A Deeply Fractured US

[Brad Sallows]

There is a quiet rage building up in Minnesota. When this type of guy decides to go and confront ICE then something has changed.

An obvious question: why isn't this happening to the same degree in any of the other 49 states?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

An obvious question: why isn't this happening to the same degree in any of the other 49 states?

Because they haven't been invaded (yet) by poorly trained federal officials who act like jack-booted thugs?

 

[brihard]

i remain utterly shocked that it hasnt. Unless i missed it? Maybe too urban and liberal an area? I know for a fact if someone tried some sort of barely knocking, no warrant , barely id'd on a couple of my neighbours that i wouldnt have to feed the pigs for a week

I’m surprised too. It’s not like lots of liberals in the U.S. don’t also have guns, they just don’t talk about it as much. At some point some ICE officers will screw up and get killed trying to execute a warrant on the wrong house or wrongfully arrest some citizen(s).

 

[Brad Sallows]

Because they haven't been invaded (yet) by poorly trained federal officials who act like jack-booted thugs?

ICE shows up at various facilities in several other states to pick up people for deportation. Locals hand them over; ICE leaves. No problems. Why is MN such an outlier?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It’s only a matter of time before ICE hits the wrong house and dude opens up on them.
That would be horrible for everyone since that will give Trump the pretext to send in Federal Troops.

If I'm not mistaken, Trump has power and reasons to enact the Insurrection Act right now, if he wishes. He just needs to push the button.

 

[QV]

ICE shows up at various facilities in several other states to pick up people for deportation. Locals hand them over; ICE leaves. No problems. Why is MN such an outlier?

Tim Walz needs a narrative change stat.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

ICE shows up at various facilities in several other states to pick up people for deportation. Locals hand them over; ICE leaves. No problems. Why is MN such an outlier?

Is that a serious question?

The real world isn't an intellectual problem. It is affected by intent, method, personal animus, animal spirits, force ratios, political retribution etc.

Shooting a Mom in the face certainly may have had an influence on local response.

The feds outnumber the city police by a factor of 5. 600 cops vs 3000 federal agents. Some of those cops have been targeted by ICE while off duty, to prove their US citizenship. All of those targeted so far are people of colour.

Show me any other location where this disparity of force exists or existed.

 

[brihard]

Is that a serious question?

The real world isn't an intellectual problem. It is affected by intent, method, personal animus, animal spirits, force ratios, political retribution etc.

Shooting a Mom in the face certainly may have had an influence on local response.

The feds outnumber the city police by a factor of 5. 600 cops vs 3000 federal agents. Some of those cops have been targeted by ICE while off duty, to prove their US citizenship. All of those targeted so far are people of colour.

Show me any other location where this disparity of force exists or existed.

You saw that speech by one of the US municipal police chiefs too, eh?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Is that a serious question?

It's a rhetorical question.

The real world isn't an intellectual problem. It is affected by intent, method, personal animus, animal spirits, force ratios, political retribution etc.

Yes. Those are some of the problems in MN. Walz is probably disappointed that he didn't become VP, and probably resents some of the ways he has been mocked. MN is a highly progressive-leaning state; it's the 1 of 50 that Reagan didn't win in 1984; it's strongly Democratic and therefore strongly anti-Republican. The allegations of widespread fraud over public funding (daycares and Medicare) are unlikely to be entirely without foundation, and a distraction from those is helpful to anyone in authority who might look like they weren't doing their jobs, even if they weren't criminally involved. Third parties around the country are goading useful idiots into and beyond civil disobedience to the point mobs are going after people on the basis of "look like" or "might sympathize with" the "bad guys". The MN governor (Walz) openly mused on employing his NG to limit federal enforcement of federal laws.

But mayhem isn't happening in a lot of other places, which that suggests that ICE can do what the administration wants ICE to do without mayhem UNLESS people object enough to intervene and initiate cycles of escalation. That's mostly on the intervenors, although the administration seems to welcome opportunities to wrongfoot its opponents.

Show me any other location where this disparity of force exists or existed.

I can't, because the necessary conditions don't exist in many places (that Portland OR might be one of them heightens the obviousness of where the problems originate - "Portland's gonna Portland"), which, again, suggests people other than the administration/ICE are chiefly responsible for the escalations which produce the consequences.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

ICE shows up at various facilities in several other states to pick up people for deportation. Locals hand them over; ICE leaves. No problems. Why is MN such an outlier?

Squad democrats and paid agitators and rioters. The State hierarchy is so involved in participating with the massive fraud (north of 9 billion now) that they need to push a nuclear option to keep the fraud investigation and participation under the radar on the back page.

That and funders like Soros, the Hopewell Fund, the Arabella Network, the Tides Foundation amongst others.

ICE has deployed and performed raids in lots of other places around the states with zero problems from rioters and support from local LEO. What is making MN so special? Taken in total, it appears MN has created their own bubble and can't complain it's Trump’s fault.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

It's a rhetorical question.

Yes. Those are some of the problems in MN. Walz is probably disappointed that he didn't become VP, and probably resents some of the ways he has been mocked. MN is a highly progressive-leaning state; it's the 1 of 50 that Reagan didn't win in 1984; it's strongly Democratic and therefore strongly anti-Republican. The allegations of widespread fraud over public funding (daycares and Medicare) are unlikely to be entirely without foundation, and a distraction from those is helpful to anyone in authority who might look like they weren't doing their jobs, even if they weren't criminally involved. Third parties around the country are goading useful idiots into and beyond civil disobedience to the point mobs are going after people on the basis of "look like" or "might sympathize with" the "bad guys". The MN governor (Walz) openly mused on employing his NG to limit federal enforcement of federal laws.

But mayhem isn't happening in a lot of other places, which that suggests that ICE can do what the administration wants ICE to do without mayhem UNLESS people object enough to intervene and initiate cycles of escalation. That's mostly on the intervenors, although the administration seems to welcome opportunities to wrongfoot its opponents.

I can't, because the necessary conditions don't exist in many places (that Portland OR might be one of them heightens the obviousness of where the problems originate - "Portland's gonna Portland"), which, again, suggests people other than the administration/ICE are chiefly responsible for the escalations which produce the consequences.

Right. You do you. I'm out.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Right. You do you. I'm out.

Always happy to serve up a non-conforming view.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Re-read the Declaration of Independence. The bar for justifying armed revolt is pretty high. Squabbles over policy ain't in it.

Following up on a previous question: you see opposition protests against heavy-handed ICE folks having reached “armed revolt”?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Following up on a previous question: you see opposition protests against heavy-handed ICE folks having reached “armed revolt”?

Close. The new Black Panthers protesting while being strapped. It's their legal right, but it'll only take an ND to light a fire.

 

[FJAG]

If I'm not mistaken, Trump has power and reasons to enact the Insurrection Act right now, if he wishes. He just needs to push the button.

The threshold for what constitutes insurrection is much higher than what you think it is. January 6th was a real attempt at insurrection tacitly approved by this president. The fact that the insurrectionists were pardoned very early on in this president's current administration means that he has two very different standards for what acts constitute insurrection: on the one hand are actions by people who please him and on the other are those by people he doesn't like. Rule of law has no meaning when you divide a people into "us" and "them."

There is no insurrection going on in the US. What is going on is a small number of constitutionally permitted protests by a people against the irrational and jack-booted excesses brought on by an extremist administration and their thugs.

Removing illegal - and especially criminal - aliens is one thing. Willy-nilly dragging innocent American citizens into the streets in their underwear because they look brown or Asian is an entirely different thing. These clowns can't tell the difference.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Following up on a previous question: you see opposition protests against heavy-handed ICE folks having reached “armed revolt”?

Not unless they're using arms. Unquestionably they're opposing lawful federal authority.

Nullification is one of the contentious points in the US context, particularly since it featured in the run-up to the US Civil War. It's why you might see some people trying to draw a line from the Confederacy (or school segregationists in the '50s) to opponents of immigration enforcement by ICE.

Somewhere before civil war it's possible to cross the threshold for "insurrection", and trigger uses of the Insurrection Act. What is "insurrection" is not defined by the constitution. If "obstruction to the laws" meets whatever other characteristics are customarily required, use of means up to and including the regular forces is authorized.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The threshold for what constitutes insurrection is much higher than what you think it is. January 6th was a real attempt at insurrection tacitly approved by this president. The fact that the insurrectionists were pardoned very early on in this president's current administration means that he has two very different standards for what acts constitute insurrection: on the one hand are actions by people who please him and on the other are those by people he doesn't like. Rule of law has no meaning when you divide a people into "us" and "them."

There is no insurrection going on in the US. What is going on is a small number of constitutionally permitted protests by a people against the irrational and jack-booted excesses brought on by an extremist administration and their thugs.

Removing illegal - and especially criminal - aliens is one thing. Willy-nilly dragging innocent American citizens into the streets in their underwear because they look brown or Asian is an entirely different thing. These clowns can't tell the difference.

I'm attempting to make points without bias. Probably not succeeding. Jan 6 is far from settled. There is a proper, sanctioned committee looking at it right now. Too bad Pelosi's bunch destroyed all the records. You say it was a blatant attempt at insurrection. Yet not one person arrested by the democrats were charged with it. Do you seriously think Pelosi wouldn’t have pursued those charges to bolster her conspiracy, if she could've?

Legal experts, on both sides, have conceded conditions exist to proclaim the Act in MN.

Your bile detracts from your point.

Jan 6 has nothing to do with what is going on in MN, right now.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not unless they're using arms. Unquestionably they're opposing lawful federal authority.

Nullification is one of the contentious points in the US context, particularly since it featured in the run-up to the US Civil War. It's why you might see some people trying to draw a line from the Confederacy (or school segregationists in the '50s) to opponents of immigration enforcement by ICE.

Somewhere before civil war it's possible to cross the threshold for "insurrection", and trigger uses of the Insurrection Act. What is "insurrection" is not defined by the constitution. If "obstruction to the laws" meets whatever other characteristics are customarily required, use of means up to and including the regular forces is authorized.

I find it ironic that in the case of the Civil War and the goings on in MN, that the democrats are at fault for both.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I find it ironic that in the case of the Civil War and the goings on in MN, that the democrats are at fault for both.

The party lineage is a fact, but it's not really the same membership. Southern Democrats migrated to being southern Republicans. And political realignment in the southern states was mostly over economic/fiscal policies, not racial ones. Along the way, the actual kinds of people who were southern Democrats became mostly extinct.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Is that a serious question?

The real world isn't an intellectual problem. It is affected by intent, method, personal animus, animal spirits, force ratios, political retribution etc.

Shooting a Mom in the face certainly may have had an influence on local response.

The feds outnumber the city police by a factor of 5. 600 cops vs 3000 federal agents. Some of those cops have been targeted by ICE while off duty, to prove their US citizenship. All of those targeted so far are people of colour.

Show me any other location where this disparity of force exists or existed.

Unfortunately many/most illegal aliens are people of colour. There are at least 11 million illegal aliens in the United States. Vast majority (90%) are people of colour from a few select regions.

It's not really shocking ICE would target people of colour for immigration enforcement operations where that's where the problem is.

As for the women. They were naive and stupid to get in to it with the ICE agents. They may have felt they were right but confronting individuals that are armed is never smart, doesn't matter if it's criminals, police, or anyone for that matter. People seem to think being right is more important than self-preservation. Congratulations, you were right... you're also now dead.

I felt a tremendous sense of grief and sadness for the wife who had gotten in to a heated argument with ICE agents. The video of her reaction after her wife got shot in the face was telling. Her emotions led her to make some really poor decisions.