Author Topic: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system  (Read 1157 times)

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Offline Baden Guy

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Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« on: November 05, 2019, 08:12:07 »
Air-traffic control changes in U.S., Europe may force Ottawa to buy new executive jets
CTV National News: The state of Canada's VIP jets
 
Two of the four planes used for VIP travel will soon face restrictions on where they can fly. Glen McGregor has the exclusive details

OTTAWA -- The federal government could be forced to buy new executive jets to transport the prime minister and other VIPs because of changes to air-traffic control rules in the U.S. and Europe.

Two of the four Challenger jets currently used by the Canadian Forces for executive transport lack the equipment needed to comply with the new ADS-B system, which replaces radar-based air-traffic control with the transmission of GPS-based data.

That will curtail the aircraft's ability to fly in the U.S. and Europe beginning next year.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/air-traffic-control-changes-in-u-s-europe-may-force-ottawa-to-buy-new-executive-jets-1.4668608

Don't know why I find this whole story amusing.   :D

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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2019, 08:31:58 »
Don't know why I find this whole story amusing.   :D
Then you'll love the follow-on.  :pop:

Because of the bad optics of the government buying itself a new fleet of VIP aircraft to the detriment of other military procurement debacles, the PMO will announce that ship-building and fighter acquisition programs will be kick-started....

However, in order to continue supporting the Liberals, the Green party insists that the warships use environmentally friendly sails for propulsion, and various regional consortiums get protection of their canvas and cable industries as we build squadrons of Sopwith Camels.

         :highjack:   ;)

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2019, 08:48:28 »
This is symptomatic of the Canadian problem that we refuse to treat our head of government as a position worthy of respect.  Official residence drafty, filled with asbestos and mold because we refuse to maintain it properly or replace it?  Check.  Old aircraft that can't legally fly in most airspace within a few months? Check.

But god forbid we invest in modern equipment to support them in their work.  No, don't buy modern aircraft designed and assembled in Canada; no, let's shop craigslist for used instead.
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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2019, 13:14:18 »
The first thing I thought of was this:

Urgent' renovations needed on 24 Sussex, but Harper won't move out
Stephen Harper is at odds with the Crown corporation that manages the prime minister’s official residence, saying there are no plans to renovate 24 Sussex Drive even as the National Capital Commission asserts anew the need for more than $10-million in repairs deemed “urgent” four years ago.

The commission, which manages the three-storey, 10,850 square-foot, 34-room residence, said this week that “extensive” work is now required on the 143-year-old building — repairs that will “require the occupant to vacate the premises” for more than a year.

Spokesperson Kathryn Keyes could not confirm on Thursday whether the commission has recently been in talks with the prime minister’s staff, but said discussions with his office have been ongoing since 2008, when Mr. Harper first opted not to move out for renovations. Apparently at loggerheads, the prime minister’s office said this week that there are “no renovations planned for the residence.”

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/urgent-renovations-needed-on-24-sussex-but-harper-wont-move-out

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2019, 14:28:36 »
Before this devolves into a thread about political considerations concerning "leaders expenses", the first question that popped into my head was "are the Challengers the only military aircraft affected or do all the other fleets have ADS-B". 

Or is the CF moving along at the same snail pace that NAVCAN expects of them?  (from an Aug 2018 study)

http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and-services/Study%20Recommendations/Study%20Final%20Report%20-%20ADS-B-EN.pdf
Quote
Issue #11 - Military Exemptions & Security

Some Department of National Defence (DND) aircraft and some foreign military aircraft will be unable to equip to meet the ADS-B Out mandate and there are concerns that the open broadcast of ADS-B Out data can cause unacceptable operational security risks to DND’s execution of certain missions. NAV CANADA must accommodate these aircraft in their vital and unique operations.

Response

NAV CANADA acknowledges that not all DND aircraft will be equipped to meet the performance mandate, either before or after January 1, 2021, as it is not economically viable to equip DND aircraft that are facing imminent retirement. Additionally, cost, budget, and depot schedule constraints make it prohibitive to equip all DND aircraft in time for the proposed mandate. DND has a mature equipage plan in place for their fleet and some aircraft will be suitably equipped in advance of the proposed compliance date.

Regardless, both parties recognize that accommodations to the mandate will be necessary for non-equipped state aircraft. To ensure that the air navigation system meets Canadian national defence needs, NAV CANADA will partner with DND to develop procedures to minimize or, where possible, eliminate negative impact on DND and foreign state aircraft operations due to lack of ADS-B Out equipage, while ensuring safety.

Additionally, NAV CANADA acknowledges that the open broadcast of ADS-B Out data can cause unacceptable operational security risks to DND’s execution of certain missions. DND aircraft with mission requirements that will not align with the broadcast nature of ADS-B Out, will either not be equipped or will, at times, suppress ADS-B Out data. DND and NAV CANADA agree to research and develop mutually acceptable solutions and procedures, which will accommodate their aircraft when not broadcasting ADS-B Out data and that will lower operational security risks to levels deemed acceptable by DND.

Regarding foreign state aircraft operating in Canada, ADS-B Out performance requirements will be published in the AIP. If foreign aircraft cannot meet the mandate, they will be required to request an exemption when submitting their overflight request to Global Affairs Canada (GAC). Any requests from military aircraft are forward to DND 1 Canadian Air Division for review prior to approval by GAC. 27

As is current practice, DND will work with NAV CANADA to ensure that operators of foreign State aircraft in Canadian airspace are informed of the mandate performance requirements. Military aircraft (Canadian and Foreign) will be eligible for an exemption. NAV CANADA units will know an aircraft’s ADS-B Out status based on the equipment codes on their ICAO flight plan and/or through notification by DND.

NAV CANADA ATC currently has procedures for and experience in accommodating aircraft that do not meet performance requirements related to RVSM or transponder mandatory airspace. These procedures are adaptable to the requirements of an ADS-B mandate.

But then, the Canadian military isn't the only one that won't meet the Jan 2020 deadline to have aircraft compliant for US airspace.  But then, it's not our airspace.

https://www.mro-network.com/avionics-instruments/one-fifth-us-military-aircraft-will-be-ads-b-equipped
Quote
One-Fifth of U.S. Military Aircraft Will be ADS-B Equipped

Roughly one-fifth of military aircraft operated by the U.S. Defense Department will be equipped for automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast Out by the FAA’s January 2020 compliance date.

Bill Carey | Aug 27, 2019

Roughly one-fifth of military aircraft operated by the U.S. Defense Department will be equipped for automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) Out by the FAA’s January 2020 compliance date, according to numbers released by the Pentagon.

The U.S. Air Force, the lead service overseeing implementation, reports that 2,936 manned aircraft will be fitted to signal their position to ground controllers by ADS-B Out as of Jan. 1. The number represents 21.5% of the 13,596 aircraft operated by the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Special Operations Command, according to Aviation Week’s Military Fleet Discovery Tool.

The leading category of ADS-B-equipped aircraft will be helicopters (1,129), followed by air mobility and transport aircraft (923), command and control/intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft (259) and trainers (625), the Air Force said.

As of the regulation’s compliance date, aircraft flying in most U.S. controlled airspace must be equipped to broadcast their GPS-derived position and other information at once per second to the FAA’s nationwide network of ground ratio stations—the function called ADS-B Out. To interact with the ground network, higher-flying aircraft require DO-260B standard Version 2 ADS-B Out systems, including Mode S 1090 MHz Extended Squitter transponder and GPS Wide Area Augmentation System-capable position sensor.
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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 00:12:44 »
Most legacy fleets are not ADS-B Out equipped.   We will request state aircraft exemptions when/if flying in CONUS and Alaskan airspace.
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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 15:03:39 »
Am I missing something here?

Seems like the ADS-B transponder systems for aircraft are relatively small and inexpensive electronic modules which are being retrofitted into tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands of aircraft) under a program that started several years back.

Are we really saying that we can't upgrade the Challengers with this gear even if they are old

????

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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2019, 15:04:26 »
Am I missing something here?

Seems like the ADS-B transponder systems for aircraft are relatively small and inexpensive electronic modules which are being retrofitted into tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands of aircraft) under a program that started several years back.

Are we really saying that we can't upgrade the Challengers with this gear even if they are old

????

Yes.  And the other fleets that don't have them (which I think are most of them).
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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2019, 15:20:04 »
There are other obsolesence issues with numerous aircraft fleets as well; ADS-B is just the closest issue.  Plus integration costs - believe it or not, VVIP aircraft may have a variety of additional systems installed making integration more challenging and drive up your non-recurring engineering (NRE).

As noted, there are plans to do the integration into other aircraft.  But if you're already planning other life extension projects for those fleets, it may make sense to defer until you've got that fleet into the life extension line.  So, for example, if you're moving a fleet from analog to digital cockpit, do the integration at the same time because then you're only doing the NRE once.

Or, if you've got fleets that you have kept common and not Canadianized the heck out of, do the modernization as part of that larger user community and save the NRE costs.

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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2019, 20:01:33 »
This is not a surprise issue.  Eurocontrol  was talking about a 2020 implementation date a decade ago and it is not a terribly complicated piece of kit but it does provide a legitimate sounding excuse to upgrade or replace your aircraft which is what is happening in many fleets.  For the US., the problem is one of sheer numbers.  When you multiply by the fleet size you have a huge expense that perhaps might better be mitigated by delegating certain aircraft only to be equipped and relegating the rest to domestic flights where they can write their own rules.  For us, if they weren't planning on replacing the aircraft they should have ordered 3 years ago and got in line

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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #10 on: Today at 10:03:14 »
Who cares if ADS-B isn't that expensive to retrofit, what important is that now the public has the narrative that the plane is too old to be used. Now you have a reason to replace it that the public will empathize with and understand in a 30sec news piece.

Simple solution, just rush the Tanker replacement project and tack on a VIP role, buy 8+ or so and call it a day.

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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #11 on: Today at 10:45:33 »
What would the options for aircraft and deck configurations be? Leasing or buying the fleet?

Is there a proper military transport role for the Global Express vis a only a VIP shuttle role?


Possible Boeing Options: 737 800 ERX - Poseidon, Clipper, Business Jet, Cargo, (maybe a Tanker?).
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system
« Reply #12 on: Today at 11:18:37 »
Current a/c are used for VIP / VVIP transport; can be configured for and are sometimes used for medevac; and are used for movement of small groups of personnel where time is of the essence and there may not be regular, reliable commercial options.

My understanding is that with four a/c the squadron is stressed but able to operate.  Remove two from the equation (or reduce the areas where they can operate), on the other hand...
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