Author Topic: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)  (Read 25161 times)

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Offline Lance Wiebe

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Re: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)
« Reply #200 on: June 17, 2020, 12:16:49 »
No. It was not a software “bias”. A bias signal built up in pitch channel in Flight Director mode of the Flight Control Computer. It is important to get the terms correct. And since the flight safety investigation is only at an early stage, I am certain a lot more factors will come to light in the coming months. Remember- accidents are complex events consisting of many discrete events that contribute.

I must admit, when the article mentioned it was a software bias, and not a software coding error, I was confused.
I have never heard of a software bias before I read the article.

I am happy to be corrected.
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Offline Ping Monkey

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Re: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)
« Reply #201 on: June 17, 2020, 13:35:28 »
Out of curiosity, does anybody know how similar the CH-148 and VH-92 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_VH-92) flight control systems are?  I presume they'd be close/identical.  (I also realize the mission suites are completely dissimilar.)


I was at NAS Patuxent River in March and was pleased to see one conducting flight testing at the time.  From a distance, I thought a Cyclone was on its way into the circuit.


Given the "high profile tasks" that the VH-92 will perform, I'd believe if this if this problem is common in both airframe types, Sikorsky would be getting some pressure by the testing community in Pax River to ensure any flight control issues discovered from this accident and during CH-148 testing are resolved for their fleet.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 14:02:29 by Ping Monkey »

Online Colin P

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Re: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)
« Reply #202 on: June 17, 2020, 13:39:14 »


And everything I just wrote seems like a "haze of technical jargon."  Does the public really need to understand all that?

Since the public is paying for it and providing the recruits to fly them in the future, then I would say yes. You can have the technical description with a brief summary. It's best to get one of your own to write the summary in layman's language, otherwise the media will get it wrong. They may still butcher for their own reasons, but anyone with further interest can then read the press release.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)
« Reply #203 on: June 17, 2020, 13:56:00 »
The problem, then, is reporters who admittedly know nothing about the subj then putting things into words they think people will understand that only ends up misleading them;  things like the words "software glitch".

Offline Baden Guy

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Re: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)
« Reply #204 on: June 18, 2020, 08:41:36 »
"Around the world, fly-by-wire helicopters are rare — as are the experts who understand them"

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Jun 18, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago"

A well-written article by Mr. Brewster with perhaps some new info for us non-rotary wing types.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclone-chopper-helicopter-crash-fly-by-wire-1.5616809







Offline dapaterson

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Re: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)
« Reply #205 on: June 18, 2020, 09:21:49 »
"Around the world, fly-by-wire helicopters are rare — as are the experts who understand them"

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Jun 18, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago"

A well-written article by Mr. Brewster with perhaps some new info for us non-rotary wing types.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclone-chopper-helicopter-crash-fly-by-wire-1.5616809

Expert cited: https://www.jurispro.com/expert/shawn-coyle-5640  He has 6500+ hours rotary wing flight; CAF pilot 1969-1984; test pilot; worked with Transport Canada as well.
Putting the *** in acerbic.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)
« Reply #206 on: June 18, 2020, 09:40:21 »
"Around the world, fly-by-wire helicopters are rare — as are the experts who understand them"

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Jun 18, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago"

A well-written article by Mr. Brewster with perhaps some new info for us non-rotary wing types.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclone-chopper-helicopter-crash-fly-by-wire-1.5616809

No, not well written. He has stated things in the article that are the precise opposite of what was said at the technical briefing. He has badly mis-stated how bias works and and how temporary deviations from a programmed flight path while in Flight Director mode work (in fact, temporary deviations have no real impact). He implies the pilots were flying via some sort of keyboard which is just ridiculous, when you think about it. He compares this accident to the 737Max accidents, when DFS specifically stated that he did not see a linkage.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 09:54:23 by SeaKingTacco »

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)
« Reply #207 on: June 18, 2020, 10:02:13 »
"Around the world, fly-by-wire helicopters are rare — as are the experts who understand them"

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Jun 18, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago"

A well-written article by Mr. Brewster with perhaps some new info for us non-rotary wing types.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclone-chopper-helicopter-crash-fly-by-wire-1.5616809

Generally on point, relying heavily on Shawn Coyle’s expertise (definitely a good thing), but still some inaccuracies and/or omissions:

1. Sikorsky does have previous FBW experience. It worked with Boeing jointly in the cancelled RAH-66 Comanche program. Boeing leveraged that FBW experience into the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey program and Bell subsequently applied that jointly with AgustaWestland to the AB-609 tilt rotor (that become the Leonardo AW-609) and it’s own V-280 Valor tilt rotor. It would have been good to see a link to what if any transfer of FBW had occurred internally at Sikorsky from the RAH-66 to the H-92/CH-148;

2.  For what Mr. Brewster was trying to achieve, which I believe was a critical look at the program, it seemed appropriate to look further back in the article than the Conservative government’s 2015 formal decision to retire the CH-124A Sea King, particularly the Liberal government’s 2004/2005 decision to proceed with the H-92 as a developmental aircraft than the EH-101 Merlin production aircraft; and

3.  A Flight Director capability is not just a FBW thing, the Chinook, Cormorant and Griffon all have flight directors as well that couple the flight controls to various degrees.  Various autopilot modes fundamentally aren’t new, even if the implementation/platform specifics are.

Regards
G2G
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 10:04:49 by Good2Golf »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)
« Reply #208 on: June 23, 2020, 23:26:28 »
Article Link

On June 18, 2020, the Office of the Chief Coroner for Ontario identified the remains of four of the six Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) members killed in the CH-148 Cyclone helicopter crash of April 29.

Remains of the following CAF members have been positively identified:

Captain Kevin Hagen, Pilot, originally from Nanaimo, British Columbia   :cdnsalute:

Captain Maxime Miron-Morin, Air Combat Systems Officer, originally from Bécancour, Quebec   :cdnsalute:

Sub-Lieutenant Matthew Pyke, Naval Warfare Officer, originally from Truro, Nova Scotia   :cdnsalute:

Master Corporal Matthew Cousins, Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator, originally from Guelph, Ontario   :cdnsalute:

Their remains were located and recovered during a combined CAF-United States Navy search and recovery operation conducted between May 25 and June 2. The families of all crew members lost in the accident have been notified.

Remains of Sub-Lieutenant Abbigail Cowbrough, a Marine Systems Engineering Officer originally from Toronto, Ontario, were previously identified shortly after the accident. Partial remains of Captain Brenden MacDonald, a Pilot originally from New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, were originally identified on May 9; no further remains were found in the recovery operations.

Over the coming days, our fallen who have now been positively identified, will be released to the families so they can be brought home. Ceremonial arrangements are being planned by the Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force in consultation with the families, and will be communicated when available.

** I realize this is already posted in Thoughts and Prayers;  details of the REPAT will be coming shortly.

Online Colin P

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Re: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)
« Reply #209 on: September 02, 2020, 16:06:21 »
Cyclone hot loads a training torpedo during Rimpac
https://twitter.com/RoyalCanNavy/status/1295678418562973697