"$3M cut to naval reserves"

[mariomike]

July 8, 2010:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/07/08/ns-naval-cuts.html

 

[Teeps74]

More Res love from Ottawa... We love, you, we are trying to grow you... Oh, by the way, can you give us back your budget? We only need numbers, we do not need trained troops, how silly...

 

[Pat in Halifax]

This is indeed unfortunate but before everyone flips, keep in mind that these are typical cuts (5-10%) across the board. Just my Section within my Division of my School had the $$$ available reduced from 50K+ for FY 08/09 to 42K for 09/10 to 35K for 10/11. I am still waiting for next year's forecasted numbers. It is the same everywhere - Do more with less. Interesting factoid here:
-A HALIFAX class frigate at 20 knots on 2 GT (Gas Turbines) burns approx 3800 litres/hr
-On PDE (Propulsion Diesel) at 16 knots burns approx 1500 litres/ hr
-At approx $1/litre for naval distillate (home heating fuel), that equates to $2300/hr...over the course of a few deployments...multiplied by 12 platforms.....a "few" $$$s each month.....My point?....
Teach OOWs to stop driving these things like they are stolen!!!!...save some gas money!

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Greatly unfortunate. I would say here we go again.

In another thread (6 MCDV to be mothballed, I think), someone complained about the reservists who do nothing but hang around the messes of NRU's and have their beers: But if you keep cutting training and ops budget, what else are they supposed to do ???

Besides, with deficit slaying becoming the "in" thing in Ottawa again, this is probably going to become the norm for the next few years. When Ottawa is in such mode, the peacetime (I exclude ops in Afghanistan here) military has a great big red bulls-eye on its back.

Lets wish ourselves luck.

P.S.: PAt in Halifax: When did M.E.S. get out of fashion? In the old steamers days, it was S.O.P. that wherever we went, it was "Most Economical Speed unless otherwise required for operational purposes".

 

[McG]

In another thread (6 MCDV to be mothballed, I think) ...

What are the chances that this announcement is the fall-out of re-allocating funds to keep the MCDVs operating?
Everyone knew something had to give when that reversal was directed.

 

[George Wallace]

This has got me thinking/wondering why someone hasn't come up with a plan to take a few of these MCDVs that can not be manned and placing them in locations such as HMCS Star in Hamilton, HMCS York in Toronto, as well as places like Quebec City, Kingston and Thunder Bay as Training platforms, either alongside or dry docked?  This would provide trained Reservists to augment the MCDVs that are still being sent to sea. 

 

[aesop081]

More Res love from Ottawa...

Yes thats it, more big bad Ottawa sticking it to reservists again.

:

This has got me thinking/wondering why someone hasn't come up with a plan to take a few of these MCDVs that can not be manned and placing them in locations such as HMCS Star in Hamilton, HMCS York in Toronto, as well as places like Quebec City, Kingston and Thunder Bay as Training platforms, either alongside or dry docked?  This would provide trained Reservists to augment the MCDVs that are still being sent to sea. 

Probably the same reason why the AF tends to group specific fleets together at main bases. Logistical chains are simpler and maintenance resources can be more effectively concentrated.

 

[McG]

This has got me thinking/wondering why someone hasn't come up with a plan to take a few of these MCDVs that can not be manned and placing them in locations such as HMCS Star in Hamilton, HMCS York in Toronto, as well as places like Quebec City, Kingston and Thunder Bay as Training platforms, either alongside or dry docked?

Probably because it would be contrary to the political debate & direction reversal that now calls to see all maritime costal defence vessels active & defending our coasts.  The 6 vessels that could not be manned will be manned.  There is not the option to put them somewhere else.  Something else had to give.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/93567.25.html

 

[DONT_PANIC]

Probably because it would be contrary to the political debate & direction reversal that now calls to see all maritime costal defence vessels active & defending our coasts.  The 6 vessels that could not be manned will be manned.  There is not the option to put them somewhere else.  Something else had to give.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/93567.25.html

I spent some time last month out west doing some OJT, and what really struck me was that even alongside with no real crew, these MCDVs could be really usefull training platforms during times (like the summer) when there are generally be more trainees (sometimes far too many) that billets on ships that are sailling.  If adequate staff could be provided, they could be used by many trades to complete a number requirements on their various OJPRs, as well as develop a wide range of general seamanship skills.

For instance, it could be a great place to get people double banked as quartermaster and other dutywatch related jobs and start getting people quartermaster qualified.  People could have a chance to crawl through all the spaces in detail and get their know your ship books done.  Trainees could have a chance to go through various damage control evolutions in slow time to get adjusted from how things were done in DC school to how they are done on ship.  No reason the ship couldn't go through flying stations or force protection states either.  In terms of trade development, I assume MESOs would have a great opportunity to work on drawings and such; NCIOPS could go through flashup routines, message processing etc... No reason the cooks can't cook soup/lunch. 

At any rate, this could keep trainees developing usefull skills.  I heard of several people on OJT contracts being sent to the field to act as a demo platoon for a BOTC course instead.  That probably did little in developing any relevant trade skills...

 

[aesop081]

  If adequate staff could be provided,

I'm sure that is at the heart of the problem....

 

[DONT_PANIC]

I'm sure that is at the heart of the problem....

I partially agree.  In retrospect, an arrangement like the above sounds similar to the C-OJT program of years past, where trainees would rotate in and out of a ship, and work on other aspects of their OJPR while ashore.  Often, the program just seemed to mass produce personel that were on paper, qualified, but lacked many competencies in practice.  I think that well trained sailors that came out of the program were either very motivated themselves, or benifited from effective divisional petty officers that showed alot of initiative in getting their trainees to sea anyway they could.  I can definetly understand any uncertainty towards trying to repeat the experiment.

Perhaps the solution to providing more supervision could lie in tapping both the NRDs and ships.  For example, lets say  each department on a ship  was able to provide even one trade qualified sailor to supervise trainees on the downship.  This would certainly increase the burden on the remainder of the crew that was sailing and would require standing 1 in 2s instead of 1 in 3.  However, this would also free up another bunk for a trainee at sea.  This would also give the ships much more input into the actual training of the sailors they'd be receiving in the future. 

I think the manning situation might have to get worse before it gets better.  But when we have people on OJT contracts spending their time doing demo platoon on a BOTC course while cutting the budget we should probably be asking ourselves why we are spending money to put them on contract in the first place...

 

[KrazyHamburglar]

I agree that anything that can be done with the MCDVs while alongside is better than nothing. I think that using the platform as a DC training platform is actually a pretty good idea. DC School is pretty good for the "fighting the fire" aspect, but everything else looks more like a building than a ship.

Perhaps the solution to providing more supervision could lie in tapping both the NRDs and ships.  For example, lets say  each department on a ship  was able to provide even one trade qualified sailor to supervise trainees on the downship.  This would certainly increase the burden on the remainder of the crew that was sailing and would require standing 1 in 2s instead of 1 in 3.  However, this would also free up another bunk for a trainee at sea.  This would also give the ships much more input into the actual training of the sailors they'd be receiving in the future. 

With personnel shortages, I don't think putting more stress on the ship themselves is the solution. I don't know about the frigates, but for the 280, in the CSE department, people are already sailing 1 in 2 pretty much on each trip. The technical knowledge needs to be retained on the ship for her to be able to perform.

People could have a chance to crawl through all the spaces in detail and get their know your ship books done. 

In terms of trade development, I assume MESOs would have a great opportunity to work on drawings and such... 

I assume you meant MSEO...?

I these points, I totally disagree, the KYSB are class specific. It would be a huge waste of time and resources, unless they are used to train reservists. It's pretty much the same for the equipment. It is useless to work on drawings and equipment that you're not going to use anyway and you'll need to do again once you join a "real" unit...

Basically, the only thing that can be usefully done is training that is general and not class specific... seamanship evolutions, duty watch training, DC training...

 

[SeanNewman]

I guess we have to give this back now:

 

[MARS]

I assume you meant MSEO...?

Nope.  He means MESO.  Marine Engineering Systems Operator.  We just increased the MESO QL1 to something like 21 weeks.  They need all the help they can get.

 

[KrazyHamburglar]

... more of the same...

My point still stands...

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I these points, I totally disagree, the KYSB are class specific. It would be a huge waste of time and resources, unless they are used to train reservists.

I’m pretty sure the OP was talking about reservists…

It is useless to work on drawings and equipment that you're not going to use anyway and you'll need to do again once you join a "real" unit...

The Kingston Class don’t qualify as “real” units in your view?

 

[KrazyHamburglar]

The Kingston Class don’t qualify as “real” units in your view?

Kingston Class with tied alongside with barely any crew on board does not fit as a unit in my book...

Also, I think we need to distance ourselves from the us and them concept. (res vs reg)

I was thinking along more general lines, since we wont have the manpower or money to gainfully employ the MCDVs, we might as well use them to train both reservist and regulars...

 

[Stoker]

This has got me thinking/wondering why someone hasn't come up with a plan to take a few of these MCDVs that can not be manned and placing them in locations such as HMCS Star in Hamilton, HMCS York in Toronto, as well as places like Quebec City, Kingston and Thunder Bay as Training platforms, either alongside or dry docked?  This would provide trained Reservists to augment the MCDVs that are still being sent to sea.

That would be a good idea if we had the funds, however to do that and it was looked at to station 1 or 2 hulls in Quebec city for training. Unfortunately things like jetty space and planned maintenance requirements would prevent that from happening.

 

[Stoker]

I spent some time last month out west doing some OJT, and what really struck me was that even alongside with no real crew, these MCDVs could be really usefull training platforms during times (like the summer) when there are generally be more trainees (sometimes far too many) that billets on ships that are sailling.  If adequate staff could be provided, they could be used by many trades to complete a number requirements on their various OJPRs, as well as develop a wide range of general seamanship skills.

For instance, it could be a great place to get people double banked as quartermaster and other dutywatch related jobs and start getting people quartermaster qualified.  People could have a chance to crawl through all the spaces in detail and get their know your ship books done.  Trainees could have a chance to go through various damage control evolutions in slow time to get adjusted from how things were done in DC school to how they are done on ship.  No reason the ship couldn't go through flying stations or force protection states either.  In terms of trade development, I assume MESOs would have a great opportunity to work on drawings and such; NCIOPS could go through flashup routines, message processing etc... No reason the cooks can't cook soup/lunch. 

That is an excellent idea and what is being done with KINGSTON right now, however as of 1st Aug the ship is suppose to be preserved and locked up or being turned over to the contractor for preservation. The ships are being mothballed.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Also, I think we need to distance ourselves from the us and them concept. (res vs reg)

Less comments about the Kingston Class not being "real" units would help. :2c: