Author Topic: How the Navy treats its kids ... er, sailors (From: Re-Royalization)  (Read 22209 times)

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Offline medicineman

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FDU(P) like FDU(A) are just far enough away from the adults that they can get away with quite a bit, same as with the DC schools.

Funny you used the term adults...since we were actually treated that way, vice units elsewhere...including my own Mothership.  I figured that after 20 something years of service and a Crown on my uniform that I was no longer a Private but was soon mistaken  ::).

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Agree on the adult daycare aspect. Anyone who has worked at both the Halifax dockyard and Shearwater would likely agree that 99.9% of the handholding happens on the Hfx side.
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I on the other hand lost it at that person, since they were a PO2 and should have known better (this was literally my first day at Dockyard in Esquimalt).

Therein lies the problem that vexed you so.  They're chickenshyte, nitpicking, mofo's on that coast who have nothing better to do with themselves.  Hated any time I spent on that base for those reasons.

Offline FSTO

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Therein lies the problem that vexed you so.  They're chickenshyte, nitpicking, mofo's on that coast who have nothing better to do with themselves.  Hated any time I spent on that base for those reasons.
I guess we can fire a broadside at the East Coast as well. CFNOS and STAD is home to the most obtuse and spiteful group of self important arses in the RCN. It is beyond their intellectual capability to even consider that there is an ocean outside of their little east coast NATO bubble.

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#6. "The east coast vs. west coast debate will not be solved till either the west coast has an earthquake and sinks into the ocean or the east coast sobers up."
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=103022.0

Offline dapaterson

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As I watch the East and West Coast Navies slug it out here, I can't help but wonder when they will turn their attention to the People's Front of Judea...
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Offline daftandbarmy

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As I watch the East and West Coast Navies slug it out here, I can't help but wonder when they will turn their attention to the People's Front of Judea...

Surely you are referring to the 'Judean People's Front'? 8)
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Offline dapaterson

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Surely you are referring to the 'Judean People's Front'? 8)

SPLITTER!
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Surely you are referring to the 'Judean People's Front'? 8)

Either of you got any Wolf's nipple chips...

Offline medicineman

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Therein lies the problem that vexed you so.  They're chickenshyte, nitpicking, mofo's on that coast who have nothing better to do with themselves.  Hated any time I spent on that base for those reasons.

There are/were a lot of people there that need/needed to shake their heads until the rattling stops/stopped... basic leadership/parenting - if you want to enforce regulations, don't do it selectively, do it to everyone.  I don't know how many people I politely and not so politely took aside about everything from hands in their pockets to walking around like school kids (P2 with their pink lunch bag) to officers ignoring me when I saluted them to basically looking like Paddy Bag'O'Shyte.

I can see where some of the hand holding has to come from when you see how many charges for drugs, drunk and stupid, AWA and such came out of the Fleet School and off the ships.  I've worked with 2 infantry battalions and hadn't seen as many charges from them combined as I'd seen in Vic...as the Clinic WO, the Cox'n at CFFS(E) basically had me on speed dial to book fit for detention medicals pretty much every other Friday (incidentally, that Chief didn't need to shake his head - he was switched on).  And don't get me going about the blind drug testing that came up like 30% positive or so for PO's and Chiefs (the things that come up at Fleet Chief's O Groups).  Esquimalt was one of the few bases I did duty where I consistently had defaulters to supervise...and since for some weird twist of Duty Kharma, I ALWAYS worked Hallow'een or it's designated Friday or Saturday  ::), so a lot of babysitting and not much sleep.  Thankfully the guardhouse is right next to Nelly's.

I could go on...but now my coffee is kicking in and I'm relaxing  :nod:

MM
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I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

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I guess we can fire a broadside at the East Coast as well. CFNOS and STAD is home to the most obtuse and spiteful group of self important arses in the RCN. It is beyond their intellectual capability to even consider that there is an ocean outside of their little east coast NATO bubble.

CFNOS... that's because they're DIBS.  I agree.  Bos'n U was a special place, but honestly, I always thought that was because it was filled with Bos'ns.  They are a funny breed.

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If the system worked...we would not see the need for random times when CPOs are stationed at the dockyard gates to "catch infractions". If the unit / ship level divisional worked in a perfect world, there would be no need for base / formation / fleet CPOs to post people at the gates.

As a LS, I respectfully pointed out dress errors and was duly ignored.
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Offline quadrapiper

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Medicineman - curious if you think the presence of the schools skews either the leadership culture of the larger bases, or the actual number of dirtbags?

Also, curious how well-established and stable current ship's companies are in comparison to those infantry battalions.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Having dress police showed nothing other than a lack of both discipline and leadership in the RCN, and leadership from the Jnr NCO level and up.  IMO it also showed the snr leadership didn't really know how to fix those 2 problems.

I saw the dress police at Stad and shook my head. 
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Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Halifax Tar

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This is not an RCN issue.  I am currently part of 4 Can Div at CFB Kingston.  I just wrapped up the 3 previous years at CFJSR and before that TDd to 2 Svc for work up and deployment for roughly 14 months. 

I have seen nothing different across these environments.  I would love talk about the last 12 months but seeing as I am still with this unit I won't say a thing. 

It's all the same shitty thing.  No environment is better or worse as far as I can see.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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It was an issue at Stad.  I also saw MCpls with big lace loops not tucked in boots and other junk like that in Shearwater, sitting beside WOs at the MIR and nothing being said.

I never saw anything like that before, ever, on a army base (I don't consider Kingston an army base).

Last summer at Wing Supply, I saw a Pte who had obviously not shaved before coming into work.  I pulled him aside and asked him if he had a shaving chit, which he did not.  When I said the obvious "you do know you are supposed to shave" stuff he said "I don't work for you".

My reply of "well why don't we go across the road so you can explain this theory to the WCWOs Assistant?" changed the attitude and he started to remember he was in the military.

It is slipping across the board and it's a leadership failure everyone from Jnr NCOs to the Top needs to follow through on. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 19:53:08 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline dapaterson

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No environment is better or worse as far as I can see.

Well, from what I've seen the RCAF is the next best thing to being in the military  >:D
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Offline Halifax Tar

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It was an issue at Stad.  I also saw MCpls with big lace loops not tucked in boots and other junk like that in Shearwater, sitting beside WOs at the MIR and nothing being said.

I never saw anything like that before, ever, on a army base (I don't consider Kingston an army base).

Last summer at Wing Supply, I saw a Pte who had obviously not shaved before coming into work.  I pulled him aside and asked him if he had a shaving chit, which he did not.  When I said the obvious "you do know you are supposed to shave" stuff he said "I don't work for you".

My reply of "well why don't we go across the road so you can explain this theory to the WCWOs Assistant?" changed the attitude and he started to remember he was in the military.

It is slipping across the board and it's a leadership failure everyone from Jnr NCOs to the Top needs to follow through on.

Consider Kingston what you want its part of 4 Can Div and therefore a CA base, with logger units as a caveat.

About a month after joining CFJSR we were deploying the regiment to the field, en mass, for what was the first time in 8 years.  So I tried to hold a kit inspection for my RQ staff.  I was pulled aside by my Sgt and was told he thought I was being mean. 

I wear NCDs every day, and I press them before ware, and polish my boots every night.  You should see the odd looks I get from people around here for meeting the expected dress standards.

I have to say, I have spent the last 2 weeks assisting with a BOI at RMCC and it is the only place I have seen Sgts and WOs act their rank, while in Kingston.  They have no issue you stopping a cadet and fixing a dress and deportment issue.

I was shocked when I arrived in Pet to see people parking on grass, the shacks were a mess and the dress standards were deplorable.  Seemed to me that the grungier you looked the cooler more warriorish you were. 

If you want to know why the MCpls and below have the attitudes they have look at the Sgts and up.  They are the ones to blame. 

I say again, you can point fingers all you want at the RCN but this is not their issue.  This is an issue right across the CAF.

Well, from what I've seen the RCAF is the next best thing to being in the military  >:D

I have never worked with/for the RCAF but I hear the same things  >:D
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Offline medicineman

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Medicineman - curious if you think the presence of the schools skews either the leadership culture of the larger bases, or the actual number of dirtbags?

Also, curious how well-established and stable current ship's companies are in comparison to those infantry battalions.

Honestly, I'd expect the presence of the schools to make people more cognizant of their own dress and deportment, attitudes, etc, as people should be setting the examples for young'ens to follow. When I was a baby medic in Borden, we knew damn well we were being watched at all times by just not our own staff and more senior students, but others from other schools, who had little reporting chains.  Now not so much.  I do think though it is largely a change in leadership culture (or lack of it general) - the generation of "me".  The "me" crowds don't go out of their way for anything or anyone...

As for the ships vs battalions, again it varies with leadership within the units or even sub-units.  I had a CSM that would pack on loads of extra work for someone vice charging them unless was absolutely necessary - another in the same battalion would charge people at the drop of a hat for something that would make some old school RSM's cringe.  I'd have to say that if someone is getting charged, it's often because something got out of hand at a lower level - MCpl/MS.  Some of thoe ships had a lot of problems that likely needed to be dealt with.

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Offline captloadie

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This thread is quite an interesting read. Not for the slagging of the different environments, or the "you won't believe what I saw" commnets, but for how it provides a counter point to other posts in different threads. In the sexual harassment thread, there is a tangent on how RMC doesn't provide the leadership to allow Ocdts to become adults, it babies them too much and enforces an ethos that someone is always keeping an eye on you. Yet here, that is exactly what we are saying needs to happen to keep people cognizant we are in the military and there are standards. That it is actually beneficial leadership quality. I can't find the exact thread at the moment, but I read in another thread that there is too much emphasis on dress and deportment and not enough on soldiering skills and things that "matter" (maybe its in the Buttons and bows thread).

There is no doubt we have allowed the standard to be relaxed. This wouldn't be a bad thing, if the majority of CAF members has the common sense to know when and what is acceptable. In this day and age, I think there are greater numbers of individuals who do not possess that common sense.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Maybe we are not following thru enough in the phases of discipline to the desired end state; self discipline.

Every NCM and officer are to know and obey all orders and regulations, including dress regs.

Those who don't adhere to regs are supposed to be corrected by their superiors..

Based on that, this really boils down to lack of self discipline and failing leadership. The fix should come from the applicable Sunray.

There used to be pride in appearance.  Bringing that back is a leadership function, from Jnr NCOs on up.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 16:53:29 by Eye In The Sky »
Everything happens for a reason.

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If one is so worried about the loops or lack thereof in my boot laces, then they have too much time on their hands that could be better spent elsewhere.  Unless they are a total bag of shyte, then don't sweat the small stuff.  And really, if you're hovering over Stad like some sort of Vulture looking for an easy kill, you're not at your desk/shop doing your job...  elsewise, go to Esquimault/St Jean where your latent talents will be better appreciated.

Isn't there the maxim, "no inspection ready unit ever passed combat and no combat ready unit ever passed inspection?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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To an extent, I agree.  Having said that I still lace my boots the way I was taught in Cornwallis 26 summers ago. 

If you lace your parade boots  like combat boots, well you are lazy and should know better.  If you get picked up on parade its your own fault.

In the field, flying etc if you work for me and tie your boots up, I really only care they arent a safety issue and stay on your feet.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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If the system worked...we would not see the need for random times when CPOs are stationed at the dockyard gates to "catch infractions". If the unit / ship level divisional worked in a perfect world, there would be no need for base / formation / fleet CPOs to post people at the gates.

As a LS, I respectfully pointed out dress errors and was duly ignored.
God forbid, if I ever forgot my "war of 1812 pin".    :facepalm:

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Offline Halifax Tar

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If one is so worried about the loops or lack thereof in my boot laces, then they have too much time on their hands that could be better spent elsewhere.  Unless they are a total bag of shyte, then don't sweat the small stuff.  And really, if you're hovering over Stad like some sort of Vulture looking for an easy kill, you're not at your desk/shop doing your job...  elsewise, go to Esquimault/St Jean where your latent talents will be better appreciated.

Isn't there the maxim, "no inspection ready unit ever passed combat and no combat ready unit ever passed inspection?

Spoken like a true engineer ;)   

That maxim is a misnomer because for a unit to go into combat it has to pass various readiness "inspections".  If I cant trust a Cpl to show up to work looking right dressed and well turned out how exactly can I expect his equipment to be in operational shape and well maintained ?

JJT like it or not part of our job is dress and deportment.  Why cant we have people that can make things happen and look presentable as well ? 

I get it, when your crawling around the bilges you are going to get dirty, to put it lightly.  But that does not mean that you cannot clean up and make yourself look presentable when you leave work. 

You know I love you JJT ;)
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Offline George Wallace

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Guess no one told you why boots are laced a certain way in jobs that may require cutting footwear off an injured foot/leg.
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Guess no one told you why boots are laced a certain way in jobs that may require cutting footwear off an injured foot/leg.

Not to mention you better hope Ghurkhas aren't operating in your area as well if you X lace your boots.  I had an instructor in college who found out at first light, why, while operating in the same area of Aden many many moons ago.  One Aussie who refused to heed the warnings really found out the hard way.

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Spoken like a true engineer ;)   

That maxim is a misnomer because for a unit to go into combat it has to pass various readiness "inspections".  If I cant trust a Cpl to show up to work looking right dressed and well turned out how exactly can I expect his equipment to be in operational shape and well maintained ?

JJT like it or not part of our job is dress and deportment.  Why cant we have people that can make things happen and look presentable as well ? 

I get it, when your crawling around the bilges you are going to get dirty, to put it lightly.  But that does not mean that you cannot clean up and make yourself look presentable when you leave work. 

You know I love you JJT ;)

I know you do.   :nod:  But going out the gate looking like a bag of rags is one thing and fair game.  Nit picking is another.  I don't have patience for people with too much time on their hands.

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You know I love you JJT ;)

I know you do.   :nod:

You Navy guys want some privacy or something? >:D
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You Navy guys want some privacy or something? >:D

Reasonably sure that's a foreign concept to them. ;)
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Isn't there the maxim, "no inspection ready unit ever passed combat and no combat ready unit ever passed inspection?

Utter nonsense.

There are certainly "garret troopers" (as Barry Sadler referred to them) out there, but I've never met a "great field soldier" who looked like a bag of shyte in garrison.  As Halifax Tar said, if a guy can't get his act together to look presentable in garrison, he certainly cannot be trusted to look after his own or his unit's kit.  Keep in mind that the military obsession with cleaning, polishing, pressing, etc. actually has operational origins.  In days past, soldiers/sailors maintained their kit by cleaning it (polishing, oiling, etc).  A clean, well-maintained uniform was usually indicative of a clean, healthy soldier/sailor.

A well maintained, clean, polished, pressed uniform and combat skills are not mutually exclusive, but rather complimentary.  Those of us who believe in high standards for "buttons and bows" and drill and ceremonial do not also believe that combat skills are less important.  We want it all.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 08:31:40 by Pusser »
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 I am not suggesting that I want to be or see bags shyte walking around, but, I do care more about if you can do your job rather than if you look pretty.  How snappy a dresser you are means little if you are an idiot workwise.  Sure it's nice to have it all, however, I lean more on the ability side than pretty side. 

Offline Pusser

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  Sure it's nice to have it all, however, I lean more on the ability side than pretty side.

As do I.  As should we all.  However, I would question the ability of anyone who cannot achieve a "presentable" appearance (keeping also in mind that "presentable" may mean covered in grease/paint if one is actually greasing/painting at the time).
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Offline Halifax Tar

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We keep forgetting that maintaining your uniform and looking sharp is as much part of your job as your technical aspects.

For the record I have yet to meet a bag-o-shyte that wasn't a bag-o-shyte all across the board. 
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Offline George Wallace

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We keep forgetting that maintaining your uniform and looking sharp is as much part of your job as your technical aspects.

For the record I have yet to meet a bag-o-shyte that wasn't a bag-o-shyte all across the board.

I agree with you, however, I have run across the rare few in my time in service that, although good soldiers, just could not be dressed up to look sharp.  No matter how you (and they) tried, you could never make them look presentable in any uniform.  Even in Cbts they looked like "a bag-o-shyte".
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I can think of one now retired stoker fromt the east coast in particular who is brilliant, but quite frankly a bit, well quite a bit of a savant.  I remember helping Danny put on his floater jacket at a Sea Survival Refresher as he was having some trouble making it happen.  He could at times not be expected to have all the buttons and bows correct, that did not detract from the good side of his abilities.  After all Einstine couldn't come to grips with driving a car, was famous for walking up to strangers in Princetown, introducing himself and asking if they knew where he lived as he was lost. 

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For the record I have yet to meet a bag-o-shyte that wasn't a bag-o-shyte all across the board.

I have served with quite a few people that seemed to have been born covered in dust, dirt and grease, but were still first rate soldiers, sailors and airmen. I also know plenty of people who where pretty enough to be on the cover of a magazine, but were completely useless professionally.

Clothes don't make the man.

Offline Halifax Tar

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I have served with quite a few people that seemed to have been born covered in dust, dirt and grease, but were still first rate soldiers, sailors and airmen. I also know plenty of people who where pretty enough to be on the cover of a magazine, but were completely useless professionally.

Clothes don't make the man.

There is a big difference in someone who gets dirty doing a job and someone who cannot maintain or wear the uniform properly. 

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There is a big difference in someone who gets dirty doing a job and someone who cannot maintain or wear the uniform properly.

 :goodpost:

I would say that applies to all Elements, and even outside the military.




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I remember in Shilo 20 years ago sorting out a young Bdr for being a walking sh!t show. I was PO1 a the time. I subsequently received a call from his Sgt asking me how dare I sort out one of his troops. My response: If you were doing your job, then I wouldn't have to do it for you.

Reinforcing good dress and deportment is a function of leadership of both the group and the self.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Older people (like me) may remember this line from trading places:

"I have always said that religion is like everything else: It's OK when taken in moderation."

I think this is the same. Yes, we all passed a very high standard of dress in our basic training and we all know that level can be required of us for a parade for the Queen's Mother. But for the civilian's too, there is a difference between dressing up to be best man at a wedding and dressing to show up at the office on a weekday.

We must expect from our people a correct level of dress on an ordinary day, which means everything that should be worn is worn, in the right place and at the right "angle", but not so over pressed/starched/spit as may be required when on parade.

And the NCO's must be able to tell the difference. Best example (in my mind) has always been shoes. The regs state they must be "clean" and "polished black". It has never stated they must be "spit-shinned". If you shoes are clean and black with proper polish, the same way a clean and proper civilian working in an office's would be on an ordinary day, you meet the standard on an ordinary military working day. The spit shine can be kept for parade days or similar special days.

Anyone who can keep that standard up has no business being corrected.

Too often, the Dress Police goes around trying to enforce the "parade" level of dress instead of addressing failure to meet the "lower" ordinary day standard and they lose the respect they should have.  If you fail to meet that  "minimal" standard, however, yo deserve what you get.

jollyjacktar

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 :goodpost: