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Offline GAP

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Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« on: May 01, 2013, 13:57:52 »
Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
Potential cuts to the program could mean cadets' glider days are numbered
CBC News Posted: Apr 29, 2013
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/04/29/ns-air-cadet-glider-program.html

Potential cuts to the Air Cadet Gliding Program could mean the days of soaring cadets are coming to an end.

In Department of National Defence emails obtained by the CBC, the department proposes cuts to the Air Cadet Gliding Program, saying the “ACGP has become the primary target for cost reductions within the cadet program."

The email says the decision to close the glider program "will come as a complete surprise."

"This is indeed a dark day for the Air Cadet Program," it says. For many young cadets, the gliding program gave them their first taste of flight.

The memos make it clear that the decision to cut the glider program is only being considered at this time, but that the program is viewed as unaffordable by leadership in the Canadian Forces.

The program could be cancelled across the country as early as next year.
more on link
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Offline exgunnertdo

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2013, 14:21:31 »
 :(  My 12 year old has just started Air Cadets, and hasn't even been up in a glider yet.  He can't wait to get into ground school...I sure hope they don't cut it.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2013, 14:25:44 »
:(  My 12 year old has just started Air Cadets, and hasn't even been up in a glider yet.  He can't wait to get into ground school...I sure hope they don't cut it.

Then what should the CF cut instead?  Or are you willing to pay a higher rate of tax (income tax or sales tax) to support it?
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Offline Jammer

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2013, 14:28:13 »
Glider program will not be cut.
What could possibly go wrong?

Offline Occam

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2013, 14:36:42 »
Cancelling the ACGP would be a damn shame.  Col Chris Hadfield got his early taste for flight courtesy of the gliding program...and it's easy to see where that went.

Offline Chernoble

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2013, 14:48:19 »
Then what should the CF cut instead?  Or are you willing to pay a higher rate of tax (income tax or sales tax) to support it?

For this program and many other cadet type programs, I would pay more tax.  Or just divert my part of the tax that goes to Welfare and EI abuse.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2013, 18:23:45 »
Glider program will not be cut.

Like Jammer noted, ACGP will still be supported.

Statement by the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence: NR – 13.130 - May 1, 2013

Quote
OTTAWA - The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, issued the following statement concerning the Cadet Program:

“Cadet organizations across Canada play an important role in promoting good citizenship, leadership, community service and physical fitness among young Canadians.  I believe in the merits of this program and the benefits it provides to Canadian communities are unparalleled.  In fact, the Cadet Program is the best youth development program in Canada. As I informed the House of Commons, "I can assure the House that the Cadet Program will continue to enjoy the important use of gliders."  There are to be no reductions in resources allocated to the Cadet glider program or any Cadet Program. The Cadet Program is here to stay.”


Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2013, 18:37:39 »
Then what should the CF cut instead?  Or are you willing to pay a higher rate of tax (income tax or sales tax) to support it?

How about the Snowbirds or Skyhawks,....or numerous staff that seem to inhabit areas around Ottawa.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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I note the sarcasm, but be careful what you wish for:

CBC.ca

I do believe MND stepped in and stopped it cold.
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Offline Jed

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2013, 19:16:24 »
For this program and many other cadet type programs, I would pay more tax.  Or just divert my part of the tax that goes to Welfare and EI abuse.

Exactly, cutting these programs that provide support to the youth and the future leadership of the country should be well below the priority of money wasted on EI abuse and such.
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Offline dcs

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2013, 19:28:03 »
They have lots of other things  that they should look at for potential cost reduction.   I believe that salaries of staff align quite closely if not entirely with reg force.   Having been involved with the Air Cadets, it always bothered me that an individual who had limited training and  was given the rank that reg force takes years to achieve with the same or similar hourly/daily pay rate. 

Cadets leave and at least in the one I was involved, little or no effort is taken to recover uniforms/boots etc.   CO was then successful in going and getting additional funds... rewarded for not for not doing his job.  Sons in reg force inform me that they have to turn back all uniforms and all are tracked.   Cadets at least from my experience ofter do not.   

Oldest son did glider and power and now pilot with the forces.  A great organization, that would benefit from a review and a review of individual squadrons and COs.   His first CO was outstanding and he still stays in touch with her and is proud to salute her.  The later one, not the same to say the least.

Offline kratz

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Great news if the MND did step in.
I had not heard of that. Thank you.
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Offline CRMA

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2013, 19:31:31 »
Last time I was in cadets, CIC officers received 80% of the pay of Regular Force, the same as any reserve component, and get paid  I believe a maximum of 28 days in the year... The rest of that is completely volunteer time, including all the additional gas they incur to travel, and any extra time off they have to take from work.

Just like the regular force, their are **** birds in the CIC. But the majority of them are hard working underpaid volunteers, who specialize in training and supervising kids. Its a worthy investment.

Offline GnyHwy

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2013, 20:01:04 »
Removing the end state of a program negates everything that leads up to it.

 

Offline Ditch

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2013, 20:09:40 »
and get paid  I believe a maximum of 28 days in the year...
That is only related to what work they did at their home squadron.  COATs personnel get offered B Class contracts for the summer to conduct cadet training.  There is no limit on how many days when it comes to full time summer work - I believe that this is what may be on the chopping block.  The cadets will continue to glide - just might not have as many CIC staff employed to do it.
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Offline PAdm

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2013, 20:17:11 »
When faced with budget cuts, the RCAF is no longer allowed to threaten to shut down the Snowbirds as a cost saving measure (knowing the Gov would never permit it). Maybe the glider program is the new hollow threat...   ;)

While the glider program is as much of a target as anything, I always scratch my head when we even think of cutting programs for youth.
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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2013, 20:20:12 »
Exactly, cutting these programs that provide support to the youth and the future leadership of the country should be well below the priority of money wasted on EI abuse and such.

Well said. Cadets, run properly, should be seen as an investment in our future.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2013, 20:21:13 »
When faced with budget cuts, the RCAF is no longer allowed to threaten to shut down the Snowbirds as a cost saving measure (knowing the Gov would never permit it). Maybe the glider program is the new hollow threat...   ;)

While the glider program is as much of a target as anything, I always scratch my head when we even think of cutting programs for youth.

How much does the glider program really cost the CF?
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Offline CRMA

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2013, 20:45:34 »
I am pretty sure the gliders and Tow planes are owned and maintained by the Air Cadet League of Canada.

 The cost is probably for the staffing of the Glider program during the regular year, as well as the cost of the Summer program which would include R&Q, plus stipend for the cadets, as well as R&Q plus pay for the Staff Cadets and Officers.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2013, 20:50:33 »
I am pretty sure the gliders and Tow planes are owned and maintained by the Air Cadet League of Canada.

 The cost is probably for the staffing of the Glider program during the regular year, as well as the cost of the Summer program which would include R&Q, plus stipend for the cadets, as well as R&Q plus pay for the Staff Cadets and Officers.

So, if I read this correctly, what the CF spends on the good program is peanuts in terms of overall spending.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2013, 21:46:33 »
What the CF spends on just about everything is peanuts.

The problem is that all the peanuts add up.

So anything that's cut is "peanuts".


Want to save money?  Consolidate bases.  Oh, sorry, not allowed to hurt the economy of those locations.  Shut down non-core functions. Not allowed to do that either.  So we end up eroding a bit of everything to protect high profile, limited use functions - or some flavours of the day.
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Offline Alex10370

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2013, 22:38:48 »
To clarify, the gliders themselves are owned by the air cadet league of Canada and the insurance for them is also through the air cadet league.  The military provides maintenance personelle and CIC officers to staff the various gliding institutions. 

If you ask me the air cadet program would lose a HUGE number of cadets should they cut this program and I definatley think there is much more than can be looked at in so far as cost cutting is concerned in the cadet program. 

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2013, 22:51:20 »
What the CF spends on just about everything is peanuts.

The problem is that all the peanuts add up.

So anything that's cut is "peanuts".


Want to save money?  Consolidate bases.  Oh, sorry, not allowed to hurt the economy of those locations.  Shut down non-core functions. Not allowed to do that either.  So we end up eroding a bit of everything to protect high profile, limited use functions - or some flavours of the day.

Preaching to the converted.
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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2013, 23:05:09 »
If I can't get ammo to do IBTS training, why do cadets get gliders? Yep, cadet is great for the youth, and the training is still valuable even without a glider program. Army and Navy cadets are doing just fine without one.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2013, 23:06:42 »
Removing the end state of a program negates everything that leads up to it.

 

There's your answer. Take away gliders, Air Cadets will dwindle.
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Offline ARMY_101

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Great news if the MND did step in.
I had not heard of that. Thank you.



Quote
Defence Minister Peter MacKay gave his assurance that the air cadet program was not being cut.

He then stated the glider program won’t be cut while at the same time as saying that programs are being reviewed.  “I can assure the House that the cadet program will continue to enjoy this important use of gliders,” MacKay said. “In fact, we continue to review and assess the effectiveness of programs, but there is no decision with respect to the cadet glider program.”
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 23:40:34 by Bruce Monkhouse »

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2013, 23:37:20 »
More money is wasted (i.e. not spent, thus returned to the Government) than everyone's ammo and training and gliding budget added up, then multiplied by a few times.  One cannot juxtapose Cadet Gliding against their own reduced ammo budget.  If you're not getting as much ammo as you used to, it's because the Land Staff and Areas and Formations decided that's what you get, IBTS included.  It's not because some band of Air Cadets is trying to screw you into an unoperational status... 

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Offline CRMA

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2013, 06:10:21 »
If you havent been in cadets, it would be hard to quantify the need for the program or the gliders. But gliding is probably the largest recreuting tool, and the largest identifying factor for Air Cadets. Id argue its why Air Cadets was the largest of all the cadet organizations when I was in. Just think of the confidence boost a 16 year old will get having there gliders licence, with the opportunity to get their power wings.

So, to an outsider it may be easy to see where you can make cuts to this youth program. But would the short term gain, be worth the long term one?

The leadership and instructional techniques I learned in cadets was above par to anything I have received in the Regular Force. And was hands above my PLQ. By a lot. Which is sad. But the leadership and instructional training I have received has not only helped me, but has been very helpful to deal with my subordinates in many ways.

To summarize: Make cuts in the cadet program (any of them), and you make cuts in the future of Canada, IMO anyways.

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2013, 06:48:56 »
If you havent been in cadets, it would be hard to quantify the need for the program or the gliders. But gliding is probably the largest recreuting tool, and the largest identifying factor for Air Cadets. Id argue its why Air Cadets was the largest of all the cadet organizations when I was in. Just think of the confidence boost a 16 year old will get having there gliders licence, with the opportunity to get their power wings.

So, to an outsider it may be easy to see where you can make cuts to this youth program. But would the short term gain, be worth the long term one?

The leadership and instructional techniques I learned in cadets was above par to anything I have received in the Regular Force. And was hands above my PLQ. By a lot. Which is sad. But the leadership and instructional training I have received has not only helped me, but has been very helpful to deal with my subordinates in many ways.

To summarize: Make cuts in the cadet program (any of them), and you make cuts in the future of Canada, IMO anyways.

QFT.  I was in what some would call an "inner-city" Toronto Cadet squadron, and I'll add that the confidence boost from that organization for some kids who had issues at home/school helped more than one of them successfully go into higher education (and join the CAF.)  Even the opportunity to go to camp and meet people from around the area (or country, at the national-level camps) is enough for some of those kids to realize that there's a big world out there.
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Offline ARMY_101

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2013, 09:27:14 »
If you havent been in cadets, it would be hard to quantify the need for the program or the gliders. But gliding is probably the largest recreuting tool, and the largest identifying factor for Air Cadets. Id argue its why Air Cadets was the largest of all the cadet organizations when I was in. Just think of the confidence boost a 16 year old will get having there gliders licence, with the opportunity to get their power wings.

So, to an outsider it may be easy to see where you can make cuts to this youth program. But would the short term gain, be worth the long term one?

The leadership and instructional techniques I learned in cadets was above par to anything I have received in the Regular Force. And was hands above my PLQ. By a lot. Which is sad. But the leadership and instructional training I have received has not only helped me, but has been very helpful to deal with my subordinates in many ways.

To summarize: Make cuts in the cadet program (any of them), and you make cuts in the future of Canada, IMO anyways.

I agree with your premises but not the conclusion.  Cadets should be a recruiting tool for the CAF: they should be "junior" soldiers, airmen, and sailors, doing age-appropriate military-like things until they can join the CAF.  Thus, any cuts in the cadet program should be seen as a cut in a valuable recruiting tool, rather than a cut to the "future youth of Canada." The youth can do whatever they want; it's the recruiting tool we should be concerned about.

Regardless, the minister has already said the program won't be cut.

Offline ARMY_101

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2013, 09:44:04 »
And, through his social media:

Quote from: Peter MacKay
Cadets organizations across Canada play an important role in promoting good citizenship, leadership, community service and physical fitness among young Canadians. I believe in the merits of this program and the benefits it provides to Canadian communities are unparalled. In fact, the Cadet program is the best youth development program in Canada. It is regrettable that some oppostion members attempt to misinform canadians scare our fine young cadets, and their parents. As I informed the House of Commons, "I can assure the House that the cadet program will continue to enjoy the important use of gliders." There are to be no reductions in resources allocated to the Cadet glider program or any Cadet program. The Cadet program is here to stay.

Offline jpjohnsn

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2013, 10:15:10 »
I agree with your premises but not the conclusion.  Cadets should be a recruiting tool for the CAF: they should be "junior" soldiers, airmen, and sailors, doing age-appropriate military-like things until they can join the CAF.  Thus, any cuts in the cadet program should be seen as a cut in a valuable recruiting tool, rather than a cut to the "future youth of Canada." The youth can do whatever they want; it's the recruiting tool we should be concerned about.
The cadet program is not a direct recruiting tool and has not been one for many decades.  If you were to evaluate it as one, it would be recognized as a collosal failure based on the actual number of cadets who go on to join the military.

While stimulating interest in the activities of the CF does help many youth choose a career in the military, for the vast majority who don't, it releases into the wild a group of adults with a positive view of the CF that's a little more substantial than a "support the troops" magnet on the back of their car.    And not only them but their families too.   I once volunteered at an air cadet squadron in the GTA where almost 90% of the cadets were immigrants or first generation Canadian and it was seen by their parents as a way to help them "become Canadian".   For a few, there was quite a bit of resistance from their family in joining as, in the "old country", the military was a thing to be feared and not aspired to.  For these kids to go through the program and proving to their friends and family that the CAF is a force for good is worth more than just being a recruiting tool.

But to try and justify it as a recruiting tool would actually do more harm than good.
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Offline Jed

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2013, 10:21:52 »
The cadet program is not a direct recruiting tool and has not been one for many decades.  If you were to evaluate it as one, it would be recognized as a collosal failure based on the actual number of cadets who go on to join the military.

While stimulating interest in the activities of the CF does help many youth choose a career in the military, for the vast majority who don't, it releases into the wild a group of adults with a positive view of the CF that's a little more substantial than a "support the troops" magnet on the back of their car.    And not only them but their families too.   I once volunteered at an air cadet squadron in the GTA where almost 90% of the cadets were immigrants or first generation Canadian and it was seen by their parents as a way to help them "become Canadian".  For a few, there was quite a bit of resistance from their family in joining as, in the "old country", the military was a thing to be feared and not aspired to.  For these kids to go through the program and proving to their friends and family that the CAF is a force for good is worth more than just being a recruiting tool.

But to try and justify it as a recruiting tool would actually do more harm than good.

Right on. The program is about future good citizens, not necessarily the CF.
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Offline SF2

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2013, 10:25:47 »
Quote
The cadet program is not a direct recruiting tool and has not been one for many decades.  If you were to evaluate it as one, it would be recognized as a collosal failure based on the actual number of cadets who go on to join the military.

Same arguement could be made about the Snowbirds?  What is the annual audience numbers during a show season?  And how many go and join the CF?   :)

Offline FormerHorseGuard

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Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2013, 11:06:02 »
Peter MacKay
Cadets organizations across Canada play an important role in promoting good citizenship, leadership, community service and physical fitness among young Canadians. I believe in the merits of this program and the benefits it provides to Canadian communities are unparalled. In fact, the Cadet program is the best youth development program in Canada. It is regrettable that some oppostion members attempt to misinform canadians scare our fine young cadets, and their parents. As I informed the House of Commons, "I can assure the House that the cadet program will continue to enjoy the important use of gliders." There are to be no reductions in resources allocated to the Cadet glider program or any Cadet program. The Cadet program is here to stay.

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Offline GAP

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The title pretty much says it all

Air Cadet glider program safe from cuts, says MacKay
Department of National Defence emails warned program might be clipped
CBC News  May 2, 2013
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/05/02/ns-air-cadet-gliders.html
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe