Author Topic: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)  (Read 4194 times)

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2019, 23:46:42 »
That argument goes out the window when you've got Taekowndo as a national CAF sport

So that exposes a few dozen people a year to concussions. What happens when you integrate 'punching each other in the head' into a CAF wide training program, and then expose thousands of people to concussions every year as part of a training requirement?

In the Parachute Regiment we did 'milling'. Everyone had to pass it or they'd get binned from selection. The risk of concussions, broken noses, etc etc has been a well acknowledged risk of the selection process since WW2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpAHByFgBG4

(As you can probably tell, I did it before we had to wear head gear ;) ).

In Canada, now, I'm pretty sure that any large scale martial arts training program would be shut down pretty fast once the injury claims started flowing in....







"Now listen to me you benighted muckers. We're going to teach you soldiering. The world's noblest profession. When we're done with you, you'll be able to slaughter your enemies like civilized men." Daniel Dravot

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2019, 00:05:25 »
In the Parachute Regiment we did 'milling'. Everyone had to pass it or they'd get binned from selection. The risk of concussions, broken noses, etc etc has been a well acknowledged risk of the selection process since WW2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpAHByFgBG4

That right there is exactly why we need proper martial arts. That isn't two people training to fight, that's pure idiocy. Much like our current CQC program.

I won't say where in public, but I recently watched a CQCB course, run by CQCIs.... you have the blind leading the blind, and zero institutional direction/oversight, which had manifested into what was really just hazing new guys that hadn't even reached OFP yet.  It had an insanely high rate of concussions and other injuries. We're okay with this... yet not actual martial arts, in which injury rates are on par with any other sport?

What you are depicting in that video is not indicative of what martial arts training is.

So that exposes a few dozen people a year to concussions. What happens when you integrate 'punching each other in the head' into a CAF wide training program, and then expose thousands of people to concussions every year as part of a training requirement?

In Canada, now, I'm pretty sure that any large scale martial arts training program would be shut down pretty fast once the injury claims started flowing in....

That assumes that martial arts training has a high rate of injury (albeit concussions or other)... which I'm not sure there is any good data to support. Taekwondo does (at least... during the actual competition), but I have never advocated for it. It's sport form has turned it into a very ineffective martial art.

The problem with trying to measure any of this is that, as alluded to above with MAC, the rates of injuries *might* be high in competition... but the nature of these activities is you compete a limited times a year. So for the MAC example, 14.8% of competitors had an injury that led to some kind of work limitation... which would have been all kinds of owies such as jammed fingers and toes, twisted ankle, etc.

What about the injury rate over the duration of a of five years, including training and competition? You obviously don't have a 14.8% injury rate every training session, or else you'd have nobody very quickly... I've been training for a long time, I rarely see an injury in practice, and serious martial artists are some of the healthiest people out there.

In Canada, now, I'm pretty sure that any large scale martial arts training program would be shut down pretty fast once the injury claims started flowing in....

They said that about combatives grappling and in 5-6 years there has been almost no injuries and now PSP is taking it up as a CAF sport.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 00:08:49 by ballz »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2019, 00:11:29 »
That right there is exactly why we need proper martial arts. That isn't two people training to fight, that's pure idiocy.

I have to agree. This isn't martial arts training, it's weeding out people who can't take a few hits in the face and keep moving forward.

But any martial arts training can degenerate into 'milling', and worse, without the proper oversight. Given the difficulties we have staffing the FORCE tests with trained people right now..... 
"Now listen to me you benighted muckers. We're going to teach you soldiering. The world's noblest profession. When we're done with you, you'll be able to slaughter your enemies like civilized men." Daniel Dravot

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2019, 00:22:48 »
But any martial arts training can degenerate into 'milling', and worse, without the proper oversight. Given the difficulties we have staffing the FORCE tests with trained people right now.....

I agree, as noted in my story about the CQCB course... which was way worse than milling to be honest.

We need to change our approach, we can't be experts everything and we don't have to be shitty at everything. We waste human resources because we don't know how to manage resources (like money and time). For example, wasting human resources by running Basic First Aid, Basic Mountain Ops, Driver wheel, air brakes, etc.... all courses that we can pay a civilian expert to run for much less, as they have nothing about them that necessitates having them run by the CAF.

Which is why when I started a program on base, I didn't go running around looking for CQCIs who 1. might not have the expertise 2. might not have the time 3. might be posted out next month. I hired professionals to run it and it was dirt cheap and didn't eat up our leadership's constrained resource of time.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 00:27:48 by ballz »
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Offline Singh47

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2019, 01:42:17 »




https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/35/5/308

Not a lot of per 1000 hours stuff for martial arts.

Around 10 injuries per 1000 participants per year is around the average-ish for that muay thai study.

Essentially, if we're running hard we're probably more at risk of injury vs martial arts.

We need to stop viewing injuries as a freak occurrence and instead as a regular part of training.

The things the guys like to do: lift and fight are in fact, statistically, among the safest things they can be doing.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2019, 02:06:50 »




https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/35/5/308

Not a lot of per 1000 hours stuff for martial arts.

Around 10 injuries per 1000 participants per year is around the average-ish for that muay thai study.

Essentially, if we're running hard we're probably more at risk of injury vs martial arts.

We need to stop viewing injuries as a freak occurrence and instead as a regular part of training.

The things the guys like to do: lift and fight are in fact, statistically, among the safest things they can be doing.

Not to start a 'my stats are better than your stats' thing, but this Kingston study has some alarming findings:

"The popularity of martial arts has flourished over the past fifteen years [2]. Consequently, the number of injuries attributed to martial arts has also escalated [3]. Sport injuries result from acute trauma or repetitive stress associated with participation in athletic activities and can range from acute trauma to long-term disabilities [4]. Injuries in martial arts are common [5], especially amongst young adults [6], and thus may pose a potential public health concern."

"The participation-based rates indicate that a substantial number of martial art participants require emergency room care due to injury."

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-10-795

"Now listen to me you benighted muckers. We're going to teach you soldiering. The world's noblest profession. When we're done with you, you'll be able to slaughter your enemies like civilized men." Daniel Dravot

Offline marekbjj

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2019, 12:08:51 »
In convincing me to submit my application to join the military, my sar tech friend that trains at the same brazilian jiujitsu gym I do, says to me "You get time off to do PT, I come at lunch and train. Come on man! Get paid to do jiujitsu" LOL.

Also as a side note I recall there being a grappling tournament for that was streamed on CAF facebook, was really cool.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2019, 12:40:24 »

In the Parachute Regiment we did 'milling'. Everyone had to pass it or they'd get binned from selection. The risk of concussions, broken noses, etc etc has been a well acknowledged risk of the selection process since WW2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpAHByFgBG4

(As you can probably tell, I did it before we had to wear head gear ;) ).


Seems that they have a slightly more heightened awareness these days.

https://www.britisharmyboxing.com/information/medical/
Quote
THE MEDICAL MANAGEMENT OF SERVICE BOXING
. . .

Milling

54. Milling is an Army-only activity, mentioned here for completeness for Army readers only, which consists of brief spells of boxing-like activity undergone in the course of P Company selection and related activities. Standards of medical cover required in terms of medicals and medical cover are identical to boxing as set out above, the only difference being that for milling, headguards are still to be worn. For further information, contact OC P Company [24].
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2019, 17:28:36 »
Seems that they have a slightly more heightened awareness these days.

https://www.britisharmyboxing.com/information/medical/

They still do it ... and for a good reason. They don't tend to talk about the casualties though which, based on my experience, are at least about 1 in 5.

Army boxing is still a big deal in the UK, and involves a couple of hundred troops I would guess. I saw the results of that policy on our regimental boxers, most of whom looked continually shell shocked. Some were invalided out of the Army. I boxed myself a bit, for awhile, but quickly realized that military parachuting is much safer, so stuck with that :) .

Requiring activities like this to be part of the regular training experience for thousands of troops would swamp the healthcare system, I'm guessing.
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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2019, 19:50:59 »
We actually need to separate what is martial arts and what is just exercising. If you are hitting heavy bags / focus mitts / etc. but are not using "aliveness" (a principle of effective martial arts training), you are not training in martial arts.... you are just exercising.

Sure, and it's great exercise. My point was, you build up to actual contact, and wait until you have enough control and accuracy to do safely spar. Some people might want to just stick to the exercise parts, but I think punching/dodging focus mitts, speed bag, and whatever is still better than doing no kind of fighting training. Learning how to throw a punch/kick accurately and properly is a lot more interesting then running on a treadmill or picking things up and putting them down.

Concussions are definitely a concern, but you can do all kinds of useful things without head shots, so that shouldn't be the big stop sign preventing us from doing something.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2019, 21:31:37 »

In Canada, now, I'm pretty sure that any large scale martial arts training program would be shut down pretty fast once the injury claims started flowing in....
If injury rate was a concern, we would have replaced the CT1/2 parachute decades ago.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2019, 21:56:34 »
Years ago at CFSME in Chilliwack, our unarmed combat instructor seemed to take delight in demonstrating techniques on officer cadets.

He seemed much less interested in transferring knowledge than in transferring pain.
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Offline Singh47

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2019, 03:41:49 »
Give guys something to do or enjoy the retention problems is my only response to injuries (from marital arts etc).

:shrug:

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2019, 10:14:02 »
One thing I've always admired about the USMC is their commitment to the hand to hand stuff. They seem to have  a pretty slick Corps-Wide martial arts program ('One mind, any weapon') that might be worth looking at. At least it sounds like they've adapted the traditional martial arts to a suitable military purpose:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program

If you read the books on which they based the series 'The Pacific', ('Helmet for my Pillow' and 'With the Old Breed') there are several accounts of fairly significant H2H stuff with the Japanese. I assume this is one of the historical reasons they maintain the capability.
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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2019, 17:00:41 »
Ballz has the relevant points all wrapped up.  I will only add that after a few months of cajoling we've managed to get PSP to buy mats for CFC, so we will have a grappling program running here after Christmas with a BJJ black belt instructing and me supporting. We're moving in the right direction.

Offline Singh47

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Re: Martial Arts/CQC Trg in CAF (split fm Probe of WPG soldier's suicide)
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2019, 08:05:15 »
First, let’s update the bayonet. We continue to issue every soldier a bayonet that does not justify its own weight. Replace it with a sturdy, well-honed utility knife with a high-quality steel blade. Leave the bayonet mounting hardware on the hilt for the rare cases in which it becomes necessary. Teach the soldier how to handle a rifle and bayonet, but let’s bring in a professional in improvised fighting techniques to help develop a useful combat system for it. Parade square parries and thrusts are only appropriate if the enemy has had similar instruction and is willing to fight by mutually understood rules. The Military Manual of Self-Defence (55) offers a series of aggressive alternatives to traditional bayonet fighting movements, its focus more on disabling the opponent than parrying until a clean point can be made. While not necessarily offering a full replacement to classic bayonet training, it does show that more options exist.

On possible approach is to incorporate in Army physical fitness training a structured martial arts program. A discipline can be selected to develop confidence, balance, reflexes, and close combat tactics. This program could include combat techniques; both unarmed and with a variety of weapons, including the bayonet, within a progressive format. This program could lead to every field soldier having recognized skill levels in a close quarter combat system that supports rather than confines reflexive responses in hand-to-hand combat. It should also provide advanced training and continuous skill maintenance throughout a soldier’s career.

We must continue to train our soldier in close quarter combat techniques, but it should be based on a rational analysis of the purpose and components of that training untainted by the romanticism of tradition.

http://regimentalrogue.com/papers/bayonet6.htm