Author Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS  (Read 494759 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Czech_pivo

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 4,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 252
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1825 on: May 22, 2019, 07:54:25 »
And then there is this:

There is another billion or two opportunity.

How is that even possible?
The latest article on the 6 AOPS states that the fleet with all be operational by 2025 - 6 yrs out to get 6 ships built and turned over to the RCN. Add another 2 AOPS (minus some work related to weaponry and C&C) and those ships will come online when? 2028? How can there be a 18-24 'gap' before the first steel is cut on the CSC?  Are they saying that the CSC programme won't cut steel until 2029 at the earliest - 10yrs out from now?  If that's the case its going to be near impossible to build 15 CSC's with the 60$ billion all-in money already allocated.


Offline Czech_pivo

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 4,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 252
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1826 on: May 22, 2019, 08:00:59 »
So a few off the cuff thoughts:

* How will SeaSpan react to Irving being given additional work for the CCG?  Under the National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS), CCG requirements were supposed to go to SeaSpan.

*  If NSS is reopened, with CCG builds going to Irving, does that mean other elements of the NSS can be reopened and reallocated as well?

* Which leads to the Davie question: if additional builds outside the original scope can be shoehorned in, why can't additional builders?

Since his Serene Highness is in BC at a RCN facility today to make the announcement, I'm going to go out on a limb and make the suggestion that His Highness announces a 3rd JSS for Seaspan.  There will still be no word on the Dief and its timelines as His Highness won't want to announce any funding of a ship named after a Conservative PM with the election being less than 6 months away.  Ultimately I see Davie getting the Dief to be built and it comes in bigger in size (and cost) than originally thought. 

Offline Underway

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 20,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 912
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1827 on: May 22, 2019, 09:08:29 »
How is that even possible?
The latest article on the 6 AOPS states that the fleet with all be operational by 2025 - 6 yrs out to get 6 ships built and turned over to the RCN. Add another 2 AOPS (minus some work related to weaponry and C&C) and those ships will come online when? 2028? How can there be a 18-24 'gap' before the first steel is cut on the CSC?  Are they saying that the CSC programme won't cut steel until 2029 at the earliest - 10yrs out from now?  If that's the case its going to be near impossible to build 15 CSC's with the 60$ billion all-in money already allocated.

Built, turned over and operational are different stages of getting a ship accepted.  HDW is currently built.  After builders trials she will be turned over to the RCN this summer (those two steps overlap a bit, as they can do engine trials while outfitting comms for example).  She'll be operational when all of her sea trials are done for all the things she's been designed for.  Despite this fact she might actually be on operations before then.  There needs to a shoot of the gun, helo ops sorted out (which could take months itself with all the wind tests, land and take off, finding different sea states, weather...), turning circles recorded, full shakedown of the crew to figure out how the ship works, replenishment as sea (assuming this is a thing) done, use all the boats for various tasks, sail in different sea states, test the stabilizers, test the bow thrusters, use all the cranes for various tasks, etc...  The builders may have turned her over but the RCN doesn't consider a ship operational until we figure out how she works first!

When the RCN got HMCS Halifax she was known as the Jetty Queen.  It wasn't until the 4-5th CPF was in the water that her issues as first of class were sorted out and she was finally operational.  First of class takes a long time because there is only one ship to do all of the things listed above.  When the Margaret Brooke comes out her acceptance trials will be faster...   I would also expect that the first two ships may be alongside to fix issues at some point.  A fire main problem or a pump replacement, or new wiring for some such equipment, fixed plumbing for the heads in #3 mess etc...  This extends their acceptance to "fully operational" status.

So don't be too distracted by the timeline.  The ships will probably be doing operations before they are fully operational, as you can do SAR zone work without having all of your equipment trialed or tested, as long as you meet Safe At Sea requirements for example.

As an aside JT really needs to call his new BFF Jacinda down in NZ with a sales pitch.  They have an ice capable OPV on their defence policy for a while.  Sell one to them cheap to offset costs for keeping our shipyard running.  I expect however they will just go to Korea and get an COTS OPV that costs nickels to our dollar.

Offline Underway

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 20,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 912
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1828 on: May 22, 2019, 09:25:04 »
How can there be a 18-24 'gap' before the first steel is cut on the CSC?

There's a wording issue with that article.  The 18-24 month gap is referring to the problem after the 6th ship was bought.  I read a separate article from Global and that was made clear.  That matches timelines much better, as it takes about  9-12 months to build an AOPV.

Offline Czech_pivo

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 4,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 252
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1829 on: May 22, 2019, 09:28:34 »
There's a wording issue with that article.  The 18-24 month gap is referring to the problem after the 6th ship was bought.  I read a separate article from Global and that was made clear.  That matches timelines much better, as it takes about  9-12 months to build an AOPV.

I certainly hope you're right.

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 59,044
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,080
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1830 on: May 22, 2019, 11:54:48 »
I certainly hope you're right.

I'm still hearing rumors of 1st steel cut for CSC in 2030... so... yea...
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 206,185
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,680
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1831 on: May 22, 2019, 12:31:15 »
I’m not against building the ships, originally it was planned for a build of  6-8, and I’m pretty sure the RCN would have preferred less AOPs trading off for more of pretty much anything else. For example, building 8 ships and transferring 2-4 to the CCG, and maybe taking some shipyard time to get the JSS built.
It’s the sneakiness of it all.

100% agreement.  Especially on the sneakiness of it all. 

Wouldn't it be nice if something approximating a plan, any plan, could be delivered?
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline JMCanada

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,860
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 59
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1832 on: May 22, 2019, 12:36:28 »
Someone proposed in this forum to use that gap (or future ones) to build new generation MCDVs, myself proposed two oceanic tug & rescue vessels (in line with under-production USN Navajo class). What worries me most is that within 3-4 years sight, by the time the 7th AOPS would start to be built, the shipbuilding industry the NSS is attaining is not capable to produce new (different) vessels. Not even a mk.2 AOPS?

Not even flexible enough as to share some work load from the west coast, at a reasonable trade off, like giving Seaspan to do some parts of the future CSC.

In an ever changing world, NSS is missing (IMHO) the flexibility to deal with key production issues as timeline gaps and changing the "production line" from one platform into another.

With this in mind I wonder if Irving would be capable to produce any variant out of the CSC, meaning an AAW or a C&C variants ... if required, and what would be the delay cost if doing so.

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 451,415
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,505
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1833 on: May 22, 2019, 13:32:25 »
https://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2019/05/22/prime-minister-announces-renewal-canadian-coast-guard-fleet

"To support future shipbuilding needs and attract more talent and good jobs to our communities, the Government of Canada intends to add a third Canadian shipyard as a partner under the NSS. The Government of Canada will move forward with a competitive process to select the third shipyard in the coming months."
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline FSTO

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 48,825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,758
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1834 on: May 22, 2019, 13:45:48 »
https://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2019/05/22/prime-minister-announces-renewal-canadian-coast-guard-fleet

"To support future shipbuilding needs and attract more talent and good jobs to our communities, the Government of Canada intends to add a third Canadian shipyard as a partner under the NSS. The Government of Canada will move forward with a competitive process to select the third shipyard in the coming months."

Gee, wonder who that would be?

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 451,415
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,505
+100
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline LoboCanada

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,020
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 131
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1836 on: May 22, 2019, 14:12:06 »
Looking at a CCG AOPS, seems logical they should have some. I don't know much about the current CCG ships, but wouldn't these be a big step-up in capability for the CCG?

Offline JMCanada

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,860
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 59
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1837 on: May 22, 2019, 14:54:16 »
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/projets-projects-eng.html#s18

Official NSS web already updated. ☺

Seems to have moved from
5 future Offshore Patrol Vessels (for the CCG), and
5 future Medium-Endurance Multi-Tasked Vessels (for the CCG).

to...
2 AOPs (built at Irving), plus
"up to 16 Multi-Purpose Vessels" (Seaspan).
 
 "These vessels will:
form the backbone of the Coast Guard large fleet throughout Canada and enable multiple mission deliveries such as:
 * being capable of icebreaking in moderate ice conditions and assist shipping and spring time flood control in the St. Lawrence waterway and Great Lakes region
 * providing offshore support for search and rescue, emergency response, and security and protection missions
 * maintaining Canada’s marine navigation system composed of approximately 17,000 aids to navigation".

Edited:
Seems like 3rd player will be given the maintenance/retrofit part and/or the "new class of smaller ships, the new Mid-Shore Multi-Mission Ship, which would complement the work of the large fleet in shallow areas and deliver mid-shore science activities", (from the PM's note) which is not (yet?) updated on the NSS web.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 15:11:35 by JMCanada »

Offline Czech_pivo

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 4,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 252
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1838 on: May 22, 2019, 15:00:42 »
Gee, wonder who that would be?

Finally - acknowledgment that the shear number of ships that are either clapped out, about to be clapped out or have already clapped out far exceeds the ability of the 2 existing NSS shipyards ability to ever replace them has occurred.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 112,639
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,031
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1839 on: May 22, 2019, 15:55:45 »
I was pondering this the other day:

If the ability to build our own ships is considered a strategic requirement and the ships being built are all government vessels, why has the government not simply bought ISS, Seaspan and Davie and created a private corporation equivalent to Naval Group in France where the Government of Canada maintains a controlling interest.

It certainly seems stupid to me to have three different companies in Canada fighting over our shipbuilding contracts which are pretty insignificant in comparison to other countries.

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 71,810
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,480
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1840 on: May 22, 2019, 16:15:08 »
Good story at Global News, whole thing seems to have been terribly rushed for election purposes and not thought out--with new Seaspan vessels to be delivered in some 2030s never never land:

Quote
Trudeau pledges billions for new coast guard fleet but mum on how he plans to circumvent delays

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is pledging billions of dollars towards revamping the fleet of the Canadian Coast Guard.

But when it comes to how that plan will actually work, the proposal may raise more questions than answers about whether it can overcome the consistent delays that have plagued the National Shipbuilding Strategy since its start, and some shipyard sources are already raising concerns about how long the plan will take.

In a press conference on Wednesday, Trudeau announced the government will spend $15.7 billion to order 18 new ships for the coast guard: two of those will be additional Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ships from Irving Shipyard in Halifax while the other 16 will be multi-purpose vessels from Seaspan in Vancouver.

The National Shipbuilding Strategy was launched by the former Conservative government as a means to stabilize the boom-bust cycle of shipbuilding in Canada.

The work allocated under the program has seen repeated delays from both Irving and Seaspan, though, prompting reporters to ask Trudeau how the government expects the shipyards to get the additional work done and what kind of time frame they will be facing.

Trudeau refused to answer, saying only that he is confident in the skills of the people who work in the shipyards.

“I have tremendous confidence in the men and women who work in our shipyards across the country and their capacity to deliver the excellent ships that our coast guard needs and, quite frankly, that Canadians need,” he said.

Federal officials also provided conflicting answers on how the timeline will work: for example, will the newly ordered ships go to the back of the line of commissioned work, or will they jump the queue?

One government official said it will be up to the shipyards themselves to determine how they can best tackle the workloads.

Another said time frames will be sorted out later.

READ MORE: Quebec’s Davie shipyard in line for contract to build 2 ferries

“Delivery dates for the new vessels will be identified as the project gets underway,” said Ashley Michnowski, press secretary to Public Services and Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough.

She also declined to provide specific details about how long it will take to allow a third shipyard to qualify for work under the National Shipbuilding Strategy.

Trudeau had also announced that a third firm will be allowed to go through a competitive process to qualify.

But there is only one other Canadian shipyard: Chantier Davie in Levis, Que.

That raises questions about why the firm would need to go through a competition if there is no one else for it to be competing against.

“The government of Canada is committed to ensuring a fair and transparent process to add a third Canadian shipyard as a strategic source of supply to the National Shipbuilding Strategy,” Michnowski wrote in an email. “Details about this process will be released in the coming weeks.”

One source in the shipbuilding industry told Global News it’s not only officials who appear to still be trying to figure out the details.

Chantier Davie, who Trudeau acknowledged in his press conference could find “opportunity” in the proposal, apparently had no advance knowledge it would be allowed to move through a new competitive process to try to get more shipbuilding work
[emphasis added].

The individual noted that while the renewal is welcome news, “there’s still gaping holes” in the plan around the timeline for the competitive process and when Irving and Seaspan will be expected to get the additional work done on top of the existing work they have on their plates.

Fred Boisvert, vice president of communications for Chantier Davie, also said the news is welcome but acknowledged while the firm has few details, it is confident.

“The third shipyard that they keep alluding to — there’s no one else but Davie,” he said.

“We just need to make sure this novel intention is being followed up by concrete action and that is having Davie helping the two other shipyards get their commitments delivered on time and on budget because for the last seven years, unfortunately, that hasn’t happened.”

Boisvert said he wants to see the competitive process wrapped up quickly given there is no other firm in a position to compete.

Under the terms of the National Shipbuilding Strategy, Irving is expected to do the bulk of the work building combat ships.

Seaspan, on the other hand, is expected to focus on smaller research vessels and the permanent replacement for the navy’s supply ships.

Talks between the government and Davie are slated to start tomorrow.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5302516/justin-trudea-canadian-coast-guard-renewal/

The FUBAR and hideously expensive lunacy of insisting on building in Canada.

Remember in 2013 the Conservatives promised Seaspan to build up to 5 Offshore Patrol Vessels and up to 5 Medium-Endurance Multi-Tasked Vessels--will the former become part of the up to 16 Multi-Purpose Vessels for Seaspan now, with the latter going the Davie as the new Mid-Shore Multi-Mission Ships?

Posts from 2013:

Quote
Canadian Coast Guard Shocker – Ten (maybe) New Serious Vessels
https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guard-shocker-ten-maybe-new-serious-vessels/

Just Announced New Canadian Coast Guard Vessels Overpriced by Factor of Five
https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/mark-collin-just-announced-new-canadian-coast-guard-vessels-overpriced-by-factor-of-five/

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline GR66

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 55,630
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 619
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1841 on: May 22, 2019, 17:24:41 »
How useful would the AOPS be to the Coast Guard?  Could they replace a number of the planned different ships they have under the current strategy?

Would it make sense to transfer ALL of the AOPS to the CCG?  If this reduced the number of ships in Seaspan's production queue they could move up construction of the JSS and reduce the urgency for stop-gap measure like Obelisk.  The reduced number of ships being produced by Seaspan could be offset by adding a 3rd JSS (giving the RCN the desired "spare") and an additional Polar Class Icebreaker for the CCG.

Davie as the new, 3rd shipyard could take on the CCG multi-mission boats to start and planning could begin for a replacement for the Kingston-Class to follow.

Just a thought.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 16,125
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,328
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1842 on: May 22, 2019, 17:41:08 »
"To support future shipbuilding needs and attract more talent and good jobs to our communities, the Government of Canada intends to add a third Canadian shipyard as a partner under the NSS. The Government of Canada will move forward with a competitive process to select the third shipyard in the coming months."

Just in time for the election. 

Billions for new coast guard ships no one bats an eye.  Billions for a new fighter jet and everyone loses their mind.

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 71,810
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,480
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1843 on: May 22, 2019, 18:30:33 »
Dolphin_Hunter:

Quote
Billions for new coast guard ships no one bats an eye.  Billions for a new fighter jet and everyone loses their mind.

Basically because all parties support shipbuilding in Canada, regardless of ridiculous costs and endless delays, and because CCG is not politically controversial--unlike frequently CAF--so media pay little attention and know very little.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Online Swampbuggy

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,710
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 151
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1844 on: May 22, 2019, 19:30:10 »
I'm still hearing rumors of 1st steel cut for CSC in 2030... so... yea...

So an in service date of apx 2035??? That would be almost 20 years without an AAW component in the Navy. That cannot be allowed to happen. There had better be a plan B for that.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 112,639
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,031
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1845 on: May 22, 2019, 19:38:28 »
So an in service date of apx 2035??? That would be almost 20 years without an AAW component in the Navy. That cannot be allowed to happen. There had better be a plan B for that.

Haha welcome to the new CAF, where a LAV Company in Latvia is now called a "Battlegroup" and a frigate with ESSM is an AAW capable warship.

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 71,810
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,480
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1846 on: May 22, 2019, 19:43:19 »
Note: CSC had initial project approval in 2012 (gov still saying first delivery mid-2020s, impossible https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/reports-publications/departmental-plans/departmental-plan-2019-20-index/supplementary-information-index/report-crown-projects.html#CSC ) and Type 26 selected in Oct. 2018 ( https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/canada-chooses-bae-type-26-for-next-generation-warships )--so, after extra two A/OPS for CCG, will be close to 18 years until first ship in water. FUBAR shipbuilding.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline NavyShooter

    Boaty McBoatface!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 184,206
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,039
  • Death from a Bar.....one shot, one Tequilla
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1847 on: May 22, 2019, 20:03:58 »
This brings me back to a post I made in December.


https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,90990.msg1555804.html#msg1555804

Quote
CSC will be cancelled due to the delays, court-cases, and excessive costs (not including any space for overruns)
GOC will contract with ISI to instead build an additional 15 modified AOPS
AOPS design will be modified for last 15 ships to include the new SG-180 upgrade that we just bought for the Halifax class, a slightly upgraded OPS room with a better DLPS (Digital Link) system and an improved armament suite to include a 40mm or 57mm deck gun (preferably 57mm with no ammo hoist - you get the 120 rounds in the mount then have to manually reload) and a set of triple Torp Tubes on each side.  For ASW, they'd add the ability to mount a containerized ASW towed array system.

Presto.  We have a simplified fleet of 21 ships - all of the same type.  It lets them throw a bunch of money at LM as a 'sympathy' response for losing the CSC to enable the redesign of the OPS room and tie in the SG-180. 

From the perspective of the RCN - horrible loss of capability.
From the perspective of the GOC - we get the same number of ships, but a lot less cost
From the perspective of the Public - they don't know what we do anyhow, so it's a win win.


I actually wrote up a 'modest proposal' on line of thinking...I'm pondering adding it here...
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 20:15:35 by NavyShooter »
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline Underway

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 20,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 912
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1848 on: May 22, 2019, 20:04:39 »
So an in service date of apx 2035??? That would be almost 20 years without an AAW component in the Navy. That cannot be allowed to happen. There had better be a plan B for that.

I'm pretty confident from my rumour mill that this won't be the case.  I expect steel to be cut starting in the 2023 timeframe as that's the AOPV build schedule as per 8 AOPV's.  I expect the supplying companies will be building stuff well before this to make sure it gets to Irving on time.  Long lead items need to be ordered and built.  Radars need to be manufactured.  Etc.. etc..  I'm not sure how long that takes but as soon as that ink is dry on the deal phone calls are going to be made to start building kit that goes into the ship.

Online Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 140,810
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,418
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1849 on: May 22, 2019, 20:07:56 »
They likley start on modules that won't change from the Type 26, such as bow, double bottom keel components, allowing them to say "started".