Author Topic: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)  (Read 172464 times)

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Offline garb811

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #425 on: May 29, 2019, 20:09:46 »
The first time that I remember seeing this travesty was during the Chretien years.

Somebody either had an ego problem, or was trying to suck up.

There was certainly no such "entitlement" during the early part of my career.

It's wrong, and revolting.
I was present when Mulroney was saluted in the late 80s, pretty sure he predates Chretien... The MND was definitely being saluted at that time as well, a friend of mine was jacked up for not doing it.
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Saluting Distance
« Reply #426 on: May 29, 2019, 20:16:39 »
And then there was the Field Ambulance RSM who (as the story is told) would begin any telephone communication with an officer by popping to attention and saying "SIR, I AM SALUTING YOU".

I immediately thought of John Cleese for some reason.
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Offline Furniture

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Re: Saluting Distance
« Reply #427 on: May 29, 2019, 21:06:31 »
I suppose conversational distance depends on the individual.  Back in the dark ages, I recall a PPCLI Sergeant Major who not only saluted officers who may be passing by on the other end/side of the Currie Barracks parade square, but could be plainly heard demanding that the officer return the salute.  And then there was the Field Ambulance RSM who (as the story is told) would begin any telephone communication with an officer by popping to attention and saying "SIR, I AM SALUTING YOU".

The long range salute isn't limited to the army... I had a Capt speak with me when I was a Pte in Cold Lake because I didn't salute him from across the road in the dark(I didn't even see him there). He waited in the hallway of the hangar to jack me up while I was returning from collecting my data for an observation.


Offline mariomike

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #428 on: May 29, 2019, 21:36:33 »
I was present when Mulroney was saluted in the late 80s, pretty sure he predates Chretien...

Wasn't there a news item about the RCMP having to politely explain to Mrs. M. that she was not entitled to a salute?

Is it customary in the US to salute FLOTUS?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 22:22:31 by mariomike »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #429 on: May 29, 2019, 22:53:04 »
Who doesn’t like my little scheme of marchin up and down the square?
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #430 on: May 30, 2019, 17:52:29 »
I was present when Mulroney was saluted in the late 80s, pretty sure he predates Chretien... The MND was definitely being saluted at that time as well, a friend of mine was jacked up for not doing it.

Agreed.  While it may not have been in the book [I checked CAMT 2-2 Drill (All Arms) (1959) and a CFOCS "Officers' Handbook Jul 1985"] it was probably always the accepted protocol to salute the PM and MND on appropriate occasions, (e.g. arr/dep military functions, establishments, or vehicles).  I think (but cannot be sure) that when I went through Cornwallis in the 1970s we were told that we were to salute those who were in that "chain of command" list that we had to memorize (the PM and MND of the day were in the list along with the Queen, GG, CDS and the BComd among others).  As for when such a practice began, I think this pre-dates Mulroney, Chretien or any other holder of the office that most here would have come into contact with.  What's that happening as he exits the vehicle? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaODHPGxV-I

Though British Army regulations don't specifically state that serving soldiers will (or will not) salute their PM and Defence Minister, it does very clearly say what level of honours (size of guards, no of gun salutes, etc) such office holders may receive when ceremony coincides with their job.

In one response to a (British) FOIA request the following was the reply.  It seems eminently civilized.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/758963/05935.pdf
Quote
(iii) Is it incorrect for the armed forces personnel to salute members of Her Majesty's Government?

In short it is rarely wrong for anyone to pay a compliment to another and while there is no stated requirement to salute a member of Her Majesty’s Government, it is customary to do so in appropriate circumstances.

The world being the place it is and people being people, I can understand some on these means who have objections rendering any sort of honours to any individual with a political connection.  Thankfully, I no longer am compelled to render compliments to anyone; if I still was, my objection would be to the blanket requirement to salute any member of the Royal Family.  If one had to choose whom was more deserving of honours, which would it be - photo 1 or photo 2?
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #431 on: May 30, 2019, 18:05:46 »
#2
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Offline Furniture

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #432 on: May 31, 2019, 06:30:49 »
The world being the place it is and people being people, I can understand some on these means who have objections rendering any sort of honours to any individual with a political connection.  Thankfully, I no longer am compelled to render compliments to anyone; if I still was, my objection would be to the blanket requirement to salute any member of the Royal Family.  If one had to choose whom was more deserving of honours, which would it be - photo 1 or photo 2?

With a functioning arm I never have to choose just one, but if forced to do so it would be #2.

My reasoning is the whole tradition of saluting is anachronistic, so it is more appropriate as a form of showing respect to a member of the Royal Family. If the civilian world goes back to it being common to tip your hat to people as a way of showing respect I'dll be glad to revise my opinion.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #433 on: May 31, 2019, 07:11:38 »
I don't think something that is done, today, in every military of every nation can be considered anachronistic. And I don't think it came from the tip of the hat that was a British thing in its days - and not a French or continental European, or Asian , or Middle eastern thing at any time. The fact that the British justified the salute on that basis does not extend to everybody else who'd it. We must conclude that military saluting has a different basis therefore.

Offline Furniture

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #434 on: May 31, 2019, 07:44:46 »
I don't think something that is done, today, in every military of every nation can be considered anachronistic. And I don't think it came from the tip of the hat that was a British thing in its days - and not a French or continental European, or Asian , or Middle eastern thing at any time. The fact that the British justified the salute on that basis does not extend to everybody else who'd it. We must conclude that military saluting has a different basis therefore.

Military fashion and tradition comes from the culture that the military is from, or the culture/military that is being copied or imitated.

That other militaries around the world have adopted the western standard for saluting doesn't make it's origins any less "from another time".

That said I'm not against tradition or anachronishms (like some people consider the Monarchy), quite the opposite actually. I believe that traditional practices help keep us rooted to our history and culture, and I think our history and culture are well worth preserving and honouring.

Offline garb811

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #435 on: May 31, 2019, 12:15:16 »
Another take on the origin of the salute from The Met's website under their Misconceptions and Questions Relating to Armor:
Quote
...
Be that as it may, English seventeenth-century military records indicate that “the formal act of saluting was to be by removal of headdress.” By about 1745, an English regiment, the Coldstream Guards, appears to have amended this procedure, being instructed to “clap their hands to their hats and bow as they pass by.” This practice was quickly adopted by other English regiments and may have spread from England to America (via the War of Independence) and Continental Europe (through the Napoleonic Wars). Accordingly, the truth may lie somewhere in the middle, with the military salute originating as a gesture of respect and politeness parallel to the civilian custom of raising or tipping one’s hat, possibly in combination with the warrior’s custom of showing an unarmed right hand.
If you consider the salute to be anachronistic, I suppose you'd consider the entire idea of what we do for drill to be as well. After all, the entire point of drill was to train and execute tactical maneuvers on the battlefield, not for pomp and circumstance.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #436 on: May 31, 2019, 13:05:45 »
I'll just leave this right here ;)

"If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?" General George S. Patton
"Now listen to me you benighted muckers. We're going to teach you soldiering. The world's noblest profession. When we're done with you, you'll be able to slaughter your enemies like civilized men." Daniel Dravot

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #437 on: May 31, 2019, 15:41:24 »
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #438 on: June 12, 2019, 11:34:54 »
If one had to choose whom was more deserving of honours, which would it be - photo 1 or photo 2?

This is actually a tough choice.  Currently, the MND is also a commissioned officer, so he actually rates a salute on two counts.  Officers' commissions are generally for life (only one Canadian officer has actually been stripped of his commission) and so they carry it into retirement. 
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Drallib

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #439 on: January 30, 2020, 06:59:00 »
I've been searching for this answer for a while now and have asked many people with different answers.

Do you salute when you're not on base?

For example, you go out for lunch and in the parking lot of Tim Hortons or the grocery store, do you salute an officer? (both in uniform obviously)

Thanks.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." - John 15:13

Offline FSTO

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #440 on: January 30, 2020, 07:36:53 »
I've been searching for this answer for a while now and have asked many people with different answers.

Do you salute when you're not on base?

For example, you go out for lunch and in the parking lot of Tim Hortons or the grocery store, do you salute an officer? (both in uniform obviously)

Thanks.

Yes.

Offline 211RadOp

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #441 on: January 30, 2020, 08:15:54 »
I've been searching for this answer for a while now and have asked many people with different answers.

Do you salute when you're not on base?

For example, you go out for lunch and in the parking lot of Tim Hortons or the grocery store, do you salute an officer? (both in uniform obviously)

Thanks.
Easy to find, even using the wonderful DWAN search engine.

From Chapter 1 Section 2 of the Manual of Drill and Cerimonial:

Quote
INDIVIDUAL
9. Officers shall salute all officers of higher rank and shall return all compliments paid them. Senior officers
receiving compliments from marching troops on a ceremonial parade shall hold the salute as each individual
component passes directly by in review.
10. Non-commissioned members shall salute all commissioned officers.

<snip>

CIVILIAN DRESS
16. Appropriate compliments shall be paid when recognizing an officer dressed in civilian clothing.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/ins-201/dhh_manual_drill_cermonial.pdf
"It's time to clean up this mess & stop looking like a banana republic!" - Donald Trump Jr in reference to "voter fraud" 2020

Offline Drallib

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #442 on: January 30, 2020, 08:54:34 »
Easy to find, even using the wonderful DWAN search engine.

From Chapter 1 Section 2 of the Manual of Drill and Cerimonial:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/ins-201/dhh_manual_drill_cermonial.pdf

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't read anything about being out in the public. Public buildings, turn your head and offer a polite greeting. Edit: But outside in a public setting it doesn't say whether to offer just a polite greeting or to salute the officer.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." - John 15:13

Offline 211RadOp

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #443 on: January 30, 2020, 08:59:47 »
Para 10. Non-commissioned members shall salute all commissioned officers.

There is no distinction on public/private/military property.
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Offline Kyle Burrows

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #444 on: January 30, 2020, 10:03:23 »
Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't read anything about being out in the public. Public buildings, turn your head and offer a polite greeting. Edit: But outside in a public setting it doesn't say whether to offer just a polite greeting or to salute the officer.


You aren't missing it - the expectation does not change based on venue so it doesn't need to be stated. 
Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility.
-- February 1955 Combat Forces Journal


Offline Drallib

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #445 on: January 30, 2020, 10:10:09 »
You aren't missing it - the expectation does not change based on venue so it doesn't need to be stated.

Thanks :)
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." - John 15:13

Offline Colin P

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #446 on: January 30, 2020, 12:11:40 »
For someone who is very fond of being saluted, it's always good to have a large number of recruits walk by them individually as the officer is talking to his girlfriend and have the recruits salute him, forcing him to turn and return the salute, after about 30 times in a row he was getting tired of being saluted and retreated to an office. We noted that the glamour had faded from the idea after that. I saluted an Air Force officer at CFB Trenton who didn't bother to return the salute which he clearly saw. The General behind him did see it and stopped us both and schooled the Officer on the importance of returning the salute, making him practice it. The General thanked me for my time in the instruction. I don't think the Officer was as happy.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 13:34:44 by Colin P »

Offline 211RadOp

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #447 on: January 30, 2020, 13:10:36 »
Walking to work when I was at 101, I saluted an Air Force Maj one day.  He was carrying a briefcase and talking on his cell phone.  It was funny watching him trying to juggle everything to return it.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
« Reply #448 on: January 30, 2020, 13:12:38 »
For someone who is very fond of being saluted, it's always good to have a large number of recruits walk by them individually as the officer is talking to his girlfriend and have the recruits salute him, forcing him to turn and return the salute, after about 30 times in a row he was getting tired of being saluted and retreated to an office. We noted that the glamour had faded from the idea after that. I saluted an Air Force officer at CFB Trenton who didn't bother to return the salute which he clearly saw. The General behind him did see it and stopped up both and schooled the Officer on the importance of returning the salute, making him practice it. The General thanked me for my time in the instruction. I don't think the Officer was as happy.

He pulled a 'Chesty Puller' :)

"Puller insisted upon good equipment and discipline; once he came upon a second lieutenant who had ordered an enlisted man to salute him 100 times for missing a salute. Puller told the lieutenant, "You were absolutely correct in making him salute you 100 times, Lieutenant, but you know that an officer must return every salute he receives. Now return them all, and I will keep count."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesty_Puller
"Now listen to me you benighted muckers. We're going to teach you soldiering. The world's noblest profession. When we're done with you, you'll be able to slaughter your enemies like civilized men." Daniel Dravot