Alberta government thread

[Lumber]

Careful @CBH99 @QV @Jarnhamar

Also curious what their opinions are on circumcisions.

 

[Altair]

Also used for precocious puberty defined as going into puberty before age 8, affecting 1 in every 5000 girls, slightly less frequent in boys. You can imagine how self concision a 8 year old or younger might get if they started going though puberty so early.

The cruelty is a feature, not a bug.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Also curious what their opinions are on circumcisions.

 

[MilEME09]

and then there were 14, more recall petitions approved today, totaling almost 1/3 of the UCP's MLA's. In reality with the current make up of the legislature, if 5 of these are successful the UCP would lose its majority government. Setting a show down of either a general election or the NDP forming government

 

[Altair]

and then there were 14, more recall petitions approved today, totaling almost 1/3 of the UCP's MLA's. In reality with the current make up of the legislature, if 5 of these are successful the UCP would lose its majority government. Setting a show down of either a general election or the NDP forming government

Taiwan has shown me to not have high expectations of these things.

 

[brihard]

and then there were 14, more recall petitions approved today, totaling almost 1/3 of the UCP's MLA's. In reality with the current make up of the legislature, if 5 of these are successful the UCP would lose its majority government. Setting a show down of either a general election or the NDP forming government

Meh. It’s theatre. A succesful recall petition requires 60% of the number of votes cast in the last election. If succesful, that triggers a recall vote- kind of a byelection for just that riding, where it’s a strict thumbs up or thumbs down on the current MLA. Only if that succeeds on a majority of votes cast is the seat vacated.

 

[MilEME09]

Meh. It’s theatre. A succesful recall petition requires 60% of the number of votes cast in the last election. If succesful, that triggers a recall vote- kind of a byelection for just that riding, where it’s a strict thumbs up or thumbs down on the current MLA. Only if that succeeds on a majority of votes cast is the seat vacated.

indeed its a high bar, but take for example the education minister, the bar is about 16000 votes, last election he only got about 11, so if he gets recalled successfully, and they all then show up to vote against him, he's gone

 

[RangerRay]

Taiwan BC has shown me to not have high expectations of these things.

FTFY

From Wikipedia:

Twenty-six recall petitions have been launched as of 2020; of the six completed petitions returned to Elections BC, five were rejected for having too few valid signatures.<a href="Recall election - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>14<span>]</span></a> The sixth, on the recall of MLA Paul Reitsma, was halted after Reitsma resigned in 1998 during the secondary verification stage.

Reitsma was unique in that he was embroiled in a scandal where he was writing fake letters to the editor and embarrassed the constituents. The rest were partisan activists trying to run the last election.

Recall election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CBH99]

Question for those on (or generally on) Alberta's side here (@CBH99, @QV , @Jarnhamar).

You're against gender affirming surgery, correct?

What about gynecomastia? This is where boys develop large breasts, and I don't mean the boys get fat, I mean they have a medical condition that causes them to get large breasts even if they are otherwise "skinny/lean" boys. This causes significant mental health issues in them. They get teased and even have to wear special bras to appear more masuclin.

The real solution? Breast reduction surgery.

But, that would be "gender affirming surgery".

Would you be ok with banning that and forcing these boys to suffer mental anguish until they are 18 and can chose at that time to have the surgery?

So I had gynocomastia as a young teenager, and you are right - it's awkward and uncomfortable for the person who has developed it.

(Pretty sure mine was the result of trying anabolic steroids at a very young age, having no idea wtf I was doing, and the massive consequences of doing so. It's affected me ever since, and that was over 20 years ago now)

It's unreasonably itchy, can definitely be awkward if it's grown to be quite visible, and can actually be somewhat painful - especially if that area is hit or impacted hard. (Carrying a box? Play contact sports? Ouch to both!)

Usually it can be controlled & almost downright eliminated just througy diet and exercise, but having the gland surgically removed does tend to simplify things as well as prevent it from redeveloping.

...

I don't consider that gender affirming care in the same sense

A male that developes some breast tissue to the point it becomes physically uncomfortable and socially noticable isn't having a self-identity crisis, nor was it caused by a mental health crisis.

In the case of gynocomastia, if the doctor thinks the best course ot action is to surgically remove the lump - then go for it.

There aren't any permanent reprecussions from doing so, as far as I know.

....

What I do have a problem with is prescribing drugs to kids that will completely disrupt their natural hormone production during the most developmental period of their lives, and that results in life long consequences.

Like I said, we don't allow kids to go get tattoos because they tend to be there until we pass away - we collectively agree that kids shouldn't be going and getting any tattoos until they are of legal age.

So if we don't let kids get tattoos because of the life long consequences of doing so - why are we letting kids make medical decisions or apply for medical procedures that, at best case scenario, will leave them sterile & dependent on hormones for their entire lives?


I think as a society we are starting to rethink our approach to this whole phenomenon, and rightly so.

- does this kid actually have gender dismorphia, or did they just hear about it because it's the current 'thing' people get psyched about?

- would this kid still be having this identity crisis if not for social media, TV, and the phenomenon constantly being loudly discussed within society?


Obviously gender dismorphia is a real thing, and should be treated the best way we know how.

But is it as wide spread as the media has made it? I don't think so

...

Also, the birth rates & reproductive health of people in the west (especially men) has been spiralling downwards in recent decades, with recent studies showing men to produce more than 50% less sperm than they did even 2 or 3 decades ago.

Combine that with a lot of younger families choosing not to have children at all (primarily due to the rising cost of living & stagnant income) and the west has a serious population collapse on the 'distant but rapidly approaching'' horizon.

Ensuring that some kids today won't be able to have kids of their own tomorrow probably isn't in our best interest (even if it's less than 1%)




Just my 2 cents (and realize some of my info above may very well be wrong)

 

[Altair]

What I do have a problem with is prescribing drugs to kids that will completely disrupt their natural hormone production during the most developmental period of their lives, and that results in life long consequences.

I've posted what the Mayo clinic says about puberty blockers. It pauses puberty and when the individual stops taking puberty blockers, puberty will resume until finished, albeit, at a later time than usual. There are some side effects, but Tylenol has side effects. Chemo has side effects. Lots of things have side effects. But in most cases, the individual is followed by a physician, and side effects can be properly managed.

Like I said, we don't allow kids to go get tattoos because they tend to be there until we pass away - we collectively agree that kids shouldn't be going and getting any tattoos until they are of legal age.

This is incredibly condescending. If my kid showed up and said, dad, my arm is broken, I need help, I take them to a doctor. Dad, I've had headaches for a month, I need help, I take them to a doctor. Dad, I'm thinking about hurting myself, I take them to a mental health physician. And yes, dad, I don't feel like I'm the gender everyone keeps calling me, I take them to a mental health physician and discuss what's going on. Not, screw off junior, you don't know shit. You cannot get a tattoo, you cannot decide your gender now go play with trucks/dolls.

Now not every parent is the same and not every situation is the same, but what I do know is the best people to be having this conversation is

A)the child, who is probably the most confused they have ever been

B)the parents of the child, who need to find a way to navigate this

C) a trained medical professional.

You know who should play no part in this? The god damn government.

So if we don't let kids get tattoos because of the life long consequences of doing so - why are we letting kids make medical decisions or apply for medical procedures that, at best case scenario, will leave them sterile & dependent on hormones for their entire lives?

As explained, puberty blockers do not tend to cause long term issues. Can you point to anything saying they do? Why do you keep repeating this?

I think as a society we are starting to rethink our approach to this whole phenomenon, and rightly so.

If the goal is to have trans kids coming suicide 72 percent more than their already elevalete rates of suicide, yes, we as a society are on the right path for that outcome.

- does this kid actually have gender dismorphia, or did they just hear about it because it's the current 'thing' people get psyched about?

A mental health professional should decide this, not the government.

- would this kid still be having this identity crisis if not for social media, TV, and the phenomenon constantly being loudly discussed within society?

A mental health professional should decide this, not the government.

Obviously gender dismorphia is a real thing, and should be treated the best way we know how.

Yet they are banning things that do work, like puberty blockers.

But is it as wide spread as the media has made it? I don't think so

I think the rates are roughly the same as they always were, it's just the media hyping it up. The percentage of kids who are transgender is still incredibly small.

...

Also, the birth rates & reproductive health of people in the west (especially men) has been spiralling downwards in recent decades, with recent studies showing men to produce more than 50% less sperm than they did even 2 or 3 decades ago.

Combine that with a lot of younger families choosing not to have children at all (primarily due to the rising cost of living & stagnant income) and the west has a serious population collapse on the 'distant but rapidly approaching'' horizon.

Ensuring that some kids today won't be able to have kids of their own tomorrow probably isn't in our best interest (even if it's less than 1%)

So we sacrifice trans kids on the altar of fertility rate of the general public.

Sorry Timmy, sorry Suzie, you cannot transition to the gender you identify as because late stage capitalism has completely screwed over generations of young people and you are now classified as breeders. Never mind all the 99 percent of other healthy, fertile individuals who could be having children who are not due to not being able to afford squat, you will not transition.

Also, we are working off the assumption you don't kill yourself.

Just my 2 cents (and realize some of my info above may very well be wrong)

Well, at least you're self aware.

 

[MilEME09]

AFL snaps back at Smith for suggesting they are behind all the recall petitions

https://www.stalbertgazette.com/local-news/smith-accuses-afl-of-involvement-in-recall-petitions-union-denies-claim-11525600

 

[Jarnhamar]

There are some side effects, but Tylenol has side effects.

Yeah, autism.

This is incredibly condescending. If my kid showed up and said, dad, my arm is broken, I need help, I take them to a doctor. Dad, I've had headaches for a month, I need help, I take them to a doctor. Dad, I'm thinking about hurting myself, I take them to a mental health physician. And yes, dad, I don't feel like I'm the gender everyone keeps calling me, I take them to a mental health physician and discuss what's going on. Not, screw off junior, you don't know shit. You cannot get a tattoo, you cannot decide your gender now go play with trucks/dolls.

My kid wanted tattoos. I said no and they got some anyways. Kitchen stick and poke jobs. Looks like garbage and they got a pretty wicked infection too.

If your 13 year old kid came to you and sad dad I identify as a juggalo from the Insane Clown Posse and I NEED face tattoos. Not having them is negativity impacting my mental health and seeing my face without clown makeup makes me want to hurt myself. Are you going to entertain letting them tattoo their face?

 

[Altair]

Yeah, autism.



My kid wanted tattoos. I said no and they got some anyways. Kitchen stick and poke jobs. Looks like garbage and they got a pretty wicked infection too.

If your 13 year old kid came to you and sad dad I identify as a juggalo from the Insane Clown Posse and I NEED face tattoos. Not having them is negativity impacting my mental health and seeing my face without clown makeup makes me want to hurt myself. Are you going to entertain letting them tattoo their face?

Is your argument agaisnt puberty blockers being gender dysphoria is not any more real than a kid identifying as a juggalo from the insane clown posse?

If that's the case, please go read up on gender disphoria.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Is your argument agaisnt puberty blockers being gender dysphoria is not any more real than a kid identifying as a juggalo from the insane clown posse?

If that's the case, please go read up on gender disphoria.

Kids are convinced of all kinds of things. Who are you or I to say a kid doesn't believe with all their heart and soul that that's who they are if that's what they say they are?

I'm on the fence about puberty blockers. I think you make some very valid points in favor of them and without doing more research I'd lean towards supporting them.

If you want to drop the example then what about just a face tattoo? Your 13 year old tells you with all their heart and soul they need a face tattoo as a form of self expression and it's intrinsic to their identity. If they don't get a face tattoo they're going to start hurting themselves. Would you consider letting them get a face tattoo?

 

[Altair]

Kids are convinced of all kinds of things. Who are you or I to say a kid doesn't believe with all their heart and soul that that's who they are if that's what they say they are?

I'm on the fence about puberty blockers. I think you make some very valid points in favor of them and without doing more research I'd lean towards supporting them.

If you want to drop the example then what about just a face tattoo? Your 13 year old tells you with all their heart and soul they need a face tattoo as a form of self expression and it's intrinsic to their identity. If they don't get a face tattoo they're going to start hurting themselves. Would you consider letting them get a face tattoo?

It's a very incomplete analogy.

The only way this analogy makes sense is if the kid is locked into a binary choice.

If it's a face tattoo and if they don't get a face tattoo, they are forced to are forced into child prostitution.

Now I would suggest that the child do neither until they are at the age that they can decide which choice is best for them.

Doing neither in this case is....puberty blockers.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's a very incomplete analogy.

Yeah, swing and a miss.

Doing neither in this case is....puberty blockers.

Circling back to a comment by QV, there's a handful of just-as-progressive countries as Canada putting more and more restrictions on puberty blockers. Sweden chief among them.

Most progressive countries appear to have centralized care and patients are followed and supported by specialists. In Canada puberty blockers et el are initiated with specialist approval then seem followed by GP's.

Maybe they're not as enlightened as us. Or, maybe specialist oversight is safer and we're a little too willy nilly.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Kids are convinced of all kinds of things. Who are you or I to say a kid doesn't believe with all their heart and soul that that's who they are if that's what they say they are?

I'm on the fence about puberty blockers. I think you make some very valid points in favor of them and without doing more research I'd lean towards supporting them.

If you want to drop the example then what about just a face tattoo? Your 13 year old tells you with all their heart and soul they need a face tattoo as a form of self expression and it's intrinsic to their identity. If they don't get a face tattoo they're going to start hurting themselves. Would you consider letting them get a face tattoo?

In my local community, I have watched dozens of teens switch genders. Most (but not all, I stipulate) switched back to their original gender, a few months or years later.

I think that puberty is a difficult for many teens. It is confusing and a certain degree of freedom to experiment with gender should certainly be afforded. Certainly, for some, it even appeared to be a fashion choice. Not an indictment of their choice.

My concern about puberty blockers and gender affirming surgery seems to be the all/nothing dichotomy that gets set up by zealots on both sides of the debate. Clearly, many teens I have witnessed over past few years were “absolutely certain!” that they were the wrong gender. A few years later, most of them had quietly decided they were not- so puberty blockers would have been a mistake. This is not an indictment of either teens who experimented with gender or teens who decided to change genders- people should be free to live their authentic lives. Some people clearly are misgendered at birth.

Yet, I find myself taking the the cautious approach. Teens who exhibit gender dysphoria should, indeed, must seek professional counselling and need the support of their parents. But, I remain unconvinced that surgery and drugs are warranted except in the rare case.

 

[Altair]

Yeah, swing and a miss.



Circling back to a comment by QV, there's a handful of just-as-progressive countries as Canada putting more and more restrictions on puberty blockers. Sweden chief among them.

Most progressive countries appear to have centralized care and patients are followed and supported by specialists. In Canada puberty blockers et el are initiated with specialist approval then seem followed by GP's.

Maybe they're not as enlightened as us. Or, maybe specialist oversight is safer and we're a little too willy nilly.

Again, the issue I have is the talking out of both sides of their mouth.

Ban those born as male from female sports if they have undergone puberty.

Ban puberty blockers from those born as male, forcing them to go through puberty.

If anyone can tell me how a trans kid can be a female rugby player at 18 with this system in place I will gladly stand down and say, hey, ya, that makes sense.

Currently it doesn't.

And yes, sports is just one aspect of this, but it effects more than that. Future relationships, self worth, body image a lot is on the line for those with genuine gender disphoria. Heavy handed carpet bans are not useful in that sense.

 

[Altair]

In my local community, I have watched dozens of teens switch genders. Most (but not all, I stipulate) switched back to their original gender, a few months or years later.

I think that puberty is a difficult for many teens. It is confusing and a certain degree of freedom to experiment with gender should certainly be afforded. Certainly, for some, it even appeared to be a fashion choice. Not an indictment of their choice.

My concern about puberty blockers and gender affirming surgery seems to be the all/nothing dichotomy that gets set up by zealots on both sides of the debate. Clearly, many teens I have witnessed over past few years were “absolutely certain!” that they were the wrong gender. A few years later, most of them had quietly decided they were not- so puberty blockers would have been a mistake. This is not an indictment of either teens who experimented with gender or teens who decided to change genders- people should be free to live their authentic lives. Some people clearly are misgendered at birth.

Yet, I find myself taking the the cautious approach. Teens who exhibit gender dysphoria should, indeed, must seek professional counselling and need the support of their parents. But, I remain unconvinced that surgery and drugs are warranted except in the rare case.

And the scenario I keep circling back to, and not a soul has addressed it.

Ban those born as male from female sports if they have undergone puberty.

Ban puberty blockers from those born as male, forcing them to go through puberty

Can you explain how a trans kid who wants to be a female runner can do so with this system in place?