A Deeply Fractured US

[ytz]

Meanwhile, it's a good thing Canada has such a laser-like focus on serious post-grad PME for its officers.

Guessing you haven't seen a textbook, let alone a staff college curriculum in decades.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Guessing you haven't seen a textbook, let alone a staff college curriculum in decades.

I'm thinking of all the bitching on threads here, which often produces two main and somewhat opposed streams of thought: that "war studies" is a cop-out not held in high esteem by some; and "do we really need university-educated officers?" for some others. I suppose you and I would fall into the former group. My impression - stipulated, it could be mistaken - is that Canada has its work cut out for it to even reach the pre-Trump levels of post-grad education met by the US military, which, even if particular doors are closed, will still continue to seek post-grad education. If only the energy spent fretting about the US could be channeled into productive advocacy to improve our own back yard.

 

[FJAG]

Meanwhile, it's a good thing Canada has such a laser-like focus on serious post-grad PME for its officers.

Interestingly when I applied for law school the application process looked for a broad diversity of pre-law education as preferred. It wasn't just humanities, it extended to hard sciences, politics and theoretical studies. The belief was that a broad education developed the critical thinking necessary for a proper foundation of a legal education.

There is no doubt that many universities cater to what many consider basket weaving 101 courses. That's because in any organization truly dedicated to education you want to explore the boundaries. MAGA doesn't want that. Conservatism is also an adjective describing people who do not want to see change. It's always interesting to see various conservative cultures pick the spot in human evolution that they want to stop progressing at.

If conservatives truly want to have critical thinking blossom then get rid of all religious based private Grade 1-12 education. But Oh! No! that would put paid to most of the Charter schools publicly funded down south.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If conservatives truly want to have critical thinking blossom then get rid of all religious based private Grade 1-12 education. But Oh! No! that would put paid to most of the Charter schools publicly funded down south.

Ridiculous. Public schools are as capable of delivering shoddy education, especially in the US. So are "grievance studies" programs. There is a huge gulf between those and traditional humanities.

Religious belief and education aren't useful predictors of ability. My working life was spent among people with credentials in hard sciences and engineering (math, physics, comp sci, EE, eng phys, etc). To put it in Canadian context, some had worked for luminary companies such as MDA and MPR at this end of the country. Some of the best were also deeply religious, and/or had religious education, and/or had kids in private schools or even home-schooled. Ability will out; what matters is 11-12 - particularly 12 as the launch point into post-sec - and whether or not the post-secondary education is crippled by political activism.

 

[ytz]

I'm thinking of all the bitching on threads here, which often produces two main and somewhat opposed streams of thought: that "war studies" is a cop-out not held in high esteem by some; and "do we really need university-educated officers?" for some others. I suppose you and I would fall into the former group. My impression - stipulated, it could be mistaken - is that Canada has its work cut out for it to even reach the pre-Trump levels of post-grad education met by the US military,

You are massively misunderstanding what the criticism is.

What people complain about is that those folks get the same SCRIT points as everybody else. But instead of actually doing a full load of classes like any normal grad student, half their credits are from CFC. That MA has de facto become a way to make sure a lot of operator trades have a Master's degree on their resume so they don't look like total dullards. Debatable whether that is fair or not.

My American colleagues would actually get more SCRIT points for their STEM degrees or for attending more prestigious schools on recognized programs (like a Fulbright or Rhodes Scholar). I got the same points (1 pt) for my two STEM degrees as my buddy who did a part time MA at Carleton. And an even bigger complaint is Second Language is worth 4 pts on the SCRIT. Going to NPS actually set me back getting promoted. But it was a worthwhile experience for me and I came home with a skillset which the CAF suddenly found useful in setting up a space component.

which, even if particular doors are closed, will still continue to seek post-grad education. If only the energy spent fretting about the US could be channeled into productive advocacy to improve our own back yard.

This is a thread on the US in a forum about military matters. I would assume discussion about what is happening to their military is topical.

You can go roam US Military forums and you will see tons of criticism of this policy from serving personnel and veterans too. Of course, there's always enlisted folks who think any education is pointless. But by and large this model of sending their officers and generals to do graduate education at good schools has served them well for decades. It's ensured that the US military has become and remains the premier fighting force on the planet.

You know where you see the government demanding that military officers and senior bureaucrats only attend party approved schools? Authoritarian regimes like China.

I am willing to bet that a Trump U educated Colonel or General will not do better that a supposedly woke Yale graduate.

 

[FJAG]

Ability will out; what matters is 11-12 - particularly 12 as the launch point into post-sec - and whether or not the post-secondary education is crippled by political activism.

Ability will not out if its been formed by a decade of propaganda. Yes some may escape their indoctrination, most will succumb to it.

Primary and secondary education is the foundation of beliefs. That's where the guardrails need to be. Once they get to post-secondary then they will be able to properly analyze what is relevant and what is bull shit.

Post-secondary education isn't crippled by political activism. The fact is conservative political activism exists just as much as the political activism that the conservatives despise. If there wasn't conservative activism then guys like Charlie Kirk would have been out of a job. Let's call a spade a spade. The problem isn't that there is political activism in universities; the problem is that it's political activism that opposes the Right.

 

[ytz]

A whole bunch of Ivy League schools in the US actually give preference to serving military and veterans. That perspective is highly valued. If you're worried about "woke", removing the guy/gal who can talk about real life experiences is not going to help achieve your goals.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You know where you see the government demanding that military officers and senior bureaucrats only attend party approved schools? Authoritarian regimes like China.

I think you should also look at France and the UK. In France, if you wish to become a senior bureaucrat, you have to go to specific universities, depending on the department you wish to work in. It's not quite as clear for England, but if you wish to make it to secretary or under-secretary level, you'd better have gotten a first (or at max a second) from Oxford or Cambridge. You get a first from LSU? Forget it, they don't think LSU is a university.

 

[ytz]

I’m out of CAF now but both respectful and envious of the funded education options. I’m doing my master’s now and there’s a CAF officer whose job for two years is to complete the same program. I’d do shameful things for an opportunity like that, instead of booking it from work to class once a week and juggling a toddler during readings in the evening.

One of my criticisms of our sponsored education programs is that we aren't actually strict on workload, content, etc. Everything depends on the sponsor. Mine simply told me learn xyz for your job. So I made sure I covered those classes and then looked at what else I could do and maximized the opportunity. I could have easily slacked off and had half the workload. The Americans had detailed matrices of all the courses they had to take to get their advanced qual code. Best part, the CAF never even gave me the qual code for Space. So even more I only have the weapons code I was sent for. They didn't know how to process a program not done at RMC. I do think the CAF needs to do better job both educating officers and understanding how to leverage that education. We suck at both right now.

 

[ytz]

I think you should also look at France and the UK. In France, if you wish to become a senior bureaucrat, you have to go to specific universities, depending on the department you wish to work in. It's not quite as clear for England, but if you wish to make it to secretary or under-secretary level, you'd better have gotten a first (or at max a second) from Oxford or Cambridge. You get a first from LSU? Forget it, they don't think LSU is a university.

That's less about ideological control than that just maintaining old fashioned elitism though. How many senior bureaucrats or GOFOs do we have in Canada who weren't educated at a T20 school or RMC?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

RMC is a self imposed facility, not to be confused with a Canadian top academic institution. Besides, RMC can't do it on its own and has to rely on Queen's for many programs.

 

[ytz]

There is no doubt that many universities cater to what many consider basket weaving 101 courses. That's because in any organization truly dedicated to education you want to explore the boundaries. MAGA doesn't want that.

There's also a certain hypocrisy at play. The same folks crying about these schools being "woke" will do anything to get their own kids in. And the new complain is that Asians are ruining top schools by being too competitive. White parents will actually move out if too many high scoring Asians move into a neighbourhood. Almost like their real complaint is not about woke ideology, but that it doesn't benefit them. They want DEI for upper class whites.

I somehow doubt that if Brad's kid got into Harvard or Yale, he'd be telling them not to go because it's too woke.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Ok yeah, looks like this is probably going to be more broadly applicable. What a self-defeating move by DoD.

https://www.cnn.com/2026/02/13/politics/us-military-top-universities-tuition-assistance

The email is within JAG but refers to a Dept of War direction. Interestingly I read the caution going to the UFLEP program people as "friendly advice" warning them of the poisoned atmosphere and the possibility that their self funded schooling may not be recognized by DOD down the road.

I think the OJAG is as aghast at this as anyone (except maybe the MAGA/Trumpists that exist in all organizations down there)

From the horse's mouth (or the other end of the equine alimentary canal).

https://www.war.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/4399812/war-department-cuts-ties-with-harvard-university/

While the War Department announced cessation of academic relations with Harvard, the secretary said in the coming weeks, the department and military services would evaluate similar relationships with other schools.

"[We] will evaluate all existing graduate programs for active-duty service members at all Ivy League universities and other civilian universities," he said. "The goal is to determine whether or not they actually deliver cost-effective strategic education for future senior leaders when compared to, say, public universities and our military graduate programs."

 

[Brad Sallows]

Ability will not out if its been formed by a decade of propaganda. Yes some may escape their indoctrination, most will succumb to it.

I must have lived a unique life. I have managed to pretty much escape, in my public and private life, religious people who are "indoctrinated". The sea in which I swim is almost entirely of university-educated people. Almost to a man/woman those whom I know to be religious have been moderate centrists and conservatives, mostly about their family lives, many liberal about bigger social issues (eg. public social welfare programs). I find it impossible to credit that my experience has somehow been unique. I concluded long ago that the idea of the narrow-minded university-educated religious zealot poisoning public discourse is a myth. The narrow-minded university-educated leftist zealot poisoning public discourse, though - plenty of those.

The fact is conservative political activism exists just as much as the political activism that the conservatives despise.

Not a chance, in the world of post-secondary education in the US.

If there wasn't conservative activism then guys like Charlie Kirk would have been out of a job. Let's call a spade a spade. The problem isn't that there is political activism in universities; the problem is that it's political activism that opposes the Right.

That framing improperly inverts the situation. Overwhelmingly, progressives advance new propositions and conservatives oppose. It is obvious by inspection that on most campuses, progressives are systematically favoured. They do not really have to contend with being shouted down by protestors or have their events cancelled because the administration fears a "security risk".

 

[Brad Sallows]

You are massively misunderstanding what the criticism is.

What people complain about is that those folks get the same SCRIT points as everybody else.

That may be the centre of your universe, particularly if your personal preference would be to adjust scores by institutional reputation. Some people just don't think the qual is worth much.

But instead of actually doing a full load of classes like any normal grad student, half their credits are from CFC.

Why wouldn't CFC work count as credits?

My American colleagues would actually get more SCRIT points for their STEM degrees or for attending more prestigious schools on recognized programs (like a Fulbright or Rhodes Scholar). I got the same points (1 pt) for my two STEM degrees as my buddy who did a part time MA at Carleton. And an even bigger complaint is Second Language is worth 4 pts on the SCRIT.

Clearly you have a beef about SCRIT scoring, but that policy is just a nudge. It isn't the fundamental principle about what kind of post-sec education should be necessary or acceptable.

You know where you see the government demanding that military officers and senior bureaucrats only attend party approved schools? Authoritarian regimes like China.

Sure, but the US government isn't demanding attendance only at party-approved schools. What they're proposing is to limit financial aid for those choosing to attend selected institutions.

 

[ytz]

Clearly you have a beef about SCRIT scoring,

I'm explaining to you the source of the complaint. If I really cared that much about getting promoted I would never never taken a sponsored PG. Was literally told by my boss, "This isn't going to help you get promoted."

That may be the centre of your universe,

See above.

Why wouldn't CFC work count as credits?

There's always been questions about rigour when translating service training to education. But also, it does seem like double counting to get credits for training that gets you promoted to then go into a degree that also helps you get promoted vs the dude who did both on their own.

Sure, but the US government isn't demanding attendance only at party-approved schools.

Sure bud..... That's why the SecDef is literally putting out videos complaining about DEI.... Guess you can only attend schools that the administration doesn't deem to teach DEI, a standard they arbitrarily decide.

And judging by our conversation here, apparently a lecture or two on the impacts of climate change is all it takes to trigger some snowflake to claim "WOKE!".

 

[Brad Sallows]

Sure bud..... That's why the SecDef is literally putting out videos complaining about DEI.... Guess you can only attend schools that the administration doesn't deem to teach DEI, a standard they arbitrarily decide.

What has been reported about the policy is clear. As always, there is a universe of speculations about malign motives to be imagined.

And judging by our conversation here, apparently a lecture or two on the impacts of climate change is all it takes to trigger some snowflake to claim "WOKE!".

The absurdity of your example of the need to incorporate "climate change" into military thinking stands by itself. Attempting to recalibrate goalposts won't change that.

 

[Remius]

What has been reported about the policy is clear. As always, there is a universe of speculations about malign motives to be imagined.

The absurdity of your example of the need to incorporate "climate change" into military thinking stands by itself. Attempting to recalibrate goalposts won't change that.

We are literally shaping our defence policy in the Arctic because of climate change. We would be idiots not to incorporate it into military thinking.

 

[ytz]

We are literally shaping our defence policy in the Arctic because of climate change. We would be idiots not to incorporate it into military thinking.

And among many reasons cited for why Trump thought Greenland should be annexed.