Author Topic: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0  (Read 197338 times)

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Offline Retired RCN

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1500 on: November 17, 2020, 15:45:45 »
Minister Blair's second attempt to find a private company to administer the OIC's proposed compensated confiscation regime ("buyback") has gone unanswered.

Now what?

They're either put it out again with more favorable terms, give it to the public service to administer or go with grandfathering.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1501 on: November 17, 2020, 16:45:34 »
They're either put it out again with more favorable terms, give it to the public service to administer or go with grandfathering.

The NDP and Bloc won't support a grandfathering. The Liberals need either one of them to survive the next confidence vote.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1502 on: November 17, 2020, 17:08:09 »
High River Flood, redux.
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Offline Retired RCN

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1503 on: November 17, 2020, 17:37:27 »
The NDP and Bloc won't support a grandfathering. The Liberals need either one of them to survive the next confidence vote.

Have they taken that off the table officially though and its yet to be seen that this would go to a confidence vote, we're still almost 2 more years away from that.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1504 on: November 17, 2020, 17:51:47 »
Have they taken that off the table officially though and its yet to be seen that this would go to a confidence vote, we're still almost 2 more years away from that.

In this article from early May (mere sitting days ago during a pandemic), the Bloc head stated he was “stupefied” to learn the government plans to introduce a “grandfather” option for gun owners. He said the Bloc will not support a gun control bill unless it is mandatory for gun owners to take part in a buyback program for the thousands of firearms now prohibited by law.

“We believe that the program should be mandatory because otherwise the actual effect of the law would be minimal and insufficient,” Blanchet said.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1505 on: November 17, 2020, 18:01:50 »
In this article from early May (mere sitting days ago during a pandemic), the Bloc head stated he was “stupefied” to learn the government plans to introduce a “grandfather” option for gun owners. He said the Bloc will not support a gun control bill unless it is mandatory for gun owners to take part in a buyback program for the thousands of firearms now prohibited by law.

“We believe that the program should be mandatory because otherwise the actual effect of the law would be minimal and insufficient,” Blanchet said.

So a mention about it 7 months ago and nothing since the great covid cash giveaway.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1506 on: November 17, 2020, 19:09:01 »
So a mention about it 7 months ago and nothing since the great covid cash giveaway.

They will milk it by banning more guns coming the next election, actually taking the guns is problematic and costs money, banning them and forcing legal gun owners to store them without being able to use them is cost-efficient and good political bang for the buck (for them).

Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1507 on: November 17, 2020, 20:29:08 »
So a mention about it 7 months ago and nothing since the great covid cash giveaway.
  I wouldn't expect another mention by the BQ until the details of the "buyback" (compensated compensation TM) or any potential grandfathering are announced. The wording of the OIC does not entrench grandfathering so it would not surprise me if the Liberals abandoned it in order to gain support from the NDP and BQ in the future.

They will milk it by banning more guns coming the next election.

They have banned an additional 300 or so models since the May OIC.  I don't think you'll have to wait much longer for the handgun legislation, either.

..actually taking the guns is problematic and costs money, banning them and forcing legal gun owners to store them without being able to use them is cost-efficient and good political bang for the buck (for them).

It's also quite a strategic play.  Any election proposal by Team Blue to do away with the bans because the "buyback" and grandfathering have yet to occur will be played as pandering to the gun lobby.   But that could backfire as it also could show Team Red wasn't really serious about getting scary guns off the street, because none have been turned in yet.
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1508 on: November 17, 2020, 22:26:24 »
I honestly don't see much political gain to the Liberals for these bans. Gun control doesn't gain votes but it does cost them, there isn't a huge following of rabid anti-gun people whose vote can be swayed. There are a few who are dead set against firearm ownership but they are the minority, most Canadians are more or less indifferent unless there is some big and scary event in the news (usually based in the USA).

There is however a huge following of firearm owners though and attacking them has a significant effect on rural votes in particular. I just really don't understand what they are aiming for, it is non-sensical to me. I could understand if there was some huge political gain but I don't see one there. I only see political expenditure and effort to achieve a net zero state for them.

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1509 on: November 18, 2020, 08:00:55 »
I'm curious to know the effect that the amount of shootings in Toronto is having on gun control voters. No doubt, there are still those who will insist on more gun control, but with the ban in place and shootings still happening in Toronto at a rising rate, and gun owners sitting there constantly saying "I told you so," I wonder how many centrist voters are starting to wonder why we're spending 10-fold on buying back guns rather than fighting gang activity / gun smuggling. I know Twitter is not a way to gauge anything in reality, but usually a shooting in Toronto leads to another Twitter war on Bill Blair's page... now it seems a lot of the pro gun control folk have gone a lot more silent.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1510 on: November 18, 2020, 12:16:22 »
I honestly don't see much political gain to the Liberals for these bans. Gun control doesn't gain votes but it does cost them, there isn't a huge following of rabid anti-gun people whose vote can be swayed.
  Internal polling tells them otherwise.  Gun control is rabidly popular in urban areas where legal ownership rates are low.

There is however a huge following of firearm owners though and attacking them has a significant effect on rural votes in particular. I just really don't understand what they are aiming for, it is non-sensical to me. I could understand if there was some huge political gain but I don't see one there. I only see political expenditure and effort to achieve a net zero state for them.
  By being very selective in what they banned and stating that they will protect the "rights" of hunters and farmers (Why are they the only ones who have gun "rights"?) they have pretty much shielded themselves from the rural impacts of this and future bans.

I'm curious to know the effect that the amount of shootings in Toronto is having on gun control voters. No doubt, there are still those who will insist on more gun control
  The guns banned in May were not the ones being used in Toronto's shootings, which involve handguns for the most part. Those bans are coming soon.

I wonder how many centrist voters are starting to wonder why we're spending 10-fold on buying back guns rather than fighting gang activity / gun smuggling.
  Because the confiscation plan hasn't been announced (or even developed) no real money has been spent on this.  In fact, most, if not all, of the crime fighting money promised in the last election has yet to be disbursed.
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1511 on: November 18, 2020, 13:21:19 »
  Internal polling tells them otherwise.  Gun control is rabidly popular in urban areas where legal ownership rates are low.
  By being very selective in what they banned and stating that they will protect the "rights" of hunters and farmers (Why are they the only ones who have gun "rights"?) they have pretty much shielded themselves from the rural impacts of this and future bans.

I wouldn't say its rabidly popular though. You ask your average person in a urban area if they are against handguns or 'assault weapons' they tend to say yes (despite not even knowing our laws or the definitions of those terms), however it isn't really a wedge issue for them. They get up in arms when something bad happens but overall its a short term anger which dies very quickly (generally a week or less). Its not like they aren't going to vote Liberal if they don't have this issue pushed. They are basically neutral on the subject with a preference for banning based off ignorance (mostly American based news). For every person who has this as a wedge issue for them on the banning side, there is likely 100 people who have this as a wedge issue the opposite direction. The pro-banning camp has no real skin in the game. They aren't losing anything so they don't have much incentive to be dead against it.

They really haven't shielded themselves from the rural impacts of this. I live in a more rural area and I haven't met a single farmer, hunter, or firearms owner who isn't pissed off about this. One guy I know, about as hard core 'fudd' as you can be, is angry about this. Even though he is against the ownership of handguns and such he just so happens to have a wood stocked Mini-14 he can no longer use.

Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1512 on: November 18, 2020, 19:54:06 »
I wouldn't say its rabidly popular though.
Internal polling, conducted by the party and for the party shows the opposite.  In fact, Liberals see gun control as key to winning certain crime plagued urban centres.

You ask your average person in a urban area if they are against handguns or 'assault weapons' they tend to say yes (despite not even knowing our laws or the definitions of those terms), however it isn't really a wedge issue for them. They get up in arms when something bad happens but overall its a short term anger which dies very quickly (generally a week or less). Its not like they aren't going to vote Liberal if they don't have this issue pushed.
A Liberal-commissioned Angus Reid poll conducted in metro Toronto immediately prior to the May 1st OIC showed overwhelming support for the full ban of civilian ownership of "assault weapons" and a two thirds support for a full ban on legally owned handguns.

They really haven't shielded themselves from the rural impacts of this. I live in a more rural area and I haven't met a single farmer, hunter, or firearms owner who isn't pissed off about this.
  I also live in a rural area and know many farmers and hunters who support the ban entirely because they believe sacrificing sport shooters and handgunners, safeguards their 'rights' to own hunting rifles and shotguns.

One guy I know, about as hard core 'fudd' as you can be, is angry about this. Even though he is against the ownership of handguns and such he just so happens to have a wood stocked Mini-14 he can no longer use.

He is a notable and admirable exception.  The Liberals categorically omitted sport shooters from their promise to respect the "rights" of Canadian gun owners in their 2019 policy statement.
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1513 on: November 19, 2020, 08:23:53 »
Internal polling, conducted by the party and for the party shows the opposite.  In fact, Liberals see gun control as key to winning certain crime plagued urban centres.
 A Liberal-commissioned Angus Reid poll conducted in metro Toronto immediately prior to the May 1st OIC showed overwhelming support for the full ban of civilian ownership of "assault weapons" and a two thirds support for a full ban on legally owned handguns.
  I also live in a rural area and know many farmers and hunters who support the ban entirely because they believe sacrificing sport shooters and handgunners, safeguards their 'rights' to own hunting rifles and shotguns.

He is a notable and admirable exception.  The Liberals categorically omitted sport shooters from their promise to respect the "rights" of Canadian gun owners in their 2019 policy statement.

Well then the Liberals are making policy on poorly thought out questions to ignorant people. I personally believe most Canadians don't really give much of a thought about our gun laws other than they are 'better than America'. Certainly not enough to change how they intend to vote, its not like marijuana. I just see it as a huge political cost to them with not much gain. Not only that the people they think they would 'gain' are likely already voting for them or the NDP to begin with, not really swing voters.

All the policies the Liberals have been adopting recently I think are going to push more people away then pull them in. They are moving farther and farther to the Left and the Centralists are more likely to be voting Conservative at this point than anything. I just hope they don't destroy the country first, last time a Trudeau had a spending spree like this it brought about the creation of GST to counter it.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1514 on: November 19, 2020, 10:09:13 »
All the policies the Liberals have been adopting recently I think are going to push more people away then pull them in. They are moving farther and farther to the Left and the Centralists are more likely to be voting Conservative at this point than anything. I just hope they don't destroy the country first, last time a Trudeau had a spending spree like this it brought about the creation of GST to counter it.

It’s only a matter of time before the GST gets bumped back up to 7% if not 8%...

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1515 on: November 19, 2020, 15:49:45 »
It’s only a matter of time before the GST gets bumped back up to 7% if not 8%...

Optimist 😆
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1516 on: November 19, 2020, 16:21:38 »
Optimist 😆

I agree- it will be at least 10%.

As an aside, there are worse ways to raise taxes. At least with a sales tax, you choose to buy things or not. Not so much with income tax.

Offline Weinie

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1517 on: November 19, 2020, 17:54:44 »
I agree- it will be at least 10%.

As an aside, there are worse ways to raise taxes. At least with a sales tax, you choose to buy things or not. Not so much with income tax.

Sure, but some things that are taxable are also close to essential: gas for the car, kids clothes are but two that come to mind, and I can't unchoose having to buy them (sans horse and buggy and a spinning wheel) There are a host of others that are also in this category; yes I can choose to avoid them, but at what social/psychological/incremental cost?

Sin taxes may be another way to recoup, although it may push for even more black market sales.

I would prefer if gov'ts at all levels stopped buying votes with my money and running deficits.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/categories/tax-freedom-day

CPP deductions are scheduled to rise 5.9% on Jan 1 2021. With a population that now features more folks over 65 than under 16, these increases will only continue. Couple in the rising health care costs and the PST and Provincial Income tax portion is likely to rise as well.

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1518 on: November 19, 2020, 18:34:15 »
Optimist 😆

Guilty as charged! ;D

Honestly, I’m with SKT, I’d rather have increased GST than increased income tax...at least I’d have control of how much of my money the Liberals would tax and spew...

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1519 on: November 19, 2020, 18:36:07 »
To continue with this slight derail. I am not against a GST increase, it remains one of my greatest disappointments that Harper followed through on that instead of other tax reforms. Of course it's a questionable bet that any increase in the GST would be offset by a reduction in income taxes

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1520 on: November 19, 2020, 18:42:12 »
To continue with this slight derail. I am not against a GST increase, it remains one of my greatest disappointments that Harper followed through on that instead of other tax reforms. Of course it's a questionable bet that any increase in the GST would be offset by a reduction in income taxes

Not expecting a reduction in income tax, would be happy with no change to income tax and a bump in GST. EuroVATs are in the high-teen/low-20s %, so a return of GST to 7 or even further to 8-10 would be in line with European VAT and would also be enough on all tax payers alike that even the base the Liberals pander to would feel enough pain to not just support them blindly like in times past.

Offline Weinie

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1521 on: November 19, 2020, 18:46:31 »
Not expecting a reduction in income tax, would be happy with no change to income tax and a bump in GST. EuroVATs are in the high-teen/low-20s %, so a return of GST to 7 or even further to 8-10 would be in line with European VAT and would also be enough on all tax payers alike that even the base the Liberals pander to would feel enough pain to not just support them blindly like in times past.

But that still has an impact on your disposable income. Income taxes are a hot button issue, consumption taxes, not so much, so easier to get buy-in. Add in an increase in deductions to CPP, EI etc, it is quacking and walking like a duck.

I would prefer some governmental spending restraints personally.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 19:04:38 by Weinie »
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1522 on: November 19, 2020, 19:24:35 »
I would prefer some governmental spending restraints personally.

You and me both, Weinie! :nod:   I just think the LPC needs to have the “enough virtue signalling is enough, you’re impacting our QOL” for their base, not just the evil center-to-right folks...

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1523 on: November 19, 2020, 19:29:27 »
But that still has an impact on your disposable income. Income taxes are a hot button issue, consumption taxes, not so much, so easier to get buy-in. Add in an increase in deductions to CPP, EI etc, it is quacking and walking like a duck.

I would prefer some governmental spending restraints personally.

I think that income taxes especially for the large proportion of Canadians are a negative drag on productivity. While some spending restraint would be appreciated especially for this government. I am not unduly concerned about the amount of Covid spending/stimulus but rather the manner in which the government has decided who gets what.

The problem with spending restraint is that it still requires competent management to exercise it something that is lacking across many institutions and corporations not just government. We will probably end up with our emergency supplies dumped in  the landfill again while the true waste remains untouched

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1524 on: November 21, 2020, 08:09:25 »
In a desperate attempt to steer this back on topic, the PM received a briefing note mere days after the shooting and before the May 1st OIC outlining that all the Nova Scotia shooter's firearms and magazines were illegally obtained.  Yet, the ban went ahead using this crime as one example of why it was needed. So much for evidence based governance.
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