6 Jan 2020 U.S. Events (Split from A Deeply Fractured US)

[PMedMoe]

Trump's lawyer Van der Veen did pretty well despite the death threats. Why would he have done poorly in the absence of threats?

I meant the vote, not the lawyer's abilities.

 

[mariomike]

Trump's lawyer Van der Veen did pretty well despite the death threats.

He has an interesting perspective:

“What happened at the Capitol on January 6th is absolutely horrific. But what happened at the Capitol during this trial was not too far away from that.”

 

[quadrapiper]

Interesting how a country so set on avoiding monarchy or dictatorship managed to create such a baroque structure for getting rid of their HoS/HoG: trials, evidence, etc. versus some sort of simple majority in both houses.

 

[brihard]

Interesting how a country so set on avoiding monarchy or dictatorship managed to create such a baroque structure for getting rid of their HoS/HoG: trials, evidence, etc. versus some sort of simple majority in both houses.

Bear in mind that when the constitution was created, America had no political parties, nevermind the hyper partisan system that exists now. It wasn’t at the time envisioned that loyalty to the party (or to reelection) would - excuse me - trump loyalty to the country and its people.

 

[Jarnhamar]

He has an interesting perspective:

“What happened at the Capitol on January 6th is absolutely horrific. But what happened at the Capitol during this trial was not too far away from that.”

I'm not sure who's perspective that is but I'm willing to bet they've never been in a riot or surrounded by people trying to smash them in the head.

 

[mariomike]

I'm not sure who's perspective that is

Trump's lawyer. Michael van der Veen.

Have to wonder how results would have been without death threats.

Have to wonder how results would have been if there had been a secret ballot.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm not sure who's perspective that is but I'm willing to bet they've never been in a riot or surrounded by people trying to smash them in the head.

It's kind of fun, seriously. As long as you have the right kind of backup of course which, in this case, the Capitol Police most definitely did not.

 

[Weinie]

It's kind of fun, seriously. As long as you have the right kind of backup of course which, in this case, the Capitol Police most definitely did not.

Faith and begorrah, you may be on to something

 

[daftandbarmy]

Faith and begorrah, you may be on to something

That's one of the problems in managing riots.... both sides can have too much fun. Like about every Friday night

 

[Brad Sallows]

I meant the vote, not the lawyer's abilities.

I figured that. But there is no righteous side in this dispute.

 

[Brad Sallows]

“What happened at the Capitol on January 6th is absolutely horrific. But what happened at the Capitol during this trial was not too far away from that.”

And to what have you concluded he was referring?

 

[brihard]

“What happened at the Capitol on January 6th is absolutely horrific. But what happened at the Capitol during this trial was not too far away from that.”

And to what have you concluded he was referring?

Quite frankly, does it matter? It’s plainly absurd - insultingly so - to suggest that any of the peaceful politicking, however contentious, can possibly be meaningfully compared to the violent insurrection on January 6th in which people were literally killed. There has been nothing else that has taken place in the Capitol in living memory that can stack up to that. Him trying to suggest that Trump’s political demise in the halls of Congress is comparable to the insurrection is one of the dumbest things ever stated in a building know for its sometimes outlandish statements.

But that, I suppose, is what happens when you have to be defended by whatever lawyers are left after the rest have turned and run from working for you.

 

[mariomike]

It’s plainly absurd - insultingly so - to suggest that any of the peaceful politicking, however contentious, can possibly be meaningfully compared to the violent insurrection on January 6th in which people were literally killed.

Right.

I don't recall 140 police officers getting injured during the trial, but that's just me.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Quite frankly, does it matter? It’s plainly absurd - insultingly so - to suggest that any of the peaceful politicking, however contentious, can possibly be meaningfully compared to the violent insurrection on January 6th in which people were literally killed. There has been nothing else that has taken place in the Capitol in living memory that can stack up to that. Him trying to suggest that Trump’s political demise in the halls of Congress is comparable to the insurrection is one of the dumbest things ever stated in a building know for its sometimes outlandish statements.

But that, I suppose, is what happens when you have to be defended by whatever lawyers are left after the rest have turned and run from working for you.

But it's an important fallacy in the fanatical right wing narrative which, of course, features some good old fashioned Nazism too:

How the Right Went Far-Right​

The media once quarantined neofascists. Not anymore.

Some of these right-wingers went all the way to out-and-proud fascism. Richard Spencer, who coined the term “alternative right” in 2008, advocated “the creation of a white ethnostate on the North American continent,” to be achieved through “peaceful ethnic cleansing.” At an alt-right conference just after Trump’s election, Spencer declared, “Hail Trump! Hail our people! Hail victory.” This last phrase, the literal translation of “Sieg heil,” led some members of the audience to rise with Nazi salutes. When the leaders of a movement call for “peaceful” ethnic cleansing, it ought not to be surprising that one of their followers decides to do it the old-fashioned way. In October 2018, just before killing 11 Jews in a Pittsburgh synagogue, the murderer posted a cartoon on a right-wing social media site with the caption “The libertarian-to-far-right pipeline is a real thing.”

How the Right Went Far-Right

The media once quarantined neofascists. Not anymore.

prospect.org

 

[Brad Sallows]

It’s plainly absurd - insultingly so - to suggest that any of the peaceful politicking, however contentious, can possibly be meaningfully compared to the violent insurrection on January 6th in which people were literally killed.

The presentation of doctored evidence in a trial in the US Senate is beyond "politicking", and is one of those "erosion of democracy" things some people get up on the high horse about. I suppose democratic institutions and principles are situational according to political allegiances.

 

[Brad Sallows]

But that, I suppose, is what happens when you have to be defended by whatever lawyers are left after the rest have turned and run from working for you.

Oh, that's well-reasoned.

 

[FJAG]

An interesting article of introspection from within the US Christian community:

WHEN CHRISTIAN MEDIA PEDDLE LIES​

BY ADAM RUSSELL TAYLOR

History has its eyes on the Senate this week as it conducts the impeachment trial of former President Donald J. Trump on the charge of inciting insurrection. I forced myself to watch the 13-minute videothat the House impeachment managers showed as a part of their case; though the video is jarring given the profanity and graphic violence, I think it should be shown in every high school civics class, maybe even to adults in every church. The video is damning evidence that Trump was directly responsible for inciting the criminal actions of the “Stop the Steal” rioters, which ultimately led to five deaths and more than 100 injuries.


I have already made the case that Trump should be impeached and that accountability is crucial to both safeguarding our democracy and to begin healing. This week, the House managers have been making a compelling argument that we can’t separate the siege of the Capitol from the “big lie” promulgated by former president Trump and his enablers before and after the election that the election was stolen — a lie rooted in our nation’s original sin of white supremacy. This lie has not gone away with a new administration; thanks to Trump’s co-conspirators and the silence of far too many within the church, it has spread. In fact, over 70 percent of Republican voters still believe the election was stolen.

This all could have been avoided: More prominent conservative Christian leaders and Christian media could have spoken out against the lie and reported the truth. Instead, many of them fanned the flames that led to this tragedy. ...

See rest of article here.

I particularly like this quote:

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said it best: “It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words of the bad people, and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people.”

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Quite frankly, does it matter? It’s plainly absurd - insultingly so - to suggest that any of the peaceful politicking, however contentious, can possibly be meaningfully compared to the violent insurrection on January 6th in which people were literally killed. There has been nothing else that has taken place in the Capitol in living memory that can stack up to that. Him trying to suggest that Trump’s political demise in the halls of Congress is comparable to the insurrection is one of the dumbest things ever stated in a building know for its sometimes outlandish statements.

But that, I suppose, is what happens when you have to be defended by whatever lawyers are left after the rest have turned and run from working for you.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/03/02/a-look-at-the-history-of-attacks-in-the-u-s-capitol-44-years-after-the-weather-underground-bombing/

1954, a group of Puerto Rican separatists stormed the House with guns and wounded 5.

 

[brihard]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/03/02/a-look-at-the-history-of-attacks-in-the-u-s-capitol-44-years-after-the-weather-underground-bombing/

1954, a group of Puerto Rican separatists stormed the House with guns and wounded 5.

Interesting, thanks for that one. I hadn’t been aware of that attack. Still technically applicable to my own ‘living memory’ then, but obviously not those who’ve been around longer.

I don’t think it knocks down the real point I was making in any way.

 

[PMedMoe]

The presentation of doctored evidence in a trial in the US Senate is beyond "politicking", and is one of those "erosion of democracy" things some people get up on the high horse about. I suppose democratic institutions and principles are situational according to political allegiances.

Is there proof the evidence was "doctored" as you say?