Alberta government thread

[QV]

So yes or no.

Is gender dysphoria a real condition in pre pubescent children?

It can be in some and it isn't in others. You'd only know for sure when their pre-frontal cortex has fully formed.

 

[Altair]

It can be in some.

With this as a baseline, what should be done for those children with gender dysphoria?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Yet, I find myself taking the the cautious approach. Teens who exhibit gender dysphoria should, indeed, must seek professional counselling and need the support of their parents. But, I remain unconvinced that surgery and drugs are warranted except in the rare case.

The cautious approach you take versus the scenario presented, would fail the individual.

That said, nobody is able to come up with a answer to said scenario that actually exists in the real world. Naturally because, as the rules apply in Alberta, there is zero solutions for the trans kid in this scenario other than

A) stop having gender disphoria

B) Don't live in Alberta.

You think yourself not a zealot. I remain unconvinced.

You think yourself a reasonable, mature adult. I remain unconvinced.

You are absolutely obsessed with this topic, to an unhealthy degree. You firebomb anyone who expresses even mild disagreement with your position. But I am the zealot.

 

[QV]

With this as a baseline, what should be done for those children with gender dysphoria?

Mental health resources until age of consent for more invasive medical procedures.

 

[PuckChaser]

 

[Jarnhamar]

No. It means being an outlier doesn't automatically mean we are wrong. Many, many countries have been outliers.
1893 New Zealand, women could vote. Massive outlier. Should they have changed their policy because of being an outlier? No.

Being an outlier doesn't denote someone being right or wrong, it's just a position worth examining. "Am I the only one in step?"
If Canada refused to allow children to use puberty blockers, and Sweden, UK, Netherlands et el all allowed it you would be pointing out Canada is the outlier and we should be more like them.

Multiple progressive countries with high quality health systems shifted in the same direction, from the position Canada is currently in. It's worth examining why, not dismissing it.

These countries didn’t reverse their support for trans people. They moved from decentralized prescribing toward:

• multidisciplinary assessments
• pediatric endocrinology oversight
• clearer diagnostic criteria
• long-term follow-up
• specialists vs general practitioners.

You want to make this moral. It's clinical.

Yet puberty blockers are being used in cases other than gender disphoria.
So, is it the medication?
This is again, being lazer focused on trans individuals, and a buffet of reasons are being trotted out to justify it as anything other than hate legislation. I'm just calling a spade a spade

Context is important.
In precocious puberty, blockers restore typical development. In gender dysphoria cases, they pause typical development for identity exploration.

Different contexts justify different levels of assessment. The purpose, expected outcomes, and evidence base are different.

If these didn't result in a lot of individuals losing access to these treatments I would be inclined to believe it.
Better oversight while allowing the same amount of access, sure, wonderful. Increased scrutiny with the result of denying individuals access? I see it for what it is.

I'm suggesting a more structured access similar to what countries very similar to Canada moved to. I'm not advocating for losing access.

This is a solution searching for a problem.

Here's some of the problems I've found/read with the current system:

• uneven access to specialists
• variation in clinical assessment practices
• unclear diagnostic pathways
• lack of long-term follow up data
• reliance on general practitioners for highly specialized decisions

It looks like other countries similar to Canada found problems and sought out a solution, which is is the centralized, specialist approach they moved to.

If people wanted to actually bring science and data to the table I would respond in kind.

You mean like someone bringing up Sweden, Finland, UK's approach which is data driven and the response was that they (countries) just wanted trans kids to die?

Asking for specialist oversight is not ignoring data.

Instead we get a lot of
"I feel"
"I think"
"I believe"
"It's obvious"
"In my opinion"
"Just my two cents"

Yeah. This is a message forum full of people with opinions. Two people can look at the same data and have different responses to it.

Because that's what these conversations are. Ignoring the individuals for some overarching, over reaching, narrative. And maybe my work with these communities and at risk youth has lead to me being incredibly pissed off that so many can be so dismissive to the challenges faced by these individuals that I do turn things into a moral accusations. But I think it's also equally likely that people view the trans community, trans individuals as a monolithic and doesn't take into account how these laws hurt individuals, hurts families, and yes, ends up with dead kids.

There's a good argument for trans youth deserving consistent, specialist care rather than a patchwork of approaches. The countries mentioned Wanting stronger clinical standards isn’t dismissing their challenges. We can care about kids without assuming that any call for oversight equals harm or people want them dead.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Some of whom are Doctors and Parents.

That's one of my concerns. There's some wacky parents and doctors out there. The safeguards for kids dealing with them is lacking.

Pre-pubescent children are very impressionable. Ideologically driven adults can take advantage of that. Here is one example:
//
Appropriate?

That's pretty messed up. Probably included in the reason why mqny gay men and women are trying to move away from association with the 2SLBTQIA++ identity crap.

 

[Altair]

Mental health resources until age of consent for more invasive medical procedures.

Weird that we agree on the process but I assume we disagree on the implementation.

 

[Altair]

Being an outlier doesn't denote someone being right or wrong, it's just a position worth examining. "Am I the only one in step?"
If Canada refused to allow children to use puberty blockers, and Sweden, UK, Netherlands et el all allowed it you would be pointing out Canada is the outlier and we should be more like them.

There are many nations that take a similiar stance to Canada, I think I've only named a few of them once during the course of this discussion.

I would rather talk about this on its own merits rather than looking around and seeing what everyone else is doing.

Multiple progressive countries with high quality health systems shifted in the same direction, from the position Canada is currently in. It's worth examining why, not dismissing it.

These countries didn’t reverse their support for trans people. They moved from decentralized prescribing toward:

• multidisciplinary assessments
• pediatric endocrinology oversight
• clearer diagnostic criteria
• long-term follow-up
• specialists vs general practitioners.

You want to make this moral. It's clinical.

You're right. We should have a federal,centralized, framework.

And it should override Alberta's law and enforce the status quo.

Context is important.
In precocious puberty, blockers restore typical development. In gender dysphoria cases, they pause typical development for identity exploration.

Different contexts justify different levels of assessment. The purpose, expected outcomes, and evidence base are different.

So it's not the medication.

I am glad we agree on that.

I'm suggesting a more structured access similar to what countries very similar to Canada moved to. I'm not advocating for losing access.


Here's some of the problems I've found/read with the current system:

• uneven access to specialists
• variation in clinical assessment practices
• unclear diagnostic pathways
• lack of long-term follow up data
• reliance on general practitioners for highly specialized decisions

It looks like other countries similar to Canada found problems and sought out a solution, which is is the centralized, specialist approach they moved to.

Like I said, I agree. Lets make the standard in 9 provinces the standard and override Allberta.

You mean like someone bringing up Sweden, Finland, UK's approach which is data driven and the response was that they (countries) just wanted trans kids to die?

They know for a fact that this increases suicide in trans kids. They either don't care or worse.

Asking for specialist oversight is not ignoring data.

You're right.

Unless we see a corresponding drop in access, which has been seen in countries putting in these increased oversight.

Yeah. This is a message forum full of people with opinions. Two people can look at the same data and have different responses to it.

I can post data showing increased suicide risk, data showing the safety of puberty blockers from use going back to the 1990s and the response is "I feel like it fucks kids up".

The world is round. "I feel like it's flat"

Please, tell me how I am supposed to engage with this line of reasoning.

There's a good argument for trans youth deserving consistent, specialist care rather than a patchwork of approaches. The countries mentioned Wanting stronger clinical standards isn’t dismissing their challenges. We can care about kids without assuming that any call for oversight equals harm or people want them dead.

And do you think that's what Alberta is doing in this case?

 

[CBH99]

Well, at least you're self aware.

The one thing I do know about this issue is how little I actually care, personally. I can barely pretend to give 2 shits, even on a good day.

It's a phenomenon that should be addressed by those with actual skin in the game, and healthcare professionals


I do think society & the media have made enflamed this issue tho, and have caused confusion in kids who otherwise wouldn't be confused.

This wasn't an issue when I was a kid (born in 84)

There are many nations that take a similiar stance to Canada, I think I've only named a few of them once during the course of this discussion.

I would rather talk about this on its own merits rather than looking around and seeing what everyone else is doing.

You're right. We should have a federal,centralized, framework.

And it should override Alberta's law and enforce the status quo.

So it's not the medication.

I am glad we agree on that.

Like I said, I agree. Lets make the standard in 9 provinces the standard and override Allberta.

They know for a fact that this increases suicide in trans kids. They either don't care or worse.

You're right.

Unless we see a corresponding drop in access, which has been seen in countries putting in these increased oversight.

I can post data showing increased suicide risk, data showing the safety of puberty blockers from use going back to the 1990s and the response is "I feel like it fucks kids up".

The world is round. "I feel like it's flat"

Please, tell me how I am supposed to engage with this line of reasoning.


And do you think that's what Alberta is doing in this case?

My question is (and this is personal, so feel free to tell me to go pound sand)

But what is your position on all of this, Altair??


I've read your consistent replies throughout this topic, and I believe you've made clear what side of the fence you're on...

But if you had to summarize your position on this issue & the Alberta government's position in regards to it - what are your thoughts on it?

 

[Altair]

The one thing I do know about this issue is how little I actually care, personally. I can barely pretend to give 2 shits, even on a good day.

It's a phenomenon that should be addressed by those with actual skin in the game, and healthcare professionals


I do think society & the media have made enflamed this issue tho, and have caused confusion in kids who otherwise wouldn't be confused.

This wasn't an issue when I was a kid (born in 84)

My question is (and this is personal, so feel free to tell me to go pound sand)

But what is your position on all of this, Altair??


I've read your consistent replies throughout this topic, and I believe you've made clear what side of the fence you're on...

But if you had to summarize your position on this issue & the Alberta government's position in regards to it - what are your thoughts on it?

Canada on a whole has been doing a good job in regards to this.

Kids who are confused, in consultation with their parents, seek medical attention, who if they deem it appropriate can prescribe puberty blockers. Kids on puberty blockers can either continue on them or if they come to the realization that they are the gender they were at birth, stop, which most research I've read shows little in terms of side effects.

Then the USA undergoes a culture change and hardening views agaisnt trans individuals. Laws begin to get passed that target trans individuals, and governments start to interject themselves into the medical space.

Now Alberta does the same and rather than go through the process, including court challenges, just uses the notwithstanding clause to trample any opposition.

This is, in my opinion, political, not clinical, ideological, not medical.

And it's not in a vacuum.

New rules on names in school.

New rules on trans in sports.

The rules on sports and the rules on puberty blockers effectively locks trans females out of sports.

I think it's discrimination, plain and simple, and it's harmful to the health of the very kids they say they seek to help.

I am thankful that this is limited to Alberta, and that people can and should move away from Alberta with the health of their children in mind, but am also concerned that if Alberta normalizes this, other, usually right leaning governments will follow suit.

Again, not for medical reasons. For ideological reasons.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I would rather talk about this on its own merits rather than looking around and seeing what everyone else is doing.

Are you in Alberta and that's why this hits close to home?

You're right. We should have a federal,centralized, framework.

Resulting in specialists following patients and making puberty blockers more restricted.

The world is round. "I feel like it's flat"

Of course that's how you feel. The world feels flat to everyone else too.

Blacks are just as smart and capable as any other race. " I have no prejudice in my heart, but the white race is the superior race and the black* race an inferior race and the races must be kept separate by law."
James Eastland*he didn't say black.

This is a Wendy's, sir.

 

[Altair]

Are you in Alberta and that's why this hits close to home?

I am not, but if Alberta normalizes this, there is a non zero chance other conservative governments look at it and emulate it.

Resulting in specialists following patients and making puberty blockers more restricted.

No. The opposite.

Regulate the way 9 other provinces do it.

Of course that's how you feel. The world feels flat to everyone else too.

It's hard to argue data when the person you're talking to is going off of feels

This is a Wendy's, sir.

I removed it because I realized it didn't really add to the conversation.

 

[YZT580]

"FIRST DO NO HARM" From personal experience with my brother. He had an extreme case of hormone imbalance to the point of suicide (almost) He went on hormone therapy for several years up to the age of 18 or 19. Beta blockers and conversion surgery was unheard of in the early 70's fortunately and things eventually balanced out. My answer to this entire argument is encapsulated in the first four words of this entry. When you can prove that your treatment will do no harm then make it legal. Until then, approach with extreme caution

 

[Jarnhamar]

I am not, but if Alberta normalizes this, there is a non zero chance other conservative governments look at it and emulate it.

It's hard to argue data when the person you're talking to is going off of feels

Okay. What I'm seeing is you're upset no one is looking at your data (the data) and declaring you're right, case closed.

You don't want to look around and see what everyone else is doing, despite them being very similar to Canada and making decisions based off data. But you also don't live in Alberta, so you're also kind of looking around at what someone else is doing. You're worried Alberta will set a precedent and other provincial governments might follow. Big picture - you're worried Canada will follow our progressive partners in Europe.

What you're missing is the possibility that you're wrong. You're ignoring other countries have been where we are today and decided to take a more restrictive, more specialized approach. You're lambasting posters here for "going off feels" and ignoring data. But you're turning around and willing to ignore data, potentially because it doesn't support your argument.


Speaking of which, teen suicide is a key element of your argument.

Sweden dramatically tightened access to puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for minors. Suicide rates for the 15–24 age group in Sweden have remained relatively the same over the last 15 years. There's no clear spike in teen or young person suicides by restricting puberty blockers.
The same goes for the UK and Norway. According to your data it's reasonable there should be a spike, especially among transgendered teenagers.

Now as a counter point here, the data doesn't always directly address the small subgroup affected (trans / gender-diverse youth seeking treatment) specifically. Because of limited data (e.g some of these countries don't differentiate between straight teen suicide and transgender teen suicide) it's difficult to assert beyond a reasonable doubt that restricting puberty blockers either harms or protects mental health outcomes in these kids. But all that said, there still isn't a spike in the numbers and no correlation between their more restrictive approach and higher trans suicides or self-harm.

Given the uncertainties, a cautious, evidence-based approach, and one that demands better data, close monitoring, and specialist over watch is the safest approach. A more restrictive approach than what is happening in Canada.

 

[MilEME09]

So alberta is changing the rules, the if you dont renew your Alberta health care card, you lose coverage, I feel like this must break the Canada health act somehow

Renewing health cards won't cost money, but failing to do so will cost coverage - Medicine Hat News

[email protected] The UCP government is proposing a set of changes to the Alberta health card under Bill 11, sweeping health-care legislation tabled Monday. Amendments to the Health Insurance Premiums Act will add a new requirement for Alberta residents to regularly renew their health...

medicinehatnews.com

 

[Quirky]

So alberta is changing the rules, the if you dont renew your Alberta health care card, you lose coverage, I feel like this must break the Canada health act somehow

Renewing health cards won't cost money, but failing to do so will cost coverage - Medicine Hat News

[email protected] The UCP government is proposing a set of changes to the Alberta health card under Bill 11, sweeping health-care legislation tabled Monday. Amendments to the Health Insurance Premiums Act will add a new requirement for Alberta residents to regularly renew their health...

medicinehatnews.com

How is this different from not renewing your drivers license. Get a new card, what's the issue?

 

[MilEME09]

How is this different from not renewing your drivers license. Get a new card, what's the issue?

its free to renew so why not have automatic renewal, people have busy lives, I doubt you'll get a reminder in the mail, so if I forget to renew mine, and the next day I suffer a heart attack, I am no longer covered at the hospital, see the problem? This punishes people who might simply forget, especially the elderly

 

[Altair]

Okay. What I'm seeing is you're upset no one is looking at your data (the data) and declaring you're right, case closed.

Puberty blockers have been used since the 1990s.

The idea that we don't know the side effects and long term effects on the human body after 30+ years of use is.... interesting.

You don't want to look around and see what everyone else is doing, despite them being very similar to Canada and making decisions based off data.

Austria. Norway. France. Belgium. The Netherlands. Croatia. Spain. Switzerland.

All countries that follow similiar guidelines to Canada. Maybe we should follow their lead.

But you also don't live in Alberta, so you're also kind of looking around at what someone else is doing.

I'm have empathy for fellow Canadians.

You're worried Alberta will set a precedent and other provincial governments might follow. Big picture - you're worried Canada will follow our progressive partners in Europe.

Austria. Norway. France. Belgium. The Netherlands. Croatia. Spain. Switzerland.

What you're missing is the possibility that you're wrong. You're ignoring other countries have been where we are today and decided to take a more restrictive, more specialized approach.

Austria. Norway. France. Belgium. The Netherlands. Croatia. Spain. Switzerland.

You're lambasting posters here for "going off feels" and ignoring data. But you're turning around and willing to ignore data, potentially because it doesn't support your argument.

Show data that shows puberty blockers are harmful.

Again, they have been used for 30+ years, there must be a ton of studies showing how harmful they are.

Where is the data?

Speaking of which, teen suicide is a key element of your argument.

Sweden dramatically tightened access to puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for minors. Suicide rates for the 15–24 age group in Sweden have remained relatively the same over the last 15 years. There's no clear spike in teen or young person suicides by restricting puberty blockers.

Considering how small the trans community is, any corresponding spike in suicide won't show up. The study I posted focused primarily on trans teens.

The same goes for the UK and Norway. According to your data it's reasonable there should be a spike, especially among transgendered teenagers.

Now as a counter point here, the data doesn't always directly address the small subgroup affected (trans / gender-diverse youth seeking treatment) specifically. Because of limited data (e.g some of these countries don't differentiate between straight teen suicide and transgender teen suicide) it's difficult to assert beyond a reasonable doubt that restricting puberty blockers either harms or protects mental health outcomes in these kids. But all that said, there still isn't a spike in the numbers and no correlation between their more restrictive approach and higher trans suicides or self-harm.

So I show a study, with results, you post a paragraph with no sources or data.

Given the uncertainties, a cautious, evidence-based approach, and one that demands better data, close monitoring, and specialist over watch is the safest approach. A more restrictive approach than what is happening in Canada.

Austria. Norway. France. Belgium. The Netherlands. Croatia. Spain. Switzerland.