Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]

[navymich]

Considering this is a forum where the majority of the people are military, you might have trouble with your question.  However, for some reason, I am feeling nice this morning, or something.  Here is a site where you should be able to get more information: http://www.navcanada.ca/.  Next time though, why don't you do some researching on your own too.

 

[Air4ce]

I actually got to take the FAC course back in the spring of 03 and I am AEC.  The plan was for me to go to the school that summer as a FAC instructor.  At that time I think the course was being run out of the Infantry School and there were two AEC officers there.  One was the G3 AIR for CTC and the second was an instructor on the FAC course.  Anyway long story short, I only got to do the theory portion of the course due to time constraints and before I could return to take the practical portion someone else was given my posting (Damn!).  On the course there was probably twice as many Sr NCOs as there were officers (mind you this was only one course, so my example isn't proof of anything).  Of the officers on the course, two were AECs and the rest were in the artillery.  They told me when they returned to their units they would be employed as FOO/FACs.  The Sr NCOs were either in the infantry or in the artillery.  I've heard that the course has since been redone with many improvements made to make it more relevant.

 

[Strike]

Quote from: Strike on October 12, 2006, 09:30:52
Then your friends are misinformed.  Any "operator" can be a FAC/JTAC provided they have the required credentials.


Obviously no one said they couldn't.

No, but your "friends" said that the SF controllers were all ARTY, which is completely WRONG!

Horse, I suggest you step away from this, as there are more than a few points here that negate what you have brought to the table.

 

[Garry]

Have to admit that I shared the opinion of many here: if you're going to join the Military, don't do it to get training and then leave.

However, I was talking to a few old guys, and they were quite comfortable with just this very thing. The Military has contract lengths for a reason. Besides, the training our guys get is good- if you stay in Canada to use them, Canada as a whole benefits from the Military training. Win- win overall.

The training you get in the Military as an ATC is universal. The rules that NavCan use are exactly the same as ours- we use the same Manual of Operations (MANOPS), and everything we do is interchangeable. There are a few rules we have that NavCan doesn't (reduced separation for fighters primarily) but everything else is the same.

The big difference is most of our operations are Terminal control. (we work within 60 miles of the airport, mostly involved with landing and departing aircraft) NavCan does this as well, but most of their work is Enroute control (moving aircraft long distances between airports). The concept and control are two entirely different beasts, with similiar skill sets and, again, the exact same rules.

USA control is virtually identical to Canadian control. You can cross train from Canada to the US, but it is a much harder transition than from Military to Civilian (Canadian)  control.

NavCan is hurting big time for controllers, primarily IFR enroute. (They must be, they tried to hire me)

Pay is between 100- 140K, depending on what level you work at (the more traffic you move, the higher pay. Supervisory positions are open to ex-Mil as well)

The traffic that we move is totally different. Military is all pop-up (no forecast), and often there'll be circuit work (take-off, land, repeat) I've yet to have a large recovery that didn't include an emergency or 6. By the way- ever seen the movie "pushing tin"? They get all excited when they have 9 aircraft lined up on final. I've had over 40 lined up on final, with another 60 coming in. I've also been so bored that I'm amazed I'm still here. Feast or famine......

Stress is self induced in my books... no stress in ATC. (you know, since I left the Army NOT ONCE have I been shot at!) However, you MUST be able to think fast, and you can NEVER, EVER give up. You give up, and people die- simple as that. You make a mistake, and people die. You WILL be overwhelmed from time to time- trick is to not let fear enter your voice, and keep on swinging- you will get your nose back above the water, and you will recover all your aircraft. ...and you will say "nothing to it".

As before, good job- but for the old guys. If you're young, go AWC...better yet, go Infantry. Live a little, then when you're ready to grow up, go ATC. It's challenging, but you're home lots.

 

[stefatc]

I'm a BSTAND in Trenton and I can tell you that the job is awesome...! Before beeing in the air force I was in the army! Everything that i could read it's true but I just want to tell you that if you go to the AD side, don't expect to go to the USA, Germanie or somewhere eles because you'll be the youngest guy in the new trade.

Don't forget that in an airfield it's the same you don't have de choice of your posting even if you talk with your carreer manager.

one of the bad side of this trade is I have a lot of friend in this trade but a few in the same base as me!

Stefatc

 

[suraj216]

However, I was talking to a few old guys, and they were quite comfortable with just this very thing. The Military has contract lengths for a reason. Besides, the training our guys get is good- if you stay in Canada to use them, Canada as a whole benefits from the Military training. Win- win overall.

ive read a lot of this site and im glad you saw this thread again.  i was feeling the same way when i mentioned leaving the air force to do "the same thing" for civilian airports.  the detail in your post is great for me and thanks a bunch for the time and effort you put into it.  again, thanks for your post.  i look forward to meeting my recruit in toronto.  after i cross the border i might drive straight there no stops.

 

[3rd Horseman]

No, but your "friends" said that the SF controllers were all ARTY, which is completely WRONG!

Horse, I suggest you step away from this, as there are more than a few points here that negate what you have brought to the table.

If your going to quote get it right.

"On the SF guys I don't know but from what my Arty and Air friends tell me Arty Officers and Snr NCOs fill that roll in the SF. The last FAC course I taught on had two SF Snr NCOs gunners on it and they were being trained as FAC assistants."

  On the subject of FAC from 02 to present I will agree with you I am not in the know (just to be clear I never said I was), and as such have nil comment on what is actually going on. I do though have a valid position on the pre 02 issues and would suspect that not allot has changed in 3 years but again I don't know. If you have the current knowledge then I would be pleased to hear how the CF now employs its FACs. Obviously I would hope that that knowledge comes from a FAC instructor or senior FAC who would know what is going on.

 

[peaches]

I am an AEC officer, an I know for a fact there is at least 1 AEC FAC officer with CSOR, because I know him.........

 

[vonGarvin]

My former neighbour, an armoured captain of the 12e RBC, was trained FAC in the 90s.  Just to add to the pre-02 part.  Unless you meant to say that you don't know from 1902-present re: FAC

 

[3rd Horseman]

3rd Horseman

I did read your post, even read it a second time and guess what, you were wrong then too. Heres some stuff you can hoist on board because things have obviously changed since you left;
-they are training more Snr NCOs(and sometimes Jacks) as FACs than offrs, probably about 3:1, reason being NCOs are in the units longer than offrs
-the primary roll of the artillery(offrs included) is to provide indirect FS, CAS is a secondary duty(see next point)

3rd Horseman current insert - This is one I have to comment on at this point...if they are having this problem (which I am not sure is valid) in coord then it is an issue of expierence.

-they are finding it too hard to coord and control A/C and arty at the same time especially when a lot of the stuff is Danger Close, that is why if it was made a primary job (not trade) it would make things much easier and it already is being looked at
-this whole FAC assistant thing baffles me and I'm calling BS, why would you put someone on the same course as an offr but when it was all done just make them an assistant ? You can believe me when I tell you that NCOs are calling in A/C right now in A-stan and some aren't even qual'd never mine being just an assistant

Well thats about it dude, your probably not going to like what I just wrote but i'm telling you whats going on right now, not used to go on or whatever.....

Rampage,
        No I'm not disliking what you have said, discussion is meant to learn from. Fill out your profile so I know what your level of experience is in particular in the FAC world and I will be pleased to respond to you at the appropriate level.

 

[3rd Horseman]

My former neighbour, an armoured captain of the 12e RBC, was trained FAC in the 90s.  Just to add to the pre-02 part.  Unless you meant to say that you don't know from 1902-present re: FAC

Obviously, I did not say tankers were not FACs, since I taught some of them and did my training with some of them...read my past post quoted as follows "As for the non Arty positions yes ever course had positions for FACs from Inf and Tanks but thy were limited as the primary job of the Arty is and was to provide FAC support to the Army."

 

[vonGarvin]

His role as FAC was due to his employment in Recce Sqn.
Also, several infantryman have been trained FAC.  Not just the current Recce Pl dudes, but also (naturally), the mortar platoon MFCs.
Also, in 2001 (or so) the FAC 'be all' (not SME with the FAS) was an air force major.  Ironic, I suppose, but there you go.

FWIW

 

[3rd Horseman]

von Grognard,

  You are correct in late 01 early 02 the Air FAC SME was an Air Force Maj. He was not a fighter pilot but an Air Weapons guy which was a change. He was the Capt acting as the G3 Air at CTC HQ previous to that. He replaced an acting SME FAC Air that was a Capt helo pilot if I remember right.

 

[rampage800]

3 Horse

Maybe you've heard of a guy named Col King, if your not going to take my word for it

Fire Support Coordination. Fire support coordination using multiple air, indirect and direct assets should be well practiced at sub-unit level, as a minimum. Some company commanders felt overwhelmed at certain stages of the battle by the number of enablers that were pushed down to support the fight.

I don't think its experience or lack thereof, its the fact than when you have UAVs, TUAVs, A/H, A/C and Arty all in the same air space or within close proximity it gets a little (lot) hectic

My next point.

  Another point that will be analyzed by the Lessons Learned team is the employment of the FAC and FOO in the same vehicle while both arty fire and CAS missions are being conducted. To ensure that the call for fire is more effective in the future, the FAC and FOO may need to be employed in separate vehicles.

Like I said, the last point is already being discussed and looked at in places higher than this. My profile well I'll get to it one day but I do have a bit of a schmick about whats going on (currently) in the FAC world both in Canada and in A-stan.

Still learning how to insert quotes and stuff on here as well so if comes out all crazy, just bare with me

 

[George Wallace]

Did those 'Edits' help?

 

[Strike]

If you have the current knowledge then I would be pleased to hear how the CF now employs its FACs.

Given that my issues towards your statement have to do with the composition of those "FACs" within the SF comunity, it is obvious (I would hope) that to discuss anything wrt to their numbers and EXACT composition would be inappropriate and unprofessional.

 

[3rd Horseman]

Strike,

  Agreed, but we can be generic

 

[Armymedic]

Too bad this discussion topic started with a question about air controllers in the SF context, a topic which I am absolutely certian nobody on this site currently is experenced to competantly discuss. Take your discussion elsewhere if you can not answer the original question.

 

[Arron]

I see this thread is a little old, but I would love to weigh in on it.  I have been an ACOP for over 6 years now, mostly on the AD/AWC side with 2 tours in the Sinai drinking obsessively while doing flight advisory.

If you like outcan postings then Ad is the side to go (I cant believe nobody posted some spots to go) including but not limited to Florida, California, Colorado Springs, Denver, Washington, NY, Germany, Alaska and a few other smaller spots.  The ATC side is all of the airbases in Canada.  AD/AWC side is more "operational" orientated and ATC more work orientated ( neither is meant badly).  Aside from going PAR, you can switch between ATC/AD(AWC) throughout your career.  The job can be great, and I have found the job to be very interesting, I guess eye of the beholder type of thing.  Some find it boring, but that 2% of the time that poop hits the fan for real (not some exercise crap) it can be a lot of fun.  But remember like other things, its a lot of normal operations (which is good!) most of the time.  Good thing there are other positions you can do (Tracking, Ident, Radil, weapons, terminal, ground, tower assistant and on and on) to keep things changing and new.  Its a huge trade, no 2 postings are alike at all.

We have a lot of army remusters.... Some have a lot of problems with the switch, for those who are still to "army" orientated and wound up.  If a hard-core army person remusters to ACOP or even air force in general take some riddlin to help your adjustment be a little easier.  If you think something is stupid in the AF, just go with it, 94% of the time there is a reason to it the other 6% its being made up (vs my army experiences that opposite with about 6% reason, 94% made up .

AD(AWC) side usually does start off in North Bay (best 6 years of my life!), but like I said you can switch back and forth.  AWACS slots are MCpl and up (keen MCpl's).  As well some positions you may find you may have a lot of responsibility and a very very very very sensitive security clearance dealing with things that could make your skin tingle.

Great trade, both sides have pros and cons (as well PAR is spec pay, the rest is not) and unless you go par, your not tied down to one specific career advancement.  If you like the above you will enjoy it.  For me talking to a pilot during a emergency either from a tower position or a NORAD related position, gets my blood going!

 

[navymich]

Arron, thanks for some more background on the trade.  Any and all is appreciated.

For others, the next 3's course starts 8 Jan 07.  Just waiting on my offer message....any day now.....lol.