ca/whats-fueling-canadas-green-party/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 17, 2019, 16:34:19
I think the big issue for the Green Party WRT pipelines is what happens after the Oil leaves the pipe and gets put on a ship and this is also a Major gripe for many people in British Columbia.  It makes sense given the strong Green presence on Vancouver Island & the surrounding Gulf Islands and honestly, it should be a concern.  A major shipping accident akin to the Exxon Valdez would be absolutely devastating not just ecologically but also economically for Lower Mainland, Vancouver & Gulf Islands, BC and we should take it seriously...

The irony is that hydrogen in the hydrocarbon oil resolved to water upon combustion, however, there isn’t any hydrogen in the BC coal exported to China, India, Japan and elsewhere from Roberts Point on the lower mainland. When burned, that makes predominantly CO2...but that’s okay in the eyes of British Columbians... ::)

And a post-PANAMAX container ship accident would have no effect on the environment because they operate on pixie-dust and unicorn farts, not maritime distillate oil. ;)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Underway on October 17, 2019, 16:36:27
Some of the Greens I met in the North could meet the requirements for a Green/Conservative coalition, much more practical than their urban cousins. What the Conservatives should be focusing on is habitat protection and construction. Increasing wetlands is all round good and you can also employ First Nations to build a lot of it. The CPC if they will need to go the FN's and talk about employment, certainly here in BC, the bands will listen to that and want it. Also promoting fish stock management and hatcheries will also help.

Green Party in Canada many years back before May took over had a large group of disaffected PC members.  They are the wing of the party that have more or less been pushed to the side by the Green Marxists.  However in looking at the Green platform you can still see their fingerprints on it, as the Green Party as still much more centre than the NDP generally.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Thucydides on October 17, 2019, 17:07:18
Finally got a flyer in the front door from the Communist Party, which also has a candidate in my riding (wow, a full house!)

One point which I find interesting is when you read it, at least 2/3 of the issues and platform planks are indistinguishable from the Liberal, Conservative, NDP or Green platforms. If most of the parties are offering the same thing, with only a few minor detail differences, then the election is essentially arguing over what shade of yellow we want to paint the kitchen. While I also have a PPC candidate like virtually every riding, I'm starting to think that for 2024 there should be a concerted effort to get all 14 registered parties to field candidates in all ridings. Canadians need more than a very limited palette of choices when it comes to electoral politics.

https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=pol&dir=par&document=index&lang=e


The other part, which I found rather hilarious, is the section about the military:
Quote
"While Trudeau talks about peace, he's increased military spending by 73%, and his Foreign Minister has involved Canada in regime change operations in Venezuela, Brazil, Nicaragua, Syria and now China..."

I would have expected at least a phone call asking about my availability for regime change operations in China, since that might require a bit of extra manpower (if everyone else is already busy in Venezuela, Brazil, Nicaragua and Syria). Oddly, real missions in Latvia, Ukraine and Iraq were overlooked. You would hope that people seeking public office would be at least minimally informed, but I suppose that is too much to expect.

The evening of the 21rst will be interesting.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 17, 2019, 17:17:40
The irony is that hydrogen in the hydrocarbon oil resolved to water upon combustion, however, there isn’t any hydrogen in the BC coal exported to China, India, Japan and elsewhere from Roberts Point on the lower mainland. When burned, that makes predominantly CO2...but that’s okay in the eyes of British Columbians... ::)

And a post-PANAMAX container ship accident would have no effect on the environment because they operate on pixie-dust and unicorn farts, not maritime distillate oil. ;)

No doubt, I also sometimes think the devastation caused by environmental accidents on the water is greatly overstated.  One thing that is never talked about which is the greatest environmental accident on the water of all time, WWII and its shipwrecks:

(https://mk0brilliantmaptxoqs.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/ww2-shipwrecks-600x350.jpg)

With the combined total of ships sunk adding up to 7807 vessels (that is an estimate based on known numbers btw, the actual total could be even greater).  If you were to believe the Sierra Club and their messaging about oil spills, the North Atlantic should be proverbial apocalyptic wasteland by now.

That's a lot of crap being spewed in to the water and we have all somehow managed to survive  8)



Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 17, 2019, 17:22:26

The other part, which I found rather hilarious, is the section about the military:
I would have expected at least a phone call asking about my availability for regime change operations in China, since that might require a bit of extra manpower (if everyone else is already busy in Venezuela, Brazil, Nicaragua and Syria). Oddly, real missions in Latvia, Ukraine and Iraq were overlooked. You would hope that people seeking public office would be at least minimally informed, but I suppose that is too much to expect.

The evening of the 21rst will be interesting.

Well some of us have Tin foil medals with bars for each OP.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 17, 2019, 18:29:11
….but the Socialist bent of Justin Trudeau as well as the numerous questions around Ethics really have made me question his integrity as a person.  the Jody-Wilson Raybould/Mark Norman affairs were really the straw that broke the camels back for me with respect to his ability to effectively govern.
For "Socialist," I think I'd be more prone to label it as 'virtue signalling' -- I really (no, not political name-calling), honestly haven't seen any sort of serious Socialist proposals from him -- just posturing for media/global gatherings' coverage.
I think (OK, now  being catty) that between his entitled upbringing and his Mom & Fidel.... any remotely Socialist economics understanding is limited to dorm room poster sayings.

Notice: I'm neither a Socialist, nor have I played one on TV.... but I do read a fair bit. 8)


As for his integrity:   :brickwall:    :waiting:    :not-again:   [go on, try to pick any only two]
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 17, 2019, 19:25:30
latest poll tracker sees the gap in seat projections between the CPC and LPC grow.  CPC seems to have dropped. 


https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


Maybe their platform release is being reflected.  I’m in the PS and a lot of people I work with we’re planning to vote CPC until they saw their plans for the PS...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 17, 2019, 19:28:28

That's a lot of crap being spewed in to the water and we have all somehow managed to survive  8)

And crap not just in the water. The air has been full of it lately  :facepalm:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 17, 2019, 20:13:37
I was watching a father of a child with autism question Scheer today as to whether he would fund autism treatment if elected.  The response Scheer gave was "absolutely" which caused the ecstatic father raise Scheers' hand like he was the champion for autism.  Scheer then quickly took off before any other questions could be asked.  Later the Conservative Party clarified that they only plan on committing x amount of money for autism research.  If anyone else watched this clip they will clearly see Scheer commitment to a very clear question.  He flat out lied to this poor father.
I've seen Scheer make other BS statements and this is part of why I didn't vote for CPC this time around.  I simply don't trust him.



 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 17, 2019, 20:43:52
Quote from: stellarpanther
Later the Conservative Party clarified that they only plan on committing x amount of money for autism research. 

What's the alternative to providing a set amount of funding? Blank check perhaps?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 17, 2019, 20:52:53
I simply don't trust him.

Regardless of which team you support: ''Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see.''  :)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 17, 2019, 20:53:16
I was watching a father of a child with autism question Scheer today as to whether he would fund autism treatment if elected.  The response Scheer gave was "absolutely" ...
... Later the Conservative Party clarified that they only plan on committing x amount of money for autism research ...
Sorry, I don't see a conflict between the two bits in yellow -- unless Scheer or the party folk said something more than what you've mentioned, "lied" may be going too far on this one.

Here's what Team Blue's committed to on autism, for the record (https://www.conservative.ca/canadas-conservatives-release-statement-national-autism-strategy/):
Quote
... “Canada’s Conservatives believe that the federal government can play an important role in developing a strategy to assist those living with autism and their families. As Prime Minister, Andrew Scheer will work with autism stakeholders to develop a National Autism Strategy.

“An initial investment of $50 million over five years would be invested to develop a comprehensive strategy in consultation with autistic individuals, autism organizations, provincial, territorial, and municipal governments, and indigenous communities. The National Autism Strategy will be person-centred, include first-person perspectives, will be culturally appropriate, and will reflect the needs of Canada’s northern, rural, and remote communities.

“This is an important first step to support Canadians’ access to meaningful support and resources to live to their full potential, no matter where they live ...
Is that enough?  Fair question.  What's that mean, exactly?  Fair question.  Lie?  Based only on what you've shared, I don't think so on this one.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 17, 2019, 21:02:14
If he lives in Ontario, the father may have had concerns about Team Blue's policy,

Quote
Global News
October 15, 2019

‘Do the right thing’: Eugene Levy calls on Ford government to reverse autism funding changes
https://globalnews.ca/news/6034823/eugene-levy-autism-funding-ford-government/
Deskin said funding to help care for her adult son Michael, who is also Levy’s cousin, has been cut drastically since the Ford government took power.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 17, 2019, 21:30:30
If he lives in Ontario, the father may have had concerns about Team Blue's policy,
It's not perfect yet (what is, right?), but again, to be fair, at least the Premier has had second thoughts (https://globalnews.ca/news/5697552/ford-government-ontario-autism-program-funding-changes/) - let's see where that takes him.  I'm actually surprised at how he's cranked back at least some things, but I still worry about what's to come - fingers crossed.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 17, 2019, 21:35:26
It's not perfect yet (what is, right?), but again, to be fair, at least the Premier has had second thoughts (https://globalnews.ca/news/5697552/ford-government-ontario-autism-program-funding-changes/) - let's see where that takes him.  I'm actually surprised at how he's cranked back at least some things, but I still worry about what's to come - fingers crossed.

Reminds me of Doug's days as a City councillor,  :)
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNRAc1w0pQmKN6xyR-5dZAhwapA6AA%3A1571358756472&ei=JAipXea0HKTRxgPC9J6wCg&q=%22doug+ford%22+councillor+autism&oq=%22doug+ford%22+councillor+autism&gs_l=psy-ab.12..35i39.32636.35990..41002...0.0..0.180.356.0j2......0....1..gws-wiz.o2tG7tw7wNQ&ved=0ahUKEwjm1vnDx6TlAhWkqHEKHUK6B6YQ4dUDCAo#spf=1571358798168
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 17, 2019, 22:26:28
My bad for dragging us into the provincial arena ...

Bringing it back to the national focus, here's the latest from 338canada.com (http://338canada.com/) and the Election Prediction Project (https://www.electionprediction.org/2019_fed/index.php) (here's how they read the tea leaves (http://www.electionprediction.org/method.html)) -- still big margins of error, but here's the latest bones that have been cast.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 17, 2019, 23:29:40
Filed under big surprise.


CBC won't sue Liberals over partisan ad using their material

Quote
CBC says they won’t be suing a Liberal candidate or the Liberal Party for using CBC material in an online partisan ad even as they continue a lawsuit against the Conservatives for the same thing.

Nirmala Naidoo is the Liberal candidate in Calgary Skyview and a former reporter and anchor with CBC and Global Television in Calgary. In a video posted on Twitter, she relied heavily on CBC broadcast material to tell voters why they should back her in Monday’s election.

Though she did the exact same thing as the Conservatives, CBC is not suing Naidoo or her party.

Quote
The video had been up since September 12 before CBC sought to have it taken down just this week. In the case of the Conservatives using CBC material, the party says they complied with the request to remove the material before the lawsuit was launched.


https://torontosun.com/news/national/election-2019/cbc-wont-sue-liberals-over-partisan-ad-using-their-material?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571336484
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 18, 2019, 01:19:57
My bad for dragging us into the provincial arena ...

Bringing it back to the national focus, here's the latest from 338canada.com (http://338canada.com/) and the Election Prediction Project (https://www.electionprediction.org/2019_fed/index.php) (here's how they read the tea leaves (http://www.electionprediction.org/method.html)) -- still big margins of error, but here's the latest bones that have been cast.

I actually don't care who wins anymore, but the parties are all completely inept and also clearly only care about nabbing cabinet positions for themselves if they don't demand the Liberals replace Trudeau in order to govern.... coalition or not.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Thucydides on October 18, 2019, 02:25:24
The question about Autism actually reflects a broader issue in that the questioner clearly does not understand how Canada's government works. Questions about Healthcare should be directed to the Provincial government, as it is their jurisdiction.

Of course I have seen it elsewhere. At the 2019 all candidates meeting at King's College here in London, not one of the students asked any questions relating to federal responsibilities. The problem was compounded by the format (essentially 30 second answers) and most of the candidates actually answering these questions rather than enlightening the students that these were not things they could or would work on as MPs. Of course a lot of the Kings College staff were also there gazing approvingly at the results of their educational work....

In a previous election, a friend of mine was a candidate and I went with her on some canvassing, where the people at the door asked her if she was elected would she fix the pothole at the end of the street...

And in 2006, I made a run for Mayor of London (mostly to have a platform to make some points), and had to tackle the then Mayor because her primary campaign promise was to "stop Toronto garbage from being trucked to landfills in Michigan". You can imagine her reaction to my constantly dragging the discussion back to infrastructure and taxation.....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 18, 2019, 08:56:46
... CBC won't sue Liberals over partisan ad using their material ...
... because the candidate took down material the first time CBC asked ;)
And in 2006, I made a run for Mayor of London (mostly to have a platform to make some points), and had to tackle the then Mayor because her primary campaign promise was to "stop Toronto garbage from being trucked to landfills in Michigan". You can imagine her reaction to my constantly dragging the discussion back to infrastructure and taxation.....
Yup - after spending some time watching municipal politics and having to explain it to people in a previous life, I learned a lot of people think "government" is WAY more of a single "borg" than it really is.  Sometimes, though, different levels of government want to help with a problem they don't have direct control over, so they do what they can.  Some municipalities, for example, have set up teams to help attract doctors to underserviced areas, even though health is a generally a fed-regulates-prov-delivers kinda service.
The question about Autism actually reflects a broader issue in that the questioner clearly does not understand how Canada's government works. Questions about Healthcare should be directed to the Provincial government, as it is their jurisdiction.
The provinces deliver the services, but health is not exclusively their jurisdiction.  That's one of those "both levels have some role" federalism things, like labour, agriculture, transportation and the environment - notice there are both provincial and federal ministers in these areas. 

Some of the federal job is to set national standards to prevent tooooooooo much of a difference between different provinces.  Why are there not different standards, say, for pilots' medicals in different provinces?  Team Fed can do things like develop national strategies to cover things like diabetes (https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/corporate/about-health-canada/activities-responsibilities/strategies-initiatives/canadian-diabetes-strategy.html), suicide prevention (https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/healthy-living/federal-framework-suicide-prevention-progress-report-2018.html) and mental health (https://www.mentalhealthcommission.ca/English/resources/mhcc-reports/mental-health-strategy-canada).  This explains why Team Blue, for example, wants to flesh out a national autism strategy (https://www.conservative.ca/canadas-conservatives-release-statement-national-autism-strategy/). 

How useful are these strategies?  How good were the processes leading to these strategies?  Do we need national standards, rules or guidelines for X when the provinces know well enough what's needed on the ground?  All good topics for debate.  But is Canada "in the business" of some stuff that is also the business of provinces, including health?  Yup.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 18, 2019, 09:27:08
... because the candidate took down material the first time CBC asked ;)

I thought the Conservatives did as well.

Quote
The video had been up since September 12 before CBC sought to have it taken down just this week. In the case of the Conservatives using CBC material, the party says they complied with the request to remove the material before the lawsuit was launched.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 18, 2019, 09:59:05
And in 2006, I made a run for Mayor of London (mostly to have a platform to make some points), and had to tackle the then Mayor because her primary campaign promise was to "stop Toronto garbage from being trucked to landfills in Michigan". You can imagine her reaction to my constantly dragging the discussion back to infrastructure and taxation.....

You, Sir, deserve a medal....   :nod:

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 18, 2019, 10:00:43
I thought the Conservatives did as well.
I can't access the initial court filing where I am now, but according to one legal blogger who says CBC looks more than a little goofy on this one, "the video was moved to a private setting on YouTube on the day the lawsuit was filed and the tweets were deleted" (http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2019/10/cbc-sues-the-conservative-party-of-canada-for-copyright-infringement-citing-campaign-video-posting-debate-excerpts-on-twitter/).  And in 2015, they pulled material after more ignored letters & once they got the legal paperwork (which led to an out-of-court settlement).
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 18, 2019, 10:08:12
I think this election cycle can best be described by some modern philosopher kings.

Some will win, some will lose
Some were born to sing the blues
Oh, the movie never ends
It goes on and on and on and on
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jonezy76 on October 18, 2019, 10:49:33
Interesting read.... It may happen next week.

Seems that a PM is PM until he/she resigns.

No, the party with the most seats doesn't always govern.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/no-the-party-with-the-most-seats-doesnt-always-govern/ar-AAIYqsX?ocid=spartanntp (https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/no-the-party-with-the-most-seats-doesnt-always-govern/ar-AAIYqsX?ocid=spartanntp)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 18, 2019, 10:54:21
Interesting read.... It may happen next week.

Seems that a PM is PM until he/she resigns.

No, the party with the most seats doesn't always govern.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/no-the-party-with-the-most-seats-doesnt-always-govern/ar-AAIYqsX?ocid=spartanntp (https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/no-the-party-with-the-most-seats-doesnt-always-govern/ar-AAIYqsX?ocid=spartanntp)
Incumbent gets first crack ... more on that here ...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-trudeau-minority-government-2019-election-1.5324496
... and how it's unfolded in the past here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_minority_governments_in_Canada
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 18, 2019, 11:00:21
Interesting read.... It may happen next week.

Seems that a PM is PM until he/she resigns.

No, the party with the most seats doesn't always govern.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/no-the-party-with-the-most-seats-doesnt-always-govern/ar-AAIYqsX?ocid=spartanntp (https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/no-the-party-with-the-most-seats-doesnt-always-govern/ar-AAIYqsX?ocid=spartanntp)

Yup.  And Andrew Scheer knows this.  But his claim is about creating a narrative and cause difficulties for when it does happen.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 18, 2019, 12:33:58
So three scenarios for Monday.


1) Liberal minority with NDP support/coalition.  If this happens I expect that the government will last a while as long as NDP demands are met.  Singh may be in cabinet.  Heck they could even give them the environment file and let them deal with the provinces.  Pontis Pilate style.

2) Conservative minority.  Won't last.  Opposition parties will want to hit them early.  NDP won't work with them at all, Bloc won't agree to scrap the carbon tax.  Very hard to see how they will govern.

3) Conservative majority.  Might happen but unlikely.  Enough people need to come out of the wood work to surprise everyone, not sure Scheer ran  strong enough campaign for that.

We'll see Monday night. Butwill be a late one.  But with 5 million advance voters we might actually already have a good idea of where this is going.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 18, 2019, 13:13:29
So three scenarios for Monday.


1) Liberal minority with NDP support/coalition.  If this happens I expect that the government will last a while as long as NDP demands are met.  Singh may be in cabinet.  Heck they could even give them the environment file and let them deal with the provinces.  Pontis Pilate style.

2) Conservative minority.  Won't last.  Opposition parties will want to hit them early.  NDP won't work with them at all, Bloc won't agree to scrap the carbon tax.  Very hard to see how they will govern.

3) Conservative majority.  Might happen but unlikely.  Enough people need to come out of the wood work to surprise everyone, not sure Scheer ran  strong enough campaign for that.

We'll see Monday night. Butwill be a late one.  But with 5 million advance voters we might actually already have a good idea of where this is going.

Option 4 is looking increasingly appealing...

(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/J1jmUVrl08YDxXpr9v57HbWFVEM=/420x240/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/d2/e2/d2e22ff2-bd84-4b10-bd10-53f4d7a83cc1/file-20180207-74479-1ragczb.jpg)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 18, 2019, 13:48:17
Option 4 is looking increasingly appealing...

(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/J1jmUVrl08YDxXpr9v57HbWFVEM=/420x240/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/d2/e2/d2e22ff2-bd84-4b10-bd10-53f4d7a83cc1/file-20180207-74479-1ragczb.jpg)

is that not the same as option 1?   ;D
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 18, 2019, 14:42:15
Option 4 is looking increasingly appealing...

(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/J1jmUVrl08YDxXpr9v57HbWFVEM=/420x240/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/d2/e2/d2e22ff2-bd84-4b10-bd10-53f4d7a83cc1/file-20180207-74479-1ragczb.jpg)

Did not realize I could vote for that option. Dangit.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 18, 2019, 18:33:06
Is Lord Vader running for office? At least his campaign is honest.

Together we can rule the galaxy.....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 18, 2019, 19:09:50
What's the alternative to providing a set amount of funding? Blank check perhaps?
I think you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say.  He flat out lied to this guys face instead of telling him the truth and then quickly took off before the media could question it.  I agree with what you are saying that no government can give out blank cheques and fund everything but at least have the courage and decency to say it instead of a flat out lie.  If I could find the clip to post on here I would.

I disagree with Trudeau saying we don't have the money to give the Veterans everything they are asking for right now, but at least he said it and didn't promise something that wasn't going to happen.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 18, 2019, 19:32:32
You're right I don't understand. Can you explain to me how he lied?

It looks like he said yes we will. And then someone in his party confirmed it would be 50 million over 5 years.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 18, 2019, 20:45:09
E-Day - 2.   :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 18, 2019, 21:46:24
... He flat out lied to this guys face instead of telling him the truth ...
What was the lie, and what was the truth?  Even I saw the same thing said twice ???
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 18, 2019, 21:49:15
E-Day - 2.   :pop:

This particular campaign cannot end soon enough for me...

Unfortunately, I think we will be back the polls by the Spring.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 18, 2019, 21:57:33
This particular campaign cannot end soon enough for me...

Unfortunately, I think we will be back the polls by the Spring.

Conservative convention is in April.  They will likely be picking a leader at that point.  So maybe 18 months from now?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 18, 2019, 22:36:13
You're right I don't understand. Can you explain to me how he lied?

It looks like he said yes we will. And then someone in his party confirmed it would be 50 million over 5 years.
Specifically, the commitment Scheer made to this father was that he would negotiate full treatment with the provinces but that isn't what is actually going to happen if he is elected.  The Party clarified later that there plan is to spend fifty million towards developing a national strategy.  While that's something, it's not the same as funding treatment.  Scheer was very clear what he said.  He clearly said treatment.  Watch the video about 43 seconds in and you will see and hear him commit to treatment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Cxr-FTfyU
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 19, 2019, 08:12:24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Cxr-FTfyU
Thanks for the video - seen.  A promise to negotiate with the provinces for full treatment =/= money for a strategy/framework.

Glass-half-empty:  He committed to something "the book" didn't say, so it's not going to happen.

Glass-half-full:  Gotcha!  If he gets elected and doesn't do it, this'll be the clip parents of kids on the spectrum'll be playing over and over again.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on October 19, 2019, 08:30:43
Glass tipped over sideways, empty of liquid: Ooops! I made a Boo Boo. I said I would respect provincial jurisdiction ... which this is.

 [:-[


I am with SKT on this one: Can't wait t'ill it's over. I don't think I recall an electoral campaign as boring and devoid of factual issues as this one since the Clark = Trudeau (Sr.) one that gave us a minority Tory government.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 19, 2019, 08:54:58
Specifically, the commitment Scheer made to this father was that he would negotiate full treatment with the provinces but that isn't what is actually going to happen if he is elected. 
I see what you mean.. Thanks for explaining.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 19, 2019, 08:55:59
Glass tipped over sideways, empty of liquid: Ooops! I made a Boo Boo. I said I would respect provincial jurisdiction ... which this is.
If this really is JUST provincial jurisdiction, if Team Blue wins, I look forward to their getting rid of the federal ministry of health, then - lotsa money to be saved there.  Hell, transport, agriculture, labour - shut 'em all down.  Fewer bureaucrats, smaller government, eliminated redundancy, fewer cabinet ministers needed, all in one fell swoop! ;D
... Can't wait t'ill it's over. I don't think I recall an electoral campaign as boring and devoid of factual issues as this one since the Clark = Trudeau (Sr.) one that gave us a minority Tory government.
:nod: And I suspect the shrillness will only get worse down the line  :(
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PPCLI Guy on October 19, 2019, 15:47:03
I am with SKT on this one: Can't wait t'ill it's over. I don't think I recall an electoral campaign as boring and devoid of factual issues as this one since the Clark = Trudeau (Sr.) one that gave us a minority Tory government.

This is like a Seinfeld election - it is about nothing. 

We get to chose between two uninspiring and unimpressive individuals, who represent parties with very few differences of substance, and even fewer talents of substance, neither of whom have a clue how to govern, or have the stomach to make hard choices. 

Having said that, on 22 Oct Canada will still be Canada, resilient, predictable and boring as ever.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Dimsum on October 19, 2019, 16:19:35
Having said that, on 22 Oct Canada will still be Canada, resilient, predictable and boring as ever.

That's a good thing, right?  I'd rather it not be a choice of "good" vs "complete dumpster fire".
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 19, 2019, 17:02:49

Interesting.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/scheer-won-t-say-if-conservatives-hired-consultant-to-destroy-people-s-party-1.4646062
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on October 19, 2019, 17:18:37
Interesting.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/scheer-won-t-say-if-conservatives-hired-consultant-to-destroy-people-s-party-1.4646062

No actual proof. Some guy said something.

Realistically, isn't this what the Liberals were doing anyways? Targeting the Tories and PPC as racists and climate haters? Colour me surprised that a political party would target another political party with partisan spin on their message.

The Liberals legitimately hired Gerald Butts who tried to tie Andrew Scheer to the yellow vests movement because he had a picture taken with a construction worker, but there's no big story being run about that. I guess its about the narrative the journalists want you to hear.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 19, 2019, 17:43:54
No actual proof. Some guy said something.
:sarcasm: Good point - it can't possibly be true unless Twitter & FB are being overwhelmed with different people sharing, resharing & amplifying the "some guy said something.":sarcasm:

#SadStateOfAffairsOfPoliticsToday  :'(
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 19, 2019, 17:54:52
No actual proof. Some guy said something.

Realistically, isn't this what the Liberals were doing anyways? Targeting the Tories and PPC as racists and climate haters? Colour me surprised that a political party would target another political party with partisan spin on their message.

The Liberals legitimately hired Gerald Butts who tried to tie Andrew Scheer to the yellow vests movement because he had a picture taken with a construction worker, but there's no big story being run about that. I guess its about the narrative the journalists want you to hear.

Given that it is Warren Kinsella they hired I find it interesting.  They had to get a liberal to do it   ;D
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 19, 2019, 18:06:05
No actual proof. Some guy said something.

Or a Russian/Chinese troll just trying to stir up crap.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PPCLI Guy on October 19, 2019, 18:20:51
That's a good thing, right?  I'd rather it not be a choice of "good" vs "complete dumpster fire".

It is great thing, and one of the reasons this country is a great place to live, without being a "Great" country
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 19, 2019, 22:34:28
Trudeau: guns in Canada will never be confiscated.

https://youtu.be/FDCgk-ToyY4

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 19, 2019, 23:39:47
Andrew Coyne gives a scathing but fairly accurate picture of this election.

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/andrew-coyne-cant-the-liberals-and-conservatives-both-lose?video_autoplay=true
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 20, 2019, 10:02:11
Andrew Coyne gives a scathing but fairly accurate picture of this election.

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/andrew-coyne-cant-the-liberals-and-conservatives-both-lose?video_autoplay=true
In the minds of many, they already have.  Perhaps that's why the "fringe" parties are doing better than usual.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 20, 2019, 10:31:20
I wish Canadians had more power to vote for the party leader they wanted. Not just given a couple choices on who the party mafia props up.

And I wish independents had an easier time and less obstacles. There's probably a soccer mom or hockey dad out there who would be amazing at the job.

My area is a conservative strong hold (with an obnoxious MP) but an independent named Dheerendra Kumar (who's a physiotherapist) seems to be doing surprisingly well. If it wasn't for my own biggest issue being at stake this election I'd probably vote for him.

If Trudeau is out of the picture in 4 years I can see myself voting PPC or an independent next election.

If it's true about the Conservatives hiring  that social media hit squad I hope the party gets hammered over it and Scheer sent back to working insurence.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: tomahawk6 on October 20, 2019, 16:03:37
The news down here is the prediction he will lose due to his policy of higher taxes and climate change with a little black face on the side. The prediction business is frought with peril and quite often wrong but we shall see.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 20, 2019, 19:25:30
Interesting article at Reason.com/Volokh Conspiracy that looks at Obama's endorsement of PM Trudeau:

Quote
Obama, Trudeau, and the Morality of Electoral Interference

Barack Obama's recent endorsement of Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is an example of why not all foreign efforts to influence elections are wrong.

Ilya Somin | 10.20.2019 2:36 PM

Over the last three years, many Americans have been angered and distressed at Russia's efforts to influence the outcome of the 2016 US presidential election, and concerned about future foreign interference. The assumption underlying much of the discussion of this issue is that foreign influence on electoral outcomes is inherently wrong, and should be avoided as much as possible. For understandable reasons, liberal Democrats have been especially incensed at foreign interference, given that it was used to help bolster their political adversary Donald Trump.

A few days ago, however, former President Barack Obama endorsed Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who is in the midst of a very tight campaign (election day is tomorrow). The election looks to be very close. Obama is very popular in Canada, and his endorsement could potentially help swing the outcome.

Some of Trudeau's Canadian political opponents denounced Obama's endorsement as reprehensible foreign interference. But negative reaction in the US is noticeable by its near-total absence, particularly among liberal Democrats. Is it hypocritical to denounce Putin's actions in 2016, while giving Obama a pass? Is it all just a matter of whose ox is being gored?

One possible distinction is that Obama was no longer president when he endorsed Trudeau, whereas Putin was and is the ruler of Russia. But, if foreign electoral interference is inherently wrong, why should it matter whether the perpetrators were government officials or not? Few of those who denounce Russian interference in the 2016 election would be mollified if it turned out that it was all the work of Russian private citizens, without direction from the Kremlin.

Moreover, Obama sought to influence foreign political processes when he was president, as well. For example, he publicly urged British voters to reject Brexit in the 2016 referendum on that issue, just as Donald Trump supported the other side in that referendum, and in later political fights over Brexit. Was that morally reprehensible interference in the British political process?

In my view, the answer to these questions lies in recognizing that foreign influence on electoral processes is not inherently wrong. Its justification depends on goals pursued, and the methods used. These factors are what differentiate Obama's actions from Putin's. Moreover, in most cases the justice of attempts to exercise electoral influence does not depend on whether the person attempting to influence the outcome is a foreigner or not.

I expounded on these points in greater detail here:

    "I agree with the conventional wisdom that Russia's intervention in the 2016    election was morally reprehensible. But the morality of electoral interference is not as straightforward as most people think….

    Many discussions of electoral interference implicitly assume that elections should be decided by a nation's voters without any influence from foreigners and their ideas. But such a position makes little sense. The origin of an idea says nothing about its validity. As the great  libertarian economist F.A. Hayek put it, "The growth of ideas is an international process… It is no real argument to say that an idea is un-American, un-British, or un-German, nor is a mistaken or vicious ideal better for having been conceived by one of our compatriots." If ideas developed or conveyed by foreigners influence American voters for the better, we should be happy to see that happen….

    In some cases, attempts to influence foreign elections are not only morally permissible, but even praiseworthy [depending on the issues at stake]…

    Sometimes, the problem with electoral interference is not the intervention as such, but the tactics used. For example, the Russian government was likely behind the hacking of the Democratic National Committee in 2016. Hacking private computer servers is a violation of property rights and privacy, and is certainly morally reprehensible. But the nature of the wrong does not depend on the identity of the perpetrator….

    The Russians also relied heavily on deception and misinformation intended to exploit voter ignorance and bias. This too was wrong. At least as a general rule, there should be a moral presumption against deceiving voters. But, once again, it's not clear that it's worse when done by foreigners than by citizens of the country being influenced….

    Sadly, lying and manipulation of public ignorance are not the sole province of Russian agents. They are standard political tactics of native politicians in both the US and many other countries….

    The point… not to excuse Russian deception by  "whataboutist"  invocation of lying by US politicians. Far from it. Rather, it is to highlight the fact that the nature of the wrong here does not depend on the nationality of the perpetrator….

    This gets us to what may be the most reprehensible aspect of the Russian intervention. The hacking, trolling, and lying was in the service of a deeply unjust cause: promoting the interests of a brutal authoritarian regime and furthering Russian President Vladimir Putin's global campaign against liberty and democracy…. That motive makes the Russian effort particularly reprehensible. But, again, the reason why it deserves condemnation has little to do with the nationality of the people involved…."


When judged from the standpoint of goals and methods, Obama's attempts to influence the Canadian election and the Brexit referendum look very different from Putin's efforts in 2016. I am no great fan of Justin Trudeau and his ideology, and would not endorse him myself. But promoting him for the sake of strengthening progressivism in North America is a far cry from Putin's awful agenda. Similar points apply to the debate over Brexit (an issue on which I actually largely agree with Obama, though there are serious contrary arguments). Obama also did not use such reprehensible tactics as hacking or spreading disinformation in promoting Trudeau and Brexit (though he has not been above using deception in some of his domestic political battles).

It may well be that Obama's attempts to influence British and Canadian politics were unwise. They may fail to achieve their objectives (as clearly happened in the case of Brexit), and may needlessly antagonize key constituencies in two of America's closest allies. There are good pragmatic reasons why political leaders in liberal democracies generally remain neutral in each other's elections. But what Obama did was not intrinsically wrong.

In sum, there are good reasons to differentiate between Obama and Putin. But the price of doing so is recognizing that not all foreign attempts to influence electoral outcomes are wrong. In some situations, information from foreign sources might actually have a beneficial effect on voters. And, when "electoral interference" is morally wrong, it is usually for reasons having little to do with the nationality of the perpetrators.

Ilya Somin is Professor of Law at George Mason University.

Link (https://reason.com/volokh/)

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 20, 2019, 20:38:18
To me the big difference is that Obama gave his opinion of how he felt about Trudeau and the way he saw things.  The Russians spread lies by creating fake news stories on FB and much more.  I wouldn't even have an issue if Trump (a sitting President) gave his support to Scheer because it's an opinion.  It would be different if he came out saying that voters should vote for the person he wants or he'll ruin Canada.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 20, 2019, 21:24:58
I wish Canadians had more power to vote for the party leader they wanted. Not just given a couple choices on who the party mafia props up.

Nicely summarizing the Green Party platform :)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 21, 2019, 07:58:33
Last roll of the "number of seat" bones courtesy of 338Canada.com (http://338canada.com/), electionarium.com (https://electionarium.com/canadian-federal-election-2019-predictions-results/) and the Election Prediction Project (https://www.electionprediction.org/2019_fed/index.php).

If you haven't voted, get out there & vote.

:pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 12:24:44
338 is predicting 145 for the LPC?

I'm going to go with 135 for the LPC as I think some quiet CPC voters will turn out and play spoiler in a few riding.

They will have the most seats but only by slim margin.

Hopefully both leaders will be gone by the time we have to do this again.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 21, 2019, 12:41:41
The 338 prediction is between 80 and 200, with 145 their best estimate.

But those are huge error bars; the takeaway is "Nobody's certain where this is going to land".
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 21, 2019, 12:45:41
"Nobody's certain where this is going to land".

That's the best prediction I've heard. I'm so glad this is over.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 21, 2019, 12:55:52
That's the best prediction I've heard. I'm so glad this is over.

Nanos is reporting a razor thin Conservative lead

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/files/editorial/politics/nanos/final-poll-20191020.pdf

If so, this might not be over ... until it's over (by next week?).

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 13:04:00
That's the best prediction I've heard. I'm so glad this is over.

I suspect a few weeks of lawyers, challenges and debates over who will govern...unfortunately.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 21, 2019, 13:16:13
Nanos is reporting a razor thin Conservative lead

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/files/editorial/politics/nanos/final-poll-20191020.pdf

If so, this might not be over ... until it's over (by next week?).

I'm not sure how much faith I give Nano's or any other polling agency.  They get it wrong a lot.  When Nano's releases the daily tracking poll, do they ask the same people or ask different people each day?  The reason I'm asking is that a couple days ago the Liberals were up according to Nano's by 2 percent, the next day the CPC had a half a percentage point lead. 

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 13:18:53
They were pretty much on the money last time.

Also, vote share does not mean the same as seats won.  Maybe they lead in popular vote but the seat advantage is still in the LPC favour.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 21, 2019, 13:58:04
Nanos is reporting a razor thin Conservative lead

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/files/editorial/politics/nanos/final-poll-20191020.pdf
With a margin of error of +/- 3.6 points, a 0.8 point difference = neck & neck - seems to be just like everyone else is showing at this point.

If so, this might not be over ... until it's over (by next week?).
:pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 21, 2019, 14:02:57
Polling is mostly BS.  The margins of error are great enough that they don't even matter. Popular vote is also another useless metric. 

The Canadian Electoral System is not one election, it is 338 separate elections.

The polls are highly inaccurate because IOT be accurate, they would need to do 338 separate polls. 

I put no real stock in polls.  The Conservatives could win 190+ seats or they could win 100, the polls cannot predict the moods of each individual election riding.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 21, 2019, 14:04:04
Conservative-Green idea seems pretty solid too come to think of it.

It would be nice to have Trudeau and Scheer shown the door door and have new leadership brought in. It would also be nice to have bigger repercussions for broken promises.


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Furniture on October 21, 2019, 14:22:27
Conservative-Green idea seems pretty solid too come to think of it.

It would be nice to have Trudeau and Scheer shown the door door and have new leadership brought in. It would also be nice to have bigger repercussions for broken promises.

The people in charge of that are making their judgement today. Though I suspect most don't know/care enough to make their judgement fair, and reasoned.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 18:40:25
The people in charge of that are making their judgement today. Though I suspect most don't know/care enough to make their judgement fair, and reasoned.

Maybe. A lot of people I know are making fair and reasoned decisions. ( A few are voting based on fake news and others are voting the same as they always have without any real thought.)  They are just not happy about it.  I wasn’t happy with mine but had very few choices where to park my vote. 

But I haven’t heard anyone say they aren’t voting.

Disclaimer: my statement here is purely anecdotal. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: QV on October 21, 2019, 18:58:36
Given what we all know today, I don't know how anyone in good conscious could possibly vote for the LPC this election cycle.     

If Trudeau had been replaced by a new leader within his party, then I'd be understanding of an LPC vote.  But that party didn't do that so they are all abettors, excepting those who resigned or were forced out.  As it stands today, a vote for the LPC is condoning a very unethical and possibly criminally liable government. 

Shameful.

IMHO.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: BurnDoctor on October 21, 2019, 19:07:52
Given what we all know today, I don't know how anyone in good conscious could possibly vote for the LPC this election cycle.     

If Trudeau had been replaced by a new leader within his party, then I'd be understanding of an LPC vote.  But that party didn't do that so they are all abettors, excepting those who resigned or were forced out.  As it stands today, a vote for the LPC is condoning a very unethical and possibly criminally liable government. 

Shameful.

IMHO.

Yup, what QV said.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 21, 2019, 19:19:24
Decisions, decisions.  Well, for me, it's all over until the next one.  When looking at the choices on the ballot paper, I hadn't really made up my mind to that point.  I hadn't noticed a whole lot of public campaigning on the part of individual candidates; I suppose the expectation was that the Conservative incumbent would easily be re-elected (it is Alberta, after all).  In lawn signs, the Conservative was definitely in the lead  with a sprinkling of NDP and Greens, a few PPC and only one or two Liberal.  Oh, I even saw one sign from the Rhinoceros Party (I should have taken a pic of that one because it was satirically humourous ).  On the ballot only two names were familiar, the incumbent Conservative (my personal dislike of him from even before the 2015 election hasn't changed) and the Christian Heritage candidate, and that because he was the only one who door-knocked in my neighbourhood - I, partly out of courtesy, spoke to him for a couple of minutes and took the opportunity to dissuade him of any notion that simply because I'm retired military I may share his views (I was wearing an old T-shirt from having been there, done that when he unexpectedly showed up and so identified my former profession).

I suppose I could have voted in the advance poll like the 5 million other Canadians who did so.  Depending on voter turnout, it is possible that the advance poll could count for up to almost a third of the votes, but even if it matches the increased turnout of the last election, it will be more than a quarter of the result.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 21, 2019, 19:21:43
Well, the polls in Newfoundland and Labrador close in 40 minutes and the Maritime 30 minutes after that. It will be interesting.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 21, 2019, 19:35:17
Given what we all know today, I don't know how anyone in good conscious could possibly vote for the LPC this election cycle.     

If Trudeau had been replaced by a new leader within his party, then I'd be understanding of an LPC vote.  But that party didn't do that so they are all abettors, excepting those who resigned or were forced out.  As it stands today, a vote for the LPC is condoning a very unethical and possibly criminally liable government. 

Shameful.


IMHO.

Absolutely agree with you.




Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 21, 2019, 20:18:56
My riding is a lock for the CPC anyway, but I ended up casting a protest vote. Neither of the contenders deserved my ballot this time around.

I’m just hoping for a minority, whoever it ends up being. However the balance of power plays out in parliament I’m going to do my best to grit my teeth, embrace the schadenfreude, and at least know that literally almost nobody will be happy.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 20:22:43
My riding is a lock for the CPC anyway, but I ended up casting a protest vote. Neither of the contenders deserved my ballot this time around.

I’m just hoping for a minority, whoever it ends up being. However the balance of power plays out in parliament I’m going to do my best to grit my teeth, embrace the schadenfreude, and at least know that literally almost nobody will be happy.

Same.  I’ll be happy with a minority.  Hopefully get new leaders.

Bonus is if my current MP who is not very likeable gets the boot.  Has nothing to do with his political stripe but he’s a career politician who does his best to be detestable.  He’ll likely win though. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 21, 2019, 20:23:51
It would be nice if both the Conservatives and Liberals were given a time out for 4 years and weren't eligible to lead.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 21, 2019, 20:35:48
It would be nice if both the Conservatives and Liberals were given a time out for 4 years and weren't eligible to lead.

You mean let the NDP and Green govern?? If either one of those parties got their hands on the piggy bank the country would be in the poor house for next century.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 20:38:15
You mean let the NDP and Green govern?? If either one of those parties got their hands on the piggy bank the country would be in the poor house for next century.

I’m pretty sure it was more of a sentiment than an endorsement for the others.  I’ll settle for a benevolent dictator and council of common sense folks for five years so we can reset.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 21, 2019, 20:40:54
I'm still longing for the Rhinos...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 21, 2019, 20:41:20
It would be nice if both the Conservatives and Liberals were given a time out for 4 years and weren't eligible to lead.

A PPC/ Green coalition for 4 years?

I could deal with that.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 21, 2019, 20:43:29
Initial (very early) poll results from NFLD have the Liberals in the lead in 7 ridings and the CPC in 1.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 21, 2019, 20:53:22
I'm still longing for the Rhinos...

Yes, nice to see them back on the ballot... :cheers:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 20:57:11
Initial (very early) poll results from NFLD have the Liberals in the lead in 7 ridings and the CPC in 1.

Some close results in some of those...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 21, 2019, 21:01:43
Initial (very early) poll results from NFLD have the Liberals in the lead in 7 ridings and the CPC in 1.

Which is impressive, since NL has only seven seats total ;)

The forecasts at ElectionPrediction and Electionarium both say the split will be 6 Liberals and an NDP pickup in St John's East.
https://www.electionprediction.org/2019_fed/p_10al.php
https://electionarium.com/newfoundland-and-labrador-federal-election-2019-seat-predictions-results/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 21, 2019, 21:08:37
Some close results in some of those...

Watching Global News and initial results show the CPC doing very good in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 21:13:22
Watching Global News and initial results show the CPC doing very good in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.

Something like 14 ridings are close.  If the CPC get double digits in Atlantic Canada they will be off to a decent start. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 21, 2019, 21:13:56
Watching Global News and initial results show the CPC doing very good in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.

Spoke to soon , Libs making a comeback.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 21:16:26
Spoke to soon , Libs making a comeback.

Still early.  Some tight races.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 21, 2019, 21:31:26
Gonna be a bit more time yet before enough polls are in to really make many calls there... But the Liberals have definitely taken some hits.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 21:36:15
Quebec polls starting to come in.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: my72jeep on October 21, 2019, 22:05:35
Gonna be a bit more time yet before enough polls are in to really make many calls there... But the Liberals have definitely taken some hits.
We can only hope the liberals take enough hits to sink.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 21, 2019, 22:07:10
Gonna be a bit more time yet before enough polls are in to really make many calls there... But the Liberals have definitely taken some hits.

NB has panned out about what I expected.  Atlantic Canada is super predictable, there are a tonne of ridings that Adolf Hitler could run for one of the major two parties and he would win.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 22:17:21
Green’s have a real chance of winning a seat in Atlantic Canada at this point. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 21, 2019, 22:30:18
Green’s have a real chance of winning a seat in Atlantic Canada at this point.

Greens are gonna have a few surprises for us, I think. They’re tallying surprise 2nd or 3rd in a number of ridings- hell, they may have taken Freddy when they were polling in third. I believe we’ll see the major parties accepting the necessity of paying more heed to environmental and climate issues. I’m ok with the thought that support for the Greens will pull the other platforms modestly in that direction.

And as I post this, everywhere else except BC and the Yukon is closing. 262 ridings about to start opening boxes.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 22:45:06
Mad max falling behind lol.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 21, 2019, 22:49:33
Mad max falling behind lol.

Just saw that, granted only 5/242 polls reporting. I won’t get my hopes up yet, as much as a PPC shutout would please me.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 21, 2019, 22:59:18
Global News is predicting a Liberal Minority government. Lib: 54; CPC: 38; BQ: 11; NDP:7, and Grn:1

Elections Canada predictions very similar.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 21, 2019, 23:10:33
CTV is also calling it for the Liberals, though not yet minority/majority. That’s an early call.

The devil being in the details, let’s see how the rest stack up...

Let’s also see if the CPC can manage to suck less in their next leadership election, and I’ll be curious to see if PPC made the difference in many/any ridings to the detriment of the Conservatives.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 23:11:37
CBC just made the call as well.  Just not how it will play out.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 21, 2019, 23:13:19
A good night.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: BurnDoctor on October 21, 2019, 23:22:09
A good night.

NOT a good night. It says that our country is ok with giving someone a pass for gross incompetence, ethics violations, financial mismanagement, misogyny, etc.

I weep for this country.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 21, 2019, 23:23:51
Liberals making it official: Liberal Minority govt (Lib:144; CPC: 102: BQ: 31: NDP:21). That's even before any results come in from western Canada.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Baden Guy on October 21, 2019, 23:24:58
CBC just made the call as well.  Just not how it will play out.

CBC just called it a Liberal minority.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 21, 2019, 23:27:55
Some party leaders should be careful: knives are being sharpened.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 21, 2019, 23:28:04
NOT a good night. It says that our country is ok with giving someone a pass for gross incompetence, ethics violations, financial mismanagement, misogyny, etc.

I weep for this country.
I feel like its a good night.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 21, 2019, 23:28:29
How long could we expect a minority government to last?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 21, 2019, 23:30:03
NOT a good night. It says that our country is ok with giving someone a pass for gross incompetence, ethics violations, financial mismanagement, misogyny, etc.

I weep for this country.

I'm sure a lot of Canadians don't care about silly things like ethics if it doesn't directly impact them.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PPCLI Guy on October 21, 2019, 23:31:29
How long could we expect a minority government to last?

History suggests 18-24 months.  Time enough for the Conservatives to search their souls and chose a leader of their party ready to be the leader of the the country.....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 21, 2019, 23:32:52
How long could we expect a minority government to last?
Eighteen months is my call. But I have often been wrong before.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 21, 2019, 23:38:55
I'm sure I'll be proven wrong but I think this will last because no other party wants to see the CPC running the country.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 21, 2019, 23:43:22
History suggests 18-24 months.  Time enough for the Conservatives to search their souls and chose a leader of their party ready to be the leader of the the country.....

... and the best man for that job is probably a female conservative MP, IMHO
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 21, 2019, 23:43:59
I'm sure I'll be proven wrong but I think this will last because no other party wants to see the CPC running the country.

Unless the NDP think they can steal it... I'd love CPC minority with NDP official opposition.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 23:47:07
Lisa Raitt, currently behind.

Jane philpot, JWR behind as well.


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: BurnDoctor on October 21, 2019, 23:49:47
Lisa Raitt, currently behind.

Jane philpot, JWR behind as well.

Does that lend credence to the idea that Liberals are fake feminists like their leader?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 21, 2019, 23:51:06
Mad max.  Done.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 21, 2019, 23:53:13
How long could we expect a minority government to last?

The Bloc can prop the Liberals up on their own. The NDP/Green or possibly NDP on their own will probably also be able to. The Liberals will have a lot of options... They’re good for a while; they won’t fall until both Bloc and NDP each think that they stand to gain from an early election.

We’re also sitting with not many polls reporting still in many areas, so little is yet carved in stone.

Beauce is being called for the CPC. The PPC look to have been completely shut out, which I think is a very good thing for Canada.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 22, 2019, 00:00:18
The NDP is broke and won’t want another campaign anytime soon.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2019, 00:08:05
Are Conservatives winning the popular vote?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 22, 2019, 00:09:33
Are Conservatives winning the popular vote?

Pretty much what the pollsters were saying.  33% each.  CPC à fraction ahead.


Correction:  34 for the CPC, 33.7 for the LPC
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: BurnDoctor on October 22, 2019, 00:11:34
Welp, I’m out. First thing in the morning. Hope to see some of you over on army.ab someday.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2019, 00:12:55
Pretty much what the pollsters were saying.  33% each.  CPC à fraction ahead.


Correction:  34 for the CPC, 33.7 for the LPC

Mariomike does this mean you're going to be arguing that Scheer should have won the election? ;)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 22, 2019, 00:13:55
Welp, I’m out. First thing in the morning. Hope to see some of you over on army.ab someday.

You’ll be fine.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 22, 2019, 00:15:24
The CPC ran a terrible campaign. I hope heads roll.

On the Liberal side, it looks like Ralph Goodale might be finished in Regina.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: tomahawk6 on October 22, 2019, 00:16:45
So the Libs will form a minority government or at least try to. A new election in 18 to 24 months ?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 22, 2019, 00:20:40
So the Libs will form a minority government or at least try to. A new election in 18 to 24 months ?

That’s a possible timeframe.  But the NDP is broke and needs time to fill their coffers. They will prop up the LPC for a while.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 22, 2019, 00:21:37
So the Libs will form a minority government or at least try to. A new election in 18 to 24 months ?

Yes- they are only about a dozen short of a majority. I would expect they will make deal with the NDP. Or the NDP may decide to just support them on an issue by issue basis.

The interesting thing is what this means for Elizabeth May. She might be finished, too. 3(ish) seats for the Greens is not the bearkthrough they were hoping for.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 22, 2019, 00:24:09
Goodale is out.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 22, 2019, 00:24:29
The willingness of an opposition party to go along with defeating a minority will depend on whether it has funds to fight an election and whether it likes the leader it has.  If, for example, the NDP is low on funds and decides to blame underperformance (looking at about 25 elected/leading at this moment, with final poll aggregations having predicted 32+) on Singh, the NDP will not be in a hurry to defeat the government.

Likewise, if the CPC fails to hit 125 to 130, it might want to replace Scheer before defeating a minority.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2019, 00:25:44
Goodale is out.
Where do I go to see if Mark holland is out?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 22, 2019, 00:27:16
Where do I go to see if Mark holland is out?
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/election2019/results/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 22, 2019, 00:28:43
I think Singh will stay on.  Early predictions had them losing party status. He may still have his party’s support.

Scheer once again put himself into a corner when he says that when the party that doesn’t win the most seats it is the modern convention that the leader steps down.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2019, 00:37:36
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/election2019/results/

crap. He's a real bag of hammers. That's too bad but at least Goodale is gone.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 22, 2019, 00:46:47
JWR just pulled ahead.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 22, 2019, 01:16:22
The NDP got smashed.  They had a real chance to put a francophone in charge which could have soldified Quebec for them but they blew it pandering the base.  I hope Singh is done, they are going nowhere with him in charge.

Cons need to find a leader with some curb appeal, looks and a bit of charisma.  Andrew Scheer is like a mini-Harper

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 22, 2019, 06:46:31
JWR kept her seat by a fairly comfortable margin. Good for her, getting elected as an independent is exceedingly rare.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 22, 2019, 07:17:46
Latest #'s via Elections Canada (https://enr.elections.ca/National.aspx?lang=e) (as of this post - click on link for the latest) and 338Canada.ca (http://338canada.com/), with a reminder for everyone of all team jersey colours also attached ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: tomahawk6 on October 22, 2019, 08:36:46
As predicted the Libs are now a minority party so who will their junior partner be ?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-election-results-2019-cbc-leaders-1.5329485
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 22, 2019, 09:32:14
Clearly the NDP. The only question is how hard they're going to squeeze the Liberals in order to compensate for that support.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2019, 09:39:33
If I was Trudeau I'd dress as Kirk Lazarus for Halloween just to remind Canada who's boss.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 22, 2019, 10:02:19
JWR kept her seat by a fairly comfortable margin. Good for her, getting elected as an independent is exceedingly rare.

What would happen, do you suppose, if the Conservatives nominated her for Speaker? The numbers are there for her to be elected (even without the Liberals) and she would be in Trudeau's face, every day.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 22, 2019, 10:19:32
What would happen, do you suppose, if the Conservatives nominated her for Speaker?
Actually, that would be brilliant... and not just for torqueing Trudeau.  She's very competent, has a track record of ethical behaviour and not being cowed into inappropriate decision-making, and couldn't really accomplish much as an Independent.  I think she'd be a very good Speaker.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 22, 2019, 10:36:53
So, Cabinet '19: With Goodale losing, who gets Public Security?  A very high profile position that's now vacant...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 22, 2019, 10:59:35
Bill Blair?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 22, 2019, 11:00:07
So, Cabinet '19: With Goodale losing, who gets Public Security?  A very high profile position that's now vacant...
Jaspal Atwal?   :whistle:

After all, the 2018 Public Report on the Terrorism Threat to Canada  deleted references to Sikh terrorism so Trudeau could play dress-up, yet again, in Vancouver's Vaisakhi parade.  Air India 182/Narita airport bombing?  Indira Gandhi's assassination?  Tamil Tiger child suicide bombers?  All misunderstandings.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jonezy76 on October 22, 2019, 11:00:44
So, Cabinet '19: With Goodale losing, who gets Public Security?  A very high profile position that's now vacant...

Blair or Holland?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 22, 2019, 12:05:59
Actually, that would be brilliant... and not just for torqueing Trudeau.  She's very competent, has a track record of ethical behaviour and not being cowed into inappropriate decision-making, and couldn't really accomplish much as an Independent.  I think she'd be a very good Speaker.

... and should be in charge of making audio tapes of all the sessions! :)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: tomahawk6 on October 22, 2019, 12:16:35
While the conservatives swept oil country they now must pick up more seats in Ontario would that be a correct assessment ?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2019, 12:19:36
While the conservatives swept oil country they now must pick up more seats in Ontario would that be a correct assessment ?

Toronto and Quebec decide who wins.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 22, 2019, 12:42:16
Point of interest- I crunches the numbers this AM. There are six seats where the Liberals beat the CPC by fewer votes than the PPC received. It wouldn’t affect the balance of power at all, but it’s interesting.

Two in Atlantic, one in Ontario, two in BC, and Yukon.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 22, 2019, 12:59:59
What would happen, do you suppose, if the Conservatives nominated her for Speaker? The numbers are there for her to be elected (even without the Liberals) and she would be in Trudeau's face, every day.

No, the Speaker should be (usually is) a seasoned parliamentarian who has no personal political agenda (or opinion, or profile) so public that it detracts from carrying out his duties in the chair - the ultimate gray man (John Bercow is an aberration, an entertaining and effective one to be sure, but still an aberration).  In the current Canadian political climate finding someone who has nothing more to offer his party, or no longer has an accepting audience wanting to hear his/her different vision for Canada, but still wants the perks of being at the centre of parliament would be difficult.  Following the sometimes practise of minority governments installing someone from the opposition, the obvious choice would a man with experience - Andrew Sheer.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 22, 2019, 13:08:39
No, the Speaker should be (usually is) a seasoned parliamentarian who has no personal political agenda (or opinion, or profile) so public that it detracts from carrying out his duties in the chair - the ultimate gray man (John Bercow is an aberration, an entertaining and effective one to be sure, but still an aberration).  In the current Canadian political climate finding someone who has nothing more to offer his party, or no longer has an accepting audience wanting to hear his/her different vision for Canada, but still wants the perks of being at the centre of parliament would be difficult.  Following the sometimes practise of minority governments installing someone from the opposition, the obvious choice would a man with experience - Andrew Sheer.

After being the leader of a party and running for PM that is the last person who should be considered.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 22, 2019, 13:08:56
Things I found noteworthy:

1) Poll aggregation predictions were pretty good.

1a) LPC overperformed and CPC underperformed slightly (relative to polls); NDP badly underperformed.

2) LPC vote efficiency is confirmed. 

2a) People who favour election reform are foolish to believe any LPC promise except one that ends with a proposal designed to retain LPC advantage (eg. ranked voting).

3) "Handmaiden-to-Liberals" strategies are losers for the NDP (Mulcair, Singh). 

3a) Without someone like Jack Layton who understands that the path to NDP government necessarily means crushing the LPC between the NDP and CPC, the NDP will never govern Canada.

4) Scheer isn't good enough, and the CPC platform was too weak.  (Customary wisdom was borne out - an opposition generally can not coast to victory on the scandals and mistakes of the governing party; it must offer something substantial.)

5) PPC didn't have much effect, and hopefully is dead.

6) I expect the Democrats to do their best to trash-talk the US economy into a recession over the next year to weaken the Republicans; if so, Canada will likely be affected; if so, the LPC+NDP get their wish from 2008: to run an economic recovery and apply progressive principles and policies for a change.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 22, 2019, 13:29:07
I heard two people at work today say they had planned to vote CPC but once they got to the polls changed their mind as they didn't trust Scheer. Part of it was that they felt it would be a return to Harper policies.


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 22, 2019, 13:52:49
I heard two people at work today say they had planned to vote CPC but once they got to the polls changed their mind as they didn't trust Scheer. Part of it was that they felt it would be a return to Harper policies.

Here in lies the problem: Who was JT running against? A memory of Stephen Harper and not the current leader of the Conservatives.

And in my estimation Harper was a good PM.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2019, 15:11:04
Quote from: mariomike

2019 Canadian federal election

In the popular vote, polls show both parties virtually tied at about 32%.
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/2019-canadian-federal-election-live-updates-and-analysis-on-the-vote/
But if even 1 more person voted for Scheer than Trudeau he won the popular vote and should prime minister, right?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 22, 2019, 15:15:36
But if even 1 more person voted for Scheer than Trudeau he won the popular vote and should prime minister, right?

I don't think Canadian Politics is the place to argue American politics.

The point I made in American Politics was that 2.9 million votes represents a considerable margin.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on October 22, 2019, 16:21:02
I don't think Canadian Politics is the place to argue American politics.

The point I made in American Politics was that 2.9 million votes represents a considerable margin.

Wow.....only when it suits my purpose
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 22, 2019, 16:28:31
Wow.....only when it suits my purpose

When it's almost 3 million votes ( 2016 ), and ten million ( 2018 ) it's pretty hard to ignore.

Quote
2019 Canadian federal election

In the popular vote, polls show both parties virtually tied at about 32%.
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/2019-canadian-federal-election-live-updates-and-analysis-on-the-vote/

But, if you and Jarnhamar want to argue American Politics, perhaps American Politics might be a better forum.




Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: QV on October 22, 2019, 17:25:09
When it's almost 3 million votes ( 2016 ), and ten million ( 2018 ) it's pretty hard to ignore.

But, if you and Jarnhamar want to argue American Politics, perhaps American Politics might be a better forum.



The CPC received about 250,000 more votes than the LPC... The US is about 10x bigger, so if you factor that number by 10, it is a similar margin.  So not insignificant, as you are alluding
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2019, 17:40:29
Quote
The CPC received about 250,000 more votes than the LPC

Holy macaroni. 250'000 in a country of 37.5 million [where only 62%(?) voted].

I thought maybe they won by 1 or 2 votes.

Sure bet Trudeau is glad he went back on his promise about electoral reform  :nod:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 22, 2019, 17:49:49
Sure bet Trudeau is glad he went back on his promise about electoral reform  :nod:
That was guaranteed once someone explained to him how much in decreases the odds of any party, including his own, ever getting a majority ever again.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 22, 2019, 17:52:05
We tried and tried already the Reform party was created to bring Western values on the East and we were rejected they made fun of us and belittled us Harper made it for awhile but now any sign of the Conservatives that is influenced by the West is again rejected by the East we’ve done all we can do it’s time to move forward the West East political difference isn’t going to break ever.
Western populism is now for independence and we’ll succeed.

Politics in Canada, Conservatives (Harper) governs for a term or two, then Liberals (Trudeau) govern for a term or two. It goes back and forth a lot. When the CPC are in liberals whine and cry, and vice versa.

Maybe you should take a look at the percentages of people who voted for which parties as a starting point. Then Assume conservatives are the only ones crying about separation, but even then only some conservatives are.

The CPC lost, because we presented an underwhelming leader to the nation. He was not able to mobilize people to vote for him, because he was to blasé. I think politics in Canada are not anywhere near as polarized as you think they are and that 90% of western Canadian's, do not care anywhere near as much as you appear to care. But if I am bored later maybe I'll look at the issue deeper, I just can't see traction for it, to me it just feels like pouting kids.

Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 22, 2019, 17:53:32
Holy macaroni. 250'000 in a country of 37.5 million [where only 62%(?) voted].

I thought maybe they won by 1 or 2 votes.

Sure bet Trudeau is glad he went back on his promise about electoral reform  :nod:
I don't see how the CPC ever has a path to government again in a proportional representation scenario.

I would imagine the CPC is the most thankful for this.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 22, 2019, 17:58:12
What would happen, do you suppose, if the Conservatives nominated her for Speaker?
Gold, Jerry - GOLD!  May be one of the few things most folks would agree on, especially with a secret ballot vote.

Stealing that for a meme, bud  ;D
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 22, 2019, 17:59:58
If we are going to argue about the Popular Vote margin in Canadian versus American elections,

Quote
2019 Canadian federal election

Popular vote margin

LPC: 33.10% 

CPC: 34.44% 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Canadian_federal_election

Quote
2018 United States elections

Popular vote margin

Democratic +8.6%

https://cookpolitical.com/analysis/house/house-charts/2018-house-popular-vote-tracker




Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Colin P on October 22, 2019, 18:03:57
Harper was a good leader and PM, but his PMO basically muzzled and denutted his MP, causing them not to respond well to issues in their own ridings. The legislation they wrote was sloppy and poor executed. Far to much control form a small element of the party.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 22, 2019, 18:30:21
Here in lies the problem: Who was JT running against? A memory of Stephen Harper and not the current leader of the Conservatives.

And in my estimation Harper was a good PM.

Harper was the right PM at the right time.  The World was in severe financial turmoil and we needed a technocrat to steer the chip and keep the bank drafts safe.

Now things are all sunny, unemployment is at a record low, Canadians don't want a party pooper like Harper spoiling all the fun.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brihard on October 22, 2019, 20:11:14
A couple points are coming to mind.

While the Americans would love our resources, I'm not sure they want to expand to include parts of Canada.  I also don't think the majority of people in those provinces would want to become American.

My other point is that Scheer is just plain negative and filled with hate when he talks.  I'm listening to Jason Kenney speak right now and Lisa Raitt earlier and they both sound like leaders when they talk.  Even Scheers concession speech was negative.  If the CPC ever want to have a chance they need to replace him fast.

Scheer, and specifically his hard social conservative streak, is a large part of why I flinched in the waning hours of the election and ended up not voting conservative. I want him gone. We deserve much better than either of our major parties have given us.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Chief Engineer on October 22, 2019, 20:11:44
I would say expect to have a leadership review sometime in 2020 with Rosa Ambrose or Peter Mackay becoming leader.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Larry Strong on October 22, 2019, 20:57:59
Somehow I don't see this happening.....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/andrew-scheer-staying-on-leader-1.5330762

Shared as per.....

Quote
Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer said today he has no plans to resign, and vowed instead to stay at the helm of his party and take another swing at defeating Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in the next election.

Speaking to reporters in Regina this morning, Scheer said he had hoped for better results but is happy with the "significant gains" the Conservatives achieved in this election.

"We point to the fact that we won the popular vote, a million more votes for our party last night than than ever before, and that we have the strongest opposition in Canadian history," Scheer said. "More people voted for me and the Conservative platform than any other party."

The party won roughly 300,000 more votes last night than its previous best, in 2011 — not the 1 million Scheer cited.

"This was the first step in a process to replace Justin Trudeau's government ... we'll take the next few days to prepare the ground work for the next campaign. We'll continue to prepare and fight for when the government falls," Scheer said.

Scheer managed to bolster his party's popular support thanks in part to lopsided victories in Alberta and Saskatchewan, where the party achieved record results.

Andrew Scheer falls short — but vows Conservatives will be ready next time
The Conservatives faltered in the rest of the country, failing to make significant inroads in Atlantic Canada, Quebec or Ontario.

In fact, the Conservative Party won more votes in Alberta alone than it received in Quebec, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador combined.

Compared to 2011, when the Conservatives won a convincing majority government, the party achieved lower popular vote support levels in every province except Alberta and Saskatchewan.

In once solidly blue ridings like Central Nova and South Shore-St. Margaret's in Nova Scotia, and Milton in Ontario, the Liberal candidates easily bested their Tory opponents.

Despite a promising start to the campaign in Quebec, the Conservatives actually lost seats in that province.

The party emerged as a starkly more regional entity, with its support largely concentrated in Western Canada. There, the party's base turned out in record numbers, thanks in part to hugely unpopular Liberal policies that are seen as constituting an attack on the country's oil and gas sector.

While Scheer promised to stay on as leader, the choice ultimately rests with the Conservative Party membership.

Under the party's constitution, if it fails to form a government — and if the leader has not yet formally signalled an intention to resign — then delegates can vote at the next party convention to hold a leadership race.

The party launches a leadership race if more than 50 per cent of members at the party convention vote in favour of one. The next Conservative convention happens in 2020.



Cheers
Larry
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 22, 2019, 21:12:19
We tried and tried already the Reform party was created to bring Western values on the East and we were rejected they made fun of us and belittled us Harper made it for awhile but now any sign of the Conservatives that is influenced by the West is again rejected by the East we’ve done all we can do it’s time to move forward the West East political difference isn’t going to break ever.
Western populism is now for independence and we’ll succeed.

Reform (and Alliance) was seen by everyone else in non-Wild Rose country as extreme and close-minded right.

Harper reneging in his deal with Peter MacKay to share leadership in due course, once he comfortably had subsumed the PC support that gave home the full majority, was a dick move, that the rest of Canada didn’t forget. Try to romanticize “The West” bringing it’s warm, open-style heartiness and value based approach Eastward is to totally fail to understand why, for all the decent things that Harper did, like implement fiscal responsibility, the majority of people eschewed their mean-spirited, sanctimonious forcing of the fundamentalist elements of the CPC/Alliance/Reform (far removed from the good ‘ole PC center-to-right base) and took Harper for what he was...a guy who got it 75% right, but lost it with pushing for the last 25% that the citizenry wasn’t willing to give him. It was poorly played leading up to 2015, and the results proved it then, and the milquetoast Scheer proved it again in 2019...and this coming from pretty much a life PC supporter who lost a viable option from 2015 onwards. Scheer offered nothing for the disenfranchised middle of the road (overlapping Blue Liberals) ex-PC crowd. CPC is seen East of Weyburn, SK as Reform by another name. Far right, not having tolerance to represent slightly-left-of-centre to centre-right.

‘Conservatives’, for whatever those are these days, are doomed until a more moderate ‘fiscally conservative, socially progressive’ tone is championed.

Scheer saying he’ll fight on demonstrates precisely why he was so ably capable of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory in the election. It’s not at all that others don’t get the Western Prairies (AB/SK not w BC), but that the “All (including up to fringe right) or Nothing” brand of conservatism is old and falls flat in today’s Canada. 

:2c:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2019, 21:49:42
Quite irritated Scheer decided to stay on.

Is there a way the party can force picking a new leader?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 22, 2019, 22:15:58
Smallest vote margins - a twitter thread by David Akin:

https://twitter.com/davidakin/status/1186800932824244224

Smallest margins of #elxn43 victory - raw votes:
1 Yukon #LPC @LarryBagnell  72
2 Richmond Hill #LPC @MajidJowhari  112
3 Québec #LPC @jyduclos 215
4 Kitchener--Conestoga #LPC @votetimlouis 273
5 Hochelaga #LPC @SorayaMartinezF 319
6 Port Moody--Coquitlam Nelly Shin #CPC 333


Looking at them: Yukon and the two Ontario ridings would have been taken by the CPC if all PPC votes had gone their way.  The two Quebec ridings had the BQ in close second places.

And in BC, it was a close 3 way race, with the PC candidate edging her way ahead of the Liberal and NDP - all were around 30%.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FSTO on October 22, 2019, 22:25:02
Quite irritated Scheer decided to stay on.

Is there a way the party can force picking a new leader?

Yep. If enough party members want him out, he's gone.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2019, 23:57:08
SNC-Lavalin Stock Price Soars After Trudeau Win
14% in a day.  :orly:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffingtonpost.ca/amp/entry/snc-lavalin-stock-price_ca_5daf435ce4b0422422ccf6be/
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 23, 2019, 00:31:53
It's not East / West; it's urban vs everything else.


https://twitter.com/j_mcelroy/status/1186806312241250304

There are 65 federal ridings in Canada with at least 2,500 people per square kilometre.

The Conservative Party didn't win a single one.

There are 123 ridings in this country with between 150 and 2,500 people per square kilometre, from Etobicoke North to Durham. 

The Liberals won 64 of them, the Conservatives 41.

And there are 150 ridings in this country with fewer than 150 people per square kilometre (symmetry!).

The Conservatives won 82 seats, the Liberals 40. 

Tired: Canada's East vs. West divide.
Wired: Canada Urban vs. Everything Else divide.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: VinceW on October 23, 2019, 00:48:45
Reform (and Alliance) was seen by everyone else in non-Wild Rose country as extreme and close-minded right.

Harper reneging in his deal with Peter MacKay to share leadership in due course, once he comfortably had subsumed the PC support that gave home the full majority, was a dick move, that the rest of Canada didn’t forget. Try to romanticize “The West” bringing it’s warm, open-style heartiness and value based approach Eastward is to totally fail to understand why, for all the decent things that Harper did, like implement fiscal responsibility, the majority of people eschewed their mean-spirited, sanctimonious forcing of the fundamentalist elements of the CPC/Alliance/Reform (far removed from the good ‘ole PC center-to-right base) and took Harper for what he was...a guy who got it 75% right, but lost it with pushing for the last 25% that the citizenry wasn’t willing to give him. It was poorly played leading up to 2015, and the results proved it then, and the milquetoast Scheer proved it again in 2019...and this coming from pretty much a life PC supporter who lost a viable option from 2015 onwards. Scheer offered nothing for the disenfranchised middle of the road (overlapping Blue Liberals) ex-PC crowd. CPC is seen East of Weyburn, SK as Reform by another name. Far right, not having tolerance to represent slightly-left-of-centre to centre-right.

‘Conservatives’, for whatever those are these days, are doomed until a more moderate ‘fiscally conservative, socially progressive’ tone is championed.

Scheer saying he’ll fight on demonstrates precisely why he was so ably capable of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory in the election. It’s not at all that others don’t get the Western Prairies (AB/SK not w BC), but that the “All (including up to fringe right) or Nothing” brand of conservatism is old and falls flat in today’s Canada. 

:2c:

Regards
G2G

Reform was popular everywhere in Western Canada they weren’t exclusively popular in Alberta the East is going to change for us as much as we’re going to change for them time to move on when we’re seen as the problem and a nuisance to the Eastern part of the country we’re not going to take their abuse no more.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 23, 2019, 09:54:36
Reform was popular everywhere in Western Canada they weren’t exclusively popular in Alberta the East is going to change for us as much as we’re going to change for them time to move on when we’re seen as the problem and a nuisance to the Eastern part of the country we’re not going to take their abuse no more.
I find this amusing,  because in my opinion, it is rather misplaced.

There are 5 parties in parliament.

3 aggressively anti pipeline.

1 so so on pipelines

1 aggressively pro pipeline.

The 3 anti pipeline parties has 59 seats out of 338.

The two parties that want at least one more pipeline won 278 seats.

The liberals wom the most seats despite having bought a pipeline.

So its not the reason that the conservatives lost. It was the social reasons that urban canada shunned the CPC. Get a leader that doubles down on anti abortion, marches in gay pride parades,  embraces cannabis and Conservatives would start to make inroads in urban(eastern)  canada.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: upandatom on October 23, 2019, 10:05:22
I find this amusing,  because in my opinion, it is rather misplaced.

There are 4 parties in parliament.

3 aggressively anti pipeline.

1 so so on pipelines

1 aggressively pro pipeline.

The 3 anti pipeline parties has 59 seats out of 338.

The two parties that want at least one more pipeline won 278 seats.

The liberals wom the most seats despite having bought a pipeline.

So its not the reason that the conservatives lost. It was the social reasons that urban canada shunned the CPC. Get a leader that doubles down on anti abortion, marches in gay pride parades,  embraces cannabis and Conservatives would start to make inroads in urban(eastern)  canada.

NAIL on the head
We need Fiscal responsibility, lack of corruption, and proven progressive thinking.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: VinceW on October 23, 2019, 10:14:29
I find this amusing,  because in my opinion, it is rather misplaced.

There are 5 parties in parliament.

3 aggressively anti pipeline.

1 so so on pipelines

1 aggressively pro pipeline.

The 3 anti pipeline parties has 59 seats out of 338.

The two parties that want at least one more pipeline won 278 seats.

The liberals wom the most seats despite having bought a pipeline.

So its not the reason that the conservatives lost. It was the social reasons that urban canada shunned the CPC. Get a leader that doubles down on anti abortion, marches in gay pride parades,  embraces cannabis and Conservatives would start to make inroads in urban(eastern)  canada.

The anti pipeline anti Alberta party is already in power if it wasn’t for bills C-48 and 69 we wouldn’t be going down this direction now.
Like I mentioned in another post we’re going to change ourselves as much as the East will change for us.
That’s how it is we’re not going to sell out and be afraid of who we are.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 23, 2019, 10:56:50
Typical Liberal bias at the CBC...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/neil-macdonald-trudeau-opinion-1.5331427

Listen to what they say about Justin Trudeau: "But what really soured former supporters, I'd submit, was his cynical, patronizing, condescending, arrogant, insulting belief that voters don't deserve a straight answer – that preachy, gauzy, meaningless aphorisms will suffice."
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 23, 2019, 13:27:15
>Like I mentioned in another post we’re ...

For very small values of "we".
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 23, 2019, 14:05:02
Not withstanding the popular vote between the Cons and Libs.  The disparity between the NDP, Greens and Bloc is interesting. 

7.7% of country (Bloc) gained 32 seats, while 15.9% received 24 (NDP) and 6.5% received 3 (Greens). 


(https://drive.google.com/open?id=1iaS_qO6nhXun8GM8feBPy7USqKTPXcYB)


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CountDC on October 23, 2019, 14:08:19
Here in lies the problem: Who was JT running against? A memory of Stephen Harper and not the current leader of the Conservatives.

And in my estimation Harper was a good PM.

agree fully and unfortunately the conservatives/Scheer did nothing really to change it.

The best I hoped for was a Conservative minority and NDP holding the candle to them.  I don't see Trudeau propped up by NDP as a good thing.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 23, 2019, 14:54:35
Not withstanding the popular vote between the Cons and Libs.  The disparity between the NDP, Greens and Bloc is interesting. 

7.7% of country (Bloc) gained 32 seats, while 15.9% received 24 (NDP) and 6.5% received 3 (Greens). 


(https://drive.google.com/open?id=1iaS_qO6nhXun8GM8feBPy7USqKTPXcYB)

Popular vote is the most useless statistic metric in Canada.  Why?  Because we have 338 separate elections as opposed to one election.  The Bloc received 7.7% of the vote but that 7.7% was concentrated entirely in one Province.  The Bloc only ran 78 candidates while the Green's ran 338.  Taking this in to consideration, The Bloc's "Vote Efficiency" is basically on par with the Liberals in Quebec and is better than the Conservatives.

A more useful metric would be % of popular vote broken down by region.  I would break it down like this: 

British Columbia - Popular Vote
Prairies (Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba) - Popular Vote
Ontario - Popular Vote
Quebec - Popular Vote
Atlantic/North - Popular Vote

You could also break it down by % of popular vote based on population density which would also be useful.

% popular vote High Pop Density
% Popular vote Medium Pop Density
% Pop vote Low Pop Density

This map does a pretty good job of showing the issues:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canadian_Federal_Election_2019_-_Results_by_Riding.png)

It shows the riding victors but also uses a colour coding system to identify % of popular vote in each individual riding.

The Conservatives got 34% of their popular vote, but you can see from this diagram that if you remove their 60%+ "popular vote" in the Rural Prairies, you can see that the Conservatives did very poorly in the other Regions.

The NDP, Greens, Bloc Quebecois are for all intents and purposes Regional/Special Interest Parties.  The Conservatives judging by the election result, are also a Regional/Rural Party.  None of these parties enjoy widespread support across all regions like the Liberals do.

It would be nice to see some actual logical statistical analysis in our electoral system but the Media and General Public seem very oblivious to it all.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 23, 2019, 15:14:38
Popular vote is the most useless statistic metric in Canada.  Why?  Because we have 338 separate elections as opposed to one election.  The Bloc received 7.7% of the vote but that 7.7% was concentrated entirely in one Province.  The Bloc only ran 78 candidates while the Green's ran 338.  Taking this in to consideration, The Bloc's "Vote Efficiency" is basically on par with the Liberals in Quebec and is better than the Conservatives.

A more useful metric would be % of popular vote broken down by region.  I would break it down like this: 

British Columbia - Popular Vote
Prairies (Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba) - Popular Vote
Ontario - Popular Vote
Quebec - Popular Vote
Atlantic/North - Popular Vote

You could also break it down by % of popular vote based on population density which would also be useful.

% popular vote High Pop Density
% Popular vote Medium Pop Density
% Pop vote Low Pop Density

This map does a pretty good job of showing the issues:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canadian_Federal_Election_2019_-_Results_by_Riding.png)

It shows the riding victors but also uses a colour coding system to identify % of popular vote in each individual riding.

The Conservatives got 34% of their popular vote, but you can see from this diagram that if you remove their 70%+ "popular vote" in the Prairies, you can see that the Conservatives did very poorly in the other Regions.

The NDP, Greens, Bloc Quebecois are for all intents and purposes Regional/Special Interest Parties.  The Conservatives judging by the election result, are also a Regional/Rural Party.  None of these parties enjoy widespread support across all regions like the Liberals do.

It would be nice to see some actual logical statistical analysis in our electoral system but the Media and General Public seem very oblivious to it all.

Thanks tips.  We are all well aware that popular vote means diddley squat.  At this point it should be a sticky on the homepage.

Having said that when we see disparity like that we as a nation have to come to the conclusion that something is wrong with our system.  Thats not slight margins.  Thats big margins.

If I was the NDP, and thank the lord I am not sir, I would only offer support to Liberal platforms in exchange for drastic electoral reform.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 23, 2019, 15:44:03
Thanks tips.  We are all well aware that popular vote means diddley squat.  At this point it should be a sticky on the homepage.

Having said that when we see disparity like that we as a nation have to come to the conclusion that something is wrong with our system.  Thats not slight margins.  Thats big margins.

So why bring it up then? Or mention that it is interesting?  I don't think it's interesting at all and it literally has zero bearing on the election.

There is nothing wrong with our Electoral System, in fact, it is working exactly how it has been designed to work AKA "keep a loose Confederation of Independent States, with fundamentally different values, together." 

If anything, the Bloc Quebecois are a great example of how a small Regional Party can use the system we have to their advantage to push their agenda forward and derive maximum benefit.  They've even once formed the official opposition despite running candidates in ONE PROVINCE! 

The Green Party and NDP both waste boatloads of money, manpower & resources trying to campaign nationally when they have no real National support.  Real Green Party support is concentrated on Vancouver Island and in small cantons in the Maritimes.  I would make the argument that campaigning nationally wastes very precious dollars & resources for the Green Party.

If war is politics by other means, why not inverse that and say politics is war by other means?  With this in mind, apply military principles to the conduct of a political campaign, namely:


I've read that the NDP Electoral Machine is pretty well known for being a disorganized bag of hammers and I can't imagine the Green Party being much better, perhaps they need to fix that and work on applying some of these principles to make the system work for them and not the other way around?

Or they can continue to whinge about how unfair everything is and then they finally squeeze a few extra seats out of an "Improved" Proportional Representation system (which would do them no good because they still don't have widespread support and would still be a disorganized bags of hammers).  On the flip side, Mad Max would surely love Proportional Representation because he would also get some love in the HoC.  Just what we need, extremists from all ends coming to start their own political movements grabbing hold of that 1 or 2% of the vote they would be able to gather up. 

On the bright side, I wouldn't need to watch Youtube anymore to get my daily dose of Antifa vs Proud Boys, I could merely flip on CPAC!



Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 23, 2019, 15:57:35
My main complaint with most electoral maps of Canada is that they show physical, not human, geography.  Rocks and trees don't vote, people do; scaling based on population gives a very different visual.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 23, 2019, 16:02:08
My main complaint with most electoral maps of Canada is that they show physical, not human, geography.  Rocks and trees don't vote, people do; scaling based on population gives a very different visual.

Hence my point on % of vote by population densities. National Popular Vote is the political equivalent of +/- in hockey, it's a useless statistic.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: garb811 on October 23, 2019, 16:33:40
In light of the PM's announcement he would not be seeking to form a coalition government post election, the Liberal Minority Government 2019 - ?? thread (https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,131371.msg1587425/) has been established for discussions related to the new minority Liberal Government.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on October 23, 2019, 17:10:01
Hence my point on % of vote by population densities. National Popular Vote is the political equivalent of +/- in hockey, it's a useless statistic.

+/- in hockey isn't useless, unless its used in isolation. Much like national popular vote, its an indicator you have to combine it with other metrics to make it useful in finding trends.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 23, 2019, 17:27:12
+/- in hockey isn't useless, unless its used in isolation. Much like national popular vote, its an indicator you have to combine it with other metrics to make it useful in finding trends.

Which is exactly why +/- is mostly useless because almost no one ever combines it with more in depth statistical analysis taking in to account other factors like Shot %, Time on Ice, etc. 

Alexander Ovechkin had the worst +/- in the League in 2014, I don't think anyone says Alexander Ovechkin is a bad hockey player or they wouldn't want Alexander Ovechkin on their team because of his poor +/-.

It's the same with the continuous trumpeting of "Popular Vote" in our media and by certain political parties/pundits.  It's a useless statistic when framed in isolation, which 99.9% of the time, it is.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 23, 2019, 18:19:41
So why bring it up then? Or mention that it is interesting?  I don't think it's interesting at all and it literally has zero bearing on the election.

There is nothing wrong with our Electoral System, in fact, it is working exactly how it has been designed to work AKA "keep a loose Confederation of Independent States, with fundamentally different values, together." 

If anything, the Bloc Quebecois are a great example of how a small Regional Party can use the system we have to their advantage to push their agenda forward and derive maximum benefit.  They've even once formed the official opposition despite running candidates in ONE PROVINCE! 

The Green Party and NDP both waste boatloads of money, manpower & resources trying to campaign nationally when they have no real National support.  Real Green Party support is concentrated on Vancouver Island and in small cantons in the Maritimes.  I would make the argument that campaigning nationally wastes very precious dollars & resources for the Green Party.

If war is politics by other means, why not inverse that and say politics is war by other means?  With this in mind, apply military principles to the conduct of a political campaign, namely:

  • Selection and maintenance of the aim;
  • maintenance of morale;
  • offensive action;
  • surprise;
  • security;
  • concentration of force;
  • economy of effort;
  • flexibility;
  • co-operation; and
  • administration.

I've read that the NDP Electoral Machine is pretty well known for being a disorganized bag of hammers and I can't imagine the Green Party being much better, perhaps they need to fix that and work on applying some of these principles to make the system work for them and not the other way around?

Or they can continue to whinge about how unfair everything is and then they finally squeeze a few extra seats out of an "Improved" Proportional Representation system (which would do them no good because they still don't have widespread support and would still be a disorganized bags of hammers).  On the flip side, Mad Max would surely love Proportional Representation because he would also get some love in the HoC.  Just what we need, extremists from all ends coming to start their own political movements grabbing hold of that 1 or 2% of the vote they would be able to gather up. 

On the bright side, I wouldn't need to watch Youtube anymore to get my daily dose of Antifa vs Proud Boys, I could merely flip on CPAC!

We have fundamentally different opinions on how well our electoral systems is working and whether or not is being taken advantage of by region parties, aka the Bloc.

Either way when 7.7% of the vote gets that much representation and 15.9% get so little, something needs to change. 

Just for transparency I am a card carrying Conservative who sees this election as a minor victory for us.  But I believe in country before party allegiance and the country needs better representation.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: QV on October 23, 2019, 18:29:07
Which is exactly why +/- is mostly useless because almost no one ever combines it with more in depth statistical analysis taking in to account other factors like Shot %, Time on Ice, etc. 

Alexander Ovechkin had the worst +/- in the League in 2014, I don't think anyone says Alexander Ovechkin is a bad hockey player or they wouldn't want Alexander Ovechkin on their team because of his poor +/-.

It's the same with the continuous trumpeting of "Popular Vote" in our media and by certain political parties/pundits.  It's a useless statistic when framed in isolation, which 99.9% of the time, it is.

I think you are over complicating what the popular vote means, and +/- in hockey is a poor analogy, imo.  The raw vote is a useful metric in its isolation, it tells you more people voted for the CPC than the LCP for example.  Granted that's not how we elect our representatives, but it gives a clearer picture on a broader sentiment.  Seat count skews that.   

The biggest problem we have with our system is unequal representation.  When the Atlantic region has the same number of seats as Prairie region with only half the population - we have a big problem.  And it's not just Atlantic.     
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PPCLI Guy on October 23, 2019, 18:37:28


‘Conservatives’, for whatever those are these days, are doomed until a more moderate ‘fiscally conservative, socially progressive’ tone is championed.

G2G

Makes you miss the Martin (and Chretien) Liberals.....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 23, 2019, 18:59:29
I think you are over complicating what the popular vote means, and +/- in hockey is a poor analogy, imo.  The raw vote is a useful metric in its isolation, it tells you more people voted for the CPC than the LCP for example.  Granted that's not how we elect our representatives, but it gives a clearer picture on a broader sentiment.  Seat count skews that.   

The biggest problem we have with our system is unequal representation.  When the Atlantic region has the same number of seats as Prairie region with only half the population - we have a big problem.  And it's not just Atlantic.   

I am really not overcomplicating anything.  I am merely pointing out the Popular Vote is a useless metric in a Nation as geographically large as Canada because it is used as a way to pretend that certain political parties have national appeal when the reality is they don't.  And besides the Big 2, none of the other parties have any sort of widespread appeal outside of very small areas.  Our political system is an acknowledgement that we are a Country of Regions with vastly different values and interests.  The party at the Federal level that will be most successful is the party that achieves broadest consensus across groups of people with radically different values.  The Liberals have been the Party that has most consistently done that.

Our political system is a strength, not a weakness.  It protects us from extremists and fringe groups having outsized voices.  When I look at Politicians like Elizabeth May and Maxime Bernier, I see individuals that would probably be better suited to Municipal and Provincial Politics.  They are the literal embodiment of "All Politics is Local" and are totally out of their depth at the Federal level.  Try and picture either one of them conducting high level statecraft with other World Leaders and it is absolutely laughable.

Makes you miss the Martin (and Chretien) Liberals.....

Paul Martin was a very good Finance Minister and had an unfortunate time as Prime Minister.  I feel like we really didn't get the best he had to offer, due to events that were largely not his doing.

 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 23, 2019, 20:31:49
>Either way when 7.7% of the vote gets that much representation and 15.9% get so little, something needs to change. 

FFS.  Can we please bury the "Bloc got so many seats for so little national share of popular vote blah blah blah" bullshit.  The only meaningful way to measure a party's vote efficiency is to measure its vote count where it runs candidates.

The NDP's problem isn't that it doesn't get enough seats for the vote share it manages to capture; the NDP's problem is that it doesn't provide a philosophy of governance appealing to more than 1/6th to 1/5th of Canadians AND that most of the party establishment is too chickenshit to fight the Liberals ruthlessly enough to become the left-side alternative to the Conservatives.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 23, 2019, 20:57:48
>Either way when 7.7% of the vote gets that much representation and 15.9% get so little, something needs to change. 

FFS.  Can we please bury the "Bloc got so many seats for so little national share of popular vote blah blah blah" bullshit.  The only meaningful way to measure a party's vote efficiency is to measure its vote count where it runs candidates.

The NDP's problem isn't that it doesn't get enough seats for the vote share it manages to capture; the NDP's problem is that it doesn't provide a philosophy of governance appealing to more than 1/6th to 1/5th of Canadians AND that most of the party establishment is too chickenshit to fight the Liberals ruthlessly enough to become the left-side alternative to the Conservatives.

Exactly what I said above.  That 1/5 to 1/6 is also densely concentrated in a very small geographic area.  Again, they have no National appeal.

The Bloc are a very clever solution to give Quebec an outsized voice in the HoC.  It's also using the FPTP system to its maximum advantage. If only other parts of Canada were as organized and creative as Quebecers are. The West is finally starting to get how to play the game with #Wexit. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 23, 2019, 23:03:10
I know there is a lot of analyses going on as to why the CPC lost and some of it may be true however, I think pure and simlple that they were too negative and a lot of people don't like that.  My dad told me earlier today that him and 2 of my uncles voted independent for the first time ever even though they have all been voting Conservative most of their lives but this time just couldn't bring themselves to vote CPC because they couldn't stand how negative they were.  He also told me that they're even more comfortable after listening to Scheer speak after losing.  In my dad's riding the Liberals only won by a small margin.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Furniture on October 23, 2019, 23:38:49
I know there is a lot of analyses going on as to why the CPC lost and some of it may be true however, I think pure and simlple that they were too negative and a lot of people don't like that.  My dad told me earlier today that him and 2 of my uncles voted independent for the first time ever even though they have all been voting Conservative most of their lives but this time just couldn't bring themselves to vote CPC because they couldn't stand how negative they were.  He also told me that they're even more comfortable after listening to Scheer speak after losing.  In my dad's riding the Liberals only won by a small margin.

This is one of the three following scenarios.

1) This is a made up story.

2) Your father and his brothers paid no attention to anything the LPC did that was negative, because they are "dyed in the wool" Liberals and ignored that the LPC went negative prior to the writ being dropped.

3) Your father and his brothers were in comas throughout the entire campaign.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 24, 2019, 00:32:49
This is one of the three following scenarios.

1) This is a made up story.


Yea I kinda got that impression too.


Quote
I heard two people at work today say they had planned to vote CPC but once they got to the polls changed their mind as they didn't trust Scheer.


Quote
My other point is that Scheer is just plain negative and filled with hate when he talks.


Quote
I think pure and simlple that they were too negative and a lot of people don't like that.  My dad told me earlier today that him and 2 of my uncles voted independent for the first time ever even though they have all been voting Conservative most of their lives but this time just couldn't bring themselves to vote CPC because they couldn't stand how negative they were.


 ::)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 24, 2019, 00:40:33
I'm pretty sure stellarpanther is the Master Troll and is just having a laugh at all of our expense.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 24, 2019, 03:43:21
So one thing that I find interesting about the push for proportional representation.  Does the Green Party or NDP actually aspire to govern?  Or do they merely wish to remain "special interest" parties.  It's fairly clear that while proportional representation would give both a bigger voice than they presently have, it's tough to imagine them ever actually forming a Government in those conditions. The NDP were very close a few years ago but as was already said, they are too chickenshit to really challenge the Liberals.

I also feel that the Party that would benefit the least from such a system would be the Liberal Party of Canada.  In a proportional representation system, I could see that political party splintering and the Conservatives growing a lot stronger.  People crave stability, it's only natural, and the party that offers the most stability is the Conservative Party of Canada.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on October 24, 2019, 06:05:28
I also feel that the Party that would benefit the least from such a system would be the Liberal Party of Canada.  In a proportional representation system, I could see that political party splintering and the Conservatives growing a lot stronger.  People crave stability, it's only natural, and the party that offers the most stability is the Conservative Party of Canada.

Liberals are going to steer well clear of electoral reform now as FPTP is the reason they're still in power even if that power is held on by a thread.

Only thing that a change to PR or Ranked Ballots does is force us into perpetual minority governments.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PPCLI Guy on October 24, 2019, 07:21:48
I'm pretty sure stellarpanther is the Master Troll and is just having a laugh at all of our expense.

It is clear that the poster is speaking of his opinion, and that of others.  Having an opinion different than yours does not a troll make.   The negative response from other posters does however seem to confirm his opinion of conservatives....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 24, 2019, 09:44:08
I'm pretty sure stellarpanther is the Master Troll and is just having a laugh at all of our expense.

Having an opinion different than yours does not a troll make.

For reference,

  • Trolling: Making a deliberately offensive or provocative post, where the primary aim is upsetting someone or eliciting an emotional response from them.







Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 24, 2019, 10:21:33
It is clear that the poster is speaking of his opinion, and that of others.  Having an opinion different than yours does not a troll make.   The negative response from other posters does however seem to confirm his opinion of conservatives....

Concur.  I didn’t see any trolling.  The anecdotes are actually similar to some of mine.  Some people were conflicted and I fail to see how anyone can not understand why some voters chose to vote the way they did.  Some protest voted other voted for the best riding rep in their opinion.  My father in his riding voted CPC.  Not because he likes them, quite the opposite but he really likes the MP. 

Plenty of people I work with in the PS chose not to vote CPC at the 11th hour because  of their platform plan for the PS.  Reading between the lines it was obviously DRAP 2.0.  This from the group of people who brought us Phoenix, SSC and DRAP 1.0.

Stellar panther was just imparting his/her experience.  If people don’t like that then maybe they should listen a bit more and maybe they can win the next time.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CountDC on October 24, 2019, 12:07:03
I don't see a reason to doubt his posts.  I didn't decide until I was looking down at the ballot with pencil in hand who to vote for even though I had expected to vote conservative.  When the time came though, I thought about it and just couldn't cast that vote so went instead with plan b.  It just didn't feel right when I held the pencil over the conservative spot. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 24, 2019, 12:15:08
Quote from: Remius
.  If people don’t like that then maybe they should listen a bit more and maybe they can win the next time.

Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 24, 2019, 12:29:48
I don't see a reason to doubt his posts.  I

I find the statement Scheer is filled with hate when he talks to be overly dramatic and I'd say typical "Conservatives = hate speech" mantra that was constantly pushed in the media and by certain politicians and political entities.

I AM starting to believe a democratic nation gets the leader they deserve.


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 24, 2019, 13:56:25
Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?
If the Conservatives had a real climate plan they probably win the election.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 24, 2019, 14:28:46
Conservatives do have a real climate plan; most people don't recognize it.  Conservatives tend to be the most pro-prosperity group.  Generally, the more prosperous a society, the lower its birth rate and the more it is technologically capable, fiscally capable, and desirous of mitigating environmental damage.  A key driver of prosperity is abundant and inexpensive energy.

If Greens got everything they say they want right now, I can easily predict that people will fall back on the means of earlier times to get by (heating, lighting, transportation, etc).

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 24, 2019, 14:32:59
Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?

Possibly.  Climate action is one thing they pretty much dismissed.  Fair enough. But they need something, anything than what they have.  But it seems  they were banking on people’s frustration with Trudeau instead of actually offering something else.  Instead they resorted to their old tactics and people got tired of it.  Fear mongering and inventing things out of thin air that people were not buying into.

Plus avoiding issues and not getting a grip on the attacks coming their way. 

Gay marriage didn’t have to be an issue.  But Scheer’s response kept that alive.   People didn’t want to hear his canned response designed to not anger is social conservative base.  They wanted an honest answer but when it finally came after the debate it was too late. 

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 24, 2019, 16:18:06
Conservatives do have a real climate plan; most people don't recognize it.  Conservatives tend to be the most pro-prosperity group.  Generally, the more prosperous a society, the lower its birth rate and the more it is technologically capable, fiscally capable, and desirous of mitigating environmental damage.  A key driver of prosperity is abundant and inexpensive energy.

If Greens got everything they say they want right now, I can easily predict that people will fall back on the means of earlier times to get by (heating, lighting, transportation, etc).
The experts who looked at the CPC climate plan said emissions would rise.

So when climate change was one of the top ballot box questions,  not having a climate plan that would result in a rise in emissions is a great way to set a ceiling on potential support.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 24, 2019, 16:54:55
If the Conservatives had a real climate plan they probably win the election.

A climate plan would have convinced Canada Ontario Toronto to vote conservative and win a majority?

Possibly.  Climate action is one thing they pretty much dismissed.  Fair enough. But they need something, anything than what they have.  But it seems  they were banking on people’s frustration with Trudeau instead of actually offering something else.  Instead they resorted to their old tactics and people got tired of it.  Fear mongering and inventing things out of thin air that people were not buying into.


See above. I think no matter what the Conservatives said, promised or did, they weren't going to shake the Liberal hold on empire Toronto.

Quote

Gay marriage didn’t have to be an issue.  But Scheer’s response kept that alive.   

I was actually impressed with his stance on gay marriage and abortion. More specifically I like that he had the backbone to take an unpopular stance on it because that's what he believed in, even though I disagree with his views 100%.

He clearly said he wouldn't reopen the abortion debate and all the fears about Conservatives banning gay marriage was just silly. It even even came up the 8 years Harper was in office, why would Scheer try.

I suppose Scheer might have got some votes of he joined the pride parade and waved around a rainbow flag.

But honestly, would he really have?
Pride parade who bans police and soldiers from marching with them? Pride that seems like it caters to special interest groups more than anything?

Pride would have welcomed him with open arms? I doubt it. I bet they'd make a big stink about it and try to publically shame him by protesting the parade or boycotting it.

Am I wrong?



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4699694
2018
Edmonton police, RCMP, military banned from future Pride parades
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 24, 2019, 17:32:13
A climate plan would have convinced Canada Ontario Toronto to vote conservative and win a majority?
 
Majority?  No. No one was going to with the bloc surging
Quote

See above. I think no matter what the Conservatives said, promised or did, they weren't going to shake the Liberal hold on empire Toronto.
Looking past Toronto,  the CPC did poorly across the board. Toronto has 25 seats,  Ontario has 121 seats. Fixation on Toronto masks the larger issue.
Quote

 
I was actually impressed with his stance on gay marriage and abortion. More specifically I like that he had the backbone to take an unpopular stance on it because that's what he believed in, even though I disagree with his views 100%.
It was his non answer to the question that hurt him. He could have apologized for his speech in 2004-5 and it would have ended there. He didn't. He could have said he is personally anti abortion but won't reopen the issue. He didnt. Scheer has the exact same stance on abortion as trudeau,  he just didn't articulate it.
Quote

He clearly said he wouldn't reopen the abortion debate and all the fears about Conservatives banning gay marriage was just silly. It even even came up the 8 years Harper was in office, why would Scheer try.

I suppose Scheer might have got some votes of he joined the pride parade and waved around a rainbow flag.

But honestly, would he really have?
Pride parade who bans police and soldiers from marching with them? Pride that seems like it caters to special interest groups more than anything?
  Doug Ford marched in a more conservative riding pride parade that welcomed him. Scheer didn't even do that.
Quote


Pride would have welcomed him with open arms? I doubt it. I bet they'd make a big stink about it and try to publically shame him by protesting the parade or boycotting it.

Am I wrong?



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4699694
2018
Edmonton police, RCMP, military banned from future Pride parades
Again,  nobody is asking Scheer to go get booed in downtown toronto. But edmonton Pride,  Regina pride, calgary pride,  red deer pride,  somewhere, there was a pride parade in a place more friendly to a conservative leader,  and he still chose not to do it.

The question becomes why?  Is he so opposed to gay marriage that he cannot be seen to do the bare minimum and march with them?  That does make a lot of people,  especially in urban ridings,  uncomfortable. Doug Ford did it,  not a word was mentioned afterwards,  issue dead. Scheer didn't and it dogged him. So yes,  I think it would have made a difference. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 24, 2019, 17:35:33
I think no matter what the Conservatives said, promised or did, they weren't going to shake the Liberal hold on empire Toronto.

Empire? Hardly. Not yet, and likely never will be.

The GTA ( Toronto, Halton, Peel, York and Durham aka the 416 / 905 ) is under the control of Queen's Park.

The population of the GTA is greater than British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, PEI.

So, all teams must look at the GTA as a vote rich environment.



 

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 24, 2019, 18:30:56
Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?

The way I see it the problem wasn't that the CPC weren't better listeners, but lousy talkers (e.g Inability to get their message across).


If the Conservatives had a real climate plan they probably win the election.

If climate change was such a big issue for Canadians the NDP or Green would be in charge. Instead the Greens won one extra seat (from two to three) and the NDP lost 15.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 24, 2019, 18:34:28
Majority?  No. No one was going to with the bloc surging

So a climate plan would have caused Quebec to vote 30 seats for the Conservatives instead of the bloc?

Quote
Looking past Toronto,  the CPC did poorly across the board. Toronto has 25 seats,  Ontario has 121 seats. Fixation on Toronto masks the larger issue



Liberals kept 25 of Toronto's seats. They also kept 24 of 29 seats just outside of the core which is identical to where they were on election night in 2015.
So Toronto didn't budge in 4 years. A worthy fortress I'd say.

Quote
It was his non answer to the question that hurt him. He could have apologized for his speech in 2004-5 and it would have ended there.

Have you ever seen what happens to celebrities who try to apologise to various offended groups? Maybe it's different.  It's hilarious to see though. Like sharks.

Quote
He could have said he is personally anti abortion but won't reopen the issue.

I thought that's exactly what he did.

Quote
Doug Ford marched in a more conservative riding pride parade that welcomed him.


And he faced criticism for refusing to march in the Toronto pride parade due to them banning police and military.

Quote
Scheer didn't even do that. Again,  nobody is asking Scheer to go get booed in downtown toronto.

So you want him to go against the tennents of his religion just to placate a group of Canadians? 

Quote
But edmonton Pride,  Regina pride, calgary pride,  red deer pride,  somewhere, there was a pride parade in a place more friendly to a conservative leader,  and he still chose not to do it.

Edmonton pride that banned RCMP, police and military-even out of uniform? I wouldn't consider that friendly.

Thats besides the point. It was a religious decision for him. Why are we pressured to respect some religious rules but not others?

Quote
The question becomes why?  Is he so opposed to gay marriage that he cannot be seen to do the bare minimum and march with them?

Integrity. It would be fake of him to do it.  The same way its fake for all those police officer hopefuls to volunteer at local agencies for the sake of crossing off the volunteer check in the box. They're not doing it because they enjoy volunteering.


Quote
Doug Ford did it,  not a word was mentioned afterwards,  issue dead.
Incorrect. Marching in the York parade wasn't good enough. He was criticized for not marching in the Toronto parade.
And I bet if he did try then knowing the Toronto pride mentality, like Edmonton, they would have made a big deal about it.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 24, 2019, 21:11:46
Aaaaand for a pro-Russian site's take on the results (linked to a text summary site (https://outline.com/Gq9ZEp) so we don't HAVE to link to whoever is behind the original piece) ...
Quote
Freeland’s Victory, Canada 2020 and the New Malthusian Takeover of Canada
Matthew Ehret, fort-russ.com, October 23, 2019

With the election victory of the Liberal Government of Justin Trudeau and Chrystia Freeland on October 21st, Canada’s political landscape has found itself again under the continued clutches of a Green technocratic dictatorship which took control of the Liberal Party 54 years ago with the British-run ouster of the “continentalist” liberals of C.D. Howe and Prime Minister St. Laurent during the interim period of 1957-1963. This story was told in my previous report “Forgotten Battles Against the Deep State part one”.

Although the parasite controlling today’s Liberal government is called Canada 2020,this think tank (formed in 2003) is merely the most recent manifestation of a foreign takeover which goes back to 1933… and I’m not talking about the Russians. This takeover has been led by an operation called the Round Table movement and it’s sister organization the Fabian Society. Their use of planning conferences have been instrumental in guiding this process.

( ... )

The Liberal Party of Jean Chretien and Paul Martin, which had been in power from 1993-2006, distinguished itself as being the last major federal party to resist, even in some small form, aspects of the Empire’s agenda in the form of their rejection of Canada’s participation in the Iraq war in 2003, rejection of the Anti-Ballistic Missile shield in 2005 and the failed 1997 attempt to consolidate the “big 5” banks into the “big 3”.

Battles between Prime Minister Chretien and such pro-British establishment figures as Lord Conrad Black expressed this lack of British control over its Canadian dominion to a large degree. Such lack of control of an important dominion within the British Commonwealth had to be reined in and a more virulent form of Canadian nationalism more conducive to a globally extended empire had to be weaved in its place.

Considering the very real possibility that President Trump may yet push for arctic cooperation with Eurasia while imposing Glass-Steagall onto the bankrupt too big to fail banks before they meltdown, bringing America back towards its constitutional roots, the desire by the British oligarchy to keep a tight grip on its North American colony separating Russia from America has been more desperate now during the economic collapse than ever before ...
More @ link

These guys also share the news about "How the Deep State Overthrew the Last Nationalist Government of Canada… in 1963!" (https://outline.com/q2yB6A). (also links to outline.com instead of original site)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 24, 2019, 22:11:05
I'm pretty sure stellarpanther is the Master Troll and is just having a laugh at all of our expense.

Ok if you say so.  Basically some on here don't want to admit that a lot of people can't stand the negativity of Scheer and if the people don't like it and choose to vote for someone else because of it that means they don't follow the election.  Is there a problem with not wanting our elections to turn in the circus they have in the U.S. where it's constant insults and mudslinging?

I'm not a person who automatically votes for one particular party.  I decide based on what I think of the issues.  I don't want the new pipeline built, the CPC have no climate plan except to keep on polluting.  I also can't stand that Scheer can't answer one simple question on anything without bashing Trudeau or another party.  I also like the Liberal policy for VAC.  The are plenty of other reasons but those are the big ones for me.


Finally, I am not trolling or getting a laugh at anyone on here although I do find some of the comments since my last post a bit amusing and pathetic at the same time.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Eaglelord17 on October 25, 2019, 07:12:38
Ok if you say so.  Basically some on here don't want to admit that a lot of people can't stand the negativity of Scheer and if the people don't like it and choose to vote for someone else because of it that means they don't follow the election.  Is there a problem with not wanting our elections to turn in the circus they have in the U.S. where it's constant insults and mudslinging?

I'm not a person who automatically votes for one particular party.  I decide based on what I think of the issues.  I don't want the new pipeline built, the CPC have no climate plan except to keep on polluting.  I also can't stand that Scheer can't answer one simple question on anything without bashing Trudeau or another party.  I also like the Liberal policy for VAC.  The are plenty of other reasons but those are the big ones for me.


Finally, I am not trolling or getting a laugh at anyone on here although I do find some of the comments since my last post a bit amusing and pathetic at the same time.

I personally hated watching Scheer at the debates. When his opening lead directly into a attack on Trudeau, I was honestly disgusted. It was pathetic, and a clear showing that he isn't ready to be a prime minister (none of the others really preformed at the level I would expect them to be at either). He would have had plenty of opportunities to shoot jabs later in the night when it was more relevant, but instead immediately did so off the back when it wasn't appropriate or justified. Good luck selling the Conservative brand, when all you have to do is show a 30 second clip on the opening debate and literally pretty much anyone but a diehard Conservative wouldn't be impressed. Anyone on the fence immediately knows where they want to stand when they see stuff like that.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on October 25, 2019, 12:28:30
...
So you want him to go against the tennents of his religion just to placate a group of Canadians? 
...

No I don't but therein lies the problem. Scheer right now is saying that he believes it's possible to hold socially conservative views and be the prime minister.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-socially-conservative-1.5334891 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-socially-conservative-1.5334891)

Unfortunately I think that a large part of the electorate, myself included, doesn't believe that is possible. Anecdotally speaking two members of my family who were life long conservatives voted otherwise simply because they no longer trust the party on that issue. Note that it's not just him but the whole party that they don't trust. Locally my CPC candidate in part won the nomination for her largely rural riding by putting her Christian values and pro life stance out front and, like our riding, many solid CPC ridings associations now have a vocal majority that are looking for like minded candidates.  Remember that back in 2018 at the CPC's National Policy Convention the delegates only narrowly defeated a motion that would have repealed Article 65 of the CPC policy handbook (i.e. the CPC will not support any legislation to regulate abortion). Scheer's position has been that while pro-life, his government wouldn't bring any legislation forward to regulate abortion although he wouldn't oppose any private member's bill to do so. That's worrisome to people who support the country's status quo on this subject.

The CPC and it's leadership are seen by many as having a hidden agenda on abortion and gay marriage. The CPC is seen as a Trojan Horse of fiscal conservatism filled with social conservatives ready to pounce if again given power. Quite frankly as a life long conservative I have the same concerns although this time I was able to choke it down and take Scheer at his word. Many conservatives who, like me, are more centrists and socially liberal, and many independent centrists have been watching what has been going on with the Republican Party down south and no longer which to take the risk with the CPC.

I think that the CPC has a hard row to hoe in the future. A large part of it's membership is socially conservative and feeling it's oats. I read one article that said over 70 CPC candidates running in this election were openly pro-lifers. That shows how deeply the social conservative wing of the party is ingrained at the riding level. As this wing grows, more fiscal conservatives will jump ship by simply staying home. Personally I'm staying with the party to see what I can do from the inside but, quite frankly, I'm pessimistic about any change. IMHO, social conservatives care more about their narrow causes than the overarching need for a fiscally conservative government and they have nowhere else to go to push their agenda. They are going to be with the CPC for a long haul and, unfortunately, I think they will win out in the end.

 :worms:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 25, 2019, 12:33:55
No I don't but therein lies the problem. Scheer right now is saying that he believes it's possible to hold socially conservative views and be the prime minister.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-socially-conservative-1.5334891 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-socially-conservative-1.5334891)

Unfortunately I think that a large part of the electorate, myself included, doesn't believe that is possible. Anecdotally speaking two members of my family who were life long conservatives voted otherwise simply because they no longer trust the party on that issue. Note that it's not just him but the whole party that they don't trust. Locally my CPC candidate in part won the nomination for her largely rural riding by putting her Christian values and pro life stance out front and, like our riding, many solid CPC ridings associations now have a vocal majority that are looking for like minded candidates.  Remember that back in 2018 at the CPC's National Policy Convention the delegates only narrowly defeated a motion that would have repealed Article 65 of the CPC policy handbook (i.e. the CPC will not support any legislation to regulate abortion). Scheer's position has been that while pro-life, his government wouldn't bring any legislation forward to regulate abortion although he wouldn't oppose any private member's bill to do so. That's worrisome to people who support the country's status quo on this subject.

The CPC and it's leadership are seen by many as having a hidden agenda on abortion and gay marriage. The CPC is seen as a Trojan Horse of fiscal conservatism filled with social conservatives ready to pounce if again given power. Quite frankly as a life long conservative I have the same concerns although this time I was able to choke it down and take Scheer at his word. Many conservatives who, like me, are more centrists and socially liberal, and many independent centrists have been watching what has been going on with the Republican Party down south and no longer which to take the risk with the CPC.

I think that the CPC has a hard row to hoe in the future. A large part of it's membership is socially conservative and feeling it's oats. I read one article that said over 70 CPC candidates running in this election were openly pro-lifers. That shows how deeply the social conservative wing of the party is ingrained at the riding level. As this wing grows, more fiscal conservatives will jump ship by simply staying home. Personally I'm staying with the party to see what I can do from the inside but, quite frankly, I'm pessimistic about any change. IMHO, social conservatives care more about their narrow causes than the overarching need for a fiscally conservative government and they have nowhere else to go to push their agenda. They are going to be with the CPC for a long haul and, unfortunately, I think they will win out in the end.

 :worms:
I was hoping the PPC would be the fiscally conservative party with socially liberal views.

It was a shame that it turned into the anti immigration, anti foreigner fringe party it did, glad it fizzled out the way it did.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Colin P on October 25, 2019, 13:42:54
Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?

I find both the hardcore supporters of the Libs and the CPC very unwillingly to listen to anything that does not fit their views, they live within their own ecosystem.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 25, 2019, 15:08:40
And other parties have no hidden agendas or narrow causes that they're going to pounce on?

A couple of things I've learned over decades: the "so-con" hidden agenda is forever the preoccupation/bogeyman of Chicken Littles, but somehow the dial never moves backward - the threat is conceived, but never realized.  Meanwhile, we do continue to experience weak fiscal management, a constant expansion of "security" with a commensurate contraction of "liberty", and a country in which the well-being of people occupied with governing and public services creeps further ahead of the median every year.

The "progressive" agenda is, empirically, more of a threat than the "conservative" one.

The prudent solution to the "so-con" agenda is for the "mod-cons" to throw in with the conservatives and bend the trajectory, not to throw in with the "not-cons" or disengage entirely.  When you say "Oh, the old PCs have been purged" and walk away, you make your criticism a little bit more true.

What is this horseshit about not being able to hold conservative views and be PM?  What is Justin Trudeau's personal view on abortion?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 25, 2019, 15:45:39

What is this horseshit about not being able to hold conservative views and be PM?  What is Justin Trudeau's personal view on abortion?

I think you can.  But you have to demonstrate that you will support and defend something that you may not want to believe in.  That is the current narrative with Scheer, whether it is true or not. 

Trudeau may have shown that his personal views don't impact his job as PM, Scheer it would seem has not.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 25, 2019, 16:29:43
Quote from: FJAG


Unfortunately I think that a large part of the electorate, myself included, doesn't believe that is possible.



Do you think a practicing Muslim would be able to be prime minister?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 25, 2019, 16:36:55



Do you think a practicing Muslim would be able to be prime minister?
I think anyone,  of any creed,  could be prime minister if they show up,  and very early on say that any anti gay marriage,  anti abortion candidates who would bring it up or vote in that manner can see themselves out would get the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 25, 2019, 16:41:32



Do you think a practicing Muslim would be able to be prime minister?

if Mayor Nenshi can be elected as Mayor of Calgary then I think it is possible.   

But if he mixes politics and his personal faith, less so. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on October 25, 2019, 17:54:12
...
What is this horseshit about not being able to hold conservative views and be PM?  What is Justin Trudeau's personal view on abortion?

My point isn't the individual. It's the social conservative movement in the party as a whole that's the issue. Any one person is welcome to their own beliefs but when a whole sector in the party is moving that way then the average Canadian has a lack of trust. As I said before; just look south of the border if you want to see what a social conservative movement can do. That scares the hell out of me personally and a lot of other "progressive" conservatives.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 25, 2019, 18:06:34
I'm jaded.  People have been having anxiety attacks about "so-cons" since Reagan was supposed to initiate nuclear war to bring on Armageddon on behalf of the televangelists.  The people who sincerely think a "handmaid's tale" is imminent are one of the current symptoms of the (mental) disease.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on October 25, 2019, 21:31:52
I'm jaded.  People have been having anxiety attacks about "so-cons" since Reagan was supposed to initiate nuclear war to bring on Armageddon on behalf of the televangelists.  The people who sincerely think a "handmaid's tale" is imminent are one of the current symptoms of the (mental) disease.

Brad. You cite two extremist views neither of which is held by the vast majority of the people concerned with social conservatism. Social conservatists' desire to place restrictions on same sex marriage and other LGBTQ rights, comprehensive sex education in public schools and abortion stand out as the principle issues that set social conservatists apart from the more centrist and progressive members in Canadian society. These concerns are not "current symptoms of the (mental) disease" as you so cavalierly phrase it. They are a very real concern by many in our society and unless the CPC comes to grip with that understanding rather than dismissing it out of hand, we might never be able to get rid of the LPC -- and maybe we don't deserve to.

Again. Look south. The lessons are there for all to see.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 25, 2019, 23:58:08



Do you think a practicing Muslim would be able to be prime minister?

Well, if their is a practicing Muslim, who is in any way competent.. he would be an amazing choice for the CPC next election :)

But right now I have not seen a capable Muslim politician in Canada.. so no ;)

But politics and religion should remain seperate.. so yes...

Interesting question once thought upon deeper.
Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on October 26, 2019, 01:22:25
Again. Look south. The lessons are there for all to see.

 :cheers:

I disagree. We are nothing like our neighbours to the south. 

The Conservatives ran this country for what? Nearly a decade? I don’t recall anything being mentioned about the party, (not individual MPs) having a desire to change abortion laws, same-sex marriage, or LGBTQ rights. It’s always a 3rd party claiming the Conservatives have a “hidden agenda”.  Canadian media does a great job helping the LPC as well, every time they interviewed a Conservative candidate they made sure to work the topic of abortion into the conversation. It seemed like everyone except the Conservative party was bringing the subject up.

Two very different countries. 



Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 26, 2019, 04:35:15
>You cite two extremist views neither of which is held by the vast majority of the people concerned with social conservatism.

Certainly not extreme.  Reagan-will-unleash-Armageddon was an occasionally recurring feature in the MSM (since back in those days, all I had was MSM as a font of information), and the "The Handmaid's Tale" was essentially unremarked upon until people started circulating their weird anxieties in today's left-leaning portion of the MSM.  Some people hold it up as an example of what they fear will come to pass.  Those people are unmoored from reality.

The point isn't that a large majority has to believe each particular piece of nonsense.  Those are two examples of bizarre concerns from a long list of imaginary futures that people keep in their heads.  The point is that a large number of people are overwrought over things they imagine which are highly unlikely to occur.  No-one that anxious is completely healthy.  Of course, they might know full well they are behaving hysterically purely as a rhetorical device - 1) Republicans, 2) ???, 3) Handmaid's Tale!.  That's still unhealthy, but differently so.

Most infringements of rights and liberty in general will emerge from the political left as it continues its war on thought and expression and property, not because some private member's bill emerges in the House to try and fight its way past the House, Senate, and courts.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PPCLI Guy on October 26, 2019, 09:26:13
But right now I have not seen a capable Muslim politician in Canada.. so no ;)

https://muslimlink.ca/news/muslim-canadians-who-won-in-the-2019-federal-election (https://muslimlink.ca/news/muslim-canadians-who-won-in-the-2019-federal-election)

There are 12 Muslim politicians after this election out of 338 seats - so 3.5% of all elected Federal politicians.  2 of them were Ministers in the last government - s close to 6% representation.

I find Omar Alghabra to  be both personable and effective.  He was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade Diversification.  I was fortunate enough to sit next to him at a dinner with him last year, and I found him to be knowledgeable, interested, and well-informed about the world, Canada's place in it, and even the role of the military.

There is also this guy:
Quote
Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative Member of Parliament for  Edmonton Manning
Lebanese Canadian Ziad Aboultaif co-managed Axxess Furniture Inc., an Edmonton-based furniture distribution business, for 12 years.

Elected in 2015, Ziad Aboultaif proposed the failed Private Member's Bill C-223 aimed at establishing a Canadian Organ Donor Registry. In 2003, Aboultaif made a partial-liver donation. Since 2017, he has served as the Official Opposition Shadow Minister for International Development. In this role, he has had the opportunity to travel to many countries that receive development assistance from Canada, such as Nicaragua, Lebanon, Jordan, Senegal, Nigeria, and Bangladesh

This fella looks interesting:

Quote
Sameer Zuberi, Liberal Member of Parliament for Pierrefonds-Dollard
Sameer Zuberi, a 39-year old father of two, holds degrees in law from Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM) and mathematics from Concordia University. He has worked in the areas of university administration, law, media relations, human rights, and served in the Canadian Forces Reserves.

Interesting Fact: Sameer is of mixed race Pakistani-Italian-Scottish heritage.

So I guess it is indeed possible....and of course the religion of an MP is completely immaterial.
 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 26, 2019, 09:34:59
I disagree. We are nothing like our neighbours to the south. 

The Conservatives ran this country for what? Nearly a decade? I don’t recall anything being mentioned about the party, (not individual MPs) having a desire to change abortion laws, same-sex marriage, or LGBTQ rights. It’s always a 3rd party claiming the Conservatives have a “hidden agenda”.  Canadian media does a great job helping the LPC as well, every time they interviewed a Conservative candidate they made sure to work the topic of abortion into the conversation. It seemed like everyone except the Conservative party was bringing the subject up.

Two very different countries.


I agree with most of this.  But the conservatives do themselves no favours when someone like Trost who ran for the leadership put abortion and gay marriage front and center in his leadership bid.   Or that there were elements of the party trying to get at least 50 pro life members elected.  There is a segment of the party that wants to get enough influence to reopen that debate.  I don’t think the agenda is hidden or what not.  Just a conflict within the party that isn’t resolved.   

I fully expect the social conservatives to come out in force if there is a leadership race.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 26, 2019, 10:07:45
Quote from: PPCLI Guy


So I guess it is indeed possible....and of course the religion of an MP is completely immaterial.

Agreed. Muslim politicians do just fine and contrary to what some suggest aren't out to, for example, bring about Shira law in Canada (unless they state it) . They have some beliefs which are different than others and manage just fine.



I agree with most of this.  But the conservatives do themselves no favours when someone like Trost who ran for the leadership put abortion and gay marriage front and center in his leadership bid.   

So, I guess I dont know as much about politics as I thought. I've never heard about social conservatives before reading it here yesterday.

Are the majority of conservatives these social conservatives that are against gay marriage, are pro-life * and generally how they're described on Wikipedia? Or would social conservatives be a smaller  more extreme type group?

We really need a middle party. All the moderates from each political partys get together and find a way to work together to find balanced ways to deal with stuff. We need to unseat the Liberal/Conservative mafia.




*I think the pro-choice/pro-life argument can extend beyond religious aspects so not just religion driven.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: GR66 on October 26, 2019, 10:12:04
I disagree. We are nothing like our neighbours to the south. 

The Conservatives ran this country for what? Nearly a decade? I don’t recall anything being mentioned about the party, (not individual MPs) having a desire to change abortion laws, same-sex marriage, or LGBTQ rights. It’s always a 3rd party claiming the Conservatives have a “hidden agenda”.  Canadian media does a great job helping the LPC as well, every time they interviewed a Conservative candidate they made sure to work the topic of abortion into the conversation. It seemed like everyone except the Conservative party was bringing the subject up.

Two very different countries.

Speaking as someone who voted CPC (with some reservations) I can see where some socially progressive Canadians might have some reservations about the Conservatives under Scheer.  You are 100% correct about the Conservatives under Harper not having a "hidden agenda" and I had no fear of any kind of rights rollback under him as PM. 

Andrew Scheer isn't Stephen Harper though.  Harper and his core team had very firm control over the party and its agenda.  I don't think many Canadian believe that Andrew Scheer would have anywhere near that kind of control over some of the more socially conservative elements of the party.  Add to that his own comments in the past about his personal beliefs on these matters and a level of doubt is allowed to creep in on the issue. 

With the weight of the electorate in more socially liberal urban areas in Canada I think any attempt to roll back any existing rights would be political suicide for the Conservatives so don't believe in a million years that ANY CPC leader would do anything like that.  But that tiny seed of doubt that Andrew Scheer has allowed to creep in may have been one more reason for people to put their vote elsewhere this time around.

 :2c:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Journeyman on October 26, 2019, 10:16:44
Interesting Fact: Sameer is of mixed race Pakistani-Italian-Scottish heritage.
No interest in his religious beliefs, but I'm intrigued by the potential dinner offerings.   :pop:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on October 26, 2019, 12:40:25
Obviously, curried spaghetti with haggis-balls sauce.

 ;D
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 26, 2019, 12:49:42
Halal Haggis Ravioli

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/19/world/edinburgh-journal-haggis-the-food-of-poets-well-one-scottish-poet.html
Quote
Mr. Crombie said he also had begun to make halal haggis, prepared in accordance with ritual slaughter, for Muslim customers, and Mr. Macsween produced a list of recipes for red peppers stuffed with haggis, ''wee cocktail haggis'' canapés and pasta fillings. ''You haven't lived until you've had haggis ravioli,'' he said.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 26, 2019, 15:01:34
...

2 things in this thread have confirmed, I live under a rock.

Proud of the Muslim MP's, from my heart. Thanks for pointing them out.

Halal haggis eh? I thought I was safe from that stuff since I converted... time to torture the kids ^^

Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 26, 2019, 18:31:08
It is clear that the poster is speaking of his opinion, and that of others.  Having an opinion different than yours does not a troll make.   The negative response from other posters does however seem to confirm his opinion of conservatives....

First off, I'm not conservative. Nor did I vote CPC (or PPC or libertarian for that matter) this time round. I couldn't vote for any of the clowns, and since my riding was going to be a slam dunk for the CPC anyway I showed up and scratched my ballot.

I read his posts as the thread developed and genuinely believe there is someone on the other end that is deliberately making comments about Scheer in areas where Trudeau is actually the worst offender of the same/similar character offense by ten-fold, in order to get others wound up. The fact that it is subtle / believable is why it's "master" level, as the best trolling goes undetected. That's why I never responded, because it looks like legit trolling.

I.e. Commenting on how dishonest Scheer is and cannot be trusted, while simultaneously actively supporting Trudeau who is a documented liar on something with seriously grave consequences to Canadians...

Commenting on how Scheer "may have" broken the law re: insurance licensing which is a "big deal," while simultaneously actively supporting Trudeau who has broken 2 ethics laws and likely committed a breach of trust...

Commenting on how Scheer has no idea what it's like to grow up in the "real world" and has no "real world experience," while in the same sentence giving Trudeau a pass despite that he was born into political royalty.

His comments towards CPC voters were not exactly astute, re: how tight the election is... "What's wrong with voters?"


If it's not trolling, oh well... I'm just calling it as I see it, and choosing not to let those types of weird arguments (trolling or just genuinely oblivious) get me wound up and suck time away from discussing more credible differences between the leaders. Particularly since I wasn't exactly in love with Scheer either.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 26, 2019, 20:01:04
Quote from: Ballz


Commenting on how Scheer "may have" broken the law re: insurance licensing which is a "big deal," while simultaneously actively supporting Trudeau who has broken 2 ethics laws and likely committed a breach of trust...


You forgot sexually assaulted a reporter.


Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 27, 2019, 19:16:28
You forgot sexually assaulted a reporter.

Shocking. How could anyone be a cheerleader for an individual like that?

Quote
"I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pu--y. You can do anything."

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 27, 2019, 19:31:56
Is this satire? Get 15k for being fired??? What about UI, like us plebs?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/house-of-commons-transition-services-1.5335399
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 27, 2019, 19:52:00
Is this satire? Get 15k for being fired??? What about UI, like us plebs?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/house-of-commons-transition-services-1.5335399

Politicians are not employees. E.g. They couldn't fire Rob Ford. Can they fire federal politicians?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 27, 2019, 20:11:41
Is this satire? Get 15k for being fired??? What about UI, like us plebs?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/house-of-commons-transition-services-1.5335399

I don't really have a problem with it because it is something that is being made available to all party's.  They give up their previous jobs and most likely can't go back to them and depending on their age, might have a tough time finding meaningful employment.  When Reg Force mbr's get medically released, they are basically getting fired and we get a package to try to help us have an easier reintegration in to civilian life. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 27, 2019, 20:44:19
The training and education program seems generous for veterans.

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/education-and-jobs/back-to-school/education-training-benefit
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 27, 2019, 20:59:10
I don't really have a problem with it because it is something that is being made available to all party's.  They give up their previous jobs and most likely can't go back to them and depending on their age, might have a tough time finding meaningful employment.  When Reg Force mbr's get medically released, they are basically getting fired and we get a package to try to help us have an easier reintegration in to civilian life.

So if I get released from my job, having given up my previous vocation, do I deserve a hand out as well over and above UI?

Most politicians will have post secondary education of some sort, the average Canadian will not. Consulting positions or activist positions are far more readily available for outed politicians then average Canadians. Not to mention do they not get a hefty pension and other benefits? I think politicians do not need any extra special help, but we could always ask those who are faced with losing their job right now or have lost?

Sorry I am a small government kind of person and I think they should just recieve UI, not extra's on top. They should be in it, to serve Canada, not get rich.. policies enacted by politicians that help politicians raise my eyebrows.

Canadian Forces members to me is a seperate issue,  they should be taken care of. Until politicians stop lying to us, I wont support giving them a cushy life.. waste of money to me.

Also politicians do not run the risk of ending up dead, if they screw up at work. For that price I think our boys should be taken care of.

Now having said that, I think everyone should do their best to take care of themselves. Plan, budget and prepare for the worst case scenarions. Instead of relying on handouts.

But I suspect we will agree to disagree.
Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 27, 2019, 21:11:08
Shocking. How could anyone be a cheerleader for an individual like that?

A comment about Trump, right on time.
Didn't you just make a post about keeping American politics out of the Canadian politics thread?

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 27, 2019, 21:13:04
Anyone who has been an MP, even if they somehow became one having nothing (unlikely), will have built a network that most people can only dream of. That network in infinitely more valuable than career transition services, further education, etc. If I could pay $15k for a network like that, I'd do it immediately. They are not going to have any problems finding "meaningful" employment.

That is all ignoring the fact that most politicians are already well-established, well-educated, and greatly networked in order to actually get the job in the first place.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 27, 2019, 21:19:23
I knew my previous MP very well before he lost in the 2015 election.  He is now working as a staffer in one of the other MP's office not making that much money.  So, contrary to popular belief, life is not easy for them once they lose an election and are not old enough to collect a pension.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 27, 2019, 21:25:35
I knew my previous MP very well before he lost in the 2015 election.  He is now working as a staffer in one of the other MP's office not making that much money.  So, contrary to popular belief, life is not easy for them once they lose an election and are not old enough to collect a pension.

Assuming a Director of ‘something’ for the other MP, vice photocopy clerk, so an Exempt Public Service EX-01 position as a political staffer is not really too much of a hardship.

:2c:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 27, 2019, 21:42:13
Assuming a Director of ‘something’ for the other MP, vice photocopy clerk, so an Exempt Public Service EX-01 position as a political staffer is not really too much of a hardship.

:2c:
I don't know his current salary but I heard second hand that he is not even making half of what he made as an MP.  I don't think $15k is that much to help them try to get themselves back on their feet. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 27, 2019, 21:50:44
I don't know his current salary but I heard second hand that he is not even making half of what he made as an MP.  I don't think $15k is that much to help them try to get themselves back on their feet.

Half of what he made as an MP, so $85k + benefits? What's the name, I'm sure we can figure all this out. Also curious to know if that's an improvement on what they were making before they became an MP, because that's also likely.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 27, 2019, 21:54:02
I knew my previous MP very well before he lost in the 2015 election.  He is now working as a staffer in one of the other MP's office not making that much money.  So, contrary to popular belief, life is not easy for them once they lose an election and are not old enough to collect a pension.

One person, one instance, that is a far cry from their reality Ballz has pointed out.

But then again half an MPs wage, is still dang good money in Canada... but what's his name.. im interested for fact checking.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 27, 2019, 22:01:27
... an Exempt Public Service EX-01 position as a political staffer is not really too much of a hardship.
To be fair, with an EX-01 starting at just under $106K (https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/corporate/careers-cra/information-moved/pay-rates/salary-ranges-1.html), "not making that much money" depends on what "a staffer in one of the other MP's office" exactly means. 

Base salary for an MP these days is just under $179K/year (https://lop.parl.ca/sites/ParlInfo/default/en_CA/People/Salaries) - plus travel, plus office-running money, etc.

You're bang on about political staff for Ministers, especially senior Ministers, making at least EX-01 pay (https://ipolitics.ca/2011/04/10/political-staffers-quietyly-get-hefty-bonus/).

If Former MP Guy is a Constituency Assistant (the people in the local office, helping folks with enquiries, EI, Phoenix, pension, etc.) for another MP, though, according to an ad from 2017 (https://www.ndp.ca/job/matthew-dube-mp-constituency-assistant-permanent-full-time-position), he'd be making in the $55K range (let's say $58K in today bucks). 

If former MP is a Legislative Assistant based in an MP's office in Ottawa he'd be making between $30K & $70K/year (https://www2.mystfx.ca/sites/mystfx.ca.political-science/files/gmglareport.pdf), depending on experience.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 27, 2019, 22:07:13
Assuming a Director of ‘something’ for the other MP, vice photocopy clerk, so an Exempt Public Service EX-01 position as a political staffer is not really too much of a hardship.

:2c:

An "MP's employees" are not in PS or exempt positions.  Their pay comes from the Member's office budget and the individuals are considered as "employees of the MP".

https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/MAS/mas-e.pdf
Quote
3.Member’s Office Budget

The Board of Internal Economy sets the Member’s Office Budget (MOB).

The MOB consists of a basic budget and in some cases, an Elector Supplement and/or a Geographic Supplement for Members who represent densely populated or geographically large constituencies. Members whose constituencies are located in areas of the country where transportation and communication facilities may be restricted, as listed in Schedule 3 of the Canada Elections Act, also receive a Schedule 3 Supplement. The MOB is allocated each fiscal year on April 1. The Board may adjust the budget from time to time.

Members use the MOB to pay employee salaries, service contracts, some operating and travel costs, and other expenses, as determined by the Board. Members are responsible for the management of these resources and must operate within their allocated budget, as they are personally responsible for paying expenditures exceeding their budget.

The MOB includes:
•Basic budget: The basic budget for the 2019-2020 fiscal year is set at $363,600 for all constituencies
•Elector Supplement: Members who represent densely populated constituencies receive an Elector Supplement. This graduated supplement is added to the basic budget when there are70,000 electors or more on the Final Lists of Electors for the Member’s constituency, as published by the Chief Electoral Officer after an election. The Elector Supplement remains in effect for the duration of Parliament.

The maximum annual salary for an MP's employee is currently $88,300.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: stellarpanther on October 27, 2019, 22:47:53
One person, one instance, that is a far cry from their reality Ballz has pointed out.

But then again half an MPs wage, is still dang good money in Canada... but what's his name.. im interested for fact checking.
;t
I'll keep that to myself as some people knew I was friends with my MP which they didn't like. It's quite possible that some of them could be on this site and my naming him could also reveal my identity which I prefer to keep anonymous.

Secondly, I don't like to be accused of lying which is basically what you are doing since you feel the need to fact check what I'm saying.

 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 27, 2019, 22:52:57
Secondly, I don't like to be accused of lying which is basically what you are doing since you feel the need to fact check what I'm saying.

Send the name via PM?

That's an odd way to take it considering you don't actually know the info/answers we're trying to figure out here. You can't be accused of lying when you haven't provided any info to start with. I don't think anything I said suggested you were lying.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on October 28, 2019, 02:23:57
;t
I'll keep that to myself as some people knew I was friends with my MP which they didn't like. It's quite possible that some of them could be on this site and my naming him could also reveal my identity which I prefer to keep anonymous.

Secondly, I don't like to be accused of lying which is basically what you are doing since you feel the need to fact check what I'm saying.

If I knew you, which I don't. I would have a greater ability to decide wether or not you can or can not be trusted. It is the internet, my assumptions of everyone on the internet is that they are potentially lying or misrepresenting the truth.

Maybe you are telling me what you think is the truth, maybe you were lied to. I do not know. The fact of the matter remains, even if you are 100% honest or lying.. it is not representative of all MPs. One isolated case does not make a trend.

I prefer to fact check everything I can. It is not intended to insult anyone, in fact if what I find supports someomes statements I tend to trust a them more. Like say Mike, he basically fact checks himself in every post, so if he says something I trust it usually.

I am a fairly critical person and I like to gripe and whine occasionally which can be seen here, my vociferous defense of certain things. You have quoted me directly, so hence my explanation post.

As it stands, I hold my earlier position still.. because I find that it is the logical factual one. I also personally know NDP staffers, christ my cousin married the dang guy.. poor choice on her part ;) but I had great chats with him on many political subjects, I am not close minded.. I just want facts. If the majority of MPs who get unseated face financial, political and emotional hardships. I want to know, maybe I am being to hard and they fall through the cracks somehow. If that's the case, I will likely change my opinion. But I doubt it.

Any rate, did not mean to offend.
Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PPCLI Guy on October 28, 2019, 07:06:15
But then again half an MPs wage, is still dang good money in Canada...

Yes it is...and is the same rate paid to a Sgt Spec2 IPC 4, a newly promoted MWO, and a Capt with 2 years.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on October 28, 2019, 07:55:03
And if you want a job where a group of people can get you 'fired' every 4 years or less, based on a popularity contest that you cant control, then go right ahead...…..I like my stability.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 28, 2019, 10:35:38
If you want to attract people to public office, you need to provide some incentives.  Top talent likely take a loss to income.  the average Joe who runs and truly represents the general population tajkes a massive risk on stability.

I also think that people's pre conceived ideas about politicians makes them think that the average MP gets a soft landing in a cushy post MP job.  Which is more the exception than the rule.  Some have businesses they return to, or law practices or medical practices or what not.  Many struggle to find gainful employment or try to get back to what they were doing before.  A lot have to pound the pavement for work like anyone else. 

Unless you were a cabinet minister, leader or something high profile, you aren't getting high paid consulting work. 

Also, it would be interesting to see who accesses the 15k transition assistance. I don't think its everyone.   
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 28, 2019, 11:08:11
For anyone interested in the pension plan for members of parliament,
https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/pension-plan/pension-publications/reports/administration-members-parliament-retiring-allowances-act-report/frequently-asked-questions-changes-members-parliament-pension-plan.html
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 28, 2019, 11:39:29
For anyone interested in the pension plan for members of parliament,
https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/pension-plan/pension-publications/reports/administration-members-parliament-retiring-allowances-act-report/frequently-asked-questions-changes-members-parliament-pension-plan.html

Also that pension plan may be why we might not see an election for at least 2 years. A lot of NDP members will want their 6 years before the next election...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 28, 2019, 11:49:39
Interesting... you vest in the CAF pension plan with only two years of service; MPs require three times that.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on October 28, 2019, 13:29:56
An "MP's employees" are not in PS or exempt positions.  Their pay comes from the Member's office budget and the individuals are considered as "employees of the MP".

https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/MAS/mas-e.pdf
The maximum annual salary for an MP's employee is currently $88,300.

Blackadder, you are indeed correct.  I cross-linked a Minister’s staff members with a non-cabinet MP.  I stand corrected, re: Exempt PS positions.

Interesting... you vest in the CAF pension plan with only two years of service; MPs require three times that.

For RoC, but not a reduced annuity, no?

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 28, 2019, 18:53:24
After 2 years, you're vested in the CFSA. Prior to age 50, you can take a transfer value, annual allowance at age 59+, or deferred annuity if you are not yet eligible for an immediate annuity.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on October 28, 2019, 20:36:42
Aaaaaand here's why people lose faith in media ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: RangerRay on October 28, 2019, 23:32:55
I was pretty disappointed with the options. I am getting pissed off at all parties appealing to their bases, leaving true centrists isolated. I voted Tory like I usually do, but I didn’t feel proud of it. Where is the party of the Radical Centre?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: MCG on October 29, 2019, 06:50:06
I was pretty disappointed with the options. I am getting pissed off at all parties appealing to their bases, leaving true centrists isolated. I voted Tory like I usually do, but I didn’t feel proud of it. Where is the party of the Radical Centre?
What is the incentive to do otherwise when you do not need broad appeal to win under FPTP?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ModlrMike on October 29, 2019, 11:05:43
I was pretty disappointed with the options. I am getting pissed off at all parties appealing to their bases, leaving true centrists isolated. I voted Tory like I usually do, but I didn’t feel proud of it. Where is the party of the Radical Centre?

It's hard to find the center when it's the fringes that are holding onto the marking sticks, and defining what center means.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: RangerRay on October 29, 2019, 22:47:03
What is the incentive to do otherwise when you do not need broad appeal to win under FPTP?

I think that’s why the main parties only got ~33% of the vote. They appealed to their base and centrists said “a pox on all your houses”. Can’t say I blame them. Pisses me off though because that’s how you get Trumps and Trudeaus.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 29, 2019, 23:33:48
My main concern is the collapse of the Conservative vote.  67% in AB and SK masks under 29% everywhere else in Canada.  That's not a government in waiting...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on October 30, 2019, 00:58:47
And sadly their move toward the centre wasn't on social issues, it was on fiscal policy....
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: CloudCover on October 30, 2019, 01:14:41
My main concern is the collapse of the Conservative vote.  67% in AB and SK masks under 29% everywhere else in Canada.  That's not a government in waiting...

I thought they took the popular vote? No?   
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on October 30, 2019, 01:18:42
Overall, yes, but so heavily weighted in two provinces that it masked their extreme weakness outside the Kenny/ Moe area.  If you get under 30% of the vote in 80% of the provinces, you'll have extreme difficulty in forming a government.

If they don't fix this in the '21 election, it may be much worse than Campbell's post-Mulroney collapse.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Spencer100 on October 30, 2019, 09:58:50
What center?  The Tories are about as center as you get.  Their platform was very in the middle.  The choice in Canada, is soft socialism, Green socialism, French socialism, international socialism.  and the Tory party. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 30, 2019, 13:53:59
Conservatives need to bend the knee a bit more on social issues to get to that magic 38-40%.

That said, there is no prospect of a backwards step regardless what people wish to imagine or use to scare themselves or others away from voting for conservative candidates.  For social conservatives (so-cons) to pursue their aims requires a government with a majority of so-con MPs.  For that to happen requires a polity of so-cons in Canada, distributed broadly and efficiently so as to be powerful enough to nominate and elect said majority.  If such a polity existed, common sense suggests it would have expressed itself in the recent election if not at some time in the preceding two or three decades.  Therefore, no such threat exists.

And a coalition of so-cons and moderate conservatives (mod-cons) will not do it either.  A mod-con candidate will by definition be someone who has either (passively) refused to endorse the contentious items of the so-con platform or (actively) committed to opposing them (ie. would vote against a private member's bill).  The latter is a declared opponent; the former has political cover (no commitment to support) and very likely an implied bargain with constituents and will want to be re-elected.

To propose that there might exist a coalition of so-cons and Trojan Horse mod-cons is tinfoil-hat territory.  Regardless, the mod-cons would be extinguished in a subsequent election and status quo ante asserted by the next government.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 31, 2019, 13:34:59
Conservatives need to bend the knee a bit more on social issues to get to that magic 38-40%.

That said, there is no prospect of a backwards step regardless what people wish to imagine or use to scare themselves or others away from voting for conservative candidates.  For social conservatives (so-cons) to pursue their aims requires a government with a majority of so-con MPs.  For that to happen requires a polity of so-cons in Canada, distributed broadly and efficiently so as to be powerful enough to nominate and elect said majority.  If such a polity existed, common sense suggests it would have expressed itself in the recent election if not at some time in the preceding two or three decades.  Therefore, no such threat exists.

And a coalition of so-cons and moderate conservatives (mod-cons) will not do it either.  A mod-con candidate will by definition be someone who has either (passively) refused to endorse the contentious items of the so-con platform or (actively) committed to opposing them (ie. would vote against a private member's bill).  The latter is a declared opponent; the former has political cover (no commitment to support) and very likely an implied bargain with constituents and will want to be re-elected.

To propose that there might exist a coalition of so-cons and Trojan Horse mod-cons is tinfoil-hat territory.  Regardless, the mod-cons would be extinguished in a subsequent election and status quo ante asserted by the next government.
I agree that Mod-cons do not want this dug up again. But the so-cons are not shy about where they stand. When they are out touting the amount of anti abortion candidates they have running, mostly for the CPC and have a party leader that come hell or high water wont march in a pride parade anywhere in the country, and has a video of himself in the house of commons comparing gay marriage to dogs, and wont apologize for it, ya, that's going to make a lot of people uncomfortable, especially in urban Canada. Toss in what is going on the in the USA, and how some states are putting in place restrictive rules around abortion and some people will definitely decide to park their vote elsewhere simply to avoid any chance of that can of worms opening up in Canada.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 31, 2019, 14:02:19
My appeal is to rational people, not instinctive worriers.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 31, 2019, 14:34:33
My appeal is to rational people, not instinctive worriers.

Where are you planning on finding the former in BC? ;)
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 31, 2019, 14:38:58
My appeal is to rational people, not instinctive worriers.
Forget rational people and insinctive worriers.

Focus on that urban vote.

Among the 60 electoral districts with the highest population density in Canada, the Conservative won a grand total of zero of them 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 31, 2019, 14:54:14
come hell or high water wont march in a pride parade anywhere in the country,

I'm satisfied if a politician tells the truth, obeys the law and keeps the peace. They don't have to march in parades.

But, if they want to, might be wise to start with one of the tamer ones out of town. 

Or, maybe a flag raising.

See how they like it before trying the big parade - which is 22 city blocks long.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 31, 2019, 14:56:25
Where are you planning on finding the former in BC? ;)

Have faith; there are a couple of 'Pale settlements' here abouts, populated by the politically agnostic silent majority.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 31, 2019, 18:22:20
Why would anyone demand a leader march in any parade - gay, straight, anti abortion or pro choice?

Its so much garbage that a political leader "has" to march in any parade.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 31, 2019, 18:35:52
Why would anyone demand a leader march in any parade - gay, straight, anti abortion or pro choice?

Its so much garbage that a political leader "has" to march in any parade.

Why march when you can ride?  :)

That's our Mayor Mel on a vintage fire truck. More water than you can carry!

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 31, 2019, 19:43:28
Why would anyone demand a leader march in any parade - gay, straight, anti abortion or pro choice?

Its so much garbage that a political leader "has" to march in any parade.


No one has to. 

But they also have to deal with whatever comes from that. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 31, 2019, 20:18:06

No one has to. 

But they also have to deal with whatever comes from that.

I'd actually like to see or hear a politician refuse.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 31, 2019, 20:37:13

No one has to. 

But they also have to deal with whatever comes from that.

Let me guess what happens.

People say "we respect your views and right to attend this event or not and we won't view a decision not to attend as an attack against us, or become outraged and scream for you to lose your job".
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on October 31, 2019, 20:42:37
I'd actually like to see or hear a politician refuse.

Mayor Ford went to the flag raising ( not with much enthusiasm ), but not the parade.

Every other mayor since, and including, Lastman has marched or rode in the parade.

Politicians don't have to go. City police and paramedics are mandated to. Of course, we knew that when we hired on.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on October 31, 2019, 21:05:45
Let me guess what happens.

People say "we respect your views and right to attend this event or not and we won't view a decision not to attend as an attack against us, or become outraged and scream for you to lose your job".

You must be new... ;D
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on October 31, 2019, 22:52:35
Why would anyone demand a leader march in any parade - gay, straight, anti abortion or pro choice?

Its so much garbage that a political leader "has" to march in any parade.
No politician has too.

By that same token,  nobody has to vote for the politician that doesn't.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 31, 2019, 23:47:49
No politician has too.

By that same token,  nobody has to vote for the politician that doesn't.
HS is right. Politicians are vilified if they don't. The same way celebrities were vilified if they didn't tweet disapproval for Trump.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: ballz on November 01, 2019, 01:38:28
and has a video of himself in the house of commons comparing gay marriage to dogs, and wont apologize for it

I think Scheer has enough things wrong about him that people can not play stupid on this one and pretend that they don't know that the relatively well-known dog's tail vignette has *nothing* to do with comparing the subject to a dog.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on November 01, 2019, 08:47:19
I think Scheer has enough things wrong about him that people can not play stupid on this one and pretend that they don't know that the relatively well-known dog's tail vignette has *nothing* to do with comparing the subject to a dog.
I can honestly say I don't get the reference.

And regardless,  it has aged very badly. Scheer could have offered a apology for it,  instead offering a response of the issue of gay marriage is settled in Canada, by the way,  Justin Trudeau bad.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on November 01, 2019, 08:57:27
I think Scheer has enough things wrong about him that people can not play stupid on this one and pretend that they don't know that the relatively well-known dog's tail vignette has *nothing* to do with comparing the subject to a dog.
This (https://openparliament.ca/debates/2005/4/5/andrew-scheer-1/only/), for the record, from Scheer's statement (read from a piece of paper) the House of Commons in 2005:
Quote
... Abraham Lincoln has been credited with this quote, which goes something like this, “How many legs would a dog have if you counted the tail as a leg?” The answer is just four. Just because a tail is called a leg does not make it a leg. If Bill C-38 passes, governments and individual Canadians will be forced to call a tail a leg, nothing more, but that is not inconsequential, for its effect on marriage, such an integral building block of our society, would have far-reaching effects ...
More before & after context @ the link.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on November 01, 2019, 09:05:57
Except Abe Lincoln's actual quote was about a calf, not a dog.  Semantics but it wasn't even an accurate quote.  I don't believe that he was comparing gay marriage to dogs. 

The point of his quote was to argue that gay marriage was not in fact marriage because they can't have kids.  Which is his religious dogma that he brought into politics.

He was arguing that gay marriage was not valid from a religious stand point. 

That is all that we need to know about it.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on November 01, 2019, 09:17:25
Except Abe Lincoln's actual quote was about a calf, not a dog.  Semantics but it wasn't even an accurate quote.  I don't believe that he was comparing gay marriage to dogs.  Unlike CPC MP Cheryl Gallant who at around the same time said that it could lead to bestiality... ::)

The point of his quote was to argue that gay marriage was not in fact marriage because they can't have kids.  Which is his religious dogma that he brought into politics.

He was arguing that gay marriage was not valid from a religious stand point. 

That is all that we need to know about it.
Which,  I think one can say without much argument, is terribly out of place in 2019. Understanding full well he said this in 2005, but couple this with refusal to march in pride parades,  refusal to say what his current stance on gay marriage is beyond the law is settled in Canada,  or that his views have evolved but won't say how,  and how anti abortion groups are openly gloating about the amount of candidates they have running and you get why people,  especially in urban ridings,  get very uncomfortable with Scheer.

All he had to do was say I'm sorry for that speech,  my views in 2005 are not my views now,  and while my religion isn't supportive of gay marriage,  I personally am. I apologize to anyone I may have hurt with my words in 2005, and promise to do better going forward.

That would have defused the issue far better than what he did say.

*Unless of course that was not true,  in which case... Yikes. 64 percent of Canadians support same sex marriage,  its best to be in lockstep with the majority of Canadians when running for office. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on November 01, 2019, 09:25:14
Altair:  PM sent to you.  thanks.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on November 01, 2019, 09:30:06
Altair:  PM sent to you.  thanks.
If you say so.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on November 01, 2019, 10:11:15
Maybe Scheer was worried about all those new insurance policies he was going to have to cut for the newly empowered gay community?

He was an insurance broker right? :dunno:

 :stirpot:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on November 01, 2019, 11:35:25
All he had to do was say I'm sorry for that speech,  my views in 2005 are not my views now,  and while my religion isn't supportive of gay marriage,  I personally am. I apologize to anyone I may have hurt with my words in 2005, and promise to do better going forward.

Are you Trudeau's publicist? That's a word for word copy of Trudeau's "apology" over wearing blackface on multiple occasions.

The problem with Scheer's speech is it got blown out of proportion as it fit the narrative the Liberals and Liberal-friendly media was pushing. In an era of cancel-culture where we destroy comedian's careers for jokes they told 20 years ago, we have people supporting someone to be the Prime Minister of our country who wore blackface on multiple occasions. Kind of puts his India debacle into context: Trudeau has little to no respect for minority cultures, he just wants their votes.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: QV on November 01, 2019, 12:07:25
Are you Trudeau's publicist? That's a word for word copy of Trudeau's "apology" over wearing blackface on multiple occasions.

The problem with Scheer's speech is it got blown out of proportion as it fit the narrative the Liberals and Liberal-friendly media was pushing. In an era of cancel-culture where we destroy comedian's careers for jokes they told 20 years ago, we have people supporting someone to be the Prime Minister of our country who wore blackface on multiple occasions. Kind of puts his India debacle into context: Trudeau has little to no respect for minority cultures, he just wants their votes.

And the media doesn't really care about racist behaviour unless it's to destroy the opposition to their preferred candidate.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Remius on November 01, 2019, 12:26:44
And the media doesn't really care about racist behaviour unless it's to destroy the opposition to their preferred candidate.

It did.  At the beginning but when they saw the public at large didn't care they moved away from it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563

A big difference the LPC vs the CPC this past election was getting in front of issues.  Trudeau stepped up and apologised quickly.  Scheer went into hiding, avoided questions or didn't answer them and only after days did he ever address them.  If you want to keep something I n the media just avoid the questions and look like you are hiding something. 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 01, 2019, 13:48:04
It did.  At the beginning but when they saw the public at large didn't care they moved away from it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563


"The public at large didn't care"

I think 'Left wing people on Twitter and Facebook didn't seem to care' would be more accurate, according to that article.

It was world news and a big joke about the woke feminist president getting egg on his face, again. I think our media likes to tell is what we think is big news and what's not.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Good2Golf on November 01, 2019, 14:00:18
"The public at large didn't care"

I think 'Left wing people on Twitter and Facebook didn't seem to care' would be more accurate, according to that article.

It was world news and a big joke about the woke feminist president getting egg on his face, again. I think our media likes to tell is what we think is big news and what's not.

That was true, I was traveling in business a lot at the time and saw it globally...HOWEVER...people outside of Canada are eligible to vote in an election, so...   True=/=relevant   
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: QV on November 01, 2019, 14:06:50
It did.  At the beginning but when they saw the public at large didn't care they moved away from it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563

A big difference the LPC vs the CPC this past election was getting in front of issues.  Trudeau stepped up and apologised quickly.  Scheer went into hiding, avoided questions or didn't answer them and only after days did he ever address them.  If you want to keep something I n the media just avoid the questions and look like you are hiding something.

I think you under represent just how much effort the media has made to shape public opinion for the LPC, and how successful it was.  Granted , they've reported on negative things about the LPC and Trudeau, but only because they absolutely had to, and then they quickly moved to something else.  If the CPC or PPC leader had been embroiled in any of the same scandals as Trudeau, it would be round the clock attacks until that person was completely destroyed.  Many people employed in the media were fighting for their financial survival, both the CPC and PPC would have reduced their funding to one extent or another.  As long as the LPC keep tossing hundreds of millions at the media, and the CPC suggest they will defund, the media coverage will be comparatively biased.  The average citizen just catches a 10 second headline then back to kids, hockey, work, etc... this is a huge advantage for the LPC with the media largely on their side.   

 
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Altair on November 01, 2019, 14:28:16
It did.  At the beginning but when they saw the public at large didn't care they moved away from it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563

A big difference the LPC vs the CPC this past election was getting in front of issues.  Trudeau stepped up and apologised quickly.  Scheer went into hiding, avoided questions or didn't answer them and only after days did he ever address them.  If you want to keep something I n the media just avoid the questions and look like you are hiding something.
Canadians tend to be a forgiving people.

Its why Scheer and his non apology befuddled me.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on November 01, 2019, 14:45:31
, we have people supporting someone to be the Prime Minister of our country who wore blackface on multiple occasions.

People like,

Quote
President Barack Obama endorses Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau
https://edmonton.citynews.ca/2019/10/16/barack-obama-justin-trudeau-endorsement/

Martin Luther King's son says he would vote for Trudeau despite pipeline and blackface
https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/martin-luther-king-iii-says-he-would-vote-for-trudeau-despite-pipeline-and-blackface
The oldest son and oldest living child of civil rights leaders Martin Luther King Jr. and Coretta Scott King.

Raptors boss Masai Ujiri backs Trudeau
https://www.hilltimes.com/2019/10/16/a-presidential-endorsement-raptors-boss-masai-ujiri-backs-trudeau/219505
Nigerian professional basketball executive and former player who is the president of basketball operations of the Toronto Raptors in the National Basketball Association (NBA).

Rhetorical question: Any similar endorsements for Mr. Scheer?

Perhaps next time the CPC will heed this advice,

Especially any CPC leader who won't look the more extreme right elements of the party straight in the eye and say, "STFU; that isn't who we are."  Waffling by saying "I won't open that can of worms.... but hey, if any back benchers want to, who am I to critique" lost him a bunch of credibility.

Or, perhaps not.


 



Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: AbdullahD on November 01, 2019, 14:54:25
I may have to nuance my views on blackface now... I live in a native predominate town... halloween was last night...

It was amazing the number of kids who had darkened faces in order to fit with their costumes...

Yes, most these kids are part native to a degree. So maybe cause they are it is ok? Any rate maybe I am just old now? Maybe this is why the blackface issue has no traction... it is my first year seeing this.. the white kids didn't touch it though... maybe people up here just do not care and it is only bad when right wing, white adults do it?

I was just amazed. My daughter's girl friend was the first to come over and I know for a fact their is not a malicious bone in that family anywhere, great folks, great neighbors and great Canadian's. Maybe the issue has evolved past what it used to be and I missed it.

Anyone else experience this or just me? Because if it is country wide.. maybe I am holding wrong views and will have to ponder if it is still ignorant to do or not.
Abdullah
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Bread Guy on November 01, 2019, 15:59:40
... the public at large who voted didn't care enough for it to change their vote ...
Another refinement on that ...
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on November 02, 2019, 11:07:52
At the beginning but when they saw the public at large didn't care they moved away from it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563

Interesting,

Quote
Trudeau 'blackface' discussion surged online and then waned after 3 days, report finds

: most of the blackface-related tweets coming from Conservative partisan accounts, for example, were only seen by other Conservative partisans, the report found.
 
"Among partisan Twitter users, Conservatives are driving the conversation about the controversy," the report found. "The blackface-related hashtags are disproportionately populated by right-leaning partisans who are largely speaking among themselves."





Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 02, 2019, 11:26:01
Interesting,

Almost like Trudeau can do no wrong among a majority Liberals eh?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on November 02, 2019, 11:27:35
Almost like Trudeau can do no wrong among a majority Liberals eh?

I just know what I read in the article posted by Remius.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 02, 2019, 12:43:49
I may have to nuance my views on blackface now... I live in a native predominate town... halloween was last night...

It was amazing the number of kids who had darkened faces in order to fit with their costumes...

Yes, most these kids are part native to a degree. So maybe cause they are it is ok? Any rate maybe I am just old now? Maybe this is why the blackface issue has no traction... it is my first year seeing this.. the white kids didn't touch it though... maybe people up here just do not care and it is only bad when right wing, white adults do it?

I was just amazed. My daughter's girl friend was the first to come over and I know for a fact their is not a malicious bone in that family anywhere, great folks, great neighbors and great Canadian's. Maybe the issue has evolved past what it used to be and I missed it.

Anyone else experience this or just me? Because if it is country wide.. maybe I am holding wrong views and will have to ponder if it is still ignorant to do or not.
Abdullah

Fortunately, most normal people don't care about that stuff and just want to have fun. It's the 'Perpetually Outraged' who feed off of the angst to draw attention to themselves.

And most of them are in big cities where they can share their feigned grief more easily.

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PPCLI Guy on November 02, 2019, 12:46:24
Fortunately, most normal people don't care about that stuff and just want to have fun. It's the 'Perpetually Outraged' who feed off of the angst to draw attention to themselves.

And most of them are in big cities online forums that feed their confirmation biases where they can share their feigned grief more easily.

Just sayin'
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on November 02, 2019, 12:47:26
People, especially conservative supporters, got too wound up over "blackface".

The business with the music/dancing (younger years) was tasteless, yes.  The later dress-up for the party - not at all.  Did everyone forget Trudeau was a drama teacher, and that people who do drama tend to dress a role as well as they can?

"Blackface" is the black-and-red big-"lip" caricature.  Darkening (or lightening) a skin tone is not blackface.  Dressing up, as long as it is done to mimic rather than mock, is not derogatory, even if done light-heartedly.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Blackadder1916 on November 02, 2019, 12:51:35
Fortunately, most normal people don't care about that stuff and just want to have fun. It's the 'Perpetually Outraged' who feed off of the angst to draw attention to themselves.

And most of them are in big cities where they can share their feigned grief more easily.

So, are saying that Trudeau (before he became a politician) was just one of the normal people?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Brad Sallows on November 02, 2019, 12:54:06
"Granted , they've reported on negative things about the LPC and Trudeau, but only because they absolutely had to, and then they quickly moved to something else."

The opening reporting on Trudeau and the government's missteps was genuine enough.  Persistence does seem to lack.  But some study would be needed to bear that perception out.  A comparison of the Duffy business to the SNC-Lavalin business (two examples, there are more) would be interesting, to determine whether:
1) The media lets matters drop if the public generally shows no interest.
2) The media keeps at it or drops it depending on which partisans are interested or disinterested.
3) The media is persistent on important scandals regardless whether the public seems disinterested.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: FJAG on November 02, 2019, 15:56:06
People, especially conservative supporters, got too wound up over "blackface".

When it get's to which side gets "too wound up over blackface" I think the political persuasion of who is wearing the blackface dictates which side get's "too wound up".

 :cheers:
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: PuckChaser on November 02, 2019, 16:01:34
"Blackface" is the black-and-red big-"lip" caricature.  Darkening (or lightening) a skin tone is not blackface.  Dressing up, as long as it is done to mimic rather than mock, is not derogatory, even if done light-heartedly.

People will understand you're dressed up as Aladdin without blackface. People don't need you to be in blackface when you're singing "Day-O".

If Andrew Scheer dressed up that way multiple times over a few years from high schooler into adulthood (while being employed as a teacher), the media would still be talking about it. Justin Trudeau doing something racist doesn't fit the narrative, so it doesn't get the airtime. Duffy incident got the airtime because it fit the "big bad crony capitalist Tory" narrative.
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 02, 2019, 16:40:21
People will understand you're dressed up as Aladdin without blackface.

Or if it's Aladdin dressed like an African-American.


(https://assets.rbl.ms/21648700/origin.png)

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on November 03, 2019, 13:03:12
People, especially conservative supporters, got too wound up over "blackface".

Maybe. We may have to get used to it,

Quote
Trudeau 'blackface' discussion surged online and then waned after 3 days, report finds

: most of the blackface-related tweets coming from Conservative partisan accounts, for example, were only seen by other Conservative partisans, the report found.
 
"Among partisan Twitter users, Conservatives are driving the conversation about the controversy," the report found. "The blackface-related hashtags are disproportionately populated by right-leaning partisans who are largely speaking among themselves."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563





Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: owl timer on November 03, 2019, 21:38:25
The only reason why Canadians voted Liberal party, they are racism. They prefer a teacher from British Colombia instead of the French citizen from Quebec named Thomas Joseph Mulcair. This story of blackface is related.


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Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: BeyondTheNow on November 03, 2019, 22:03:16
The only reason why Canadians voted Liberal party, they are racism. They prefer a teacher from British Colombia instead of the French citizen from Quebec named Thomas Joseph Mulcair. This story of blackface is related.


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English as a second language or not, your blanket statement of referring to Canadians who voted Liberal as being racist is highly inappropriate and grossly inaccurate. You’ve been warned publicly and privately.

Staff
Title: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: owl timer on November 03, 2019, 22:24:05
English as a first language or not, your blanket statement of referring to Canadians who voted Liberal as being racist is highly inappropriate and grossly inaccurate. You’ve been warned publicly and privately.

Staff
Sorry to offend someone, I am a bit sarcastic with a real situation.
You know Andrew Scheer has American and Canadian citizenship, Tom Mulcair has French and Canadian citizenship and Justin Trudeau is only a Canadian citizen. I find strange it was an insult, a black face, in a party when everybody knows he was the son of Canadian prime minister and a popular personality before to be a politician. He tried to hide himself. They repeat everywhere he was a drama teacher. Also, Canadians talk about freedom but this is never from Canadian identity.  What is inappropriate or appropriate not matter of words.  Canada is not a country where people are racist, nationalist, xenophobia, chauvinism or patriotic.

The fear of words is terrible because knowledge is freedom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67UjJHZ1W5o


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Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 20, 2019, 21:12:45
Edit : Moving forums

Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: mariomike on November 29, 2019, 19:19:21
Saw this in US Military,

Watch it your bias is showing. I don't see you bashing your PM.

Probably because US Military is not the place to discuss the Prime Minister of Canada.

At any rate, he was re-elected. How and why has been the subject of much discussion. Did President Obama's endorsement have anything to do with it? Who knows?
Title: Re: General Election: Oct 21, 2019
Post by: dapaterson on June 13, 2020, 22:33:54
Simcoe North Liberal candidate from the 2019 election was arrested last month and charged ith child pornography offences.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7059810/simcoe-north-former-liberal-candidate-child-pornography/