Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 707198 times)

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2225 on: March 24, 2018, 14:45:20 »
Unless we could get an even better deal in Mexico.

They may be too busy co-building (with the Dutch) their own POLA frigates based on the Dutch Damen 'Sigma' Frigate. :dunno:


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Offline Journeyman

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2226 on: March 24, 2018, 21:52:38 »
Quote
They may be too busy co-building (with the Dutch) their own POLA frigates based on the Dutch Damen 'Sigma' Frigate.
Hey, they need to raise money to pay their share of 'The Wall' [Berlin 2.0, not Pink Floyd]

/back to naval speak

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2227 on: April 04, 2018, 08:46:27 »
Well, I thought it should be very obvious by now that there is no way Seaspan can build all of the non-combatants for the coast guard and navy in a timely manner.  But, apparently, there are many bureaucrats that disagree with me.
Quote
Why the Liberals really don't want to talk about leasing icebreakers

The leasing arrangement bears an uncomfortable resemblance to the deal that brought Vice-Admiral Norman down

It was one of those rare displays of opposition unanimity in the House of Commons that aren't flashy, but are definitely hard to ignore.

On at least three occasions last week, a member of the Conservatives, the New Democrats or the Groupe Parlementaire Québécois (the splintered remains of the Bloc Quebecois) rose to ask basically the same question:

Whatever became of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's sudden pledge last January to acquire Coast Guard icebreakers through the Chantier Davie shipyard in Levis, Que.?

The replies from the Liberal side tended to be the typical question period non-answer: We continue our negotiations.

The complete answer could prove politically uncomfortable for the governing Liberals — which explains the banal obfuscation.

"We will not do the negotiations here in the House," Public Services and Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough said.

Small wonder.

On its surface, the arrangement under "negotiation" bears a striking resemblance — in procurement terms — to the deal that brought down the country's second-highest military commander, Vice-Admiral Mark Norman.

He was accused of leaking secret cabinet deliberations related to the last federal contract — a $668 million deal — struck with the Chantier Davie yard.

Norman will appear in court next week to face one charge of breach of trust.

The inability of the once highly-touted National Shipbuilding Strategy to produce supply ships for the navy in a timely manner no doubt will be one the pillars of his defence.

A hopelessly broken procurement system?

The fact that the Liberals, who once questioned the utility of the former Conservative government's plan to lease a navy supply ship, are now negotiating their own rental of light icebreakers — from the same yard — speaks volumes to some analysts.

If Norman intends to argue that the system is hopelessly broken, the prime minister's seemingly out-of-the-blue pledge in Quebec City back in January effectively makes the point for him.

"In terms of the broader objective of what Admiral Norman and some others were working towards, which was getting ships one way or another, the government is today faced with that same dynamic in icebreaking," said Dave Perry, an expert in procurement with the Canadian Global Affairs Institute.

The Liberals, he said, have discovered the options for getting ships in the water when they are not actively being built — or when the building is hopelessly behind schedule — are "relatively finite" under the country's marquee shipbuilding program.

That strategy, devised by the Conservatives in 2010, designated Vancouver's Seaspan as the civilian builder of federal vessels, including the navy's permanent supply ships and icebreakers. Irving Shipbuilding of Halifax is the prime contractor in warship construction.

Chantier-Davie is outside of the official program and Norman's quest to get the navy a temporary supply ship had no end of opponents within the federal bureaucracy.

Those same forces may very well be at work in the new icebreaker "negotiations."

Industry sources close to the deal said there have been a number meetings with federal officials, but no clear progress so far.

Lease or buy?

Apparently, the Liberal government has yet to settle on whether it wants to lease — or purchase outright — as many as four icebreakers, which were built originally for the oil and gas industry but are now available through Chantier-Davie.

As with the naval supply ship project, opponents have quietly argued that the leasing scheme weakens the federal strategy.

Elinor Sloan, a former policy analyst at National Defence, dismissed that argument and said there's more than enough work to go around.

"I don't think awarding small icebreakers would undermine the National Shipbuilding Strategy, because right now Seaspan and Irving have decades of work lined up ahead of them," said Sloan, who is now a professor of international relations at Carleton University.

There are serious capability gaps within the federal fleets that need to be addressed, said both Sloan and Perry.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/chantier-davie-icebreakers-analysis-1.4603819

Offline whiskey601

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2228 on: April 04, 2018, 11:06:47 »
ok, so whats the narrative now?


- federal entity(s) require ships (new, leased or whatever- they are desperate)
- government says no, no, we need jobs! jobs! jobs! from building ships, not from leasing ships
- private entity offers leased ships and jobs
- government signs contract for said ships and jobs and says "we inherited a turd"
- government arranges to have senior military appointee charged for said "turd"
- another federal entity now says we need more ships
- government leader announces that leasing, is now an option for more ships
- government then engages in politics to obscure whether leasing is going to be an event or not
- meantime no new jobs are being created (other than the ones not related to leasing)
- criminal trial is a month away for senior military appointee.
- facts will be disclosed at trial, uncomfortable facts.
- government leader infers option 1 (design, build and buy) is too hard or too expensive or both (he doesn't know);
- option 2 (let someone else do the design, build and then lease with the credit card) is politically uncomfortable;
- government leader asks his people to ask other people to create a hitherto unknown separate but generally similar option to 2;
- and now, whoever in the government or in the federal entity that is "close to the matter" is talking out of line;
- will there be another investigation;
- if option 1 and 2 are out, is there another turd option?

 

Offline LoboCanada

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2229 on: April 04, 2018, 11:59:33 »
That sounds frustrating enough to be accurate.^

"If one cannot lease the turd or one cannot design and build the turd, then one must BECOME the turd"
- Me

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2230 on: May 29, 2018, 13:17:08 »
And what will effect of CSCs' massive (and still really unkown) cost be on CAF budget capabilities overall, given that we are never going to get close to spending 2% of GDP on defence?

Quote
Australian government warned over planned spending on naval shipbuilding

The Australian government has been warned that its naval shipbuilding programme (NSP) could consume so much of the country’s defence procurement budget that it might put at risk the ability of the Australian Defence Force (ADF) to respond to emerging priorities.

The Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) said in a paper about the country’s defence budget on 24 May that the NSP – featuring the planned procurement of assets including 12 new submarines, nine frigates, and 12 offshore patrol vessels – could eat up about one-third of the country’s procurement expenditure in perpetuity.

ASPI said that even taking into account future growth in the budget and the government’s plan to raise the expenditure to 2% of GDP by 2020–21 [emphasis added], the procurement expenditure could be stretched and the government will be challenged to sustain a balanced force structure.
http://www.janes.com/article/80322/australian-government-warned-over-planned-spending-on-naval-shipbuilding

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2231 on: May 29, 2018, 13:58:40 »
Already looking like she just came back from patrol


Offline Colin P

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Offline Chief Stoker

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"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

كافر

Offline FSTO

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2234 on: May 29, 2018, 14:42:50 »
I hope that ramp can actually reach the ground!

Offline LoboCanada

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2235 on: May 29, 2018, 14:44:50 »
When does it hit the water? Sometime later this Summer?

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2236 on: May 29, 2018, 15:12:54 »
I hope that ramp can actually reach the ground!

They look similar to what the CCG used in the Arctic?
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2237 on: May 29, 2018, 15:21:34 »
You mean those horrible steel ones?

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2238 on: May 29, 2018, 15:33:30 »
Already looking like she just came back from patrol



The good old east coast weather  ;D

I remember working at the Port of Belledune and having to regularly give the metal on the coal crane a little TLC for rust and corrosion.

Offline Underway

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2239 on: May 31, 2018, 16:50:37 »
When does it hit the water? Sometime later this Summer?

I'm hearing late fall (Dec) from some places (skuttlebutt).  But that might be the date she's turned over to the navy.  There are still builders/acceptance trials in the timeline somewhere.  Subcontractor delivery issue and the fact the bow was 60mm too wide has caused some delays.

On the plus side the same skuttlebutt says that AOPS #2 is relatively on schedule.

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2240 on: May 31, 2018, 17:02:41 »
I'm hearing late fall (Dec) from some places (skuttlebutt).  But that might be the date she's turned over to the navy.  There are still builders/acceptance trials in the timeline somewhere.  Subcontractor delivery issue and the fact the bow was 60mm too wide has caused some delays.

On the plus side the same skuttlebutt says that AOPS #2 is relatively on schedule.

My son is on that build.  He says September.

Offline whiskey601

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2241 on: June 01, 2018, 10:09:57 »
He’s got to be proud working on that big bugger! I  hope he has a long , fulfilling and enjoyabel career!

jollyjacktar

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2242 on: June 01, 2018, 19:26:59 »
He’s got to be proud working on that big bugger! I  hope he has a long , fulfilling and enjoyabel career!

Me too, as l hope to join him in a couple of months.

Offline Czech_pivo

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2244 on: July 01, 2018, 22:11:28 »
Just saw this come across the wire on CBC
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/davie-coast-guard-icebreakers-canada-vicefield-byers-gagnon-1.4730332

Interesting

Quote
Davie aims to replace Canadian Coast Guard's entire icebreaker fleet ...
https://www.cbc.ca/.../canada/.../davie-coast-guard-icebreakers-canada-vicefield-byers...
3 hours ago - Chantier Davie Canada Inc., the country's largest shipbuilding firm, is gunning for contracts to build new icebreakers for the Canadian Coast ...
  3 hours prior to 20:17 MST.

But article not available at 20:17 MST.  404.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2245 on: July 01, 2018, 22:15:02 »
CBC doesn't like me anymore, because both of these link tell me the story I seek doesn't exist.


I guess that's what I get for regularly writing to tell them to check their facts.  ;D

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2246 on: July 01, 2018, 22:37:54 »
Well I’ll be.....the article was there previously.  I guess they pulled the story for some reason, maybe someone got cold feet.

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2247 on: July 02, 2018, 05:55:55 »
Interesting
  3 hours prior to 20:17 MST.

But article not available at 20:17 MST.  404.


It was probably a story cooked up by Davie or Federal Fleet, its something that they would say......
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

كافر

Offline serger989

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2248 on: July 02, 2018, 10:20:21 »
Well I’ll be.....the article was there previously.  I guess they pulled the story for some reason, maybe someone got cold feet.

I have the article open in a cached version, haven't read it yet. If you open it that way it will work if you stop the browser from refreshing.

Edit: This gist of it was Davie praise but mainly that the 3 Viking icebreakers were selected, the AIVIQ was not, work will begin this summer. I was hoping Canada would pick up the AIVIQ too.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 10:23:12 by serger989 »

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2249 on: July 02, 2018, 12:13:51 »
Quote
Davie aims to replace Canadian Coast Guard's entire icebreaker fleet

Shipbuilding firm will start work on icebreaker conversion this summer

Chantier Davie Canada Inc., the country's largest shipbuilding firm, is gunning for contracts to build new icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard.

"Given the age of the Canadian Coast Guard fleet, the entire icebreaker fleet will need to be replaced in the near future," says Alex Vicefield, CEO of Inocea Group, which has owned Davie since 2012.

"We have every intention of submitting a world-class proposal together with global leaders in icebreaker design."

Until then, Davie, located across the river from Quebec City in Lévis, is in the home stretch of negotiations with the federal government to convert three surplus commercial icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard.

Under its new management, Davie has made its mark in the industry by turning surplus ships into lower-cost solutions.

The first converted icebreaker will be ready in time for the 2018-2019 ice season on the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes.

However, when it comes to building new ships, there remain doubts about Davie's ability to deliver at a competitive cost.

Marc Gagnon is director, government affairs and regulatory compliance for the Montreal-based Fednav, which operates a fleet of nearly 100 ships.

Fednav buys its ships in Japan because, Gagnon says, Canadian-built ships cost "at least twice as much."

"Davie no longer has the capacity to build an icebreaker or a frigate," Gagnon said. "To do so, they would have to re-equip their shipyard."

Vicefield said Davie is aware of the challenges ahead and has invested $60 million to upgrade its steel-cutting and IT infrastructure.

The University of British Columbia's Michael Byers, who argues that Ottawa's current shipbuilding strategy is too costly and needlessly slow, says building government ships in Canada makes sense and Davie is definitely up to the task.

"For every $100 million that is spent on building a ship in Canada, you would get several times more than that in terms of knock-on economic activity," Byers said.

"And Davie is the logical place to do it. They have a very large shipyard. They have a very capable workforce. The labour costs are relatively low and it's an active shipyard."

Last year, before Ottawa agreed to sit down with Davie to discuss the icebreaker conversions, Davie delivered the Asterix — a container ship converted into a supply ship for the Royal Canadian Navy — on time and on budget.

​In 2015, when the navy's existing two supply ships were no longer seaworthy, Vicefield and his team proposed converting the Asterix to a naval supply ship for about $600 million.

"What they did with the Asterix was very impressive," Byers said. "There is no other shipyard in Canada that could have done that."

In comparison, Vancouver-based ​Seaspan was chosen to build two new navy supply ships for $2.6 billion. But the first new supply ship will only be ready in 2020.

"This is a cutthroat business and there is a lot of money involved and a lot of politics involved," Byers said.

"Davie has the capacity and the experience to build icebreakers, plus they have the lowest costs in terms of labour of any shipyard in the country," he said.

The Canadian Coast Guard has an aging fleet of 13 ice-breaking vessels and two hovercraft.

Canada's oldest and largest icebreaker, the CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent, was commissioned in 1969.

It was to be replaced in 2017 by the CCGS John G. Diefenbaker.

But from the initial estimate of $720 million, the Diefenbaker is now expected to cost over $1.4 billion, with delivery in 2022.

To meet Ottawa's need for "interim icebreakers," Davie found four icebreakers built for oil and gas drilling off the coast of Alaska that were idled when oil prices fell, putting an end of Shell's Arctic venture.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau agreed to negotiations with Davie to acquire the three smaller ice-breaking vessels, leaving aside the larger Aiviq.

With no other shipyard matching Davie's proposal, the conversion work will begin this summer.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/davie-coast-guard-icebreakers-canada-vicefield-byers-gagnon-1.4730332