Author Topic: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case  (Read 62337 times)

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Offline Haggis

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #400 on: March 05, 2019, 08:29:30 »
My expectation is that both Butts and Wernick will come out swinging tomorrow.  No apologies, no contrition.  Straight on the offensive towards JWR and possibly even Phillipot.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #401 on: March 05, 2019, 08:32:59 »
Interesting that the two who resigned are both members of regulated professions with standards for ethical behaviour.

But according to this previous post, Finance Minister Morneau never mentioned ethics, merely that "Jane Philpott is a close personal friend of Jody Wilson-Raybould."  You know how girls all go to the washroom in packs... same thing here.  Not even a hint of condescension in that.

    :pop:


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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #402 on: March 05, 2019, 08:37:11 »
My expectation is that both Butts and Wernick will come out swinging tomorrow.  No apologies, no contrition.  Straight on the offensive towards JWR and possibly even Phillipot.

This may have the opposite effect of what's desired.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #403 on: March 05, 2019, 08:47:22 »
This may have the opposite effect of what's desired.

I never said it would work!  ;D
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Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #404 on: March 05, 2019, 11:05:43 »
My guess and it is only that, is that DPA is a sort of plea bargain mechanism.  So they can still be charged for something and prosecuted but the sentencing and plea bargain arrangement is what is different.

Imagine someone murdered a family at the time we had the death penalty.  That someone could be charged for a crime committed at that time.  But the sentence and plea bargain rules would be today's standard not the standard that applied back then no?

I’ve never seen the system work that way... for example, we charged someone with child pornography offences in 2016 for offences that took place prior to the change and addition of mandatory minimum sentencing. Even though the charges, trial and verdict were all within the new sentencing regime, the old sentencing regime (from the time of the offence) was used.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #405 on: March 05, 2019, 11:24:55 »
The Prime Minister is returning to Ottawa.  Story here.
So, there I was....

Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #406 on: March 05, 2019, 11:38:13 »
I’ve never seen the system work that way... for example, we charged someone with child pornography offences in 2016 for offences that took place prior to the change and addition of mandatory minimum sentencing. Even though the charges, trial and verdict were all within the new sentencing regime, the old sentencing regime (from the time of the offence) was used.

Well I'll defer to someone who knows.  I doubt we would sentence anyone to death for crimes committed when we still had the death penalty on the books.  Seems odd.   
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Online YZT580

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #407 on: March 05, 2019, 12:02:25 »
I give Trudeau one more week to get things under control.  If he is unable to stop the blood-letting the folks who pull the strings will engineer a spontaneous uprising of those parliamentarians who are members of the liberal party.  In turn they will select an alternative leader and then inform the governor-general that Trudeau has lost the support of parliament and a new leader will take over.

Offline MilEME09

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #408 on: March 05, 2019, 12:04:36 »
I give Trudeau one more week to get things under control.  If he is unable to stop the blood-letting the folks who pull the strings will engineer a spontaneous uprising of those parliamentarians who are members of the liberal party.  In turn they will select an alternative leader and then inform the governor-general that Trudeau has lost the support of parliament and a new leader will take over.

Or enough liberal MPs break ranks of this gets worse, non-confidence happens and the government falls.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #409 on: March 05, 2019, 12:44:30 »
Or enough liberal MPs break ranks of this gets worse, non-confidence happens and the government falls.
Next confidence votes aren't all that far away ...  :whistle:

Right now, I'm betting there's nowhere near enough Team Red MP's willing to change sides to vote 'er down on a whipped vote (which budget votes are).  Mind you, one interesting question coming to mind is:  how much sanction can a party leader mete out if they're no longer PM after a shoulda-been-whipped-but-didn't-end-up-whipped confidence vote?

But like someone said earlier ...
Given the current rate of change, we must amend "A week is a long time in politics" to read "A day is a long time in politics."
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 14:41:08 by milnews.ca »
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #410 on: March 05, 2019, 12:54:52 »
I'm enjoying my popcorn and watching this issue, along with the Admiral's and other issues implode on the PM.

I had my predictions in 2015, but nothing this entertaining.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #411 on: March 05, 2019, 13:04:50 »
I give Trudeau one more week to get things under control.

What makes you say things are out of control?  "Sunny Ways", remember?  This is part of his master plan for another majority.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #412 on: March 05, 2019, 13:12:37 »
Scummy Ways I believe.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #413 on: March 05, 2019, 13:28:14 »
The LPC can get out of this but not without some scars.

Damage control and spin required.

1.  Get in front of this.  Admit to applying pressure but with good intentions to save jobs, apologise to JRW for what she went through and insist that nothing illegal happened but that there was a breach of ethical standard and that they will do better.

2. Welcome any police investigation should it happen.

3.  Pass a bill separating the AG and Justice minister role and tell everyone that this is being done to avoid mistakes.  Offer JWR her choice for which one she wants to do.  Maybe offer her the more independent AG role.  Heck get her to spearhead a LPC code of ethics and stick to it.

4. Get away from the Trudeau brand and develop a Liberal brand.  Trudeau's brand has taken too much of a hit.

Hope you've done enough to squeak out a win in the fall. 

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Offline Haggis

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #414 on: March 05, 2019, 14:11:03 »
1.  Get in front of this.  Admit to applying pressure but with good intentions to save jobs, apologize to JWR for what she went through and insist that nothing illegal happened but that there was a breach of ethical standard and that they will do better.

This might be where Butts and Wernick will head tomorrow.

2. Welcome any police investigation should it happen.
  And hope it's not concluded before election day.

3.  Pass a bill separating the AG and Justice minister role and tell everyone that this is being done to avoid mistakes.  Offer JWR her choice for which one she wants to do.  Maybe offer her the more independent AG role.  Heck get her to spearhead a LPC code of ethics and stick to it.
  An idea which will be pointed out
 to have been plagiarized from the Conservatives of Stephen Harper?  Not a chance!

4. Get away from the Trudeau brand and develop a Liberal brand.  Trudeau's brand has taken too much of a hit.
The personality politics cult won't allow this.  The Trudeau brand won the last election.  Nice socks and great hair, remember?

Hope you've done enough to squeak out a win in the fall.
  I think the best they can hope for now is a minority.  Not a win, really, but buys them four years to rebuild without having to accomplish anything governmentally.
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Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #415 on: March 05, 2019, 14:24:31 »
This might be where Butts and Wernick will head tomorrow.
  And hope it's not concluded before election day.
  An idea which will be pointed out
 to have been plagiarized from the Conservatives of Stephen Harper?  Not a chance!
 The personality politics cult won't allow this.  The Trudeau brand won the last election.  Nice socks and great hair, remember?
  I think the best they can hope for now is a minority.  Not a win, really, but buys them four years to rebuild without having to accomplish anything governmentally.

Not saying they will do all of that.

As far as a police investigation they could take a chance that the RCMP isn't even going to investigate. But just saying you welcome it is about optics.

Personality politics only works if the brand works.  The band is broken and likely beyond repair.  You get more votes by sending JWR in contested ridings as she is a better face of the party.  The CPC tried to rely on the Harper brand and it failed them in the end. 

Plagiarising is a common thing in politics.  They can just claim the CPC couldn't get it done so they did and popint to other Westminster nations that have done the same.  It wasn't a CPC idea in the first place.

But I think they will screw it up anyways and things might go from worse to worser.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #416 on: March 05, 2019, 14:30:56 »
The LPC can get out of this but not without some scars.

Damage control and spin required.

1.  Get in front of this.  Admit to applying pressure but with good intentions to save jobs, apologise to JRW for what she went through and insist that nothing illegal happened but that there was a breach of ethical standard and that they will do better.

2. Welcome any police investigation should it happen.

3.  Pass a bill separating the AG and Justice minister role and tell everyone that this is being done to avoid mistakes.  Offer JWR her choice for which one she wants to do.  Maybe offer her the more independent AG role.  Heck get her to spearhead a LPC code of ethics and stick to it.

4. Get away from the Trudeau brand and develop a Liberal brand.  Trudeau's brand has taken too much of a hit.

Hope you've done enough to squeak out a win in the fall.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending what you're looking for, the trudeau brand is the liberal brand. The party is likely to wear this for much longer than they had to suffer under his dad's former image. The PM is a Lauretien Elite and is marking the rest of the elites with his image. They've always managed to stay hidden in plain sight while operating the country for their own benefit. Problems and favoritism, with Bombardier and SNC among them. People are seeing things clearer with things like the PMs Trust Fund people also on the board of SNC. The amount of previous Quebec PMs and other politicians now on the payroll of Power Corp and it's subsidiaries is an eye opener for anyone that wants to take a shot of unraveling Power Corps sphere of influence. 

People are starting to see the tangled web that the LE's have spun, how they've taken advantage of everyday Canadians as a matter of course.

The face of the Laurentien Elites and the grit party is Trudeau and he is doing serious damage to the brand.

Bob Rae's hamfisted attempt at premiership of Ontario has followed the provincial NDP like an albatross standing on the millstone around their neck.

Trudeau and the liberals are about to suffer the same fate. The grits will be know as the party of trudeau and hold the jaundiced eye of the electorate for a long, long time.

I almost expect Bernier to have a better showing than the grits and I have no time for him either.

Just me spitballin'
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What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #417 on: March 05, 2019, 14:57:38 »
That's danger of attaching a personality to a party.  They may well be too entrenched now to get away but I can't see how staying with the brand will help unless they seriously reinvent JT.  I don't see that happening as he is a bit 2 dimensional for that.
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Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #418 on: March 05, 2019, 15:00:32 »
... Bob Rae's hamfisted attempt at premiership of Ontario has followed the provincial NDP like an albatross standing on the millstone around their neck.  Trudeau and the liberals are about to suffer the same fate. The grits will be know as the party of trudeau and hold the jaundiced eye of the electorate for a long, long time ...
Don't know if it'll be as bad, but for sure in the same direction.

On that, the following, with some key caveats:  1)  Only one poll.  2)  LONG time to election day.  3)  We've seen polls predict less than ideally in the past.  All that said, another tile in the info-mosaic via Ipsos ...
Quote
Liberals (31%, -3) Shed Support as Tories (40%, +4) Capitalize in Wake of Jody Wilson-Raybould Testimony

Canadians Siding Decidedly with Wilson-Raybould (67%) over Trudeau (33%); Majority (62%) Agrees Prime Minister Has Lost Moral Authority to Govern

The Liberals are continuing to shed vote support in the wake of the SNC-Lavalin affair and the testimony of former Attorney General and Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould to the House of Commons Justice Committee.

If an election were held tomorrow, the Liberals under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau would receive 31% of the decided popular vote, down 3 points since Ipsos’ most recent poll two weeks ago. The Conservatives under Andrew Scheer would receive 40% of the vote, up 4 points. Jagmeet Singh’s NDP would receive 20% of the popular vote (up 3 points), while the Bloc would receive 4% of the vote nationally (19% in Quebec), down 2 points. Other parties, including the Green Party, would receive 5% of the vote (down 2 points). Overall, two in ten Canadians say they are undecided (9%) or simply would not consider voting (8%).

(...)

Given what they’ve heard to date, 67% of Canadians say they believe Jody Wilson-Raybould more, while 33% say they believe Prime Minister Justin Trudeau more. Even one in three (33%) Liberal voters say they believe the former Attorney General more than the Prime Minister. Moreover, three quarters (75%) of Canadians agree (28% strongly/47% somewhat) that they believe there was inappropriate political interference placed on Jody Wilson-Raybould by senior people in government, including 56% of Liberal voters ...
More @ Ipsos's info-machine here.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 14:41:53 by milnews.ca »
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #419 on: March 05, 2019, 15:09:00 »
Oh they'll want to change it, I'm sure. He just can't be reinvented though. Too far gone.

The problem is not what they want or or what they do.

It is the Canadian public that won't let them change the channel.

I'm seeing hate and venom for him and the grits unlike I've seen before. Even with his old man. 20 and 30 somethings are voicing their disgust for him and they'll be voting for another 50 years. He is fast becoming a pariah.
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #420 on: March 05, 2019, 15:37:03 »
Oh they'll want to change it, I'm sure. He just can't be reinvented though. Too far gone.

The problem is not what they want or or what they do.

It is the Canadian public that won't let them change the channel.

I'm seeing hate and venom for him and the grits unlike I've seen before. Even with his old man. 20 and 30 somethings are voicing their disgust for him and they'll be voting for another 50 years. He is fast becoming a pariah.

Look at us agreeing.

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« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 15:44:00 by Remius »
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #421 on: March 05, 2019, 15:39:34 »
Oh they'll want to change it, I'm sure. He just can't be reinvented though. Too far gone.

The problem is not what they want or or what they do.

It is the Canadian public that won't let them change the channel.

I'm seeing hate and venom for him and the grits unlike I've seen before. Even with his old man. 20 and 30 somethings are voicing their disgust for him and they'll be voting for another 50 years. He is fast becoming a pariah.

He got in by playing on people's hope for something better.  Aside from the cult of personality, I think a lot of people were genuinely optimistic that his 'sunny ways' pitch was going to be a real change. He hasn't done anything particularly out of the realm of the low bar we set for our politicians, but his problem is he got in on a virtue card.

You can do a lot of things, but dashing people's hope is not something you can recover from; that inspires straight up hate.

The only thing I could see that would get people back onside would be a large resignation/firing of the politicians/PS involved, Trudeau stepping down, and total shakeup of the way the PMO runs things.  Can't see that happening, but personally I'd probably consider voting liberal if JWR were at the helm. I don't have any dedicated party support, but found her believable and was refreshing to see someone with integrity.

Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #422 on: March 05, 2019, 15:42:11 »
Trudeau might be changing his tune on the whole affair.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-raybould-philpott-snc-lavalin-1.5043763

One of the steps I stated he might need to do.  Might not be enough but we'll see. Probably should have done that to begin with.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #423 on: March 05, 2019, 15:58:45 »
... One of the steps I stated he might need to do.  Might not be enough but we'll see. Probably should have done that to begin with.
Especially this bit from the CBC piece:  "show some ownership over the actions of his staff and officials".

We'll see - thanks for that link.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #424 on: March 05, 2019, 16:03:39 »
Enter Butts and Wernick to accept all blame, the PM didn't know the scope to which they pressured, how dare they... the Deputy AG testifies it wasn't criminal but awfully inappropriate, a few people go under the forced resignation bus, but no criminal charges.  Could this happen?  Is this enough to change the channel in time?