Army.ca Forums

Air-Force.ca => Aircrew Trades => Topic started by: aesop081 on November 21, 2004, 16:52:06

Title: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 21, 2004, 16:52:06
Here's the deal,

I have remustered to AESOp last April and i am currently on course at CFANS.  Everytime i get asked what MOC i am and i answer, i get this dumb look, as if i had 3 heads or something !!  Is AESOp that obscure a trade ? Nobody seems to know anything about it !

Also, as of now, it is a "remuster-only" trade but there is talk of opening it to general recruiting.  Any opinions on the good/bad  of this idea ??
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Inch on November 21, 2004, 17:42:11
It's not that obscure, I see AESOps everyday.  ;D Though to the rest of the world I would say it's pretty obscure, especially the army since AESOps don't tend to work with the army at all. Ask any martime operator and you'll get a "of course I know what an AESOp is!"

My point of view, I'd rather have an experienced Cpl or above sitting behind me than a no hook Pte. It's a different trade than Flight Engineer for example, since all FEs must be AVN techs if I'm not mistaken. AESOps come from all kinds of different backgrounds, but the thing they have in common is that they're experienced CF members, something that may be difficult to quantify, but I feel is a definite asset. Given the way we operate and the technical expertise required, I'd say that a Pte new to the military would find it hard to adjust. Not only are they learning the military life, but they're also learning a highly technical trade. The rest of the aircrew (pilots and navs) have sufficient time to adjust to the military, 14 weeks of Basic training, 8 months of french, and 1+ years for Navs and nearly 2 years for Pilots in MOC training.  I couldn't imagine a Pte fresh off BMQ heading to Winnipeg for the AESOp course, by the way, how long is the course?

Just my 2 pesos.

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 21, 2004, 18:55:46
I can see your point.  BAC is 6 long months here at CFANS then another 4 at OTU, then BEW, SERE, sea survival..........

First flight is in 2 days......low-level radar nav.......

Bumpy rides and boarding passes here we come !
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Inch on November 21, 2004, 19:20:02
See what I mean? So after 10 weeks of BMQ, then 6 months on course, you could have a guy at the OTU with less than a year in.   Hardly enough time to even get his pay figured out.   AESOps aside, we're all officers in MH, MP has FEs as well but you get my point.   We're highly technical trades and I don't want to have to worry about solving my AESOp's pay problems since there'd be no intermediate step between a Pte and a Capt in an MH, not to sound like a jerk but, I don't solve pay problems unless it makes it to my level in the chain because it can't be solved lower.

I didn't count OTU or SERE or any of the other aircrew related courses since we all have to do that, though our OTU is closer to 6 months for Sea King pilots.

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Sam69 on November 22, 2004, 17:48:04
I suppose that I would take a contrarian view. While experience is always an asset, there is no reason that the AESOp position could not be filled by a raw recruit. The fact is, the environment in which any new member of a maritime crew operates is highly supervised and regimented. The junior co-pilot is teamed with a senior aircraft captain and the junior TACCO is teamed with a senior AESOp and/or a senior crew commander. A properly motivated new recruit could be a great asset to any crew.

Having said all that, drawing from other trades is also a great way to offer people alternative career streams within the CF and a way to select and reward strong performers.

Do AESOp candidates have to complete the aircrew selection process yet?

Sam
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Inch on November 22, 2004, 17:54:37
Good points Sam, I didn't think of it that way. I'm still in favour of it being a remuster only trade, but that's just my opinion.

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 22, 2004, 18:16:18
Negative, AESOp's do NOT have to go trough ASC.  That has been looked at a few years ago and rejected.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 23, 2004, 12:38:59
Quick update...first flight is today...........

4 hours of low-level radar nav........

boarding passes all around !!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hiv on November 23, 2004, 15:53:34
I'm not sure how I stumbled across AESop but I've been fascinated ever since then. January will be my first eligible time to apply so hopefully all goes well. I can't say I'm not envious of you!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Sam69 on November 23, 2004, 19:44:06
Negative, AESOp's do NOT have to go trough ASC.  That has been looked at a few years ago and rejected.

Pity. There were a number of good reasons why this step had been recommended and it seemed to make good sense to me.

Sam
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 24, 2004, 01:57:42
In my "limited" experience as an AESOp........ASC is not required. I have been doing fine up to now and i see no benefit in using ASC to select candidates for the trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Inch on November 24, 2004, 06:14:07
Did you have to do the medical part of ACS? The part they do at DCIEM or whatever they call it now in Downsview. That is one part I think would be necessary. Though I guess it's not as big of a deal if you guys have a heart murmur or something similar.

Sam, what were some of the reasons they came up with?

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 24, 2004, 09:10:52
All medicals were done at application and were done by the flight surgeon at my home base.  The file was then sent on to DCIEM for aproval by the flight curus there.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Bograt on November 24, 2004, 09:27:49
AESOp,

How was your flight?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 24, 2004, 09:43:14
Cancelled..........stupid VFR minimums !!!!! Try again thursday !
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ex-Zipperhead on November 24, 2004, 13:27:17
That really sucks when your pumped up for it.

Hope tomorrow goes better for you.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Inch on November 24, 2004, 16:42:40
Cancelled..........stupid VFR minimums !!!!! Try again thursday !

Man, it was a sunny day here in Shearwater. Too bad 75% of our helos are busted. I did Sim 2 today and should have clearhood 1 next week, serviceability permitting of course!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 24, 2004, 17:02:11
We had a bery nice day here in winnipeg ( well above the 1500 ft, 3 miles minimum) but in our ops area around the inner lakes, things were rapidly deteoriating ( somewhere in the neighbourhood of 800 ft ceilings and 1/4 mile vis !!!   Not condusive to training that is supposed to be done in VMC.   The outlook for tomorow looks better, the other crew on the course managed to get airborne today.   The we do LLRN again on friday and then move on to Homings.

Update: Today's flight never got off the ground.......plane was broken....went to alternate plane.....broken too !!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Sam69 on November 24, 2004, 17:58:41
Sam, what were some of the reasons they came up with?

Inch,

IIRC, the most recent debate over whether or not the AESOps should go through ASC began with the discussion of whether or not AESOps should fill the SENSO seat in the new MH. If you remember, the decision had been made in 1993 to go with an all officer crew for the maritime version of the EH-101 (2 pilots, 2 navs) when we were buying them under the NSA program. However, with the cancellation of the program the decision was put aside and the debate was re-ignited. Part of the reasoning for switching to an all officer crew was the added complexity of the passive acoustic mission (the AESO seat is filled by a Nav on the Aurora and the SENSO seat was filled by a Nav on the CH-124B HELTAS). When a detailed analysis was conducted (after much debate and mud slinging), it was decided that the SENSO seat on the MH could be fillled by an AESOp and that this was probably the more cost effective option. However, because of the complexity of the passive acoustic mission, it was recommended that AESOp candidates be filtered through ASC. AFAIK, the recommendations of the WG were never formally accepted nor rejected by CAS. The reason given at the time was that CAS saw no reason to change the status quo until he knew what the new MH would be; the implication being that the decision on who would man the SENSO seat would be re-visited after the announcement of the new MH. AFAIK, there is no intention to ever re-open the debate and the status quo SK manning will apply to the MH.

I've grossly oversimplified what was a difficult and painful debate, but the essence of the history is there. That's why I asked if AESOps were now being sent through the ASC.

FWIW, I was on 423 Squadron the day they pulled all the AESOps in to the main briefing room and told them that they would not have a seat on the EH-101. That day caused a rift and a mistrust that extends to this day (particularly between the AESOp senior leadership and the Nav senior leadership).

Sam
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 24, 2004, 18:15:00
That mistrust is evident here at CFANS as we are kinda treated as second rate citizens by the nav comunity.  We always seem to be an afterthought and it is very apparent to us.  I find it verry hard as we have to share everything with nav students but we get " i'm an officer so i'm hollier than thou" from them.

As for complexity of the new sensor systems on the cyclone, i'm positive than as an NCM i can manage to operate them properly regardless of the fact that i did not go trough ASC.  If the training program is first rate then a BAC graduate will not have any problems.  The current BAC is spot on in preparing us for OTU and the next course will be even better as they will incorporate BEW, ESM and ISAR in the coriculum.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Inch on November 24, 2004, 18:17:33
Gotcha, I don't recall much from the EH101 contract, I was 15yrs old in 1993 and I was more interested in girls than anything to do with MH. Was there any talk of going with a 3 man crew similar to the USN Seahawks? Since I've been on scene, I've only heard of the current setup wrt to crews.

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Sam69 on November 24, 2004, 19:46:18
As for complexity of the new sensor systems on the cyclone, i'm positive than as an NCM i can manage to operate them properly regardless of the fact that i did not go trough ASC.  If the training program is first rate then a BAC graduate will not have any problems.  The current BAC is spot on in preparing us for OTU and the next course will be even better as they will incorporate BEW, ESM and ISAR in the coriculum.

I'm not questioning anyone's individual competence nor trying to make a case that officers are better at handling complex equipment. Frankly, I know people in all three MH aircrew MOCs who will simply not be able to make the jump to the new aircraft (you know the type: the ones who are challenged by e-mail).

The case was simply made, and I think it was valid, that the complexity of the tasks associated with the new SENSO seat and the math skills required to successfully accomplish the passive tasks suggested that a screening system like ASC would be a cost effective way of assessing a candidate's aptitude before investing a great deal of costly training in them. This is the logic that supports sending both pilot and nav candidates to ASC.

I am personally of the belief that our expectations for the SENSO seat in the new MH are too high and that it will be extremely difficult and costly to maintain a reasonable proficiency in all the tasks associated with the seat (active and passive acoustics, ISAR, EW, comms, back door work, gunnery, etc). Initial assessments of the SENSO course for the new MH already point to an extremely long course and we haven't really started to look at the real proficiency and currency costs. The unknown is just how much training we will reasonably be able to accomplish in the synthetic environment (sims, PTT, etc).

Anyway, exciting and challenging times ahead!

Sam
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Sam69 on November 24, 2004, 19:49:39
Gotcha, I don't recall much from the EH101 contract, I was 15yrs old in 1993 and I was more interested in girls than anything to do with MH. Was there any talk of going with a 3 man crew similar to the USN Seahawks? Since I've been on scene, I've only heard of the current setup wrt to crews.

Cheers

I don't think that the 3 person option was ever seriously contemplated. I know that it was briefly considered but rejected based on the complexity of the mission set. You have to appreciate that the new MH (S-92 Superhawk) will be capable of a vastly wider mission set than any one Seahawk.  I think it will be a challenge to accomplish the mission set with the 4 person crew and we will need to be inventive and open-minded in how we allocate tasks in the aircraft (e.g. have the non-flying pilot monitor EW and RADAR while the back end is involved in an ASW prosecution).

Sam
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 24, 2004, 20:09:53

The case was simply made, and I think it was valid, that the complexity of the tasks associated with the new SENSO seat and the math skills required to successfully accomplish the passive tasks suggested that a screening system like ASC would be a cost effective way of assessing a candidate's aptitude before investing a great deal of costly training in them. This is the logic that supports sending both pilot and nav candidates to ASC.

I disagree..........AESOps have to complete a math test upon arrival at CFANS and receive 47 hours of math instruction ( covering everithing from trig, log, vectors and phasors, algebric equations......) as part of the course.  Nav students do not have the benefit of this on the BANC course, yet both are supposed to perform the same tasks here at the school.  Math training is not that resource intensive vice sending 16 extra pers a year to ASC when the already have enough on their hands.

I have flown in the CH-146 alot and i would rather that, in the new MH, the non-flying pilot not handle any of the mission gear and concentrates on his job.  With a nav and an aesop in the back, they are more than capable of multi-tasking , even in a high threat environment.  As far as i have been explained, the mission sensor are to be fully intergrated ( I.E. an ESM overlay onto the radar display allowing for increased SA) therfore making the life of the back-enders easier to manage. Becasue we in the back have our eyes glue to the screens, the NFP's job becomes crucial as the FP may have too much to concentrate on to look around the A/C and monitor for technical problems ( as the MH will not have a flight engineer).  Also, by adding EW, radar and other things to the pilot's training, you are increasing the workload on an already lenghty training process.  Let the pilots do their thing, let us do ours in the back.  As long as the man-machine interface is well designed, this will be possible.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Sam69 on November 24, 2004, 22:12:22
Well, we are all entitled to our opinions 081 but I find that I disagree with pretty much everything you say in the post above.

Agree to disagree I guess.

Sam
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 24, 2004, 22:22:28
Fair enough...

I would like to know what your background/experience is ( I.e. are you a nav/pilot/aesop ??).  Would help put your opinion in perspective.  What i mean by that is that it may help me better understand where you are coming from.  You can PM me if thats better for you......your choice.

At any rate, i will examine some of your points further


Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Sam69 on November 24, 2004, 22:48:19
I think I owe you a better explanation.

What I disagree wholeheartedly with is the idea that there are front end and back end jobs and that they are separated by a firewall. In a crew as small as an MH crew with a mission as complex and as busy as that of the MH crew, I think it is critical that we breakdown any such barriers.

For example, I fully expect the TACCO to peer forward with a jaundiced eye once in a while and ask a question if he/she  sees something he doesn't like. Just because a gauge is in the cockpit doesn't mean the TACCO isn't entitled to ask my the MGB pressure is zero. And, during heavy ASW action where the back-end crew is saturated (and trust me, they get saturated), I expect the non-flying pilot to monitor the situation, back-up the TACCO on radios, and offer input into the tactical situation where appropriate.

In the case of the new MH (the Superhawk), I believe that there will simply be too many sensors and associated tasks for the backend to effectively manage them all at once. I advocate the philosophy of primary sensors and tactical nav in the back end, secondary sensors to the non-flying pilot. Granted, there will be times that the NFP is required to focus on assisting the flying pilot. But, in a modern aircraft equipped with George (autopilot) and automated system monitors, the need for the NFP to constantly monitor the FP is greatly reduced. Expecially in the case of a passive acoustic mission where 103% of the SENSO's attention will be on buoy processing, where the TACCO is fully involved in tactics and comms, and the aircraft is flying a loose holding pattern on George, it only makes sense that the NFP take on RADAR and possibly ESM. I don't think either the training bill nor the proficiency bill will be onerous because I am not suggesting that the pilots be trained to perform alll of the sensor functions but rather just the basic functions needed to monitor the system. At the first sign of contact, the sensor of interest would then be passed back to the back end for assessment and further action. (This is similar to how we used to monitor "pingers" - active buoys)

In the bad old days of the introduction of the HELTAS bird (CH-124B), the non-flying pilot was expected to maintain a manual back-up plot on a Mk-6b plotting board. Yikes. What a major PITA that was. But if a numpty in the driver's seat could maintain a decent Mk-6 plot, imagine what a trained professional could contribute to the crew with the aid of modern electronics. We just have to break a few rice bowls to get there. For example, a few years ago there was discussion about putting a display repeater in the front end so pilots could select either a slaved display from the ASN-123 (tactical computer) or a slaved image from the FLIR. Immediately the union reps came out vociferously against providing the pilots any additional information. The most vocal opponents were from within the AESOp trade who felt that pilots were incapable of interpreting the FLIR display and were better off with just a verbal commentary from the sensor expert (never mind the ICS congestion). The TACCOs were a mixed bag - some liked the idea of the pilot (particularly the Crew Commander) being able to see the tactical plot while others felt that it might lead to some CCs micromanaging the tactical situation. Pilots are not blameless either. When it was suggested that the armament control panel be moved to the TACCO's station (Because it it the TACCO who manages the weapons), there was an uproar from the front end over the "loss of control" when the fact remained that the pilot would still have the veto through the "Master Arm" switch and only the pilots can release external stores. These are the kind of attitudes the MH community needs to killl.

Something to think about - and discuss further if you wish.

Sam
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 24, 2004, 23:42:11
I see where you are comming from.

Yes, the front end should also have control over the IR ( be it on sea kings or cyclones) as they are not only a great tactical sensor but also a veru useful navigation aid for the pilots up front.  But i maintain that the FP and NFP have thier jobs ( they drive the bus) and yes we are one crew but all have different roles to play, otherwise we would all be pilots, or ( god help us) navs.  I did not mean to imply that there should be this impenetrable wall between both ends of the A/C but in the same breath, i would be weary of giving the NFP a slave display of the 123 ( or whatever it will be in the 148).  Yes, as a member of the crew, if i notice that them MGB press needle is  on its way to china, i should say something but would you like it if i spent more time being a pilot or be in the back ?  Beleive me, i have seen micromanaging in action !! As for george, as much as it can be a useful tool..it is not infaliable and when the bird is in the dip, i'm not sure that i entirely trust it enough to forgo the NFP's duites.

I guess that while i do beleive that there needs to be more crew interaction (ie NFP doing comms, using IR/EO and some navigation), The backenders are none the less the tactical "specialist" ( lack of a better word) and the pilots drive the bus. With the apropriate displays and sensor intergration, the TACCO and AESOp can overcome task saturation while the burden of SA can be spread amongst the entire crew.

I do not wish to sound like i am protecting my turf ( as i dont yet have a turff !!), please dont get me wrong
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Inch on November 25, 2004, 14:57:47
aesop, it's not about you being a backseat pilot, crew cooperation is what it's all about. Sometimes things can get super busy and we may not notice one of the needles flickering or worse, reading zero, since we're looking at an angle at the instruments.  The TACCO and AESOp can look straight on at the engine instruments and see them much better just by virtue of where they're sitting. The same can be said for circuit breakers, we look up at some and straight down at others, in the shadows it may be difficult for us to see that a breaker is popped, whereas the GIBs can see the white band around the breaker far easier.

What it comes down to, is all of our asses are on the line, not just the drivers. So if someone sees something out of the ordinary then by all means speak up, I don't know of many guys that would call it backseat piloting and it could prevent a disaster.

As for us easing your workload in the back, I'm with Sam on this one.

Just some food for thought.

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 25, 2004, 16:55:58
I understand what you are saying but i am more concerned about mission eqpt than the A/C itself.  CRM and airmanship dictate that we are all to be watching for problems on the A/C and/or things that dont feel right.  That i understand.

I guess i just like my pilots......well....piloting !  Thats what you get paid the big bucks for !

But then again i am an unqualified puke..........
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Sam69 on November 29, 2004, 11:33:53
I guess i just like my pilots......well....piloting !  Thats what you get paid the big bucks for !

Not to beat a dead horse (too long)... but my duties include a lot more than piloting when I fly already. It's just a matter of prioritizing what is important at the moment and never losing sight of the fact that the earth has a Pk of 1.0

Sam
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 29, 2004, 11:40:24
Yes, the ground does have a higher Pk than the missile you are trying to avoid.  Although i think you may have sold me sam, i had quite the education yesterday, LLRN is no fun in winter, i rapidly developed a helmet fire.  The radar picture was not at all like the map due to the lakes being frozen.  I only wish the pilots would have stuck to the SOP calls we were taught and not replace " wings level XXX" with just "steady".................so i ended up getting my ****  slapped for being late with my 3T check !!

Bottom line is i got swamped and let the airplane take the lead and that wasn't good.

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ditch on November 29, 2004, 12:03:00
Bottom line is i got swamped and let the airplane take the lead and that wasn't good.

Welcome to the wonderful world of CF flying - where you are constantly water skiing behind the plane in your valiant efforts to keep up!

Buck up there lad, we have all been there and it will get much easier.

Ask the pilots next time to make standard calls - they won't really mind.  If any of your FO's are Milani or Guenther - give them a shot in the arm from me.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 29, 2004, 12:16:28
WILCO.

Second attempt at LLRN today, weather doesnt look all that good though.  Hopefully i'm not behind the 8-ball this time.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Inch on November 29, 2004, 15:26:08
Bottom line is i got swamped and let the airplane take the lead and that wasn't good.

We've all been there, we used to call it watch-map-mirror in the Harvards. At 4 miles a min, you tend to get behind the aircraft real quick if you're not on the ball and instead of looking ahead of you for what you found on the map, you're looking in the mirror to see if you flew over it already.

As my fixed wing cohort said, it does get easier.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: GOF on March 17, 2006, 00:41:34
When I re-mustered to MOC 081, we were called Observers.  And yes, the only places that knew what we were were on the Maritime Bases.  In my day we only had three aircraft, Argus, Tracker and the Sea Thing.  I was lucky, I was on the Argus in Summerside 1973-75.

I think the trade should remain a re-muster, and definitely not a direct entry.

Just my humble opinion.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: SeaKingTacco on March 17, 2006, 16:27:48
Quote
I think the trade should remain a re-muster, and definitely not a direct entry.

GOF-
what are your reasons for saying that?  the reason that I ask is, that out of an established requirement for a little over 200 AES Ops, we only have about 140 (and dropping).  Well over 75% of our AES Ops are pensionable.  The pool of remusters has gotten so small (demographically speaking) that we don't even get enough files per year to cover the available training slots (24/year).  I'm not sure AES Op can survive another five years as a "remuster only trade".  Thoughts?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 17, 2006, 17:49:48
GOF-
 (and dropping). 

.......FAST !!!

  I'm not sure AES Op can survive another five years as a "remuster only trade".  Thoughts?

It won't.  Recruiting right from the street is seriously being looked at now.  I've been told we are paying close attention to the SAR trade now that they are trying it out.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: SeaKingTacco on March 17, 2006, 20:18:44
Quote
It won't.  Recruiting right from the street is seriously being looked at now.  I've been told we are paying close attention to the SAR trade now that they are trying it out.

Aesop- As an outside observer, standing near the impending site of the trainwreck (12 Wing), I would have to agree with you.  I was just curious what GoF's reasons were- maybe he is seeing something I'm missing...

Cheers!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: RiggerFE on March 17, 2006, 23:15:43
The FE trade is in the same boat, we are also looking at taking applicants straight off the street, running them through Borden for both AVN and AVS training. From there we run them through the FE phase of training. This is still in suggestion/planning stages, but as like any of the other re-muster trades there just isn't the pool to draw from. The FE trade is further handicapped because we can only draw from the AVN trade, where as AESOP & SAR Tech can draw from any trade in the CF.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: GOF on March 18, 2006, 00:51:16
Because of the cost of training, and to help with pay one needs rank, so unless they promote right after wings, there will be some hard feelings among those who have to put some time in before being promoted to Corporal.  But then again, they could do what they did in WW2 with Sgt pilots, promote to Sgt upon Wings.  Because of what is involved in the training, a person should be promoted to Sgt upon Wings, and make the base rank a Sgt.

Also, by making it a re-muster trade, a person re-mustering has to be recommended for re-muster, the board looks at the members past, and in my humble opinion, they will get a better candidate than someone with no military experience entering a very demanding trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ditch on March 18, 2006, 03:07:08
MP's are insta-promoted to Corporal after basic training.  Why not for FE, AESOP, SARTech, etc.  The working rank for all of these trades is Cpl, insta-promotions to anything higher will never "fly".
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 18, 2006, 03:25:41
MP's are insta-promoted to Corporal after basic training.  Why not for FE, AESOP, SARTech, etc.  The working rank for all of these trades is Cpl, insta-promotions to anything higher will never "fly".

My trade is "insta-promoted " to MCpl 12 months after wings.  In the RAF, their sensor operators are promoted to SGT imidiately after wings and they come straight from Civie street.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: SeaKingTacco on March 18, 2006, 11:20:53
The problem with an "insta-promotion" to Sgt is that you are trying to solve a pay problem with rank.  Why not just use spec pay to keep the guy in?

The major problem with the AES Op trade (IMHO) is demographics.  The trade is becoming ancient (age and years of service wise).  Continued reliance on a remusters (who are at already at 8-12 years of service and around 30 before they even set foot in the AES Op classroom) won't solve that problem.  Chasing a smaller and smaller pool of remusters (that is also being chased by JTF 2, FE and SAR Tech)  won't help us.

If the US Navy can recruit 18 year olds and a year later have them functioning as Aircraftsman on Sea Hawks, can we not explore this also?  I can't speak for the LRP guys, but MH is an extremely physically demanding job.  There is alot of physical labour involved in hoisting and potentially rescuing people.  I would like to see some more guys (and gals) in their 20's doing the job.  I'm 38, and I'm starting to feel too old to do some of the work...

Cheers!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 18, 2006, 19:21:54
The problem with an "insta-promotion" to Sgt is that you are trying to solve a pay problem with rank.  Why not just use spec pay to keep the guy in?

The major problem with the AES Op trade (IMHO) is demographics.  The trade is becoming ancient (age and years of service wise).  Continued reliance on a remusters (who are at already at 8-12 years of service and around 30 before they even set foot in the AES Op classroom) won't solve that problem.  Chasing a smaller and smaller pool of remusters (that is also being chased by JTF 2, FE and SAR Tech)  won't help us.

If the US Navy can recruit 18 year olds and a year later have them functioning as Aircraftsman on Sea Hawks, can we not explore this also?  I can't speak for the LRP guys, but MH is an extremely physically demanding job.  There is alot of physical labour involved in hoisting and potentially rescuing people.  I would like to see some more guys (and gals) in their 20's doing the job.  I'm 38, and I'm starting to feel too old to do some of the work...

Cheers!

SKT, i'm sold on the idea of taking raw recruits into the trade.  I dont know about MH but here for us in LRPA its not that physicaly demanding.  More mentaly demanding than anything else.  The direct bonus of taking only remusters is that you usualy get a more mature individual that has been around the military for a while and is less of a discipline/admin problem ( of course there are exceptions) but i'm sure that as a trade we can overcome any issues.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on March 18, 2006, 21:24:48
Thought I'd wade in here with my 2 cents.  Being an AESOp in the MP/LRP community, like aesop081, I have heard lots of the debates for both sides of the issue ( re-muster vs. direct entry ) and there are pros and cons for both.  I personally lean towards keeping it a remuster trade if at all possible.  The fact is this is a senior NCO generating trade and the working rank is Sgt.  I just don't think you can create a quality NCO in 1 to 2 or even 3 to 4 yrs.  Also, people always bring valuable experience from whatever their previous trade was as well.  That being said I think SeaKing Tacco makes some very good points about the demographics of our re-musters as well as the overall "age " of the trade. I agree that we should be targetting more candidates in their 20's and I think we probably could.  I think that it is a trade off between having enough experience and not being  "over the hill".  We should be targetting people coming off their first or second BE ( i.e. 3-6yrs service ) as opposed to people who are pensionable almost as soon as they join the trade ( 15 -20 yrs ).  I came from the army as did aesop081 and I think he'll agree that if the trade could make themselves more known to the army you'd see a lot more applications.  A travelling recruiting drive similar to what JTF 2 does I have heard has been considered and I think would be a great idea.  I know when I remustered most of the guys didn't know what an AESOp was and then didn't believe me that you could become aircrew right out of any trade.  A little more visibility might be a huge help.

I think at the end of the day something has to be done and sure I don't see any reason why you couldn't take a guy off the street and make him a decent AESOp.  I just think you might get a little more quality control ( i.e. previous performance ) and more well rounded AESOp by keeping it remuster.  Besides that's they way I had to do it! so.... ;D
.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 18, 2006, 21:35:34
  I came from the army as did aesop081 and I think he'll agree that if the trade could make themselves more known to the army you'd see a lot more applications.  A travelling recruiting drive similar to what JTF 2 does I have heard has been considered and I think would be a great idea.  I know when I remustered most of the guys didn't know what an AESOp was and then didn't believe me that you could become aircrew right out of any trade.  A little more visibility might be a huge help.

My freind, nice to see you.  I thought i was going to have to fight the navigator union all on my own  ;D

From what i hear this travelling roadshow is underway.  I've been told its happening in Shilo sometime in the next few weeks.  I like your idea of targeting guys earlier in their careers for remuster to AESOp.  Like you said, if they advertised a little bit more, you would get alot of people in the BPSO's office.  I remember when i was at CFANS, the course after ours had a guy on it who already had 20 years in.  Now no offence to this guy, but he should have never been transfered.  I think that FRP didnt do us any favours either.   SKT does make a valid point when  he says it works for the USN, why would it not work for us ?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on March 18, 2006, 22:20:11
Hey, buddy.  Yeah, I was the second youngest in terms of age and years of service on my course at 29 and 9 years in.  The average was around 13 or 14 years service and about age 33 or 34 . But then again as an AESOp aren't we supposed to be old and crusty?

That's good to hear that they are underway with a recruiting drive.  I think once e few grunts hear about the trade and that we don't have to sleep in holes  ;D  we may see the applications go up.  What's not to love?  We'll just tell everybody they ALL can go to Comox.  Gotta lie a little or else it wouldn't be real recruiting would it?

As far as the USN, I don't know that much about them and how close they are to us but hey, yeah, if it works for them and for the RAF then why not for us.  I personally still lean toward remuster.  I think with a little more advertising we could come up with 15-20 high quality candidates a year.  But then again I don't know much beyond what I see at the annual CM briefing so I could be talking out of my a**.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 18, 2006, 22:24:07
But then again as an AESOp aren't we supposed to be old and crusty?

I got that part of my upgrade covered !!

Quote

That's good to hear that they are underway with a recruiting drive.  I think once e few grunts hear about the trade and that we don't have to sleep in holes  ;D  we may see the applications go up.  What's not to love?  We'll just tell everybody they ALL can go to Comox.  Gotta lie a little or else it wouldn't be real recruiting would it?

You're just jealous......admit it !!
Quote
As far as the USN, I don't know that much about them and how close they are to us but hey, yeah, if it works for them and for the RAF then why not for us.  I personally still lean toward remuster.  I think with a little more advertising we could come up with 15-20 high quality candidates a year.  But then again I don't know much beyond what I see at the annual CM briefing so I could be talking out of my a**.

At least you got a CM breif this year.........i got sent away on a JTFEX in san diego where the gang of four were here !!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on March 18, 2006, 22:24:25
.  I think with a little more advertising we could come up with 15-20 high quality candidates a year. 

Not to suggest that the candidates we are getting now are low quality after all I was one a couple yrs ago so I'd be slamming myself..... and you too. ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on March 18, 2006, 22:26:00

You're just jealous......admit it !!

Just jealous of your ablities and good looks!.......NOT ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 18, 2006, 22:38:19
Just jealous of your ablities and good looks!.......NOT ;D

Like i said...jealous !

Maybe we should do something like the SAR techs are doing.  Hire 2 civies to become aesops and see how it goes ?  Call it a "buy and try"
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: GOF on March 20, 2006, 20:20:00
Okay, I'm convinced, a lot of good arguments...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on March 23, 2006, 23:47:54
The travelling roadshow does seem to be on.  It is in Esquimalt on Wed 29 Mar.  Before I saw the msg on it, I hadn't know about the trade at all, but since then have learned lots.

I guess I fall into the old and crusty crowd with 14+ years in and 33 years old.  But I like the idea of it being a re-muster trade for the fact that everyone starting out has played the game, knows the basic rules and is there (mostly) because they honestly want to be, not because they are a kid fresh out of high school and it sounds "cool".
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on March 25, 2006, 10:43:28
The travelling roadshow does seem to be on.  It is in Esquimalt on Wed 29 Mar.  Before I saw the msg on it, I hadn't know about the trade at all, but since then have learned lots.

I guess I fall into the old and crusty crowd with 14+ years in and 33 years old.  But I like the idea of it being a re-muster trade for the fact that everyone starting out has played the game, knows the basic rules and is there (mostly) because they honestly want to be, not because they are a kid fresh out of high school and it sounds "cool".

Good to hear it's happening.  If you go to it, leave a post and let us know how it went. 

I agree with you about the benifits of it being remuster.  The problem is there just aren't enough applicants.  I'd be interested to hear what the attendance is like and what people's impressions were.

Best of luck to you if you decide you think it is something you want to do.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on March 29, 2006, 21:12:06
I went to the "roadshow" today.  Attendance wasn't too bad I guess, about 10 of us there, mostly LS.  One walked out shortly after it started, and I heard a few others talking saying that they were actually applying for SAR Tech, but it was suggested to them to put AESOP down as a second choice.

It was given by a couple AESOPs from Pat Bay, as well as one from the Recruiting Centre.  Good basic background information was given.  All specific info was about the Sea Kings though, so it would have been nice to have someone with Aurora experience too.

All in all, I learned a bit more to add to what I've got, and am definitely still interested.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on March 31, 2006, 16:21:53


I went to the "roadshow" today.  Attendance wasn't too bad I guess, about 10 of us there, mostly LS.  One walked out shortly after it started, and I heard a few others talking saying that they were actually applying for SAR Tech, but it was suggested to them to put AESOP down as a second choice.

It was given by a couple AESOPs from Pat Bay, as well as one from the Recruiting Centre.  Good basic background information was given.  All specific info was about the Sea Kings though, so it would have been nice to have someone with Aurora experience too.

All in all, I learned a bit more to add to what I've got, and am definitely still interested.

Glad to hear you got something out of it. 10 doesn't sound like a huge turn out.  Just curious, how was it advertised?
  It would be better I am sure if it was a little more well rounded with info on Aurora, different ground jobs, instructional duties, etc. in addition to Sea King stuff.  It is just a new thing and perhaps it will expand a little bit in the future.
If you have any burning questions about life on an Aurora crew feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 31, 2006, 16:36:14

Glad to hear you got something out of it. 10 doesn't sound like a huge turn out.  Just curious, how was it advertised?
  It would be better I am sure if it was a little more well rounded with info on Aurora, different ground jobs, instructional duties, etc. in addition to Sea King stuff.  It is just a new thing and perhaps it will expand a little bit in the future.
If you have any burning questions about life on an Aurora crew feel free to PM me.


Then she can get a ZX perspective...she's been getting the QQ perspective for some time....hahaha
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on March 31, 2006, 17:59:11
Then she can get a ZX perspective...she's been getting the QQ perspective for some time....hahaha

On second thought a ZX perspective might send people running instead of attracting them. Just kidding Greenwood is pretty good!  You know you miss it!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 31, 2006, 18:10:15
On second thought a ZX perspective might send people running instead of attracting them. Just kidding Greenwood is pretty good!  You know you miss it!

I'll be there to be reminded of how much i hate it last week of april for OMS
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on March 31, 2006, 18:19:31
It was advertised by message to the fleet, and then put on the local DIN splash screen as well a week beforehand.  As well, some of the people there seemed to be there just through word of mouth.

Yes, it would have been interesting to have both sides of the story.  From my understanding, an AESOP from Comox was invited, but had previous committments, and besides didn't remember their way to Victoria lol.

I have just returned from putting my application in at the recruiting centre.  They are a bit stuck right now, as they are unsure how to proceed with it.  Supposedly a reservist has never applied for a transfer to reg force AESOP.  I am definitely going to keep on top of that though.

If you have any burning questions about life on an Aurora crew feel free to PM me.

Thank you for the offer.  I am learning more each day, and as something comes up, I will drop a line.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on July 03, 2006, 22:04:22
I just started the ball rolling on my OT to 00019, hopefully things will go quickly and smoothly.    I just hope I didn't start this too late for this years boards
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on July 03, 2006, 22:13:46
I just started the ball rolling on my OT to 00019, hopefully things will go quickly and smoothly.    I just hope I didn't start this too late for this years boards

board usualy sits in october.......make sure you stay on the ball for your CFAT, interview and medical
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: glenndon on July 03, 2006, 22:18:35
I have yet to even see the msg yet for this year.  Anyone else seen it yet?? 

Glenn
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on July 03, 2006, 22:20:40
I have yet to even see the msg yet for this year.  Anyone else seen it yet?? 

Glenn

the trade is open year-round as it is a COTP trade...doent matter when you apply, the trade is always open.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Journeyman on July 03, 2006, 22:28:56
....they were actually applying for SAR Tech, but it was suggested to them to put AESOP down as a second choice.

 ??? Two clearly related trades. They both wear flying suits, and......and, well...... they fly...mostly  ::)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on July 03, 2006, 22:29:46
the trade is open year-round as it is a COTP trade...doent matter when you apply, the trade is always open.

Unless you're a reservist trying to apply for it and since you have to go through CFRC, it shows there being zero openings.  But I am working on that, just frustrated is all.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on July 03, 2006, 22:33:05
Unless you're a reservist trying to apply for it and since you have to go through CFRC, it shows there being zero openings.  But I am working on that, just frustrated is all.

Yeah well you're....special......
You know and understand full well why its says zero at the CFRC for openings.

Again, If you are REGULAR force, you can apply at ANY time
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on July 03, 2006, 22:49:05
Yeah well you're....special......
You know and understand full well why its says zero at the CFRC for openings.

I know I'm special.  :D  Wait, you mean the other kind of special don't you....LOL

Yes, I understand why it shows that at CFRC, but it's still really frustrating especially when they simply point out other trades that you qualify for.  The whole CT process was supposed to be simplified for reserves.  Unfortunately, that didn't take into account COTP.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on July 04, 2006, 00:53:53
Hey as long as they stall you long enough so that you aren't in competition with me this year!   ;D



Truthfully I am just kidding, and I hope you get that **** squared off so your files will be at the board
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hiv on July 04, 2006, 04:42:21
Get your damn medicals done, too!
You could lose your spot on course if you don't have a valid aircrew medcat.

See you cats in the peg :D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on July 04, 2006, 18:49:11
Do I need my aircrew medcat to be accepted?   Or can I be in the process of getting that done, and still be accepted.


Will it look better on my file if I get my aircrew medcat done so that its recorded on my file at the board?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on July 04, 2006, 18:52:27
I had my medical done before i got accepted. Its better that way but i know a few individuals who had been accepted first.  Your acceptance will be conditional on passing your medical..Consult with the BPSO for the most accurate info.

Sub.guy,

i got your email and will try to sort something out with you for a famil flight as soon as i can.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on July 04, 2006, 19:48:56
Thanks, I will aim to get my medical done soonest, I am aware that my files end up going to Toronto for the thumbs up/thumbs down, and that it takes almost 3 months?  If I can get in soon it may be reflected on my file as having it done.

Thanks Aesop081
 I appreciate everything you are doing.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on July 04, 2006, 20:15:02

Thanks Aesop081
 I appreciate everything you are doing.

No problem.  Good luck.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on July 05, 2006, 18:04:04
Got an appointment for my initial air crew medial on the 14th Jul, thats pretty sweet.  There would be nothing worse than getting accepted, ditching my navy uniform/rank, go blue, then get sent back as a LS because I failed my air med....Not cool at all


Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on July 05, 2006, 23:38:16
There is one guy in the lab that applied for AESOP (nope its not me..I applied for the orange flight suit instead  ;)). Maybe you guys will see him by the end of this year or next year.
Good luck to you guys with that remuster!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on July 05, 2006, 23:39:22
There is one guy in the lab that applied for AESOP (nope its not me..I applied for the orange flight suit instead  ;)). Maybe you guys will see him by the end of this year or next year.
Good luck to you guys with that remuster!

Send him to me upstairs if he wants info or come flying
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hiv on July 08, 2006, 13:12:15
What's even less cool is the form you sign when you accept your OT offer stating that if you are unable to complete the AESOp training they have the option to release you from the military.

Got an appointment for my initial air crew medial on the 14th Jul, thats pretty sweet.  There would be nothing worse than getting accepted, ditching my navy uniform/rank, go blue, then get sent back as a LS because I failed my air med....Not cool at all
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on July 08, 2006, 13:16:54
What's even less cool is the form you sign when you accept your OT offer stating that if you are unable to complete the AESOp training they have the option to release you from the military.


i've seen 8 guys fail the basic aesop course in the last 4 courses.....most have chosen to go back to their old trades or remustered to some other MOC.  If you dont like the conditions under wich you are offered a new trade , don't sign.  Simple as that
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on July 08, 2006, 13:22:24
What's even less cool is the form you sign when you accept your OT offer stating that if you are unable to complete the AESOp training they have the option to release you from the military.


Maybe they should do that with more trades.  If someone thought they could get punted so easily, they'd either think twice about the trade, or definitely put more effort into the coursing.  I haven't gotten an offer yet, but I know if/when I do, and sign that form, that is some heavy motivation for me to kick ***.  Too bad it isn't the same for others.  I understand that AESOp courses are intensive, but with few courses and few people on them, having students RTU'd while there are others waiting and more then eager to push themselves through, I shake my head sometimes.  I know I've been briefed and prepped by current AESOp's as to what to expect and what to prestudy for, others should too.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on July 08, 2006, 15:40:37
aesop081,
Will do.
cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on July 08, 2006, 17:52:25
I have a copy of the old pip, is there anything else out there that I should be looking at, in ref to prestudy? 

I am also looking at this as a one way street, if I get my offer to go, there is no looking back, balls to the wall.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on July 09, 2006, 21:31:24
well, i've been lurking in the shadows reading these boards for a couple years now as a guest, and felt today was time to become a member and start asking questions. no better a place to do it as this particular one with the aesop topic fresh on people's minds.  i am also interested in an ot over to the trade.  i too went to an ot brief in march, this one in halifax, and have a good number of questions and concerns as i move into the process.  i feel i'm in a bit of a tight spot right now as to when and if i can get started but if someone has suggestions i'm open to everything...as many perspectives as possible.  i've been doing as much research into this as possible and can't get an answer to this one.  i'm a ql4 sonar op, and, the first thing is, unfortunately, i can't officially start the process til next january, since my 48 months reg force doesn't come til next may.  well, the bpso told me one thing at the briefing and another thing at their office--in so many words "don't bother us til then".  does anyone know if there is a way to get paperwork initiated now and then do any kind of followup afterwards?  it doesn't seem as though i can even walk in there and ask them, and my people on the ship don't seem to be open to helping me if i'm moving on.  i'm to be deployed from mid august til mid december anyway, so could the time be used to my advantage as there is a demand for potentials in the cotp?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on July 09, 2006, 21:37:57
well, i've been lurking in the shadows reading these boards for a couple years now as a guest, and felt today was time to become a member and start asking questions. no better a place to do it as this particular one with the aesop topic fresh on people's minds.  i am also interested in an ot over to the trade.  i too went to an ot brief in march, this one in halifax, and have a good number of questions and concerns as i move into the process.  i feel i'm in a bit of a tight spot right now as to when and if i can get started but if someone has suggestions i'm open to everything...as many perspectives as possible.  i've been doing as much research into this as possible and can't get an answer to this one.  i'm a ql4 sonar op, and, the first thing is, unfortunately, i can't officially start the process til next january, since my 48 months reg force doesn't come til next may.  well, the bpso told me one thing at the briefing and another thing at their office--in so many words "don't bother us til then".  does anyone know if there is a way to get paperwork initiated now and then do any kind of followup afterwards?  it doesn't seem as though i can even walk in there and ask them, and my people on the ship don't seem to be open to helping me if i'm moving on.  i'm to be deployed from mid august til mid december anyway, so could the time be used to my advantage as there is a demand for potentials in the cotp?

You cant apply until you meet all the requirements.  Unless those requirements have changed they  are CPL/LS. QL5A qualified with 48 months service.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on July 09, 2006, 21:49:00
You cant apply until you meet all the requirements.  Unless those requirements have changed they  are CPL/LS. QL5A qualified with 48 months service.

From my recent dealings with it, no the requirements haven't changed.  Therefore trigger, there is nothing officially that you can do before that time.  However, there is always prep that you can do for your transfer.  Start working on your math and vocabulary for your CFAT, get into a good fitness regime for your PT test, and search the boards here for all of the background information that you can get on the trade itself, so that you are prepared for your BPSO interview.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on July 09, 2006, 22:47:08
thanks for the info.  actually right from the brief and looking at a pamphlet they gave out there is no need for QL5 in current trade, and apply in calendar year the 48 months comes in.  however, with me being in a hard sea trade and a QL5 course right around the corner, i face a dillema risking being held in the trade for 2 additional years before i could even start this ball rolling.  has anyone here had any experience with that?  were you able to bypass the 2 years?  or, would it be sensible to give up that course position if i was tentatively moving on?  mind you, i know that any and all knowledge from that course would be beneficial in the long run, just excited about the possibility and don't want to miss that boat right now, or soon. ;D 

pt test was just nailed last week but where would i obtain useful math/vocabulary prep stuff?  i know it's similar to the one when i got in and you couldn't really prepare for that so what do you suggest? 

aesops on ship are quite helpful in sharing info, but not everything, that was why i came on here.  i want to know as much as i can for said interview.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on July 10, 2006, 01:32:04
"These MOCs are open to members who are a minimum of QL4 qualified and have a minimum of 48 months continuous service in the Regular Force by 31 Dec of the year in which the application is made.  Members who applied under the YTEP programme may count this time towards continuous service; however, previous full time paid service, Reserve service or Cadet service is not counted towards continuous service. "   <---- Taken from BPSO CFB Esquimalt webpage    I am sure you have, but if not have a read of CFAO 11-12


I have a guy working for me here, who has submitted a waiver, perhaps that could get you past your 2 year thing

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on July 10, 2006, 07:42:25


I have a guy working for me here, who has submitted a waiver, perhaps that could get you past your 2 year thing


where did he get this waiver?  what was his career manager's involvement in this and was he reluctant at all to give it to him?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: niceasdrhuxtable on July 11, 2006, 01:06:37
You cant apply until you meet all the requirements.  Unless those requirements have changed they  are CPL/LS. QL5A qualified with 48 months service.

You don't need your QL5 qualification to apply. I did so successfully without mine. Just 48 months of continuous service falling within the calendar year you are applying in (ie. if your 4 year date is August 2007 you could apply in January 2007).
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on July 11, 2006, 01:08:29
You don't need your QL5 qualification to apply.

i did say "unless things have changed".........i remustered to the trade 2 years ago and the QL5A was a requirement.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on July 11, 2006, 01:25:37
Personally I would go for the trade after my QL5 Course, if in the event you fail, you probably (IMHO) have a better chance of going back to your old trade.    But then again that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on July 11, 2006, 02:12:55
You don't need your QL5 qualification to apply. I did so successfully without mine. Just 48 months of continuous service falling within the calendar year you are applying in (ie. if your 4 year date is August 2007 you could apply in January 2007).

You are going to play nicer this time around I hope. Your leash is very short....
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ditch on July 11, 2006, 03:06:15
Not all trades even have a 5A - unless you are referring to the PLQ.  So what does that mean for those trades?  Do they need to be 6A qualified?  Not too many units will give someone their Sergeant's course only to have them OT right after it...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on July 11, 2006, 16:57:43
Ref: CFAO 11-12 Occupation Transfer of Non-Commissioned Members - Regular Force

Quote
ANNEX B -- CONTINUING OCCUPATION TRANSFER PROGRAMGENERAL
1.     This program consists of MOCs open for voluntary OT on a continuing
basis.  Eligible members may apply using the form at Annex A.
PREREQUISITES
2.     In addition to the general provisions listed at paragraph 15 (see below for this para) of this
order, and unless otherwise specified in the table to this annex,
applicants must have a minimum of 48 months continuous service by 31
December of the year in which application is made.  Exceptions are members
whose MOC is CRMN 011, ARTYMN FD 021, ARTYMN AD 022, INFMN 031, FD ENGR
041, and FEE OP 042, who may apply for OT under this program in accordance
with Annex C.
AIR CREW MEDICAL EXAMINATION
3.     In addition to the provisions of paragraph 17, the following
procedures apply for transfer to Flight Engineer (091), Airborne Electronic
Sensor Operator (081), and Search and Rescue Technician (131):
     a.   Applications will be screened by selection boards at NDHQ.
          Unsuccessful applicants will be notified immediately.  When an
          applicant is selected for further processing, the parent unit
          will be directed by NDHQ/DPCOR to initiate an air crew medical
          examination to be conducted by a flight surgeon/medical officer
          using form CF 2033, Record of Medical Examination.  This form is
          to be completed in duplicate and meet the requirements of Annex A
          to 34-44 for air crew medical examination.

     b.   The parent unit will then forward the applicant's CF 2034 Medical
          Document Envelope with the CF 2033 to Command Surgeon Air
          Command, or Command Surgeon Canadian Forces Europe, as
          appropriate.  Each member's medical documents shall be screened
          by the applicable Command Surgeon and forwarded to the Defence
          and Civil Institute of Environmental Medicine/Central Medical
          Board (DCIEM/CMB), who may request that the member report to
          Toronto if doubt exists regarding the member's suitability.
          Following this review and any investigation considered necessary
          by DCIEM/CMB, successful applicants will be awarded the air
          factor category corresponding to the new MOC and all documents
          shall be forwarded to Surgeon General/Director Medical Treatment
          Services (DMTS).

     c.   DMTS shall approve the air factor category awarded and return the
          member's medical documents to the parent unit.  The parent unit
          shall notify NDHQ/DPCOR of the medical suitability of each
          applicant.

     d.   On completion of the procedures in subparagraphs b and c,
          successful applicants will be advised and scheduled for required
          training as vacancies arise or at such time as specified by
          NDHQ/DPCOR.  If training cannot be undertaken immediately,
          applicants will have their names placed on an administrative
          holding roster and they will be assigned vacancies as they occur,
          subject to confirmation of their medical suitability if period
          elapsed since last medical examination exceeds 12 months.

4.     Applicants must also meet the special requirements set out in the
table to this Annex in respect of the MOCs for which they apply.
MOCs OPEN TO OT
_______________________________________________________________________________

     1.    Transfers open to all MOCs:
_______________________________________________________________________________

           MOC                           Special Requirements
           (a)                                    (b)
_______________________________________________________________________________

     081 Airborne                       Medical procedures described at paragraph 3
     Electronic Sensor                  of this annex apply.  Other than in
     Operator                           exceptional circumstances, a member qualified as an AES Op will not be released or
                                        transferred to another MOC within 2 years after completion of operational training.

Quote
15.    Members applying for transfer under any of the voluntary OT programs
must meet the following prerequisites:
     a.   minimum time prerequisites applicable to the OT program being
          considered, excluding LWOP (Leave Without Pay) granted on
          enrolment;

     b.   MOC selection standards, detailed in the Canadian Forces Manual
          of NCM Occupation Structure (A-PD-123);

     c.   language aptitude and proficiency standards;

     d.   MOC medical standards specified in A-MD-154-000/FP-000;

     e.   QL 4 qualification.

     f.   Only Ptes and Cpls and those MCpls and above who are prepared to
          relinquish their appointment or rank may apply for voluntary OT.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: niceasdrhuxtable on July 11, 2006, 17:44:23
My trade didn't have a QL4 so I guess that criteria wasn't applied.

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on August 04, 2006, 00:58:51
Just re-read the entire thread.... Did they have a travelling road show this year?   If so that would be good for the Aesop trade, but crappy for me who has his application in!!!! 


But I am a firm believer in the best person for the job.... More applicants means a bigger pool of talent to pick from
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: glenndon on September 05, 2006, 17:25:05
Surprised this hasn't been posted yet. . .

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/MapleLeaf/vol_9/vol9_29/929_10.pdf
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/MapleLeaf/vol_9/vol9_29/929_11.pdf


Those are the articles from the Maple Leaf on the trade.


Glenn
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on September 05, 2006, 22:17:34
Thanks for the article Glenn, I haven't seen the Maple Leaf for awhile, so I missed reading that.

I was sent this link by a friend and it only makes me want to fly more.  ;D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lzAP7WK4iG8
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on September 15, 2006, 14:11:45
Thats at good link, but this one really pumps me up


http://youtube.com/watch?v=4r6_mVLkThE

All is complete on the process and now I just sit and wait, with glenn.............. waiting sucks.............
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on September 15, 2006, 16:27:03
speed's good....reset flaps and trim........flaps and trim are reset...engineer set 3500 shp.......
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: mr peabody on September 15, 2006, 17:30:37

   "what's that...?  they didn't give us any peanut butter..?   divert to rinse rack, shut down 1 and 2 and deploy ops 5 for hot resupply...  this is pathfinder 20...... out."
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: glenndon on September 15, 2006, 18:03:10
All is complete on the process and now I just sit and wait, with glenn.............. waiting sucks.............

Only another three and a half months to wait Sub_Guy before offers start going out . . .  ???



Glenn
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on September 15, 2006, 18:15:48
Well the NFL season just started so that will make time seem to go faster, not to mention me being a shift worker, time will fly.....
I only have to endure 2 day shifts every 8 days...... Midnights are good, day shifts suck..............



Still way too much time to sit here and wonder how I did on my interview

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: niceasdrhuxtable on September 15, 2006, 18:36:04
I wouldn't sweat too much over the PSO interviews. My understanding is they aren't deal breakers for the OT intake boards.

Good luck to you all.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on September 15, 2006, 19:34:48
I wouldn't sweat too much over the PSO interviews. My understanding is they aren't deal breakers for the OT intake boards.

"Understanding"??  Is this from your own personal experience as a PSO or a member of the boards?  Or just something that you have "heard"??  And if it is from experience, I strongly suggest you fill out your profile so that your statements might be appreciated and accepted more.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: niceasdrhuxtable on September 15, 2006, 20:57:51
Wow, let's all calm down. This is from conversations with an AESOp MWO who has sat on the OT intake board several times. Anyway, at the end of the day, conjecture is conjecture.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on September 29, 2006, 18:26:09
Wish they had a better system (maybe they do now) than the PSO interviews.  One of the guys of my former trade (nciop) had an interview with the same PSO that I did and walked out with a very good recomendation from the PSO.  The sad thing was that he knew nothing of the AESop trade. Wan't that good of an NCIOP either, lol.  He didnt get selected mind you, but I was rather dismayed how little he knew about anything, but stil got a very good recomendation. I was on the First BAC in Winterpeg, now a dumb civy in the USA.  Sure miss the job.  Best job going hands down. Cheers Scott
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on September 29, 2006, 18:41:59
True, but the PSO interview isn't the only thing that is contributes to the score.  There are many factors involved, the interview is a small part of the score.  Self assessment, Supervisors Assessment, CO's recommendation, CFAT scores, educational background, and the interview are all combined to give you a score out of 90.  So if you are a bag of hammers it should be reflected somewhere along the way....

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: EX_RCAC_011 on September 29, 2006, 19:58:15
True, but the PSO interview isn't the only thing that is contributes to the score.  There are many factors involved, the interview is a small part of the score.  Self assessment, Supervisors Assessment, CO's recommendation, CFAT scores, educational background, and the interview are all combined to give you a score out of 90.  So if you are a bag of hammers it should be reflected somewhere along the way....



I'm not OTing to ASEOP but I'll drop my view on the OT in general.I'm OTing to Int op under COTP and was totally surprised that although all my courses I have done in the army I've topped or came close to it didn't really matter as much as what I did when I was 17 years old on math.I personally don't think it holds any merit to judge a person on his past education if he has performed well in the military.They BPSO told me it was used to see my ability to learn!7 years ago! I think it was 4 points out of a possible 20 I got for an overall 70 something average(young and dumb).My interview and supervisors recommendations were outstanding along with my pers file,but I'm wondering if I may now have to go do high school upgrades just to be a little more competitive.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: glenndon on October 10, 2006, 16:05:13
Well the deadline for applications to be in Borden was Oct 6th.  Any other applicants out there in the waiting stage with me and Sub_Guy???

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on November 08, 2006, 18:04:24
So can anyone out there tell me if there are still AESop positions in Germany?  I could have swore I located those billets on the CM webpage.  If so, what kind of jobs do they do over there?  Would this job be hard to get? (I think they are sgt positions, so naturally getting promoted is the first challenge)..

I did notice a WO position in Yellowknife (oddly enough he shares the same last name as myself), again another position that has my attention as living up there has always been something I wanted to do......(yeah I am retarded).
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 08, 2006, 18:07:44
So can anyone out there tell me if there are still AESop positions in Germany?  I could have swore I located those billets on the CM webpage.  If so, what kind of jobs do they do over there?  Would this job be hard to get? (I think they are sgt positions, so naturally getting promoted is the first challenge)..

I did notice a WO position in Yellowknife (oddly enough he shares the same last name as myself), again another position that has my attention as living up there has always been something I wanted to do......(yeah I am retarded).

We have 2 positions for Sgts......they are ground jobs as programer/analyst for the E-3 weapon system.  Those jobs are hard to get as extensive computer experience is a requirement.  We just saw the job terms of reference and the 2 individulas in those positions right now are tough to replace.  Even once posted there, the training is said to be 12 months long.  Those are very specialized positions.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on November 19, 2006, 14:39:50
Perhaps my I.T. training/maintaining/troubleshooting acquired as a 00299 will help.......  anyway I see the "lounge" has been hacked, by the Saudi Coder...

I have gained another check in the box by being rewarded with my Air Factor...   I continue to wait, and wait some more for an offer, I haven't heard much from potential applicants, just the admiral once and a while, he keeps me informed!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 19, 2006, 14:45:07
Perhaps my I.T. training/maintaining/troubleshooting acquired as a 00299 will help.......  anyway I see the "lounge" has been hacked, by the Saudi Coder...

I have gained another check in the box by being rewarded with my Air Factor...   I continue to wait, and wait some more for an offer, I haven't heard much from potential applicants, just the admiral once and a while, he keeps me informed!


I havent forgotten about you sub_guy, i just have been deployed.....alot lately.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: glenndon on November 19, 2006, 14:48:01
Too bad about the lounge!!   :'(

Time is ticking. . .  Offers will come out eventually!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on November 19, 2006, 22:04:09
Aesoplounge is back up and running!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: white-rabbit on November 22, 2006, 16:44:16
 ;DJust wanted to put my 2 cents in.
I am currently waiting to go on my BAC in Apr 07, I will be doing my BSERE,BEW, SEA SURV & AMT before I go to the Peg.
I spent way too much time in the Sr. service for my liking, (10 yrs subs (O boats) and 5 yrs CPF's).
Looking forward to as my WO calls it "Best job in the Navy, worst job in the Air Force"

To all Army guys, how did you hear about AESop? The reason I ask is in the Navy we see them all the time and get to see them doing their jobs, whereas Army guys don't.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on November 23, 2006, 13:59:55
can someone clarify something for me?  just wondering what the sec cl is for the trade.  all of a sudden hearing some conflicting info as i go through the process of my ot...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on November 23, 2006, 14:19:10
can someone clarify something for me?  just wondering what the sec cl is for the trade.  all of a sudden hearing some conflicting info as i go through the process of my ot...

Level III, Top Secret
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 23, 2006, 18:17:49
Level III, Top Secret

........however:

You must have your level III process started beofre you start training in Winnipeg.  You must have at least level II before you are accepted for OT in order to attend the Basic EW course.  After that, as long as your level III is processing, you are OK.  I have been flying operationaly for over a year now and been in the trade since 2004 and my level III is still "processing" !!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on January 09, 2007, 20:31:13
Beginning of the new year.  If I had stayed with my original plan, I'd be sitting on pins and needles right now.  So thought I would check in and see how some of you are doing.  Any offers on the street yet?  Any "sorry try again next year" letters?  I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.  :D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 10, 2007, 11:54:22
Nothing yet!   I am going over some stuff to better prepare myself if I am lucky enough to get picked.  I have spoken with a few applicants and time isn't going by fast enough for us.....
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 10, 2007, 18:19:59
Nothing yet!   I am going over some stuff to better prepare myself if I am lucky enough to get picked.  I have spoken with a few applicants and time isn't going by fast enough for us.....

Offers should be out soon......i got mine in late Jan IIRC
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 10, 2007, 19:46:01
   Do you Aesops get spec pay as well as flight crew allowance?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 10, 2007, 19:53:13
   Do you Aesops get spec pay as well as flight crew allowance?

Yes...........our trade is in the specialist 1 pay group

and it is "aircrew" allowance
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 10, 2007, 19:58:26
 ..ahh right on....thanks MCpl.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 10, 2007, 20:01:00
..ahh right on....thanks MCpl.

No problems...anything else...fire away


No ranks here BTW
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hoist-monkey on January 15, 2007, 01:01:04
 ;D ;D ;D
I just found out from boss back at 443 that 2 of us from 443 have our BAC loading message waiting for us.
I am so happy, I was so excited it was almost as good as news as when my son was born.

So to all you guys with applications in and waiting for your messages, don't despair there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and its called BAC.

I have met most of the guys that will be on my BAC in April, we are all in Winnipeg and just finished AMT, and start BEW Monday morning, and then next week is BSERE.
So we have gotten to know each other pretty well, they are a great bunch of guys, so it should be a great course.

I can't wait.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 15, 2007, 08:19:59
Enjoy BEW, the manual for that course is like 2 inches thick!!  Best of luck
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on January 15, 2007, 09:56:02
Yeah, and enjoy the BSERE.  It's really just a camping trip, but hasn't it been like -40ish degrees out there lately?  Enjoy your bunny, and eat it all at once.  Don't do what I did and save some for later because that frozen bunny carcass is never as enjoyable as when you have freshly roasted it.   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 17, 2007, 17:04:02
So as many have you out there in the trade already know being patient and waiting for word on your application is thrilling!

Are there any applicants out there who have received an offer yet?

I have been walking around the neighborhood killing cats to ensure I am desensitized in the event I get selected. (I want to be ready for that bunny)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hoist-monkey on January 17, 2007, 17:18:06
I am currently on my BEW and is it ever a lot of information in such a short period of time.
Some of it is interesting, but serious information overload.
I would rather be on my BSERE than doing this right now.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on January 18, 2007, 19:50:31
One guy I work with got is message last Friday.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 18, 2007, 20:49:26
Yeah it went out on the 12th, lucky bunch of dudes....


Good luck, I guess if I get my offer the earliest I will be sitting in CYWG is Oct.... Still not much in the word of offers...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hoist-monkey on January 19, 2007, 08:59:31
To Sub guy
Not to dash your hopes, but I wouldn't count on getting on the October 07 course.
Sometimes people get lucky and get on a course quickly but don't count on it.
There are at least 3 people I know who are already pencilled in for that course and that could change.

The only way you will ever know you are going on your BAC is when you see your name on  a message.

We just had it happen to a guy here in Winnipeg, who was told he was on course in April, but when the message
was cut his name wasn't there.

Good luck  ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 19, 2007, 09:03:57
Hopefully you hear one way or the other soon.  When I was on BAC (2002) heard the instructors mention they had very few applicants just prior to the board.  I'm suprised they don't get flooded with applicants (they used to at one time) as it is probably one of the best NCM occupations in the Forces. I sure miss the job.  This going to school stuff sucks, lol  Best of luck.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 20, 2007, 13:26:14
   Hey guys......how challenging academically is the schooling portion of the training?   Is it basic high school stuff....or more college oriented?  Alot of math?  Physics?  Is there hours of homework in the evening?   Just curious  :D
 Cheers
C.O.D.
 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 20, 2007, 13:56:42
They instruct you on what yopu have to know for math. As i recall its more Algebra. I recall them stating it was High school, 1st yr college level.   Studying, oh yes!!!  Ur not spoon fed as one sometimes can be on some military courses. There are no good reviews (where the reviews are the exam!!)   The course is challenging, but not impossible of course. One just has to study.  And amazingly stil enough time to enjoy the Molson!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hoist-monkey on January 20, 2007, 14:04:21
I have a couple friends on their BAC right now and the course material is pretty intense.
Meteorology, Navigation, Aircraft systems (safety), Trainer time etc etc.
Most of the guys on the course average about 3-4 hours study/homework every night.
The best way to get through this course is to work as a team, but you also need to find a way to unwind
like going to the gym or whatever.

I am already brushing up on my math, and studying habits.

The best advice I have been given is to come prepared but don't assume you know anything, or as stated by somebody
else on this forum, the instructors aren't here to spoon feed you, but that doesn't mean they won't help you.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 20, 2007, 14:10:31
You will find the instructors top notch, always willing to spend extra time after cloass or on  weekends. I was onthe first BAC in Winnipeg back in 2002, lots of fun, lol.  I soon realizd,not studying was not going to cut it, lol.  As the above poster noted, you get a lot of info thrown at ya.  Unlike some courses where u do only 1 or 2 subjects at a time, on BAC you may have 3 or 4 on the go,so on emust prioritize the studying. Weather was actually a fairly complex subject, lots of info.  People fail, yes, not sure what the percentage is, but its not becuase the instructors won't help!!  I belive ur a navy guy CallofDuty, too easy to arrange a famil flight or pop in to one of the Squadrons near ya. Aesops love to talk about their job!!  Just dont come to late inthe afternoon as you may be lonely!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 20, 2007, 16:56:47
  I live a couple of minutes from shearwater and have met some AESOPS who seem to LOVE their job......thats why I'm so interested!!
  How long is the academic side of things?
C.O.D.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 20, 2007, 17:22:26
I'm no longer in, for some reason I thought best to move to be with my wife in the USA, lol  Now I have to suffer going through University to become a Registered Nurse.  I belive BAC is around 6 months in duration now?? I'm sure others Will chirp in with a more accurate time line.  CP 140 MOAT in Greenwood is approx 5 months depending on weather and a/c serviceability,not sure how long  the helo course in Shearwater is, again depends on a/c serviceability and weather. 
I found BAC to be high paced during the academic phase, lot thrown at ya, but once you started into the trainer (if one makes it that far,lol) the pace slowed down a fair bit.  Keep in mind I was on the first BAC course in Winnipeg, prior to that it was ABATS in Comox BC. Lot of new material/ teaching methods on BAC, so we were the guinea pig course. 
Accomodations on BAC are top notch. Own room, has a ful bath/shower, TV with cable, small fridge, coffee maker, microwave,computer desk, air conditioner/heater (u control the temp), pretty spiffy, lol  Even had maid service!!  Was not suppose to but the Aesop accom are in transient quarters, so  the building maids cleaned our rooms, but we treated them well. Al the empty beer bottles they wanted, lol plus gifts!   Best trade in the Forces, miss it a lot.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 20, 2007, 19:07:40
  Wow accomadations sounds amazing.....and it would be great to have the room to yourself and not worry about noisy roommates and such.  Actually it sounds like the officer quarters at shearwater or Juno towers even, with the maids and all.
   Would be hard to be away from the wifey and kids that long though, thats for sure.
C.O.D.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 20, 2007, 19:52:58
Not sure if they still do the maids. We were not entitled to it, but if ur nice to people, they tend to be nice back at ya. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on January 20, 2007, 20:04:04
  Wow accomadations sounds amazing.....and it would be great to have the room to yourself and not worry about noisy roommates and such.  Actually it sounds like the officer quarters at shearwater or Juno towers even, with the maids and all.
   Would be hard to be away from the wifey and kids that long though, thats for sure.
C.O.D.

Come and be an  AC Op (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,39209.0/all.html) instead.  You live in a hotel and get maid service daily while you're on course.  8)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 20, 2007, 22:07:49
  Daaaaayum the airforce just keeps getting better and better!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on January 20, 2007, 22:24:29
Why not give your naval career a chance before seeking other avenues? Personally if a brand new OS came into my section already looking to get out all it would demonstrate to me is a poor attitude....
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 20, 2007, 22:30:39
  Point taken EX...
Can you belive it...been in the Navy almost a year now......and still it will be another year or more until I even see what a ship looks like on the inside?
 Can't wait to try it out sometime :o
C.O.D.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on January 20, 2007, 22:34:11
Well guy you are on a demanding course and these days with technology being what it is we need people that know how to repair the systems cold. I would rather have someone that has spent 3-5 years off a ship learning the system then someone that is a tinkerer and figures things out as a hobby.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on January 21, 2007, 17:08:36
Why not give your naval career a chance before seeking other avenues? Personally if a brand new OS came into my section already looking to get out all it would demonstrate to me is a poor attitude....

Have to agree with Ex-Dragoon.  I intended to become an AES Op from the first day I joined the army.  However, I didn't apply until I had about 6 years in and I didn't get selected until I had 8 Years.  I wouldn't trade those 8 years with the Dragoons for anything.  The biggest thing to remember is - the best way to be a competitive applicant is to be a strong performer in your current trade.     
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 21, 2007, 18:23:48
Could not agree more than with what x-zipperhead stated.  Enjoyed my time in the navy, a few yrs less would have been ok  though!! lol
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 22, 2007, 17:11:49
  Wow accomadations sounds amazing.....and it would be great to have the room to yourself and not worry about noisy roommates and such.  Actually it sounds like the officer quarters at shearwater or Juno towers even, with the maids and all.
   Would be hard to be away from the wifey and kids that long though, thats for sure.
C.O.D.

True it would be hard to be away, but you could be posted on the west coast, where you would be looking at over a year away from home.  At least you have the chance of doing half of your training in your own backyard!  Short term pain for long term gain!

As for AESops loving the job, I am still looking for the one that hates it!   That quest is proving to be the most difficult yet!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 22, 2007, 17:14:37
I knew of a few disgruntled ones, mostly due to posted where they did not want to go, but actually hating the job, or wished they were back in their old trade, can't think of any!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 25, 2007, 13:19:53
Got my offer this morning, once everything is finalized I will officially change my name to Sub_Hunting_Guy..... Ok that might sound a little gay, perhaps I will have to put more thought into it.....


Anyway I am looking forward to the new challenges that await me....
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on January 25, 2007, 13:24:46
Congrats Sub_Guy!  And good luck with the name change thing.  ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on January 25, 2007, 14:05:59
Congrats and welcome to the trade.  I remember what a great feeling it was when that offer finally came.  You will be quite busy over the next 12-18 months but you have just joined the best trade in the CF, IMHO.  You should have a COTP INSTR message follow shortly ,IIRC, and then a BAC CRSE LOADING message.  Best of luck getting on the earliest course possible.

BTW, keep working on the new moniker because, yeah, Sub_Hunting_Guy is kinda gay ;D

You could just be unoriginal like me and go for x-Sub_Guy.

Edited; because my keyboard and I are not getting along today
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 25, 2007, 21:33:36
Congrats sub_guy......


Now dont be like that last bunch and fail BEW
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 25, 2007, 21:37:42
Seems to be a fair amount of pre-BAC students fail BEW. One gets a lot of info thrown their way on BEW and if your not used to studying, can be a difficult course.  Congrats, I stil recall the day I got my acceptance letter, I just happened to be painting my bedroom an airforce type of blue,lol  Congrats and best of luck.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 25, 2007, 21:39:17
Seems to be a fair amount of pre-BAC students fail BEW. One gets a lot of info thrown their way on BEW and if your not used to studying, can be a difficult course. 

More than a fair amount last week....... :o

I hope it was a wake-up call for those guys.....
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 25, 2007, 21:46:08
I think many come in with their eyes closed. I know on most navy/military courses, they do a "good" review or stomp their feet or make it very obvious whats going to be on the exam. I know BAC is not like that, neither was BEW. One has to ask questions and study!!  I recall, one of the classes we did with the navs. Was a review period prior to the exam. Instructor came in, asked if there was any questions, at first no one said anything, he then started to walk out of the class, lol  wasn't long before we started to ask questions.  I knew after I was unsucccessful on a few exams, because I wasn't studying I required a new game plan.  I owe a lot to one WO on the crse!! Best of luck.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 25, 2007, 21:50:09
yeah..i used to run reviews like that back when i was army....learned the hard way on BAC as well..... Didnt mind doing BEW after more than 2 years in the trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Good2Golf on January 25, 2007, 21:57:27
Congrats sub_guy......


Now dont be like that last bunch and fail BEW


Ballistic Eye-wear?   ;D


Sub_Guy, how about  "Sub_Hunter"?

G2G
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 26, 2007, 09:53:10
  Do they offer re-writes, or do they kick your butt out the door? 
I know for me here at the Naval engineering school, it had been a long time since I was in any sort of educational environment, and it took me some time to realize that you actually have to work very hard, ask questions, study and do homework every single day....or you will fall behind.....fast.  But they offer tutorials, and are willing to help you any time you need it...you just have to show the drive to learn.
Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on January 26, 2007, 10:05:02
  Do they offer re-writes, or do they kick your butt out the door? 
I know for me here at the Naval engineering school, it had been a long time since I was in any sort of educational environment, and it took me some time to realize that you actually have to work very hard, ask questions, study and do homework every single day....or you will fall behind.....fast.  But they offer tutorials, and are willing to help you any time you need it...you just have to show the drive to learn.
Cheers

We had a couple fail on my BEW and they got a chance to re-write later on, after the course was over and they went home.  It caused them a fair amount of stress, though, as BEW was defined as a pre-requisite in the COTP INSTR for them to be loaded on their BAC crse.  I don't think they word the INSTR that way any more because some guys don't even do the crse until well after BAC.

More than a fair amount last week....... :o

I hope it was a wake-up call for those guys.....

How many?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 26, 2007, 10:05:14
Not sure what the official stance is, but one does get rewrites, BUT you can't fail each exam on BAC,then do a rewrite, you only get soo many chances, then the big boot hits ur ***.  Instructors are top notch and willing to come in at any time to offer assistance.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Proud Canadian on January 26, 2007, 10:11:09
Received my offer this morning for AESOP.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on January 26, 2007, 10:40:59
Oh, you meant rewrites on BAC :P  If I remember correctly you could fail 1 and get a rewrite.  2nd failure you would go to the PRB (performance review board) and you may or may not get another chance.  3rd failure you were pretty much toast.  As for flights and simulators you could fail one.  Fail two and you're toast.  You could scrape by with a "marginal" but 2 marginals = failure.  So you could just imagine the stress level for a guy on my course who went the PRB route during the academic phase, then failed a flight followed by a marginal flight.  How do you think he felt going into his third flight?  He passed BTW and is doing just fine in the trade.

All that being said, I wouldn't sweat the course that much.  It's reputation is a little exaggerated IMO.  Work hard, apply what you are taught, be humble and willing to accept constructive criticism, and you will do fine.

Congrats ProudCanadian, welcome to the trade.  What trade are you now?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Proud Canadian on January 26, 2007, 10:46:05
Well I accepted the offer right away so I am on my way to being an ex sigop.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on January 26, 2007, 10:54:12
Best of luck.  I don't know you but I feel safe to say I am sure you will love the trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 26, 2007, 10:58:19
Looking back the exams were not that over the top difficult, one just had to study a bit. but if you don't study, well...........  Congrats on all those with the spiffy messages. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 26, 2007, 12:25:27
I have been talking with some fellas doing their BAC right now, and the feedback I am getting from them is teamwork, and study.....   The impression I am getting from them is they all sacrificed something to join this trade and they aren't going to let it slip away because of laziness, plus it helps when everyone on course is there because they want to be there.

Congrats on the message proud Canadian, I am sure we will be seeing each other in the near future.......
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 26, 2007, 12:28:26
I was on the first BAC, and thats what we did most evenings. In the accomodations block there a room equipped with a few big tables and TV. We would gather in there and group study for a bit. Helped a fair bit.  I know the studying habits I picked up on BAC have asisted me well now in university.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on January 26, 2007, 16:19:46
well i'm glad this years successful applicants are trickling through.  now that'll clear the way for those of us applying in 07!!.

good luck.  we'll see you next year
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 26, 2007, 19:23:32


How many?

8 failed....7 of them were pre-BAC guys....5 of them are on the next BAC serial
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on January 26, 2007, 19:39:22
Holy Crap!  The course isn't that hard!  Wake up call indeed.  Any complications with them starting BAC now?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 26, 2007, 19:42:28
Holy Crap!  The course isn't that hard!  Wake up call indeed.  Any complications with them starting BAC now?

Not that i know of but they will have to do it again, no re-writes for BEW. Just ask "D.O." back at your sqn how the course was......
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on January 26, 2007, 20:14:03
Tell me he wasn't the 8th guy that failed! :o
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 26, 2007, 21:13:59
Tell me he wasn't the 8th guy that failed! :o

lol.....no....but we were both intoxicated the whole week...gotta love the Pal and no-country mondays ( for starters).  Its wasnt just him, a pilot by the name of B.B. helped him out
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 26, 2007, 22:53:16
Talk about starting on the wrong foot, I am sure failing BEW can't be doing much in the terms of boosting confidence.

Is the BEW course that hard, I know a few fellas that have gone through it and they never once mentioned anything about it being hard.....Are they keeping something from me?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 27, 2007, 07:36:42
Its not that difficult if you study a bit every night. There is a pile of info to cover.  Some wil say its easy, some say its difficult, but there always seems to be a fair # of failures on the course, and not just aesops (or wannabe aesops, lol) 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: AES Op - Jr on January 31, 2007, 11:51:58
I just received my OT offer to AESOp today.  Is there anyone out there that can suggest any pre-reading or preparation I can do to get ready?  The official date is 16 Jul 07.  I can't wait.  Will miss being a Lineman 052, but time for a new challenge and adventure.
Thanks in advance to any suggestion.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 31, 2007, 12:53:06
BAC instructors will instruct you on what you have to learn.  Best think to do is go in with a good attitude and be prepared to study.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 31, 2007, 13:34:11
BAC instructors will instruct you on what you have to learn.  Best think to do is go in with a good attitude and be prepared to study.

+1

A bad attitude is the fastest way to be kicked out of the trade while on BAC......i've seen it too many times.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: AES Op - Jr on January 31, 2007, 13:39:00
Thanks Flames...   I am excited and prepared to crack the books every opportunity I can get. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 31, 2007, 13:40:29
Thanks Flames...   I am excited and prepared to crack the books every opportunity I can get. 

And you shall get that oppurtunity,lol  Nice comfy rooms to study in!!  Life is good on BAC, staff are excellent, accomodations are top notch, and the best mosquitos in the west!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on January 31, 2007, 13:44:57
A little bit off this topic, for those AESOPs out there. Where do you find most of the AES-OPs remuster from? What element?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hoist-monkey on January 31, 2007, 17:21:41
I just received my OT offer to AESOp today.  Is there anyone out there that can suggest any pre-reading or preparation I can do to get ready?  The official date is 16 Jul 07.  I can't wait.  Will miss being a Lineman 052, but time for a new challenge and adventure.
Thanks in advance to any suggestion.
Is 16 July your COS date?
Congrats by the way, when & if I pass my BAC I will hopefully get to fly with you sometime.
And for advice on what you can do to prepare, I would bone up on your math if you need it.
I don't know if you will be attached to a squadron with some AESops but they should be able to guide you.

Once again congrats
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 31, 2007, 17:26:42
Is 16 July your COS date?
Congrats by the way, when & if I pass my BAC I will hopefully get to fly with you sometime.
And for advice on what you can do to prepare, I would bone up on your math if you need it.
I don't know if you will be attached to a squadron with some AESops but they should be able to guide you.

Once again congrats

PM inbound...please read
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hoist-monkey on January 31, 2007, 17:28:13
A little bit off this topic, for those AESOPs out there. Where do you find most of the AES-OPs remuster from? What element?
I am not an AESop yet but from sailing with the MH community, most guys come from the Navy but on my BAC in April
there will be only 3 Navy guys and the rest from Combat arms.
I am not sure on the exact statistics of where AESops come from, but being in the Navy and seeing them doing their job
does draw a lot of guys to the trade, whether they meet the med requirements or even apply is another thing.
 
A lot of the trades in the Navy are hurting pretty bad so it isn't easy trying to get an OT right now.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 31, 2007, 17:34:37
Hoist-monkey,

In my unit we have an abundance of former combat arms and former air force techs. To say that most guys come from the navy is rather inacurate.  You are doing OJT in an MH unit therefore your perspective is rather limited. Just keep that in mind.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: glenndon on January 31, 2007, 18:42:54
Got my msg today with an effective date of 1 April.  Congrats to all and hope to see you soon.

Glenn
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on January 31, 2007, 18:51:27

 
A lot of the trades in the Navy are hurting pretty bad so it isn't easy trying to get an OT right now.

[/quote]



could you expand on that a bit?  i do believe that navy guys are getting ot's and i am also trying for one, specifically aesop.  i'd like to know which navy trades are "hurting" to the point that it's not easy to get an ot.



congrats glenn.  will be in touch.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: George Wallace on January 31, 2007, 19:10:00
A quick trip to the BPSO's office can clear that up.  They would have a list of what Trades are open to OT into, and what are open to OT out of.  If the Trade you are in is LOCKED, then you won't be able to OT, unless it is for Medical reasons (Which now a days may mean Release instead.).
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Proud Canadian on January 31, 2007, 19:30:16
Congrats Glenn

Maybe we will be on the same BAC course. Nothing like pushing the message to the last minute that requires an answer by Feb 1st


Scott

"on my way to being a former SigOp"

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: glenndon on January 31, 2007, 19:42:11
If you guys go on the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group - In Service Selection website, there is a list that details how many from each trade are allowed to OT out, based on current strength.  It is a different percentage based on how your trade is doing, ie. if your trade is GREEN, then 2% are allowed to OT out, and goes down from there.

Note this site is accessable by DWAN only.

Glenn
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 31, 2007, 19:45:17
Being offered a chance to become an Aesop is the best thing I could ask for, a trade made up of volunteers from all corners of CF is a trade worth working for.  It is going to be a long road before I am considered an Aesop. When the wings get pinned and my MOAT or OTU is complete I will still be the most junior fella (*****) in the sqn.  Basically a Cpl/Mcpl with the experience of a new recruit, starting all over again.

Congrats to all those who got their messages this year, I look forward to working with you as we all work towards that common goal, to call ourselves Aesops.

On the topic of OT restrictions, CFRG Borden has an up to date database which shows what trades are restricted, and which ones are open.


Glenn did you get that acceptance out?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: glenndon on January 31, 2007, 19:48:09
Got that acceptance drafted and the clerk said it is as good as gone.   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 31, 2007, 19:48:32
  It is going to be a long road before I am considered an Aesop. When the wings get pinned and my MOAT or OTU is complete I will still be the most junior fella (*****) in the sqn. 

Its realy not that bad.  You will still be in training for about 18 months after arriving to a sqn ( if you go to the CP-140 that is) as you upgrade from B-category to A-category.  So the BAC is just the begining......
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: duffman on January 31, 2007, 21:48:12
Quote
A quick trip to the BPSO's office can clear that up.  They would have a list of what Trades are open to OT into, and what are open to OT out of.  If the Trade you are in is LOCKED, then you won't be able to OT, unless it is for Medical reasons

True, you can check with the BPSO or view CFRG's latest database on PML standings.  However those figures have no bearing on whether or not you can apply or your possible acceptance.  This is because AES Op (and SAR Tech & FE) falls only under the COTP program, and as such, personnel are allowed to submit applications to OT to AES Op regardless of their current trade's manning shortfalls.  At present the only way for the 00019 trade to recruit personnel is through ISS.  If your present trade is in the yellow or red your C-of-C will probably brow beat the application, but they cannot stop it from being submitted (and accepted) to the BPSO and onto CFRG.

Congratulations to everyone selected this year!  Get your thinking caps on early, BAC sneaks up in no time.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HFXCrow on January 31, 2007, 22:07:33
ALL AESOPS--check the DIN MSG Center as CFNOS Halifax is running a SIGE 2810- Fundamentals of TECHELINT on Mar 19-09 April 07
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: AES Op - Jr on January 31, 2007, 22:52:32
Thank you to all.  I am on edge.  Currently in Afghanistan, kinda hard to get some things done.  But will be home for HLTA soon and am going to make time to get done what I have to.

Congrats to all others in my shoes.  Hope to meet you all soon.

Billy
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 31, 2007, 22:54:07
ALL AESOPS--check the DIN MSG Center as CFNOS Halifax is running a SIGE 2810- Fundamentals of TECHELINT on Mar 19-09 April 07

attention all new folks.....doesnt apply to you !!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Pistos on February 11, 2008, 15:48:34
First, my apologies for digging up an old thread, but several posts here mentioned talks of AESOp being opened to recruits.  I'm curious if anything came (or might be coming soon) from these talks.  The gentleman at CFRC Halifax hadn't heard of MOC 081 (I wouldn't necessarily expect him to be familiar with a remuster only trade) but a new fiscal year is almost upon us so April 1 seems a likely time to any changes to arrive.  Perhaps someone has heard a rumor that may keep AESOp at the top of my short list.

I'm not trying to reopen an old debate but it does seem silly for me to be choosing a trade with the idea of OT'ing within 48 months. That being said, if it comes to this is there any  MOC in particular that may provide experience most easily translated into the AESOp occupation?

p.s. - I haven't heard the roar of an Aurora over my store in Yarmouth so I'll assume that CDN Aviator is grounded and will replying shortly....I'm putting on my barkskin vest so fire away  ;)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on February 11, 2008, 16:02:10
Pistos, check out this website too: www.aesoplounge.com.  You'll get lots of information on the trade there including anything that might be up and coming. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on February 11, 2008, 18:36:19

p.s. - I haven't heard the roar of an Aurora over my store in Yarmouth so I'll assume that CDN Aviator is grounded and will replying shortly....I'm putting on my barkskin vest so fire away  ;)

Thats because i dont fly in that part of the world...........And i did fly today  :P

Direct entry into the trade from civvy street is coming but the process is slow going. maybe this year, maybe not.....watch and shoot.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on February 11, 2008, 18:55:33
if it comes to this is there any  MOC in particular that may provide experience most easily translated into the AESOp occupation?



The trades takes people from ANY trade in the CF. I came from an MOC as far removed from the air force as it gets. I had no quals or direct related experience.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on February 11, 2008, 19:10:38
My suggestion is choose a trade you are interested in, then apply for AES Op through the COTP program.  Why wait for them to decide when they are going to start taking from the street?

With my VERY limited exposure to the AES Op training system, I do not see any advantage to any specific trade giving anyone a leg up on the Basic AES Op Course.  I think it all comes down to the individual and how dedicated they are.




Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HFXCrow on February 11, 2008, 20:53:27
disagree NESOP gives you some basic fundamentals plus some of the specialty coursing later on in your AESOP career.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on February 11, 2008, 20:56:55
disagree NESOP gives you some basic fundamentals plus some of the specialty coursing later on in your AESOP career.

Theres no advantage to it. Ex-NESOPs have done just as good and just as poorly as people with no background. They may have a few courses that transfer over but those are pre-reqs for jobs that are not highly sought after in the AES Op trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HFXCrow on February 11, 2008, 20:58:15
still disagree..you just got a bad one...no names!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on February 11, 2008, 21:05:30
still disagree..you just got a bad one...no names!


I knew nothing of radar and EW and i did very well on BAC. My lack of background was corrected by a few hours reading books. Besides, you get taught everything you need to know in Winnipeg. The fact that folks originating from combat arms MOCs do very well on the course and in the trade tells me that there is no advantage to coming in as a former NES Op. The individuals personal motivation and ability to do 3 things at once are , IMHO, the biggest factors.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: NFLD Sapper on February 11, 2008, 21:09:15


I knew nothing of radar and EW and i did very well on BAC. My lack of background was corrected by a few hours reading books. Besides, you get taught everything you need to know in Winnipeg. The fact that folks originating from combat arms MOCs do very well on the course and in the trade tells me that there is no advantage to coming in as a former NES Op. The individuals personal motivation and ability to do 3 things at once are , IMHO, the biggest factors.


And if you still didn't get it you got a bigger hammer  ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on February 11, 2008, 21:09:42
Then I guess you could add sonar types to list of having a "one" up on people in the AES Op trade.   Its all fine and dandy to have a little something in your back pocket, but that doesn't mean anything if you don't pass BAC.   IMHO there is no specific trade that will give you an advantage on BAC, and getting through that first step (first of many) is a tough one.


Check ride tomorrow....     ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on February 11, 2008, 21:13:31
Lots of good advice already.  For one, pick a trade YOUR going to enjoy. Who knows, you may not want to remuster, and if you pick a trade you enjoy, your more likely to excel at it. Thus if you still want to remuster you can get a great write up.  AES op seems to take people from all trades, they want motivated people.  Can't speak for Army trades,as i was only reserve Infantry many years back. But for navy (was Nciop for 9 yrs) Any of the operation room trades are good, nesop (esm) Tasops--or what ever their name is now (sonar) and Nciop (radar) Nciop probably gives one a bit more rounded view as they nibble in all warfares. But it really doesn't matter, as you will get trained on all the equipment by great instructors!!  So keep an open mind and find a trade that you will enjoy and go from there
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on February 11, 2008, 21:15:29
BAC really has very little to becoming an AESOp, more of a filter course.  Good attitude and study skills gets one through BAC
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: airmich on February 12, 2008, 11:49:24
Lots of good advice already.  For one, pick a trade YOUR going to enjoy.

Definitely good advice there, and not just for the reasons already stated.  You will be in your trade for 4 years before you can remuster and there is no guarantee that you will get it first try.  So you don't want to be sitting around doing something that you are not even remotely enjoying or learning at.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Pistos on February 13, 2008, 18:30:14
Thanks for the replies all!  I wish my affairs were in order now and I could get on with this but by September I plan to be merit listed for an NCM position; if by then AES Op is open to recruits then all the better.  I have at least a few months (and, more likely, quite some time) to determine if this would be the best trade for me and my family.

Am I correct in understanding that under the COTP program I would be able to submit an application to OT to AES Op even if my current trade is red and otherwise locked?  Figure it's better to be straight on this point while my options are still wide open.

And yes, I have every intention of thoroughly enjoying and excelling at whatever trade I find myself in!  :D

Again, thank you all - I'll resume lurking again until another unanswered question surfaces.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 07, 2008, 02:04:20
Pistos,

All COTP applications now go thru ISS (In-Service Selection) in Borden.  If you can find the CFRG DIN site, you can find all the info and reg's for ISS and COTP numbers.  You can put your application forward for COTP and get a good write up in Part 5 of the application by your CO, and nail the interiew but there are OUTCAP numbers for each trade, based on the 'health' of the trade.  Health of trades is defined as Green (less than 5% below PML and up) Amber (10% - 5% below PML) and Red (greater than 10% below PML).  PML = Preferred Manning Level.   For each FY, ISS gets PML and TES (Trained Effective Strength) numbers from each Career Manager shop that they use to calculate the OUTCAP numbers.  I would have to go and check the ISS site for the newest info, but basically the OUTCAP numbers are based on the TES and PML numbers, for each trade.  Follow me so far?  Ok.  Now, for a trade that is Green, 2% of that trade is the OUTCAP number, or the amount of people allowed out of that trade thru the various programs, excluding Officer generating ones IIRC correctly.  Amber trades have a 1% OUTCAP number, and Red trades have a 0.5% OUTCAP number.  It is important to note this...and is written specifically into the policies governing COTP...even if a trade is Red, that trade is NOT locked out for COTP applicants.  Again, this is all on the ISS DIN site. 

So...as an example, lets say Widget Tech has a PML of 1000, and a TES of 970.  That would make them a Green trade (3% below PML).  Green MOCs are allowed to OT out 2% of the TES...so 2% of 970 would be 19.4 people allowed to OT out.

Why is this?  Because in the past, CMs did not want to loose people so they just locked their MOCs up.  They can't do it anymore, but IAW what I said above, ISS does limit how many people can OT out of a trade each FY based on a formula using the MOC TES, PML and the MOC 'health'.

As for a COTP application, if you submit it, your CoC has to fwd it on to the BPSS/PSO office.  They cannot stop it unless you do not meet the requirements laid out in the COTP msg itself (education, time in, if you are on C & P, etc).  If you meet the prereq's, they must fwd it on, after the CO signs Part 5 of the application (where he/she gets to make his/her comments and/or recommendations).  Even if you bomb the PSO interview, they are required to fwd the application to ISS.  It is there that the file will/will not be selected, by a Selection Board, for the MOC(s) you are applying for COTP for that FY. 

One specific requirement for AES Op that you must meet is Part III of the application, where you must do the Aircrew Part I and II medical, which is alittle more involved than a normal Part I and II, including the Cyclo eye exam.  Once you pass all the medical stuff, Part III of your application has to signed off "fit potential aircrew" by the Doctor before the PSO office will even look at your file.  Now, after that, your medical file will be sent to AMUB in Toronto, where it will be assessed and you will be assigned your Air Factor, which must be a 2 for AES Op.  If you are applying, start your medical stuff now and get your AF asap, if your AF is not assessed at a 2, you are out of the pile regardless of anything else.  As for whether or not AES Op will be accepting applicants right off the street, they aren't now, there appears to have been talk about this years ago and its not happening yet despite the fact that they are reasonably below PML (like 20%).  I wouldn't hold my breath on that, but thats just me.  I can tell you, that the 2008 COTP msg did allow for use of Reserve time if there was no break in service and it was continuous (ie Class B or C) time for the time in requirements of 48 months. 

A good starting point for info on Remustering for Reg Force NCMs is CFAO 11-12.  Basically for COTP, you have to have your QL4, 48 months of service and have a good record.  Even if you are still a Pte, you can apply for COTP if you meet all the other requirements.  Its all in the CFAO.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/011-12_e.asp

Hope that helps some...if you have a Forces account and want me to send you the links to the ISS site, let me know.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Pistos on April 11, 2008, 20:34:08
Thanks for the very informative post Eye the in Sky. I'll not worry about being locked out of a COTP and focus on enjoying and excelling at my chosen trade for the first 48 months or so of my military life.  I fear that the delay I'm facing in taking the first steps has given me too much time to fret about steps that are securely in the future.  [initiating corrective mentality....beginning to chill]

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 09, 2008, 19:20:16
To bring this thread back from the dead:

The 2009 Selection Board for COTP (Continuing Occupation Transfer Program) to MOSID 000019-02 AES OP-JR is coming up in early 2009.  Anyone interested should read CFAO 11-12 (http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/011-12_e.asp) to determine if they are eligible for the COTP.  I just went thru the application/selection process within the past year, and I am more the willing to answer questions/assist anyone interested with that process.  I started my application in mid-Oct and just barely got everything in on time, so there is likely not much time left for anyone interested who hasn't applied already. 

Current information on requirements specific to the AES Op MOC should be available from your BPSO office. 

I can't/won't answer questions on the MOC itself, as I am not a qualified AES Op.  I can tell you some info on what training you can expect but not what that training is like.  I'll leave that to those with the BTDT T-shirts.

What is an AES Op? (http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/article_e.asp?id=2995)

MH (Maritime Helicopter) AES Op video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlGoJ87YvWM)

News Footage, CP-140 Aurora Crew at work:  407 Sqn, 19 Wing Comox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDHIQ0J6Vww)

Prop Gun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r6_mVLkThE)  ;)


Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on September 09, 2008, 20:25:37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVPpgfRc_sE&feature=related

If anyone is wondering why there is only 3 people mentioned, its because the other 5 failed the course.

Its not an "attend" course.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on September 09, 2008, 20:31:53


Current information on requirements specific to the AES Op MOC should be available from your BPSO office. 



Starting some time next year, info will be available at the CFRC for those civillians who wish to join the trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hoist-monkey on September 09, 2008, 21:00:37
I am almost done my BAC and I can attest to how hard this course is.
It is definitely not an attend course, I haven't had to work this hard for a course in my life.
I came from what I thought was a demanding job (Mar Eng Tech), and there is no comparison.

When you pass the academic phase and move into the flying/trainer phase it only gets harder, because
now you are expected to apply all that classroom knowledge in the aircraft or trainer, and it is not easy.

All I can say is don't come to Winnipeg with any preconceived notions on what this course is going to be like,
because you will be looking for another trade in a very short while.

Oh and the course is going to be changing next year, for when the Direct Entry applicants come in.
It  will be run as a 3's course and then a 5A (academic) and then 5B(flying).

Good luck to all who apply.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on September 13, 2008, 17:13:22
  hmmm...run as a 3's course eh?  Does that mean its going to be a **** course?   Inspections...drill...more inspections....yelling etc etc?  Its going to be strange for some people who are Sgt's in their old trade or Mcpls, to be on course with BMQ recruits!  Would a private go straight to Mcpl after their BAC course?
   Can you give a description of what its like there in Winnipeg on course?  What are your days like....nights....homework, free time?  Acommodations, etc, etc.?
  Thanks alot
TH :cdn:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HFXCrow on September 13, 2008, 18:37:07
yelling, inspections...its the Airforce

I am sure they have other ways of inducing stress.

are they really making this a direct entry trade?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on September 13, 2008, 20:09:11

are they really making this a direct entry trade?


Yes. That decision has been made and aproved by the CF. The first DE candidates will be on course next year. IMHO, its about damned time.

  hmmm...run as a 3's course eh?  Does that mean its going to be a **** course?   Inspections...drill...more inspections....yelling etc etc?

I am sitting on the QS writting board for the new QL3 and QL5A courses soon. Until then, what the courses will be like is not determined.

Quote
  Its going to be strange for some people who are Sgt's in their old trade or Mcpls, to be on course with BMQ recruits! 

Thats just too bad. Other trades get candidates of various ranks that have remustered. This one will be no different.

Quote
Would a private go straight to Mcpl after their BAC course?

No, those days will be over.


Quote
   Can you give a description of what its like there in Winnipeg on course?  What are your days like....nights....homework, free time?  Acommodations, etc, etc.?
 

I have done the BAC a little over 4 years ago now so someone more current may have things to add. The course will obviously soon be changing. The course workload is high and the expectation to perform to standard rapidly is high as well. Lots of homework, lots of work in class, lots of work in the sim and lots of work in the airplane. Passing grades are not given out just to make you pass and you dont get many chances.

It is a selection course plain and simple.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on September 13, 2008, 20:48:45
  sweet..........I look forward to the opportunity to experience it myself someday.
CHeers
TH :cdn:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on September 13, 2008, 22:41:02
When I was there on course a typical day was as follows. (I may have been a freak/geek but I followed this schedule religiously)

Class 0800-1600
1600 - eat
1630-1730 - Relax
1730-2130 - Study
2200 - Lights out

Weekends I would study in the mornings and afternoons.

Every weekday was the same routine for me and it worked, everyone finds their groove and what works for them, but there isn't much free time until after the academic phase is over.  Accommodations in Winnipeg are first rate, probably among the best in Canada (having someone clean your room for you was nice too).

It was by far the most challenging course I have ever done and by far the most rewarding. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on September 13, 2008, 22:43:45
If you are on the BAC and you are studying one evening and you find yourself saying

"If i dont know it by now i never will...i'm going to go watch (insert name of TV show) ! "

Hope you will like whatever trade is open because you wont be an AES Op.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on September 13, 2008, 23:05:09
Bang on!
I'm on BAC right now and although we're about to start week 4, its a lot of studying. Usually 4 hours a day is the norm for the first few weeks. I use Dolphin_Hunter schedule and I find it works for me. Also, don't be afraid to ask questions/advices from the senior course. They'll be more than happy to help you out.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 13, 2008, 23:09:00
Has anyone seen the 2008/09 COTP msg yet?  I took a look today, the FPSO site has changed around and I didn't manage to find the stuff I was looking for when I was at the office for a few minutes...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hoist-monkey on September 14, 2008, 02:03:47
Just finished my last trainer on Friday, and passed ;D

Have 2 more BAF next week (if the weather & serviceability work out) and
then check ride the week after, so wish me luck, not that luck has anything to do with it.

All I can say and I am sure it has been said before, if you don't put every thing you have and then some
into this course, than don't bother showing up, because you will be wasting your time and the instructors.

You don't have to be a math whiz or be #1 in your unit to pass this course, what I feel you need to pass
is work with your class, listen and I mean really listen to your instructors, study hard and when you make
it to the trainer/flying phase, if you make a mistake on one part, don't let it take you down. Work through
and it find a way to get past the mistake/screw up.

Oh and try and leave your family/emotiona/ baggage at home, or sort it out before you get here, because you don't have the time
to deal with it on course and it will take you down.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on September 14, 2008, 04:52:47
I really feel for the BAC courses.  I'm pretty sure I know who Hoist-Monkey is and from talking to people in that course, it's a bag drive.  Not that the BANC isn't a bag drive  ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on September 14, 2008, 09:11:15
Speaking with a few instructors a couple of months ago and they have tweaked the course considerably since I left there.  I guess they have rewritten quite a few tests, took out 2 flights (2 trainers too) and added some new material. 

I would rather be in Winnipeg for a 6 month bag drive then a year long working half days BANC     >:D.

Another study tip, I had my walls covered with post-it notes and pieces of paper so no matter where I looked I was getting bombarded with information. 
*NOTE* Do not write on the windows. Keep your sideburns trimmed.   My ears are still ringing. (It was not a nice visit from the MWO, I still think he was yelling at the guy sitting behind me.  Hoist-Monkey knows who he is and he has killer sideburns)


Good luck with your BAF-9,10, and 11 Hoist.. 

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 14, 2008, 11:06:14
Is it ok to turn closet doors into tables??  >:D

(I seem to recall hearing a story about windows with writing on them...)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on September 14, 2008, 12:32:52
Is it ok to turn closet doors into tables??  >:D



Yup....take off one closet door. Lay it horizontaly on top of 2 chair backs.......instant map table.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hoist-monkey on September 14, 2008, 14:39:38
I have my walls covered in SOP calls, Drift & W/V calculations, Mayday & Pan Pan calls etc etc.
About the closet doors you can take them off to do your maps, they just have to go back on before the next day.
The cleaners will rat you out and you will be in front of the MWO.

On sideburns, I have gotten a few dirty looks by the DComd, but the school CWO and MWO don't notice, so...
I definitely don't have them as long as I usually do though.

Going in the trainer to go practice Homings in a few minutes, got my 2nd last BAF tomorrow, wish me luck.

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: BulletMagnet on September 14, 2008, 14:49:43
Well CF dress regs on sideburns require them to Bisect the ear... Oxford dictionary (the dictionary used by the CF states)

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/bisect?view=uk

bisect

  • verb divide into two parts.


As long as your side burns don't go past your ear lobe you are more then within regs... And yes this works though RSM's and such really hate you throwing the letter of the regs back at them LMAO

EDIT: Now back to your thread about AESOP to which I know nothing about......  ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on September 14, 2008, 15:23:17
My executive table was pimping (closet doors), Donald Trump would have been envious, but the MWO was not happy with our handy work.  We were told quietly (quiet because after the sideburns conversation everything seemed quieter) to put the doors back up and that we had a room to do map preparation in.  Now at that time there were only four of us, but having 8 guys in that room doing map work would get crowded.


What I did was take the back shelves off the desks, then placed the closet door across the desks, then took those shelves and stacked them to give me a bookcase.  Sure that might have been a tad extreme but I had some free time before the course started. 




Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on September 14, 2008, 15:36:02
We just went to the school and did the map work there.  I'll take Winnipeg any day over DC,lol
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 15, 2008, 17:11:21
Now that the cat is out of the bag about DEA (Direct Entry Applicants) aka 'off the street' types, and it is expected that the trade will open up to Component Transfer from the Reserves, will the "rules and reg's" for remusters within the Regs remain as it is (3 years w/QL4 for those under LOTP, 4 years w/QL4 for those under COTP)??

My guess is "no" but...though I'd put it out there as others might be wondering.  I'm in the breech for my OT now, so this change won't affect me personally but I was asked that question over the weekend.  I said "probably remain the same" as I can't see them them changing the COTP reg's now for 1 MOC.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on September 16, 2008, 10:26:49
I dont know what the answer is but i can certainly find out.

My educated 2 cents would say that the trade would move off the COTP list and become just a regular AVOTP trade with all the rules and regs of that program.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 17, 2008, 14:41:57
Here is the COTP AES Op Message for this year, condensed.  You can get a copy of the complete message from the PSO, or PM me and I can get you a copy to your Forces account or something.  The message is UNCLAS.  The CAPS are from the message, not me.

SUBJ: 2009/10 FY COMPETITION FOR THE ANNUAL CONTINUING OCCUPATION TRANSFER PROGRAM (COTP) - MOSID 00019 AESOP-JR

REFS:
A. CFAO 11-12
B. MOSID ENTRY EDUCATION STANDARDS - (Intranet Address removed by poster)
C. DAOD 5049-1 OBLIGATORY SERVICE
D. ADM (HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 05/05 NEW TOS
E. VOT APPLICATION FORM - (Intranet Address removed by poster)
F. DAOD 5023-2 PHYSICAL FITNESS PROGRAM
G. LFCO 24-02, PARA 13, PHYSICAL FITNESS
H. MATRIX OF OUT-CAPS BY OCCUPATION - (Intranet Address removed by poster)

1. BY DEFINITION THE COTP IS A CONTINUOUS PROGRAM THEREFORE APPLICATIONS WILL BE ACCEPTED BY DMCA 5-3/OCCUPATION TRANSFERS AT ANY TIME

2. THE DEADLINE FOR RECEIPT OF APPLICATIONS AT DMCA 5-3 FOR 09/10 SELECTIONS IS 14 NOV 08. UNITS SHOULD CONSULT THEIR LOCAL BPSO OFFICE FOR LOCAL SUBMISSION DEADLINES

3. DUE TO CHANGING SERVICE REQUIREMENTS SOME MOSIDS WILL BE LIMITED WITH RESPECT TO THE NUMBER OF TRANSFERS ALLOWED OUT.  LIMITS OUT (OUT-CAPS) ARE LISTED AT REF H

4. ELIGIBILITY:

A. APPLICANTS MUST MEET TIME-IN REQUIREMENT LISTED AT REF A ANNEX B
(PREVIOUS P RES TIME MAY BE INCLUDED IN CALCULATION IF NO BREAK IN SERVICE HAS OCCURRED)

B. APPLICANTS MUST MEET EDUCATION ENTRY CRITERIA LISTED AT REF B

C. ALL APPLICANTS MUST HAVE COMPLETED A MEDICAL UPDATE WITHIN THE LAST TWELVE MONTHS OF THIS YEARS COMPETITION DEADLINE AND POSSESS THE REQUIRED MEDICAL PROFILE FOR THEIR PRESENT MOSID AND TARGET OCCUPATION

D. APPLICANTS MUST ALSO HAVE COMPLETED A BASE LEVEL AIRCREW. PART 3 OF REF E MUST BE ANNOTATED QUOTE FIT POTENTIAL AIRCREW UNQUOTE WITH AIR FACTOR ANNOTATED BY THE BASE SURGEON

E. AS PER REFS F AND G, MBR MUST HAVE A CURRENT ANNUAL PHYSICAL FITNESS EVALUATION WITH A PASS RATING ACHIEVED NO MORE THAN ONE YEAR, OR AN EXPRES INCENTIVE EXEMPT PASS RATING (INCLUDING ANY APPLICABLE ENVIRONMENTAL OR OCCUPATION STANDARD ASSESSED AS EQUAL TO OR HIGHER THAN MPFS, I.E., LFCPFS, ETC.) ACHIEVED NO MORE THAN TWO YEARS, PRIOR TO ANY VOLUNTARY OCCUPATION TRANSFER (VOT)). PROOF OF MBR S STATUS MUST BE PROVIDED PRIOR TO THE
EFFECTIVE DATE OF ANY VOT (I.E. AT TIME OF VOT OFFER)

5. CAREER IMPLICATIONS:

A. APPLICANTS MUST THOROUGHLY UNDERSTAND THE CONDITIONS OF SERVICE
AS OUTLINED IN REFS A, C AND D. APPLICANTS MUST ALSO BE AWARE THAT
THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES OF ACADEMIC OR TRAINING FAILURE ARE
REASSIGMENTS TO THEIR FORMER OCCUPATION, OR TO AN OCCUPTION THAT IS
OPEN AT THAT TIME OR RELEASE

B. SELECTED APPLICANTS WILL NO LONGER BELONG TO THEIR UNIT UPON
EFFECTIVE DATE OF VOT (APS 09 FOR MOST), AT WHICH TIME THEY WILL BE
POSTED TO THE NEAREST BTL OF THEIR HOME BASE TO AWAIT TRG

6. COORDINATING INSTRUCTIONS:

A. UNITS MUST SEND THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS TO DMCA 5-3/OCCUPATION
TRANSFERS, NDHQ 7CBN, 101 COLONEL BY DRIVE, OTTAWA, ON  K1A OK2:
(1) COMPLETED VOT APPLICATION FORM AT REF E (PARTS 1-5)
(2) CF 285 PERSONNEL SELECTION REPORT
(3) UP TO DATE MPRR INCLUDING FITNESS RESULTS (NOT EMAA VERSION)
(4) WAIVER IF APPLICABLE

B. DO NOT SEND PERS FILES OR UERS TO DMCA 5-3

C. OFFERS FOR SUCCESSFUL APPLICANTS SHOULD COMMENCE EARLY FEB 09 AND
CONTINUE THROUGH END MAR 09
. NO REQUESTS FOR UPDATES ON ACTIVE FILES
WILL BE CONSIDERED UNTIL 30 APR 09 AND MBRS MUST GO THROUGH THE UNIT
CHAIN OF COMMAND
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on September 18, 2008, 15:12:40
  How often does a new Aes Op course start?  Do they run them at set times, or do they have to wait for a certain amount of people to fill a course, then run it?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on September 18, 2008, 15:13:27
  How often does a new Aes Op course start?  Do they run them at set times, or do they have to wait for a certain amount of people to fill a course, then run it?

Thats all about to change........wait out.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hoist-monkey on September 27, 2008, 22:15:09
There are now 8 new AES Ops, from BAC 0801.

Me and my flying partner were the last 2 to pass our check-rides today.

Now I am drinking many beers and can't wait for January '09 to come to start my OTU in Shearwater.

Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 27, 2008, 22:17:12
Hey congrats Hoist-Monkey!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on September 28, 2008, 02:29:28
Congrats!  Be downing some drinks with you guys at the reception after your wings grad!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: JohnnyCanuck1977 on October 11, 2008, 22:51:43
Well dang it just saw the above post wrt to the deadline for COTP submissions, guess I'll have to wait until next season to re-muster, I want to get my PLQ done before I re-muster to AESOP, PLQ starts in a few weeks.

From the looks of it sounds like this will be the last time for COTPs.  After this because of the direct entries it will be a regular AVOTP trade, which means I will be subject to the health of the trade when it comes time for my re-muster. I realize that I could stop my PLQ and persue the COTP but I think having a PLQ will help my chances greatly when it comes time to re-muster, beside that I don't think I'll have enough time to get my file ready before the deadline, besides might as well get this course over with while I've got the chance, eh?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 11, 2008, 22:58:40
Do your PLQ.  You have no guaruntee of a remuster, so don't give up a course...IMO.

And..regardless of AES Op moving from COTP to AVOTP, the health of your trade still comes into play either way.  Green, Amber and Red healths apply to OTs, which COTP and AVOTP are part of.

You know...you could still check with your BPSO.  Its not too late.  I started my application last year in early Oct and had it complete, in a few weeks.  On the medical side, you need to do the Aircrew Part I and II and be signed off as 'fit potential aircrew' for your application to move over, you don't need your actual Air Factor 2, Fit AES Op to make it to the selection board, although not getting it at a later time is a show-stopper.

You still have a month, the application is not that hard (really) and if your PSO was like mine, they helped push it right along.  There is time if you want it bad enough (and if your CoC will not screw you around).

However, if your trade is red, there is a definite limited # of OTs out.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: JohnnyCanuck1977 on October 11, 2008, 23:13:56
Your right I will still start the application,  if I get it done by the due date great if not at least I'll have the ball rolling early for the next selection board. I've waited this long to OT so what's a few more months or year. 

No matter what happens though I am not staying NCIOP for much longer. Not that there's anything wrong with NCIOP it's just that I've acheived all I can from a trade perspective there is not much more to learn.  I'm currently a SAAC-B and it is only a matter of time before they post in an officer to take my place, and I can't go back to being a Track Supervisor not after the sexy job of SAAC. I JUST CAN'T DO IT MAN!! lol.  So afer spending a few years working with aircrews I figured I might as well be aircrew.

I'll have to admit though I'm abit apprehensive about starting all over again, but heck seems like the everyone I know is re-mustering to something these days.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 11, 2008, 23:35:01
If you have any questions about the application, PM me if you want.  I just jumped the hoops a year ago.

I will say this to you, despite what your CoC will say, Part 5 does not have to be signed off before your PSO interview.  In fact, the PSO side is Part 4 for a reason.  Part 5 is where your CO puts his/her comments.  Every PSO shop is different but...thats how the FPSO was here (Halifax).

If you are really interested and going to try to make the deadline for the Selection Board in early 09, I suggest the 1st thing you do is get a Part I/II for 'fit potential aircrew' booked ASAP and let them be scared to let them know what its for (they changed the urgency of mine when I mentioned it was for aircrew), and when your submission date is so they can try to fit you in ASAP.  You need the Part III of the application signed off by a Flt Surgeon as "fit potential aircrew" before the PSO shop can action anything.  Very important part of the process.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on October 14, 2008, 15:42:11
No matter what happens though I am not staying NCIOP for much longer. Not that there's anything wrong with NCIOP it's just that I've acheived all I can from a trade perspective there is not much more to learn.  I'm currently a SAAC-B and it is only a matter of time before they post in an officer to take my place, and I can't go back to being a Track Supervisor not after the sexy job of SAAC. I JUST CAN'T DO IT MAN!! lol.  So afer spending a few years working with aircrews I figured I might as well be aircrew.

I'll have to admit though I'm abit apprehensive about starting all over again, but heck seems like the everyone I know is re-mustering to something these days.

I think at one point we were all a little apprehensive about starting over, especially going into the AES Op trade where the Basic AES Op Course had a 40% (avg) fail rate.   It's a decision that should be well thought out before making the jump.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: JohnnyCanuck1977 on October 15, 2008, 18:49:14
PLQ starts on the 28th Oct. Can't get my part 1 for aircrew done until around that time, so it looks unlikely that I will be able to get my file together in time.  But like I said before at least I'll have my file completed and ready to go for the next round of COTP's. Of course from the scuttle butt I'm hearing it looks like this may be the last course run in the traditional format. After this course there is a real chance that this trade will allow general recruting which means that there will be a traditional QL3 followed by a QL4 and finally QL5.  Not sure how the course will be broken down but I assume I won't be getting my Master's back for awhile after I remuster. On the bright side I'll already have my PLQ done,yay me.  :P

On a different note; anyone have any insight as to if the course format is changing?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on October 15, 2008, 18:54:48
As a former NCIop, any amount of hassles to get into the AESop world is worth it.  Best job in the Forces. Each day as I'm studying in school, i shake my head why did I leave,lol  Damn women, but she is worth is,lol  Check out   http://aesoplounge.com/  1 of the chiefs dropped a bit of info on the new course, as it is stil in the projects! http://www.aesoplounge.com/showthread.php?t=424
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on October 15, 2008, 18:55:05


On a different note; anyone have any insight as to if the course format is changing?

The AES Op QS writting board sits in Winnipeg later this month and runs for 3 weeks. Wait for that to be done and more info will start filtering through. Until then, its all rumours and people's opinions only.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 15, 2008, 18:55:27
The stuff I am hearing via RUMINT is:

- QL3 (academic phase, in CADPAT, not flight suit)

- If you pass the QL3, then you go on to do AMT, BSERE, BEW and Sea Survival.

- Then back to CFANS (or whatever it will be called by then) for the QL5 *flying portion*.  The QS for the soon-to-be-new QL3, etc hasn't even been written yet but is soon going to be, and one of our board members may be able to provide detailed info as he is on the writing board.

Speaking from a common sense point of view having worked inside the trng system for 14 years or so, that flow would make some sense.  Why waste money putting someone thru AMT, BSERE, etc only to have them fail off for math at a later date?  Thats just wasted time and money...but time will tell.

I'm am not even going to guess at changes to the MOCs OFP, Spec Pay qual, career progression, etc.

You can also get lots of info on the AES Op Lounge too.  

http://aesoplounge.com/index.php
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on October 15, 2008, 18:57:22
one of our board members may be able to provide detailed info as he is on the writing board.


That would be me.

For everyone else, see my post above.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 15, 2008, 18:58:18
That would be me.

For everyone else, see my post above.

Well, I didn't want to advertise that on your behalf   8)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: x-zipperhead on October 15, 2008, 23:39:12
Eye in the Sky, your RUMINT is pretty good.  Even though the QS has yet to be written, the basic intent is what you have heard.  Details change, QS an TP's get created and tweaked but at the end of the day the QL 3 will be academic, no flying.  QL 5 will be a combination of academics and flying, very similar to the course that is run now.  Courses will be loaded with a combination of direct entry privates and COTP's.  As for career progression and spec pay etc, that's outside my lane.  I've been hearing stuff but I'l stay in my lane not give bad info.  There will probably be some changes.

CDN Aviator, see you when you're out here.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on October 16, 2008, 00:20:01

CDN Aviator, see you when you're out here.

Sure thing buddy
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HL250 on October 22, 2008, 16:36:44
Hey everyone, I am new at this. I have just heard of AESOp from a friend and I was interested every since. I am currently an NCIOp and would like more information on this trade. How can I learn more about it and who should I talk to?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 22, 2008, 16:38:48
Did you read any of the previous 18 pages?  What coast are you on?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: JohnnyCanuck1977 on October 22, 2008, 23:57:47
Thier are quite a few folks on my ship that are remustering and some have had success, others not so much.  As a casual observer out of the 10 transfers that are pending on my ship the 4 apps that were submitted just before the summer all 4 we're accepted. The remaining 6 were not submitted or started untill after the summer or in the last few weeks and none of those apps were accepted. Some were refused because the apps didn't meet all the requirements for transfer but most were refused because they were not able to get waivers out of the trades.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you intend to COTP or remuster get your request in early in the year just before or just after the FY. That way you'll have a better chance of getting a waiver out of you trade. Of note it seems that some of the OPS trades are getting dangerously low on pers so if you want out don't dilly dally get your crap in order now.

One last thing no one is allowed to request a transfer out of NCIOP until after I get my waiver,lol.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HL250 on October 23, 2008, 16:49:15
Thanks! I just read them all and realized I got a few years to go ??? I'll keep this opportunity in mind. Good Luck to all!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 21, 2008, 20:06:08
CH-124 Sea King Video HelAirDet in the Gulf (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kauoIhsw7xw&eurl=)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: KingKikapu on November 23, 2008, 21:28:59
lol did I see a 'use me I'm EASY' button in the back?!?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on November 24, 2008, 00:40:42
That just proves being a TACCO can't be *that* hard    :D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on December 26, 2008, 18:28:32
So apparently the CF recruiting site says that AESOP is open to direct entry now. I've been unable to keep up with the times lately, so anyone care to tell me when this happened?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on December 27, 2008, 00:26:38
so anyone care to tell me when this happened?

Its fresh off the press, so to speak.

Edit : I look on the site and didnt see it listed yet. I know its coming soon though.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on December 27, 2008, 00:46:28
This is the link I saw it at-

http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/html/index.aspx?lang=en&sm1=0&sm2=3&sm3=0&sid=241&news=1&option=546#546 (http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/html/index.aspx?lang=en&sm1=0&sm2=3&sm3=0&sid=241&news=1&option=546#546)

All the good trades are going direct entry. Oh well.




Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on December 27, 2008, 01:01:40


http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/html/index.aspx?lang=en&sm1=0&sm2=3&sm3=0&sid=241&news=1&option=546#546 (http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/html/index.aspx?lang=en&sm1=0&sm2=3&sm3=0&sid=241&news=1&option=546#546)   

I was looking in the job explorer so that why i didnt see it.

Quote
Oh well.

 ???

Is that a problem ?

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on December 27, 2008, 01:11:39
No I think it could be good for the trades, I just wish options like this and others were available a year ago.


(Yes I'm aware it's a very hard course/trade)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on December 27, 2008, 20:36:01
I found the new trades video online at the AES op lounge, very interesting to say the least. From watching the video and poking around the gallery, I have some questions for you AES ops out there...without straying into anything sensitive of course

How much of the trade is "eyes on" type recce/evidence gathering? Is there alot of course material focusing on visual ID's of foreign/friendly vessels? I was always under the impression AES Op was mostly sonar/radar signatures and console work, I guess its a combination of both?

Anyways the video specifically mentions direct entry now, so it looks like a good go for people.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on December 27, 2008, 20:56:20


How much of the trade is "eyes on" type recce/evidence gathering?

We use all our sensors to provide information, thats what our job is. Sometimes that sensor is the Mk1 eyeball, most times its electronic sensors, including digital cameras and EO.


Quote
Is there alot of course material focusing on visual ID's of foreign/friendly vessels?

It is a significant portion. Our job on the crews is to be the SMEs on the subject. When i was on the QS writting board for the new courses, we made sure that a strong emphasis was made on core recce skills. This involves much more than just looking at something and saying "this is a________". We have to be able to identify ships, submarines, aircraft and land systems. We have to know what radars they are using, be able to identify the radar signals and interpret what they mean. We have to be able to identify what weapons systems they are asociated with and what are the threat ranges for those systems.

With the new radars we are getting, we will have to be ale to interpret a SAR / ISAR image and know what the contact is based on the picture the system provides. SONAR is also a big function we do to varying degree based on what airframe you fly. The guys going UAVs will have their own skill sets that will be developed and you can expect and "army-type" environment as the usual operational focus. Guys who will find themselves sent to CFEWC will find themselves in a specialized environment.


Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on December 28, 2008, 14:31:00
Thanks for the detailed response, I will be sure to attend the recruiting brief when the AES Ops come to town. Do you guys still employ the mk 46 out of curiousity, or are there plans to switch to a different system?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on December 28, 2008, 14:57:30
Do you guys still employ the mk 46 out of curiousity,

Mk46 Mod 5 is the model in current use.


Quote
or are there plans to switch to a different system?

I have not heard anything.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: snoop101 on January 13, 2009, 18:12:27
Does anyone know the colour vision level for AES Op? I tried asking the medical lady here where i live and she couldent provide it to me. Which I found strange because last year when I talked to a medical person they had a sheet that had every occupation and what level of colour vision you needed.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 13, 2009, 18:29:23
Edited :

Here is a link for the med cat for all MOCs

AES Op is CV2 minimum

http://www.dnd.ca/health-sante/pd/cfp-pfc-154/pdf/AN-Eapp1-eng.pdf
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: snoop101 on January 13, 2009, 20:22:53
Thanks so much. I been trying to search for that pdf file for the last couple days.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 20, 2009, 07:38:13
  Hey guys......does anyone know if there are going to be any upcoming info sessions for AES Ops here in Halifax? 
Cheers
Steve :cdn:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 20, 2009, 08:15:03
Not sure about that, but...there are AES Ops at 423 and 406 here across the harbour.  I was able to talk to 2 AES Op Sgts the day before my PSO interview.  Shouldn't be too hard to arrange, unless things have changed...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: flames9 on January 20, 2009, 09:27:05
Ya, if your near, Shearwater, Greenwood NS, or Comox, Pat Bay BC, too easy to find a willing AES op to brag about the trade.  And will look good in the eyes of the PSO that you researched the trade.  Most likely arrange a famil flight if you talk to the right people.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 20, 2009, 09:35:15
Ya, if your near, Shearwater, Greenwood NS, or Comox, Pat Bay BC, too easy to find a willing AES op to brag about the trade.  And will look good in the eyes of the PSO that you researched the trade.  Most likely arrange a famil flight if you talk to the right people.

I suggest you know as much about the trade as you can before the PSO interview.  I brought in a binder with all the info I was able to find and I can tell you for sure it certainly helped my score on the interview.

I didn't manage the famil flight though...damn!

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 20, 2009, 12:39:15
  I'm actually in Shearwater and work very close to 406 Sqn........ ;D
I guess you could say I'm buliding the nerve to let my CoC know of my intentions to apply for AES OP A.S.A.P.!!  I have under a year to wait now :)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 20, 2009, 13:28:18
ahhhh...I think I've read your stuff on the Lounge...I knew the name was familiar!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 20, 2009, 13:45:37
I guess you could say I'm buliding the nerve to let my CoC know of my intentions to apply for AES OP A.S.A.P.!!  I have under a year to wait now :)

It is not like you are asking your father for the car keys.  The sooner the ball starts rolling the better prepared you and your COC will be.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on January 20, 2009, 14:48:31
 Roger that Dolphin_Hunter......
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: snoop101 on January 23, 2009, 15:52:13
I noticed that AES Op's work with UAV's. Would they work along side an Air Nav Officer doing this or would they have full control over the UAV.

Curious if anyone on this site has ever controlled an UAV?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 23, 2009, 17:32:51
I noticed that AES Op's work with UAV's. Would they work along side an Air Nav Officer doing this or would they have full control over the UAV.



AES Ops operate the UAV payload, thats it.
Title: AES Ops: Changes taking flight
Post by: NFLD Sapper on January 24, 2009, 17:21:10
AES Ops: Changes taking flight
by Stela Susic (http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=5019)


They know only the words “exciting” and “dynamic” can properly describe their careers as airborne electronic sensor operators (AES Ops). As the crewmembers that operate airborne sensors on CP-140 Auroras and Sea King maritime helicopters, they help defend Canada’s sovereignty and support Canadian missions abroad.

“In 24 years, there’s never been a dull moment,” says Warrant Officer Brad Sapelak, from 12 Wing Shearwater. “I've served on two tours, numerous deployments and countless exercises. There is no other military occupation I’d prefer to the AES Op.

“The future is rife with excitement and potential as we face many significant changes,” he adds, “including a new recruiting process, and occupational growth which is a result of expanded operational functions.”

These changes are coming—and fast—keeping AES Ops on their toes. The CF is shifting its recruitment efforts into high gear and overhauling the occupation by opening doors to the best and the brightest talent outside the military. This marks a change in a process that was traditionally only open to CF personnel through an occupational transfer. Kicked off in this month, the three-year direct-entry trial aims to attract the talent that might otherwise go to other employers looking for similar skill sets.

In addition, the AES Op occupation will soon take over the CP-140 acoustic sensor operator’s function from air combat systems officers (formerly known as air navigators), as well as duties operating unmanned aerial vehicle electronic sensor systems.

Directorate of Air Personnel’s Lieutenant-Colonel Donald Albert says even without these occupational changes, being an AES Op offers a diverse, evergreen working environment. “Technology keeps changing and you work as part of a team,” he says, “so you must be mentally flexible to do this job.”

Sergeant Jay Krzywonos, a 17 Wing Winnipeg AES Op instructor, agrees. “When I was in the Navy and a Sea King was embarked, I had a glimpse of how exciting and challenging this job is,” he says. “Now, in just more than two years, I’ve been involved in patrols off the west coast, several large naval exercises in San Diego, medical evacuations, and a tour of the Arabian Gulf. I also had the opportunity to work with the RCMP, the US and Canadian Coast Guard, and other government agencies. It’s exciting and rewarding at the same time.”

If that’s not enough, the operators’ working environment will be modernized, too. Delivery of the new Cyclone helicopters to replace the Sea Kings is scheduled to begin in late 2010.

Of course, the perks aren’t bad, either. “The travel has to be one of the more attractive aspects of the job,” says Sgt Chris Culligan, an AES Op instructor at 17 Wing Winnipeg. “They can range in duration from a couple of days to a few months. I have visited the United Kingdom, France, Italy, Curacao and El Salvador, among others.”

With this kind of excitement, who wouldn’t want to be an AES Op?

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forces.gc.ca%2Fsite%2Fcommun%2Fml-fe%2Fimages%2Farticles%2FfullSize%2F12-03-12.jpg&hash=5b8cf366438750e725117f6695dd13b2)

Title: Definitely not a desk job
Post by: NFLD Sapper on January 24, 2009, 17:45:23
Definitely not a desk job (http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=5020)

Airborne electronic sensor operators (AES Ops) operate airborne sensors on different types of aircraft, including the CP-140 Aurora, using advanced electronic sensor systems to counter threats to Canada’s sovereignty.

They are responsible for detecting and tracking submarines, supporting search and rescue operations and MEDEVACs, helping the Department of Fisheries with evidence collection and pollution violations, and working with the RCMP on counter-narcotics patrols.

The primary functions of an AES Op are:

operating radar, electro-optical infra-red systems, magnetic anomaly detection, and electronic warfare equipment;
planning and preparing for missions;
taking airborne photography;
loading and arming airborne weapons and search store systems;
operating the helicopter-mounted machine gun system;
communicating with internal and external agencies; and
collecting evidence.


“AES Ops are the eyes and ears of the long-range patrol fleet and have played pivotal roles in operations such as SHARP GUARD and APOLLO. They are constantly upgrading their technical knowledge through military, university and college courses because, on missions, there is no room for error. If you make a mistake, a mission can fail.”

—WO John Saunders

How to apply Personnel considering entering the AES Op occupation should have an interest in flying, enjoy working with electronic equipment and be able to quickly master new technologies.

All applicants are required to have a minimum Grade 12 education, with at least Grade 10 academic-level math. All candidates also need to pass aptitude, medical and physical fitness tests.

Members of the CF can apply by contacting a personnel selection officer and requesting an occupational transfer. Civilians can now apply through recruitment centres or by clicking on “Join Us” at www.forces.gc.ca.

Training
The nature of the AES Op job dictates constant learning. Once candidates go through a selection process, they start training comprising the Basic Military Qualification course, in Quebec, and Basic Military Occupation Training, in Ontario Winnipeg, Manitoba.

Once employed, AES Ops can bump up their skills with advanced and specialty education available through formal courses or on-the-job training.

EDITED TO FIX A GEOGRAPHICAL ERROR AS POINTED OUT BY CDN AVIATOR.
Title: Re: Definitely not a desk job
Post by: aesop081 on January 24, 2009, 17:52:16
Basic Military Occupation Training, in Ontario.


Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 24, 2009, 18:22:03
Nice articles, but there is something missing from the photos.  Can anyone guess?

That's right LRP stuff!

Now how are we supposed to attract people with Sea King photos?   >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: NFLD Sapper on January 24, 2009, 18:32:54
Nice articles, but there is something missing from the photos.  Can anyone guess?

That's right LRP stuff!

Now how are we supposed to attract people with Sea King photos?   >:D

Bring it to the attention of Stela Susic

 >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Kenyan on January 29, 2009, 19:47:15
Hi,

I read through the first 6 pages of this thread, then skipped to the last 4 pages for more up to date information and reading http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,81524.0.html (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,81524.0.html). Just have a couple questions. I took principles of math 11 ("smart" math with algebra and such) but that was a couple years ago now, though I could recall some things about it while I was doing practice aptitude tests, planning on going back to my high school and relearning that math, as a refresher course of sorts.

1. How high of a math score do you need on the test to be able to be considered for AESOp? ( have a conditional employment for AESOp right now)

And when I was talking to the recruiter he said in passing that I would be eligible for Air and Sea and Hazard allowance. I just want to make clear I was excited about this job before he mentioned this, seeing as how as long as I make enough to cover my mortgage I'm happy.

2. So if you were posted to a sea king that was "attached" to a ship, would that mean you would get both air and sea allowance? or just one? ( I read through the allowance thread but couldn't find answer to that)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 29, 2009, 19:50:09

2. So if you were posted to a sea king that was "attached" to a ship, would that mean you would get both air and sea allowance? or just one? ( I read through the allowance thread but couldn't find answer to that)

Once you are qualifed in the Maritime Helicopter world (Sea King/Cyclone in the future) and posted to a MH Sqn/HelAirDet, you would get both Air Crew and Sea Duty allowances.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 29, 2009, 20:30:48

1. How high of a math score do you need on the test to be able to be considered for AESOp? ( have a conditional employment for AESOp right now)


Very high.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Kenyan on January 29, 2009, 20:43:33
Sigh, well I'll start cracking the books open tomorrow. Things arent looking good for aesop position then, I was decent in math but was never an A student. Whatever I'll try my best and see what happens.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 29, 2009, 20:45:59
I was decent in math but was never an A student.

Neither was i but yet here i am.......You'll never know until you try. The CFAT math is only the begining. Theres more math on the BAC.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Kenyan on January 29, 2009, 21:03:11
cool, well I'll aim high and start refreshing my math, along with getting into shape. I was making the recruiter's job difficult due to his questions. Would you rather work indoors or outdoors? I dont care, have worked sitting down for 8 hours a day, and have worked drilling outdoors for 14 hours a day during winter. I'll be happy with anything, just want to learn new things, and hopefully travel. *sorry I always end up going off topic*
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: NFLD Sapper on January 29, 2009, 23:20:00
Neither was i but yet here i am.......You'll never know until you try. The CFAT math is only the begining. Theres more math on the BAC.

And you made it through your previous MOC with fractions  ;D


cool, well I'll aim high and start refreshing my math, along with getting into shape. I was making the recruiter's job difficult due to his questions. Would you rather work indoors or outdoors? I dont care, have worked sitting down for 8 hours a day, and have worked drilling outdoors for 14 hours a day during winter. I'll be happy with anything, just want to learn new things, and hopefully travel. *sorry I always end up going off topic*


anything is possible
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 29, 2009, 23:25:52
For what its worth on the math side of the CFAT;

I wrote my first CFAT in 1989.  Not sure what I scored, but it was good enough for Infantry, and later, for Armoured.  At the time, I had completed grade 10 in PEI. 

I re-wrote in 2006, and all I reviewed before was fractions.  That score was good enough for my current MOC (ATIS Tech) and AES Op (they used my 2006 scored when I applied for AES Op a year ago).  My score was good enough to make the cut on the CFAT side.

Between my 2 CFATs, I had completed the GED program for my Gr 12 (General) and completed several years of college, centered in IT/Network Admin/Network Engineering.  NO math was covered in those college years.

The best thing I did, IMO, was (1) review the area I felt weak in and (2) relaxed during the test.

Edit - none of this has any bearing, IMO, in my ability to pass BAC or the new stream of trng currently being introduced to the AES Op - Jr world.  It *may* represent a certain apptitude to pass said trg.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 29, 2009, 23:29:18
 

  My score was good enough to make the cut on the CFAT side.


The CFAT score required for AES Op has been changed to reflect the higher standards demanded by the new course and the direct entry AES Op trial.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 29, 2009, 23:31:51
The CFAT scores required for AES Op has been change to reflect the higher standards demanded by the new course and the direct entry AES Op trial.

 So...you're saying I am behind the 8-ball already.  Dammit!   >:D

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: NFLD Sapper on January 29, 2009, 23:37:09
So...you're saying I am behind the 8-ball already.  Dammit!   >:D



Nah you got the grandfather clause......
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 29, 2009, 23:41:06
That won't matter on BAC!  8)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Kenyan on April 24, 2009, 14:25:20
sorry for bump.

Got "the" call yesterday, and for the first time in this whole process I was told that the initial contract length was 5 years, not 3 years. Which I guess makes sense due to the large amount of training, but I thought that was a bit weak that I only learned that on the phone. Of course I said yes though. Start BMQ June 8th, so hopefully I'll be able to go right to Winnipeg for the start of occupational training right away, without having to sit around for too long.

Anyways, now that I know I have a start date, I'm kicking my running and other stuff into high gear.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on April 24, 2009, 15:48:31
sorry for bump.

Got "the" call yesterday, and for the first time in this whole process I was told that the initial contract length was 5 years, not 3 years. Which I guess makes sense due to the large amount of training, but I thought that was a bit weak that I only learned that on the phone. Of course I said yes though. Start BMQ June 8th, so hopefully I'll be able to go right to Winnipeg for the start of occupational training right away, without having to sit around for too long.

Anyways, now that I know I have a start date, I'm kicking my running and other stuff into high gear.

Get your math up to speed as well. First AES Op QL3 starts around Aug 17th.

Good luck.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: lateralus on May 07, 2009, 17:47:11
The other day i came across a thread which had some AES OP pictures (in flight) in it.  I haven't been able to find this thread again and my searches haven't come up with anything.  The AES OP in said pictures had a skull or something like that on his helmet i believe.  Anyone know where that thread is? Been driving me nuts the last few days.  I thought maybe i had seen them on aesoplounge.com but haven't found anything there either.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HFXCrow on May 30, 2009, 18:33:17
Whats up with no AESOP's being the 183/279 starting at CFNOS on Monday?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: CallOfDuty on June 02, 2009, 14:04:56
  Hello AESops...I have a question.  When you get up there and are airborne, is there any opportunity for stretching your legs, or a bit of a walkaround at all?  I find sitting for extended periods of time, without releif, is very hard on me.
   Also, which area of the job do people tend to desire?  Aurora, or helicopter?
Thanks all
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: benny88 on June 02, 2009, 14:53:34
The other day i came across a thread which had some AES OP pictures (in flight) in it.  I haven't been able to find this thread again and my searches haven't come up with anything.  The AES OP in said pictures had a skull or something like that on his helmet i believe.  Anyone know where that thread is? Been driving me nuts the last few days.  I thought maybe i had seen them on aesoplounge.com but haven't found anything there either.

I think this is an FE vice an AES OP, but I think this is the thread you're talking about.  (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,85037.0.html)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: lateralus on July 03, 2009, 02:11:48
Benny...Yes that would be what i was looking for. Thanks!

Quick question here. Hopefully someone can answer it. I'm going for my medical and interview next week.  Does an aircrew medical come later on?  My understanding was that i would need to fast before this medical for the blood work.  I wasn't told this on the phone when my appointments were made though.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on July 03, 2009, 10:32:23
You must pass a base-level aircrew medical and be declared "fit aircrew" by DRDC Toronto before you can be accepted for training.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: lateralus on July 03, 2009, 13:04:10
Just to clarify..........before BMQ training or the MOC training?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 03, 2009, 14:55:13
You should really call the CFRC to clarify what you are doing.  The air crew medical Part I and II is more involved then the "basic" medical.  It should include a cyclo eye exam, blood work and a fairly detailed Part II with a Flight Surgeon.  This is not something they do at the CFRC as far as I know, but you should clarify with the CFRC you are dealing with.

As CDN Aviator said, you must do the air crew medical.  Then your file will be sent to DRDC and gone over by staff at the AUMB (Aerospace Underwater Medical Board) and if you are good to go, they will award you a AF 2 - Fit AES Op medical catagory for your AF.

Now, I am going to assume that you Direct Entry folks are the same as us remuster folks, and you MUST have an Air Factor of 2 - Fit AES Op to be offered a position in the AES Op MOC.  If that is true, you will be required to do all the air crew medical "stuff" before being offered a position/before BMQ.

But again, I urge you to contact your CFRC and ask them, as some of the stuff with the Direct Entry process is different from those of us who remustered from other trades.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: lateralus on July 03, 2009, 17:03:20
Eye...thanks for that info.  I did call and was told they would still be doing the basic medical and i guess the aircrew at a date TBD....but they will tell me more at my medical/interview on monday. Obviously that has to happen before it goes before the selection board.  We'll see how it goes...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 03, 2009, 17:17:37
Good luck. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on November 28, 2009, 20:30:25
Hey all. I hope someday, I will be able to say, I am a AESop! I am currently on the Merit list for NESop, and am very excited to get back in to the forces. Oh, and I have made my desire to re-muster after I am 5s' qualified clear to the recruitment section.

I was wondering if anyone knew what transferable skills gained by the NESop trade are to the AESop field. I also want to know if there are any courses that anyone could recommend that would make me stand out in the competition for AESop positions in the future.

Also, what is it looking like for the CH148s? Is there still the standard compliment of one AESop?

Thanks so much and hope to see you on the flight deck of a ship someday!

Will. ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on November 29, 2009, 02:29:39
Why not apply for AES Op right now? 

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on November 29, 2009, 06:59:50
Oh, and I have made my desire to re-muster after I am 5s' qualified clear to the recruitment section.



the recruiters haven't mentioned that you can apply directly to aes op now?

are you an ex nesop?  i'd think that if you are, you already have a few of those transferable skills.  call them back and ask about direct entry to aes op...

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 29, 2009, 07:58:39
I was wondering if anyone knew what transferable skills gained by the NESop trade are to the AESop field. I also want to know if there are any courses that anyone could recommend that would make me stand out in the competition for AESop positions in the future.

No idea on the NES Op side of the house, but being a strong performer with a good learning apptitude and good PERs will all help.  Part of the OT application includes an assessment on you filled out by your supervisor, so they get to weigh in on how you perform too.  It all starts long before your actual application.

Quote
Also, what is it looking like for the CH148s? Is there still the standard compliment of one AES Op?

Yes.  However, the equipment is going to be *slighty* different from that on the SeaKing.   ;D

Quote
Thanks so much and hope to see you on the flight deck of a ship someday!

Will. ;D

Like already mentioned, did you ask about Direct Entry into the AES Op trade?  It might be closed until 01 Apr 2010, but if AES Op is what you REALLY want to do, it might be worth your wait for a few months.  The first Direct Entry Privates just went thru the AES Op QL3 course (BAQC) and graduated recently in Winnipeg to move on to the QL5 course (IAQC).  Each course now will (likely) have a mix of remuster and direct entry folks on it.  THe next BAQC has 6 OTs and 4 Direct Entry Privates.  Great time to get into trade IMO.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HFXCrow on November 29, 2009, 09:35:30
NESOP and AESOP are 2nd cousins in regards to transferable skills.
The only piece of advice I can give for both, is that your math skills have to be closed up.

If you fall behind in your academics, the slogan nobody gets left behind unfortunately does not apply.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on November 29, 2009, 21:03:56
Hey folks. Thanks for the feed back! I have been made aware that AESop is now offered for direct entry, however, I do not have the math skills to be considered at this time. I don't want to say that I am settling for NESop, because I am not. I truly believe that for the bare minimum, I will be happy for my first contract. I believe it is still 4 years, is it not? Anyways, like I said, NESop is not a fall back plan, but rather my own entry plan. IMO, I will have a hard time making the direct entry cut for 2010 based on my math skills, so I am going to enjoy my stint in the Navy, learn all that I can about the equipment and procedures of being an operator, and enjoy the travel. I will also learn as much as I can from the AESops on board. It's always nice to hear it from the horses mouth, as they say. I will also use what little free time I get and upgrade my math to a level that is well above the minimum requirements. As Crow mentioned, this will have to be something that I do rather quickly, as it is vital to both trades.

Sky Eye, thanks for the sound advise. I am not a kiss ***, but I do work my bag off when tasks are handed out. I hope that will suffice on my PER's

Dolphin and Trigger, I was aware, but I appreciate the heads up.

I have always loved the ocean and believe that it will be a great time, but like I said, my heart is in the sky. I think that doing all of the above mentioned will help prepare me for life as a AESop. Especially if I get posted as part of an air detachment on a ship! All I want to do at this point in my life is get in ASAP. I am 25 now, so I figure that I have plenty of time ahead to change my career plan. Thanks again all.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HFXCrow on December 01, 2009, 17:16:31
As a NESOP your math skills need to be at the same level as an AESOP.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on December 02, 2009, 02:31:42
They do, but the basic requirements for entry to NESop do not require the same level of math that AESop does. I was told that this is due to the fact that there are so few people applying for NESop vs. AESop, so in order to attract more applicants, they dropped the standard. And my mathematic abilities are at an acceptable level, just not on paper yet. Something that I will remedy ASAP.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 02, 2009, 08:59:53
I don't know about NES Op, I don't believe they "dropped the standard as not enough people were applying".  However, recently (in the past year, lets say) the CFAT score requirements for AES Op were adjusted as part of the Direct Entry 3 year trial program.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HFXCrow on December 02, 2009, 17:40:48
The NESOP trade has a Grade 10 requirement on the recruiting engraph unfortunately this misleading based on the Math 1030 package completion in DP1.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on December 02, 2009, 22:07:20
I don't know about NES Op, I don't believe they "dropped the standard as not enough people were applying".  However, recently (in the past year, lets say) the CFAT score requirements for AES Op were adjusted as part of the Direct Entry 3 year trial program.

I would say that this explanation makes more sense. This just raises another question for me to take to the recruiting office however. Perhaps one of you fine members could grace me with the answer first. Can the CFAT results be used to determine a candidates suitability in lieu of the education requirements, and can these results be equal as the actual requirements?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on December 02, 2009, 22:11:41
The NESOP trade has a Grade 10 requirement on the recruiting engraph unfortunately this misleading based on the Math 1030 package completion in DP1.

Hey Crow, I am just wondering what the Math 1030 is equal to in the civi world. Grade 11, 12? Also, as I was asking in my last post about the CFAT, could this course be used to satisfy the educational requirements of the CF?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on December 02, 2009, 22:17:42
Oh, I was also wondering if there are going to be any Chinook variations that will require AESops.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on December 02, 2009, 22:27:18
Can the CFAT results be used to determine a candidates suitability in lieu of the education requirements,

For AES Op..........NO !!
You must meet both the required CFAT score and the minimum educational requirement.

Period.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on December 02, 2009, 22:29:27
Figured that was the case.... :(
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Lard of the Dance on December 15, 2009, 16:21:33
NESOP and AESOP are 2nd cousins in regards to transferable skills.
The only piece of advice I can give for both, is that your math skills have to be closed up.

If you fall behind in your academics, the slogan nobody gets left behind unfortunately does not apply.

  UMMM?.............NO!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on December 15, 2009, 20:54:56
  UMMM?.............NO!

To which part?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Lard of the Dance on December 15, 2009, 22:36:17
To which part?

To all.  Will elaborate more when I have more time. Cheers.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Loachman on December 15, 2009, 23:32:08
Oh, I was also wondering if there are going to be any Chinook variations that will require AESops.

No.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on December 16, 2009, 20:39:37
No.

Thanks :salute:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Lard of the Dance on December 17, 2009, 14:56:15
NESOP and AESOP are 2nd cousins in regards to transferable skills.
The only piece of advice I can give for both, is that your math skills have to be closed up.

If you fall behind in your academics, the slogan nobody gets left behind unfortunately does not apply.

I'll elaborate now. I strongly disagree with the idea that AES ops are kin to NESOPs, not meant to offend. The idea that people get left behind is not quite accurate. BAC is not Mad Max at the Thunder Dome, "two men enter, one man leaves"!  8 "candidates" start the course, and the 2 things that will earn a set of wings for your chest are, get ready for this, PERSONAL DRIVE and TEAM WORK. And by team work, I mean the entire course working together in the lounge to ensure that every candidate is on the same level, or as close as possible. If you are applying, take note of this advice and the advice of AES ops. Cheers, and if you have any questions at all about the trade then fire away, there are several AES ops on this forum.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on December 17, 2009, 22:59:51
Mad Max at the Thunder Dome sounds pretty close to what I experienced at CFANS, 8 entered and 4 limped out.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: robbiewho? on December 18, 2009, 01:53:03
Quick question since this is the main AESOp forum:

I read earlier (2004 post) that trig and some algebra was requiered to be a successful AESOp on course. However when I wrote my CFAT I qualified for the trade and am guessing that is based on my spacial analysis score. However I have my grade 12 Graduate math which did not include trig.

Am I going to struggle trying to get through this course based on the math?

Don't hold back because I would like to know as math is not my forte
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on December 18, 2009, 02:19:52
Am I going to struggle trying to get through this course based on the math?



The math on course has changed over time. it is not like it was when i went through. That being said here it is :

Do you have the minimum grade 12 education with grade 10 academic math ?

Theres a reason why we ask for this as a minimum and not grade 12 trig......
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: robbiewho? on December 18, 2009, 11:12:20
I do not have Academic Grade 10 Math, just the graduate level. However my recruiter told me that I met the minimums for AESOp and I double checked with him stating that I only had the graduate course. He dissapeared for a few minutes to check and he confirmed I met the minimums.

What would a math question look like on course?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on December 18, 2009, 12:00:49
In my previous post, I was going to mention something regarding the NESOP vs AES Op similarities.  I don't think I am stretching it any when I say that every trade in the Naval Ops Room has something that ties into the AES Op trade.  NCIOP, SONAR OP (or whatever they are called this week) and NES Op's all perform jobs on the ship that are similar to the jobs performed by an AES Op.

That being said, and I know its been said before, having one of those trades as a background will not make your time at 1 CFFTS or as an AES Op any easier.  Nearly every trade has some skill that is transferable to the AES Op community, for example I damn near needed a Army - Air Force pocket translator (I can hear my Sgt talking, but he isn't making any sense) while doing a recent overland mission, that lingo isn't something you learn in the Navy.

 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: HFXCrow on December 18, 2009, 12:40:31
I said NESOP and AESOP were 2nd cousins  in my post.  The trades have some similarities and my focus of the post was on the 1030 Math Package. (which you may have to do as an AESOP somewhere down the line)

this is directed to the 22 year old lad with "Boo Coo" experience.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on March 09, 2010, 21:14:48
Nice Crow.  ;)

Thanks everyone for all the insight and shared experiences. To give an update on my status, I have accepted a position as NES OP, and will re-do BMQ starting on the 15th of March, since it has been more than 5 years since I did it last. I am really excited on getting back in and look forward to being on ship. I hope that the air crew there will be able to aid me in my pursuit of the AES OP trade. Thanks again for the help fellas!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on April 02, 2010, 08:56:05
can a real aes op in the know confirm something for me? 

i have been trying my damnedest to get an ot over for a few years now. in fact, this year, i was practically convinced that it was happening.  (cotp i might add)  i am aware that over the last three weeks or so, offers started going out to applicants.  i didn't get one and i really don't think one's coming now.  and i haven't recieved a notice of non selection either, so far. i believe any number of reasons could have prevented it, but i have a hard time coming to grips with this particular situation, everything considered, with the research i've been doing:

i posed a question regarding ot's in the occupation transfer thread a couple months back.  my own trade is pretty hard up and i wanted to know where and when the two trades come together and let a member make a transfer.  the answer i got was that they, the powers that be, meet along about the same time and give the yay or nay.  that sounds believable enough.

a friend of my spouse's family, one who has an inside track so to speak, or the family likes to tell me anyhow, made a general inquiry just to see where things stood with me.  he got an answer that the aes op trade has cut back on their intake numbers this year in total and that is the reason i missed out.  and he believed that my current trade had "let me go". i go on aesoplounge.com and here all the time and in three years+ worth of reading, i've seen nothing but the opposite.  with the de/ct trial, uav, the new mh, the improved lrp a/c complete with new opportunities in the aso seats, etc etc, it just sounds too hard to believe, and in fact, there's seemingly more successful people this year than the last few posting on the lounge, that they made it, also opposite to this story.

so the question: did the aes op mos decide to cut back on their intake this year in any way?  i know we just passed the fy changeover which of course influences numbers plus or minus for new members but would this timing have affected a decision for occupation transfer(a decision likely made last year?)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: George Wallace on April 02, 2010, 10:18:29
I think your "Shift Key" is broken.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Loachman on April 02, 2010, 11:27:54
Seriously, please capitalize properly. Your post is difficult and unpleasant to read. I stopped part way through.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Oh No a Canadian on January 05, 2011, 03:08:51
If one would prefer to be posted on the west coast would that be given consideration?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 05, 2011, 10:40:59
If one would prefer to be posted on the west coast would that be given consideration?

Yes but not much consideration. You also have to understand that even if you get posted to the West coast, you will be moving somewhere else in a few short years. Postings are short and frequent.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: niceasdrhuxtable on January 05, 2011, 13:46:42
If one would prefer to be posted on the west coast would that be given consideration?

It's generally easier to stay on the East coast for an extended duration than it is in the West. It's very much possible that you could receive a West coast posting but rather unlikely you'd spend more than a single posting there consecutively.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Oh No a Canadian on January 05, 2011, 14:42:09
Thanks to both of you, not something I am going to base my decision off of just something that some up while to talking to family about it. If all goes as planned I will be taking the 5 min drive to CFRC Vancouver April 2012.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ditch on January 11, 2011, 02:07:19
When you seriously consider joining you should accept that you will never live close to home ever again. If you get lucky you might get posted back to your home province once for a four year tour.  I left the greater Toronto area in 1999 and haven't been back.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on January 11, 2011, 02:20:03
Hopefully that's not the case, at least for this trade, anyway. I grew up in Greenwood and have lived in Halifax pretty much since 94. If I ever make it through in the trade I'd hope I'd be able to come back home here for a little longer than 4 years. Maybe I better plan for the opposite.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 11, 2011, 10:53:21
Hopefully that's not the case, at least for this trade, anyway.

You will find that postings come hard and fast. For the trade to remain healthy, a steady stream of new folks is needed. That means that (relative) old farts like me have to leave the line units and take our experience to other jobs. All this is in line with AF objectives of having short first tours. Greenwood and Shearwater are more prone to longer stays as there are more possible postings but, you can get caught in the "vortex" and remain at those bases for a longer time than you would like. One has to be careful what they wish. Either way, if you wish to progress in the MOS, you will move.........

 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on January 21, 2011, 02:20:23
Hey guys. I have a few questions that I would like answered, if you could. I am just coming the end of my NES Op 3's and am definatly wanting to go AES Op (this has always been the plan). I excelled in the EM Theory and truly enjoy using all the sensor equipment that is carried by the Halifax class ships, so I know that I will love the trade change. I would like to know what the best method of making it into the trade might be. I was considering a COTP route, but I am not sure of the criteria for such a move. I also contemplated a VR followed by an application for the trade, but I am not confident in my civi qualifications for the math and science levels achieved in HS. What do you think I should do? Before anyone suggests asking my bosses, I would rather not step on any toes if possible.

On a further, and less important note, my family and I are from, and currently posted to, the west coast. What is the probability of the 407 for a first posting?

Thanks for the intel.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on January 21, 2011, 02:52:37
As of the APS ( this summer), the MOS is full. That , IMHO, will lead to reduced intakes to cover for attrition.

COTP is rank of Cpl/LS with 48 Months of service.

There is no "best way" to get into the trade.

As far as a posting to 407 goes, it is one of many postings where we send new AES Ops and you are as likely to be sent to anyone of them. We are now sending fresh gradutes to ground jobs directly after graduations, so those getting a flying tour right off the bat should consider themselves lucky.

That being said, all are AES Op jobs and require motivated and competent individuals.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: willellis on February 19, 2011, 22:03:10
As of the APS ( this summer), the MOS is full. That , IMHO, will lead to reduced intakes to cover for attrition.

The DWAN still shows you are in the red? I am new so can you explain

COTP is rank of Cpl/LS with 48 Months of service.

Cool, thanks.

There is no "best way" to get into the trade.

As far as a posting to 407 goes, it is one of many postings where we send new AES Ops and you are as likely to be sent to anyone of them. We are now sending fresh gradutes to ground jobs directly after graduations, so those getting a flying tour right off the bat should consider themselves lucky.

What do you mean by ground jobs?

That being said, all are AES Op jobs and require motivated and competent individuals.


Thanks for the insight. Taker' easy.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: lonnieg3 on March 07, 2011, 23:00:59
Hello everyone,

I've noticed that Aesop is now accepting recruits off the street. joy lol
So how is the ranking system going to work with those recruits? considering it use to be CPL's only through VOT.

Thanks

L.G

former Artillery 021, AVS 526 and now UTPNCM cadet in halifax.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 08, 2011, 06:31:05
So how is the ranking system going to work with those recruits?


It works just like every other trade in the CF.

Pretty simple.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: lonnieg3 on March 26, 2011, 17:17:28

It works just like every other trade in the CF.

Pretty simple.

That's a pretty helpful answer. You must work at a recruiting centre!
So by "every trade in CF" do you mean MP's and musicians as well? Since they get their CPL's after basic, or Pharmacists and Doctor's who usually go right to Captain and Major?.... but I'm sure you knew that. ;)

 Can someone other then this guy clarify whether the recruits off the street going into the AesOP trade are going to be promoted to CPL after basic or their QL3's? Do they get promoted faster like the guys going through a VOT? or like the first reply, do they simply move up the chain as per usual?

Thank you to whoever properly answers this :)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: SeaKingTacco on March 26, 2011, 17:29:42
That's a pretty helpful answer. You must work at a recruiting centre!
So by "every trade in CF" do you mean MP's and musicians as well? Since they get their CPL's after basic, or Pharmacists and Doctor's who usually go right to Captain and Major?.... but I'm sure you knew that. ;)

 Can someone other then this guy clarify whether the recruits off the street going into the AesOP trade are going to be promoted to CPL after basic or their QL3's? Do they get promoted faster like the guys going through a VOT? or like the first reply, do they simply move up the chain as per usual?

Thank you to whoever properly answers this :)

Sigh.  Like Cdn Aviator said- it works like every other trade in the CF.  As a direct entry candidate, once recruited, you will attend BMQ, then the Basic ASEOP Course.  If you pass, you get your wings and will be posted to a Sqn.  You will attend an Operational Training Unit to get qualified for your operational role.  You will be promoted to Cpl when you have the time in the CF (48 months? I'm working off memory) just like everyone else.  You will fly as a "no hook" Private, for at least some of your career.

However, since last time I looked AESOP was full, the point is moot, for now. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 26, 2011, 17:35:28

 Can someone other then this guy clarify whether the recruits off the street going into the AesOP trade are going to be promoted to CPL after basic or their QL3's?

They do not get promoted after course. They are privates for 3-4 years. The VOT are CPLs and stay there unless they earn their promotion to MCpl by way of merit and nothing else, no more automatic promotions.

You must work at a recruiting centre!

No, i'm a AES Op senior NCO in an operational LRP squadron.

Anymore BS comments sunshine ?

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on March 27, 2011, 00:03:42
Sometimes I think questions are better answered in person, the last few posts would be much more entertaining had they occurred face to face.  :)

CDN Aviator is by far the most knowledgeable guy on the subject (on this board).
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: SeaKingTacco on March 27, 2011, 00:27:26
Sometimes I think questions are better answered in person, the last few posts would be much more entertaining had they occurred face to face.  :)

CDN Aviator is by far the most knowledgeable guy on the subject (on this board).

Hey- what am I- chopped liver?  I was only your Flight Commander for what- 8 months?  :)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on March 27, 2011, 11:14:56
It's PER season...  I have to find those extra points somewhere.  :)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 27, 2011, 11:20:09
It's PER season...  I have to find those extra points somewhere.  :)

I'm not writting yours  ;D

Come to think of it, i escaped PER season.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: nickanick on May 31, 2011, 04:58:32
Does AESOp get spec pay?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on May 31, 2011, 07:14:44
yes, in due time, with all the usual prerequisites
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: nickanick on September 21, 2011, 14:39:42
Can I ask, what are the trades that can be OT to AESop? Does it have to be another NCM air force trade?
Or it can either be the army or navy NCM position?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on September 21, 2011, 14:48:41
It can be any trade, and it doesnt matter which you're coming from, army navy or airforce.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: nickanick on September 21, 2011, 14:56:16
It can be any trade, and it doesnt matter which you're coming from, army navy or airforce.

Thank you for your immediate reply. But would trades like, e.g. AVN tech, NES op, have an advantage
in the merit list during the OT? Since they have a higher knowledge and skill about airframes or senor equipment
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: trigger on September 21, 2011, 15:02:09
I doubt it. From what I gather, people with all sorts of backgrounds bring all sorts of skills to the table. Airframe knowledge can't hurt, but it's likely not what will get you selected, it's more your supervisors review of your performance, and your own input(how your interview goes--that covers everything within your military career so far as well as some things they ask you about yourself)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on September 21, 2011, 15:54:43
It does not matter what trade you come from. I came from a combat arms trade. There's no trade that will give you an advantage or special knowledge.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: nickanick on September 28, 2011, 04:41:04
Does anyone has the minimum requirement for direct entry AESop?
Will having a undergraduate degree increase one's chance of getting in?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on September 28, 2011, 07:19:13
Does anyone has the minimum requirement for direct entry AESop?

Grade 12 with grade 10 academic math and there is also a cut-off score on the CFAT.

Quote
Will having a undergraduate degree increase one's chance of getting in?

Maybe.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Duke878 on November 15, 2011, 13:12:28
I'm currently an Army Reserve NCM MCpl that is currently deployed to Afghanistan. I'm looking at my options when I get home and thinking of OT-ing to the AES Op trade. I've done a bit of research and it look like an amazing but highly desired and competitive trade. For those already in the trade and experienced for a few years, I have a few questions for you:

1) Can you walk me step by step on the courses, duration and location that a person would go thru after BMQ to be a qual'd AES Op and sent to an Operational Sqn.

2) What are the negatives of this trade?

3) For posting and platform preferences, how much is accommodated?

4) Are there opportunities to deploy outside of Canada on Operations, or is this usually a domestic/sovereignty trade?

5) On an average daily basis, are you busy with your trade, or are you sitting around waiting for something to happen?

6) When it comes to who is ground crew, and who is air crew, how is that decided? Is that merit and seniority, or just a rotation?

Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on November 15, 2011, 13:54:36
I will try to answer a few questions.

6) When it comes to who is ground crew, and who is air crew, how is that decided? Is that merit and seniority, or just a rotation?

This is accomplished with a simple measurement, those who are "short changed" are relgated to the ground crew, and those "gifted" personnel are sent to the air.    AES Op's are always considered Aircrew, there are a few postings where you could be chained to a desk, but these usually happen later in your career, you can expect your first posting to be to an operational sqn.

As for preference, you can ask for a particular airframe, but like all other trades in the CF, you are sent where you are needed.

Opportunities to deploy are abundant, I know around here (407 Sqn), there is always something going on.  There always seems to be an aircraft away doing something.

Average work day consists of  training, there is always something to read, learn, and teach.  This trade is not for lazy individuals who lack drive.

Negatives of the trade, I can't really think of any.   (Greenwood comes to mind though....)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 15, 2011, 14:07:14

how much is accommodated?

None.

Quote
4) Are there opportunities to deploy outside of Canada on Operations, 

I didnt spend allot of time in Canada during my time on Sqn. Dolphin_Hunter can attest to that !!


Quote
6) When it comes to who is ground crew, and who is air crew, how is that decided?

I don't understand what you are talking about !
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on November 15, 2011, 14:18:06
I didnt spend allot of time in Canada during my time on Sqn. Dolphin_Hunter can attest to that !!

We worked together?

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 15, 2011, 14:19:46
We worked together?

You didn't notice because i was never there  ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Duke878 on November 18, 2011, 11:48:08
Ive read on afew threads regarding AES Ops, saying "too bad you got selected for MH" Whats the problem with MH vs LRP? is it the less desired side of the trade?

Also with the new Cyclones coming out (soon-ish), will there be more opportunites for new guys DE or transfering into the trade to get those qualifications?

According to the CF recruiting video, the AES Ops interviewed say that you will be dually trained  on both platforms. This true? Can someone check out the video and HONESTLY tell me what is misleading or inaccurate about it? 

Many thanks!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 18, 2011, 12:17:10
is it the less desired side of the trade?

No. Just some good natured trash talk thats all.

Quote
Also with the new Cyclones coming out (soon-ish), will there be more opportunites for new guys DE or transfering into the trade to get those qualifications?

There is nothing to increase. You get qualified Cyclone if posted to a unit that flies Cyclone. Thats it.

Quote
According to the CF recruiting video, the AES Ops interviewed say that you will be dually trained  on both platforms. This true?

Some guys do LRP and MH, some guys do only LRP or MH. Thats only a factor of where the postings and career progression falls. Also, there is more to the trade than just LRP and MH thus there are other avenues of career progression. You will certainly not fly both MH and LRP at the same time. If you are flying, its either the CP-140 or the CH-124/148...........you will not be qualified on both at the same time and jump back and forth from one day to the next. You may end up flying both during a career but you could olso fly only one and branch out in other areas of the trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Duke878 on November 23, 2011, 03:56:14
Just to clarify, a newly qual'd AES Op would be posted on the West Coast or East Coast for the first postings or so, correct? The Operators from the recruiting video ustve been instructors at the school.. right?

Also, how long are postings and what are secondary tasks or jobs for an AES Op?

Thanks again for answering my many questions. Esp CDN Aviator
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on November 23, 2011, 06:07:19
Just to clarify, a newly qual'd AES Op would be posted on the West Coast or East Coast for the first postings or so, correct?

Typically, new graduates have posted to either coasts. Most into flying jobs but a few went to ground tours initially as the trade grew (this is not ideal but the jobs need to be done and are important). Few stayed at the school to serve as instructor.

Quote
Also, how long are postings

Around 3-4 years but it varies greatly these days.

Quote
and what are secondary tasks or jobs for an AES Op?

This varies from unit to unit.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Potential CF Member on December 14, 2011, 00:07:17
Quick Question: Exactly how mathematical is being an AESOp when compared to an ACSO? I'm not the strongest in the majority of mathematics (Trigonometry is my strong-point).
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Duke878 on February 05, 2012, 01:28:37
For postings, you said they are 3-4 years in length. Does that mean every time you get a new posting, you have to move around?

For a spouse with a career (teacher) is there any assistance from MFRC in helping to get a job or employment in her field?

For new guys entering an operational wing, what's the soonest you could expect to be deployed?

Thanks for the info again!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on February 05, 2012, 09:07:16
For postings, you said they are 3-4 years in length. Does that mean every time you get a new posting, you have to move around?

Depends where you end up. It could be 3-4 years them off to a new base or, just a change of unit on the same base every few years. If you in Greenwood for example, you can spend years just going from one unit to the other.

That being said, moving around the country every 3-4 years is a reality.

Quote
For a spouse with a career (teacher) is there any assistance from MFRC in helping to get a job or employment in her field?

Not much, if any.

Quote
what's the soonest you could expect to be deployed?


Could be right away, could be any time. Theres no answer to that.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Duke878 on February 05, 2012, 11:37:06
I know you're pretty much at the whim of the air force and you go where you are needed, but is there a way to stay in one place at a time for more than 4 years? Like im sure the wing doesn't do a whole change of crews every four years.  I mean, the Air Force doesn't move you from one end of the country to the other every 4 years do they?

Also, are you able to deny deployments? I know some love it but you can't be deployed allll the rime, right?

Do you know anyone that used to be in the trade for 5-10 years, released, and have done something similar civy side?

Thanks for your info and patience!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on February 05, 2012, 11:45:10
  I mean, the Air Force doesn't move you from one end of the country to the other every 4 years do they?

....and everything in between. Like i told you, in some places (like Greenwood and Shearwater) it is easier to stay longer as there are more units you can get moved around to. In Comox and Victoria, the places are limited so you have to move to other bases for career progression.

Quote
Also, are you able to deny deployments?

WTF ???

If you get posted to Sea Kings and refuse to sail on deployment, you career will be short. If you go to Aurora's and refuse to deploy, your career will be short.

Quote
Do you know anyone that used to be in the trade for 5-10 years, released, and have done something similar civy side?

Most that have moved on to similar civilian employment had much more time in the trade than that.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 05, 2012, 12:04:49
I know you're pretty much at the whim of the air force and you go where you are needed, but is there a way to stay in one place at a time for more than 4 years? Like im sure the wing doesn't do a whole change of crews every four years.  I mean, the Air Force doesn't move you from one end of the country to the other every 4 years do they?

You're subunit is a Sqn, not a Wing.

I'll give you a few examples to add to what CdnAviator has said twice.  Hopefully they help you understand.

I know of a few folks that were posted to 443 Sqn (Victoria, BC) after Wings grad in Winnipeg, and then went on OTU at 406 Sqn (Shearwater NS) in 2009/2010, who then returned to Vic after OTU.  Last summer  they were posted from Victoria BC to 406 in Shearwater NS.  Yep, clear across the country.  And that was less than 3 years.  So you can see that some folks:

- went away to Wpg (6 months), then posted to Victoria BC
- sent to NS for course (6+months)
- back to Vic, into a Sqn position (that means on a HelAirDet and sailing when the ship does)
- then posted back to NS, in a relatively short timeframe.

Thats alot of time away from home, as your family doesn't follow you around until after you finished Winnipeg, and if you are posted West Coast, well you end up 6+months East Coast for your operational trg (no they don't get to go with you).  Then you go back West and could be deployed, well when they tell you that you are going.

Like Cdn Aviator said, it could depend alot on your initial posting.  The Operational Trg Sqn's are both located in NS (Shearwater for Maritime Helicopter, Greenwood for Long Range Patrol).  Each of those locations also have operational Sqn's, so it is possible if you are posted to Shearwater or Greenwood that you could go from an operational Sqn to a Trg Sqn for your "2nd posting".  In that situation, you wouldn't have a geographical move involved with the posting.  But there is no guaruntee you would get that, you could find yourself headed West for 2nd posting, or Winnipeg, Ottawa, etc.

I know of one person who was posted from BC to NS, and while on the first part of the road move from BC, got a call and was told his posting was changed to a 3rd location, and he stopped 'somewhere in between the 2'.

Don't bet on anything for certain, other than you WILL be posted and moving at some point.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on February 05, 2012, 12:19:50
After my wings course i was posted to one base, moved there and 6 months later was posted again, to the opposite end of the country. i managed 6 years at that posting but the word "posting" had been coming up for the last 3 and didn't happen for a few operational and a few personal reasons. I will be in my current billet for 3 years and expect to move again after that time.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Duke878 on February 05, 2012, 12:28:32
^^^

Firstly I appreciate alot the info you and Cdn Aviator has given me. If I CT'd to this trade in the RCAF, I'm just trying to look at all aspects of this career choice. Pros, cons and everything in between. One of the biggest thing I'm trying to consider in this decision is the affect on my partner, her career and a possible family.  How does one manage?

As an army reservist, the biggest reg force exposure I have is my reg force counterparts. If they play their cards right, 85% of their career is at their regiment/battalion in the same city/location. So moving around alot is quite the opposite to what my impression would be.

In regards to deployments, I'm currently Finishing up My first and don't really want to deploy for half of my military career. But I guess it would be the nature of the beast. Don't get me wrong, I like deployments and it's one of the most important jobs in the CF. I'm just trying to think of the affect on my possible future family.

Thanks
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on February 05, 2012, 12:32:30
2011 saw me do the Following :

OP CARIBBE
A northern patrol
OP MOBILE
EX PANAMAX
OP CARIBBE.......again

That was all before posting season.

I was the only one qualified available so.............just imagine what would have happened if i had refused to go.

OP MOBILE......i was on the high readiness crew. We got zero notice to move. There was no saying " well...that doesn't work for me".

If you have an issue with being gone frequently, you're better off in some other trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ditch on February 05, 2012, 13:06:21
I will be in my current billet for 3 years and expect to move again after that time.
Yup - that coincides nicely with the <move> to the former Nortel campus... :-)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on February 05, 2012, 13:07:56
Yup - that coincides nicely with the <move> to the former Nortel campus... :-)

Nice try.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ditch on February 05, 2012, 13:09:08
If you have an issue with being gone frequently, you're better off in some other trade.
The same can be said for most trades in the RCAF.  We move every 3-4 years and can expect no-notice deployments to appear overnight.

There are a lucky few who have remained sheltered in places such as Winnipeg, Greenwood, Halifax and Trenton.  They're the ones who complain the loudest when they are faced with the reality that the rest of us experience every 3-4 years.  A similar thing is happening right now in Ottawa with CANSOFCOM being told to get ready to move south - they're whining the loudest.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hangingout on February 05, 2012, 14:08:03
Sounds like an awesome trade.  Hope I get an Offer in the next month or so.  Being away frequently is no change from what I do now.  It will just be a change from pounding the ground for the last 15yrs to flying  ,,,cant wait :)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Duke878 on February 07, 2012, 04:04:29
Sounds like an awesome trade.  Hope I get an Offer in the next month or so.  Being away frequently is no change from what I do now.  It will just be a change from pounding the ground for the last 15yrs to flying  ,,,cant wait :)

What's your situation? Going from reg force Inf to AES Op? How long was the OT/CT?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hangingout on February 07, 2012, 08:12:07
Yes Inf to Aes Op, OT has been in since sept ish.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Duke878 on February 07, 2012, 09:24:01
Yes Inf to Aes Op, OT has been in since sept ish.

Awesome! Did they give you an estimate how long the wait would be? Also how many positions they are accepting per/that year?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hangingout on February 08, 2012, 00:12:16
not really an estimate, they will go through a list and fill the open spots...if the spots fill up before they get to my name i just keep waiting i guess. I think there was 20 open for aes op but could be wrong
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Get Nautical on March 10, 2012, 03:16:05
Any word on when the AESOP trade might be open to those not doing an OT and are currently civillians/sup res?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on March 10, 2012, 09:35:20
Any word on when the AESOP trade might be open to those not doing an OT and are currently civillians/sup res?

Not anytime soon, last i heard.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hangingout on June 20, 2012, 11:28:33
Good Day all, I have recently received my OT to Aes Op effective 13 July, Just wondering if anybody has received any course loading messages or course dates yet?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on June 20, 2012, 11:47:10
Congrats, and welcome to the trade, be patient as the dates will get to you.

Enjoy your "Slump!"

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hangingout on June 20, 2012, 11:54:46
I am enjoying this slump very well, and feeling very excited with a few weeks leave starting on the weekend until i go to BTL.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: PeterL on August 02, 2012, 23:17:24
Just discovered this trade and as someone who has had a long love of aviation, it's pretty damn appealing.

Is it possible for an AESOp to move onto pilot at some point later in his/her career with some academic upgrading?

Thanks.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: MikeL on August 03, 2012, 08:38:39
PeterL,  you can apply for an OT to Pilot - different programs available if you do not have a university degree.  But like anything else,  it may not work out for you. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: PeterL on August 03, 2012, 10:30:42
PeterL,  you can apply for an OT to Pilot - different programs available if you do not have a university degree.  But like anything else,  it may not work out for you.

Thanks for the speedy response. You'll have to excuse my ignorance of CF nomenclature what but does OT stand for?

Is it possible to apply for air crew from any other trade? The reason I ask is that AESOp is closed at the moment
 and I am pondering entering as an AVN Tech or similar to reduce my downtime.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: MikeL on August 03, 2012, 10:57:09
OT is Occupational Transfer,  it means changing your trade.  You can request an OT to any trade,  does not matter what your current trade is.  What matters is you meet the pre requirements for that trade,  there is openings and your current trade will let you out and any other factors.


Don't join the CF in any trade just so you can get in faster and think you can change trades once in,  as you may end up stuck in the trade you joined as for awhile.  Join the CF in a trade you think you will be happy doing for at least a few years(ie your first contract).  If the trade you want is closed,  and it is what you want then wait for it.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on October 03, 2012, 09:12:48
Hello folks,

So I'm just waiting for some final scribbles on my OT paperwork and my meeting with the BPSO but I'm wondering something. If my file does not make it back to Ottawa/review board by Novemberish this year, does that mean I will literally be waiting until roughly November 2013 or are there 'secondary' reviews held sometime in spring?

I've read a bit about this through various other means and talking with people but it seems to be a pretty mixed bag. Any insight would be appreciated! Waiting is a big game in the military so I'm definitely prepared to wait and have lots of work to do in my current trade, no boredom that's for sure!

Thanks,

PS> Since it would be rather difficult to arrange some famil flights and such in my geographic location, any chance someone could do a phone run through or email run through on what things I could encounter if I was lucky enough to get onto a flight? Reason I ask is two-fold. 1.) BPSO advised me it would make my application much more competitive had I attained famil flights / OJT of some sort. 2.) A guy whom applied from CFB Edmonton also and was recently accepted to the trade told me he arranged such visits out in BC and it helped him out quite a lot.

Joe
AES OP Hopeful from CFB Edmonton
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on October 03, 2012, 12:35:41
PM inbound
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on October 03, 2012, 12:45:40
PM inbound

TB will tell you everything you need to know and you can trust him to give you an honest opinion on the good and bad aspects of life in the trade.


**edit to remove typo.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on October 03, 2012, 15:20:05
I must have learned it from someone.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: aesop081 on October 03, 2012, 15:24:39
I must have learned it from someone.

Must have been DPK.
Title: Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Post by: zander1976 on January 06, 2013, 17:30:57
Hello Everybody,

What is life like for an Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator (AESO)? I tried searching but I only found a conversation regarding if it should be open to the public. I would love to hear about the selection process, the training process and the daily life of a AESO. What are the required traits to make you good at AESO? I have been a software/game developer for 15 years and I enjoy math and physics. I am studying electronics engineering and I am a fire fighter/medical first responder.

Thank you very much,
Ben
Title: Re: Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Post by: GAP on January 06, 2013, 19:49:05
Quote
I only found a conversation regarding if it should be open to the public


You read that then went on to ask

Quote
I would love to hear about the selection process, the training process and the daily life of a AESO.

really?
 ::)
Title: Re: Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 06, 2013, 20:34:10
17 pages here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,22838.0.html

More info here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,92781.0.html

Its AES Op, AESOP or AESOP. 

I know the Recruiting website has it listed as an "in demand" trade, but the trade has fairly good numbers right now so I wouldn't be surprised if you found out from the CFRC they aren't recruiting AES Ops now, or until 01 Apr.
Title: Re: Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Post by: zander1976 on January 06, 2013, 20:46:28

You read that then went on to ask

really?
 ::)

What are you talking about? Yes, the conversation I found was about should it be open to the public or not. Did you think that is the only criteria for the selection process? 
Title: Re: Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Post by: zander1976 on January 06, 2013, 20:55:49
17 pages here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,22838.0.html

More info here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,92781.0.html

Its AES Op, AESOP or AESOP. 

I know the Recruiting website has it listed as an "in demand" trade, but the trade has fairly good numbers right now so I wouldn't be surprised if you found out from the CFRC they aren't recruiting AES Ops now, or until 01 Apr.

I had already found both of those links but thank you for your help.
Title: Re: Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Post by: zander1976 on January 06, 2013, 21:01:20
I guess, I was looking for a less specific answer. Can a civilian do the job, spec pay and all of that stuff aren't really what I was looking for. I was just wondering what the job is like and what the training is like from a high level. Like is it fun, what do you do, how often do you fly, what are the hours like, do you like your job, what kind of stuff do you do when you are flying and do you wish you picked a different trade? etc..
Title: Re: Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Post by: Hatchet Man on January 13, 2013, 10:39:48
17 pages here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,22838.0.html

More info here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,92781.0.html

Its AES Op, AESOP or AESOP. 

I know the Recruiting website has it listed as an "in demand" trade, but the trade has fairly good numbers right now so I wouldn't be surprised if you found out from the CFRC they aren't recruiting AES Ops now, or until 01 Apr.

They are taking internals though, I had a CT offer, right after accepted my current position here in the sandbox. 
Title: Re: Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 16, 2013, 10:39:58
I guess, I was looking for a less specific answer. Can a civilian do the job, spec pay and all of that stuff aren't really what I was looking for. I was just wondering what the job is like and what the training is like from a high level. Like is it fun, what do you do, how often do you fly, what are the hours like, do you like your job, what kind of stuff do you do when you are flying and do you wish you picked a different trade? etc..

1.  To be an AES Op, you can't be a civilian.  You have to be in the CF, selected for and trained as an AES Op.

2.  The rest of your questions WRT to trg have already likely been answered or covered to the extent ppl are going to cover them on here, which is in general terms and not specific terms.  Not all of this stuff is unclassified.

3.  Job, hours, flying, etc there is no one answer.  What community are you in?  Are you with an OTU, an operational Sqn, perhaps a training establishment like 1 CFFTS?  Are you in a ground billet like WOps?  Teaching EW stuff at CFSAS?  HOTEF/MP & EU?  A project office?  Initial Cadre Training for a new system?

As a new AES Op, after Wings you can expect to *likely* go to a Maritime Helicopter Sqn or Long Range Patrol Squadron, complete the OTU/MOAT training, be put on a HelAirDet or Crew and complete a flying tour.  To get to that point, you're looking at approx. 3-4 years after beginning the recruiting process (using a very general time appreciation that could be shorter, or longer).  LRP guys may log more hours and more away trips than the MH types, but the MH types may fly more often or get more deployments. 

However...I think most ppl in the trade would tell you its an excellent trade (there is always someone who isn't happy, right?) , I've never heard of anyone OT'ing out to another NCM trade.  I know of a few AES Ops who have gone the Officer route from AES Op to ACSO. 

 :2c:
Title: Re: Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 16, 2013, 10:41:51
They are taking internals though, I had a CT offer, right after accepted my current position here in the sandbox.

Yup, COTP is open.  Not sure how many are being hunted for the 13/14 FY.  Did you accept with a deferred CT/OT date?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on January 16, 2013, 11:21:52
hey  zander1976 another site that you may find usefull and find all your questions is at www.aesoplounge.com there are a lot of questions answered and you can add more if needed....hopefiully that will help you out...and I am not sure if they closed the trade to civilians or not some say yes and others say no
Title: Re: Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Post by: Hatchet Man on January 16, 2013, 17:21:25
Yup, COTP is open.  Not sure how many are being hunted for the 13/14 FY.  Did you accept with a deferred CT/OT date?

Nope, I released (well sup res) since I can potentially be here in the sandbox for a few years (6 figure, tax free income, going to ride this gravy train as long as I can). 

But just to clarify AES Op is one to civilians off the street, it's fairly recent that this happened  http://www.forces.ca/en/job/airborneelectronicsensoroperator-8#education-2  it's actually right on the main page that it's an in demand occupation. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 16, 2013, 17:39:53
Right, I know that.   The DE trial started over 3 years ago.  Some of them were on my courses.

However, I am saying that I am surprised its an in demand trade, as the TES/PML #s are pretty good.  I wouldn't be surprised there are 2 or 3 Ext pos this FY.
You can apply as a civilian to the CFRC, but the question was "can you do the job as a civie".

I guess, I was looking for a less specific answer. Can a civilian do the job
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Hatchet Man on January 16, 2013, 17:47:22
Right, I know that.   The DE trial started over 3 years ago.  Some of them were on my courses.

However, I am saying that I am surprised its an in demand trade, as the TES/PML #s are pretty good.  I wouldn't be surprised there are 2 or 3 Ext pos this FY.
You can apply as a civilian to the CFRC, but the question was "can you do the job as a civie".

Ah gotchya, I read these late at night for me. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 16, 2013, 19:05:38
Stick on the ice overthere.   :warstory:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: zander1976 on January 16, 2013, 23:14:37
Thanks Peterpan. I am checking it out now.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on January 17, 2013, 09:48:27
I think what he meant about "can I do this job as a civie" is can a civilian apply to the military in the trade, or do you have to already be in the CF before he can apply to AESOp.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: moose34 on February 20, 2013, 08:44:07
Good Morning all,

I am hoping that some of you will be able to answer my questions.  I have read through this entire thread, and it has been very informitable. 

I applied for a CT/OT to AES OP in Sept 12.  Was told right away to get my aircrew medical done as I had a chance to get a job offer and course loaded in Jan.  I wasn't able to get my medical done fast enough.  So now I'm hoping that I can get onto the next course in April.

The one question that I still have in my head is 1) What does the math test on the first day of course consist off? 2) Is there still a math test? and 3) After you get your wings, how much time would you have to participate in sports?  I ask this because I Officiate hockey on base and minor hockey in the city, and I would love to keep it up.  But it is definitely not going to prevent me from accepting an offer.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 21, 2013, 18:04:23

The one question  that I still have in my head is 1) What does the math test on the first day of course consist off? 2) Is there still a math test?

That's 2 questions.  ;)  Maybe someone recently thru the 3s can verify, but the MATH PIP/test is no longer a part of the 3s or 5s courses (however, math skills are still needed). 

Quote
and 3) After you get your wings, how much time would you have to participate in sports?  I ask this because I Officiate hockey on base and minor hockey in the city, and I would love to keep it up.  Thanks in advance.

Shouldn't be a problem but will depend on some stuff like course requirements, flying schedule, deployments, etc.  But you'd be able to giver' aside from that. 

Good luck.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: moose34 on February 22, 2013, 09:54:32
Good Morning,

Thank you for the information, appreciate it.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Lardofthedance on February 22, 2013, 13:53:12
Why is it that the most common question is "is there math?!!" I belive the PIP and math portion that many of us had to do has been modified or cut from the course, but I can't promise that. BUT, if you are looking at joining the trade, a workable knowledge in mathematics is a good asset. Good luck, bonne chance and whatever they say in Finland.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: moose34 on February 25, 2013, 11:07:51
Why is it that the most common question is "is there math?!!" I belive the PIP and math portion that many of us had to do has been modified or cut from the course, but I can't promise that. BUT, if you are looking at joining the trade, a workable knowledge in mathematics is a good asset. Good luck, bonne chance and whatever they say in Finland.

Thank you.

I do understand the need for math, I have no difficulty with math.  I was mearly just inquiring.  If there was a math test on the first day, and I didnt prepare the best that I could, and got RTU'd, I would be kicking myself for the rest of my life, lol.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on February 25, 2013, 13:54:49
Hey moose, there isn't a pre requisite math form you have to do before course starts, but it is good to brush up on some math as there is some formulas you have to do while on your 3's. And for getting in around April, I am not too sure, as they pick people in January for the April class
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ditch on February 25, 2013, 18:53:55
  I ask this because I Officiate hockey on base and minor hockey in the city, and I would love to keep it up.

Lots of time for extra-curricular activities - where-ever you get posted.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Wilamanjaro on March 04, 2013, 16:15:49
I'm looking into changing trades to AESOp, I was just wondering if I am correct about the training. 24 weeks in Winnipeg, another 20 something weeks in nova scotia, then posted to either Halifax or Victoria? And do the AESOps go away with the navy ships for months at a time or would we usually just stay on the coast?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 04, 2013, 17:08:46
I'm looking into changing trades to AESOp, I was just wondering if I am correct about the training. 24 weeks in Winnipeg

Give or take;  BAQC (3s) is about 3 months,  IAQC (5s) is 50 trg day by the QS but could be longer depending on weather, aircraft, etc.  Call is 2.5 - 3 months.  Also, before you do the 5s, you have to do AMT (another week in Wpg).  Take into consideration that there could be a relatively short to relatively long pause between your 3s and 5s and that will add time to the equation (I only had a 1 week break, good in one way, bad in others).

Aside from that, there are some changes that AFAIK were proposed but am not sure if they are/will be implemented so won't mention at this time.  Suffice to say, it is the CF and things change constantly.

Quote
another 20 something weeks in nova scotia
 

For nice easy numbers to work with, figure on 6 months.

MOAT = Maritime Operational Aircrew Training, the next phase of trg for those going LRP (Aurora).  MOAT is out of 404 LRP & T in Greenwood.  You could end up being picked for Non-Acoustic Sensors Op *NASO*  or Acoustics Sensor Op *ASO* (commonly called "dry" and "wet"), and there are some differences in the trg within each specialty.

OTU = Operational Training Unit, the next phase of trg for those going MH (SeaKing). OTU is out of 406 (M) OTS in Shearwater.

Throw into the mix the Basic Lands Op Survival Course/Basic SERE crse (10 days) and Sea Survivial crse (3 days) at some point in time.

Quote
then posted to either Halifax or Victoria?

Those who go MH can expect to be posted to either 443 Sqn in Pat Bay (Victoria) BC or 423 Sqn in Shearwater.

Those who go LRP can expect to be posted to either 407 LRP in Comox BC or 405 LRP in Greenwood NS.

It is possible to not be posted to a flying position right out of Winnipeg after Wings.  There is a chance for ground jobs like Wing Ops, or other support jobs.  CFEWC (CF Electronic Warfare Center) outside Ottawa ON is also a possibility as well.

Quote
And do the AESOps go away with the navy ships for months at a time or would we usually just stay on the coast?

Aircrew are attached to a Helicopter Air Detachment (HelAirDet or AirDet) for a HMCS.  When the ship is alongside, the AirDet works out of the Sqn lines in Shearwater /Pats Bay.  If/when the ship deploys with the HelAirDet onboard, the AirDet pers are along for the trip, whether it is a short or long one.  Some could be a week or two, some could be 6+months. 

It is a great trade, with great people and leadership.  Good luck!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on March 04, 2013, 17:14:23
Another thing to remember is that the courses do not always line up, so it is possible that you could be sitting around for close to a year after your training in Winnipeg, while you wait for your MOAT/OTU.  (extreme cases, but I have seen it happen)

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on March 04, 2013, 17:14:59
Yes, the training is approx. 24 weeks in Winnipeg which is ussually split  (so you will have some time to go home in between) between your 3's, 12 weeks and 5's, 12 + weeks as it may run longer because of weather or aircraft sevicability  , and there is about 20 or so weeks in either Halifax (sea king) or Comox (aurora), again just an estimate as it could and probably will run longer, depending on what platform you are chosen for. And yes, if you are sea king, you go where ever the ship goes, and gone as long as the ship is gone.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on March 04, 2013, 17:18:32
LOL..eye in the sky answered it a lot better then i did.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 04, 2013, 17:26:50
Another thing to remember is that the courses do not always line up, so it is possible that you could be sitting around for close to a year after your training in Winnipeg, while you wait for your MOAT/OTU.  (extreme cases, but I have seen it happen)

I know of 1 guy who waited so long just to get a crse load msg for the 3s, he got fed up and went back to his former trade.  It was approx a year waiting when he said 'done'.  Extreme case also, and was right at near the start of the DEA trial.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on March 04, 2013, 17:28:31
I hope that trade was Postal Clerk, I couldn't imagine another NCM trade worth leaving for.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 04, 2013, 17:29:23
Bos'n  :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on March 04, 2013, 17:43:47
I have known a guy that took 6 years to get, but again that is an extreme case, most guys are about 9 moths to about 18-22 give or take. Never give up though!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Habs on March 06, 2013, 00:06:04
Apologies for this if it annoys any of you...

Is there a contract for AESOP? I looked on the MOSID/MOC list and it just says "No VIE". I searched and couldn't find anything.

Thanks.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 06, 2013, 12:32:32
Are you in the CF now or direct entry?  Contract in CF speak is TOS (Terms of Service).  For AES Op, the TOS Sequence is VIE 5, CE 5, CE 5, and IE 25. (#s indicate the length in years)

VIE = Variable Initial Engagment   CE = Continuing Engagement   IE25 = Intermediate Engagement 25 year

If you are coming in right off the street, yes the first contract is a VIE 5.  From there, at each TOS offer, you would be given a choice of either a CE of 5 years or the IE 25, and you get to pick the one you sign.  Obviously after 2 CE 5s you would get the IE25 offer.  Your TOS offers are made 12 months before you current TOS expires.

If you are currently serving and looking to OT in to the trade, depending on your current TOS, you *may* have to sign a new TOS because there is a Restricted Release Date/Period (RRD/P).  Basically, you would be restricted from releasing or OTing out of the trade until 3 years after reaching OFP (Operationally Functional Point), which for AES Op is the QL5 qualification and Wings.

If you are already in and can navigate the DIN, refs are ADM (HR-Mil) Instruction 05/05 [RRD/P info for OTs is Para's 19-21].  TOS Sequence is found in Annex A, Appendix 1.  The instr is on the CF Mil Pers Instr site.  2nd ref is CANFORGEN 031/09.

* 05/05 has a few amendments that were not put in to the actual Instr, which are found in CANFORGEN 031/09.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Habs on March 06, 2013, 20:15:56
Are you in the CF now or direct entry?  Contract in CF speak is TOS (Terms of Service).  For AES Op, the TOS Sequence is VIE 5, CE 5, CE 5, and IE 25. (#s indicate the length in years)

VIE = Variable Initial Engagment   CE = Continuing Engagement   IE25 = Intermediate Engagement 25 year

If you are coming in right off the street, yes the first contract is a VIE 5.  From there, at each TOS offer, you would be given a choice of either a CE of 5 years or the IE 25, and you get to pick the one you sign.  Obviously after 2 CE 5s you would get the IE25 offer.  Your TOS offers are made 12 months before you current TOS expires.

If you are currently serving and looking to OT in to the trade, depending on your current TOS, you *may* have to sign a new TOS because there is a Restricted Release Date/Period (RRD/P).  Basically, you would be restricted from releasing or OTing out of the trade until 3 years after reaching OFP (Operationally Functional Point), which for AES Op is the QL5 qualification and Wings.

If you are already in and can navigate the DIN, refs are ADM (HR-Mil) Instruction 05/05 [RRD/P info for OTs is Para's 19-21].  TOS Sequence is found in Annex A, Appendix 1.  The instr is on the CF Mil Pers Instr site.  2nd ref is CANFORGEN 031/09.

* 05/05 has a few amendments that were not put in to the actual Instr, which are found in CANFORGEN 031/09.

Ack... thank you. I am currently in the PRes so I'd need to do a CT + OT. The joys of that are immense, I know.

So I'm looking at a contract of at least 5 years. Now, stupid question, and this applies to all trades, but since I'm a PRes I'm not very aware of RegF contracts. Does the contract include the time spent in BMQ/BAEQ/MOQ for AESOP? Or does it start once all of your training is complete, you have your wings, and you're zooming around in the aircraft?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 06, 2013, 21:30:42
If you get a CT, I will make an 'educated guess' it will be a VIE 5 to start.  Contract would start on your CT date.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Good2Golf on March 09, 2013, 04:19:18
Quote
I hope that trade was Postal Clerk, I couldn't imagine another NCM trade worth leaving for.

Assaulter?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on March 26, 2013, 18:39:02
Anyone hear anything yet? Any new OT offers out?

I know, probably a tad early but you never know!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Habs on April 06, 2013, 17:45:36
Two questions I've just thought of.

Are AESOps door gunners on the Griffon, Chinook and the Sea King, or just the Sea King? If so, which trade takes the role of door gunner in the Griffon/Chinook?

Also, AESOp appears to be the only NCM Air Crew trade that you can join directly from the PRes or civvy street. Is this true? If I understand correctly, trades like FE and Nav/TACCO (Not sure what it's called) are specialty trades that you can only remuster to.

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on April 06, 2013, 19:36:44
AES Op act as door gunner on the Sea King only. Door gunners on the Griffon/chinook were FEs or observers taken from cbt arms trades, but never became a trade per se.
Yes you can join AES Op from either the Res or as direct entry. To become FE one must be either AVN or AVS first.  Navs now called ACSO are Officer trades.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Loachman on April 11, 2013, 13:21:22
FEs man the door gun on their side of the Griffon. The gunner on the other side is usually a Cbt Arms guy on loan for a given op or high-readiness period.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on April 22, 2013, 03:38:36
So, I hate to be the one to ask the obvious question... ANYONE gotten an COTP offer for AES OP yet this year?

If I was a fruit I'd be getting very very ripe by now!!! More like a stewed tomatoe if nothing heard from D-MIL C by 1 May! I'm sure I'm not the only one playing the waiting game for this round of picks!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on April 22, 2013, 09:29:42
Ack... thank you. I am currently in the PRes so I'd need to do a CT + OT. The joys of that are immense, I know.

So I'm looking at a contract of at least 5 years. Now, stupid question, and this applies to all trades, but since I'm a PRes I'm not very aware of RegF contracts. Does the contract include the time spent in BMQ/BAEQ/MOQ for AESOP? Or does it start once all of your training is complete, you have your wings, and you're zooming around in the aircraft?


If you are already PRes then you will not have to do BMQ and BEAQ over, as you would have already have done that in the Reserves. As for when the five year term starts, I would say it is when you are 5's qualified, but I may be wrong. Someone correct me if I am wrong
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on April 22, 2013, 09:31:29
So, I hate to be the one to ask the obvious question... ANYONE gotten an COTP offer for AES OP yet this year?

If I was a fruit I'd be getting very very ripe by now!!! More like a stewed tomatoe if nothing heard from D-MIL C by 1 May! I'm sure I'm not the only one playing the waiting game for this round of picks!


How long has it been since you put your OT in??
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 22, 2013, 10:02:05

If you are already PRes then you will not have to do BMQ and BEAQ BAEQ over

Unless they were Army or Navy Reserve etc and never did BAEQ.   ;)

Quote
As for when the five year term starts, I would say it is when you are 5's qualified

The VIE contract would start eff date of the CT.  For our trade the VIE is 5 years, which covers the time in training to get to OFP and for the CF to get some hours out of you.  After the VIE, the mbr should be offered either a choice of CE 5 or IE25.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on April 22, 2013, 12:38:56
Unless they were Army or Navy Reserve etc and never did BAEQ.   ;)

True, but where he had mentioned it, I was only assuming he were in the army. ( But we all know what assuming does..LOL) ;D
And now it is time to get a nice Tims DD. :nana:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on April 22, 2013, 17:15:46

How long has it been since you put your OT in??

June of 2012!

Which is a normal time frame for a Cotp application far as I can tell but I have a posting in to Kingston with my current trade... So as soon as I can find out if I have an offer in I'll know if I'm still moving there or not.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on April 23, 2013, 10:06:41
June of 2012!

Well I had applied in Feb of 2011 and was in one year later on feb 2012, but I was persisitant with phone calls and emails. Have you had any interviews, aircrew med. or anything done yet? And like I said in another post, some guys it takes a year, and other it takes longer, I gues what time of year you put you CT in also plays a factor.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 23, 2013, 12:12:53
He's doing a VOT under the COTP.  CT is something different.

At this point, COTP applicants are waiting for offers to come out of D Mil C (as well as the AVOTP folks).
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on April 24, 2013, 10:44:43
Sorry, my bad, I was quicly scanning over the conversation and wasnt paying attention to COTP. Selective reading I guess. LOL
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on May 27, 2013, 17:35:04
Hello All,

My number two choice on the application was AESOP and I see that it's available on the Forces.ca website. I was reading that it's a new practice to recruit civilians for this occupation.

Just wondering if anyone knows or was a fresh out of the population recruit and how well they fit in?

Thank you for your time.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Hatchet Man on May 28, 2013, 13:00:27
Hello All,

My number two choice on the application was AESOP and I see that it's available on the Forces.ca website. I was reading that it's a new practice to recruit civilians for this occupation.

Just wondering if anyone knows or was a fresh out of the population recruit and how well they fit in?

Thank you for your time.

Start at page 1 of this thread.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 28, 2013, 13:17:15
My number two choice on the application was AESOP and I see that it's available on the Forces.ca website. I was reading that it's a new practice to recruit civilians for this occupation.

Relatively new, 4 years or so since the Direct Entry stuff began.  Most if not all of the first batches of Direct Entry folks are now Cpls with XXX hours logged and all that.

Quote
Just wondering if anyone knows or was a fresh out of the population recruit and how well they fit in?

I was a remuster into the trade vice Direct Entry/from-the-recruiting-center flavoured, but there is atleast one Direct Entry on here who might come by and gab some about the way life is for a Pte AES Op.[/quote]

Quote
Thank you for your time.

No need to thank me; the bill is in the mail.   8)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on May 28, 2013, 15:26:49
Start at page 1 of this thread.

Page 1 of the thread was quite some time ago in 2004, so I thought I would get some up to date answers and incites. However, thank you for your reply.

Eye in the Sky!!! I sent the payment though carrier pigeon, if you hear a knocking on the window it may be payment :)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 28, 2013, 17:40:06
Let me guess; monopoly money OR Crappy Tire bills.   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on May 28, 2013, 17:45:34
Well it depends on how much pull you have for the process of hiring recruits with promise ;0)

Let me guess; monopoly money OR Crappy Tire bills.   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 28, 2013, 18:22:32
Looks like I'm getting a roll of TP then.....
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on June 06, 2013, 18:21:16
Good news is that I don't have to write the cfat because I wrote it 10 years ago right out of high school. Bad news is I'm not sure what I scored or what is needed to become an AESOP.

I believe I was good enough at the time to become a NavCom. Anyone know if I would of needed higher than 85-90%?

The more I re-watch the AESOP clip, the more NAVCOM seems to not be as hot a choice.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 06, 2013, 18:26:57
Your CFRC staff should be able to tell if your CFAT score was good for AES Op. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on June 06, 2013, 18:34:01
Hey,

That's what I'm waiting for, as I called to ask when I could do the CFAT and she said that they are awaiting to hear back regarding my scores as I wrote the CFAT a long time ago and if they were valid, then they would tell me if they were good enough for occupations selected.

I'll keep you updated! :)

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 10, 2013, 14:52:21
From a different thread (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,110875.msg1234885.html#msg1234885), but this post covers some of 'what AES Op life would be like as a Pte out of BMQ. 

For OTs, the trg etc would be pretty much the same with the exception of the posting to 17 Wing while awaiting the BAQC, IAW the direction in the BTAGs, you'd likely be posted to the nearest BTL and then Attach Posted out for courses.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok.  So let's say you go to and make it thru BMQ.  What happens next?  You would almost for sure be sent to Winnipeg while awaiting the AES Op QL3 (ground/academic phase, called Basic AES Op Qualification Course - BAQC) and QL5 (flying phase, called Intermediate AES Op Qualification Course - IAQC).  At this time, if you are married, kids etc they wouldn't be going there at this time.

While you are waiting for your QL3 there are a few courses you might take.  Basic Air Environmental Qualification - BAEQ (1 week, likely Borden On or Winnipeg) is one.  The Army equivalent is the BMQ-Land course.  BAEQ is "classroom, shacks and the mess for meals".   ;)  You might also take the Aeromedical Training (AMT) course in Winnipeg at the Canadian Forces School of Survival and Aeromedical Training (CFSSAT) (http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/17w-17e/schools-ecoles/page-eng.asp?id=457).  There is also a chance you might take a 10 day "Land Survival Course" also ran by CFSSAT in Springers Lake MB as well 2 day Sea Survival Course at the Canadian Forces School of Search and Rescue (CFSSAR) (http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/19w-19e/schools-ecoles/page-eng.asp?id=654) in Comox BC.  This all depends on availability of spots on the courses, when you are slated for your AES Op QL3 and QL5 courses, etc.  However, you must do the AMT course before you move on to the flying/QL5 course. 

While in 17 Wing as a PAT, most of the guys I know worked at places like 435 Sqn (http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/17w-17e/sqns-escs/page-eng.asp?id=412) or at CFSSAT; none of the guys I know had any problems and got to see or do a few things they wouldn't have in a Army or Navy PAT unit such as flying on the Herc's, going to Springers Lake helping with a Land Survival Course, etc.  IMO it's a pretty decent go for a untrained Private.

Once your Basic AES Op Qualification Course starts at 1 Canadian Forces Flying Training School (1CFFTS) (http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/17w-17e/schools-ecoles/page-eng.asp?id=461) your trade training has really started. 

- The BAQC (QL3) is about 14 weeks long and is basically all academic/classroom training.  Lots of studying and exams but for the most part it is a Monday - Friday, 8-4 routine (with morning PT and some inspections as directed/needed).  The dress is CADPAT/combats during the ground phase.  For quarters it is (or was, haven't been to the Peg in a few years) 2 to a room during BAQC.  But consider that the rooms have a 2 beds, 2 computer desks, a full bathroom, TV w/cable, a mini fridge, microwave, coffee maker and phone and that this is a QL3 course...well that's pretty sweet compared to what most QL3 students get anywhere else.   Seriously.  Unless things have changed, the last day of the BAQC is your first day in a flight suit.

- So you've finished BAQC and are waiting for your flying phase/QL5/Intermediate AES Op Qualification course.  If there is a gap between them, you will likely go back to a job similar to when you are a PAT waiting for BAQC.  I've also known people who were on extended waits who were allowed to go do OJT at a unit close to their home and families, such as the Griffon Squadrons in Edmonton and Borden.  If you haven't done it already, you would have to do the AMT course at this point.  If you haven't done the BAEQ, Sea Survival or Land Survival courses you could find yourself on them at this point as well.

- the time winds down and now you are on the IAQC with around 7 others.  Same deal for quarters except now you have your own room.  The course is about 10 weeks but expect it to run longer as there are delays from weather, aircraft availability/serviceability, etc.   There isn't as much studying and exams but by no means is less effort required.  Now you have to the put the theory stuff to work and apply it.  There is some classroom and exams but the meat of the course is central to completing the trainers in the simulators and the flying missions during the 2 phases (Low Level RADAR Navigation/Fixing and the Homings Phase).   All the theory from the BAQC and the new stuff taught on the IAQC is put into practice and you have to perform in an airborne environment.  After you complete IAQC, you will be presented AES Op wings and posted to your first Sqn.

** if you have wife/husband/kids, etc this is when they will be posted with you and you'll get the full benefits of a move with the CF.  And they aren't bad either.  No packing or carrying your stuff, hotels while you are on the road, meals for the entire family, home sale/purchase benefits, etc.

After you get your Wings and posting, you will then have to complete either the course to become (1) a Maritime Helicopter AES Op - ran in Shearwater NS (2) a Long Range Patrol (LRP) Non Acoustic Sensor Op (aka NASO or "dry") or (3) a LRP Acoustic Sensor Op (aka ASO or "wet").  What's the difference between dry and wet?  Wet, think sonobuoys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonobuoy), ASW.  Dry guys do RADAR, EW stuff, ordanence, EO/IR camera, the MAD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_anomaly_detector), etc.  Both of the LRP courses take place in Greenwood NS.

I'd say you can chaulk off 6 months for the Maritime (Sea King) or LRP (Aurora) courses after Wings.  Again there might be a delay in your course start so you might be employed around the Sqn on a crew doing OJT, at Sqn Ops, Wing Ops etc.

If you haven't completed the Sea Survival and Land Survival Courses you could expect to go on them at this point as well as there are certain timelines to have them complete.

All in all, the AES Op trade is a good go, good people, minimal BS but it IS a flying trade; you will be away, don't expect Mon-Fri 8-4.  There is specialist pay after you get your Wings and are promoted to Cpl (check the pay tables for the difference in Standard and Specialist pay groups).  If in a flying position, there is also Aircrew Allowance $(311/month starting off).  If you are of the fling-wing/egg beater variety  ;D and posted to a SeaKing Det on a ship, you also get Sea Duty Allowance ($311/month starting off).   

For the record I have personally never heard an AES Op who came in direct entry who did NOT like/love the trade and regretted it.  Like any job there are some downsides but, IMO, it doesn't get much better than this for a Pte in the CF.  I've seen lots to compare it too.

 :2c:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 10, 2013, 15:00:13
WRT to the SQs while in the Peg at 1 CFFTS

That has changed now as the AESOp's are no longer in building 65 and have been moved to a building down the way. (73 or something) so the bathroom is shared and the rooms are older and don't have a microwave and some don't have t.v's although there is a lounge up stairs, but compared to the old AESOp lounge it is small ( the size of a small bedroom) but you still have a room to yourself, but the treck to the mess/1CFFTS is a lot further away now. Lucky for me though I had finished courses just before they made the move.

Tks Pete for the current info.  Too bad about The Lounge!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on June 10, 2013, 15:04:33
WRT to the SQs while in the Peg at 1 CFFTS

Tks Pete for the current info.  Too bad about The Lounge!!
No prob. yeah loosing the lounge was a big disapointmant as well as your own bathroom, cable tv and no maid service. But I got to be the last class to have an AESOp party in the original lounge.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 10, 2013, 15:09:12
Bldg 65 was great for morale in many ways.  73...must be down close to where the MET types were?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on June 10, 2013, 15:10:07
No prob. yeah loosing the lounge was a big disapointmant as well as your own bathroom, cable tv and no maid service. But I got to be the last class to have an AESOp party in the original lounge.

Well there goes this career choice!! No private bathroom or cable tv!  :crybaby:

J/k. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on June 10, 2013, 15:20:48
Well there goes this career choice!! No private bathroom or cable tv!  :crybaby:

J/k. Thanks for the info.
I know, that is what I am talking about!!!....Life is going to be sooo rough out there LOL
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on June 10, 2013, 15:35:44
I know, that is what I am talking about!!!....Life is going to be sooo rough out there LOL

How long is that commute to the mess?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: GAP on June 10, 2013, 15:38:18
How long is that commute to the mess?

from 5 to 8.5 minutes?  :)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 10, 2013, 15:41:06
The walk from Bldg 65 could almost be measured in kartwheels on 1 hand, it was that close.  Which was nice when it was -45 in Jan.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on June 10, 2013, 15:44:40
from 5 to 8.5 minutes?  :)

So what you are saying is that it takes 5 minutes in the nice weather and 8.5 minutes in the 4 feet of snow?

I'm really going to have to start looking for another posting as I'm allergic to snow  ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 10, 2013, 15:48:37
You haven't heard of the dreaded "forced march" from the mess to Bldg 84...it goes something like this:

Course!  By the left....Quick...March!  Left right left right left right leftttttttttttttttttt....COURSE...HALT!

 ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on June 10, 2013, 16:09:34
You haven't heard of the dreaded "forced march" from the mess to Bldg 84...it goes something like this:

Course!  By the left....Quick...March!  Left right left right left right leftttttttttttttttttt....COURSE...HALT!

 ;D
:rofl: man that was fun...especially before it got too icey, not enough for them to stop you from doing it, but bad enough to wonder who is going to fall first
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on June 10, 2013, 18:11:25
Bldg 65 was great for morale in many ways.  73...must be down close to where the MET types were?
well the MET tech's were in 65 and as far as I know they still are!! the building we are in, the only way to explain it is if you go to the back of the building you can see the hotel on base across the small field. I guess they want to turn 65 into another hotel
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 10, 2013, 18:16:30
You guys were living in the Dakota Inn? 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on June 10, 2013, 21:04:15
You guys were living in the Dakota Inn?
no no....the building they were moved to is in front of the dakota INN,,,,if you were standing at the front doors of the hotel looking out, the new building they moved the AESOp's to is across the parking lot of the dakota Inn.....if that makes sense here is the map it is building 72 and to show the guys that don't know, the AESOp building used to be right across from the combined mess...so a bit longer forced marches in the beggining LOL  :salute:    http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/vital/dfs-dsv/pub/images/17wing.jpg
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 11, 2013, 06:29:54
Roger, that was where the MET and NAV's were staying when I went thru.  Ref the "no more cable"....
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on June 11, 2013, 07:49:02
 :rofl: The bad thing is, is that was my EXACT reaction when I had to stay in the room for two days before I left, which makes the comic even that much more halarious. Yeah I guess we do get a bit spoiled.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Jacky Tar on June 11, 2013, 16:34:22
Roger, that was where the MET and NAV's were staying when I went thru.  Ref the "no more cable"....

That's excellent! I'm tempted to add a frame for the Navy, though... water coming into the fwd engine room maybe, with a stoker looking at it going "This f***in' sucks!"
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 11, 2013, 17:19:39
A Cdn one would be nice to have....
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on June 11, 2013, 18:37:53
The more I re-watch the AESOP clip, the more NAVCOM seems to not be as hot a choice.

Ex-NAVCOM, currently an AES Op.

Your observations are leading you down the right path my friend.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on June 11, 2013, 18:43:06
Ex-NAVCOM, currently an AES Op.

Your observations are leading you down the right path my friend.

This whole waiting game to see if my marks were good enough from my CFAT from like 10 years ago is starting to drive me insane. I know my math marks were high and the English was decent, but it was such a long time ago.

I even got my spouse on board to come live in Manitoba for a bit, the only stipulation was that she wants another child... I figured with the winters there it should be a problem lol!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on June 17, 2013, 18:18:51
Ex-NAVCOM, currently an AES Op.

Your observations are leading you down the right path my friend.

CFAT came back, good for any position officer or NCM. Hopefully after the next steps I get offered Aesop. Fingers, Toes, and legs crossed.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on June 18, 2013, 00:52:40
So, after months and months and months and now a posting... I've heard nothing! Not a Decline message, not an offer message! Nothing... THAT'S frustrating!!!

I'm going to guess (but check with the clerks at  my new unit for an update on my application) that I wasn't 'competitive' enough... Which somewhat surprises me... So for those of you who are going to start the process, it's long, and it can end like mine thus far lol... Be advised!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on June 26, 2013, 18:09:16
So, after months and months and months and now a posting... I've heard nothing! Not a Decline message, not an offer message! Nothing... THAT'S frustrating!!!

I'm going to guess (but check with the clerks at  my new unit for an update on my application) that I wasn't 'competitive' enough... Which somewhat surprises me... So for those of you who are going to start the process, it's long, and it can end like mine thus far lol... Be advised!

I got my medical lined up for July 3rd, crossing the fingers and studying for the interview. Really want the Aesop job! Hope things are going better for you.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on July 09, 2013, 12:34:06
The scenario which will hopefully never happen, but if it does;

My Aircrew medical comes back, I pass and interview goes great and I get offered an Aesop career and life is good. Pass BMQ and am studying in Manitoba.

Should the unforeseeable happen and someone fails to many times, do they A) kick you out of the forces B) Put you in another trade C) Make you start the course over again?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 09, 2013, 13:17:44
It could be any one of those 3 options and will depend on what you failed, how you failed, you performance up to that time, was pre/post Wings, etc.

*it depends* on a whole bunch of factors and depending even on what point in your career you are at. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on July 11, 2013, 18:46:53
Just want to make sure that I get this correct;

Once you receive your wings which takes about 1.5 or more years, you become a corporal?

Medical is done and being sent tomorrow, studying the position, duties and your posts about training for the interview.



Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 11, 2013, 22:55:27
Well...that's a fair estimate.  Plan for 48 months from your swearing in date for Cpls.  Promotion to Cpl isn't tied so much to "when you get Winged" to "having the required training and time-in".

48 months, and QL5 qual (Wings) are what you should base it on.  There is a chance of getting accelerated promoted but...again don't count on it IMO.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on July 17, 2013, 15:10:07
Well...that's a fair estimate.  Plan for 48 months from your swearing in date for Cpls.  Promotion to Cpl isn't tied so much to "when you get Winged" to "having the required training and time-in".

48 months, and QL5 qual (Wings) are what you should base it on.  There is a chance of getting accelerated promoted but...again don't count on it IMO.
 

Yes, don't expect to get corporal after your wings....believe me! but being a private does have some perks :)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: SkyWalker91 on July 28, 2013, 20:30:20
I have interest in the AESOp Trade as well as ACO. I have been told that ASCOp's must posses above average math skills in addition to excellent spatial ability. I am looking into upgrading my math skills as well as taking a basic science course which covers basic Physics and them some... What kind of math courses would be best to take so I can better prepare myself for this path?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: PeterL on July 29, 2013, 02:35:06
What are the CFAT requirements for AESOp? Are they in line with AC Op (aerospace control)?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Hatchet Man on July 29, 2013, 03:50:17
I have interest in the AESOp Trade as well as ACO. I have been told that ASCOp's must posses above average math skills in addition to excellent spatial ability. I am looking into upgrading my math skills as well as taking a basic science course which covers basic Physics and them some... What kind of math courses would be best to take so I can better prepare myself for this path?

Hmm...20 pages in this....yeah....that kind of information hasn't been brought up and discussed before...oh wait it has, and recently.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 29, 2013, 08:20:10
I have interest in the AESOp Trade as well as ACO. I have been told that ASCOp's must posses above average math skills in addition to excellent spatial ability. I am looking into upgrading my math skills as well as taking a basic science course which covers basic Physics and them some... What kind of math courses would be best to take so I can better prepare myself for this path?

Gr 12 academic math.   I'm not sure what an ASCOp is ???
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 29, 2013, 08:23:54
What are the CFAT requirements for AESOp? Are they in line with AC Op (aerospace control)?

The CFAT requirement for AES OP is that you pass all the test requirements at the cut-off for AES Op.

I have no idea what they are.  It's an aptitude test. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: inf-acrw on October 25, 2013, 11:33:23
hi guys

ive been infantry almost 6 years and in the last year, all i can think about is how bad i want to remuster and ot to AES op.
ive read all about the trade, everything about it sounds great! i have spoken to the bpso some time in the summer and he
told me that unfortunately at this time i could not ot to this trade until the canforgen comes out in the spring. was pretty
bummed about that because at that point there was 9 months until i could begin the process. its a little closer now 5 more
months to go but after reading up a bit of this thread, it sounds as if the process takes an excruciatingly long time.. and an
even longer wait just for a call back after all your medicals and other tests just to let you know yey or ne.

is coming from civvy streets what makes the process so long? if so i understand the wait for that. if the ot process has been
known to be slow into this trade, what can i do to speed up that process before, and after, the ot goes through? could i start
my air medicals, hearing tests, vision tests, all that now in the spare time that i have or would i have to wait til ot is confirmed?
my aptitude test was a pass for pretty much anything i wanted and i chose infantry, silly me (no offense to any infanteers that
may read this), so im good on that anyway.. not that its a huge step ahead or anything. is it the coc that can be a little slow?
will i have to hassle them often, through proper channels and memos and all that good stuff, about what is going on in terms of
my ot?

i just signed my ie25 yesterday, and i really dont want to spend it here. also my ex-wife suprised me with a move to ns while i
was in afghanistan last year, so not only do i need a career change, i also need to be closer to my kids.. hopefully this dosent
backfire with a posting to bc lol  :facepalm:

so today, at this very moment, i am under the impression that i will be around here not only til the spring, but for quite a while
after that too  :-\
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 25, 2013, 15:02:08
I'll answer some of this for you in a bit. Only have my phone right now.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 26, 2013, 09:05:11
i have spoken to the bpso some time in the summer and he told me that unfortunately at this time i could not ot to this trade until the canforgen comes out in the spring. was pretty bummed about that because at that point there was 9 months until i could begin the process.

The trade used to fall under the COTP (Continuing OT Program) but sounds like it was moved out, likely due to our numbers/trade health being up.  What the COTP meant was applications were accepted all the time, however the Selection Board still only sat once a year, which is how AVOTP works.  So no change aside from 'cosmetics' IMO. 

Quote
its a little closer now 5 more months to go but after reading up a bit of this thread, it sounds as if the process takes an excruciatingly long time.. and an
even longer wait just for a call back after all your medicals and other tests just to let you know yey or ne.  is coming from civvy streets what makes the process so long? if so i understand the wait for that. if the ot process has been known to be slow into this trade

Not so much for OT.  Process shouldn't take THAT long really.  There can be waits for medical stuff so best to start that ASAP.

Quote
known to be slow into this trade, what can i do to speed up that process before, and after, the ot goes through? could i start
my air medicals, hearing tests, vision tests, all that now in the spare time that i have or would i have to wait til ot is confirmed?

You will want to get your aircrew medical Part I and II done asap, as well as the eye exam (called a cyclo); both of these are needed to get your Medical Category Air Factor 2 - not being able to get AF2 is a show stopper.  You can't OT with an AF2 granted.

Find the 2012 AVOTP message/CANFORGEN.  It will give you a good idea of what you need to do.  The '13 message will likely be very similar. 

Quote
my aptitude test was a pass for pretty much anything i wanted and i chose infantry, silly me (no offense to any infanteers that
may read this), so im good on that anyway.. not that its a huge step ahead or anything.


BPSO will still need to verify your CFAT.

Quote
is it the coc that can be a little slow?  will i have to hassle them often, through proper channels and memos and all that good stuff, about what is going on in terms of my ot?

Possibility.  Best way ahead is to have your file ready (by looking at the 2012 message) asap when the '13 message comes out.  Have the medical done ahead of time, etc.  Once the message comes out, there shouldn't be much for them to do. Supervisor's assessment, CO Recommendation, a few items for the Orderly Room to check and then off to the BPSO for their stuff.

Quote
so today, at this very moment, i am under the impression that i will be around here not only til the spring, but for quite a while after that too  :-\

Next Selection Board will likely be around Feb/Mar.  VOT's usually happen for those selected around the generic APS posting date (mid Jul).  If you were one of them, you'd go to the BTL until you got course loaded on a QL3 (BAQC) course.  We have a new OT from last years competition who came on Sqn this summer who might not get on a BAQC until next July.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 09, 2014, 13:48:37
Hi All,

I've just signed up to this forum. I'm already part of AESOP lounge, but that site is all but dead. Less a couple of posts here and there. I'm in sort of a different spot than DE's and OT's in that I'm doing combined CT/OT. Since this is my first post, some background (not that any of you care).

RegF Sig from 2002-2005. Got out and moved to the UK where I married my wife. Moved back to Toronto and went ResF Sig after a couple of civi jobs and have been here for 5yrs and starting my 6th. I need a change, as this position is stagnant, and the trade is wearing on me. I've also got a family now, and want some challenging, stable employment. So that's me....

Put in for my CT back in June, and got word to be sure my MPRR was all up to date about 6 months later from DMILC. About the time the previous post came up. File is good to go and I've completed my AF medicals. I'm now just waiting for an interview at the recruiting centre. I'm hoping I can get that done before the board sits next couple of months. Going by your calculations anyway, Eye In The Sky. I think I'm pretty much good to go. I have letters of reference from some ideal people, been in touch with folk in the trade on both coasts. All because I'm lucky enough to be working in a place with people from across the forces. Downside is, according to BPSO there's only 2 positions a year for someone coming from ResF untrained.

Seeing as this is the most up to date thread I can find, I think I'll just stay tuned in here for updates.

Any other experiences, tips, info is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 09, 2014, 16:13:44
Hi and welcome,

Yes I'd bet the numbers are down for CT to the trade;  our numbers are still fairly strong.  But...there are still 2 CT spots.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 14, 2014, 11:32:56
Hi and welcome,

Yes I'd bet the numbers are down for CT to the trade;  our numbers are still fairly strong.  But...there are still 2 CT spots.

So I was just able to get some info. Though the info I got was not very reassuring.

They have my application in Ottawa. The reason I haven’t heard anything else yet is because there were no positions available last year. IF there’s any new positions this year they will announce those in April. The person I spoke to said there’s a pretty high chance there won’t be more positions this year. If there are the chances I would be selected are very low, because I'm untrained coming from ResF (even though I have 3yrs RegF time). She said if I don’t hear anything in April to contact her in May to discuss “other options”. FML  :facepalm:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: runormal on January 14, 2014, 11:55:50
So I was just able to get some info. Though the info I got was not very reassuring.

They have my application in Ottawa. The reason I haven’t heard anything else yet is because there were no positions available last year. IF there’s any new positions this year they will announce those in April. The person I spoke to said there’s a pretty high chance there won’t be more positions this year. If there are the chances I would be selected are very low, because I'm untrained coming from ResF (even though I have 3yrs RegF time). She said if I don’t hear anything in April to contact her in May to discuss “other options”. FML  :facepalm:

Well that isn't good news at all. I've been looking to CT into this trade for over a year now,  I've been trying to line it up with my university degree. I think I know who you are from the lounge. I'll put my CT next time I'm in the unit based on that news.

Best of luck.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: DAA on January 14, 2014, 12:02:20
So I was just able to get some info. Though the info I got was not very reassuring.

They have my application in Ottawa. The reason I haven’t heard anything else yet is because there were no positions available last year. IF there’s any new positions this year they will announce those in April. The person I spoke to said there’s a pretty high chance there won’t be more positions this year. If there are the chances I would be selected are very low, because I'm untrained coming from ResF (even though I have 3yrs RegF time). She said if I don’t hear anything in April to contact her in May to discuss “other options”. FML  :facepalm:

Let me say, that if you are enrolling off  the street, then the "information you got was WRONG!!!"  However, if you are applying as a Component Transfer, then that is a different story.

AES Op is currently OPEN for processing through CFRC's, there are positions for the coming year (ie; BMQ starting after 1 Apr 14) available and, the bad news, the selection date for next years positions is scheduled for 1 Feb 14!

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 14, 2014, 12:15:14
Let me say, that if you are enrolling off  the street, then the "information you got was WRONG!!!"  However, if you are applying as a Component Transfer, then that is a different story.

AES Op is currently OPEN for processing through CFRC's, there are positions for the coming year (ie; BMQ starting after 1 Apr 14) available and, the bad news, the selection date for next years positions is scheduled for 1 Feb 14!

I thought they had closed the trade to DE's. Oh well. I'm coming from ResF. Which to me is a bit crazy, that they'll take DE's over a CT/OT who already has 8yrs military experience (RegF and ResF). Has BMQ done, and so could start the trades training right away. It'd be in the CF's interest and would save them time/money. But then again, those of us with experience know how this system works.

Are available positions posted anywhere? ARRRGGGHHHHH Why isn't this process more transparent? Seems like they're treating DE's better than those of us already serving.....

Sorry, I'm just pretty frustrated after speaking with D MIL C.

 :threat:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 14, 2014, 12:20:16
Well that isn't good news at all. I've been looking to CT into this trade for over a year now,  I've been trying to line it up with my university degree. I think I know who you are from the lounge. I'll put my CT next time I'm in the unit based on that news.

Best of luck.

Yup, I think we're the only active people over there.  :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: DAA on January 14, 2014, 12:32:41
I thought they had closed the trade to DE's. Oh well. I'm coming from ResF. Which to me is a bit crazy, that they'll take DE's over a CT/OT who already has 8yrs military experience (RegF and ResF). Has BMQ done, and so could start the trades training right away. It'd be in the CF's interest and would save them time/money. But then again, those of us with experience know how this system works.
Are available positions posted anywhere? ARRRGGGHHHHH Why isn't this process more transparent? Seems like they're treating DE's better than those of us already serving.....
Sorry, I'm just pretty frustrated after speaking with D MIL C.
 :threat:

I'm kind of surprised that they don't have their CT numbers for the coming year yet.  I know that the "forecasted" numbers are available on the DWAN but these are not entirely accurate all the time.  When DMCPG 5 gets the thumbs up to start working on CT files, I have no idea.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Cbbmtt on January 14, 2014, 12:46:36
When I went through the interview process for DE into AESOP and ACOP I was told that I would be competing against people that wanted to CT into the occupation. However, if the Forces member didn't have any experience with radar or the AESOP position then we would all be competing on the same level. CFAT and Air Crew Medical and so forth.

I had the option of waiting till next year when the job opened again with no guarantees or to take ACOP so ACOP I go ;)

Good luck Tune, hope you get it this year.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 14, 2014, 12:48:05
I'm kind of surprised that they don't have their CT numbers for the coming year yet.

I'm sure there's a link somewhere that you can view what/where positions are available. I may very well have been geting brushed off by the staff in Ottawa since I went directly to them. Though I was trying to sort out a clerical error on their end.

Luckily, by nature of the place where I work, I have access to people who know people in the trade. People with more knowledge/contacts/pull than I have. So i've asked them if they can do a little digging for me to find out any info they can. Again, why this process isn't more transparent I don't know.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: DAA on January 14, 2014, 13:05:14
I'm sure there's a link somewhere that you can view what/where positions are available. I may very well have been geting brushed off by the staff in Ottawa since I went directly to them. Though I was trying to sort out a clerical error on their end.

Luckily, by nature of the place where I work, I have access to people who know people in the trade. People with more knowledge/contacts/pull than I have. So i've asked them if they can do a little digging for me to find out any info they can. Again, why this process isn't more transparent I don't know.

It's always been my understanding that the CT process is between the member and their "CT Broker" who works in DMCPG 5 and direct contact is encouraged seeing as they are the only ones who can answer your questions as they hold your CT Application.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 14, 2014, 13:15:20
It's always been my understanding that the CT process is between the member and their "CT Broker" who works in DMCPG 5 and direct contact is encouraged seeing as they are the only ones who can answer your questions as they hold your CT Application.

It'd be nice if I had a broker. Here's my story. Put in my CT/OT through the online application in June '13. Got an email from D MIL C7 in October saying I needed to be sure my MPRR/MED etc was up to date and that MCpl **** was my POC at my unit to ensure all this was done. But they sent it to the wrong MCpl ****. So I went to my CC and did it through them. All my stuff is up to date, and asked my CC to let D MIL C7 know all my info is good to go and they can set up an interview with CFRC. I have not heard anything since. I have not been assisgned a broker at all. Since I don't necessarily trust the CC at my unit I contacted D MIL C7 today, which is where I got the information I posted above.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 14, 2014, 16:34:29
CT's are generally grouped into 2 catagories from what I can see;  CT (T) and CT (UT).  T = Trained.  UT = Untrained.

The only CT (T)s that happen in our trade are people who were Reg Force AES Ops, who've CT'd to the PRes side, who then CT back to Reg Force (not common but has happened).  This type of CT applicant can basically be posted on CT and will have to knock some rust of the skillset, etc but is a trained/proven operator.

Any other CT would be a CT (UT).  This applicant has to do the whole gammit of training; there is quite of bit of it and it is rather expensive because of the nature of it.  I.E. flying costs money.

I don't know the rhyme or reason of it, but each year the 4 entry paths into the AES Op trade (OT Reg Force, CT(T) PREs, CT (UT) PRes, and DE) are all given numbers of people allowed in thru each.  Why?  I don't know.  How it is determined?  Sounds like a question for a PSO or someone to me.  I have no idea.

The SIP usually details the Internal/External numbers for any CAF trade per FY.  CTs fall under External IIRC.

I had a bit of a fight to get into the trade, but I can look now and say it was absolutely worth it. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 14, 2014, 18:06:05
CT's are generally grouped into 2 catagories from what I can see;  CT (T) and CT (UT).  T = Trained.  UT = Untrained.

The only CT (T)s that happen in our trade are people who were Reg Force AES Ops, who've CT'd to the PRes side, who then CT back to Reg Force (not common but has happened).  This type of CT applicant can basically be posted on CT and will have to knock some rust of the skillset, etc but is a trained/proven operator.

Any other CT would be a CT (UT).  This applicant has to do the whole gammit of training; there is quite of bit of it and it is rather expensive because of the nature of it.  I.E. flying costs money.

I don't know the rhyme or reason of it, but each year the 4 entry paths into the AES Op trade (OT Reg Force, CT(T) PREs, CT (UT) PRes, and DE) are all given numbers of people allowed in thru each.  Why?  I don't know.  How it is determined?  Sounds like a question for a PSO or someone to me.  I have no idea.

The SIP usually details the Internal/External numbers for any CAF trade per FY.  CTs fall under External IIRC.

I had a bit of a fight to get into the trade, but I can look now and say it was absolutely worth it.

Hey Eye In The Sky,

I do get all of that. Like when I mentioned I was told there's only 2 spots/yr for CT(UT) from PRes. I think you're eluding to the transparency side of things I was talking about. Correct me if I'm wrong.

What I'm saying is that it'd be nice if someone could give a clear answer to each step in the process, and then for the member to be able to follow along in that process and see the progression, or lack thereof on their file. In my case the ball was dropped from the start in that they sent my initial email to the wrong person when giving me a POC to be sure my info was all up to date. Had I not chased things down I'd still be sitting here like a good troop waiting to hear back from someone that doesn't have anything to do with my unit, file or CT's.

I understand the process can take some time. That one might not get in on the first go round. I feel though that from the first meeting with the BPSO to even find out how to submit a CT (which took 3 weeks to get an appt. itself) I've hit a stumbling block every time. Now it seems if I don't get an interview before next month I'm waiting at least another year before my file will even be seen. All because of clerical errors and misinformation. Not because I've had something missing on my MPRR or my medical (which I'll have to do again if/when I miss this cycle). That's why this process is frustrating. Maybe I should release and just waltz into a recruiting centre, and DE. lol.


Again I'm sorry, but after today I need somewhere to vent. Once again… FML  :facepalm:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 14, 2014, 21:44:18
What I'm saying is that it'd be nice if someone could give a clear answer to each step in the process, and then for the member to be able to follow along in that process and see the progression, or lack thereof on their file. In my case the ball was dropped from the start in that they sent my initial email to the wrong person when giving me a POC to be sure my info was all up to date. Had I not chased things down I'd still be sitting here like a good troop waiting to hear back from someone that doesn't have anything to do with my unit, file or CT's.

I've learned to accept that no one in the CF is going to look after my personal interests better than I am.   ;)

Quote
I understand the process can take some time. That one might not get in on the first go round. I feel though that from the first meeting with the BPSO to even find out how to submit a CT (which took 3 weeks to get an appt. itself) I've hit a stumbling block every time. Now it seems if I don't get an interview before next month I'm waiting at least another year before my file will even be seen. All because of clerical errors and misinformation. Not because I've had something missing on my MPRR or my medical (which I'll have to do again if/when I miss this cycle). That's why this process is frustrating. Maybe I should release and just waltz into a recruiting centre, and DE. lol.


Again I'm sorry, but after today I need somewhere to vent. Once again… FML  :facepalm:

You should try to get some facetime with someone at whatever level this is held up at. 

No prob on the vent...I did it many times when I was chasing my VOT trust me....
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 15, 2014, 14:12:25
I've learned to accept that no one in the CF is going to look after my personal interests better than I am.   ;)

You should try to get some facetime with someone at whatever level this is held up at. 

No prob on the vent...I did it many times when I was chasing my VOT trust me....

I was able to find/view the SIP today. Things don't look too promising.   :facepalm: Can some of you folk do me a favor and retire/get promoted and open some cap space at the bottom.  :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 16, 2014, 14:19:34
Pinged off of a couple people who know people in the know, for the trade (make sense?). Have literally been told that my suspicions are correct.

DND in their infinite wisdom have made it easier for flat face, untrained, no background civi off the street to apply, process and get an offer in the trade far quicker/easier than anyone in Reg/ResF trying to CT. It would essentially be quicker to release and reapply. Though he stopped short of actually saying to do that. I agree, as I'm quite happy to have steady with benefits work in the meantime. But how this system seems like a good idea to anyone is beyond me. You have, at least, basic trained troops with varying levels/years of experience that just need to prove themselves in the trades training. Already in the system that know how the military works. Am I missing something here? ??? ??? ??? :facepalm:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 16, 2014, 14:46:18
I don't know.  I won't comment because I don't know if what you were told was 'true' or 'who' said it.  Different people carry different...credibility.  Lots of people talk like they know the goods when they don't so...hard to offer an opinion on what is fact or otherwise.  But the SIP #s don't lie.

BTW...a lot of those "flat face civies" who were on the initial DE trial are now Cpl's in the Advanced Category and moving onto their 2nd tour.  I suspect you'll see the first of them promoted to MCpl in the next year if not sooner.   :2c:

Lots of people, in the past, who were VOTs, failed in Winnipeg.   Prior service may, or may not, give someone a 'leg up' in the AES OP trg system

Don't get me wrong, I feel your frustration.  VOT, OT or DE...there is no guarantee you will get offered a position in the trade and/or pass Winnipeg.  A lot of it is right time/right place/luck to get in the door.

Good luck!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 16, 2014, 15:38:58
I don't know.  I won't comment because I don't know if what you were told was 'true' or 'who' said it.  Different people carry different...credibility.  Lots of people talk like they know the goods when they don't so...hard to offer an opinion on what is fact or otherwise.  But the SIP #s don't lie.

BTW...a lot of those "flat face civies" who were on the initial DE trial are now Cpl's in the Advanced Category and moving onto their 2nd tour.  I suspect you'll see the first of them promoted to MCpl in the next year if not sooner.   :2c:

Lots of people, in the past, who were VOTs, failed in Winnipeg.   Prior service may, or may not, give someone a 'leg up' in the AES OP trg system

Don't get me wrong, I feel your frustration.  VOT, OT or DE...there is no guarantee you will get offered a position in the trade and/or pass Winnipeg.  A lot of it is right time/right place/luck to get in the door.

Good luck!

I hear you. And I understand they are no longer civies. They've put in their time, and are now tried and tested. My point is just, it doesn't seem those of us already in the system get the same considertation as what amounts to a "new guy". We will all have to do the same training in the end I guess. I figured we might have a chance to get first kick of the can.

As for my "sources". They are very reliable. Again, there's no way to for me to prove that, or for you to know it, so it's kind of moot point. As you say the SIP #'s are accurate. I guess the silver lining is that the trade is healthy because people want to be there. Maybe I can be one of the lucky "ones"....literally.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: DAA on January 16, 2014, 16:19:58
Regretably, that is just the way the current system works.  One would think, that if the CF wanted to fill it's Regular Force ranks, that it would draw from the Primary Reserve people who have already been screened/processed by the Recruiting System, successfully completed their BMQ/BMOQ, successfully completed their occupation training and thus have a reasonable track record with the CF.  It saves in both training time and $$$.

But on the other side of the coin, Reserve Force units just don't like losing their trained personnel, expecially after they have spent their own time and resources on getting their people to the functional stage.  At the end of the day, by doing a CT from the Res F to the Reg F in turn only puts a greater demand on Res F recruiting, as they now have to replace and retrain a hard to come by body.

So there is no real solution to the issue.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 16, 2014, 16:41:34
Regretably, that is just the way the current system works.  One would think, that if the CF wanted to fill it's Regular Force ranks, that it would draw from the Primary Reserve people who have already been screened/processed by the Recruiting System, successfully completed their BMQ/BMOQ, successfully completed their occupation training and thus have a reasonable track record with the CF.  It saves in both training time and $$$.

But on the other side of the coin, Reserve Force units just don't like losing their trained personnel, expecially after they have spent their own time and resources on getting their people to the functional stage.  At the end of the day, by doing a CT from the Res F to the Reg F in turn only puts a greater demand on Res F recruiting, as they now have to replace and retrain a hard to come by body.

So there is no real solution to the issue.

In a general sense that is def. true and makes a good point. However, I am and have been filling a full-time class B pos. from  the start of my reserve time. I have no requirement to parade on a regular basis as my current position is operational. All of my training, less one course was in the RegF. All of that doesn't matter, and makes no change to my situation, or the process/situation as a whole. I am not special.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: DAA on January 16, 2014, 16:53:28
In a general sense that is def. true and makes a good point. However, I am and have been filling a full-time class B pos. from  the start of my reserve time. I have no requirement to parade on a regular basis as my current position is operational. All of my training, less one course was in the RegF. All of that doesn't matter, and makes no change to my situation, or the process/situation as a whole. I am not special.

My only suggestion........

You already have a full-time Class B posn and your CT Application is already in.  So keep doing what you're doing, add on to your quals as best you can and keep pursuing your CT aspirations.  I can't see many people wanting to CT from the Res to Reg every year for AES Op, so one day your number may get called.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 16, 2014, 17:14:02

As for my "sources". They are very reliable. Again, there's no way to for me to prove that, or for you to know it, so it's kind of moot point.

Sure there is; PM me a name.   ;) 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on February 07, 2014, 18:52:44
Beck...whats even worse is when something goes wrong on your finale phase of training ( Otu/ moat) and they need to send you to a different platform...so you get stuck in limbo for over a year and counting!!  Oh fun times indeed...but eye in the sky can vouch for that...lol
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on March 11, 2014, 16:03:33
OK,

Latest update;

I found out I've had a broker for a little while, but my CC failed to mention that to me/felt I didn't need to know. It took getting through to someone in Ottawa that could tell me that they have my file and am in the system. The bad news is they said there were no positions last year for CT AESOP from the ResF. and so didn't expect to see any again this year. Time will tell I guess. It just depends how much time it will take to tell. There comes a point where you've got to start looking into other options. It's hard to put your life/plans on hold for a MAYBE.
 :blotto:


My only suggestion........

You already have a full-time Class B posn and your CT Application is already in.  So keep doing what you're doing, add on to your quals as best you can and keep pursuing your CT aspirations.  I can't see many people wanting to CT from the Res to Reg every year for AES Op, so one day your number may get called.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on April 29, 2014, 22:45:58
Sure there is; PM me a name.   ;)
;D

Ok, new update in my quest. I have an interview upcoming at the recruiting centre! There are 2 pos for CT(U) and 3 applicants. I figure that is ResF....as DE and RegF get different number of positions. Was not expecting this as everything was looking like no positions for this year (FY 14/15). Getting all of my info sorted.....building a little file folder for the interview and prepping now. Going over the emails I have from speaking with people in the trade. Getting a bit excited. Just have to not mess up my interview. Send me Some good vibes folks!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 30, 2014, 15:57:13
Hmmm.  I haven't looked at the SIP but if there are CT (U), good. 

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me, I'll answer what I can from the Aurora side of the trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: DAA on April 30, 2014, 16:08:33
Hmmm.  I haven't looked at the SIP but if there are CT (U), good. 

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me, I'll answer what I can from the Aurora side of the trade.

Yup, someone else posted a comment in another thread about the "internal" SIP for 14-15 being up on the website and sure enough, it's there for all to see.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 30, 2014, 16:12:04
It is a changing doc, the last one I saw had 1 CT (T), and it was for a RegF pers who'd CTd to ARAF, and was coming back.

Is the SIP being open an "oops!"?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: DAA on April 30, 2014, 17:09:39
It is a changing doc, the last one I saw had 1 CT (T), and it was for a RegF pers who'd CTd to ARAF, and was coming back.

Is the SIP being open an "oops!"?

Not sure who controls the updating for that site but it does appear to be some sort of "live" document, which does change from time to time.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on April 30, 2014, 17:54:32
It is a changing doc, the last one I saw had 1 CT (T), and it was for a RegF pers who'd CTd to ARAF, and was coming back.

Is the SIP being open an "oops!"?

I was able to view the FY 13/14 and FY 14/15......just had to figure out where to go...then saved to favs.  >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 30, 2014, 18:00:46
And you're already talking "wet/dry" so I know you've really been talking to folks in the trade.

Good luck!!

PS - MH is riding a big old eggbeater.  Acoustics makes you a pointy head.  Go NASO.   ;)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on May 05, 2014, 13:35:14
 ;D C'mon CFRC.....give me a call and let's book this thing..... ;D

There's a song about waiting being hard....Tom Petty pretty sure I'm thinking of.... :P

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 05, 2014, 18:23:18
No doubt about it...waiting sucks.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on May 06, 2014, 14:03:03
No doubt about it...waiting sucks.

Well, not that I don't want to get the interview out of the way. Seems there's a course running right now, and the next will be in November, from what I've been able to source. Still, the sooner I can get the interview done, the sooner my file will take the next step down the line and into the hands of the people who will decide my fate....

 ^-^
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 06, 2014, 16:50:06
Yep, a 3s course (BAQC) started not long ago. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on May 12, 2014, 16:43:11
 :facepalm: Well, I shouldn't be shocked that with the latest step in getting this CT pushed through I have hit another roadblick....pretty sure I've had one every step of the way so far. Called CFRC today as the email from my broker instructed me to do if I hadn't heard from them in 2 weeks. I figured that I wouldn't hear from them, and that would be the hard part was waiting two weeks to call and schedule. Well, seems the hard part is getting them to open the email from my broker. Interview slots are booked through May and into June already. Bascially told to wait until they call, with no ETA of when that might be.

I'm determined to get through this process...but it has already been one of the least transparent, inefficient, time consuming processes I've ever had to face in the CF. Frustrations have returned.

On that note, can anyone give a timeline cutoof date to have things completed for a fall course selection?

 :salute:

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 12, 2014, 16:44:53
No idea on the timeline for fall, or if there is a 3s course running in fall. 

I'd contact your broker and have see if they can shake the trees...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on May 26, 2014, 15:31:42
No idea on the timeline for fall, or if there is a 3s course running in fall. 

I'd contact your broker and have see if they can shake the trees...

So, my broker shook the tree a little. Excerpt between a couple of folks at CFRC dated about 10days ago;

"....individual requires an Air Factor 2 for his trade, and he already has the AF.  If we can help out D Mil C by giving this individual a higher priority I’m sure both they and the applicant will appreciate it."

Will see what "higher priority" actually is/means.  :D

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 26, 2014, 15:42:19
Sounds like a *move file towards top of pile* thing to me.   8)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on May 30, 2014, 13:23:22
Does anybody know when the hiring boards sit???
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: pylon on June 14, 2014, 22:20:29
"....individual requires an Air Factor 2 for his trade, and he already has the AF.

Did you already have AF2 or another number? I have AF4 and am curious of the differences... And yes, have searched.

Good luck to you.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 15, 2014, 10:47:26
Did you already have AF2 or another number? I have AF4 and am curious of the differences... And yes, have searched.

Good luck to you.

I had Air Factor 5 previously. You must have AF2 for the trade. I'm not exactly sure what the differences are, but it's more in depth than just a regular physical. I believe eyesight is a big part, as well as blood work. Your BSurg should be able to tell you when you go for your Part 1 or 2 exam.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 15, 2014, 10:57:36
Sounds like a *move file towards top of pile* thing to me.   8)

Also more (bad) news for my quest. CFRC in it's infinite wisdom is trying to say I don't hold Gr 10 Academic Math. I was in Gr10 18yrs ago. Agreed when I was in Ontario and went to Gr 10 I did general math. However when I did the UK syllabus overseas it was at a higher level than gr10 academic. When those credits were assessed and added to my transcript, they were I putted as "general education credits". So of course, CFRC can't understand that. Even though I've provided the UK syllabus, with report card....the Ontario syllabus, my transcript and explaination. EVERYONE including the BPSO has looked at me funny when I tell them this and are wondering why CFRC hasn't at least mentioned PLAR or Academic waiver to me.....all they've said is I don't qualify for the trade and can't move forward. I have jumped through so any hoops so far...now this roadblock because one recruiter thinks they know what's best. I am aware that one person has already gotten into one of the two positions for this FY. So there's two of us left and one position. Unless that's also already been filled. If I miss out on this because someone didn't understand how to read a transcript going to lose my GD mind. END RANT.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 16, 2014, 09:37:32
Did you already have AF2 or another number? I have AF4 and am curious of the differences... And yes, have searched.

Good luck to you.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/cf-medical-category-system.page

A - Air Factor - General

8. Aircrew and Non-aircrew Flying Category - There is a requirement for air operations and transportation to express the functional capacity of the member in terms of his/her ability to perform in an aircraft. Pilots and crew of highly manoeuvrable or highspeed aircraft must be medically fit to meet situations considerably different from those encountered by the crew of large, long range but more stable aircraft. The cabin crew of the multi-passenger aircraft have yet another function. The final "A" factor is graded from 1 to 7 and identifies the functional relationships that pertain to aircrew, passengers and those who are unfit to fly.

Air Factors
A1 - assigned to pilots who are medically fit for unrestricted duty in all CF aircraft;

A2 - assigned to navigators, flight engineers, observers and helicopter reconnaissance observers who are medically fit for unrestricted duty in all CF aircraft where such positions are required;

A3 - assigned to those aircrew members for whom a medical restriction has been identified. An A3 classification will always clearly stipulate the specific limitations to be imposed;

A4 - assigned to all aircrew who are medically fit for unrestricted airborne duty but whose duties do not entail actual operation of the aircraft to which they are assigned. If such individuals were to become incapacitated they would not create a hazard to aircraft operation nor impede the safe return of the aircraft to the ground. An A4 classification may be annotated "While So Employed" (WSE) when it is assigned to members of MOCs which are not normally associated with flying. Air Traffic Control and Air Weapons Control personnel must also maintain an A4 category for unrestricted employment;

A5 - assigned to all non-aircrew members of the CF who are medically fit to fly as passengers in CF aircraft;

A6 - this grade is assigned to all CF members who are considered medically unfit to fly in any capacity; and

A7 - this grade is assigned to all aircrew personnel who are medically unfit for any flight duty in CF aircraft but who may still fly as passengers.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 16, 2014, 09:42:05
Also more (bad) news for my quest. CFRC in it's infinite wisdom is trying to say I don't hold Gr 10 Academic Math. I was in Gr10 18yrs ago. Agreed when I was in Ontario and went to Gr 10 I did general math. However when I did the UK syllabus overseas it was at a higher level than gr10 academic. When those credits were assessed and added to my transcript, they were I putted as "general education credits". So of course, CFRC can't understand that. Even though I've provided the UK syllabus, with report card....the Ontario syllabus, my transcript and explaination. EVERYONE including the BPSO has looked at me funny when I tell them this and are wondering why CFRC hasn't at least mentioned PLAR or Academic waiver to me.....all they've said is I don't qualify for the trade and can't move forward. I have jumped through so any hoops so far...now this roadblock because one recruiter thinks they know what's best. I am aware that one person has already gotten into one of the two positions for this FY. So there's two of us left and one position. Unless that's also already been filled. If I miss out on this because someone didn't understand how to read a transcript going to lose my GD mind. END RANT.

Ask to speak to your Recruiters supervisor.  If that isn't possible, ask to speak to the OIC of the recruiting center.  ASAP.  Explain things to them calmly.

Have you considered having the BPSO contact that recruiter?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 16, 2014, 10:11:10
Ask to speak to your Recruiters supervisor.  If that isn't possible, ask to speak to the OIC of the recruiting center.  ASAP.  Explain things to them calmly.

Have you considered having the BPSO contact that recruiter?

Hi Eye,

Here's the quote from the recruit centre via email;

"You still have not provided any proof that your math was/is at the ACADEMIC level.  I have verified the information that you sent us and also had the Unit Personnel Selection Officer have a second look.  Unfortunately the math that you have completed DOES NOT meet the requirements for the trade that you wish to transfer into.

If you can provide me something that is either from a Canadian institution or that has gone trough a Canadian Credential Equivalency that denotes that you hold a Grade 10 or above ACADEMIC Math equivalent I will be more than happy to receive it.  Unfortunately right now, you do not qualify for your selected trade."

Thing is my credentials WERE evaluated back in '99 by my Ontario High School. As mentioned, they inputted the credits as "equivelant education credits x8". I've supplied CFRC with the syllabus from the math I did for that credit, but am still getting this answer. I've approached the BPSO and he asked for a copy of EVERYTHING I had, including CAF course reports etc. He said it seemed pretty strange they were not willing to accept what I had. I'm waiting to hear back from him. In the meantime, I signed up to do the Gr10 math they so specifically need. Not just for them, but for me to brush up. I'm literally hitting a very low-point. I'm not just a single 20-something with nothing else going on in life. No offense to anyone of course. But I've got family, bills, a life let's say, and it feels like it's getting messed with. I was so down on friday that I got home and pretty much slept from 7pm-7am. This is just draining me......wish I could just go back 18yrs and tell my half my age self to just do the damn gr10 math course in Ontario, and that 34yo me would really appreciate it. Thanks for letting me vent though. It's a bit theraputic.

TUNE
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 16, 2014, 10:16:32
I get the "messed with" stuff, I went thru it for my OT and had to fight to get into the trade. 

Keep pushin'.  Well worth the effort.  I went thru a shitload of headaches to get my file to the selection board because some people with rank didn't understand stuff written in black and white and had their own agenda.  Bypass and continue on to the objective.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 16, 2014, 10:33:34
I get the "messed with" stuff, I went thru it for my OT and had to fight to get into the trade. 

Keep pushin'.  Well worth the effort.  I went thru a shitload of headaches to get my file to the selection board because some people with rank didn't understand stuff written in black and white and had their own agenda.  Bypass and continue on to the objective.

KCCO right? Doing my best, and starting to hope that there's a couple more positions for next FY. I feel my hopes for this FY fading fast.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 18, 2014, 16:09:53
I get the "messed with" stuff, I went thru it for my OT and had to fight to get into the trade. 

Keep pushin'.  Well worth the effort.  I went thru a shitload of headaches to get my file to the selection board because some people with rank didn't understand stuff written in black and white and had their own agenda.  Bypass and continue on to the objective.

My fight is lost. Without it being in black and white on my Ontario transcript, they won't accept it. So my options were spend about $300 to have my UK credentials evaluated (6-8weeks) or spend $40 and do the credit at my own pace online. Seeing as I don't have a spare $300 and it takes a while for them to evaluate I went with refreshing and getting the credit in Ontario. I've also found out that the 3rd person competing for the last of the 2 positions is having his interview this week. So.......that's it for this FY most likely. I can only hope he flubs his interview or fails the AF...no offense to him. Here's to more uncertainty in my life for another 10 months.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 18, 2014, 22:06:35
Keep at it.  A picture is worth a thousand words, so for motivation....this could be a 'day at the office' for you or anyone who gets selected for AESOP.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on June 18, 2014, 22:42:30
Keep at it.  A picture is worth a thousand words, so for motivation....this could be a 'day at the office' for you or anyone who gets selected for AESOP.

I would think that pics from the hotel in Hawaii, San Diego, Scotland or the Caribbean would be much better motivation, at least for the LRP side of things   ;)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 19, 2014, 06:34:08
Good idea!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 19, 2014, 10:06:06
Good idea!

I appreciate the attempt to make me feel better. But you guys are having the opposite effect  :D
Well aware of some of what I'm missing out on.  :crybaby:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: LS3 on July 16, 2014, 16:30:03
I'm not sure if this forum is for OT only, but I thought I would pass on that I accepted an offer for AESOp via DE today. Very excited to get things going! Hopefully more applicants (OT or DE) will get their call soon. Time for a pop!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 16, 2014, 16:37:13
Congrats!  Any idea on a date for BMQ?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: LS3 on July 16, 2014, 17:13:15
Thanks! September 1st is when all the fun begins at St. Jean'. 

For what it's worth to those who may be wondering (I know I was), at the time of my interview (April. 3, 2014) there were approx' 15 AESOp positions open for DE. As far as I know, the June 23rd selection board was the first board to involve the AESOp trade since my interview. That is what I was told back in April, so who knows what may have changed since then, or even if what I was told was accurate...   :2c:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on July 23, 2014, 16:10:44
It's all gone quiet in here again.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 23, 2014, 17:15:11
 :Tin-Foil-Hat:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: LS3 on July 24, 2014, 16:38:00
Have any members here been involved in, or have any info about the Advanced Training option for an AESOp "who demonstrates the required ability and potential"? Are those who receive this training exposed to much of a different working environment after successful completion? Ie. would someone with Advanced Electronic Intelligence Analysis Training or Law Enforcement Thermography Training have different posting options, or even a different airframe to work in?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 08, 2014, 19:02:24
Missed this one.  Sorry.

Some people work at the line sqn's after they complete trg, others work outside the flying environment. 

Different posting options for someone coming into the trade; I'd say "not really".  They would have to complete all the same courses as everyone else and go where the trade needed people which is, usually, a LRP or MH Sqn for first tour.

If that doesn't help, fire me a PM.

Make it to CFLRS yet?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 08, 2014, 19:03:40
This is a pretty decent working environment (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zWeOofqgsk) if you ask me.   :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: LS3 on September 21, 2014, 08:13:16
Thanks for the response. PM en route.

Yep, I am at CFLRS right now and am entering week four... Good times. Have yet to run in to another AESOp candidate. I noticed the MOC on this thread is 081, and mine is 019. Assuming it is OT and DE?

Thanks for the link. It was a reminder that I didn't join just to be a master of stitching, folding, and ironing. Pretty decent, indeed.

Back to the fun. Cheers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on September 21, 2014, 13:05:30
AESOP used to be MOC 081 but changed to MOSSID 00019. Good luck with the rest of your training.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on September 26, 2014, 11:07:22
I don't know.  I won't comment because I don't know if what you were told was 'true' or 'who' said it.  Different people carry different...credibility.  Lots of people talk like they know the goods when they don't so...hard to offer an opinion on what is fact or otherwise.  But the SIP #s don't lie.

BTW...a lot of those "flat face civies" who were on the initial DE trial are now Cpl's in the Advanced Category and moving onto their 2nd tour.  I suspect you'll see the first of them promoted to MCpl in the next year if not sooner.   :2c:

Lots of people, in the past, who were VOTs, failed in Winnipeg.   Prior service may, or may not, give someone a 'leg up' in the AES OP trg system

Don't get me wrong, I feel your frustration.  VOT, OT or DE...there is no guarantee you will get offered a position in the trade and/or pass Winnipeg.  A lot of it is right time/right place/luck to get in the door.

Good luck!


Hey, I was a CT not a DE...when do I get my Cpl's damn it?!?!  LOL I hope it comes before i become an "Aviator"   :blotto:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on September 26, 2014, 11:29:19
hmmmm...I wonder if I should change my icon, whats your thoughts, LOL I just realized it is still a sea king
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 26, 2014, 12:50:04
If you are going dry it should be a picture of the greyhound of death.

If you are going wet it should be a picture of a toaster.  ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on September 26, 2014, 13:04:59
weeellllll, I don't like the smell of burnt toast, so I guess it wont be a toaster  :dude:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on September 26, 2014, 13:21:26
Out with the old, In with the new  8) how does it look?  And I found this while browsing the Net......
http://airsoc.com/articles/view/id/53d29b3a3139441c4d8b45bd/operation-lentus-puts-canadian-cp-140-aurora-crews-on-water-watch
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 26, 2014, 18:11:45
That's more like it.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Carpenteer on October 31, 2014, 17:49:29
Any AESOP's care to chat with me about the trade?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 31, 2014, 18:58:59
Fire away.   
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Carpenteer on October 31, 2014, 22:14:37
I've been reading through this topic trying to gain a better understanding about what an aesop actually does day-to-day. Currently I'm a struc tech, but I've always wanted to work on an aircraft. I've read through the aircrew trades and on the forces.ca site and it sounds great. . . .but I know a job description and what you actually do at work all day can vary greatly.

So I guess to be quick about it; What exactly would you say an aesop does while at work? Is it alot of flying time and actual aesop specific work? or alot of prep and picking up box lunches.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 01, 2014, 11:08:16
Box lunches and stuff like that is delivered to the aircraft for us.  We just have to carry it up the stairs and stow it. 

I will talk from a 'first tour' LRP perspective, from after you are Wings qual'd and posted to a Sqn;  maybe a MH community pers will speak up about their life.

- once you are posted, you will have to wait for the next course to start.  Could be a few weeks to several months depending on a variety of factors.  While you are waiting, you will be employed in a spot that has some relevance to the job on the plane you will be doing, or how the Sqn operates.  You will get the opportunity to get up flying (as a passenger; you can't hold a crew spot until you are qualified).  Actually the flying is a requirement now for people waiting their next course.  During this time you could find yourself on a handful of different qualification/currency trg that our community is required to maintain such as weapons qual, CBRN, first aid, etc.

- time winds down and you start your platform course.  This will take you approx. 6 months.  You will go thru a ground phase (classroom), a simulator / flying phase.  Lots of studying, exams at the first and then your system knowledge will be assessed further in the flying phase on the aircraft. 

- graduate your course..now what?  I think this is the part you're looking for.

You will return to the Sqn and be put on a crew and start doing the 'day to day' job.  This includes actual flying which is pretty much broken down in what I will call "crew events" and "pilot proficiency flights".  Crew events are longer and you go thru a variety of different scenarios;  ASW, SAR, etc.  PPFs are more for the flight deck types and we go along to look after things in the back end and perform various crew duties.  These are more 3-4 hour flights where you have time to enjoy the scenery and you aren't staring at a screen the whole time.  Great way to get out of the crew room and away from the computer stuff.  I'd say you can expect 3 flying events a week as a normal expectation.  Could be less, or more but 3 is a safe number.  Some events require no prep work and others you could start prep work some time before it.

While not flying, as a first tour operator you will spend a lot of time enhancing your knowledge, both from a systems and tactical perspective covering a whole range of topics (I won't get into specifics on here obviously).  There are some informal/formal ways we do this.  We have an OJTP we go thru that details what subjects to what levels we need to touch on.

You have a fair amount of qualifications/currencies to maintain as well concurrently.  Some of them are "every 3 months min", annually, etc.  Maintaining them and tracking them takes some time.

Once you are qualified and in a crew slot, you will hold 'standby' crew every so often as well.  That usually means you have your stuff ready to go at a moments notice and are confined to the geographical area. 

All of those things together considered, I would say that 90-95% of your time/daily routine is spent on "flying time and actual AES Op specific work" as a first tour AES Op after you've completed your aircraft-specific course.  The OJTP is the focus and it dictates a lot of what you do, which is also AES Op specific so it is very focused.

The other time could be taken up by a secondary duty or other 'generic' stuff that comes up. 

I would say your time spent "counting drip-pans" and other "make work" stuff I've seen in previous trades is non-existent.  There is more than enough real work to be done.

All in all, a really super trade, if you like flying and can handle it in a multi-tasking environment, sometimes down low and being tossed around by a sporty sea-state.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Carpenteer on November 01, 2014, 12:27:13
Thanks a lot, I find it hard to gather the "true" information from something like the forces website.

Being in an aircrew trade which is focused on doing its job is enticing. How big would you say the trade is? I also heard a rumor that the "working trade" is a MCpl.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on November 01, 2014, 17:39:16
The trade is approx 220.  The working rank is Cpl.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Carpenteer on November 02, 2014, 17:37:20
Currently in my trade there is a bottleneck of PLQ qualified cpl's, which is making promotion quite competitive. Is there anything like this for AESOP?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 02, 2014, 17:43:58
I would say no.  If anything, from the info I've read, the MCpl rank for AES Op will increase somewhat from current #s with the MESIP proposals; all stakeholders had higher #s for MCpl rank in the trade.  However, this is because of the downranking of Sgt-CWO positions proposed.

However, having said that MCpl is now a competed rank like any other trade.  Before the Direct Entry stuff happened, MCpl was a "SOP" promotion one year after Wings qual'd.  Now, it's merit boards and all that stuff.  OFP used to be after you completed OTU or MOAT, now OFP is QL5 qual (Wings after completing IAQC in the 'Peg).
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on December 02, 2014, 14:00:59
This is a pretty decent working environment (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zWeOofqgsk) if you ask me.   :nod:

 :salute: :salute: :salute: I'm back!!! Completed the math CFRC said I needed. Just did my forces (fitness) test today. Annual Medical is done...so retained my AF. Now.....HUURY UP APRIL!!!! Man, there better be some DE positions again next year.....I don't think I could wait in this current position for another one.  The only thing that's kept me going is the prospect of my CT. Otherwise, I may have to look at release and other options. :salute: :salute: :salute:

 :cdn:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: LS3 on December 29, 2014, 20:49:09
Good day,
Just checking in. I completed my BMQ on 21nov14 and made the drive out to Winnipeg from CFLRS. After 3 provinces and 5 states I rolled in to 17 Wing with the standard reporting procedure of no one being aware of my arrival or who I should report to (wasn't included on the posting message). With out much of a hassle that was cleared up, I was assigned a room, and an OJT spot with 435 SOR.

It is rumoured that the next 3's course will start in April. I hope that's true and there is a slot with my name on it. Unfortunately all of the land/sea/arctic survival and aeromedical courses are filled up until april. That would have been a great way to keep things interesting in the mean time. Looks like I have a fair amount of time to brush up on BEW. I have met a lot of solid people who are waiting on their 5's course and have been a great help. It's true what they say "the people make the place" and this is evident in Winnipeg.

Good luck to everyone in the new year.

LS3
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 29, 2014, 22:47:10
I heard August for the next 3s.  Time will tell!

SOR as in Sqn Orderly Room ???
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: LS3 on December 29, 2014, 23:30:32
Yikes. If that's the case, I better look in to getting on the medical and survival courses in the new fiscal year.

Yep, the Sqn Orderly Room... I hear it's a bit out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 30, 2014, 00:50:41
That's what I heard from a guy who just got back from the 3s not long ago...you will be course loaded, don't worry.  There is a system and the CWOs will have your name and put it into the sausage machine.   ;D

SOR is kinda...well I wouldn't be happy with it myself.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: LS3 on December 30, 2014, 01:55:01
So far I have met 2 other DE AESOp's in my situation waiting. Not sure what the DE/OT ratio usually is for the 3's course, but hopefully it isn't too long before we have a full roster.

Yea OJT there has it's ups and downs. Working in an office setting is very new to me, but am learning a fair bit (if you have any questions about leave forms, I'm your guy :P ). On the up side I had the chance to take a flight in a Herc' with more famil' flights possible in the future. I have heard some iffy stories about other jobs, so consider myself relatively lucky.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 31, 2014, 10:01:15
The info I have is that it isn't a question of 'if there are enough people to run a QL3'.  I believe there are a number of QL3 qual'd folks waiting for the 5s course and the school is going to try to get those thru first before creating a bigger backlog.   :2c:

Most of the guys I knew worked at CFSSAT helping with the BSERE etc and really seemed to enjoy it.  Good to hear you got up for a flight, that's what the trade is really about vice SOR stuff.

Either way, make the best of it, perform when you are expected to and don't get in shyte while you are waiting course!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 07, 2015, 07:55:00
This doesn't sound good for new positions being posted in the new year. I will not be happy. Also the ratio (for some reason) of DE/OT was something like 12/2 last year.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 07, 2015, 16:59:23
Not sure what the current TES/PML #s look like.  Or what the SIP intake looks like either.  Like I said, I heard there is a bit of a backlog in Winnipeg right now, however people are still being promoted, releasing etc so the trade is always recruiting new operators.  But there isn't necessarily a direct link to the SIP intake for DE/CT/OT and what is happening at the QL3 level.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 07, 2015, 17:22:40
I've got a pretty accurate link on the DWAN. Unfortunately it's only updated when everything re-ups in the new fiscal year. It did last year and was accurate to the info I was given from my broker. It's just the continuation of last years waiting game.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 07, 2015, 17:28:36
Yes, IIRC, last years SIP was 1 x CT (T) and 0 x CT (UT).  However, I know a guy who was a CT (UT).  Numbers change sometimes and the SIP might not be 100%.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 07, 2015, 17:55:34
The link I had showed 2 CT (UT) which is what there were. I forget how many DE it said there was, as I wasn't too concerned with that number, haha. It was last updated around mid/end of March last year.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 07, 2015, 20:27:13
Not sure why the difference in the DE vice CT intake amount, but someone who is paid to decide those things musta decided to go that way.  I have an idea of why and is has more to do with downranking positions in the trade but...that's just a WAG.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 07, 2015, 20:43:52
I get that someone who gets payed the big bucks for those decisions must have made it for a reason. But in this time of "fiscal responsibility" it seems somewhat counter intuitive to have to pay to train people off the street that potentially won't make it through basic, let alone the wait for courses afterwards, vice people who already exist in the system and have a working knowledge of the CAF. It may be that if required though they'd even bump a DE position to make room for more CT's if the number of applicants called for it. I don't know. But again, I don't get paid the big bucks for such decisions. So, I sit here, waiting and hoping there's at least 1 CT untrained position available for me to fight for come the new FY.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 07, 2015, 20:49:51
Oh, I hear ya.  Hope you have better luck this year.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on January 08, 2015, 10:42:28
Are you talking about me eyeinthesky? I was a CT which from what I was told is pretty much the same thing as an DE. Untill they opened up the trade to DE, Reservists were not looked at ( that was what D MIL C said) But look at me now  :subbies:  I bugged the living crap out of D MIL C and was in the same boat as you TUNETOG and they told me my math wasn't Grade 10 Ac.  although I had taken Electrical in Grade 11 and 12 Which has Academic math. They eventually accepted it. Keep your chin up and try to contact D MIL C to check on the status of your file if they have it.   Good luck to you.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on January 08, 2015, 10:44:41
Oh, and one other thing. Did AESOp lounge website shut down???
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 08, 2015, 12:08:19
Yeah, if you're untrained CT, as far as the trade goes you're esentially the same as a DE. However, I'm more looking at the cost logistics of a new recruit vice a serving member, and military experience. Logic would dictate that it's quicker to fill positions with serving pers. Again though this goes back to the point eyeinthesky makes about the people making the decisions must have a reason for the way it's done. It does seem silly though that I'd have a better chance of getting in the trade by getting out and having a break in service instead of a CT/OT into the trade.

eyeinthesky, the site I got my info off of was DGMP site. Not sure if that's te same thing you're looking at, but it has accurate numbers.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 08, 2015, 14:01:16
Are you talking about me eyeinthesky?
.

Nope, was thinking of N.C. who just got back to the Sqn from the 3s not long ago.  He just CTd this past summer.


Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 08, 2015, 14:03:20
the site I got my info off of was DGMP site. Not sure if that's te same thing you're looking at, but it has accurate numbers.

I have a link to the Basic Production Documents site that has the SIP and OUTCAP matrix, etc.  Not sure which org it *belongs* to but that (DGMP) would seem about right.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 19, 2015, 15:41:11
Are you talking about me eyeinthesky? I was a CT which from what I was told is pretty much the same thing as an DE. Untill they opened up the trade to DE, Reservists were not looked at ( that was what D MIL C said) But look at me now  :subbies:  I bugged the living crap out of D MIL C and was in the same boat as you TUNETOG and they told me my math wasn't Grade 10 Ac.  although I had taken Electrical in Grade 11 and 12 Which has Academic math. They eventually accepted it. Keep your chin up and try to contact D MIL C to check on the status of your file if they have it.   Good luck to you.

It was quicker, easier and cheaper for me to just do the math again. Which I did....so now just waiting for the new numbers to come out. Doesn't sounds good though if they're waiting to push more people through first. It becomes a question of not just, how long SHOULD I wait, but how long CAN I wait.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 19, 2015, 15:45:56
Don't jump the gun and link "this years intake is limited" because there is a backlog in Winnipeg/there is word there is a backlog in Wpg.  We still need new blood every FY...keep your stick on the ice, the new FY isn't that far off.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 19, 2015, 15:51:21
Don't jump the gun and link "this years intake is limited" because there is a backlog in Winnipeg/there is word there is a backlog in Wpg.  We still need new blood every FY...keep your stick on the ice, the new FY isn't that far off.

I remain hopeful Eye....don't get me wrong....stick hasn't left the ice since this started  ;)
But I am trying to prepare for disappointment so if it's what happens I'm somewhat ready. If that's not what happens and there's spots.....I'll be extremely happy!

Let's say, I'm cautiously optimistic.
I appreciate the positive words though.  :salute:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: mongeonrg on March 30, 2015, 22:22:48
Can anyone tell me if I OT to AESOP if Poet is required
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 01, 2015, 00:10:02
Not required at all. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 01, 2015, 16:14:36
UPDATE

So, finally did my interview a couple of weeks ago. Now I'm truly done, and just waiting for a message. Here's hoping it comes this year. From what I've been able to dig up, no BAQC course until the fall. So, until the end of summer it'll be status quo I guess. Any other new stories/news that people have? Been real quiet around here.

Anyone see the Discovery channel "Mighty Planes" episode with the CP-140? Was a good watch, as an outsider. Any thoughts from those in the trade. I found it interesting they used an aircraft with the older configuration. I figured that was more of a security/capability issue, not wanting to show what's all onboard with the new config.

Anyhow........just trying to get some chatter going.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 01, 2015, 16:29:32
Not sure why they went to 407...however the practice torp range is out that way, which has more "ewwwww!  awwwwww!" do it?  I haven't seen it myself, but will now that I have some leave on the near horizon.  While I like the Blk III a lot, there are some things I wish we had carried over from the Blk II. 

No idea on the courses in Wpg, but there has been some slow-down in that part of the sausage machine according to the water-cooler talk. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on June 01, 2015, 20:52:15
I believe partly due to CT-142 mid-life upgrade and lack of instructors (I'm posted there this summer and was told to be ready to hit the ground running). I hope we start pumping out more students soon to help us reach our numbers that will inevitably go down with the upcoming releases and retirements. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: BobSlob on June 01, 2015, 21:07:34
While I like the Blk III a lot, there are some things I wish we had carried over from the Blk II. 

Please do tell =D

Can be via PM if you'd like.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on June 01, 2015, 21:37:19
There is nothing I miss from the Block II.  NOT ONE ******* THING.

As using 407 for the show.  You might as well use them for something, the rest of the fleet is fighting a war.   >:D

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 02, 2015, 13:15:09
I believe partly due to CT-142 mid-life upgrade and lack of instructors (I'm posted there this summer and was told to be ready to hit the ground running). I hope we start pumping out more students soon to help us reach our numbers that will inevitably go down with the upcoming releases and retirements.

Pretty much what we heard, the bottleneck is Gonzo YFR. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 02, 2015, 13:17:27
There is nothing I miss from the Block II.  NOT ONE ******* THING.

RAW radar.  Offline just isn't the same.

That's about it really. 


Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 02, 2015, 13:24:03
RAW radar.  OL just isn't the same.

That's about it really.

It makes pretty excited to think I could get into the trade at a gerat time of transition. It really opens the door for it's next stage of development. Really hope it happens for me this year. Grreat to see the thread come alive again a little bit too. keep it going! :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 02, 2015, 13:36:15
I think we are always in a 'state of transition' but that is cool because FLEXIBILITY is the key to air power.   :blotto:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 02, 2015, 13:44:22
I think we are always in a 'state of transition' but that is cool because FLEXIBILITY is the key to air power.   :blotto:

Agreed,but it seems the newest changes are on a larger scale than maybe more recent ones? Either way, it's still exciting.

Also, apparently I can't spell "great"...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 02, 2015, 13:47:01
Agreed,but it seems the newest changes are on a larger scale than maybe more recent ones?

Not sure exactly what changes you are referring to, but if its about mission systems type stuff, that is all CG at the very least and not something folks are likely to talk about too much on here.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 02, 2015, 13:50:57
Not sure exactly what changes you are referring to, but if its about mission systems type stuff, that is all CG at the very least and not something folks are likely to talk about too much on here.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:

No I wouldn't expect specifics.....just going by what the box told me watching Discovery Channel. Seeing that they were using a mostly Cold War era config, and then showing some of the aircraft in retrofit getting the new configs.  :-X
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 02, 2015, 13:59:52
It is definite leap forward in the way the aircraft does its business.  Blk II or III, I think its a great office to work in...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on June 03, 2015, 10:15:21
It is definite leap forward in the way the aircraft does its business.  Blk II or III, I think its a great office to work in...

Has to be better than the one I've been in for the last 6yrs.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Neso on August 08, 2015, 17:48:17
After much deliberation I decided to submit my CT/OT for AES Op. Can anyone confirm current CT(UT) numbers? The data I found on DWAN says 2 CT(UT) and 6 DE for FY15/16. Not exactly a confidence boost.

Finally, can anyone recommend ways in which I can strengthen my application? I have a technical postsecondary education and a very good record with my reserve unit.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on August 08, 2015, 18:16:26
After much deliberation I decided to submit my CT/OT for AES Op. Can anyone confirm current CT(UT) numbers? The data I found on DWAN says 2 CT(UT) and 6 DE for FY15/16. Not exactly a confidence boost.

Finally, can anyone recommend ways in which I can strengthen my application? I have a technical postsecondary education and a very good record with my reserve unit.

Thanks in advance

Did you JUST put your CT in? The numbers you see appear to be accurate. Be prepared to wait for at least 1-2years. That's the boat I've been in, and my file has JUST gotten to the point where it can go to the hiring boards for this FY (as long as they haven't already sat). That's with me following up and being proactive. Even then, as you've noticed, I will be fighting for two spots among however many other folks have up to date, competitive files. If it's what you want though, stick it out. Just read back and you can see much of my personal experience. Best of luck!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Neso on August 08, 2015, 20:41:24
I submitted it yesterday. Let the waiting begin! Who should I be occasionally nudging to keep things moving?

Any idea how many Reg F OT's you're competing with? Or P Res CT/OT numbers? My understanding is that they're different pools, so you and I wouldn't be competing regardless, if I'm correct.

I just watched the Mighty Planes CP-140 episode you recommended, very interesting stuff.

Is there anything that can be done to bolster your application?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 10, 2015, 11:15:55
Any idea how many Reg F OT's you're competing with? Or P Res CT/OT numbers? My understanding is that they're different pools, so you and I wouldn't be competing regardless, if I'm correct.

Is there anything that can be done to bolster your application?

Might start with paying attention to detail.  He is doing a CT/OT like you've applied for.  CT (U) / CT (UT) = Compontent Transfer Untrained.

Why would you doubt the numbers you found on the (presumably) SIP for this FY?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on August 10, 2015, 11:44:15
Might start with paying attention to detail.  He is doing a CT/OT like you've applied for.  CT (U) / CT (UT) = Compontent Transfer Untrained.

Why would you doubt the numbers you found on the (presumably) SIP for this FY?

You were talking to Neso right, Eye?

Anyhow, it's going to take a while. The best advice I can give is to get to know the trade as much as you can. Look back through this thread. Even though it goes back quite a ways, there's very good info in here. Keep all of your Pers file info up to date....don't let anything lapse. Other than that, you kind of just have to wait until you're contacted by a broker. They will direct you through the steps and when to go do things to get your file to the point where mine is at now. For example - medicals, interview, etc. I submitted my application around the start of Nov. 2013. So you can see how long the process takes. That doesn't mean just wait around. Ping off of your unit every month or so.....then once you have a broker, keep in touch with them about the same frequency. Patience, and diligence. Like I've said, read back, you'll see my frustration levels got pretty high at points along this road. It's not a prefect system.... ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Neso on August 10, 2015, 14:34:00
Thanks Tunetog, I appreciate the info. Good luck!

Eye, what's it like flying with your panties bunched so tightly?  ;)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on August 10, 2015, 15:21:16
Thanks Tunetog, I appreciate the info. Good luck!

Eye, what's it like flying with your panties bunched so tightly?  ;)

I'm going to step away from that one and let Eye handle it from here.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Neso on August 10, 2015, 19:04:00
I'm going to step away from that one and let Eye handle it from here.  :facepalm:

All in good spirits. No animosity intended. I'm sure he knows that.

 >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on August 11, 2015, 08:01:46
All in good spirits. No animosity intended. I'm sure he knows that.

 >:D

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't...  With any luck your paths will cross, and I hope I am around when it happens, it should make for an interesting meeting.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 13, 2015, 10:50:43
You were talking to Neso right, Eye?

Yup.

Eye, what's it like flying with your panties bunched so tightly?  ;)

Flying is awesome.  I flew this week, I fly next week, next month I get to go on a jammy TD, and again in October.  All that extra TD money means I can buy even MORE panties to wear around my hotel room.  In fact, my job is so awesome, not only do I not notice I am wearing panties, I could care less how bunched up they get.

Why don't you tell us what its like for you to NOT fly and have a slim chance of getting a CT in the next few years?   ^-^

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't...  With any luck your paths will cross, and I hope I am around when it happens, it should make for an interesting meeting.

Well, he is doing a CT so...I am sure when he gets it in...oh, 10 years or so, this will have been forgotten about.   ;D  Or, as paying attention to detail isn't important, he will frig up the MOSID on his application and end up an ATIS Tech. 

The funny thing is I was serious.  Tunetog has posted enough times in the past 2 pages that anyone would realize he is a CT hopeful.  I can think of so many instances where paying attention to detail counts in the AESOP trade, regardless of what job you are doing, that I said it as advice and meant it. 

I'll just go back to thinking about flying next week, wondering what to do with all that spec pay and AIRCRA and ponder what to do on my NWD tomorrow that works out into a 3 day weekend.  Hopefully the hurtful comment about bunched panties doesn't ruin all that for me... :blotto:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Good2Golf on August 14, 2015, 07:49:36
...I'll just go back to thinking about flying next week, wondering what to do with all that spec pay and AIRCRA and ponder what to do on my NWD tomorrow that works out into a 3 day weekend.  Hopefully the hurtful comment about bunched panties doesn't ruin all that for me... :blotto:

EITS, just skip the part where you get promoted and sent to NDHQ on the project staff as a SME...at least you'll keep spec pay...  ;)

I half jest, but in all seriousness, the projects are always looking to capitalize on talent and experience, and AESOps are relatively rare in the higher HQs open billets.  That may give you a little rest while Block IV is getting implemented, then you can get back to the line having been part of the team to help load the SGOD with more gucci kit for ops (and get AIRCRA back ;) ).

Cheers
G2G
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: ghostrider on September 06, 2015, 22:32:05
hello everyone,
ive been trying to get into the aesop trade now for about 3 years. I am a former Vehicle Tech and getting out of that trade through a OT is near impossible, so I refused my next contract and now I am trying to re-enter... it was the quickest way, this is my dream job. anyway my interview is on wednesday and my medical another 2 weeks after. but when i was at the recruiting office last they told me at first that i did not qualify for aesop due to CFAT score, but then they found out that i actually squeaked by due to a high math score, I was wondering how much is the CFAT score is taken into account when the board sits, they also told me there is only one more open position for this year for aesop DE. anyway the Canadian International Airshow was today here is some photos from the seaking demo, is this a SAR tech?
http://imgur.com/uZIn0VA,OCCswME,lxtgZ8m#0
http://imgur.com/uZIn0VA,OCCswME,lxtgZ8m#1
http://imgur.com/uZIn0VA,OCCswME,lxtgZ8m#2
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: h3tacco on September 07, 2015, 10:58:34
Not a SAR Tech. The first pic appears to be Rescue Randy (aka a "dummy") being deployed from the aircraft. The next two pictures it is either an ACSO or AES Op; both are trained to go down on the hoist for dry and wet hoisting.

SAR Techs are usually not employed on Sea Kings (though in the past they have been used when Sea Kings have taken Primary SAR for a period of time).
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: ghostrider on September 07, 2015, 17:32:15
thats awesome, they did a great job on there demo over the past 3 days i went to all of them, watching them is definitely a huge motivation. especially seeing them hang off that cable.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on September 14, 2015, 12:04:49
The funny thing is I was serious.  Tunetog has posted enough times in the past 2 pages that anyone would realize he is a CT hopeful.  I can think of so many instances where paying attention to detail counts in the AESOP trade, regardless of what job you are doing, that I said it as advice and meant it. 

I'll just go back to thinking about flying next week, wondering what to do with all that spec pay and AIRCRA and ponder what to do on my NWD tomorrow that works out into a 3 day weekend.  Hopefully the hurtful comment about bunched panties doesn't ruin all that for me... :blotto:

{{{START RANT}}}

I'm not in a good place......again.
Here's an update to my situation. My broker (4th one since I started this) was posted at the end of June. I did my interview 13 May. As of the time of my broker being posted, she had not received my interview results from the BPSO here. Which I asked multiple times if they had sent it. So I kept checking with the CT cell....asking;

1 - who my new broker was, or if they knew when they would come
and
2 - if anyone had received my interview results.

NO REPLIES after multiple emails.

So I finally called the CT cell (early August)....at which point amazingly, they were able to realise that they hadn't received my interview results and that I indeed (maybe) had a broker. So the BPSO had to fax over my interview results (I'm guessing they never sent it). I am suitable for the trade now, and my file is good to go.

Since then I have tried to contact my broker, who has the following answering machine message;

"For ease of communication, do not leave me voicemail as I do not monitor my phone"........who does that, and how is that allowed in the CF!?

In any event, I have had good correspondence with my other brokers, but this one takes the cake. I have asked simple questions like;

"Will you notify me if the positions for this fiscal year are filled?"
"Did I get deemed suitable in time for this years boards?" - because if it didn't due to BPSO and the CT office not handling my file properly I will be putting in a grievance. I went without a broker from June until end of August when I finally called. Since then the only correspondence I've had from that "broker" is I'll get to you, be patient. If you have the time to respond like that to my emails, you have time to at least answer my questions. She tells me to be patient. My response (in my head of course) is that if I had been patient up until this point, I'd still be at the first steps of this process. Now that I'm finally on the cusp, my frustration with this process, and this person in particular is at a head. I want this career, I want it to happen......but if I'm left in the dark to plan mine and my families future, I'm going to start looking elsewhere. In fact I already have. It's still ridiculous to me that they will take so many DE's in a FY and not CT's/OT's. You're not going to retain people this way.

All of this is affecting me mentally, physically, as well as within my relationships with my family.
 ??? ??? ???      :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby:    :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: >:( >:( >:(

{{{END RANT}}}
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 16, 2015, 12:32:53
Not sure how your unit works BUT in the past, I've known Reg Force units to respond more...quickly...ya I'll use that word...more quickly to enquiries on the mbr's behalf from the RES unit RSS folks.

If you are that concerned, and it seems you have reason to be, then I would recommend talking to the next pers up from you in the RES CofC and seeing if the RSS WO can't make a phone call 'on behalf of the unit/mbr' to the Broker.  Right or wrong, that's the way the ball bounces sometimes.  Might want to give it a try.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on September 16, 2015, 12:41:30
Not sure how your unit works BUT in the past, I've known Reg Force units to respond more...quickly...ya I'll use that word...more quickly to enquiries on the mbr's behalf from the RES unit RSS folks.

If you are that concerned, and it seems you have reason to be, then I would recommend talking to the next pers up from you in the RES CofC and seeing if the RSS WO can't make a phone call 'on behalf of the unit/mbr' to the Broker.  Right or wrong, that's the way the ball bounces sometimes.  Might want to give it a try.

Way ahead of you Eye  :nod:

I have started putting together an argument for grievence. Not because I didn't get a position. I understand there may be plenty of better qualified candidates. What I'm grieving is the CT process. It's broken. I've made a point form list of my experience from the time I got confirmation receipt that my CT application made it to D Mil C. All backed up by emails with Unit/BPSO/D Mil C. What I  need to find is the duties/responsibilites of a broker. In any event, I've got the ball rolling on this. There is a another member that I work with here with ROTP in that is dealing with the same broker. Their intent is to do the same, as they have had an even longer, worse experience dealing with the same broker.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: DAA on September 16, 2015, 13:01:21
If I had to guess, I'd say there are probably only "2" Brokers for the entire operation and one of them spots is vacant.

http://armyapp.forces.gc.ca/reo-oer/en/details.aspx?positionnumber=O-21243
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 16, 2015, 13:19:09
And what is it you will be asking for in your grievance for adjudication?  I.E. 'what do you want for redress of the situation'? 

Take the benefit of my experience (including the CF grievance system);  go talk to your unit CofC and try the "reg force to reg force phone call" before you put any time into a grievance.

Think about it and please seriously consider the advice I am giving you. 

Ask yourself "what is my MAIN goal right now?".  It should be "to get a CT offer to AESOP". 

Your main concern right now (IMO) should be to ensure your completed CT application is in the pile the selection board gets to see, whenever the next board is sitting.

Do you know when the next one is sitting?  Not RUMINT...do you KNOW?  Is there a reasonable probability the Broker does know, and is working files for a MOSID whose board is sitting before AESOP, and they are actually managing their time the best they can despite a large file load?  If there is not a reasonable probability of that (in your mind), is it even just remotely possible?  If you don't think so, I am suggesting you to accept that could be what is happening.

As you've said, the new broker just got on the ground this APS.  So, they have to move, take leave, settle in, review files, prioritize AND respond to the direction from their CofC.  Their CofCs priority might not include your exact file.  Brokers are also CAF members and follow the day to day, week to week and month to month priorities they are assigned.  Keep that in mind. 

Let's pretend for the sake of ease that your Broker is managing 100 CT applications.  Let's assume that every single one of those applicants, on average, calls and emails each week and that is takes 15 minutes per week, per applicant, for the Broker to (1) listen to their voicemail and/or (2) read, file, action and respond to each email that they receive from each applicant.  15 minutes a week, per applicant.

That example alone is 25 hours/week of doing nothing other than listening to voicemail, reading and replying to email.  That is what, 62% of a 40 hour work week gone, with not one single minute dedicated to advancing a single file forward.

Don't get me wrong, I've done the CT waiting game and the OT waiting game.  You want to ensure your file gets in front of the selection board this year.  I don't blame you.  You are getting no real solid confirmation that your file is complete and ready to go/will be ready to go on the date required.

I get all that.

What I am suggesting is something that I have done before; cleared up something making a 'peer to peer' phone call. 

So, after taking the time to write this all out, I am still back where I was.  I am giving you advice based on a very good understanding of the workings of the CF grievance system.  Investing your time on a grievance, right now, will do NOTHING to help out your chances of having a file at the selection board.  NOTHING.  The Broker will not, IMO, go "OMG I BETTER GET THAT FILE MOVED NOW!!!!!!!". 

The sum total of  my experience (26 years and change) in how the CF operates, Reg and Res, and how the NCO-WO 'net' works, of the 'lowest level possible resolution' etc tells me that there is a very good chance a quick call between your broker and your RSS Sgt or WO is the first step you should take.  I would bet without a doubt a grievance will NOT help you achieve your goal.


I'll put my experience and knowledge up against Joe Blow who is trying for ROTP who is going out on the head-hunt.  This is a lead I suggest you do not follow.  Focus on the steak not the peas.  Steak = 'complete file before the selection board'.  Peas = 'anything that takes my focus away from or detracts from my being selected'.

My  :2c: from a "been there, done that" perspective.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on September 16, 2015, 14:20:14
Here's some answers to your questions and advice Eye.

And what is it you will be asking for in your grievance for adjudication?  I.E. 'what do you want for redress of the situation'? 

- More than anything, it's just to bring awareness that the CT system is not efficient/not working properly


Take the benefit of my experience (including the CF grievance system);  go talk to your unit CofC and try the "reg force to reg force phone call" before you put any time into a grievance.

- this is the plan

Think about it and please seriously consider the advice I am giving you.

- I do, and appreciate all of your correspondence so far.

Ask yourself "what is my MAIN goal right now?".  It should be "to get a CT offer to AESOP". 

- It is for sure.

Your main concern right now (IMO) should be to ensure your completed CT application is in the pile the selection board gets to see, whenever the next board is sitting.

Do you know when the next one is sitting?  Not RUMINT...do you KNOW?  Is there a reasonable probability the Broker does know, and is working files for a MOSID whose board is sitting before AESOP, and they are actually managing their time the best they can despite a large file load?  If there is not a reasonable probability of that (in your mind), is it even just remotely possible?  If you don't think so, I am suggesting you to accept that could be what is happening.

This is where my current problems reside. Since my last broker got posted, (June) I have had no word from D Mil C. I have read receipts from emails, but no replies. This was trying to find out if my interview results (completed in May) had been received, and if there was an ETA on a new broker. No replies. I eventually called someone on the mailing list at D Mil C. That prompted a reply end of July of "looking into it, MTF." I am still waiting for that reply. I got a verbal when I called again from a clerk at D Mil C that my file is suitable for AESOP and they had not gotten my interview results until after I called and got them on it. They had to call the BPSO to have it faxed. I also got verbal of who my broker was. The same person who had said they were looking into things. So I emailed her asking if she could confirm that she was my broker. As well if my file had made it in time for the boards this FY, seeing as someone dropped the ball with my interview results. She did not just get posted in. She has been dealing with a fellow colleagues file for over a year now. This colleague has had a similar experience dealing with her. Little to no comms and always canned answers in emails.

As you've said, the new broker just got on the ground this APS.  So, they have to move, take leave, settle in, review files, prioritize AND respond to the direction from their CofC.  Their CofCs priority might not include your exact file.  Brokers are also CAF members and follow the day to day, week to week and month to month priorities they are assigned.  Keep that in mind. 

Not a new broker

Let's pretend for the sake of ease that your Broker is managing 100 CT applications.  Let's assume that every single one of those applicants, on average, calls and emails each week and that is takes 15 minutes per week, per applicant, for the Broker to (1) listen to their voicemail and/or

as stated in her phone voicemail "for ease of communications do not leave me a voicemail as I do not monitor these means"

(2) read, file, action and respond to each email that they receive from each applicant.  15 minutes a week, per applicant.

All I've asked her is if she IS, in fact, my broker, and if she can say if the board is still yet to sit this year. She has taken the time to reply to me saying, "I will get to you when I have the chance, please be patient". If she has the time to write that. She has the time to write; Yes/No I'm/not your broker. Yes/No the board has/hasn't sat.


What I am suggesting is something that I have done before; cleared up something making a 'peer to peer' phone call. 

This is actually the point I'm at right now. Going through my CofC. Grievence is the wrong word for the moment. But let's say I've started building the case.

My  :2c: from a "been there, done that" perspective.

much appreciated Eye
Title: OT to AESOP.
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 02:14:03
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I'm currently employed in the army, combat engineer, and have been for the last 6 years. The bulk of my thirties are behind me, my wife and I have started our family, and I've come to realize that my priorities have changed. After much discussion and and a fair amount of research and soul searching, I've decided that it may be time to break ties with the army and spread my wings. Get myself a grown-up career, ha.

I'm leaning heavily towards AESOP at the moment, although I am certainly keeping my options open. I'm looking for a career that offers a fair degree of stimulation day to day. I'm fond of challenges, and I'm also quite fond of being treated like an adult. The army, for all its positives, is geared towards a certain mentality. And frankly, whether it's my age or my life experience, I find that I'm not syncing with that mentality anymore. With roughly 18 years left on my TOS, I've decided that I would like to make a change sooner rather than later. For me and my family.

As such, I thought I'd start picking your brains, see what kind of information you all may have for me. Perhaps answer some questions that I don't yet know to ask.

So, is the grass really greener (bluer, perhaps) in the air force?
Is AESOP a career path that would be recommended? Will it provide fulfilment on a day to day basis? I know that's vague, but I'm hoping conversation will help narrow my fields of questioning.
What kind of advanced training or room for advancement is there?
How long do you stay as a working rank before you're grounded? MCpl? Sgt? In years?
What do you do day to? Are you flying fairly often, running the missions in the recruitment video? Or do you fly once a year and spend the rest of your time pushing a broom around? I would really like to do the job I train for more then once a year. Preferably daily.

I think that should be a good start for now.
Thanks in advance,
Tom.
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 05, 2015, 02:28:07
Most of the AESOPs in our Sqn flew 50 hours last month (we are painfully short of AESOPs). Each mission is 2.5hrs long. You do the math on how much time is left over each month to push a broom (hint: zero).

It is a good career path if you are a self starter, a team player and don't mind deploying (you will deploy. A lot).
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 10:07:11
Thanks SeaKing Tacco. That's music to my ears.
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: mariomike on October 05, 2015, 10:47:16
Is AESOP a career path that would be recommended? Will it provide fulfilment on a day to day basis? I know that's vague, but I'm hoping conversation will help narrow my fields of questioning.
What kind of advanced training or room for advancement is there?
How long do you stay as a working rank before you're grounded? MCpl? Sgt? In years?
What do you do day to? Are you flying fairly often, running the missions in the recruitment video? Or do you fly once a year and spend the rest of your time pushing a broom around? I would really like to do the job I train for more then once a year. Preferably daily.

I think that should be a good start for now.

This may help,

AESOp ( MOC 081)
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=22838.0
27 pages.
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on October 05, 2015, 16:52:35
I think if someone came into our office looking for someone to push brooms around, there'd probably be a fight, a good old fashioned give me the ******* broom fight.  We are so busy that pushing a broom around actually sounds like fun!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 17:58:49
I'm gathering from the chatter here that the OT process isn't a short one. That's rather disheartening. Sorry to hear your troubles Tunetog. I'm looking at AESOP myself, and have just decided to take the plunge and leave my comfort (or lack thereof) zone in the army. Any recommendations for a backup if AESOP continues to be a difficult goal to achieve?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 18:01:50
Or rather, if it turns out to be impossible to achieve. Difficult in and of itself won't dissuade me.
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 18:12:12
This may help,

AESOp ( MOC 081)
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=22838.0
27 pages.
Thanks Mike. Lots of information in that thread. Sounds like it may be a bit of a scrap to get in. Guess I best wrap my knuckles and prepare for a war off attrition, ha.
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 18:15:06
I think if someone came into our office looking for someone to push brooms around, there'd probably be a fight, a good old fashioned give me the ******* broom fight.  We are so busy that pushing a broom around actually sounds like fun!
Busy is good. Busy I like. Having constructive work to do appeals to me more then you could imagine. Thanks Hunter
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: runormal on October 05, 2015, 18:24:29
I'm gathering from the chatter here that the OT process isn't a short one. That's rather disheartening. Sorry to hear your troubles Tunetog. I'm looking at AESOP myself, and have just decided to take the plunge and leave my comfort (or lack thereof) zone in the army. Any recommendations for a backup if AESOP continues to be a difficult goal to achieve?

Thomas just so you are aware TuneTog is trying to CT and OT from the reserves to AESOP, The CT process is literally a clusterfuck. you apply and wait, there doesn't seem* to be any basis of Merit just simply first come, firsts erved. (*based on conversation with various brokers).  I've been trying to CT for over a year and a half and I am at exactly the same point I've started at. Part of this is my fault as I have had to change trades due to medical reasons (vision), because the army doctor gave me a completely different prescription that both of my civvy eye doctors have said doesn't make any sense.  In any event I am now a V4 and can't apply to AESOP. So I picked another trade (in oct 2014) which recently I was told was full and I was advised to pick another trade or wait until the next until at least the next FY. So I tried to switch to LOG/MARS and was told that the trade is closed for CT-OTS for at least 5 years until they process the excess applications and if I want that I trade I either need to remuster within the reserves and let them know when I'm qualified (Years, considering I don't even know where I'll be working) or release and re apply off the street.. option C was to pick a different trade.

While I understand that I am not special, how can someone wait years for a maybe in MARS or LOG? I understand that waiting is part of the army but i'd rather be waiting  because I'm not the best person for the job rather than applicant X has waited longer so he/she is a priority.

While I am a tad bitter about the whole CT process it seems in My opinion seems to be working a lot better than it was even just a year and a half ago and based on reading older posts as well as talking to colleagues who tried to CT a few years ago that the process seems to be working a lot smoother.

@TuneTog
How is your friend having trouble with ROTP? The two times I've applied for it within the reserves, it was fairly straight forward. IN 2011/2012 I simply waited for an interview (I didn't have to do a questionnaire or anything like that). This year I asked the CT Broker on Thursday, Applied Thursday morning and Monday morning I received an email back asking me to upload my transcripts to RMC. It seems that the CT Broker is completely removed from the process, because I had to re apply online like an applicant off the street. I imagine if/when they will write my letter of offer and act as a liaison to and from RMC. I'm actually pleasantly surprised with how smooth the process has been thus far my broker was very informative and immediately transferred to me the "ROTP expert" once I brought up the idea of it.

@Thomas
From what I've read on this forum it seems like it'd be well worth the wait.  DolphinHunter posted something along the lines of: "If I have 5$ dollars and I want a baconator which costs $6, is it better to buy a regular hamburger for 5$ or should I wait until I have 6$ to get what I really want?"  It seemed like some solid advice to me.

Edit: Grammar and reworded a few things.
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: mariomike on October 05, 2015, 19:16:22
Thanks Mike. Lots of information in that thread. .

You are welcome,  Thomas,  and good luck.

Perhaps  this discussion  will be merged with the  AESOP super-thread.
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 19:25:14
You are welcome,  Thomas,  and good luck.

Perhaps  this discussion  will be merged with the  AESOP super-thread.
I've already moved that way Mike.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 19:33:34
Thomas just so you are aware TuneTog is trying to CT and OT from the reserves to AESOP, The CT process is literally a clusterfuck. you apply and wait, there doesn't seem* to be any basis of Merit just simply first come, first served. (*based on conversation with various brokers).  I've been trying to CT for over a year and a half and I am at exactly the same point I've started at. Part of this is my fault as I have had to change trades due to medical reasons (vision), because the army doctor gave me a completely different prescription that both of my civvy eye doctors have said doesn't make any sense in any event I am now a V4 and can't apply to AESOP. So I picked another trade (In oct 2014) which recently I was told was full and I was advised to pick another trade or wait until the next until atleast the next FY. So I tried to switch to LOG/MARS and was told that the trade is closed for CT-OTS for at least 5 years until they process the excess applications and if I want that I trade I either need to remuster within the reserves and let them know when I'm qualified (Years, considering I don't even know where I'll be working) or release and re apply off the street.. option C was to pick a different trade.

While I understand that I am not special, how can someone wait years for a maybe in MARS or LOG? So Now I'm looking at ROTPing a second degree  ;D because I can actually apply to that and hear back by the end of the FY >:D..

@TuneTog
How is your friend having trouble with ROTP? The two times I've applied for it within the reserves, it was fairly straight forward. IN 2011/2012 I simply waited for an interview (I didn't have to do a questionnaire or anything like that). This year I asked the CT Broker on Thursday, Applied Thursday morning and Monday morning I received an email back asking me to upload my transcripts to RMC. It seems that the CT Broker is completely removed from the process IMO because I had to re apply online like an applicant off the street. I imagine if/when they will write my letter of offer and act as a liaison to an from RMC.

@Thomas
From what I've read on this forum it seems like it'd be well worth the wait.  DolphinHunter posted something along the lines of: "If I have 5$ dollars and I want a baconator which costs $6, is it better to buy a regular hamburger for 5$ or should I wait until I have 6$ to get what I really want?"  It seemed like some solid advice to me.
Patience is a virtue I shall be exhibiting in this venture. I'm set on AESOP, and with 18.5 years left on my TOS, and 6.5 years in the combat engineers, another year or two won't make that much of a difference. It's just more equity I'll have in my home.
I had been exploring AVN, but it just doesn't seem to appeal to me quite as much as AESOP. I'll stay the course for AESOP.

So is the OT from Reg force as complicated a process as a CT from the reserves? I'll have to review the CANFORGENs, but I think I may have missed the window for next year as well. Can't win 'em all I reckon.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: runormal on October 05, 2015, 19:39:35
No idea this is mega thread on VOT's. I'm a reservist so I haven't a clue how it works. Best of luck  :salute:

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,118489.0.html

Eye in the Sky is also very knowledgeable on the process.

Edit: Just to clarify the CT process isn't overly complicated, but it just lots of waiting with very little correspondence which makes the process extremely frustrating.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 05, 2015, 20:10:20
Patience is a virtue I shall be exhibiting in this venture. I'm set on AESOP, and with 18.5 years left on my TOS, and 6.5 years in the combat engineers, another year or two won't make that much of a difference. It's just more equity I'll have in my home.
I had been exploring AVN, but it just doesn't seem to appeal to me quite as much as AESOP. I'll stay the course for AESOP.

So is the OT from Reg force as complicated a process as a CT from the reserves? I'll have to review the CANFORGENs, but I think I may have missed the window for next year as well. Can't win 'em all I reckon.

OTing is likely easier than doing a CT from the Reserves with an OT on top of it (my opinion, I could be wrong...).  Track down the VOT CANFORGEN, it was out in June or so this year.  Read it, read CFAO 11-12 and follow the application process.

Important "need-to's":

1.  Call the BPSO and ask for an appointment, or ask if they can get your CFAT scores to see if you made the cut-off.  That is show-stopper #1.  Might be a good time to informally/formally discuss your wish to OT to AESOP with the PSO.

2. Call the Base Hospital and book an Aircrew Medical (parts 1 and 2).  You will need (eventually) to get AF2 on your Med Category.  The start to that is to get your OT application stamped and signed "potentially fit aircrew" (not the exact term...) by a Flt Srgn for your file to go forward.  If you get that stamp it should be reasonable to expect the folk who do the Aircrew med category assignment (AUMB in Toronto) will agree with the local MO/Flt Srgn assessment.  Not a guarantee, but if there is a medical show-stopper it will likely be found during the Aircrew medical.

I don't think you are too late for this year at all.  I would check the VOTP competition msg ASAP to find out, but I wouldn't be surprised if you had until mid to late Nov to have your application submitted.

Start with those 2 things if you are serious for this year; let me know if there is anything else that I can do to help.

CT with an OT is a very different beast than a Reg Force OT.  You're combat arms, so you will see in CFAO 11-12, under the LOTP, you only need 36 mos of service to apply for an OT.
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 05, 2015, 20:26:19
So, is the grass really greener (bluer, perhaps) in the air force?  YES.  Especially for ex-cbt arms guys.  My opinion from talking to those of us who did the dirt tech gig before

Is AESOP a career path that would be recommended? Will it provide fulfilment on a day to day basis? I know that's vague, but I'm hoping conversation will help narrow my fields of questioning.  Its like any other trade, there is some 'not fun' stuff but a bad day in the AESOP trade beats diggin' in and eating a cold ham omelette.  Each day is different;  today I flew 6 hours, tomorrow I have APRV and admin to do all day.  Rare to have the same day twice kinda thing.  But, for the most part it is a really seriously good go.

What kind of advanced training or room for advancement is there?  Just getting thru the initial MOC training and then your operational/platform training and THEN your category upgrade training will keep you busy and learning for 2.5-3 years.  Always something to do, somewhere to go. 

How long do you stay as a working rank before you're grounded? MCpl? Sgt? In years?  The trade is a good place now for OTs with experience. motivation and a desire to excel.  Its not impossible or unreasonable to be a MCpl as an OT 3-4 years after you enter the trade.  Maybe sooner, maybe later.  Depends on how well you do and if you show the right leadership style/ability.  Aircrew 'crews' are a different beast than a Troop or Sqn and it takes some getting used to at first. 

What do you do day to? Are you flying fairly often, running the missions in the recruitment video? Or do you fly once a year and spend the rest of your time pushing a broom around? I would really like to do the job I train for more then once a year. Preferably daily.

Every time you fly you are doing your job.  Doing weather avoidance and vectoring a 4 engine airplane around thunder cells is dangerous off the coast of Canada or 'in theatre'.  Flying can be "almost too much/just the right amount/not nearly enough" and will vary.  I probably logged 400-500 hours the past 6 months.  Some weeks I've flown 4 times, others once, others not at all.  The missions in the video touch on the things we do in the Aurora world and provide a sort of 'general' idea of what we do.  You can do 2 very different types of missions 1 day apart, overland on Monday and maritime on Wednesday. 

As mentioned you WILL go away, there is no question about that.  But that is more good than bad, anyways.

I think that should be a good start for now.
Thanks in advance,
Tom.

Add on to all this, the trade is a pretty good group of people.  Flying is a good go, that's where I spent my work day today.  Spec pay and aircrew allowance, and some TD cash here and there, top it off. 
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 05, 2015, 20:27:53
I think if someone came into our office looking for someone to push brooms around, there'd probably be a fight, a good old fashioned give me the ******* broom fight. 

I am SO going across the parking lot with (1) a broom and (2) a GoPro because THAT would be worth paying money to see.   8)
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 20:46:19
Add on to all this, the trade is a pretty good group of people.  Flying is a good go, that's where I spent my work day today.  Spec pay and aircrew allowance, and some TD cash here and there, top it off.
Eye, you are a wealth of information. Thanks partner. I'll be getting the memo written and start the OT process soonest. I look forward to busting my *** doing a career path I love rather than a job I sorta like. I've been mulling this over for quite some time. God bless my wife for giving me the final push to quit vacillating and take the leap.

Just to clarify on the rank comment: I'm not worried about how long it takes to reach the rank, rather, I'm concerned that once the rank is reached the I'll end up grounded. In the combat arms, Sgts and up end up riding a desk. MCpls to quite some extend as well. I'd like to spend as much time working at my job as possible, before being moved to the 'admin' positions.

Thanks for everything Eye In The Sky, I'll use this info and advice pushing forward.
Cheers mate.
Tom
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 22:02:09
OTing is likely easier than doing a CT from the Reserves with an OT on top of it (my opinion, I could be wrong...).  Track down the VOT CANFORGEN, it was out in June or so this year.  Read it, read CFAO 11-12 and follow the application process.

Important "need-to's":

1.  Call the BPSO and ask for an appointment, or ask if they can get your CFAT scores to see if you made the cut-off.  That is show-stopper #1.  Might be a good time to informally/formally discuss your wish to OT to AESOP with the PSO.

2. Call the Base Hospital and book an Aircrew Medical (parts 1 and 2).  You will need (eventually) to get AF2 on your Med Category.  The start to that is to get your OT application stamped and signed "potentially fit aircrew" (not the exact term...) by a Flt Srgn for your file to go forward.  If you get that stamp it should be reasonable to expect the folk who do the Aircrew med category assignment (AUMB in Toronto) will agree with the local MO/Flt Srgn assessment.  Not a guarantee, but if there is a medical show-stopper it will likely be found during the Aircrew medical.

I don't think you are too late for this year at all.  I would check the VOTP competition msg ASAP to find out, but I wouldn't be surprised if you had until mid to late Nov to have your application submitted.

Start with those 2 things if you are serious for this year; let me know if there is anything else that I can do to help.

CT with an OT is a very different beast than a Reg Force OT.  You're combat arms, so you will see in CFAO 11-12, under the LOTP, you only need 36 mos of service to apply for an OT.
Eye,
Perfect. I've got the right list pulled together then, from CANFORGEN 121/15 dated July this year. 12-Feb -16 looks to be the date for all applications. I'll get the ball rolling on my end with BPSO, Medical, and of course informing my Chain of Command of my intent to OT. I've printed out the CFAO 11-12 application for VOT and am moving forward.
I'm all over this like white on rice. Quick question for ya:
The form asks for a secondary trade choice. Any recommendations based on my desire to go AESOP?
Thanks again,
Tom
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 05, 2015, 22:08:20
This is subject to change, of course, but right now there are some MWOs in the LRP (Aurora) community who are still flying and maintaining their qual/currency.  There is talk about that changing in the future.  But, I would say you can safely count on flying as a Cpl/MCpl/Sgt and up to WO.  I know there is talk about change but at this time, it is just that; talk.  If that talk becomes reality, well then things may change and it could be WOs and up doing desk commando stuff. 

I am not sure about the MH community, I know a few WOs that fly, or were still flying recently (ish).  In the LRP world, we have WO's that are flight instructors as well.  Obviously they fly. 

Spec 1 IPC 4 Cpl:  $5649   ;D

Std IPC 4 Sgt:  $5638    >:(

The MH guys are really rolling in it IMO; they get Spec Pay, Aircrew Allowance ($311/mth minimum), and if they are on a HelAirDet (IIRC) they get Sea Duty Allowance ($311/mth minimum).  On top of THAT, they are posted to PLD locations.  $631 a month in Halifax, $800 and change in Victoria.  The Pay Bay Sqn (443 MH Sqn) just got themselves a shiny new hanger recently too. 

So, in theory, an  AES Op MH (Maritime Helicopter) Cpl who is on a HelAirDet in Shearwater can make $82k/year.  Not counting any TD money they can tuck away.

LRP, we don't get sea duty allowance.  We get to land on runways and stay in hotels on TD.  It's tough, I tell you.

Is the grass greener?  frig ya.  It's all 31 flavours of greener.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 05, 2015, 22:12:47
I would only put down the trade I wanted to really go.  Personally, I only wanted AES Op and I only put down AES Op.  That's a personal choice.

Be prepared for your CofC to try some Jedi Mind Tricks and stuff; it's common.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on October 05, 2015, 22:29:32
I would only put down the trade I wanted to really go.  Personally, I only wanted AES Op and I only put down AES Op.  That's a personal choice.

Be prepared for your CofC to try some Jedi Mind Tricks and stuff; it's common.
AES Op and AES Op only. No compromise. I like it. Yeah, I'm imagining they'll do the usual:
-You're about to get promoted
-PLQ is right around the corner(Jan 25th actually)
-What courses can we offer you?
Etc etc etc.
 
I just hope I can convey that my choice to leave isn't based on the typical "I hate this place and it sucks", but rather on my desire to pursue a career path more stimulating and fulfilling.

-
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: thomasm77 on October 06, 2015, 01:28:08
Hahaha, cry into my Spec pay. Rough. Rough I tell you. So aircrew pay and spec, plus PLD and sea duty allowance in Pat Bay/Shearwater. Well I guess that offsets the Edmonton PLD and Land Duty Allowance. I wonder if my years deployable carry over from LDA to Aircrew allowance? I just recently jumped from the $311/month up tp $441/month for having served 5 yrs at a deployable regiment. Hmmmm, interesting thought, though no a deciding factor at all.

Its really erncouraging to hear that you can continue to work as you climb the ranks. That puts a real big smile on my face. Thanks for that tidbit.

You're really having a hard time selling me on this trade, what with the spec, flight time, actually getting to do your job. Ha. Lets see how fast I can "encourage" the institution to acquiesce to my request. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
Now, to type up that damn memo...
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: SupersonicMax on October 06, 2015, 08:04:10
If you want to fly, have you thought about pilot?
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: Loachman on October 06, 2015, 12:41:11
I wonder if my years deployable carry over from LDA to Aircrew allowance?

No. Two completely separate things.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on October 06, 2015, 13:06:38
I thought LDA counted towards Fly pay?

It is a good time to join the trade, lots of staffing issue due to forecast/un-forecast releases, members commissioning, etc. Right now at the school our annual outpout is suppose to be 20, however we have difficulty achieving that target. The OT process can be quiet long, but don't get discourage and keep track of everything. In the end if you truly want to become an AES Op it will pay off. I've been AES Op for 7 years and I truly enjoy this job.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Loachman on October 06, 2015, 13:38:43
I thought LDA counted towards Fly pay?

No, and why would it?

It does not work in reverse, either.

Similarly, there is no relationship between Aircrew Allowance and Sea Duty Allowance.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on October 06, 2015, 13:44:11
If you want to fly, have you thought about pilot?
I've certainly thought about it. I'd love to fly. I've always wanted to fly. I'm just not sold on having to go to university for 4 years to acquire a degree. That would put me at 41 years old after my degree. Not sure that's take I want to take. Although I do hear Kingston is quite beautiful.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on October 06, 2015, 13:48:08
I thought LDA counted towards Fly pay?

It is a good time to join the trade, lots of staffing issue due to forecast/un-forecast releases, members commissioning, etc. Right now at the school our annual outpout is suppose to be 20, however we have difficulty achieving that target. The OT process can be quiet long, but don't get discourage and keep track of everything. In the end if you truly want to become an AES Op it will pay off. I've been AES Op for 7 years and I truly enjoy this job.
Thanks TB. I'm quite excited to begin this process. I'll be initiating today. I don't think I'll be getting discouraged anytime soon. Cheers partner.
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 06, 2015, 16:20:11
I wonder if my years deployable carry over from LDA to Aircrew allowance? I just recently jumped from the $311/month up tp $441/month for having served 5 yrs at a deployable regiment. Hmmmm, interesting thought, though no a deciding factor at all.

Your LDA points will/should? count towards the AIRCRA; we have former LDA-types and their points counted to AIRCRA.  Deployed time (ie FSP points, etc) will count like normal if you are deployed on that type of mission eg OP IMPACT. 

Loachman, I know a few guys who had their LDA points count towards their AIRCRA level.   ???

Here is the link to the CBI  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/ch-205-officer-ncm-allowance-rates.page

Now I just have to read it cross-eyed a few times to understand it.   >:D

Quote
Now, to type up that damn memo...

That's a start along with the PSO/CFAT score and the aircrew medical.  Unless you are in some admin/discipline trouble, you're CofC doesn't have the authority to 'stop/block' your OT application; the CO has a section for comment/recommendation.  But, as an example, your WO can't say "I am not letting you apply, maybe next year".
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on October 06, 2015, 16:31:52
Your LDA points will count towards the AIRCRA and, I believe, Sea Pay (never received it myself and would want to look at the CBI before saying 'yes' to Sea Duty).  Deployed time (ie FSP points, etc) will count like normal if you are deployed on that type of mission eg OP IMPACT. 

That's a start along with the PSO/CFAT score and the aircrew medical.  Unless you are in some admin/discipline trouble, you're CofC doesn't have the authority to 'stop/block' your OT application; the CO has a section for comment/recommendation.  But, as an example, your WO can't say "I am not letting you apply, maybe next year".
The memo is simply to inform them of my intent to OT. Already done. I'm in the process of getting my medicals and  BPSO booked.

That's neat about the LDA. I guess deployable time is deployable time. I like it.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 06, 2015, 16:35:29
205.015(3) (Points – when in receipt of Aircrew, Land Duty, Sea Duty or Submarine Allowance) A member in receipt of only one of the following allowances:
a.CBI 205.32 (Aircrew Allowance);
b.CBI 205.33 (Land Duty Allowance);
c.CBI 205.35 (Sea Duty Allowance); or
d.CBI 205.37 (Submarine Allowance);

is entitled to the monthly rate corresponding to the number of points the member accumulated in one or more core allowances, together with the number of points the member would have accumulated had CBI 205.33 (Land Duty Allowance) been in effect prior to 1 April 2007, to a maximum of one point per month.

I think this is the relevant part of the CBI;  I wish the definition of Accumulated eligible service had a little more clarity to it.   :stars:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on October 06, 2015, 16:48:22
205.015(3) (Points – when in receipt of Aircrew, Land Duty, Sea Duty or Submarine Allowance) A member in receipt of only one of the following allowances:
a.CBI 205.32 (Aircrew Allowance);
b.CBI 205.33 (Land Duty Allowance);
c.CBI 205.35 (Sea Duty Allowance); or
d.CBI 205.37 (Submarine Allowance);

is entitled to the monthly rate corresponding to the number of points the member accumulated in one or more core allowances, together with the number of points the member would have accumulated had CBI 205.33 (Land Duty Allowance) been in effect prior to 1 April 2007, to a maximum of one point per month.

I think this is the relevant part of the CBI;  I wish the definition of Accumulated eligible service had a little more clarity to it.   :stars:
Perfect. Makes sense to me. Although frankly it won't be a game changer what-so-ever.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on October 06, 2015, 20:06:04
It's all based on points now, my sea time counted towards my aircrew allowance.  Which brings me to my next *****. 

Why the separation between LDA, SDA, AIRCRA?

We all start the same, but LDA and SDA both climb at a higher rate.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 06, 2015, 20:34:30
We had to pay for new ranks and wings? 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Loachman on October 06, 2015, 20:40:35
205.015(3) (Points – when in receipt of Aircrew, Land Duty, Sea Duty or Submarine Allowance) A member in receipt of only one of the following allowances:
a.CBI 205.32 (Aircrew Allowance);
b.CBI 205.33 (Land Duty Allowance);
c.CBI 205.35 (Sea Duty Allowance); or
d.CBI 205.37 (Submarine Allowance);

is entitled to the monthly rate corresponding to the number of points the member accumulated in one or more core allowances, together with the number of points the member would have accumulated had CBI 205.33 (Land Duty Allowance) been in effect prior to 1 April 2007, to a maximum of one point per month.

I think this is the relevant part of the CBI;  I wish the definition of Accumulated eligible service had a little more clarity to it.   :stars:

Interesting. Something actually changed in our favour.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 06, 2015, 20:55:12
Yah.  Someone made a mistake that has NOT been caught yet  8)
Title: Re: OT to AESOP.
Post by: TUNETOG on October 16, 2015, 13:22:24
Sorry I haven't been around since my last reply Eye. Pretty much because nothing has changed.

@thomasm77, you sound like I did in October 2013 when I started this. Also sounds like our situations are very similar. Wife, kids, growing up, wanting something more. I believe you will have an easier time going from RegF. I may be reserve, but I've been full time class B since 2008.

I am extremely frustrated with the entire process. I am going through my chain to try and get some answers. It's up to our MWO, and next step is our branch head (we have a weird command structure here). Reading the CF MIL PERS INSTR 03/08 - CF Component Transfer Career Programs, I've found some things to be completely opposite of this publication;

"The guiding philosophies of CT are that:

.......redundant processing shall be eliminated;"  - yeah right.

Later,

"2.5 Advantages of CT
The specific advantages of a CT are that it
:

-Continues service
-is a faster administrative process than re-enrolment;   :facepalm:
-recognizes past work experience and training....

...2.6 Priority For CT
CF members wishing to CT will be given priority over civilians having no former service requesting enrolment. This priority does not restrict the conduct of selection boards for applied skills assessment that may result in advantageous merit listing of civilian applicants..."

I get what the last point (2.6) is saying, but I'm pretty sure (not 100% but its a safe estimate) that the number of DE candidates selected, I am surely higher on the merit listing than at least one of them. I would've thought my total of 10yrs full time seervice might mean something. We'll see I guess.


Anyhow, my family can't keep sitting around waiting. My wife needs to go back to school to get her credentials from the UK recognized (don't even get me started on that one). We don't want her to start in case I get the CT, because there'd be no point if we had to move. Plus, if we moved anywhere west of Ontario her credentials can be challenged just by writing the provincial exams. So I've started initiating a plan B. Trade school maybe.....not sure yet......but my contract here is up soon, and I need to move on. Like it's been said, it's one thing to be passed over because someone is more qualified.....it's a whole other thing to just be ignored, missed, overlooked because people don't want to answer your emails/calls etc.  ???
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 16, 2015, 13:43:19
Reading that policy, makes me think it was designed for simple CTs. When you throw an OT on board, it gets way more complex as basically you're just a recruit school bypass.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on October 16, 2015, 13:58:34
It should still put the applicant ahead of DE based on military experience. I'm not talking a Cpl who has been doing reserves for 5 years and has the equivelant of 1yr of full time service (thought that should still count for a little something). I am pointing to my specific case (or anyone else) who has years of full time experience. Some RegF some ResF but all full time equalling 10yrs in.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: runormal on October 16, 2015, 14:08:41
Reading that policy, makes me think it was designed for simple CTs. When you throw an OT on board, it gets way more complex as basically you're just a recruit school bypass.

Yup, its be nice if it would be clarified or if they could have a yearly competition or to treat us like off the street candiates even with X spots allocated for the reserves(similar to right now but with a merit board). I've been to told either release, OT within the reserves  (which would take years to become qualified and likely my ct-ot would go through by then) or pick a different trade(s).

When they asked for my gr.10 transcripts  . I asked "do you want my university transcripts as well?" Response "Nope all we need is your grade 10... :facepalm:"

outwit outlast outplay

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on October 16, 2015, 14:17:27
Yup, its be nice if it would be clarified or if they could have a yearly competition or to treat us like off the street candiates even with X spots allocated for the reserves. I've been to told either release, OT within the reserves  (which would take years to become qualified and likely my ct-ot would go through by then) or pick a different trade(s).

When they asked for my gr.10 transcripts  . I asked "do you want my university transcripts as well?" Response "Nope all we need is your grade 10... :facepalm:"

outwit outlast outplay

Good advice....release, even though their Pub says CT's are supposed to continue service and take less time than release/re-enroll.
You'd think Uni transcripts would give you some more points on the merit boards. If I/we wanted a different trade, we'd have asked to go that trade. If there was an AESOP reserve unit where I live, sure, that MIGHT be an option......but alas, I'd have to move either way across the country for that......ARE there ResF AESOPs out there?

Good Times.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 16, 2015, 17:26:09
The only Res force AES Ops are ones that were Reg Force AES Ops. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: runormal on October 19, 2015, 09:44:06
Reading that policy, makes me think it was designed for simple CTs. When you throw an OT on board, it gets way more complex as basically you're just a recruit school bypass.

It is interesting,

I just read the policy and found this.

http://web.archive.org/web/20120131115423/http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/doc/03-08-eng.pdf

4.9 Component
Transfer
Career
Programs
• CT - Career Action – Occupation Transfer. PRes members, both Officers and NCMs, who wish to change occupations in conjunction with their CT applications may apply under the CT – OT program managed by DMCA. They must meet the eligibility requirements outlined in Para 4.2 for each target occupation. PRes mbrs completing a CT – OT shall be transferred into the Reg F and be allocated an external SIP position under DEO or NCM (refer to Table 2)

Similarly for CTs -> CTs (T)

4.8 Component Transfer And Other Career Actions
While a CT is the administrative action transferring a member from one component of the CF to another, it may be preceded by a request for additional career action.

• CT - Same MOSID. Where mbrs, both NCM and officer, are applying for a CT without any additional career action being required because they are choosing to remain in the same occupation and they meet the requirements (e.g., acceptable degree for officers) of their current MOSID. PRes members who choose to remain in the same occupation when they CT into the Reg F may or may not have reached the Operational Functional Point (OFP). PLARs will determine the level of skill and experience of members applying for CT. Res F mbrs will be transferred into the Reg F and be allocated an external SIP position under DEO or NCM (refer to Table 2); and


Eligibility Requirements

4.2 Eligibility
Requirements
• Eligible. To apply for CT, all Res F members must, in addition to the eligibility requirements at Para 3.1:
• meet, if applicable, the CT – Career Program requirements;
• and be a Canadian citizen unless approved by the CDS with request to be staffed by DMCA.
• Officers. In addition, officers must also:
• possess an acceptable degree IAW DMP POL’s MOSID Entry Standards for the target occupation(s); or
• if not in possession of a degree apply for a CT Career Program managed by DMCA that will provide the opportunity for successful completion of a university degree (refer to Section 4.9).
• CT from PRes to Reg F. The procedure used for CT from the PRes to the Reg F differs from that of the other Reserve sub-components. The difference recognizes that members of the PRes:
• have already been processed at a CFRC to the same standard as members of the Reg F component;
• in many instances share common training standards that can easily be transferred to the Reg F; and
• frequently deploy alongside members of the Reg F.
Note: Dictated by the requirements of the individual sub-components of the Res F enrolment processing standards vary. Members of the CIC, Supp Res and Canadian Rangers wh


3.1 Member
Eligibility
All currently serving officers and non-commissioned members of the CF are eligible to apply for CT if the member is eligible for release under one of the items of the table to QR&O 15 article 15.01 (Release of Officers and Noncommissioned Members), except for the following Release Items: 1, 2, 3a, in some conditions 3b, 5d, 5e, and 5f (refer to Table 4 for details). Overall, to be
eligible members must:
• meet the minimum DMP POL MOSID Entry Standards for the target occupation(s);
• meet the medical standards for the target occupation(s) IAW A-MD-154-000/FP-000;
• not be subject to a restriction on a right to release as a result of, QR&O articles 15.07, 15.071, and 15.075, or
• signed Statement of Understanding; and
• have a current Reliability Status (RS).

Table 2 is just explaining where the spots are allocated on the SIP.

3 CT – Occupation Transfer (OT) Officers: DEO
NCMS: DE

The 2.6 Ref says

2.6 Priority for CT
CF members wishing to CT will be given priority over civilians having no former service requesting enrolment. This priority does not restrict the conduct of selection boards for applied skills assessment that may result in advantageous merit listing of civilian applicants to:
• specialist occupations (e.g. Legal, Chaplains, etc);
• occupations for which national assessments are conducted (e.g.
Naval Officer Assessment Board (NOAB), Military Police); or
• Musicians (auditions).

However based on the trades listed this isn't your typical merit board this is a supplementary board after the fact.



So unless this reference has been superseded and rewritten, I'm under the impression that if the trade is open to candidates off the street, I should be given a spot just like that? That honestly doesn't seem right, because it seems too easy and too simple.


Edit: Reformatting

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 19, 2015, 10:09:58
Yes, but your still subject to external sip, not the internal sip. Notice how we OT people every year, and it only takes about 8 months, while ct+OT takes years? You get priority over civilians with no prior service but that's about it.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: runormal on October 19, 2015, 10:37:06
Yes, but your still subject to external sip, not the internal sip. Notice how we OT people every year, and it only takes about 8 months, while ct+OT takes years? You get priority over civilians with no prior service but that's about it.

I'm very confused. Since the vast majority of the spots for The CAF are filled with civilians with no prior experience, shouldn't this on average be an even quicker process than a OT within the Reg-F?Essentially I'm re applying to Reg-F but the CT process recognizes that I've already been processed, got the security clearance etc and they can easily view whether or not I'm a thudfuck or a productive member within the CAF. So by the policy, if they can hire Joe Smith off the street who just finished high-school or a reservist then they'll take the reservist and there is no reason for selection boards.

I've looked at the SIP in depth last year (Haven't for this FY) and for almost every trade it appeared that it that the bulk of the spots where allocated for DE/DEO and then they'd slowly filter down to things such as NCM SEP, ROTP, CEOTP and then then there would be a handful of spots for CT (T) and then even less few for CT (U) and then the Internal SIP had everything else for movements within the reg-f. Once the CT(U) spots for the year were filled, that was it. There'd be around 50 spots for off the street and only 1-4 for CT(U). By the policy shouldn't one of those 50 spots be given to CT(U)/CT(T)?

Based on my observations of viewing last years SIP, I'm under the impression that once the matrix for the SIP for FY built, it isn't changed that much and the only way CT(U) seems to get additional spots is if it they don't hire enough off the street or if they don't get enough CT(T)'s (Which happened last year for ACISS). I've read the comments and it would say spots "Allocated after request from DMCPG due to excess applicants" or "spots allocated because of X candidate with a XYZ".


Edit:
I should add I'm not actively pursuing a CT for AES-OP. I was (March 2014), but after I was given a v4 I'm now ineligible. I switched back to NAV COMM in OCT 2014 with an initial plan of doing 5-10 years as an NCM and then trying to commission for either LOGS/MARS.  I realize that this isn't exactly the best spot to discussing the CT Process however I'm at a cross road of what to do now.

Recently I rcvd this

"Please be advised that for this fiscal year (FY 15/16), there is no CT intake for untrained 00299-NAV COMM candidates."

I could either wait longer, or add additional Navy Ops trades, After reading discussions here and talking with friends, supervisors, colleagues and family I was suggested to just apply as an officer right away.

So i tried and instantly received this.

"I am the broker for LOG and MARS… and I have some bad news. Both of these trades are closed to CT-OT and will remain so for the foreseeable future, (i.e. next 5 years). You have a few options to get into the RegF as LOG or MARS:

1.      OT to either of these trades within the ResF and let us know that you have done so, (this will still take a few years); or

2.      Release from the primary reserves entirely, then 6 months later, apply to the RegF through a recruiting centre. I don’t normally recommend this option because you’ll have to wait 6 months to even begin the application process, and there are absolutely no guarantees that you’ll be offered a job.

The other option, of course, is to apply for different trades. All of the combat arms and HCA are open for officer trades."

So now not only have I lost my spot in the line for Nav Comm I'm at the exact same point where I started. I'm just trying to understand the reference/policy before I do my next move..
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 19, 2015, 13:11:45
Probably way off topic now, but the CT people aren't the same as the OT people who aren't the same as the off the street people.

Keep in mind the CAF doesn't owe you a job when you're OTing. They make an effort to recognize your experience but you're still going to need the same QL3 course as a civilian off the street, you just are able to do it right away because you don't need BMQ. Needs of the service always come first, and if they are full for a certain trade, or the training system can't handle more people for the year, you don't get a job just like everyone else. Like it or not, PRes members don't have an opportunity to get in via internal SIP numbers. You'll need to follow the advice of your broker, it's pretty clear. You're not getting those trades unless you're already qualified.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: runormal on October 19, 2015, 19:16:13
Probably way off topic now, but the CT people aren't the same as the OT people who aren't the same as the off the street people.

Keep in mind the CAF doesn't owe you a job when you're OTing. They make an effort to recognize your experience but you're still going to need the same QL3 course as a civilian off the street, you just are able to do it right away because you don't need BMQ. Needs of the service always come first, and if they are full for a certain trade, or the training system can't handle more people for the year, you don't get a job just like everyone else. Like it or not, PRes members don't have an opportunity to get in via internal SIP numbers. You'll need to follow the advice of your broker, it's pretty clear. You're not getting those trades unless you're already qualified.

Fair enough, I totally understand. I think the root of my disappointment is that it is far too easy for a member to submit at CT-OT and then when nothing happens after a year it is frustrating to see people off the street get in with quicker for the same trade, while having relevant military experience, higher education and positive reviews from both your unit and other units.  I think a better system would be to have CT/OT's to be processed through the CFRC, acknowledging that the file is fully complete after an interview (possibly a CFAT if it is too old and not done electronically) and then use the existing merit board system and if you aren't competitive, either fix yourself or pick a different trade. In any event it is what is, and bitching on army.ca isn't going to change anything.

I do think that the CT system is fairly good for CT (T)'s to CT(T)'s because it is the best of both worlds. We have a cpl with x,y,z quals can any unit use them, yup send cpl xxx to unit z. Or no we can't try again later and then you wait. If you took the CT/OTs out of DMCPG responsibility they would have more time to handle CT (T)s and waste less time dealing with CT/OT's. Furthermore the Res F could better augment the Reg-F and the Reg-F would get the needed pers quicker.

Re: LOG/MARS, I'm aware but it honestly isn't realistic, I have no idea where I'll be career wise or location wise for the long term, I can't honestly pick a unit and say that I'll stay there, furthermore I'm also done school and no longer have summers to give to the army. It isn't realistic for me to expect my employer to hold my job at an entry level position while I go on course for LOG/MARS when countless people would gladly do the job. Contract work could be an option but again I'd be doing this all for hopes and dreams that I'll even be a competitive applicant for said trades. For the short term it is much more advantageous for me to stay as a qualified CPL, that way should I move or go for a masters I'll be able to find CLS A work. 

It is what its is, I picked the element and the trade that I picked. With that being said, I am happy as a reservist in my current trade although had I of known that it would it would of been this difficult to transfer after school I would of joined the NAV RES in the beginning. In any event I'll pick the three Navy OP trades again and wait out.

Cheers and thanks for the assistance/advice,
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 19, 2015, 19:55:15
If I was you and really wanted MARS, I'd transfer to the NavRes now, join MARS, finish your Masters and CT after. Then you can have everything you want.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 20, 2015, 16:04:36
Mods,

Any chance of moving the CT/OT stuff to a more suitable thread?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on October 22, 2015, 19:59:17
Mods,

Any chance of moving the CT/OT stuff to a more suitable thread?

Yeah, probably best. Those of us eager to get in the trade have sort of hijacked the thread with our CT experiences.

Let's get back to the meat of the thread. How are the updates/upgrades going in the trade this year? Can you see anything on the horizon in the new FY, or is everything kind of up in the air now because of the recent election results?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 22, 2015, 20:46:27
For now it's "ops normal".  I imagine what changes will come will be known mid-Nov ' is.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on October 22, 2015, 22:20:20
So far the only "big" change coming into the trade other than MESIP is the BAQC & IAQC will return to a combine course 6 months ish, and the trainer will be upgraded to the PCT (Proficiency Crew Trainer) already used in Comox and Greenwood. The course will go down from 6 CT-142 flights to 2, everything else will be done in the PCT. The IAQC phase will have to be taught in Greenwood until Winnipeg gets its own PCT (by next summer?). So that mean the 402 instructors will have permanent accommodations in ZX as well...Sigh! When I left the LRP world I seriously thought not going to ZX for a long time; guess not!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 22, 2015, 23:43:36
Is OFP still moving back to post-MOAT/OTU (along with Wings)?  Read the SAAWG minutes but wasn't sure when/if that was changing back as well.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on October 22, 2015, 23:47:42
The students will still be receiving their wings here in Winnipeg. The idea was to have the wing issued once MOAT/OTU qualified but it got shut down.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 23, 2015, 00:06:20
Rog.   Sounds like you guys may as well move permanently to the valley.   8)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on October 23, 2015, 00:12:18
That's what I said! But the ACSO trade wouldn't let us go away that easy.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on October 23, 2015, 06:49:07
It only makes sense.  If you are using the same kit to push the kids through Winnipeg, why not have them trained in ZX permanently?

No need to fly an AES Op prior to MOAT/OTU.  None.

Did Winnipeg get the memo that the PCTs are booked solid for the next two years?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 23, 2015, 17:59:41
That type of info can't make across the parking lot let alone cross provinces!! 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: peterpan on November 20, 2015, 13:52:46
OTing is likely easier than doing a CT from the Reserves with an OT on top of it (my opinion, I could be wrong...).  Track down the VOT CANFORGEN, it was out in June or so this year.  Read it, read CFAO 11-12 and follow the application process.

Important "need-to's":

1.  Call the BPSO and ask for an appointment, or ask if they can get your CFAT scores to see if you made the cut-off.  That is show-stopper #1.  Might be a good time to informally/formally discuss your wish to OT to AESOP with the PSO.

2. Call the Base Hospital and book an Aircrew Medical (parts 1 and 2).  You will need (eventually) to get AF2 on your Med Category.  The start to that is to get your OT application stamped and signed "potentially fit aircrew" (not the exact term...) by a Flt Srgn for your file to go forward.  If you get that stamp it should be reasonable to expect the folk who do the Aircrew med category assignment (AUMB in Toronto) will agree with the local MO/Flt Srgn assessment.  Not a guarantee, but if there is a medical show-stopper it will likely be found during the Aircrew medical.

I don't think you are too late for this year at all.  I would check the VOTP competition msg ASAP to find out, but I wouldn't be surprised if you had until mid to late Nov to have your application submitted.

Start with those 2 things if you are serious for this year; let me know if there is anything else that I can do to help.

CT with an OT is a very different beast than a Reg Force OT.  You're combat arms, so you will see in CFAO 11-12, under the LOTP, you only need 36 mos of service to apply for an OT.


Not sure in all cases Eye, but in my case I did a CT/OT and it took almost exactly one year to the date. That was almost 4 years ago. And i did A lOT of calling and emailing DmilC. But then again , you Know I am my own "special" case  :facepalm:   And yes, for those of you looking to get into the trade, EYEINTHESKY is very knowledgeable about the trade and CF in general, and has helped me out a great bit.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 21, 2015, 14:23:59
Things have changed in the CT world since you did the jump.  You're as likely to find baby unicorns in your bathroom in the morning as you are to get a phone call thru to the CT cell.   >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on December 08, 2015, 16:24:27
Things have changed in the CT world since you did the jump.  You're as likely to find baby unicorns in your bathroom in the morning as you are to get a phone call thru to the CT cell.   >:D

 [:D
So...I got an email last week asking that my MPRR be updated to reflect my latest AF Medical that I did mid November. As soon as I got it, I called med records and they made the change on the spot. It is reflected now, and my (supposed) broker is aware. Here is what was at the bottom of that email chain. The bottom of this chain was dated Nov 17;

Good day,

Subject member is selected as an Untrained Component Transfer (CT) for MOSID 00019 AES OP.   Attached is a copy of the mbr's PRes MPRR.

Mbr will be posted to the ***. Please provide the following information:

a. UIC, posting location (Base/Wing):
b. Move type (No Cost, Authorized, Prohibited or Restricted): 
c. Preferred date (prior to 31 Mar 2016).  Note that the COS date will be the date after the transfer date:


I am now just waiting for the official message. I start xmas leave on friday....hoping I hear before then. If not....the new year is looking bright!  :nod:  :gottree: :subbies:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 08, 2015, 19:59:57
Hey congrats!  I am assuming XXX starts with a B?

Any questions you have, fire away either here or PM me.  I'll answer what I can.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on December 16, 2015, 21:04:49
Hey congrats!  I am assuming XXX starts with a B?

Any questions you have, fire away either here or PM me.  I'll answer what I can.

Official confirmation came Tuesday. I'm in! Become Reg F in Feb. then the wait for course. Feeling pretty excited about it. What a process to get here. Already started my Christmas leave, so have a bunch of paperwork to get done as soon as I get back. Thanks to everyone in here who has given me info about the trade. Also to all those who helped keep me sane when the CT process was frustrating me to the point of wanting to give up.

Can't wait to switch uniforms. I've always looked better in blue anyways. Merry Christmas all!!!  :subbies:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: AirDet on December 16, 2015, 21:53:00
If it makes you guys a little happier, we're looking at upgrading Gonzo with some AESOpish sensors!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on December 17, 2015, 06:41:17
A total waste of $$$$.   There is absolutely no need to fly an AES Op prior to MOAT/OTU. 

You can use the simulators to give them the basic skills that will be reinforced at 404 and 406.   
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on December 17, 2015, 11:26:10
Just to clarify,

We're not doing any update on the Gonzo. In matter of fact we've slashed up to 50% of the QS involving the Gonzo. The new QS will focus on the PCT where the students will be challenge on various sensors (button smashing) via scnenarios.

The flights will still be conducted on the Gonzo but no more than 5 flights for basic radar work, homings, emergency scenarios and aimanship. Kinda to get the student an idea of what military flying is about and what a radar picture looks like in real life. The idea is to have 2 checkrides (1x Gonzo and 1x PCT in ZX) and the BAQC & IAQC will be combine into 1 course just like BAC used to be. The idea is to have the students checkride here in Winnipeg on the Gonzo, then the Staff and students will go to Greenwood for up to 1 month and teach the second phase involving the PCT.

So far, sadly we've only been able to teach 40% of the current QS and can't even meet our annual wing grad student outpout of 22. Hence the reason of all the changes and the increase of students per courses from 4 (IAQC) to 10 or 12 (we're still undecided). Spring 2016 will be very busy for us, new QS plus all the instructors will get qualified on the PCT in Greenwood as well while maintaining our Gonzo quals.
 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on December 17, 2015, 11:56:58
I should clarify.  402 is a waste of $$$ in terms of training AES Ops. 

Shut'er down and move everything to Greenwood.  SIM the basic course then fly on MOAT/OTU.   The savings would be enormous!

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on December 17, 2015, 12:07:10
We did offer that COA, however it got shut down by 2 CAD. We also got briefed on the futur aircrew training (or whatever it's called). 2 CAD is working on revamping the pilot,ACSO & AESOP training and combining part of the training as a crew (kinda like MOAT) possibly using a King Air platform with radar, EO and maybe ESM on it. CAE is coming to interview us to gather a better understanding for our trade skills and requirements. My bet is the school would move to portage as well, again anything can happen but that's my personnal guess.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on December 17, 2015, 12:36:38
Sounds like a decent plan, but how does that fit in for the TAC Hel, SAR, Fighter, and transport bunch?

Save the King Air platform for the SOF guys and stop wasting resources on something that isn't needed!  Just my  :2c:.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 17, 2015, 12:58:22
Save the King Air platform for the SOF guys and stop wasting resources on something that isn't needed!  Just my  :2c:.

I agree and also agree on moving all initial occ trg to Greenwood.  It should be long enough to post people;  fling-wing types could be APd to YAW for OTU, and still home on the weekends to see kids and conduct Marriage Maintenance.  After MOAT/OTU, the folks posted to the west coast would then do the free trip gig to their homeplate.

This would also free up Gonzo YFR for the ACSOs.  Phase 2 of the new (old?) BAC could be all PCT and OMS, although I am not 100% sold on the idea of folks getting wings without ever having operated in the airborne battlespace.

To enhance the way people are selected, the trade should/could introduce a 'selection week', along the line of what SAR Techs do (minus all that physical crap...errrr...trg).  Input from TDOs, PSOs and trade SMEs to generate scenarios for the week that would exercise and assess aptitude in CRM, SA, basic operator skills (i.e. homings, analyzing ESM parameters, extracting/logging data on EO, etc).  Throw in some basic theory lectures with tests (assess mbr's learning/memory ability).  Score everyone, write a 9-12 line assessment para(mini course report).  Everyone gets ranked for that selection year.  PSOs get to see the selection score/write up as well as the actual selection board.

Might sound like it costs money up front, but better to use that selection tool than the 5s, after putting everyone thru BAEQ, AMT, and BAQC and then finding out the mbr doesn't have the aptitude to succeed in the trade.   :2c:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on December 17, 2015, 14:21:57
EITS -  Wings would be awarded post-MOAT/OTU.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on December 17, 2015, 14:42:39
Basically the only reason the students will fly on the Gonzo is to receive their wings. Can't remember where but we read that in order to receive Wing level grad you must have airborne operations. For now, the CT-142 is the easiest way to go.

EITS - The main issue is not getting decent candidates, but finding people to join this trade. In other words not enough applications. I know it's not fun to hear this especially for people who have been paciently waiting up to 1 year to get into this trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 17, 2015, 14:54:24
EITS -  Wings would be awarded post-MOAT/OTU.

Ya; basically everything is going back to the pre-DEA trial stuff.  One course (BAQC+ aka BAC), Wings/OFP after MOAT/OTU.

However..part of the trade being able to do direct entry/Avr etc it had to adopt a QL3 and QL5 type training methodology.  I don't recall if 'how we are going to maintain a QL3 qual was covered in the SAAWG minutes.

Why the move back to the 2009 way of doing things?  $$ and effort was put into changing things to the current state. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 17, 2015, 15:13:58
Basically the only reason the students will fly on the Gonzo is to receive their wings. Can't remember where but we read that in order to receive Wing level grad you must have airborne operations. For now, the CT-142 is the easiest way to go.

EITS - The main issue is not getting decent candidates, but finding people to join this trade. In other words not enough applications. I know it's not fun to hear this especially for people who have been paciently waiting up to 1 year to get into this trade.

I just hope "we" aren't lowering our expectations too much at each stage (selection, Initial Occ Trg, MOAT/OTU) before the operator gets to a crew.  Crew life is busy enough, the less time us line guys have to invest 'babysitting' the more time we can spend effectively;  OJTPs, continuation training, maintaining currencies, etc.  Not that the TE life is all sunny vacations, don't get me wrong.  I know it must suck to be at 1 CFFTS and bouncing back and forth to ZX and I heard what the 404 folks are doing in early '16.  Busy times.

I thought the bottle neck right now was Gonzo YFR and serviceability?  I know we had 4 tails when I went thru and only lost flights to Wx. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on December 17, 2015, 15:16:17
EITS,

You're right about the QL3/5. Forgot to mention even tough it will be "1" course, it will be 2 phases. Phase 1 QL3 and phase 2 QL4 and MOAT/OTU QL5. This will be work on in the spring during the QS board etc.

The reason is because of wait time between BAQC and IAQC. Students are still required to remember the stuff learned on BAQC when they show up on IAQC. However we had students who had to wait up to a 1 year before getting course loaded on IAQC, and that's unsat IMO.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on December 17, 2015, 15:21:50
Serv is slowly getting better and in fact right now we're chasing our YFR due to weather. The bottle neck right now is having 12 students BAQC qualified awaiting IAQC. These guys will be our priority until next summer. The next BAQC will start in Apr 16.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 17, 2015, 15:34:42
EITS,

You're right about the QL3/5. Forgot to mention even tough it will be "1" course, it will be 2 phases. Phase 1 QL3 and phase 2 QL4 and MOAT/OTU QL5. This will be work on in the spring during the QS board etc.

Okay, so Wings after QL5.  I'm assuming OFP will remain "QL5", and spec pay will remain QL5 as well.  This makes a lot of sense now.  Hopefully the QSWB will include a MH type from both the TE and line Sqns, an ASO from the TE and line Sqns, and a NASO from the TE and line Sqns as well. 

Quote
The reason is because of wait time between BAQC and IAQC. Students are still required to remember the stuff learned on BAQC when they show up on IAQC. However we had students who had to wait up to a 1 year before getting course loaded on IAQC, and that's unsat IMO.

That is a long wait.  Any chance of IAQC going back to 8 vice 4?

Despite everything, it sounds like there is some thought and action on the initial occ trg stuff.  I don't think anyone 'has it easy' right now between Wpg, the MOAT/OTU folks or line sqns.  Be an interesting year!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on December 17, 2015, 16:44:13
Well damn. Sounds like you folks are starved for people, and then there's those of us here pacing the fence line waiting for word on whether we can jump to those greener pastures.

Everything is done on my end. Just waiting on a meeting with the BPSO, hopefully before I'm off to PLQ army at end Jan. That won't leave much time for me to stress on what the answer is from the forces. It'll be rather busy couple months, and if all goes well I should be getting an answer sometime in April/May. Probably right in the middle of high readiness ex season. Ha.


Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 17, 2015, 17:01:34
I think we are Red, or Amber at least.  A small trade; it doesn't take many people releasing, or leaving for UTPNCM etc to affect us quickly.

Good luck with the OT!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on December 17, 2015, 17:05:35
I think we are Red, or Amber at least.  A small trade; it doesn't take many people releasing, or leaving for UTPNCM etc to affect us quickly.

Good luck with the OT!
Thanks Eye. Its a matter of finding out whether the engineers will let me go now. We shall see.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 17, 2015, 17:21:56
"They" don't get much say, IMO;  there is an established OUTCAP that they don't control, based on the trades TES.  All your CO can say is "I support" or "I don't support".  The PSO interview is a good thing to be well-prepared and turned out for.  I had a binder with all my 'research' material in it, I spoke to AES Ops very close to my interview, I wore 3B (that was DOTD for the PSO office).  Treat it like a job interview; best foot forward.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on December 18, 2015, 06:46:01
Well damn. Sounds like you folks are starved for people

You have no idea.   
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on December 18, 2015, 11:41:53
"They" don't get much say, IMO;  there is an established OUTCAP that they don't control, based on the trades TES.  All your CO can say is "I support" or "I don't support".  The PSO interview is a good thing to be well-prepared and turned out for.  I had a binder with all my 'research' material in it, I spoke to AES Ops very close to my interview, I wore 3B (that was DOTD for the PSO office).  Treat it like a job interview; best foot forward.
I should rephrase: The Combat Engineers are currently under manned (as is everyone from the sounds of things). From my understanding, this means it could be slightly more difficult leaving the Corps, as it is a competition. Not to get into any new trade, but to get out of current one.
My CO has and my entire chain supports the OT, and they are pushing my paperwork. It's nice to be backed. Just waiting on my interview with the BPSO, which should be in January before I head to PLQ, on the 25th.
As for research for said meeting, I'm going to lay out what I know, or think I know. I'm hoping you gentlemen can assist me in correcting any misinformation I have, as well as filling in any info you think I should be armed with.

Training: 6 months or so in Winnipeg, depending on how much of a gap there is between your basic flight training -BAQC (Basic Air Qualification? 8 weeks) and your IAQC (Initial Air Qualification? 16 weeks). After completing this, posted either east or west, then out to either Greenwood for MOAT(Maritime Operational Air Training) or Shearwater for OTU(Operational Trg Unit) for another 24 weeks.

Postings:
-Rotary, either Esquimalt or Shearwater. I'm guessing that these postings will involve a lot of time out to sea with the navy. I'm curious to know how long these deployments are usually? There's a lot of hearsay in the army world about how it all works, and I'd like to be clear going forward. Keeping in mind that coming from the army I'm not too concerned about time away. It's all part of signing on the dotted line.
-Fixed wing, either Comox or Greenwood. Deployments can last anywhere from weeks to months. Plenty of flights daily. Coastal patrols? Or am I out to lunch on that assumption?

With either platform I'm understanding there is plenty of flying, and your op tempo is high. You'd all prefer not to have to babysit, and noobs are expected to know their job and perform.

Family life - I'm not sure if this question will come up in the interview, but I'd like to be prepared for it. So, is there anything I should know in respects to it? Are AESOp's gone 250 days a year? Is the a major difference between MH and Fixed Wing for time gone (this ties back into my earlier question about MH deployments)? What can my family expect if I make it into this trade? I'd like to have us prepared and in the know.

Am I misinformed on anything, or is here any other pertinent info I should have?

Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Tom
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 18, 2015, 12:40:41
I should rephrase: The Combat Engineers are currently under manned (as is everyone from the sounds of things). From my understanding, this means it could be slightly more difficult leaving the Corps, as it is a competition. Not to get into any new trade, but to get out of current one.

All determined by the TES and 'health' of your trade.  Green trades = 2% of TES allowed OT out, 1% for Amber, 0.5% for Red.  There is a OUTCAP matrix on the DIN if you search Basic Production Documents.  It will have the OT OUTCAP for your trade for this FY listed there.

Quote
Training: 6 months or so in Winnipeg, depending on how much of a gap there is between your basic flight training -BAQC (Basic Air Qualification? 8 weeks) and your IAQC (Initial Air Qualification? 16 weeks). After completing this, posted either east or west, then out to either Greenwood for MOAT(Maritime Operational Air Training) or Shearwater for OTU(Operational Trg Unit) for another 24 weeks.

Check out the changes coming to the trg system and 'ways' now in play and coming down the pipe that Eagle Eye View posted earlier.  FYI, he is currently an AES Op instructor in Winnipeg for the initial trg phase.

BAQC (Basic AESOP Qual Course, QL3) was about 3 months before with IAQC (Intermediate AESOP Qual Course, QL5 / flying phase) scheduled for 2 months but subject to flying schedule extensions.

MOAT and OTU, call it 6 months.  Currently, posting happen between Winnipeg and MOAT/OTU, then off you go to get a platform qual.

Quote
Postings:
-Rotary MH , either Esquimalt or Shearwater. I'm guessing that these postings will involve a lot of time out to sea with the navy. I'm curious to know how long these deployments are usually? There's a lot of hearsay in the army world about how it all works, and I'd like to be clear going forward. Keeping in mind that coming from the army I'm not too concerned about time away. It's all part of signing on the dotted line.

I'll leave that for a fling-winger.   ^-^
 
Quote
Fixed wing LRP, either Comox or Greenwood. Deployments can last anywhere from weeks to months. Plenty of flights daily. Coastal patrols? Or am I out to lunch on that assumption?

There are types of patrols flown along coasts.  Deployments can be planned in advance or sometimes happen 'overnight/quickly'.  Not much more to say about that on here. 

Quote
With either platform I'm understanding there is plenty of flying, and your op tempo is high. You'd all prefer not to have to babysit, and noobs are expected to know their job and perform.

It is different in the army, for LRP operators at least and I will assume even more so for MH, as they are 1 AESOP/crew.  But, in LRP, once you are done MOAT and onto your OJTP and continuation trg, you are expected to be pro-active in progressing your training, more so than the Army - it's not a hand-held exercise as much as the army does.

Quote
Family life - I'm not sure if this question will come up in the interview, but I'd like to be prepared for it. So, is there anything I should know in respects to it? Are AESOp's gone 250 days a year? Is the a major difference between MH and Fixed Wing for time gone (this ties back into my earlier question about MH deployments)? What can my family expect if I make it into this trade? I'd like to have us prepared and in the know.

After MOAT and on a crew, you won't be gone that much (250/year) but could do half a year in the current op tempo.  That will likely slow down some before you hit an LRP crew if you are posted that way but, I would say it is safe to say 4 months away, spread out over the year, is a conservative number at this time.

I won't guess at the MH guys but generally speaking, they may go away less often but for longer stints - attached to a HMCS.

Quote
Am I misinformed on anything, or is here any other pertinent info I should have?

Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Tom

I would say, get a general understanding of what AES Ops do on the LRP and MH fleet.  Some of that you won't get in the clear on here but if you could arrange a phone call or email with one in the New Year, I think that would give you some more applic info on the actual job.   :2c:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on December 18, 2015, 13:40:00
Ok, I've reviewed the updated from Eagle Eye View. Lots of info there. Hopefully this bodes well for those us looking to gain entry into the trade. Sounds like a busy year upcoming for you fellas though.

Once again, a wealth of info, Eye. Thanks. I'll PM you in the new year about that phone call/email. I want to nail this interview, so I'll definitely pick you brain for any additional info that may come in handy.

Merry Christmas gentlemen, and a Happy New Year.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on December 18, 2015, 14:48:15
Serv is slowly getting better and in fact right now we're chasing our YFR due to weather. The bottle neck right now is having 12 students BAQC qualified awaiting IAQC. These guys will be our priority until next summer. The next BAQC will start in Apr 16.

So Eagle, are you expecting to see the changes you're talking about as soon as the FY starts? Or do you expect it to be a slower transition? I've been on "first of" courses so to speak my whole career.

BMQ was the first English course my all French instructors did.

QL3 was the first version of that course they ran for Sigs

QL5 or DP 2 was one of the first ones.

Doesn't matter too much to me either way. Just interested.

@thomasm77

Listen to these guys. Eye especially as he has been invaluable in the two year wait for my CT/OT. They'll halo keep you in the loop for all these goings on in the trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: thomasm77 on December 18, 2015, 15:15:27
So Eagle, are you expecting to see the changes you're talking about as soon as the FY starts? Or do you expect it to be a slower transition? I've been on "first of" courses so to speak my whole career.

BMQ was the first English course my all French instructors did.

QL3 was the first version of that course they ran for Sigs

QL5 or DP 2 was one of the first ones.

Doesn't matter too much to me either way. Just interested.

@thomasm77

Listen to these guys. Eye especially as he has been invaluable in the two year wait for my CT/OT. They'll halo keep you in the loop for all these goings on in the trade.
Tunetog.
Thanks. I'm all over listening to these gents. They've been nothing but gracious and helpful over the last couple months. I can't thank them enough.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 18, 2015, 15:41:31
Listen to these guys. Eye especially as he has been invaluable in the two year wait for my CT/OT. They'll halo keep you in the loop for all these goings on in the trade.

I appreciate the sentiment, but have to mention that both Dophin_Hunter and Eagle Eye View have done their time at the line sqn's and then moved on to other aspects of the trade.  Both of them have more time in the trade than I do.  We each exist day-to-day in different little worlds, so you've got a good broad input from the 'initial occupation trg' to 'whats happening at a line Sqn' perspectives.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on December 18, 2015, 17:07:40
I appreciate the sentiment, but have to mention that both Dophin_Hunter and Eagle Eye View have done their time at the line sqn's and then moved on to other aspects of the trade.  Both of them have more time in the trade than I do.  We each exist day-to-day in different little worlds, so you've got a good broad input from the 'initial occupation trg' to 'whats happening at a line Sqn' perspectives.

Agreed Eye. I've gotten great info and input from all of the above. I think that you've just been the most active for us noobs as far as the basic questions. This board has a plethora of info.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on December 18, 2015, 17:35:08
TUNETOG

Quote
So Eagle, are you expecting to see the changes you're talking about as soon as the FY starts? Or do you expect it to be a slower transition?

No the intent is to start the "new/updated" course hopefully late 2016 summer or fall.

Also, I just found out today that the next IAQC starting 11 Jan will be 12 students (the initial plan was to have them staggered). It will be very busy here and hopefully we can pump out those guys fast enough without hiccups.

Any questions related to the school and the trade I'm happy to answer.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 18, 2015, 18:12:19
Also, I just found out today that the next IAQC starting 11 Jan will be 12 students

 :o Whoa, that should clear some of the waiting list stuff. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Ditch on December 20, 2015, 11:58:35
Be sure to drop by the WOC and say "hi"!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on December 20, 2015, 13:33:32
There are so many new acronyms for me to learn now. It's weird being on leave, knowing I'm going back to my current job for only a month or so before starting down this path.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 20, 2015, 14:01:05
I still hear stuff and go 'wtf does that mean'.   :subbies:

Enjoy your leave and remaining time before you enter the training system.  Seriously, once  you start it doesn't stop for a while.  After you are winged and qual'd on the '140 or SeaKing/Cyclone you think "awesome!  I am done of Winnipeg, and MOAT/OTU and on a crew!  I did it!  I'm done!!!".

Then, someone hands you your upgrade package.   >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on December 20, 2015, 14:09:26
I still hear stuff and go 'wtf does that mean'.   :subbies:

Enjoy your leave and remaining time before you enter the training system.  Seriously, once  you start it doesn't stop for a while.  After you are winged and qual'd on the '140 or SeaKing/Cyclone you think "awesome!  I am done of Winnipeg, and MOAT/OTU and on a crew!  I did it!  I'm done!!!".

Then, someone hands you your upgrade package.   >:D

I'll be happy once I can get the family settled on either coast. I'm really just concerned with getting some of that stuff done so I can get the first posting/move out of the way for them...so at least they can settle. On that note (and I'm sure I've asked this ages ago), east or west? What are people's preference???
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 20, 2015, 15:27:49
Depends on what they want;  I like the coast I am on primarily because my and Mrs EITS's family are all 3-4 hour drive away.  Would I go to the other coast?  Sure, but prefer the one I am on. 

Example to consider as well, Greenwood has a few more options for posting and remaining in that geo location compared to Comox, as Greenwood has 404 and 415 Sqns as well as the operational Sqn, 405.  There is also Wing Ops billets.  Shearwater is similar in that regard to Pat Bay, with HOTEF and 406 being in Shearwater.

Which has better TD locations?  Well that is subjective. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on December 20, 2015, 15:36:31
Depends on what they want;  I like the coast I am on primarily because my and Mrs EITS's family are all 3-4 hour drive away.  Would I go to the other coast?  Sure, but prefer the one I am on. 

Example to consider as well, Greenwood has a few more options for posting and remaining in that geo location compared to Comox, as Greenwood has 404 and 415 Sqns as well as the operational Sqn, 405.  There is also Wing Ops billets.  Shearwater is similar in that regard to Pat Bay, with HOTEF and 406 being in Shearwater.

Which has better TD locations?  Well that is subjective.


At the end of the day, not sure that we're too bothered either way. But nice to hear people's opinions.....anyone else!?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on December 20, 2015, 21:49:56
I'll be happy once I can get the family settled on either coast. I'm really just concerned with getting some of that stuff done so I can get the first posting/move out of the way for them...so at least they can settle. On that note (and I'm sure I've asked this ages ago), east or west? What are people's preference???

I'm a fan of the west coast.  The Comox Valley is much larger than the Annapolis Valley, and has most things (shopping-wise) that you will need.  If not, Nanaimo is about 90 mins away, and Victoria or Vancouver are about 3-4 hours away.  Even then, I don't find that I go to Victoria or Vancouver much except for visiting friends or catching a game.

It is significantly more expensive for housing but taxes and heating costs are much lower, so it pretty much comes out in the wash.  Neither are large cities, but the Comox Valley has amazing restaurants for the population size.  It also has amazing mountain-biking and good skiing 30 mins away, and the "winter" means hoodie instead of t-shirt weather, so there's that too ;)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: mariomike on December 20, 2015, 22:32:49
On that note (and I'm sure I've asked this ages ago), east or west? What are people's preference???

But nice to hear people's opinions.....anyone else!?

Nova Scotia Thread- Merged 
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=30800.0

Comox Thread- Merged 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,30590.50.html

Shearwater
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+++VIE&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=42B3VqrpAeWM8Qe2lrqABg&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+++shearwater
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on December 20, 2015, 22:47:37
Nova Scotia Thread- Merged 
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=30800.0

Comox Thread- Merged 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,30590.50.html

Shearwater
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+++VIE&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=42B3VqrpAeWM8Qe2lrqABg&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+++shearwater

Nice one. I'll have a look at these.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: mariomike on December 20, 2015, 22:49:24
Nice one. I'll have a look at these.

It sounds like a great trade.  :)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 26, 2016, 12:22:28
So...happy new year all. Been pretty quiet in here. I'm looking to spark the engines back up. Training cycles have begun again. Should be getting a posting message any day now. Nothing is for sure, but it sounds like there shouldn't be any issue with me staying in my local area until I'm loaded on course. That'll make life a little easier for the family. It's all who you know in these situations I guess.

Any exciting news for the trade? Any exciting news for any of you already out there living it? Or are we all waiting for new FY and APS before there's anything of note to talk about?

Either way, hope everyone had a happy and safe holidays. Welcome back to the grind.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 27, 2016, 07:51:47
All the interesting stuff is stuff that can't be talked about here.   >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 27, 2016, 08:39:58
All the interesting stuff is stuff that can't be talked about here.   >:D

Sounds like my favourite kind of stuff!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 28, 2016, 08:45:41
Would it be beneficial to have a laptop/computer/tablet with me during course? I don't mean for in the classroom.....I mean more for writing up coursework/homework or that kind of thing...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 28, 2016, 10:01:29
For sure.  Not sure where the courses are housed now, but there was all kinds of room for stuff like laptops.  You'll find the course quite different from a 'combat arms' type QL3, and in good ways.   8)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on January 28, 2016, 10:33:18
Students are issued laptops both for the QL3 and 5.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 28, 2016, 10:37:08
Students are issued laptops both for the QL3 and 5.

DWAN with DVPNI though, correct?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on January 28, 2016, 10:40:23
Quote
DWAN with DVPNI though, correct

Yes
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 28, 2016, 10:42:04
Yes

Thanks. That helps with the decision on what to bring with me.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on January 29, 2016, 16:29:00
TUNETOG

Being posted to home unit while awaiting training shouldn't be a problem. I've seen it done multiple time before. However now the course will be roughly 6/7 months long. Also be aware if you want to go MH, 406 SQN is closing doors this summer for OTU. If they start a cyclone OTU this summer is only speculation; it's anybody guess when they'll start Cyclone OTU. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on January 29, 2016, 16:50:43
TUNETOG

Being posted to home unit while awaiting training shouldn't be a problem. I've seen it done multiple time before. However now the course will be roughly 6/7 months long. Also be aware if you want to go MH, 406 SQN is closing doors this summer for OTU. If they start a cyclone OTU this summer is only speculation; it's anybody guess when they'll start Cyclone OTU.

I'm not worried about once I start training...we're prepared for that. It's the time beforehand we are hoping for. Looks like it's getting ironed out now.

If I had a preference it'd be LRP....but I know I'll likely just have to take what I'm given.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on February 02, 2016, 09:53:54
Are there Single Quarters available on most wings where junior AES Ops would find themselves posted? Thanks


Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on February 02, 2016, 10:06:01
Yes, I believe most if not all Wings have single quarters available.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on February 02, 2016, 10:28:39
Yes, I believe most if not all Wings have single quarters available.

OK, so then I have to ask. Double or quad quarters on course? Not that it matters that much.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 02, 2016, 11:00:02
OK, so then I have to ask. Double or quad quarters on course? Not that it matters that much.
It's the RCAF. Single rooms with turndown service and HBO.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on February 02, 2016, 11:02:43
It's the RCAF. Single rooms with turndown service and HBO.

I didn't want to assume anything for course though.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 02, 2016, 11:50:38
Yes, I believe most if not all Wings have single quarters available.

Shearwater and Greenwood for sure.  I've stayed in Transient shacks in Comox, but I'm going to 'guess' you could get SQs in Esquimalt if you got posted to 443?

And, if an Ottawa posting came someone's way, I don't believe there are SQs there; I recall reading about a Self Help program in the NCR but don't know enough about it to say anymore than that...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 02, 2016, 11:54:28
It's the RCAF. Single rooms with turndown service and HBO.

My 3s were horrible;  there was a coffee maker, microwave, cable TV, full bathroom, cleaning service...but..we had to provide our own coffee.   :orly:

I know eh!  WTH!!!

 ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on February 02, 2016, 12:35:06
My 3s were horrible;  there was a coffee maker, microwave, cable TV, full bathroom, cleaning service...but..we had to provide our own coffee.   :orly:

I know eh!  WTH!!!

 ;D

I don't know if I'll be able to live under such conditions. But you did yours a while ago right? So I'm sure things have improved.  [:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 02, 2016, 12:48:40
My 3s were horrible;  there was a coffee maker, microwave, cable TV, full bathroom, cleaning service...but..we had to provide our own coffee.   :orly:

I know eh!  WTH!!!

 ;D

Its a hard life, but someone has to do it. I salute you for taking one for the team.  :salute:  ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on February 02, 2016, 13:43:18
It's the RCAF. Single rooms with turndown service and HBO.

Well, Greenwood's cable in the shacks are all being turned off in a week while they (hopefully) sort out a new agreement with the cable provider.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 02, 2016, 22:21:19
I don't know if I'll be able to live under such conditions. But you did yours a while ago right? So I'm sure things have improved.  [:D

Yup, I was a while ago, when the Direct Entry trial was just getting going.  For our 3s, we were 2 to a room [that had a TV with cable, full bathroom, etc...so no *hardship* there] and then on the 5s [flying phase] we had a room all to ourselves.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 02, 2016, 22:22:32
Its a hard life, but someone has to do it. I salute you for taking one for the team.  :salute:  ;D

 :bowing: 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 02, 2016, 22:24:10
Well, Greenwood's cable in the shacks are all being turned off in a week while they (hopefully) sort out a new agreement with the cable provider.

Well, at least there is the Top Hat to go to during the blackout!   ;D

CTing it up?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on February 03, 2016, 00:00:34
Well, at least there is the Top Hat to go to during the blackout!   ;D

CTing it up?

Nope, full MOAT.  Been here since late Sept.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on February 16, 2016, 11:59:28
Just wanted to share. I've been wearing blue now since last week! Everyone is so used to seeing me in green, it's funny to see their reactions. I feel a weight has been lifted off my shoulders....can't wait to get loaded on course and start learning. Starting to study up on some MET stuff in the meantime to get my brain working out again. Now just continue to wait for the course loading message. Hopefully on the next one coming up.  ;D :nod: :cdn:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 16, 2016, 12:46:14
I feel a weight has been lifted off my shoulders....

Ya, I think it is called "full marching order".  Something else that will become "a fond memory"...

Ref courses...

It is a bit out of sequence, but what about doing the Distance Learning Basic EW Course (DL BEW)?  I did DL BEW before I went on the 3s and 5s.

If you are interested, try going to the DIN Winnipeg site, under AFTC (Air Force Training Center...or used to be).  Look for a link to CFSAS (CF School of Aerospace Studies) and then Course Solicitation Messages.  See if there is a DL BEW serial running soon.  If there is and you are interested, and spots are open you might be able to get course loaded.  It is a required course for us.  The 'in house' course is 1 week long and, from what other guys told me, a bit of a fire-house.  The DL course was 3 months when I did it around '08.

You can also find the BEW Manual there (.pdf). 

Ref MET..did you find the CF Weather Manual (or something like that for the name...) and Workbook?  Good start on MET and official CAF trg material.

You might find yourself on the 1 week long Basic Air Environmental Qual (BAEQ) course too.  Enjoy that...meet some new people, learn how to fluff your pillow and some new definitions (Army, PT = physical training.  Air Force, PT = personal time  ;D) and stuff like that.

Welcome to the blue side of the world!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on February 16, 2016, 13:36:36
Ya, I think it is called "full marching order".  Something else that will become "a fond memory"...

Ref courses...

It is a bit out of sequence, but what about doing the Distance Learning Basic EW Course (DL BEW)?  I did DL BEW before I went on the 3s and 5s.
Already did BEW while I was waiting for my CT. Though I should review again for a refresher, as memory dump often occurs when not using the knowledge learned.
Quote
Ref MET..did you find the CF Weather Manual (or something like that for the name...) and Workbook?  Good start on MET and official CAF trg material.
Yes I have the RCAF Manual with workbook. Sent to me by a former colleague who is now at the school.
Quote
You might find yourself on the 1 week long Basic Air Environmental Qual (BAEQ) course too.  Enjoy that...meet some new people, learn how to fluff your pillow and some new definitions (Army, PT = physical training.  Air Force, PT = personal time  ;D) and stuff like that.
I was wondering about this as it shows up on the forces jobs website about the trade. I wasn't sure if it just got integrated into the 3's course or if it was it's own beast as anyone in the RCAF would have to do it. Is it a requirement before 3's, or can it be done afterwards? I'll need to get loaded on that ASAP if I want in on the April 3's if being a requirement is the case.
Quote
Welcome to the blue side of the world!
Hey, thanks!
 ::) :cdn:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on February 16, 2016, 13:43:56
Just wanted to share. I've been wearing blue now since last week! Everyone is so used to seeing me in green, it's funny to see their reactions. I feel a weight has been lifted off my shoulders....can't wait to get loaded on course and start learning. Starting to study up on some MET stuff in the meantime to get my brain working out again. Now just continue to wait for the course loading message. Hopefully on the next one coming up.  ;D :nod: :cdn:

Good luck.

Keep an open mind and you will do fine.  I'll be waiting for you here at 404.

Just remember no one likes it "dry"!  For a good time you need to get "wet"....


Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 16, 2016, 13:45:06
I did BAEQ before my 3s while on BTL...but I don't think it is a 'shall be done before'.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 16, 2016, 13:47:50
Good luck.

Keep an open mind and you will do fine.  I'll be waiting for you here at 404.

Just remember no one likes it "dry"!  For a good time you need to get "wet"....

 8)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on February 16, 2016, 13:58:17
Apptitude? 

Authorized PED?

The damn toaster is unplugged...
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 16, 2016, 14:01:46
Apptitude?

Damn, you picked it up.

Quote
Authorized PED?

 :whistle:

Quote
The damn toaster is unplugged...

It was just the aptitude test, not a check ride!   >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on February 16, 2016, 14:38:49
TUNETOG, any chance I could get a copy of the weather manual/workbook? Is there an electronic copy avail, or is it only hard copy?

Cheers.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on February 16, 2016, 14:50:32
TUNETOG, any chance I could get a copy of the weather manual/workbook? Is there an electronic copy avail, or is it only hard copy?

Cheers.

PM sent
Title: Questions following enrollment and BMQ
Post by: xoulliam on February 22, 2016, 11:37:17
Just got enrolled as an AESOP and my wife had some questions and I wasn't sure of the answers.

1-After BMQ, will it be possible to live with my wife on base or near the base where my basic occupational qualification training (24 weeks in Winnipeg) and specialty training (24 weeks in Shearwater) or will she have to find an appartment by herself off-base?

2- Is there a delay between BMQ and the other Training?

3-If possible, what to I have to do to be able to live together? What are the delays to get a DND logding unit?

Thanks
Title: Re: Questions following enrollment and BMQ
Post by: Ditch on February 24, 2016, 21:33:56
You will get to live with your wife - you will be posted to Winnipeg.  Expect delays between BMQ and all the phases of your training.  I have fresh out of the box Aviators-awaiting-AESOP training working for me right now.
Title: Re: Questions following enrollment and BMQ
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 25, 2016, 02:22:01
Just got enrolled as an AESOP and my wife had some questions and I wasn't sure of the answers.

congrats!

Quote
1-After BMQ, will it be possible to live with my wife on base or near the base where my basic occupational qualification training (24 weeks in Winnipeg) and specialty training (24 weeks in Shearwater) or will she have to find an appartment by herself off-base?

Eagle Eye View is a current AES Op instructor in Winnipeg, hopefully he will be along to cover the current 'way of doing things' in Winnipeg. 

Ref the part about the 'specialty training' in Shearwater...did you already get told you would be going Maritime Helicopter?  If so...unusual.

It might (must?) have changed some from when I went thru CFANS/1 CFFTS/402 Sqn based on what Ditch posted.  Direct entry AES Op - Jr's were posted to Winnipeg but didn't get a cost move of their D HG and E (Dependant, Household Goods and Effects) until after they had completed both the QL3 (BAQC) and QL5 (IAQC) courses, were Wings grad AES Ops and then were proceeding to their first posting to (usually) Greenwood, Shearwater, Comox or Pats Bay.  Upon graduation of the QL5 IAQC, people were told where they were posted and received their posting message shortly thereafter.

Quote
2- Is there a delay between BMQ and the other Training?

Rather than re-stating a bunch of stuff...lots of good info already in this thread.

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,22838.msg1213604.html#msg1213604

Quote
3-If possible, what to I have to do to be able to live together? What are the delays to get a DND logding unit?
Thanks

Delays in getting a PMQ when you are posted could be if there are any units available, when you are 'posted' with a cost move (usually not until you have attained "Career Status" and aren't restricted from moving your D HG & E.  Career Status for NCMs is defined at the link below.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-amend-ch-1.page

1.1.03 Eligibility application

The following are entitled to relocation benefits under the CFIRP:
•Regular Force members who are posted and Reserve Force members who accept a period of Class "B" or "C" service employment, as per Chapter 13, who are authorized to move their (D) HG&E from one place of duty to another only when the new residence is at least 40 kilometres closer to the new place of duty than the current residence.

(Limitation) CF members who enrol or re-enrol, or transfer from the Reserve Force to the Regular Force, and have not successfully completed basic military occupation or trade training or its equivalent for the occupation or trade for which they enroll, re-enroll or transfer are not entitled to relocation benefits under the CFIRP, unless they:
•have graduated from a Canadian miitary college during their current period of Regular Force service;
•have graduated from a civilian university for which their education was paid by the Canadian Forces during their current period of Regular Force service;
•are a dental, medical or legal office who has successfully completed basic officer training; or
•are a Chaplain recruit, who by virtue of their ecclesiastical mandate received by their respective religious authority, is authorized to exercise pasatoral care.

(TB amended 16 September 2014)
--------------------------

Mods, perhaps a merge with the Aesop (MOC 081) thread?

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 25, 2016, 03:39:57
Okay, so Wings after QL5.  I'm assuming OFP will remain "QL5", and spec pay will remain QL5 as well.  This makes a lot of sense now.  Hopefully the QSWB will include a MH type from both the TE and line Sqns, an ASO from the TE and line Sqns, and a NASO from the TE and line Sqns as well.

EEV

Any word yet on the QSWB dates/composition?  I will be done of Fat Camp and back at homeplate early in the new FY, was thinking it would be an opportunity to provide input from current ops perspectives into the new trg for pre-wing types.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on February 25, 2016, 08:19:08
We're looking at early to mid April timeframe, right after our spring break. 2 CAD CWO is running the show on this one, however I don't think they'll be much change required from the last QS. The big change will be for us when we re-write the TP.
Title: Re: Questions following enrollment and BMQ
Post by: xoulliam on February 25, 2016, 14:07:59
You will get to live with your wife - you will be posted to Winnipeg.  Expect delays between BMQ and all the phases of your training.  I have fresh out of the box Aviators-awaiting-AESOP training working for me right now.

Cool Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Questions following enrollment and BMQ
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 25, 2016, 14:10:21
Just got enrolled as an AESOP and my wife had some questions and I wasn't sure of the answers.

1-After BMQ, will it be possible to live with my wife on base or near the base where my basic occupational qualification training (24 weeks in Winnipeg) and specialty training (24 weeks in Shearwater) or will she have to find an appartment by herself off-base?

2- Is there a delay between BMQ and the other Training?

3-If possible, what to I have to do to be able to live together? What are the delays to get a DND logding unit?

Thanks

Here is the reply from Eagle Eye View, he is an AES Op Warrant Officer who is instructing baby AES OPs in Winnipeg (for some reason he couldn't reply to the post).

Yes there's delay between BMQ and your BAQC, however you can take that time to complete the following courses BSERE, AMT, Sea survival and BEW. AMT & Sea survival courses must be completed before being course loaded onto IAQC. Despite the fact it might take awhile to get course loaded onto BAQC, once you complete it, IAQC will follow soon after. In other words the 2 courses are run back to back.

With regards to MH, as of now who knows when the CH-148 OTU will start (we were told up to 2 years?), so I would expect until then that the new AES Ops will go to LRP as either NASO, ASO or WOPS/ESS as first posting.

You will be allowed to live with your wife and apply for a PMQ, however like mentioned earlier you won't get a cost move until you get Wing qualified. If you decide to live in the barracks, you will be paying Ration & quarters iaw the policy (which I don't necessarily agree with).
Title: Re: Questions following enrollment and BMQ
Post by: xoulliam on February 25, 2016, 14:15:24
Here is the reply from Eagle Eye View, he is an AES Op Warrant Officer who is instructing baby AES OPs in Winnipeg (for some reason he couldn't reply to the post).

Yes there's delay between BMQ and your BAQC, however you can take that time to complete the following courses BSERE, AMT, Sea survival and BEW. AMT & Sea survival courses must be completed before being course loaded onto IAQC. Despite the fact it might take awhile to get course loaded onto BAQC, once you complete it, IAQC will follow soon after. In other words the 2 courses are run back to back.

With regards to MH, as of now who knows when the CH-148 OTU will start (we were told up to 2 years?), so I would expect until then that the new AES Ops will go to LRP as either NASO, ASO or WOPS/ESS as first posting.

You will be allowed to live with your wife and apply for a PMQ, however like mentioned earlier you won't get a cost move until you get Wing qualified. If you decide to live in the barracks, you will be paying Ration & quarters iaw the policy (which I don't necessarily agree with).

Nice! That's some good info. I'm very excited to be enrolled! Hope to join you guys soon enough!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on February 25, 2016, 15:40:47
Nice! That's some good info. I'm very excited to be enrolled! Hope to join you guys soon enough!

You are on your way to becoming a proud member of the best NCM trade available.  Keep your head up and out of the crap!  Before you know it you will be bitching about hotel rooms and box lunches with the rest of us.

Congrats and good luck.
Title: Re: Questions following enrollment and BMQ
Post by: xoulliam on February 25, 2016, 16:28:38


Ref the part about the 'specialty training' in Shearwater...did you already get told you would be going Maritime Helicopter?  If so...unusual.



I just forgot to write down Greenwood also, sorry about the confusion!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on February 26, 2016, 11:32:59
You are on your way to becoming a proud member of the best NCM trade available.  Keep your head up and out of the crap!  Before you know it you will be bitching about hotel rooms and box lunches with the rest of us.

Congrats and good luck.

My first couple of weeks in blue have been pretty great. Even though I'm in the same building/office space, so much has changed. Just doing monkey work, inputting data for RFE's and lifts, but I'm learning a little of how the RCAF works. I've got a great CoC, and colleagues, and am the only NCM in our section. Normally that would make me a magnet for you know what...but not here. Just wanted to express my happiness. Seeing as many of my earlier posts were filled with teenage-like angst while going through the CT process....it's like I've flown out the other side of a storm now, and into clear blue skies.  ;D :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on April 12, 2016, 22:10:33
Been out on a couple of courses for my first time in Winnipeg the last couple of weeks. Been a good go, and can't wait to start my 3's (don't know when yet). But these initial aircrew courses have been a nice way to ease into the RCAF. Back home in a couple of days. Gotten to speak with some others doing their 5's ATM, and they are great sources of info. Can't wait until we're at their stage of training, but have to get through those 3's first. I think I'm going to enjoy this
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on April 13, 2016, 07:44:24
Attitude.

Positive you must keep.

Enjoy it you will.


Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: TUNETOG on April 15, 2016, 08:33:54
Attitude.

Positive you must keep.

Enjoy it you will.

Doubt that
I do not [:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: pascalywood on May 05, 2016, 21:12:07
Hi guys, quick question about the AES op trade. I used to be in the reserves and considering joining back as a reg force AES op. I was wondering, does this job require a level 3 security clearance or only a secret one?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 06, 2016, 00:03:59
TS for the op sqn's.  I think my Lvl 3 was 'processing' when I went thru Wpg. 

Talked to a recruiter yet?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 06, 2016, 07:19:06
Don't be surprised if TS will be a requirement for all AES Op considering all AES Ops will now need to be familiar with ACINT.   

They are also changing how AES Ops are recruited.  They want to focus on occupational transfers to increase the experience level of the trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: pascalywood on May 06, 2016, 08:05:20
TS for the op sqn's.  I think my Lvl 3 was 'processing' when I went thru Wpg. 

Talked to a recruiter yet?

I will soon, just got an email asking me to contact the local recruiting center for an apointment.

Thanks for the reply
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on May 06, 2016, 14:20:58
Don't be surprised if TS will be a requirement for all AES Op considering all AES Ops will now need to be familiar with ACINT.   

They are also changing how AES Ops are recruited.  They want to focus on occupational transfers to increase the experience level of the trade.

Will AES Ops still be streamed ASO/NASO? If so, which stream will likely end up on the Cyclone? I apologize if this has been covered previously. I understand it's just 1 AES Op on MH, and that they may at times have to share various sensor responsibilities with the TACCO or non-flying pilot? I hope I have that somewhat close?

And last time I checked there were only 4 or so spots for OT to AES Op this year? If you guys want experience (i.e. was MCpl or senior Cpl before) why such low numbers?

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 06, 2016, 17:14:30
I believe these numbers are about to increase as a result of having an IAQC output target of 24 graduates per year vs 12. In other words, the trade is really hurting and desperate for new blood.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 06, 2016, 17:23:36
Don't be surprised if TS will be a requirement for all AES Op considering all AES Ops will now need to be familiar with ACINT.   


You mean before they can start BAQC as opposed to it 'processing'?  And all of us famil with ACINT...even dry guys on sqn now?  First I heard of this.  I am in the buddle of confusion and chaos and don't get out much...

I thought this year's SIP has way more DE than OT #s.  Not that I thought that was necessarily a 'good' thing though!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 06, 2016, 17:32:22
Will AES Ops still be streamed ASO/NASO?

Only the LRP community has the ASO/NASO streams.

Quote
If so, which stream will likely end up on the Cyclone? I apologize if this has been covered previously. I understand it's just 1 AES Op on MH, and that they may at times have to share various sensor responsibilities with the TACCO or non-flying pilot? I hope I have that somewhat close?

MH folks are MH; the training and employment is changing a lot...errr well going to change a lot...with the Cyclone but they will be trained in the Cyclone sensors, some of which is 'wet' and some 'dry'. 

I'd be talking about my arse about how MH AES Ops work with the task sharing.  My  :2c: is they will be pretty busy people on the Cyclone; not necessarily more or less than LRP guys are, but just in a different way.

Quote
And last time I checked there were only 4 or so spots for OT to AES Op this year? If you guys want experience (i.e. was MCpl or senior Cpl before) why such low numbers?

Trade/career management demands, realities and lessons learned make priorities and ideas change accordingly.  DE worked for what it was needed for, it had its pro's and con's.  OTs have a thing called 'perspective' that DE don't have the benefit of.  IMO.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 06, 2016, 18:28:43
To put things into perspective on the Aurora we have 5 AES Ops responsible for Radar, ESM, EO/IR, Ordinance, Passive and Active acoustics.  Usually we are all busy.

ASO = Passive and Active acoustics, EO/IR and Ordinance duties.
NASO = Radar, ESM, EO/IR and Ordinance duties.

The Cyclone has 1 AES Op and he/she will be responsible for Radar, ESM, EO/IR, Ordinance (limited), Passive and Active acoustics.  Obviously they are going to have to share responsibilities with the ACSO, because one individual will not be able to handle all of that at once.   Never mind trying to be proficient in everything.

The recruiting will flip (as briefed by our CWOs), so the majority of new AES Ops will come from within.  I suspect this will happen within the next year, so keep applying. 

Also new AES Ops shouldn't expect to end up in a flying position for their first posting.  They are looking at sending folks to WOPs to increase experience levels.  This will be a good thing especially since both the Aurora and Cyclone are technological beasts.   

You mean before they can start BAQC as opposed to it 'processing'?  And all of us famil with ACINT...even dry guys on sqn now?  First I heard of this.

They are learning MVASP and basic acoustic information in Winnipeg now.  They do learn basic unclassified analysis as well.  I think it was recommended that all AES Ops have BPAAC because the AES Ops that don't perform analysis duties will be in the minority once the Cyclone gets up and running.   I mean we all have to take BEW, so why not BPAAC?   No the line guys (NASOs) don't have to learn acoustics.

Winnipeg can pump out 50 a year but it doesn't mean a lick of crap if the OTUs can't handle them, which we can't.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 06, 2016, 19:02:56
ASO = Passive and Active acoustics, EO/IR and Ordinance duties.

I know they are coming out 'qualified' EO/IR and Ord as baby Bs...but...the reality ( :2c: at least where I am) is they don't have the experience/ability to do it without a NASO when things get busy...that might change...right now the 'theory' isn't matching the reality.  Qualified/proficient...

For the NASO's, throw MAD into the works as well.  It takes skill and critical thinking to...stare at a line and yell. 

Quote
Winnipeg can pump out 50 a year but it doesn't mean a lick of crap if the OTUs can't handle them, which we can't.

That's too bad, because we need 'em!  The butter is spread pretty thin across the parking lot.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 06, 2016, 19:31:20
50 graduates in Winnipeg right now is unrealistic. Unless the trade double my instructor billets; heck we have trouble keeping up with 2 courses of 12 in house at the same time.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 06, 2016, 19:34:42
One thing the DE gig did NOT do for us; produce folks who (on average) could do their first tour and then go on to be instructors.  The 'new blood' was needed but the middle-term effects are showing themselves now.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 06, 2016, 19:42:06
I agree 100% with your comment. By new blood I meant both DE and VOTs. Most of the VOTs that I see here at the school have 12 years or less in service.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 06, 2016, 20:08:13
50 graduates in Winnipeg right now is unrealistic. Unless the trade double my instructor billets; heck we have trouble keeping up with 2 courses of 12 in house at the same time.

You know me.  I was being snarky.   

IMHO the DE recruiting process should cease.  Go back to OT only.  The Basic AES Op training of today is nothing like the Basic AES Op training of yesterday with the high failure rates.   
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on May 07, 2016, 02:10:05
You know me.  I was being snarky.   

IMHO the DE recruiting process should cease.  Go back to OT only.  The Basic AES Op training of today is nothing like the Basic AES Op training of yesterday with the high failure rates.

Completely out of my lane but out of curiosity, why go back to OT only?  What about our AES Op training/employment/recruitment is different than, say, the RAAF where it's (mostly) DE?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 07, 2016, 07:15:53
Completely out of my lane but out of curiosity, why go back to OT only?  What about our AES Op training/employment/recruitment is different than, say, the RAAF where it's (mostly) DE?

Experience.   Do the guys in the RAAF fly as privates or are they Sgts and up?


I heard the SAR guys killed their DE experiment.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 07, 2016, 10:46:04
The SAR trade killed DE about 4 years ago. Our biggest problem with DE is when Avr Blogging is MOAT qualified, he/she will be stuck in a line squadron or WOps until he/she get promoted to MCpl and is at the minimum PLQ qualified. On average, that could take up to 7/8 years to achieve that rank. It can be very long for someone to hold up a line squadron position before being employed at a school.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 07, 2016, 11:46:30
A problem which was identified well before we had our first DE.  At least now the folks up top seem to have a plan and are putting it in motion.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 07, 2016, 13:40:32
Completely out of my lane but out of curiosity, why go back to OT only?  What about our AES Op training/employment/recruitment is different than, say, the RAAF where it's (mostly) DE?

I don't know what training the RAAF does, but I'll guess it is something more along the line of the RAF where "AESOPs" are Cadet Sgt's, and come out of their trg and headed to the Sqn as Sgts.  Without knowing details, I'll assume they've some trg in NCO skills (outside of operator skills/trg).

Our DE's are not like that.  They are getting their Leaf with no real know-how about NCO type skills and tasks.  They've not yet been trained (PLQ) to even a basic level and have no experience yet either.  What they do have is 'their opinion' which is more often than not based on very limited NCO trg and/or experience.

They also lack the perspective of the OT folks who've seen the other side of the fence and know which one has the greener grass.

 :2c:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 07, 2016, 13:58:43
Exactly! Also no Cpls A cat will be a lead. That's a MCpl rank. So again what to do with all these A cats who can't be lead? All these issues mentioned above are reasons to increase VOTs and reduce DEs.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 08, 2016, 17:16:06
Hi everyone,

I'll be finishing by BMQ soon! Very excited to go to winnipeg! I juste wanted to know, when do we know if we'll be NASO, ASO or MH?

Thanks
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 08, 2016, 19:46:54
At the end of IAQC when you receive your posting.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 08, 2016, 20:39:51
Thanks!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 08, 2016, 21:04:19
Thanks!

Here is a video on the AESOP Stream/Community Selection Tool (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27iMOI5Ivqs) used to determine your fate and career!    ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 08, 2016, 22:12:53
Here is a video on the AESOP Stream/Community Selection Tool (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27iMOI5Ivqs) used to determine your fate and career!    ;D

Hahaha! I see that it's a very thorough process!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 09, 2016, 00:11:55
Hi everyone,

I'll be finishing by BMQ soon! Very excited to go to winnipeg! I juste wanted to know, when do we know if we'll be NASO, ASO or MH?

Thanks

Keep in mind you could end up in a Wing Operations position.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 09, 2016, 19:50:13
Keep in mind you could end up in a Wing Operations position.

Oh, and what exactly would I be doing? Is it straight after BMQ? Or after I'm trade qualified?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 09, 2016, 20:46:33
After you are trade qualified.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 09, 2016, 22:14:02
After you are trade qualified.

Alright! Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 09, 2016, 23:05:45
I know there must be a method to the madness;  I am hoping the reason some folks might go to ground billets rather than MOAT is because there is already a long waiting list for MOAT.   :whistle:

With the OTU shut down, etc I'm REALLY hoping for a 'bumper crop' of newly-minted MOAT grads to make their way to the line sqn's this year. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 10, 2016, 07:03:12
I know there must be a method to the madness;  I am hoping the reason some folks might go to ground billets rather than MOAT is because there is already a long waiting list for MOAT.   :whistle:

With the OTU shut down, etc I'm REALLY hoping for a 'bumper crop' of newly-minted MOAT grads to make their way to the line sqn's this year.

EEV explained it a few posts back.  It makes sense and it gives them experience, plus we have already had a couple newly minted AES Ops go directly to WOPs.

Don't hold your breath for a bumper crop, we can only train two crews at a time at 404.   The Sqns aren't doing the community any favours either.  We have one ASO student on this MOAT.  ONE.  Just thinking about it pisses me off.  "But we don't need ASOs.."     Good call!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 10, 2016, 18:12:52
So, the selection tool I posted earlier is in need of refinement.  A 2 year study reviewed by a committee that makes a recommendation to PWGSC should fix that!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on May 16, 2016, 10:29:54
Thanks to all those that have been contributing to this thread...

If destined for a ground job, any chance of someone going straight to CFEWC vice WOPS if they are so inclined?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 16, 2016, 11:50:56
Yes, depending on the circumstances.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on May 17, 2016, 17:12:54
Ack, thanks.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: ghostrider on May 18, 2016, 18:29:26
hey everyone,

i just got a phone call asking me if i could go to CFB Trenton on may 27th for aircrew selection, anyone know what to expect for this? the recruiter didn't know much and when i asked if i should brush up on math or anything he just said there is no study guide, so i am basically going into this blindfolded, any heads up would be nice

thanks 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: mariomike on May 18, 2016, 19:21:39
i just got a phone call asking me if i could go to CFB Trenton on may 27th for aircrew selection, anyone know what to expect for this?

Aircrew Selection/ACS (Merged)
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=70257.550
23 pages.

if i should brush up on math

ACS math
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca++acs+math&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=4Bs9V5f6D-uM8Qf0_KbABQ&gws_rd=ssl

See also,

Canadian Forces Aircrew Selection Centre
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-establishments/cf-aircrew-selection-centre.page

Includes,
Joining Instructions
Candidate Guide
Administration Instructions
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 18, 2016, 23:12:09
AESOPs don't do ACS.  If you are being recruited for AESOP, you might want to call your recruiter and ask them to clarify.   :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 18, 2016, 23:18:27
Actually it's about to start for AES Ops as well. So he may be the first batch of candidates going thru the trial.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 19, 2016, 00:05:33
There's the good idea fairy again  :facepalm:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 19, 2016, 00:14:39
This is good.

They get weeded out before Winnipeg. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 19, 2016, 08:38:00
I don't know;  I think there is a better and more relevant way to do it.  This process likely has very little to do with determining a candidates aptitude towards *our* job.  What the trade should have done is designed a "selection week" like SAR Tech has but with tasks/environment relevant to what we do.

I fully agree with a selection process, just not necessarily this one.  It was just 'easy' to use.  Easy doesn't always = the best.

 :2c:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on May 19, 2016, 18:16:27
Cool, I did not know about this.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 20, 2016, 17:31:41
Hi everyone,
So I just received where I will be posted formy PAT platoon and I got Val-Cartier, does anyone know when the next course will start?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 20, 2016, 18:24:33
The next BAQC will start in January next year. I suppose you're VOT from an army trade in Valcartier? If so, you will be on BTL over there until your course start. I recommend you ask to go to 430 Sqn to gain experience with the aviation and aircrew world. Until then, you will be also course loaded on Sea Survival, BSERE, and BEW, all depending on course availability.   Good luck!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle_Mtl on May 20, 2016, 19:32:04
hey everyone,

i just got a phone call asking me if i could go to CFB Trenton on may 27th for aircrew selection, anyone know what to expect for this? the recruiter didn't know much and when i asked if i should brush up on math or anything he just said there is no study guide, so i am basically going into this blindfolded, any heads up would be nice

thanks

Same for me

Anyone have more info on this?

I have been to Trenton last year (for AEC, ACSO and Pilot), but I failed the test. Do they use the same test for AESOp? Is it the same level of difficulty? I'm afraid that with only one week to practice, my chances of passing are not that great.

Thanks
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 20, 2016, 20:58:45
To be honest with you none of us know what it's going to be like. This is all new to us as well. Sorry!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on May 20, 2016, 21:09:58
It's an extra hurdle but at least your trade is looking at being MORE selective when so many are going the other way.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 20, 2016, 21:39:38
It's all part of this move towards combined aircrew training for pilots, ACSOs, AES Ops and maybe a few other trades. DAS from Ottawa came for a visit in March and briefed us about this project.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 20, 2016, 23:01:19
The next BAQC will start in January next year. I suppose you're VOT from an army trade in Valcartier? If so, you will be on BTL over there until your course start. I recommend you ask to go to 430 Sqn to gain experience with the aviation and aircrew world. Until then, you will be also course loaded on Sea Survival, BSERE, and BEW, all depending on course availability.   Good luck!

I'm finishing BMQ on June 3rd and then I'm posted to val cartier, I find that odd, but oh well, looking forward to it
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 21, 2016, 07:27:48
It's all part of this move towards combined aircrew training for pilots, ACSOs, AES Ops and maybe a few other trades. DAS from Ottawa came for a visit in March and briefed us about this project.

Do you think this is a good move?  I know there have been some projects that have come and gone, I think this could be one of those.  Remember the functional wing?

My concern with this is that if they are going with combined aircrew training all the different trades be held hostage by each other's schedule.  What would be the benefit?  Other than crew exposure? 

Not to mention it is the role of the OTU to train aircrew on the specific platform and crew cohesion.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 21, 2016, 11:33:10
I know what you mean, but I think we will see this project been fully implemented. The aircraft they are looking at using would most likely be a King Air with a sensor suite package. My understanding of Futur Aircrew training is it was started by the pilot trade so they're the ones calling the shots, not the ACSO trade. I can see a financial benefit of this, as long as every trade QS requirements are met.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 21, 2016, 12:13:36
Anything that decreases the time it takes for line sqn crews to get new B cats is GOOD.  Anything that increases the time it takes for line sqn crews to get new B cats is BAD.

Making the selection more thorough is great, we needed it to happen before OFP but I also think it should be trade specific, like SAR Tech is.  Selection for an AESOP should involve things that we actually do.  I hope the ACS isn't a cookie-cutter deal and it fine-tuned but I'll not be too hopeful for that.  The CAF usually chooses "easy" over "best"... :2c:

With the MH community 'on pause' somewhat now, hopefully this will give us the new operators we need; the next 1-2 years are going to be challenging.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on May 21, 2016, 13:42:35
Yeah like I said, I commend you guys for being more selective, but it does seem like weird timing given your trade's op tempo. I guess there's never really a "good time" so sometimes they just have to go ahead and implement changes.

If the ACS is the exact same as the other trades go through, I'd also be worried about successful candidates being steered towards another MOC.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 21, 2016, 17:14:27
I know what you mean, but I think we will see this project been fully implemented. The aircraft they are looking at using would most likely be a King Air with a sensor suite package. My understanding of Futur Aircrew training is it was started by the pilot trade so they're the ones calling the shots, not the ACSO trade. I can see a financial benefit of this, as long as every trade QS requirements are met.

I don't see how it'd benefit the entire RCAF.  Given all the different aircraft we have, I don't see how a pilot destined to be a Herc driver benefits from working in a crew environment with AES Ops or even how they would work it into their training.  Sounds like needless "exposure".

Seems like a waste of money, just get the King Air and assign them to SOFCOM.

Yeah like I said, I commend you guys for being more selective, but it does seem like weird timing given your trade's op tempo. I guess there's never really a "good time" so sometimes they just have to go ahead and implement changes.

If the ACS is the exact same as the other trades go through, I'd also be worried about successful candidates being steered towards another MOC.

I'd rather have one good aircrew member than have five useless aircrew members.  If that means some *** pain now then so be it. 

I know that's a blunt statement, but we need individuals who are motivated, self-starters and most importantly have the aptitude.  I know others will disagree with me.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 21, 2016, 18:42:21
I think we need 'those who can'.  I'd just like to see more of them hit the Sqn sooner than later.   ;D

ACS as an interim, sure.  But I still think we should develop our own, trade-specific "selection"; it seems to be working for SAR Techs.  Selection could even use exercises and tools to assess suitability for MH, ASO and NASO.   :2c:

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 24, 2016, 15:45:39
I got some info from my Sqn CWO about Aircrew selection for AES Op. Basically the guys who will be going in a few days will be "Guinea Pigs" and there will be no pass/fail for them since their score will help set a benchmark for future candidates.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 24, 2016, 16:35:39
that makes a little more sense.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle_Mtl on May 24, 2016, 19:19:57
Thanks everyone for your anwers
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Islander13 on May 28, 2016, 21:04:30
Anyone receive any job offers for Aes Op yet?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 29, 2016, 00:48:42
Actually I haven't heard of any offers yet for our trade; there are a few people waiting for the big decision on the Wing I'm at.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: pascalywood on May 29, 2016, 10:32:48
Had an interview with a recruiter Friday and I can't go AES OP since I didn't bother to take Advanced maths in high school. Looks like I'm going in the Intel branch now.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 29, 2016, 13:26:21
If you are really interested in AES Op, have you considered upgrading your math while waiting for an offer or discussed what you'd need to do to make the minimum entry requirements for folks right off the street?

*Int Branch*;  AFAIK Intel is a US term.

Either way, good luck.  But personally, I'd rather be the dude collecting the stuff that processing it.   :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 29, 2016, 18:59:10
Had an interview with a recruiter Friday and I can't go AES OP since I didn't bother to take Advanced maths in high school. Looks like I'm going in the Intel branch now.

I'll never understand this.  If you can do basic algebra you can be an AES Op.  I know there are various reasons why they have the advanced math requirement, but it seems out of touch with the jobs we perform on the aircraft.

Best of luck in the Int world! 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 29, 2016, 19:31:54
I'll never understand this.  If you can do basic algebra you can be an AES Op. 

Or some of us who suck at math (raises hand) who still seem to be able to do the job.  I think (like ACS) this is a quick easy way.

I'd rather see the previously mentioned selection week that assessed CRM, ability to maintain SA in a multi-tasking environment, etc.  I bet I'd fail the math test but rock-on in the CRM/SA/multi-tasking stuff.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 29, 2016, 19:42:42
Or some of us who suck at math (raises hand) who still seem to be able to do the job.  I think (like ACS) this is a quick easy way.

I'd rather see the previously mentioned selection week that assessed CRM, ability to maintain SA in a multitasking environment, etc.  I bet I'd fail the math test but rock-on in the CRM/SA/multi-tasking stuff.

I agree.  I don't know how they can assess the SA/CRM/multi-task ability before Winnipeg.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on May 29, 2016, 21:00:00
I found out I have to upgrade my math as well, so I'm doing the course right now. Kinda sucks because already had other courses on the go, but it is what it is.

I guess even my own trade has bumped the math requirement since I joined, but dropped the math pack that I did. I wonder if I'd be able request a waiver for the math based on already functioning at a high level in a trade with the same math requirements? And various CF courses/math packs? I assumed not, so I signed up for the course - but if anyone has insight, it's appreciated. Makes me feel like I am wasting my time a bit if none of this will be useful in the trade...but still better than the Int branch, that previous poster must be nuts!





Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 29, 2016, 21:07:58
I can only speak as a LRP Line Sqn dry sensor guy (RADAR, EO/IR, ESM, MAD), but I am not strong in math and it's had no negative effect on me.  Having said that, I'd not be well suited to a ground tour EW analyst billet and there are some of those filled from within the trade.  Strong (ish) math is required there.   :2c:

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on May 29, 2016, 21:15:04
Sure but even then there are specific math packs that must be completed, or certain material that is taught which is entirely independent of someone's previous math credentials (or lack there of)

"I'd not be well suited to a ground tour EW analyst billet" - that's a good line, I will have to remember it.  ;D


But at the end of the day, like I said, it is what it is. The ACS and math may scare off a few people, which I'm sure will help the trade get dedicated candidates. It just makes for a lot more homework and a possible delay in application for some.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 29, 2016, 21:24:11
"I'd not be well suited to a ground tour EW analyst billet" - that's a good line, I will have to remember it.  ;D

 ;)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Islander13 on May 30, 2016, 15:55:35
Got my offer today for 15 July :)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 30, 2016, 23:11:57
congrats!   Enjoy your time before you hit the training system...once it starts and you end up on Sqn, its busy.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 31, 2016, 06:59:18
congrats!   Enjoy your time before you hit the training system...once it starts and you end up on Sqn, its busy.

Busy is an understatement!

Good luck!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 31, 2016, 09:15:33
That is IF you pass the course  >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 31, 2016, 09:30:37
That is IF you pass the course  >:D

Wait you guys fail people now?   :sarcasm:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 31, 2016, 09:56:21
Haha funny! Yes there's a new sheriff in town.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Geo053 on June 14, 2016, 19:58:04
Got the happy news on May 26th while I was in the field on Maple Resolve 16, got my offer for my OT from Geomatics Technician to AESOp, only took two tries but from what I have heard about the trade, should be worth the wait. Change over on 15 Jul and then go to Pet to start my PLQ on 18 Jul.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on June 15, 2016, 07:50:19
Congrats! 

Although PLQ in Pet vs PLQ in Borden...  That sucks!

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Geo053 on June 15, 2016, 11:40:06
Thanks. Unfortunately, my PLQ was scheduled before my OT came in and it was decided to keep me on it.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on June 15, 2016, 14:32:44
At least you will have it done.   It's a win all around! 

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Geo053 on June 15, 2016, 16:49:46
Will be nice to get it out of the way before all the other courses start filling my time. The other good news, is now I shouldn't have to do the army portion ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 15, 2016, 18:58:04
Congrats...one the OT and skipping the dirt tech portion of PLQ.   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Geo053 on August 10, 2016, 21:59:11
Thanks.

Currently 2 days out from finishing week 5 of my army PLQ, after that it's to the field for the week to do Stab Ops. Things are going to be busy the next few months, I get back to Edmonton from Pet on the 20th and then fly out on the 22nd to Winnipeg for AMT, then I go to Comox the end of October for Aircrew Survival Sea and then Winnipeg at the end of November for Aircrew survival Land.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 10, 2016, 23:10:02
Nov is a great time to do Land Survival (BSERE), I did mine in late Nov.  Enjoy...I think you'll find those 3 little courses enjoyable.  I had a great time at all of them.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on August 10, 2016, 23:55:04
Enjoy the courses, I assume you're slated for the Jan 2017 BAQC followed by IAQC. Come with an open mind, study hard, and stay focus on the goal on becoming an AES Op. The IAQC has been completely revamped, students now learn the Procedure Crew Trainer (PCT) and also get an Image Analysis (IA) qual out of the course.  Good luck!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Geo053 on August 14, 2016, 04:39:32
IA is something we probably should do in my old trade as well, but we could only tell you about the ground in the imagery and not man made objects, even if they were obviously a specific object.

I haven't heard anything official on courses beyond AMT and the two survival course. I am looking forward to finishing off my last army course and starting some air force courses, at least then I won't be the odd man out. Currently the sole air force member left on my PLQ, getting a bit of some razzing from all the army guys, even though I have more reg force army time than some of them, lol.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 14, 2016, 10:55:57
Jack those baby army guys up!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Geo053 on August 21, 2016, 14:55:25
Well, finished PLQ on Friday and now I head to Winnipeg tomorrow for AMT.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 21, 2016, 19:44:03
Start of a new life!  Hope you enjoy your first aircrew course and (maybe) life in the Dakota Inn. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Medic88 on October 03, 2016, 18:01:30
Good day everyone,

I am writing to inquire about the current AESOP prequalification trial being hosted in CFB Trenton. I have been invited to attend this trial serial on 20/21 Oct 2016.

I managed to obtain a set of joining instructions from the CFACS website. However, CFRC Ottawa has outlined that the selection I am scheduled on is different. After reviewing the posts in this thread, I am still uncertain as to whether or not this is the amalgamated aircrew selection that was discussed earlier. If so, can I expect the selection agenda to differ from the joining instructions I found on the CFASC. Can anyone confirm or deny? Also, can anyone provide any information about this recruiting step without compromising the secret nature of the selection process?

A bit about myself. I am Quality Oversight Manager with GardaWorld Avaition Services responsible for national audits of airport screening services. I acquired this role after releasing from the CF 2 years ago. I spent 7 years in the Reg force. I was a QL5 Med Tech upon release.

I am eager to re-enter the CF as an AESOP. This thread has a wealth of information but any other advise you can provide will be most helpful. I am certain that others will benifit from the information aswell.

Please contact me anytime to discuss.

Regards,
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 03, 2016, 18:59:06
Hey!

I am completely out of the loop on the new recruiting 'stuff';  Eagle Eye View is currently posted to the School in the 'Peg and has a pretty good sense of the pulse of the new stuff happening.  Hopefully he'll be along to edumacate you/us.   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Medic88 on November 05, 2016, 13:09:02
Hello everyone,

This post will focus on clarifying some points about the AESOP aircrew selection process and my current phase of recruiting. The goal is to provide other AESOP applicants, like myself, with added context to the sometimes confusing recruiting process.

My previous post highlights some key aircrew selection concerns I had before attending the trial serial in Trenton. Unfortunately, I will not be able to provide you with any information as it pertains to the testing, however, I do want to emphasize that this is indeed a trial. The trial intends to allow AESOP candidates to be processed through some aspects of the regular aircrew selection process. The results will be used towards buidling a database of scores that a benchmark can be drawn from. I was informed that I would have passed aircrew selection had it been a  test for grading towards selection. The tests were a lot of fun and are genuinely related to aptitude. It helps to be prepared by using the tools provided on the aircrew selection website but you either have it or you don't.

I have recently interviewed as an AESOP and was successful. I am now waiting to attend my Aircrew medical in DRDC, Toronto.

I wish anyone along the process all the luck in the world towards their quset of becoming an AESOP. Use your time at aircrew slection to try and build a realistic job overview by interviewing the pilots and BPSO present. Please reach out if you are in a similar position as I believe we will likely meet in the near future on course at 17 wing.

Be well,
Title: AESOP - Question
Post by: Proud2BCanuck on November 06, 2016, 15:48:07
Hello, I am currently in the process for enrollment as an AESOP; getting the aircrew medical tests completed at the moment. I am more or less curious as to what capacity AESOPS were used in Afghanistan, I have been told by a friend of mine that they would assist SAR techs aboard helicopters to pick up and collect wounded troops + they would also man the machine guns on our griffon and chinook helicopters. All the while also having the possibility to being posted to a air reconnaissance and UAV section. Is this true? if so, is it possible for AESOPS to be posted in an army setting despite being primarily an airforce occupation?

Cheers,

Thank you all for your service!  :remembrance: :cdn:
Title: Re: AESOP - Question
Post by: mariomike on November 06, 2016, 15:53:00
For reference, perhaps,

AESOP - Question

will be merged with,

AESOp ( MOC 081)
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=22838.875
36 pages.
Title: Re: AESOP - Question
Post by: Pickle Rick on November 06, 2016, 16:44:15
Where did your friend get this "information"?

SAR TECHs are a domestic SAR capability; they are not CSAR(such as USAF PJs).  Also, AFAIK the door gunners on Griffons and Chinooks were Army Combat Arms(eg Reserve Infantrymen).  What do you mean posted in an Army setting? Such as an Army unit(Infantry, Artillery, etc)? If so, than no.  Or do you mean something like a TAC HEL squadron?
Title: Re: AESOP - Question
Post by: Eagle Eye View on November 06, 2016, 16:48:09
If you read the thread there's a lot of info on AES Op. No the AES Ops were not door gunners in Afghanistan and no we don't get posted to army unit. The only time you'll see AES Op working with SAR Tech is when the Cornorant fleet is U/S and the Sea King is manning SAR standby.
Title: Re: AESOP - Question
Post by: Proud2BCanuck on November 06, 2016, 17:03:53
No idea where he got the information from, I never asked. Good to know though, I wanted to clarify everything before I went in with false information.

Cheers,

 :cdn: :remembrance:
Title: Re: AESOP - Question
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 06, 2016, 17:58:39
AES Ops were payload operators on the UAVs in Afghanistan and some are employed on UAVs (OUTCAN) now.

Tell your friend to stop licking lead pipes re: the CSAR BS.   :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 06, 2016, 18:02:12
The best way to find out what AES Ops do is to talk to actual AES Ops, not pilots and PSOs.

Good luck with the application!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Medic88 on November 22, 2016, 10:41:38
Eye In The Sky,

Are you permitted to provide us with the BAQC dates scheduled for 2017? If so, can you please post these dates and wheather the classes are full or not?

Thank you for all your contributions to this forum.

Regards,
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on November 22, 2016, 14:44:25
The only date I know so far is BAQC start on Jan 16. Not sure when the next one will be.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 23, 2016, 12:04:54
The only date I know so far is BAQC start on Jan 16. Not sure when the next one will be.

Eagle Eye View is the one to ask questions about Wings training in Winnipeg;  402 Sqn is the training establishment in the 'Peg that AES Ops do BAQC and IAQC (wings course) at.  As his profile shows, he is a Warrant Officer and Instructor at 402 Sqn.

I am a Line Sqn LRP type, so that's really my lane of knowledge   Dolphin Hunter has the pulse for current LRP post - Wings training stuff.   We're LRP Snr NCOs who get you after EEV gets to put you thru the ringer.   Then you go to DH's ringer.  Then you come to guys like me and become an official member of "The Pissed Off Wives and Disappointed Kids" club.   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Geo053 on December 12, 2016, 00:17:10
Finished my land survival and head off to Winnipeg for my 3's which start on 16 Jan.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 12, 2016, 09:43:14
Good stuff.  Enjoy Christmas Leave, once you start the trg it can be demanding in more than one way.
Title: Re: AESOP - Question
Post by: Loachman on December 18, 2016, 17:58:38
AES Ops were payload operators on the UAVs in Afghanistan

Only on Heron.

Sperwer and Scan Eagle were Air Defence (4 AD Regt Royal Canadian Artillery) guys. The Scan Eagle crews (two-man) were all AD. Sperwer crews had a Tac Hel Mission Commander and AD AV Operator and Payload Operator, although at least one AVO (on my/the final Roto) was a Tac Hel Tech.

Door gunners on the left-hand side of the Griffons were Cbt Arms guys (mainly Infantry, but some may have come from the other Cbt Arms. Flight Engineers manned the right-side gun. The Chinooks' two forward guns were both manned by FEs, with a Cbt Arms guy operating the ramp gun.
Title: AES OPS
Post by: Wight.M on February 16, 2017, 18:10:04
Hey everyone,

I'm looking at going into AES OPS and the only information I can gather is on the forces.ca website.
Does anyone have any more information on the trade? I want to know what it looks like day to day. Like how often you're in the aircraft, what you're doing when you're not and anything other information.

Thanks  [:)
Title: Re: AES OPS
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 16, 2017, 18:51:11
Hey everyone,

I'm looking at going into AES OPS and the only information I can gather is on the forces.ca website.
Does anyone have any more information on the trade? I want to know what it looks like day to day. Like how often you're in the aircraft, what you're doing when you're not and anything other information.

Thanks  [:)

You'll find a LOT of info in the thread linked, have a read there and if there's anything else you didn't see and want to ask about, fire away.  I know myself and a few others have posted some pretty specific info in there on the Wings training and then life after at the next training phase, and finally the first little bit once you are posted to an operational Sqn.

Maybe try starting right about here   http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,22838.msg1199182.html#msg1199182 at reply # 419.  Ignore the first link in my reply, # 421 it is a link to the AES Op thread you're already in, but back to page 1.

You can skim thru and find the posts with information in them from people in the trade.  Right off the top of my head, there's myself, Dolphin_Hunter and Eagle Eye View who are all AES Ops who've posted a considerable bit of info.

How often you're flying can very.  My busiest month, I logged 112.3 hours (which requires a waiver to fly that much...it might not sound like much but it is), I've also had a month where I only flew 3.2 hours on a pilot training flight (basically doing take offs and landings, flying as the 4th crewman looking after the back end).  When not flying, we have a ton of qualifications to keep current, we do training and simulators, professional development courses, and quite a bit of time once you are a Top Category operator is spent developing junior operators and helping run a crew if/when you are appointed as a Lead AES Op on Sqn. 

There are both planned and last minute trips and deployments, launches if you are holding Standby, etc.  Its a good trade, its a busy trade.  If you're looking for Monday to Friday, 8 to 4 this ís likely NOT the trade for you.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on March 23, 2017, 23:42:25
Hello, Does anyone know when are the next courses? I'm currently waiting to go on the BAQC but haven't received a date yet.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on March 24, 2017, 20:14:52
Next BAQC should start around mid-July with 12 students.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on March 25, 2017, 09:26:55
Next BAQC should start around mid-July with 12 students.
Great! Thank you for the reply. Of course I will wait for the message to come in before anything.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: StoneRock on April 05, 2017, 20:21:00
Hey guys, first post. I'm currently going through the application process for AESOp (just finishing my last semester of high school). I've done everything and it looks like it's going well, I'm just waiting to get my medical cleared and hopefully everything is well and I'll be on the waiting list.

My question is: Is the contract length 7 years? During the interview I believe I was told it was 7 years but I'm not exactly sure whether the captain said it may be UP to 7 years or if it is in fact that length of time. The duration is not an issue, I'm just confirming as I would like to make sure I'm aware of all the information regarding the trade.

Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 05, 2017, 21:19:56
I'd have to look to see if the TOS (Terms of Service) Sequence for our trade has changed.  It used to be a 5 year engagement for direct entry, I think.  I've sent a reminder to myself to check tomorrow and will update the current TOS Sequence for you.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Northmar on April 06, 2017, 07:44:30
First post as well, so first off hello everyone.

StoneRock, I'm a DE AES Op that just finished BMQ back in January and currently on OJE in Greenwood. At least in my case and the other AES Op Jr I've talked to, our VIE is 7 years.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 06, 2017, 14:28:27
First post as well, so first off hello everyone.

StoneRock, I'm a DE AES Op that just finished BMQ back in January and currently on OJE in Greenwood. At least in my case and the other AES Op Jr I've talked to, our VIE is 7 years.

Sounds like good confirmation for DE VIE length and makes sense.  By the time you get thru training etc you'll be well into that engagement.

Hope you are being gainfully employed on the Wing; there's worse places to do OJE.   :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: StoneRock on April 06, 2017, 17:23:41
Thanks for the help guys
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 07, 2017, 16:03:20
Took a look today at the relevant regulation, the current TOS Sequence for AES Op is VIE 7 / CE 5 / CE 5 / IE 25.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 21, 2017, 19:29:45
Just an update on the way ahead for the AES Op trade from a recruiting perspective;  recent years, there was more of a trend to take more Direct Entry (off the street, CFRC types) than either CT or VOT.  This is going to change, beginning this year.

VOTs (remusters) will be the group we take the largest % of new AES Ops from, as in *well over half* of all new AES Ops-Jrs will come from VOT applicants.  I know in recent years, there has been some people comment on here, or elsewhere, that even after the Direct Entry trial (officially I think it was 3 or 5 years long, so 2009 to 2011 or 2014) the intake numbers still seemed to lean towards DE applicants.  No more.  The trade is still taking Direct Entry applicants, but at a reduced number from previous years.  CT (UT) number remains unchanged (about 1 in 10 will come from CT).  I don't know why the CT numbers are low, but I'd hazard a guess that the CT process being broken and timely are huge factors...again, just my opinion.

For the folks who may have applied for VOT in recent years and not been selected, if you still are don't be hesitant to contact the W/BPSO office and enquire again about remustering to AES Op.  I haven't been keeping up to date on if the VOTP CANFORGEN is released, dates, all that stuff but if you have any questions, post them or PM me etc and I'll see what I can do to help you out with the process.  I am not a trade recruiter or anything, but I've been thru the hoops like the rest of the trade has and might have some advice.

Good luck to anyone who has or is planning on putting their VOT application in, CT or direct entry applicants...and yes, if you are selected you'll go thru the AES Op Aircrew Selection phase now, just as a heads up.  Don't let that scare you off though.

(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinknp_400_400/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAAYAAAAJDFkMzBkMmFiLTdlYmQtNDc0YS05OThjLThkNTI3YTJlYTg4ZA.jpg)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on April 21, 2017, 21:54:40
How many AES OP's are the forces looking to take in this year? Ive listed it as one of my choices. Is AES OP similar to NES OP curiculum wise? Sucks I missed the DE trial, Im coming back as a re-entry.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 21, 2017, 22:03:52
I don't know the exact numbers but I would guess somewhere around 24 ish...as a WAG...no idea how are trg and employment is compared to NES OP.  I'd be completely guessing.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on April 21, 2017, 22:15:29
How many AES OP's are the forces looking to take in this year? Ive listed it as one of my choices. Is AES OP similar to NES OP curiculum wise? Sucks I missed the DE trial, Im coming back as a re-entry.

No.

There are some similar tasks.  AES Ops are basically NCI Ops, Sonar Ops and NES Ops combined into one trade (that's the short answer).

We are like flying Swiss Army knives, don't forget your spork.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on April 21, 2017, 23:42:23
Thanks for the quick responses Eye and Dolphin. Just realized with 20/40 vision I'm a no go for AES OP. When I was in before I had 20/20 but I guess my vision has degraded pretty quick since then. Seems like a really fun trade, jealous of all who get in!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on April 22, 2017, 07:39:17
Thanks for the quick responses Eye and Dolphin. Just realized with 20/40 vision I'm a no go for AES OP. When I was in before I had 20/20 but I guess my vision has degraded pretty quick since then. Seems like a really fun trade, jealous of all who get in!

It can be, but then again so can any other trade.  It's what you make of it.

I have noticed since we have started taking in DE I have found that some of the kids always seem to be looking for greener pastures, which is good.   However, when it was an OT trade, we were the greener pasture.  Rarely did someone OT in and then try to OT to another trade or release.



Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on April 22, 2017, 08:25:16
It can be, but then again so can any other trade.  It's what you make of it.

I have noticed since we have started taking in DE I have found that some of the kids always seem to be looking for greener pastures, which is good.   However, when it was an OT trade, we were the greener pasture.  Rarely did someone OT in and then try to OT to another trade or release.

Its easy to get into a negative mindset i think, and believe the grass is greener just like you say.  AES OP looks and sounds really great. The ones ive talked to on ship or on base have never said anything bad about it. Stoker on the other hand... :P
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on April 22, 2017, 10:32:26
IMO the aircrew trade in general are the greener pasture. The AES Op trade really works hard to keep the unnecessary BS to a minimum, and wants our junior guys to focus on flying and operating the sensors. Usually the ones leaving the trade chose to go Officer.   
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 22, 2017, 13:29:47
Some of it, a part at least in LRP, is the folks who wanted to 'dry' and were made to go 'wet', or vice versa.  Personally, I think a lot of the current issues with Jnr NCO/NCMs leaving or wanting to leave will be solved with the switch back to most intake going back to VOTs, who have some perspective of life in the CAF as a NCM outside the aircrew world.  I know most of the CTs that came to our Sqn are either out, or looking at getting out.  DEs bring their pro's, but also con's.  I think the trade is making the correct move by concentrating on VOTs again in the next few years.

Agreed on the Officer part, some of our guys are not signing their TOS offers, mostly because they want that UTPNCM thing and its not being supported the way they think it should be by the CofC.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on April 22, 2017, 14:05:05
There were a few releases a few years ago that raised some eyebrows.

As for the wet/dry bit.  People have to realize they can't be picky and that every AES Op now has to learn acoustics. 

Unnecessary BS, I would have to disagree, our trade is currently moving in all directions with no real vision.  Don't believe me?  Look at the wonderful job they've done with the ASO seat.  Even the changes in Winnipeg, which should be for the better, are not.  When you consider the software/sensors students are learning in the PCT are completely different than the suite on the CT-142.  The lack of communication between all the training units (402/404/406/ADAC) just blows my mind.

IMHO the AES Op trade is in a very fragile state and we need to get this ****** back on the rails.



Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 22, 2017, 14:30:25
There were a few releases a few years ago that raised some eyebrows.

Ya, the last few years have had those it seems.  You missed the townhall yesterday...so I'll pass the message along.  THE FUTURE IS BRIGHT!!!!!   8)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on April 22, 2017, 14:44:02
You have no idea how disappointed I am that I missed that.  I'm being serious.

Aviators to Ops jobs as a first posting?  Seriously?  CFEWC?  What's next? Posting Aviators to ADAC?

Let them build the experience and knowledge necessary then send them to a non-flying position.

 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 22, 2017, 15:03:36
That might be changing.  OFP moved back to post-OTU/MOAT...now there is efforts to create a USQ for the W Ops/ESS types, etc or they won't be OFP.  No spec with Wings now.

Your boss was there, he likely sent out an email to the Herd as there was only 4ish folks there from your combined bullpins.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on April 22, 2017, 15:16:53
OFP moved past UTO/MOAT is a good move IMO, it will reflect the true numbers of the trade.

Quote
The lack of communication between all the training units (402/404/406/ADAC) just blows my mind.

I can assure you 402 has good comms with 404. Even the ASO side, we now have an ex 404 member as our Acoustic SME. As for 406, we do have comms but it's true it is not enough. The reason is they have enough on their plate wrt 148 course development and as a community, they are still learning the new Helo. So yes 402 mostly communicate with the LRP because they have enough knowledge and exposure on PCT and what kind of attribute they want for their students, which in terms we produce for them. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 22, 2017, 16:05:37
As for the wet/dry bit.  People have to realize they can't be picky and that every AES Op now has to learn acoustics.

true, but the reality with this younger generation, who aren't locked down somewhat with a mortgage and kids, etc is they just end up not signing their next TOS.  They have options, and if their CAF career is XX more years of being an ASO/NASO and they don't like it, they are walking away and the trade has to recruit, train the new person from scratch again.  What is that, roughly, from arriving at 402 to being a brand new A cat...4 years?

That stuff is hurting us in the near, middle and long term.  I know the TOS sequence now starts with a 7 year VIE, but in some cases that's just when people are ready to be Leads and experienced instructors.

Lots of things to fix...where to start?  VOT heavy intake is one good step IMO and so is moving the OFP, IMO.  Maybe we should be like the FEs and not handing out wings until MOAT.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on April 22, 2017, 21:22:28
One big military "WTF" moment I had was when I looked into your trade. I was told I didn't have the correct math credit from high school. Apparently I was suitable to apply for ACSO, but not AES Op. This was while serving in a trade that also required the same math (I was grandfathered) and I had BEW plus another related specialty course you guys can pick up in non-flying positions.

As someone that was already completing university on my own time, the high school math course wasn't exactly my top priority. Seemed like the system was a bit too rigid on this issue. Especially if it's the experienced OT types you want to grab.





Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 22, 2017, 21:36:36
Ya not sure what that is all about...math isn't my strong suit and I have no issues in my job.  They upped the educational stuff hoping it would result in a better DE type I think.  Now...results like you just posted above.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Spectrum on April 22, 2017, 22:00:12
Don't get me wrong, any dedicated person can take night school or take leave and go to summer school. But the OT types have to face the reality of life at the same time. The look on the face of a spouse when explaining night high school, as opposed to being paid to finish university and then getting a promotion afterwards, for instance...   ;D

But I've been impressed by what I've seen from your trade up close, so I can definitely vouch to any other readers that AES Op (and aircrew in general) is a good go!



Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 23, 2017, 00:59:30
Well....FWIW...I have 3 years of college BUT my *high school* education was a GED in my mid-20s, and I seem to be doing pretty well (Advanced Category Non-Acoustics, and a Crew Lead).  Or...people just feel sorry for me.

I'm ok with either, really... ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on April 23, 2017, 09:06:13
Well....FWIW...I have 3 years of college BUT my *high school* education was a GED in my mid-20s, and I seem to be doing pretty well (Advanced Category Non-Acoustics, and a Crew Lead).  Or...people just feel sorry for me.

I'm ok with either, really... ;D

Pretty good considering some a$$hole tried his hardest to punt you aside early on in your AES Op training.

Overall it's a good trade and motivated individuals will have no problems advancing.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hogdogz on April 26, 2017, 15:45:14
Hey everyone I just wanted to reach out and see if there are any other CT candidates out there that may be able to give me any sort of insight into the timeline. I originally put my CT in back in 2013. Finally heard back in December of 2016. I completed my Aircrew Med and interview in January and was told I should hear one way or another by end of fiscal. I've reached out to my broker multiple times but nothing. Now I've been in the army long enough to know that these things take time but just figured I would ask. Would the next course dates play into it at all?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 26, 2017, 21:57:36
It might play into it.  The initial occupation training in Wpg is undergoing some changes and may affect when selection and intake happens.  The word I got recently was this is temporary though.

Eagle Eye View is the guy in the know about all things Winnipeg related. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on April 27, 2017, 00:03:41
The next course is scheduled to start mid July timeframe. Then the one after that is Jan 2018. These are courses of 12 students and as mentioned by EITS, the BAQC is undergoing drastic changes. IAQC will no longer exist and is now under 1 course called BAQC. The length of the course will be about 5 1/2 months and will have a flying phase and multiple sims. You will also have to go through ACS before been accepted into the trade. If you have more  questions let me know and I'll be happy to answer them.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Medic88 on April 27, 2017, 08:40:47
The next course is scheduled to start mid July timeframe. Then the one after that is Jan 2018. These are courses of 12 students and as mentioned by EITS, the BAQC is undergoing drastic changes. IAQC will no longer exist and is now under 1 course called BAQC. The length of the course will be about 5 1/2 months and will have a flying phase and multiple sims. You will also have to go through ACS before been accepted into the trade. If you have more  questions let me know and I'll be happy to answer them.
Thanks for passing on this info, Eagle Eye. I was told that I was selected for AESOP DE about over 3 weeks ago by my CFRC. I suspect that the new course may have played into the delay in receiving an offer as I was told that I need to be course loaded first. I am a recruit school by pass.

If you don't mind, I have a few questions to help myself and others put things into perspective.

Will the new BAQC be considered a blended QL3/QL5?
Will Wings still be awarded following this phase?
Will posting messages provided following the new BAQC?
Has the OFP officially changed to require OTU/MOAT? If so, will spec pay only be provided after specific aircraft training?

Following trade qualifications, if selected for NASO/ASO or MH, is there a possibility of changing your designation later in your career? Or are you a NASO for life if selected for NASO?
Are the Cyclones up and running yet? I have my eye set on this one. If not, what does an AESOP do at a MH posting if our Sea Kings are no longer in service?

Thanks for all your help. Looking forward to hearing from you.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on April 27, 2017, 09:16:47
The new BAQC is QL3 only, however Wings will still be awarded upon completion and you will be posted to a Sqn. OFP is now post MOAT/OTU which means you won't get spec pay until you've completed it.

Although rare, it is still possible to cross over MH. However I haven't yet seen someone going from NASO to ASO. To be honest once you qualify on a platform you'll most likely stay on that type of sensor until you reach WO level.

Now as for MH, the community is going through drastic changes. Having said that, it is still possible to go MH from Winnipeg. I had my last 2 students posted to Halifax for Cyclone training.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 27, 2017, 17:04:03
I never to ask about Spec pay at the townhall last Friday, never thought of it to be honest.  I knew the mentioned Wings still out of Winnipeg, and OFP being moved back to MOAT/OTU/the *supposed to be happening USQ for W Ops/ESS*.

I guess I just assumed spec pay would still be linked to QL5, and that the BAQC+ was still a 5's qual.   ???


 :facepalm: got it on the second read. Wpg = QL3 with Wings.  QL5/OFP moved to MOAT/OTU/ESS USQ.

I must have licked a glue stick or lead pipe or something before posting this in reply.   :D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on April 27, 2017, 18:48:49
Because I'm a common sense kind of fella, it'd probably be wise for the MH fleet to acquire a MCpl ASO/NASO type to bring some experience to the Cyclone fleet.  It'd be ideal but we can't spare anyone as we have a severe shortage of ASOs.  (3 at 404... should be 7..  Tracking submarines passively is an art form and is never black and white.

We currently have an ex-NASO currently on our ASO MOAT.  I started as a NASO as well.

Finally.  I'll throw this out there.  We could potentially have Aviators (ASO A cats) sitting on the Aurora passing passive information to the Tac resulting in weapons leaving the bomb bay.  With no one backing them up.  It could be a team of Aviators working to classify the submarine as the ASOs are the only ones trained and qualified to analyze.

I may be a bit off in my thinking, but I doubt there's many Aviators/Ptes/OS in the CAF with that kind of responsibility.



Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 27, 2017, 22:27:42
We currently have an ex-NASO currently on our ASO MOAT.  I started as a NASO as well.

left coast guy?

Quote
Finally.  I'll throw this out there.  We could potentially have Aviators (ASO A cats) sitting on the Aurora passing passive information to the Tac resulting in weapons leaving the bomb bay.  With no one backing them up.  It could be a team of Aviators working to classify the submarine as the ASOs are the only ones trained and qualified to analyze.

I may be a bit off in my thinking, but I doubt there's many Aviators/Ptes/OS in the CAF with that kind of responsibility.

Ya...I don't see use ever winning that fight for Spec w/out the Cpl deal (if that's where you were going).  Heck, they forced the *pyramid* rank structure and now look at the shitshow because of that and the downranking that should not have happened in some spots.

Personally, I think they should leave the Spec pay at QL5 and move the OFP as briefed and I am *hoping* that is what they did.  OFP and spec aren't rigidly tied to each other; my previous trade I was OFP at QL3 but, Spec was as per normal - Cpl with QL5.

The Horsemen are having a Change of Command parade in the near future so...who knows what changes will happen/not happen in the future!  Everything is bell bottoms...wait a few years, it will be back in style!

As for hurting for wet and dry guys...come across the parking lot to your old stomping grounds...as Pri 4, we are in THE HURT LOCKER.  Our Stds ASO...I wouldn't want to take his blood pressure at the end of each day!   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on April 28, 2017, 06:44:31
I was more or less thinking.  Advance promotions for those who upgrade and are still Aviators!

Manning!  But at least 402 is good to go.   Taking yet another solid ASO performer out of the community.  Asshats

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 28, 2017, 16:01:40
THE FUTURE IS BRIGHT!!!!!!!!!!   just call over and ask G.Z. he'll tell you that.    :rofl:

 ;D

415 Pri 5, line Sqn Pri 4 but we have crew posn's not filled.   :dunno:

TGIFF!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Messerschmitt on May 02, 2017, 14:45:13
Some of it, a part at least in LRP, is the folks who wanted to 'dry' and were made to go 'wet', or vice versa.  Personally, I think a lot of the current issues with Jnr NCO/NCMs leaving or wanting to leave will be solved with the switch back to most intake going back to VOTs, who have some perspective of life in the CAF as a NCM outside the aircrew world.  I know most of the CTs that came to our Sqn are either out, or looking at getting out.  DEs bring their pro's, but also con's.  I think the trade is making the correct move by concentrating on VOTs again in the next few years.

Agreed on the Officer part, some of our guys are not signing their TOS offers, mostly because they want that UTPNCM thing and its not being supported the way they think it should be by the CofC.

Hi, can you explain some of the acronyms.
What do you mean by "dry" vs "wet"? Auroras flying over land vs over water?
VOT's? Voluntary occupational transfer?
CT's? Component transfer? Then what's the difference between CT and VOT?
DE? Direct entry?
UTPNCM? Is that an NCM entry plan?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 02, 2017, 15:04:35
Wet – Acoustic Sensor Operator.  Responsible for analyzing information obtained from sonobuoys (wet sensors).   Also trained in EO/IR operation and Ordnance duties.  (Aurora)
Dry – Non-Acoustic Sensor Operators. Responsible for operation of Radar, ESM, MAD, EO/IR and Ordnance duties (dry sensors).  (Aurora)

MH AES Ops will be responsible for wet and dry sensor operation.

VOT?  Yes.

DE?  Yes.

UTPNCM.  Once in you can apply for an officer trade & university program (very short answer). 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Medic88 on May 02, 2017, 15:20:42
Hi, can you explain some of the acronyms.
What do you mean by "dry" vs "wet"? Auroras flying over land vs over water?
VOT's? Voluntary occupational transfer?
CT's? Component transfer? Then what's the difference between CT and VOT?
DE? Direct entry?
UTPNCM? Is that an NCM entry plan?
Please don't take the feedback that i'm about to give you too negatively. The  AESOP's that have contributed to this thread throughout the years have provided it's readers with a wealth of information about the trade. Please take the time to review the past 38 pages for answers to your questions in the future. These are regularily used acronyms that have been discussed and outlined thoroughly here and in the military administration page. I'm not sure what your ambitions are or why you're asking but I am under the very clear impression that this is not a trade that is spoon fed or made up of amateur's. Take the time to do your research as it will demonstrate competence and resourcefulness. I recommend you work on both if you want to have are successful interview for this and any other trade you're interested in. That said, It seems that Dolphin_Hunter was in a good mood today.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 03, 2017, 23:00:04
Please don't take the feedback that i'm about to give you too negatively. The  AESOP's that have contributed to this thread throughout the years have provided it's readers with a wealth of information  Dolphin_Hunter was in a good mood today.

 :rofl:  He must have been able to skip out on the townhall this morning then!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 04, 2017, 06:42:26
:rofl:  He must have been able to skip out on the townhall this morning then!!

Nope.  I lost the entire day. 

I was in a good mood for approx 20 minutes the other day, which was when that post was made.

However, the pension office has indeed confirmed that I can retire with an immediate annuity.   So my overall mental health has slid back into the yellow.  Which is good news! 

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 04, 2017, 16:57:16
just remember...the future...is *bright!


* I keep saying that is the train approaching, fast, but...everyone has their own interpretation.   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Pagan on May 04, 2017, 17:03:04
Never been a better time?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 04, 2017, 17:27:40
You guys are inspiring me confidence for the trade  ;D Just kidding, can't wait to be at 402!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Pagan on May 04, 2017, 17:46:38
Er...ummm

Never been a better time!

(edited for inspiration)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 04, 2017, 19:15:00
Don't get us wrong.  Its truly a good trade;  there are some challenges that people getting in the trade likely won't have to face once they are in the positions we (EEV, DH and me) are in at this time; instructors and line sqn Snr NCO/WO challenges.  I've seen enough things to reasonably believe those issues will be resolved significantly in the next 2-3 years.  One of those big changes, IMO, is increasing the VOT intake to *more than half*.

The Direct Entry piece was a good idea at the time, and needed.   The one thing they don't bring that an OT does is experience.  Jnr NCO experience, a DE has zero chance of already having their PLQ and leadership experience.  Once they get on Sqn, upgrade to Advanced Category...well they kind of peak there for a while.  Not ideal candidates for Lead AES Op, without PLQ they can't be instructors.  Its a bottleneck.   So, sure they can be A Cats on a crew, but have no mentoring or training ability or experience and can't progress themselves or others without a lot of supervision by the Lead. 

It was recognized the trade needed to intake more VOTs to capitalize on their experience and Jnr NCO abilities and the intake was adjusted.  We should see the benefit of this in 2-3 years.

The op tempo has been EXTREMELY high for both LRP and MH the past few years;  LRP because of OP IMPACT and MH because of the Cyclone coming into service.  Those effects will also start to fade away in the next 1-2 years or so. 

Those things all have a trickle down effect across the trade.  402 needs to produce more baby AES Ops, 404 and 406 need to train them once they are semi-useful into LRP/MH flyers, and those of us at the line sqn's have to do all our lines of tasking with 'what we have'.  402 and 404 need to draw experienced folks from the line sqn's to conduct their training, the line sqn needs experienced operators to be able to fly, and the balancing/juggling act can become somewhat complicated, with everyone getting some but not all of what they need or want.

But, for those entering the trade now, by the time you leave your 1st tour, that should all be water under the bridge and things should be more "ops normal" for everyone day to day.   :2c:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 04, 2017, 21:09:46
I'm not worried, I had tons of fun on the different aircrew courses I did. I'm really looking forward to getting into the trade.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 05, 2017, 06:47:41
I'm not worried, I had tons of fun on the different aircrew courses I did. I'm really looking forward to getting into the trade.

And I'm looking forward to seeing you at 404.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 05, 2017, 18:09:16
And I'm looking forward to seeing you at 404.

 [:D cant wait! But what happens if get sent to 406 :o
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 05, 2017, 20:25:11
[:D cant wait! But what happens if get sent to 406 :o

Probably better to start off in MH anyway, that way you won't know what you are missing.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 05, 2017, 22:10:21
Probably better to start off in MH anyway, that way you won't know what you are missing.
In all honesty, if I had to choose right now I would'nt even know because both platform are really interesting from what I know of the different people I spoke with. I don't think I would mind any of the two.  :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 05, 2017, 22:24:47
In all honesty, if I had to choose right now I would'nt even know because both platform are really interesting from what I know of the different people I spoke with. I don't think I would mind any of the two.  :nod:

The Cyclone looks fun!  The airport stinks (I'm ex-Navy).   

I'd love to play with the sensors on that chopper.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 05, 2017, 22:49:33
The Cyclone looks fun!  The airport stinks (I'm ex-Navy).   

I'd love to play with the sensors on that chopper.

And who knows, maybe we'll get an aurora replacement too someday in the next 50 years
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on May 06, 2017, 02:53:39
And who knows, maybe we'll get an aurora replacement too someday in the next 50 years

 :rofl:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Messerschmitt on May 06, 2017, 03:39:20
In all honesty, if I had to choose right now I would'nt even know because both platform are really interesting from what I know of the different people I spoke with. I don't think I would mind any of the two.  :nod:

It's easy. Do you want to be gone from home months or weeks?

And who knows, maybe we'll get an aurora replacement too someday in the next 50 years

You mean UAV replacement?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 06, 2017, 16:41:55
It's easy. Do you want to be gone from home months or weeks?

You mean UAV replacement?

Good question, I don't mind being gone for months, and for the UAV, are they any that can carry torpedo? I was thinking Militarized C-series lol
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 06, 2017, 20:07:45

You mean UAV replacement?

It'll be a while before we have UAVs capable of performing ASW tasks.  Lots of ideas, nothing proven.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Medic88 on May 08, 2017, 15:24:25
I am pleased to announce that I have officially received my offer of employment from the Canadian Armed Forces. I will be enrolled as a DE AESOP recruit school bypass and posted to 17 Wing Winnipeg on 7 June 2017.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to his forum throughout the years. You have provided me with a clear vision of a career that provides fulfillment and purpose in ways few other professions do. I'm excited to get started.

Although, my wife wasn't to happy to hear that she was unwillingly enrolled into the pissed off wives and disappointed kids club. Jokes aside, my wife and I look forward to meeting all of the AESOP's on this forum throughout my career.

Best of luck to anyone applying, DE, OT or otherwise. My application took about a year. Please don't give up. Stay active and engaged. Ensure your success by doing everything you can to facilitate the process.

Please PM me anytime to chat.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on May 08, 2017, 15:30:43
Congrats.

Best of luck at 402.

 :bravo:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 08, 2017, 17:04:50
I am pleased to announce that I have officially received my offer of employment from the Canadian Armed Forces. I will be enrolled as a DE AESOP recruit school bypass and posted to 17 Wing Winnipeg on 7 June 2017.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to his forum throughout the years. You have provided me with a clear vision of a career that provides fulfillment and purpose in ways few other professions do. I'm excited to get started.

Although, my wife wasn't to happy to hear that she was unwillingly enrolled into the pissed off wives and disappointed kids club. Jokes aside, my wife and I look forward to meeting all of the AESOP's on this forum throughout my career.

Best of luck to anyone applying, DE, OT or otherwise. My application took about a year. Please don't give up. Stay active and engaged. Ensure your success by doing everything you can to facilitate the process.

Please PM me anytime to chat.

Congrats! Are you loaded on the next course in July?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Medic88 on May 08, 2017, 21:05:03
Congrats! Are you loaded on the next course in July?
Thanks! My offer didn't include a course loading message. I doubt I'm on the July serial though. With 2 courses a year and 12 students on each, I'll be lucky if I make the next one that usually runs in January.

Since BAQC is now an amalgamated ql3/5, I'm certain that I will need to do AMT, Basic Lands Op Survival Course/Basic SERE crse, and the Sea Survival crse before I'm even considered. I'm just itching to get my feet wet.

See you at 402? You already there?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 08, 2017, 21:42:10
Thanks! My offer didn't include a course loading message. I doubt I'm on the July serial though. With 2 courses a year and 12 students on each, I'll be lucky if I make the next one that usually runs in January.

Since BAQC is now an amalgamated ql3/5, I'm certain that I will need to do AMT, Basic Lands Op Survival Course/Basic SERE crse, and the Sea Survival crse before I'm even considered. I'm just itching to get my feet wet.

See you at 402? You already there?

They're all fun courses! I think you need your AMT and sea survival at minimum for the BAQC if I'm not mistaken. I'm not at 402 yet, I'm on an OJT in Valcartier but  I was told to expect to be at 402 in July
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on May 08, 2017, 23:04:16
At a minimum, you will need AMT and BEW to be eligible for BAQC.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: xoulliam on May 08, 2017, 23:30:49
At a minimum, you will need AMT and BEW to be eligible for BAQC.
Thanks for the correction
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 16, 2017, 20:17:21
It's easy. Do you want to be gone from home months or weeks?

LRP and MH do *both* of those, in reality.  I was gone A LOT in 2016; complete months I was gone - Jan/Feb/Mar/Oct/Nov/Dec.  Partial months I was gone - May/Jun/Jul/Sep. 

Quote
You mean UAV replacement?

Replacement would suggest we have a UAV (in the RCAF) now...JUSTAS is moving ahead like cold molasses going uphill backwards in a Manitoba January morning.   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 16, 2017, 20:24:56
Sea survival and Air Ops Land Survival or whatever it is called now (BSERE back when I did it) are as fun as you let yourself make them.  I enjoyed all of it.  Winnipeg and MOAT are hard, lots of studying if you aren't the "do the minimum to get by" type and if you are...that will catch up to you at some point.   >:D

For those who don't like the RCAF...http://www.defencecareers.mil.nz/air-force/jobs/air-warfare-specialist  and http://www.defencecareers.mil.nz/reenlist-overseas/overseas-applicants

 ;)
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Sapper989 on June 15, 2017, 13:11:18
Hello everyone, this topic has a welt of information!

The only question i am left with is regarding family. I have a spouse and 2 young kid and i am currently posted in wainwright, AB... she isnt really trilled at the idea of being left alone for 2 years with kids when all her family is in QC...

Will i get to go back to PAT in wainwright between courses or once i finish winnipeg i am of to the east coast? At that point can my family be posted has well?

Thank you for the information, i went through the 40 page and did not quite find that answer.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on June 15, 2017, 16:13:04
Ok here is an update for everyone wrt the BAQC here in Winnipeg. The IAQC no longer exist, the new course will still be called BAQC (QL3), but will have a flying phase and new Procedural Crew Trainer phase as well. The new course is roughly 5 1/2 to 6 months long. If you pass, you'll get your Wing and receive a posting message before heading out to MOAT or OTU. The first course is set to begin July 10 with 12 students. The next one will start Jan 2018.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on June 15, 2017, 17:20:40
Ok here is an update for everyone wrt the BAQC here in Winnipeg. The IAQC no longer exist, the new course will still be called BAQC (QL3), but will have a flying phase and new Procedural Crew Trainer phase as well.

They should take the flying phase out back and put a bullet in it.  So what is considered the QL5 now?

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on June 15, 2017, 18:14:06
MOAT and OTU is the QL5. As for the flying phase, I disagree with you. I've seen the big difference between classroom, trainers and flying. There a significant difference and in every courses I see students struggle with that. Even though the tasks are simple, they struggle completing it. We're also in the process of purchasing an EOIR on the CT-142.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on June 15, 2017, 18:42:47
I only ask because on their MPRR the QL5 qualification usually gets entered after Winnipeg.  I didn't think we could award a QL5 for an OTU as the OTU is not the same for every AES Op.  We have 3 streams, MH, ASO and NASO..

I only mention killing the flying portion because it doesn't reinforce what they learn in the PCT.  It just seems like a waste of resources. 

It's ok everyone disagrees with me!

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on June 15, 2017, 20:39:57
We're also in the process of purchasing an EOIR on the CT-142.

So...when do the OP NANOOKs start?   >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 15, 2017, 21:33:31
So how many actual flights are they getting on QL3 and what are the tasks they are actually doing?

Sitting the QSWB for the NASO A and B Cat quals this week, one thing I really wish I'd of had time to do was check out the new QS/TP you guys are working off of.  I like the PCT idea, but does it lead into the actual flying or not so much?

Just hope this new QL3 leads in nicely to what the folks at 404 and 406 have to do, and that whole process produces someone we can use on the line sqn...quick look at the last 2 MOATs, decent Baby Bs coming out the pipe.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 15, 2017, 21:34:00
So...when do the OP NANOOKs start?   >:D

And R-12 !
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on June 15, 2017, 22:51:00
New BAQC is broken into 4 phases. Phase 1 is academics of about 4 weeks. Phase 2 is MVASP for about for 4 weeks also, phase 3 is PCT for 5 weeks with 8 actual assessed missions, and lastly phase 4 is the flying phase that has 4 flights plus the trainers. Each phases requires a checkride to pass and move on. The phases don't really build on each other and by what I mean for this is we can teach phase 3 before phase 2, etc, it'll be much easier for scheduling purpose. Although the course is 12 students, we will break the course into 2 groups of 6 students during phase 3 and 4. 6 students will be doing PCT while the remaining do their flying phase. Once done, we switch them. That's the only way I could make this course under 6 months while teaching everything the QS requires us to teach. Ultimately the goal is to surge the output to 30 students per year, so 3 courses a year with some overlapping. That's the best I can explain it in a nutshell. Trust me, the instructor cadre has a lot of operational experience and we've put a lot of work into developing this course with emphasis on practical applications versus death by ppt.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on June 16, 2017, 02:09:24
I hope someone pulls their head out of their *** before they surge.

We have 3 (should be 7) ASOs at 404 (1 Standards and 2 in the pit).  The most we can handle on MOAT is 4 students at a time.  So before they surge or before they pull another ASO into the centre of excellence at 402, they really need to wake the frig up. 

4 weeks of MVASP though?  We only teach 2 of MVASP weeks on MOAT.  4 weeks seems long.  Or is that the entire ASW portion?

...quick look at the last 2 MOATs, decent Baby Bs coming out the pipe.


You're welcome!

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on June 16, 2017, 08:42:34
It's the entire ASW portion for 12 students. That's the difference.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 16, 2017, 16:59:12
And here we see one of the reasons we take so long to get flyers on Sqn...too much *common to all* training.  MVASP on the QL3 for all is an example;  zero relevance to someone who will end up LRP NASO.  RADAR and ESM PCTs...zero relevance to someone going LRP ASO.  MH...I don't know about that side, and what will / will not be relevant to those folks with the Cyclone.

Honestly, the BEST solution we as a trade could do it:

- shut down AES OP training in Wpg.

- move the MH background folks to 406, move the LRP background types to 404.

- let each community run their own QL3 with basic *common to all training* (that way you can post them and not have everyone stuck in Wpg and then USQ training away from family for so long), then MOAT/OTU for QL5 (Wings after graduation with a platform Cat).  After everyone has Wings, the Horsemen can post people to the west coast as needed.  voila.  The line Sqns still FG for the TEs, same as now, and outlying units. 

I know you guys at 402 have to *please all customers* kind of thing, but teaching MVASP to someone destined for LRP NASO is 4 wasted weeks of effort, time, salaries.  Same for ESM/RADAR etc for anyone going dry.  Waste of time and resources.  There's way too much *common to all* because the trade doesn't flush people out into the *sub-occ* before starting training.  Change that, save money, save effort and save TIME. 

Too really do what we need to do, we need to identify who is going to what I will refer to incorrectly as sub-occ (NASO/ASO/MH) and give them the training they need.  NASOs don't need to know MVASP...ASOs don't need to know RADAR/ESM...and MH won't use the same RADAR/ESM or even use it the same, as LRP types.

We can't treat everything like an apple and peal it the way we peel apples.  We have applies, oranges and bananas to deal with and train.   :2c:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 16, 2017, 17:00:08
You're welcome!

Thanks, I'd like to repeat and double the last order please, and pay extra for rush delivery.   >:D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on June 16, 2017, 17:51:46
MH folks wants us to teach MVASP. That's why it on the QS. We teach all basic functions for PCT & MVASP, the gain will be that MOAT or OTU won't have to teach it anymore. They'll focus on the advance functions and tactics.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on June 16, 2017, 19:14:45
ETIS.  Nail on head.

Just imagine, our manning issues would almost cease.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: jfc on September 26, 2017, 10:21:21
Hi to all,
I need to find information on these 3 badges.
What does MOAT stands for?
What does HMVP stands for?
Where was the course given at?

Thanks

JF Chalifoux
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: mariomike on September 26, 2017, 10:24:27
What does MOAT stands for?

Maritime Operational Aircrew Training (MOAT)
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&q=site%3Aarmy.ca++%22Maritime+Operational+Aircrew+Training%22&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca++%22Maritime+Operational+Aircrew+Training%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...4879.7409.0.7963.2.2.0.0.0.0.115.210.1j1.2.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.4c3bNvval3I
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on September 26, 2017, 10:26:32
Hi to all,
I need to find information on these 3 badges.
What does MOAT stands for?
What does HMVP stands for?
Where was the course given at?

Thanks

JF Chalifoux

I'll guess that HMVP is Her Majesty's VP (Maritime Patrol Squadron), since those seem to be Observer course patches.  The current MOAT course is for the CP-140 Aurora and given in Greenwood NS, but it could have been in other places in the past.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 27, 2017, 17:12:39
MOAT was called OTU back in the late 60s when my dad went thru and it was in Greenwood then.  AES Ops were formally called Observers.  I’d have to do some digging to remember when Observers were renamed to AES Op but the number 081 is our old MOC number that is on one of the patches. 

My WAG for location though would be at the School in Greenwood.  I think ABATS came later than those patches in now closed CFB Summerside and then moved to Comox before ending up in Winnipeg again. 

Cool patches. We have a closed FB group I will post the patches in there and see if anyone can add some info. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on September 27, 2017, 21:28:28
MOAT was called OTU back in the late 60s when my dad went thru

So, to complete the "what is old is new again" cycle, MOAT will have to be renamed "Aurora OTU" to a) be true to history and heritage, and b) be the same (again) as all the other airframe type courses.   

Sounds like a Briefing Note to me!  :nod:
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 27, 2017, 22:07:47
Why not just call it MPANCMAOTC.   ;D
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: adventure-guide on October 21, 2017, 01:29:34
Long story short...

I am currently a 5s qualified ATIS Tech and looking at VOT-T to AESOp. I am in Shearwater right now and have heard from many guys in trade that they are looking for new people.
My dad was an AESOp for 25ish years and currently running the simulator for the cyclone. So we both hear a lot of info.
From what I can understand I can apply for the trade by Jan 2018 under the VOT-T level. So fingers crossed I guess.

I've read all the recent threads here and love the wealth of information. Thank you.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 21, 2017, 07:16:51
So you know what the trade's about then somewhat...some get into it that don't.

The main ref is CFAO 11-12, but you'll notice in the CANFORGEN they use language like "who are OFP"...the CFAO doesn't have this language in it.  You're QL5 so it won't matter;it just irks me when the CAF doesn't follow it's own policy.  Anyways...

In case you haven't seen it yet...

CANFORGEN 128/17 CMP 062/17 211447Z JUL 17
2018/2019 VOLUNTARY OCCUPATION TRANSFER (VOT) PROGRAM FOR NCM COMPETITION
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CFAO 11-12
B. MOSID ENTRY STANDARDS - HTTP://CMP-CPM.FORCES.MIL.CA/EN/SUPPORT/MILITARY-PERSONNEL/DPGR_OCCUPATIONS.PAGE
C. TERMS OF SERVICE - HTTP://CMP-CPM.MIL.CA/EN/RECRUITMENT-CAREERS/TERMS-OF-SERVICE/INDEX.PAGE
D. DAOD 5023-2
E. HTTP://WWW.FORCES.GC.CA/EN/ABOUT-POLICIES-STANDARDS-MEDICAL-OCCUPATIONS/OFFICER-NCM-MINIMUM-MEDICAL-STANDARDS.PAGE- CFP 154 ANNEX E - MINIM MEDICAL STANDARDS FOR NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS
F. FSG 100-01 AIRCREW MEDICAL SELECTION PARA 3A
G. HTTP://CMP-CPM.MIL.CA/EN/RECRUITMENT-CAREERS/IN-SERVICE-SELECTION/INDEX.PAGE
H. VOT APPLICATION FORM HTTP://CMP-CPM.MIL.CA/EN/RECRUITMENT-CAREERS/IN-SERVICE-SELECTION/INDEX.PAGE

1.   THE NCM VOT PROGRAM GOVERNS THE VOLUNTARY TRANSFER OF REG F NCMS FROM ONE MILITARY OCCUPATION TO ANOTHER. THE VOT PROGRAM INCLUDES THE ANNUAL VOLUNTARY OCCUPATION TRANSFER PROGRAM (AVOTP), CONTINUING OCCUPATION TRANSFER PROGRAM (COT AND LAND OCCUPATION TRANSFER PROGRAM (LOTP) IAW REF A. 
2.   THE 2018/2019 VOT PROGRAM FOR OFP QUALIFIED CANDIDATES IS OPENED TO ALL OF THE NCM OCCUPATIONS IN ACCORDANCE WITH REF A AND THE 2018/2019 CAF INTERNAL STRATEGI INTAKE PLAN (SIP) FOR REG F PERSONNEL 
3.   ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA FOR THE VOT PROGRAM IS IDENTIFIED AT REF A AND AMPLIFIED IN THE MOSID ENTRY STANDARDS AT REF B. 
A.   APPLICANTS MUST MEET THE CAF MINIMUM PHYSICAL FITNESS STANDARD (REF D) AND TH MOSID MEDICAL STANDARD SPECIFIED FOR THE TARGETED OCCUPATION AT THE TIME OF APPLICATION (REF E). IN CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE POTENTIAL APPLICANTS DO NOT MEET THE REQUIRED MEDICAL STANDARD BUT HAVE BEEN RETAINED WITHOUT RESTRICTION IN THEIR CURRENT OCCUPATION AS A RESULT OF AN AR/MEL PROCESS, OR THEIR MEDICAL CATEGORY STILL MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS OF THEIR CURRENT OCCUPATION, THEN A WAIVER MAY BE REQUESTED, IF JUSTIFIED, BASED ON THEIR MELS. WAIVER PROCESS IS AVAILABLE AT RE G 
B.   FOR APPLICANTS APPLYING FOR SF OP THE 48 MONTH CONTINUOUS SERVICE REQUIREMENT IS REDUCED TO 24 MONTHS FOR THIS COMPETITION. 
C.   FORMER RMS CLKS WISHING TO TRANSFER FROM HRA TO FSA/FSA TO HRA MAY SUBMIT AN APPLICATION THROUGH THEIR COC. SUCCESSFUL APPLICANTS MAY RETAIN CURRENT RANK BAS ON RESULTS OF A PLAR PROVIDED A VACANCY EXISTS AT THAT RANK IN THE GAINING OCCUPATION.
4.   COMPLETED VOT APPLICATIONS ARE TO BE RECEIVED ELECTRONICALLY AT (PLUS SIGN) (PLUS SIGN)DMCPG 5(AT SIGN)CMP DMCPG(AT SIGN)OTTAWA-HULL BY THE FOLLOWING DEADLINES IN ORDER TO BE CONSIDERED FOR THE 2018/2019 VOT COMPETITION: 
A.   APPLICATIONS WILL BE CONSIDERED ON A CONTINUING BASIS FOR 00021 FLT ENGR AND 00322 CRT RPTR 
B.   30 OCT 17 - FSA TO HRA/HRA TO FSA 
C.   10 NOV 17 - 00101 SAR TECH, 00161 MP AND 00342 CL DVR 
D.   15 DEC 17 - 00357 CBRN OP 
E.   12 FEB 18 - ALL OTHER OCCUPATIONS INCLUDING 00371 PMED, 00372 OR TECH, 00373 PHYS TECH AND 00369 SF OP IN ORDER TO ALLOW FOR APPLICATION PROCESSING REQUIREMENTS LOCAL PSO OFFICES WILL ESTABLISH EARLIER DEADLINES.
5.   AN APPLICATION WILL BE CONSIDERED COMPLETED IF IT ARRIVES AT DMCPG BY THE RESPECTIVE DEADLINE AND INCLUDES ALL THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS: 
A.   VOLUNTARY OCCUPATION TRANSFER APPLICATION FORM WITH PARTS 1-5 COMPLETED (REF H). PSO PROCESSING (INCLUDING PART 4) IS NOT REQUIRED FOR FSA TO HRA/HRA TO FSA 
B.   SELECTION ASSESSMENT REPORT (DND 2790) COMPLETED BY THE PSO 
C.   MEMBER S MILITARY RECORD RESUME (NOT EMAA VERSION) 
D.   SIGNED STATEMENT OF UNDERSTANDING
6.   SUCCESSFUL APPLICANTS WILL BE NOTIFIED NLT JUN 18. NO REQUEST FOR UPDATE ON ACTIVE FILES WILL BE ENTERTAINED BEFORE MID MAY 18 
7.   UNITS/APPLICANTS ARE TO CONTACT THEIR LOCAL PSO OFFICE FOR ALL POLICY AND SELECTION INQUIRIES

Good luck!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: adventure-guide on October 21, 2017, 08:01:56
Thanks for that!! I didn't realize it was to be sent electronically. I guess I'll fill out all my sections and get my flight medical signed off then it needs to be scanned before the CoC can start their part.
Also that new date in Feb is later then I found. Granted I plan on having everything done in the next month or so as long as the flight medical can go thought fast. I've done it before and expect no issues at all.

I have a very good understanding about the trade and have a few great resources for getting my questions answered, including this page now. Just glad I was told about the state of the trade so I can start looking into the VOT. Or else I wouldn't have known. Glad to hear they are looking for more VOTs now when I was first trying to get into the trade from being in the infantry they were mainly focused on DE. Granted I was only a untrained private then. Hoping to have better luck now. Espically with all the electronics theory and training I've had as an ATIS Tech.

Any idea what the turn around is for someone that successfully meets all the checks for a VOT? I see it says could find out by June 2018. But then could be months after that? Longer?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 23, 2017, 18:32:41
Thanks for that!! I didn't realize it was to be sent electronically. I guess I'll fill out all my sections and get my flight medical signed off then it needs to be scanned before the CoC can start their part.
Also that new date in Feb is later then I found. Granted I plan on having everything done in the next month or so as long as the flight medical can go thought fast. I've done it before and expect no issues at all.

I have a very good understanding about the trade and have a few great resources for getting my questions answered, including this page now. Just glad I was told about the state of the trade so I can start looking into the VOT. Or else I wouldn't have known. Glad to hear they are looking for more VOTs now when I was first trying to get into the trade from being in the infantry they were mainly focused on DE. Granted I was only a untrained private then. Hoping to have better luck now. Espically with all the electronics theory and training I've had as an ATIS Tech.

Any idea what the turn around is for someone that successfully meets all the checks for a VOT? I see it says could find out by June 2018. But then could be months after that? Longer?

The earlier date could be one set by the Halifax FPSO...

Usually, if you are selected you'll transfer over to the trade and go on the BTL somewhere around the generic APS date...mid July'ish.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: adventure-guide on October 24, 2017, 08:47:19
That's what I figured. Thanks.

I'm setting up my medical tomorrow.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 24, 2017, 21:01:07
Good luck!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hogdogz on November 09, 2017, 16:40:50
Just want to say thanks for the abundant information contained within this thread. My offer came through today so as of mid January I should be beginning my new career!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: adventure-guide on November 09, 2017, 17:30:04
Congratulations!! I finish my medical in a couple weeks then up the chain it goes. Hope to hear sometime in the new year. Are you a direct entry or a transfer from another trade?
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hogdogz on November 09, 2017, 18:00:58
Reserve Infantry Sargeant so I believe I follow the same entry stream as Direct Entry.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 12, 2017, 10:41:30
Welcome to the trade and congrats!!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: hogdogz on November 17, 2017, 17:13:04
Thanks, I'm looking forward to it! Going to be starting out on the West Coast doing some OJT. Hope I can get the pre-req courses done so I can get loaded onto the BAQC in the summer. Does anyone have any idea if there is a back-log of candidates for it? As it is now a 6 month course the wife and I have some life planning that revolves around it as I won't know my final posting until it's done.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 17, 2017, 17:20:10
EEV is the SME on Winnipeg 'stuff'.  The course is now 6 months, but before when it was the BAQC and IAQC it was about 6 months as well;  I was away from Jan to Jul with 1 week between mine when I went thru the sausage machine.  Posting locations were given to us in the final stages of it all, same as now I suspect.

Enjoy your BTL time and the initial courses!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on November 17, 2017, 17:49:42
Yes there is a big backlog on BTL, I've heard 41 so far. The course is 6 months long, pending on delays wrt the flying phase. Be patient and learn the world of the RCAF aircrew while on OJT.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 27, 2018, 11:45:42
Article Link (https://www.facebook.com/RCAF.ARC/posts/10155027102636237)

In January 2018, the first group of AES Ops will graduate from 402 Squadron with the newly installed Procedural Crew Trainer.

What does that mean for new airborne electronic sensor operations (AES Ops) and the Squadron?

- The Squadron, based at 17 Wing Winnipeg, will cover 97 per cent of the training
- Time spent at time at the operational training units at 12 Wing Shearwater and 14 Wing Greenwood will be reduced
- New airborne electronic sensor operators will be more proficient at their jobs.

This new equipment is capable of emulating and simulating sensors and systems such as communications, acoustics, electro-optics/infrared, imaging radar system, electronic support measures, and magnetic anomaly detection.

BZ to the upcoming AES Ops graduates!


---------------------------------------------------------------------

The PCT is a great addition to the initial training, and with MH world taking on the additional sensors the Cyclone has over the Sea King, makes sense to start exposing the kiddies to 'what we do and what we use' as early as possible.

I'm still not a 100% fan of the somewhat large amount of 'common to all' training;  I'd prefer to see the trade identify trainees for what platform they're going to initially, and what 'side' (dry/wet) if they are going LRP, and train them to that job.  I know, its easier said than done to make that happen, but that would get people to MOAT/OTU quicker and onto crews quicker, IMO.  Someone who ends up a NASO doesn't need to spend any time doing oceanography really IMO, likewise someone who goes wet doesn't need to spend trg time and dollars on RADAR/ESm/MAD.  Granted, I like anything that gets B cats on crew ASAP after living thru what I will call the 'lean years of late' where the line sqn was in the hurt locker and deployments were thought of as 'breaks from the chaos'.

If it were up to me, I'd probably close down the trg in Wpg, and download the initial occ training to 404 or 406 and then that would streamline the whole thing, and people could take the family with them on their posting.  Cost moves would be limited to the folks posted to the West Coast once they got their category.

However, based on reality, I think the PCT is upping the game from the TMTs we did when I went thru.  Always better to take steps ahead then steps back.  I'm sure the 402 guys are going to be busy now implementing the training after being busy getting everything in place. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on January 27, 2018, 13:04:56
Another key part of the training is we teach level 0 analysis. We added FMV/SAR in the syllabus and we are in the process of adding VBS III as well. We’re also looking at having courses of 18 students starting next year. Lots of changes happening here at 402!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 27, 2018, 14:21:37
Any idea how long the BAQC+ would be if all that was added?

2 x 18 student courses...that would be nice.  I know LRP can use some new blood and there was talk about MH requiring 20 some x Sgt's in the near future...MAISR...etc.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on January 27, 2018, 14:50:50
5 months or so. There’s a technique to this madness. We split the course into 3 groups, one doing PCT, the others doing MVASP or fly phase, simultaneously. Then we swap the groups until everyone has completed all the phases.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 27, 2018, 15:21:34
5 months or so. There’s a technique to this madness. We split the course into 3 groups, one doing PCT, the others doing MVASP or fly phase, simultaneously. Then we swap the groups until everyone has completed all the phases.

I know you guys are doing your best...I'm hoping there's a day in the future where, like I described above, guys and gals heading to a NASO world aren't wasting time on MVASP and ASOs aren't doing ESM/RADAR...

I know; never gonna happen!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on January 27, 2018, 16:19:28
You’re looking at this with an LRP eye. MH needs AES Ops qualified both Wet and dry. Our mandate is to provide that.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 27, 2018, 17:28:47
How about a common sense eye.

Blow up Winnipeg and move everything to ZX.    Or not fly them in Winnipeg at all.  Ensuring people are sent to the MOAT/OTU in a timely manner.

Everyone seems to be running in 3 different directions.

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 27, 2018, 20:43:33
I do focus on the LRP needs/wants;  we still need a while to get back to what I'd consider healthy (line crews 100% properly manned, Stds and Trg doing only that, with the right number of B cats staggered in their OJTP that the crews have the Leads and A Cats they need to fly and replacements always a Quarterly or two away from upgrading).  But...overall I have this opinion...which takes into consideration both communities.

I'm still not a 100% fan of the somewhat large amount of 'common to all' training;  I'd prefer to see the trade identify trainees for what platform they're going to initially, and what 'side' (dry/wet) if they are going LRP, and train them to that job...
 
If it were up to me, I'd probably close down the trg in Wpg, and download the initial occ training to 404 or 406 and then that would streamline the whole thing, and people could take the family with them on their posting.  Cost moves would be limited to the folks posted to the West Coast once they got their category.

This to me would the ideal way to move to. 

But...then there is the key word the follows in yellow...

Quote
However, based on reality, I think the PCT is upping the game from the TMTs we did when I went thru.  Always better to take steps ahead then steps back.  I'm sure the 402 guys are going to be busy now implementing the training after being busy getting everything in place.

402 is doing the job now as it is structured and likely to stay structured, but I think the entire shop in Wpg could close up for the AES Op trg, free all that up to pump out ACSOs, and move the fin code, instr's, QS and TPs to CO 404 and 406.  Flying would be done on the PCT/OMS/MH equiv (not sure what the Box is called down that way now) and then the Cyclone or '140. 

Key would be to select the trainees for their 'stream' and then put them into the sausage machine.  After 1 year or so...out pops a B Cat/Cat 2 operator. 

But, yah I think you guys are handling your mandate well and more of the QS is being accomplished now. 

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 28, 2018, 08:42:34
Still though, they are flying in Winnipeg and operating different sensors than the PCT. 

There are plans to add EO, but I feel the money spent on that could be better spent elsewhere.  EO is an extremely simple sensor and doesn’t require much training.  I know the dry team loves their trivia and they then to over complicate everything.   EO = moving a camera with a stick..    I highly doubt the RCMP pounds their guys with a plethora of ridiculous questions when training on EO.

The LRP fleet is hurting for folks and I feel the mandate to keep 402 manned is part of the problem.  404 has TWO ASO instructors!  We are supposed to have 7.  One MOAT requires 2 instructors, but we also fly staff missions and support international taskings.  Professional development?  What the frig is that?   We are years from this being fixed, I’d say 5 years at the least.

Right now the AES Op trade (LRP) is relying heavily on those who can.  As for those who can’t?  Don’t worry you’ll land yourself a nice high profile non-flying job, where you’ll get to sit on the sidelines and watch people burn themselves out.

I don’t know how anyone can look at the situation and not start sweating.  Either people are dumb as frig or someone is masking the issue. 

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 28, 2018, 13:40:53
Still though, they are flying in Winnipeg and operating different sensors than the PCT.

I know and it doesn't make sense to me, but...that's not my circus and I'm not the ringleader.   ;D

Quote
There are plans to add EO, but I feel the money spent on that could be better spent elsewhere.  EO is an extremely simple sensor and doesn’t require much training.  I know the dry team loves their trivia and they then to over complicate everything.   EO = moving a camera with a stick..

I don't ask random Q & A, I do focus on the 'what does this switch do' and 'anything that indicates knowledge of how to use/optimize'.  If someone asked me 'what is the FOV on EON at 1900...I would say "don't know, who cares".  I have important stuff I need to remember.  "when is XLP better than NIR"...valid question IMO.  Most people go to AUTO when we're running in for the stern from XX miles away and then get all f&&ked up fighting it up close when they go abeam at 3 miles...when they don't know why, I know they don't really understand how the sensor works. 

EO is simple, really, if the op can do the following: 

- determine best primary, dial that sucker in  ( I see people picking the incorrect primary a lot)

- 'stack' and focus the (in our case) 3 cameras properly  (again a struggle for lots of people, if they even think of it)

and this is the part new NASOs and (IMO) most ASOs suck at:

- keep the target in the FOV, switch the primary at the right time AND at the same time...talk effectively about what you're seeing on the pri and 2 secondary cameras, while continuously dialing it in.  (the new NASO Bs and even some of the ASO B who did IMPACT...still struggle with this part).

So, what we (or me, at least) find is the ASOs that come over are weak 3s on EO (and Ord).  And it is hard to get them the consistency doing either for them to really be at that "min supervision" level. 

EO is a simple sensor, but a lot of people aren't that great on it and it is Pri sensor more than people realize I think.  You'd be surprised how many line type ASO Bs can't work EO unsupervised on a Group 3 during a photo rig/ID when they're sitting beside me...and new NASOs too.  Anyone can do *a la* IMPACT (well...ok most people could...) but the down low stuff, not so much IMO.  A recent COREX with a Ph2 ASO proved all of what I'm saying.

I have an EO/IR SOP I make the folks who are with me for any length of time use, and once they start sticking to that, all of the issues above go away and the sensor is used effectively.  But, IMO, I would rather have ASOs that are good at the wet stuff;  I think PL3 is good enough for all things EO and Ord for wetties.   :2c: 

Quote
The LRP fleet is hurting for folks and I feel the mandate to keep 402 manned is part of the problem.  404 has TWO ASO instructors!  We are supposed to have 7.  One MOAT requires 2 instructors, but we also fly staff missions and support international taskings.  Professional development?  What the frig is that?   We are years from this being fixed, I’d say 5 years at the least.

And that is why I think the initial occ trg should move to 404 and 406...frig this 'common to all, everyone does ESM and MVASP' stuff.  I did oceanography on my 3s.  Ask me an oceanography question now.  Point - unless they are going dry, there's no value to knowing RADAR theory or what emitters are on a Udaloy.  Going MH?  No requirement for MAD, but requirement for oceanography.  I don't believe a 'common to all' 3s course is the way to go covering all this stuff.  No offense to EEV and the 402 folks, but I think their course should be cut and a QS for BAQC LRP and BAQC MH be written.  We are wasting time and money on stuff that could be done better.  Gonzo flying;  leave the tails and YFR for the ACSOs.

Quote
Right now the AES Op trade (LRP) is relying heavily on those who can.  As for those who can’t?  Don’t worry you’ll land yourself a nice high profile non-flying job, where you’ll get to sit on the sidelines and watch people burn themselves out.

I don’t know how anyone can look at the situation and not start sweating.  Either people are dumb as frig or someone is masking the issue.

Yup there are days a T Cat sure sound great!   ;D   I'm home on a Sunday...not enjoying my Sunday afternoon, I'm playing catch-up on Obs Reports, Quarterlies from the second half of 2017 and finishing off the admin on a OTJP Ph4 type before the "feb trip" goes because it is his check.  Funny, because I said over Xmas Leave I wasn't 'working outside work hours this year'.   :orly: MH - I think you'll see the same thing with the west coast guys, guess on my part but they're the ones holding the pants up on their own now AFIAK while the east coast gets spun up on all things 148.  My little bubble has gotten better the past few months, but APS will take some of that away. 

IF the BAQC is going to more students, they will again want more guys from the line sqns.  And around the ****** circle we go again.

Solution?  Shut down BAQC, more the positions/courses to 404 and 406.  Chop up the current QS and TP into 2 courses - BAQC (LRP) and BAQC (MH).  Move the PCT and MVASP stuff from Wpg to Shearwater.  Voila.

This will take the SOA and Trade Advisor to sell to 2 CAD and the Comdr, but first there has to be an acceptance that it would be a better, more effective and cost-efficient way to produce B Cat/Cat 2 operators and use 404 and 406 to their max potential.




Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 29, 2018, 08:27:21
I realize there is a little more to it than moving the camera with a stick.  However, I do find that many NASOs like to wander into the weeds.

When I hear of ASOs being weak on EO I place the blame on the leads and Sqns (ASO B cats also need to be proactive, a Pte may be intimidated, but a MCpl/Sgt shouldn’t be).   I find that most ASO leads are uncomfortable with EO and Ord duties to begin with, so naturally they will focus their training on MVASP.

There are two courses of action that I feel needs to take place. 

1.    The ASOs will most likely find themselves sitting a QSWB in the spring.  I am going to recommend we turf Ord and I also feel that EO should go as well*.

Or;

2.    Sqns be proactive and change their way of thinking.  I personally feel that ESM should be sitting at the ASO rail for all missions, except ASW.   This would make sense as we have 5 sensor operators on the aircraft and under our current thought process we have one operator responsible for both EO and ESM.   By my count that leaves 3 sensor operators sitting around licking windows (again except for ASW missions).

*My reason for wanting to offload EO is because it always feels like a fight, we have to fight for EO time.   I also feel that our ASW skillset is also slipping and we need to bring that back up to where it should be.

Another issue we have is that ASO usually ends up with TCDL/BLOS duties (when required), it’s never grab a dry guy and get him to setup TCDL.   TCDL isn’t in our QS and we aren’t trained on the kit, it just fell on our lap because it’s a shitty task and no one else wanted it.   So again we find ourselves taken away from other stuff (like EO work).   

The issue of being weaker in Ord, naturally this makes sense as Ord is usually only busy during ASW missions, during which the ASO should be sitting at MVASP.

I get the manning and the flexibility argument and I am all for being flexible, which is why I am going to recommend that NASOs be trained in basic MVASP functions (which the new grads already are!) so we can utilize them in the wet seat too.   

So to recap I want EO and Ord dropped or MVASP picked up by the dry team (for the added flexibility).
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: adventure-guide on March 06, 2018, 09:29:27
Good Day, Been a few months since I posted here...

My OT was sent through and I got confirmation it was received. I was told that the board for VOT-T AESOP was last week and that decisions would be sent out by the end of March. Now according to the CANFORGEN on OTs this year it says notifications wont be sent out until May/June.
Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this for me. Should I be expecting an actual decision on my OT by the end of March? Hate the feeling of waiting for something that wouldn't come for a extra few months then I thought.  :waiting:

Thanks!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 08, 2018, 23:21:31

My OT was sent through and I got confirmation it was received. I was told that the board for VOT-T AESOP was last week and that decisions would be sent out by the end of March.

Can I ask where you heard that?  Was it from the PSO shop staff?

Quote
Now according to the CANFORGEN on OTs this year it says notifications wont be sent out until May/June.
 

This is a credible source of information...seems like a good starting point to expect to find out.

Quote
Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this for me. Should I be expecting an actual decision on my OT by the end of March? Hate the feeling of waiting for something that wouldn't come for a extra few months then I thought.  :waiting:

Thanks!

Aside from a few people who might be close to the SOA (Senior Occupation Advisor...the BTL Manager, an AES OP CWO), guys like me who live and breath at the line sqn level don't have much eyes on stuff like this.

If you got that info ref March in the first quote above from the PSO shop, I'd call them or drop by and ask them if the CANFORGEN info is accurate or if the March date one is more accurate for the AES Op MOSID.

I've only talked to one OT who got in thru last years competition and I believe that pers got their offer in early June.

Good luck!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: adventure-guide on March 09, 2018, 08:25:32
When I contacted DGMC about getting confirmation they received my application the Occupation Transfer Admin Clerk, Director General Military Careers (DGMC) sent me an email back saying:

"The board will be sitting next week and offers will be issued at the end of March."

I thought that would be pretty accurate since it came from the DGMC but it was much different then the CANFORGEN that said:

"SUCCESSFUL APPLICANTS WILL BE NOTIFIED NLT JUN 18. NO REQUEST FOR UPDATE ON ACTIVE FILES WILL BE ENTERTAINED BEFORE MID MAY 18"

So that's why I was wondering.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 09, 2018, 19:41:06
NLT June 218 is after End March 2018... seems like you have a pretty accurate window to get your offer message.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 10, 2018, 13:02:14
When I contacted DGMC about getting confirmation they received my application the Occupation Transfer Admin Clerk, Director General Military Careers (DGMC) sent me an email back saying:

"The board will be sitting next week and offers will be issued at the end of March."

I thought that would be pretty accurate since it came from the DGMC but it was much different then the CANFORGEN that said:

"SUCCESSFUL APPLICANTS WILL BE NOTIFIED NLT JUN 18. NO REQUEST FOR UPDATE ON ACTIVE FILES WILL BE ENTERTAINED BEFORE MID MAY 18"

So that's why I was wondering.

Well, then it sounds like the AES Op ones will be starting at end March.  I received my offer in March back when I OTd...maybe the trade gets their's a little earlier because people may still have to finalize their aircrew medical or some other reason.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: adventure-guide on March 12, 2018, 14:09:01
Well, then it sounds like the AES Op ones will be starting at end March.  I received my offer in March back when I OTd...maybe the trade gets their's a little earlier because people may still have to finalize their aircrew medical or some other reason.


Fingers crossed. I hate waiting around to hear back. But it would be worth it if I had to.

Thanks!
Title: AESOp Typical Rank Progression
Post by: jdog on March 13, 2018, 09:14:25
Good Morning,

Please forgive my ignorance, but I would like to know what a "typical" rank progression would look like for an AESOp. Understandably, every situation and person is different, but even a ballpark idea would be helpful. When asking around recruiting I hear the usual "You can go as far as your will can take you" but we all know reality is a little different.

What levels of ranks could a person reasonably look at achieving over their career timeline?

Thank you very much for any help and information.
Title: Re: AESOp Typical Rank Progression
Post by: Eagle Eye View on March 13, 2018, 09:52:13
Realistically, I've seen AES Ops achieve the rank of Sgt at 8 years of service. Some achieved WO after 11 years ish.
Title: Re: AESOp Typical Rank Progression
Post by: jdog on March 13, 2018, 12:00:22
Thank you good sir!

Looking at the pay and rank scale for 2017, I notice there is a significant jump between the private pay increments 1-2-3. Once you get above that, the increments for Corporal become rather small in comparison. This may be the wrong place for my next question, but what would be a rough expected progression for the 3 pay increments at the Private level? (And perhaps the better question, how does a Private fit into the AESOp position? By the end of all the training etc, where would you emerge on that scale? I'm assuming at level 1.)

Thank you again for the information.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: dapaterson on March 13, 2018, 12:19:38
Pay increments are annual, barring colossal feats of stupidity.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eagle Eye View on March 13, 2018, 13:06:04
Pay increments are every year. By the time you’ve completed all your training and show up at the Sqn, you’ll most likely be an Aviator lvl 3. If you put lots of effort and work hard, you could also be advance promoted to Cpl.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: jdog on March 13, 2018, 14:15:28
Thank you very much for the info gentlemen! That answers everything I was looking for. Much appreciated!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 13, 2018, 18:34:32
Just to add, Cpl is a rank you will get after 48 months of service.  Cpl and QL5 qualified means you get spec pay (Specialist Pay Category 1), if you are flying you get AIRCREW allowance and, if you ended up Maritime helicopter, you'd also be in a PLD Area and if you were on a HelAirDet you'd also get sea duty allowance.  For a Cpl, it is very good pay and benefits.

After Cpl, promotion is competitive;  some people who went thru their training together are progressing fairly differently;  some are Sgt, some are MCpls and some after still Cpl's after a handful of years on Sqn.

If you work hard, fit in well with a crew, don't duck the away trips and standby weekends, etc you'll progress fairly well.  If you don't display much loyalty to the job and your peers...you might find yourself behind the pack.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: jdog on March 14, 2018, 10:44:58
Thank you again for the info!

From what I am told, there are two basic "positions" you can have as an AESOp. You could either be aboard a CP-140 Aurora, or a Seaking. Both positions, while being similar, are vastly different as well. Personally I'm a rotorhead fan, as I've flown both small fixed and rotary aircraft... But I love long haul style work.
I'm totally comfortable hopping into a CP-140 in Quebec today, and being anywhere else in the world for a couple months for work.
Drop everything and go patrol the arctic for a week or two? No problem!

Another curious question that recruiting wasn't able to answer, are there any other positions that AESOps can do? (Again, I primarily see the CP-140 and the Seaking and that's about it).
For stationing, I was told it's either Comox BC, or Greenwood NS. Anyone know of anything in St.Jean for AESOp by some rare chance? (In my back yard).

Thanks again everyone!

Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: adventure-guide on March 14, 2018, 11:13:31
From everything I have been told and found out you mainly work on either the Cyclone (replacing the seaking) or Aurora and now there seems to be a big push for UAV as well. Most postings are in BC and Greenwood or Shearwater NS. Training is mainly done in Winnipeg but probably wont be sent there unless you're instructing.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: jdog on March 14, 2018, 11:22:00
I was going to inquire about UAV ops! I asked once about UAV and I had been given the feeling that was a very bad question to ask. (Needless to say I didn't get an answer).

For me, that would be the grand-daddy of all positions that I would love.
It may sound ridiculous, but I'm assuming Canada has a fleet of UAVs? I can find pictures and articles about it on Google. But nothing through recruiting or "official" channels. To run sensors/electronics on Canadian UAV missions, is that the AESOp position or another similar one? (Perhaps I need to start adding to my position choices as I only singularly put AESOp on my list).

Sorry to suddenly drive the topic on a tangent. But this got my attention.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Dimsum on March 14, 2018, 11:36:39
may sound ridiculous, but I'm assuming Canada has a fleet of UAVs? I can find pictures and articles about it on Google. But nothing through recruiting or "official" channels. To run sensors/electronics on Canadian UAV missions, is that the AESOp position or another similar one? (Perhaps I need to start adding to my position choices as I only singularly put AESOp on my list).

The Canadian Army has some small UAVs, but they're operated by the artillery branch.  Canada used to lease Heron UAVs (Predator-sized) for Afghanistan and were flown by Pilots or ACSOs, with AESOp as the sensor operator. 
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: adventure-guide on March 14, 2018, 11:58:53
The Canadian Army has some small UAVs, but they're operated by the artillery branch.  Canada used to lease Heron UAVs (Predator-sized) for Afghanistan and were flown by Pilots or ACSOs, with AESOp as the sensor operator.

I hear the Navy is now testing some UAVs now too!
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 15, 2018, 19:52:45
This is all applic to entry level folks just entering the trade as it is what you'd be looking at. 

LRP (Aurora):  based in Comox BC or Greenwood NS.  Comox has 407 Sqn, Greenwood has 405 Sqn.  Additional in Greenwood are 404 LRP & T (Training) Sqn and 415 LRPFD Sqn (Force Development).  404 and 415 are things you'd potentially move on to after you do your first tour at 407/405.  As an LRP AES Op you could be a 'wet' sensor operation or "dry".  I think I explained the differences earlier in the thread in detail.

MH (SeaKing/Cyclone).  Pat Bay BC and Shearwater, the operational Sqns are 443 and 423.  Shearwater also has HOTEF (Helicopter Operational Test and Evaluation Facility and 406 (OTU) Sqn. 

You can look up any of those on the Internet for open source info.

UAVs - the RCAF isn't yet operating a fleet of UAVs, might in the future..."might".  We do have 2 x OUTCAN (outside Canada) posting for AES Ops on UAVs;  one with NATO and one with the USAF.

We have one OUTCAN position in Poland (Warrant Officer rank).

AES Ops also fill positions in Wing Operations, usually as ESS (Electronic Sensor Support) preparing the kit we use for crews and doing PMA (post mission analysis).  As of now AES Ops won't be operating the sensors on the new Fixed Wing SAR platform but I think that will change;  the people who are slated to do it now don't have the corporate knowledge we do and we could end up on the FWSAR.  I can teach anyone to push buttons and look at the screen, but they'll never have the experience we do and its almost impossible to duplicate that in a short amount of time.  Who knows, we might end up on SAR.  There may also be opportunities to fly in support of CANSOF;  but I see that as a 2nd tour opportunity;  MH and LRP would give you a good foundation to do something like that and it would be a more specific 'person-job' fit IMO. 

We do have a few positions at CFLRS as instructors as well. 

On top of that there are various 2nd, 3rd tour and beyond positions as you progress.  We have people in positions in other RCAF training establishments like CF School of Survival and Aeromedical Training, CF School of Aerospace Studies, CF Electronic Warfare Center.  So yes there are positions outside of Canada and outside of the 1st tour LRP and MH flying positions.

Initial training is in Winnipeg but the operational training is done in Greenwood or Shearwater.

Initially, though, plan for 4-6 years on an operational sqn getting trained, upgrading, training your replacements and then moving on to the various 2nd tour positions.

Some links on open source stuff....

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/2-cdn-air-div/402-squadron.page

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/14-wing/404-squadron.page

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/14-wing/405-squadron.page

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/14-wing/415-squadron.page

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/12-wing/406-squadron.page

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/12-wing/423-squadron.page

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/12-wing/443-squadron.page

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/12-wing/helicopter-operational-test-evaluation-facility.page

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-establishments/cf-school-survival-aeromedical.page

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-establishments/cf-school-aerospace-studies.page
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: adventure-guide on March 16, 2018, 13:35:02
Just wanted to post that I received my OT to AESOp today!! Very happy to hear I got it. 16 July is my start date.
Title: Re: AESOp ( MOC 081)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 17, 2018, 12:15:56
Congrats!  Enjoy the time, as frustrating as it may be, while you wait to start your courses in Winnipeg because once you start...its a pretty constant "go!" for the next several years...or longer.  I have to think really hard to find a month I haven't been away the past few years that I wasn't on Annual, pre or post deployment leave.

Enjoy the wait for training!