Author Topic: Deindustrialization of Canada  (Read 5839 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Altair

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 49,144
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,082
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2019, 06:40:55 »
Well, today yes, but increasingly less. If you had a bunch of companies like Facebook, Google, Amazon, or other technology-based companies, whose services are being purchased by foreign countries, but that money is being paid into the domestic economy, then you really could get by without "making" anything. In this age you can sell lots of services to a foreign business, increasing the wealth in Canada.

It's really all about attracting wealth from outside the country, either through exports or having them somehow spend the money here. For example tourism, which is a horrible example of something to plan our economy around, but the point is tourists bring wealth from outside and leave it here, its the same net result as exporting goods.

With today's technological advances, you increasingly don't need to be offering a physical good (be it raw resources or value-added manufactured products) to bring wealth into the country.

Why would you tie population to the debt? I don't see how that is logical at all. Not many banks care more about how many employees you have than they do about your financial statements/performance.
I didn't tie it to population,  I ties it to GDP.

American GDP is around 19 trillion,  Canadian 1.6 trillion. Canadian GDP is approximately 8.5 percent of that of the USA.  Most just round up to 10.

8.5 percent of 804 billion,  68.3 billion.

So shave off 12 billion off my rough projection if you want,  the point still is a ridiculous amount of money spent giving the econony a sugar high during the boom times.
Someday I'll care about milpoints.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 447,095
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,656
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2019, 08:44:34 »
... So if a town loses a mill but has a tourism industry, then I would say the local service industry is self sustaining.

Not all service jobs are low paying starbucks jobs.
But most tourism jobs pay a fair bit less than most mill jobs that are downsized, so "self-sustaining" may only be true re: number of workers, not necessarily bucks pulled in.
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Online Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 151,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,800
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2019, 11:07:00 »
Tourism is a fickle mistress, I used to travel all through BC and the Yukon and saw a lot of shuttered and abandoned Tourist related businesses. It depends a lot on currency exchange, fuel costs, political and social interference and what the current tourist fad is.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 447,095
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,656
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2019, 11:10:37 »
Tourism is a fickle mistress ...
True dat - more so than even predicting natural resources.
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 265,570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,526
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2019, 09:45:15 »
Tourism is a fickle mistress, I used to travel all through BC and the Yukon and saw a lot of shuttered and abandoned Tourist related businesses. It depends a lot on currency exchange, fuel costs, political and social interference and what the current tourist fad is.

Downtown Victoria is exactly the same, coincidentally.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline QV

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 13,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 421
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2019, 10:43:22 »
Tourists need a surplus of disposable income to tour around.  If there are significant job losses, a lack of confidence in the economy, and so on, there will be less tourists touring, or tourists touring less.  Granted many tourists are foreigners who are not affected, but not all.  I think when something bad happens to a large and important industry, for instance a country's resource sector, the follow on effects impact negatively almost everywhere else.             

Offline Brad Sallows

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 76,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,005
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2019, 12:39:57 »
The recent carping about equalization highlighted the fact that AB's economy is still generally pretty healthy and AB's federal taxpayers are still weighty contributors.  A few months back there was a round of smug finger-pointing in BC that called out AB for not have a diverse enough economy.  Tourism was once #5 on the list taught to schoolchildren (forestry, mining, fishing, farming, tourism, if memory serves) in BC; now I suppose it is #1 or maybe #2.  BC might be more at risk than AB.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline quadrapiper

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 11,340
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 344
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2019, 19:55:39 »
BC might be more at risk than AB.
Something else that comes to mind is a major loss of industrial-friendly land: Victoria Harbour, for example, has seen a major shift from industrial waterfront to residential/tourist/etc. development. Would it make sense to establish an "industrial land reserve" for chunks of land with good transport links (water, rail, highway, etc.), as much of the best industrial land is also prime high-end residential territory?

Offline ModlrMike

    : Riding time again... woohooo!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 219,679
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,913
    • Canadian Association of Physician Assistants
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2019, 22:27:52 »
Something else that comes to mind is a major loss of industrial-friendly land: Victoria Harbour, for example, has seen a major shift from industrial waterfront to residential/tourist/etc. development. Would it make sense to establish an "industrial land reserve" for chunks of land with good transport links (water, rail, highway, etc.), as much of the best industrial land is also prime high-end residential territory?

I imagine it's more a question of tax revenue. The rates for multi-family dwellings is probably higher than for low-rise industrial buildings.
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
Zero tolerance is the politics of the lazy. All it requires is that you do nothing and ban everything.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 265,570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,526
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2019, 22:42:25 »
I imagine it's more a question of tax revenue. The rates for multi-family dwellings is probably higher than for low-rise industrial buildings.

Not really. Victoria harbour's industrial decline mirrors others, and the tax base declines apace....
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Online Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 151,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,800
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2019, 12:50:51 »
Many of the municipal council members get their campaign funds from developers, who see industrial lands as resource for making themselves rich. I got a taste of the pressure that local governments get from developers when you have to curtail their ideas, they needed a federal permit to construct and assumed they could bulldoze their way through, very unhappy when they could not intimidate us. (benefits of having a Minister from another Province than BC)   

Offline Brad Sallows

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 76,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,005
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2019, 13:13:54 »
>Would it make sense to establish an "industrial land reserve" for chunks of land with good transport links (water, rail, highway, etc.), as much of the best industrial land is also prime high-end residential territory?

In most cases, probably not.  Let market forces "decide".  The problem isn't setting land aside in perpetuity; the problem is allowing industry to relocate when gentrification pushes it out.  Given permission to build, commercial and industrial enterprises will move "further out" to cheaper land and build the rail lines and roads they need.  A displacement gives opponents of the enterprise a chance to kill it for good: they litigate to prevent it from landing anywhere else.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Online Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 200,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,092
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2019, 13:31:18 »
Something else that comes to mind is a major loss of industrial-friendly land: Victoria Harbour, for example, has seen a major shift from industrial waterfront to residential/tourist/etc. development. Would it make sense to establish an "industrial land reserve" for chunks of land with good transport links (water, rail, highway, etc.), as much of the best industrial land is also prime high-end residential territory?

It's not as if this kind of thing happens without some forethought, not always good forethought but forethought nonetheless.

https://www.victoria.ca/assets/Departments/Planning~Development/Development~Services/Documents/neighbourhoods-victoria-harbour-plan.pdf
VICTORIA HARBOUR PLAN

CITY OF VICTORIA
Adopted by Victoria City Council November 1, 2001
Revised August 30, 2012
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 210,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,846
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2019, 15:08:49 »
Problem not unique.

It is endemic around the US and also observed in Vancouver, Toronto and Halifax.  Not to mention any and all fishing villages.

People love the "colour" of a quaint fishing harbour.  But then they discover that fishermen come and go at all hours, make noises, shine bright lights, bump into things, make smells and leave stuff in the water.  Same thing for farmers.  And pulp mills.  And steel mills. etc.

It is not as if we are short of space for industrial areas.  We are short of common sense.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

Online Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 151,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,800
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2019, 15:50:00 »
We had some rich people build fancy homes next to the North Arm of the Fraser river, seems they didn't like a bunch of tugs moving 18 sections of logs up the river at 3am at about 2-3kts with their Jimmes screaming away. They called us at the Coast Guard base demanding we "close the river" at night. We just laughed at them.

Offline KJK

    is enjoying summer.

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 117,785
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 89
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2019, 17:52:57 »
We had some rich people build fancy homes next to the North Arm of the Fraser river, seems they didn't like a bunch of tugs moving 18 sections of logs up the river at 3am at about 2-3kts with their Jimmes screaming away. They called us at the Coast Guard base demanding we "close the river" at night. We just laughed at them.

This sounds similar to the people that build fancy houses next to a pig or dairy farm and them want the farmers to move their operation because of the smell or next to a shooting range and complain about the noise.

Offline quadrapiper

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 11,340
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 344
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2019, 22:57:13 »
It's not as if this kind of thing happens without some forethought, not always good forethought but forethought nonetheless.

https://www.victoria.ca/assets/Departments/Planning~Development/Development~Services/Documents/neighbourhoods-victoria-harbour-plan.pdf
VICTORIA HARBOUR PLAN

CITY OF VICTORIA
Adopted by Victoria City Council November 1, 2001
Revised August 30, 2012
"Forethought" generally applied by the level of government most easily swayed by two-bit residential developers.

Was thinking of something a) provincially imposed, and b) sufficiently hard to get land out of as to render it worthless except for industrial purposes. We need shipyards more than we need waterfront condos. On a related note, would be very happy to see the BC ALR made effectively impossible to remove land from, and expanded to include anything zoned or used for ag purposes. In both cases, residential and commercial/retail should be understood as something that can happen on land unsuited for growing, building, or transporting things. Again in both cases, it seems better that a chunk of land lie fallow than be filled with the sort of low-density, high-priced housing surrounding Point Hope yard in Victoria.

Offline QV

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 13,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 421
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2019, 12:45:17 »
MM, considering the US economy is on fire while Canada's is in a death spiral, I 'd say Bruce Monkhouse has a point. 

The US is reaping the rewards of a Trump presidency whether all of the citizens like it or not, and Canadians are losing jobs by the train load across the country.  Both results are directly related to the policies enacted by each respective government. 
 

The November jobs loss for Canada (worst loss since 2009) and the big jobs gained for the US are an indication of where each economy is. 
I stand by my original post.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6262739/canada-biggest-job-loss-financial-crisis/
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/06/us-nonfarm-payrolls-november-2019.html


Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 526,870
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,899
    • The job.
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2019, 09:14:16 »
The November jobs loss for Canada (worst loss since 2009) and the big jobs gained for the US are an indication of where each economy is. 

Opinions vary,

Canada's economy is not in a death spiral.  Not even close.  However there is a recession coming, including the US as the sugar high of Trump tax cuts run their course and the diet of trade wars begin.

Quote
Trillion-dollar deficits as far as the eye can see, and hardly a voice of caution to be heard
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/472480-trillion-dollar-deficits-as-far-as-the-eye-can-see-and-not-a-voice-of




+300 « Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 11:26:02 by mariomike »

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 210,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,846
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Deindustrialization of Canada
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2020, 03:15:09 »
The new government in Britain is promoting infrastructure.  It has a couple of multi-billion pound projects on the books. It appears to be letting one go ahead if it can find private funding.  The other, with public funding, appears as if it will be reallocated across a number of smaller, locally approved projects.

From The Telegraph

Quote
There is always some vested interest or life that will be wrecked by big infrastructure spending, and with byzantine planning laws, it doesn’t take much to delay, stall and eventually kill them off. Whether bold, ambitious and disruptive infrastructure projects are any longer ever really possible in an unruly advanced democracy such as our own is increasingly open to question.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/01/05/time-bite-bullet-cancel-hs2-wholly-back-northern-crossrail/

We aren't China.  We, like Britain, and the US, and Australia, are "an unruly, advanced democracy".  Guess we'll just have to get used to it.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019