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All eyes on Ignatieff

Parties only  exist because they have been blind siding us with BS. Parties may exist, but that does not mean we cannot change. Crooks, rapest and molesters exist too, and we do not condone their activities, so why should we condone political parties being used as vehicles to high-jack our "government" so the few can exist or those who wish to be social climbers can crawl over top of us using "our tax dollars?"
 
Canadians have the opportunity to change governments - it is called "voting" - the name on the
ballot that gets most of the "X"s wins - been doing it for years. Liberals win most of the time
because they get most of the "X"s - one would never find a discussion like this on a Liberal or
Conservative web site, but that is the type of democracy we have, flawed, annoying, but there
and I cannot see any significant change on the horizon - why? primarily because of Canadian
Media, who have adopted the Liberals. Even the Sun newspapers, advocating the election of
Conservatives are owned by a consortium with very strong direct links to the Liberal Parrty of
Canada. The media started the move towards Ignatieff, not the Party - the media have written
off Manley already - and Stephen Harper is a target. His political career is over, regardless of his
summer sojourn. They will start on Layton when he realizes that he got royally shafted by the
Martin government - what will he do? why not a "Letter to the Editor". MacLeod

 
I had not intended to post another comment on this site, but the points of view are well thought
out and appreciated - but I feel I must point out a common fallacy when discussing "Liberal Politics"
- the Liberal Party and the "Liberal Government" is not the same thing. The Party deals in the
mechanics of elections - the focus is on winning. No one in the Party will care what Ignatieff thinks;
his strength through nomination and election is acceptable only in winning. The Liberal Party thrives
on patronage - the Senate of Canada is an example. With the exception of P.M. Pierre Trudeau,
no Liberal Leader since MacKenzie King has had control and the total loyality of both the Government
and the Party - I doubt in the forseeable future if any Liberal Leader or P.M. will have that same
rapport that Trudeau had (still has in fact).Just a note about Dr. John Godfrey MP; his father was
a Liberal Senator, know him well from Halifax days - he is not anti American - his academic credentials
and his links with Kings College and Dalhousie University precludes that,down town Toronto anti
Amercan nonsense. Brian Mulroney failed because he never had control or real empathy with the
Conservative (PC etc) Party - and then the media (and later the public, prompted by the media)
turned on him - same thing is happening to Harper on a daily basis. I am not debating if the Liberal
Government is good for the country, just talking about the strategy of "elections" - an exercise in
reality. MacLeod
 
JMacLeod: The number of people becoming involved in political parties has fallen off as are those people interested in voting. It is my belief that the demographics will change the way we vote and will change the party system. The old party loyalists at the ballot Box are now taking a second look at the party system, because they have retired and no have the time to look at the way these parties have managed our finances.
Church/ religion is suffering as well because of how they have managed their faith, you cannot molest young alter boys or orphans and expect to get away with it under the name of God, much as political parties have abused "our government" , to feather the nest of the party friends / elite with our tax dollars.
Sure parties will be there, but not as they are now, they will crash, and as far as leadership, like Harper, well the media might like to think it is all about Harper, but Canada never got over Mulroney as we will not get over Cretien.

Parties are responsible for the death of many small business here in Nova Scotia, if they are not using tax dollars, they are putting in place regulation that cripples the small mom and pop operation. We have the Sunday shopping issue, which i think should not be an issue if we live in a free market society as we are led to believe we do, but this is just a myth, unless your a big box store. No Mr. Macleod, parties are slowly turning into ashes, people are starting to see through the media too.

When you see reporters who were once reporting on dirty government are now spin doctors  or employed as speech writers, goodness they are even running for the very parties they have refused to report on. Here in Nova Scotia the number of media types employed with either "government" or their favorite party has become a concern, people are wondering just how much of the news we are not getting.

Maybe we should start putting our X on non of the above and push for more people who are wiling to think out side the party box.
 
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All good points Wayne - you may be right. The younger generation, like my three professional
daughters can change things - frankly I do not know how they vote, rarely talk politics with me
- but a lot of people are fed up with the system. We have undertaken a lot of development
projects in Nova Scotia - we recently refused to submit a Business Plan Proposal call for the
Digby Airport NS, because the bureaucrats who wrote the RFP (all politically appointed) did
not know what they were talking about - saw the same thing in Newfoundland a couple of
years ago - too much of that in the Atlantic region - New Brunswick is also caught up in the
same type of process. MacLeod
 
jmacleod said:
... Just a note about Dr. John Godfrey MP; his father was a Liberal Senator, know him well from Halifax days - he is not anti American - his academic credentials and his links with Kings College and Dalhousie University precludes that, down town Toronto anti
Amercan nonsense ...

I really fail to see how attending Kings College or Dal magically inoculates one against knee-jerk anti-Americanism, especially if, as may be Godfrey's case, it is mostly just pandering to the local electorate's prejudices.

That would just be lying to get votes, wouldn't it?  Maybe that's where his Liberal roots come in.
 
There is a lot of American money in Dalhousie, has been for decades. There are strong academic
links with Dalhousie with it's best medical school and law school in Canada - actually Dr. Godfrey
is a good guy, smart as hell, an asset to the current Liberal government. We helped negotiate
a major Industrial Regional Benefit (IRB) for Nova Scotia on the LLADS and CP140 purchases
which was worth one million US, for the Dalhousie Medical School (Canadian money in American
hands)  MacLeod
 
jmacleod said:
All good points Wayne - you may be right. The younger generation, like my three professional
daughters can change things - frankly I do not know how they vote, rarely talk politics with me
- but a lot of people are fed up with the system. We have undertaken a lot of development
projects in Nova Scotia - we recently refused to submit a Business Plan Proposal call for the
Digby Airport NS, because the bureaucrats who wrote the RFP (all politically appointed) did
not know what they were talking about - saw the same thing in Newfoundland a couple of
years ago - too much of that in the Atlantic region - New Brunswick is also caught up in the
same type of process. MacLeod

John I been to some very interesting meeting where the people have brought forward some great ideas and hopefully your daughters as my children will have the courage to move for change. I spoke with a nurse at the Lunenburg Craft show yesterday and she tells me that as soon as the "government" drafts the legislation , we will have practicing nurses incorporating and they will be doing as our family physicians do now, she tells me it a pay for service is coming.
What shocked me was, the public here in Nova Scotia are not fully aware of this, they think we are still debating how our health system should be set up. The Conservative party have been working with the Medical Society and the College to draft the regulations and of course we know that our Premier is a member of this organization , once again the elite looking out for their own.
 
jmacleod said:
Canadians have the opportunity to change governments - it is called "voting" - the name on the
ballot that gets most of the "X"s wins - been doing it for years. Liberals win most of the time
because they get most of the "X"s

This is a falsehood perpetrated by the Liberal party in an effort to legitimize their tyrrany.  Federally, the Liberals have not ever gotten "most of the "X"s (at least since 1940), but due to constant gerrymandering of a fundamentally flawed system they have legally been able to to govern as if they have.  Canadian's "opportunity" to change governments to anything other than Liberal is restricted by an electoral system that stacks the odds against them (particularly if those Canadians are voting in Alberta or BC).
 
I_am_John_Galt said:
This is a falsehood perpetrated by the Liberal party in an effort to legitimize their tyrrany.   Federally, the Liberals have not ever gotten "most of the "X"s (at least since 1940), but due to constant gerrymandering of a fundamentally flawed system they have legally been able to to govern as if they have.   Canadian's "opportunity" to change governments to anything other than Liberal is restricted by an electoral system that stacks the odds against them (particularly if those Canadians are voting in Alberta or BC).

Yes you are correct, but this does not just apply to one party and you have presented a case that would support proportional presentation and possibly a system with a re-call mechanism built in. This would be a first good step to reforming our political system.
 
Here is an interesting counterpoint from John Ibbitson in today's Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050713/IBBIT13/Columnists/Columnist?author=John+Ibbitson
Ignatieff for Liberal PM? Not in this decade

By JOHN IBBITSON
Wednesday, July 13, 2005 Updated at 8:33 AM EDT

Michael Ignatieff, according to a friend, is quietly appalled by the story that appeared in this paper a couple of weeks ago announcing that he planned to return to Canada and seek public office, with the prime ministership his ultimate goal.

Really, this writer was assured, Mr. Ignatieff is not nearly that far down any political path. A few well-meaning but ill-advised friends have been promoting the idea, but the director of the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at Harvard University is working on a book and happy with his job, the friend professed.

So, does that mean he will not be a candidate in the next election? The friend paused before responding: Declarations of any kind, at this point, would be premature.

The possibility that one of Canada's most distinguished intellectuals and writers may return to his native land and enter political life has Liberal insiders in a tizzy, which speaks volumes about the current state of the Liberal Party.

Perhaps for the first time in this country's history, there is no member of a Liberal cabinet who has serious prospects of succeeding the Prime Minister. Paul Martin banished his potential challengers -- including John Manley and Allan Rock -- from the front bench, and all of his most senior and most competent ministers are either unilingual anglophones or francophones who lack either the ambition or the prospects to lead the party.

Mr. Ignatieff, on the other hand, is a fine writer, with a mind to match, and is free of partisan political encumbrances. He espouses an agenda of social justice and national unity reminiscent of Pierre Trudeau, while also embracing the manifest civilizing destiny of the United States. To a party and a country impatient with the tired old men who have led us in recent years, Mr. Ignatieff could be a breath of rejuvenation.

The problem is, in politics things don't work that way.

Let's set aside the fact that the country has moved beyond any Trudeauesque romances of a centralized federation married to an enhanced social charter, or that the people most likely to cling to such an outdated vision would be appalled by Mr. Ignatieff's support for the U.S. invasion of Iraq or the missile-defence program. Let's also set aside the fact that, as one colleague observed, Mr. Ignatieff writes in The New York Times using the first person plural.

Mr. Ignatieff's political prospects would be poor simply because the Liberal Party has changed over the past 40 years. Mr. Trudeau could emerge as a philosopher king/prime minister because senior Liberals decided the party and the country needed him, and they pulled the necessary levers to ensure his victory at the 1968 leadership convention, as Mr. Martin's father bitterly discovered.

But Paul Martin came to power through a very different path. He schmoozed, he wooed, he connected. He established a core campaign team in each province, then extended that network to the riding level. He became PM, in essence, by taking control of the mechanism of delegate selection.

Mr. Ignatieff has no meaningful connections within the Liberal Party. Even if senior Liberals were to conclude that a Harvard intellectual was best suited to lead the party, such an elite could never deliver the delegate support Mr. Ignatieff would need. Other potential contenders, including Frank McKenna, John Manley and Martin Cauchon, already have informal organizations on standby. If Mr. Ignatieff were to try to organize against them, they would toast him, butter him lightly, and have him for breakfast.

Nevertheless, the Liberal Party desperately needs someone who understands the United States. Here's hoping the Harvard don returns to Canada and runs in the next election. If the Liberals win again, he will make an outstanding addition to cabinet. But prime minister? Not in this decade.

© Copyright 2005 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Some army.ca members will have noted that I cite Ibbiston quite a lot.  I do so because, broadly, I find much of interest in what he has to say.

I suspect, despite Mr. MacLeod's assurances about senior Liberal insiders providing Ignatieff with a 'power base', that Ibbitson is correct when he says: â ? Other potential contenders ... already have informal organizations on standby. If Mr. Ignatieff were to try to organize against them, they would toast him, butter him lightly, and have him for breakfast.â ?

If Ibbitson is right and the Liberal brain-trust is en-route to concluding that: "...  the Liberal Party desperately needs someone who understands the United States ...â ? as its next leader (the implication being that Martin does not and Chrétien (and the Chrétienistas) did not) then Manley is the man, I think.

Caveat lector:  I know John Manley, I like him and I respect him.  I do not know him well enough to call him a friend, but well enough that when we are in the same place, at some conference or social event, we usually take a few (of his busy) minutes to chat about a few matters of mutual interest.  I think Manley was, head and shoulders, the best minister in Chrétien's cabinet - including Martin; not the best politician or best campaigner, just the best minister.  I think Manley was an excellent Industry Minister - maybe the best since CD Howe; he was a very, very good foreign minister - the best since St. Laurent and that includes Mike Pearson (who didn't, really, do much, as foreign minister - his reputation was made as a very senior bureaucrat, where he excelled); and a good enough finance minister, too.  I think he might be a good prime minister and a good Liberal Party leader: willing and able, I believe, to wring out the last vestiges of the Trudeauistic nonsense which has prevented me from voting Liberal, ever, since the mid 1960s.


 
An interesting piece by Ibbotson, but inconsequential. Liberal Party are focused on Ignatieff
because they see him clearly as a winner - Ignatieff however may not want to enter the tough
ruthless world of Liberal politics (who could blame him). Alan Rock well known to us is an impressive
guy, but I doubt if he has any interest in seeking the Leadership now, and could not win in any
event - Manley is not in the picture. A competent politician and Minister, but rated average -has
no chance of Liberal Leadership (and he knows it). The Party will be focused on new faces, from
in and out of the present Liberal government, and a new direction (what ever that will be, your
guess is as good as mine) and finally Frank McKenna. My personal opinion is that he will not offer
because he cannot win - and why should he. A small town lawyer and small Province Premier
is a major player in the world of commerce, and highly rated in the U.S. a long way from a law
practice in the former Newcastle N.B. - but he would make a first rate PM. Macleod
 
The bench strength of the Liberals seems to be at an all time low, the Martinis haven even driven out lightweights like Sheila Copps and Alen Rock. I suspect the "buzz" around the good doctor is an attempt to get some fresh blood in the Party, but as has been pointed out in this and the new thread, there are people with residual leadership ambitions, and the internal split between the Martinis and Creitienistas would make it very difficult for the good Dr. to walk in and clean house.

It is a pretty pathetic picture of how debased our politics has become; a rudderless and nearly leaderless Liberal Government, backed by a party currently firmly in the grip of Mr Dithers is still the party with the highest numbers in the polls.
 
Someone will have to explain the preceding two posts to me.  Are they some sort of popular cultural reference?
 
At the risk of getting back on topic: This is a fairly lengthy, interesting take from Andrew Potter (see: http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/politicsphilosophyandsociety/0,6121,1498526,00.html ) in today's National Post.  The 'meat' - the reasons Potter reckons the Liberals will, indeed must reject Igantieff are near the end: Ignatieff is too nuanced, too independent, too thoughtful ... quite unable to work within the party's power structure.

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=2291eefd-6340-4b90-a502-b790ccfa7847
Philosophers make bad kings
Canadian politics is fuelled by dogma, not reason. Michael Ignatieff, stay away

Andrew Potter
National Post

Thursday, July 21, 2005

Canada is a rather un-philosophical place, usually described as a nation of institutions, not ideas. No revolution for us, no grand declaration or statement of founding principle. At best, we are the existentialists of the community of nations, always going on about: "Who are we? Why are we here?" As a result, Confederation is a rickety contraption at the best of times, a hesitant set of arrangements that manages to hang together in defiance of history, geography and perhaps even reason itself.

How to explain, then, our ongoing fascination with the figure of the philosopher king?

Pierre Trudeau is the avatar of our obsession. He was indeed a rare figure in Canadian politics: an intellectual and a polarizing figure in a country long-accustomed to the do-nothing-by-halves-that-you-can-do-by-quarters leadership of men like Macdonald, King and Diefenbaker. Though the Czechs since Havel might beg to differ, Liberal MP Don Boudria was not far off the mark when he suggested, after Trudeau's death, that he was "the closest any Western country of the modern age ever had to a philosopher king." Ever since Trudeau left office, Canadians -- or at least, Liberals -- have been moping around waiting for a replacement, for an inspirational leader who would join the twin virtues of reflection and action to a statesman-like and principled approach to government.

In its June issue, Saturday Night magazine ran a profile of the University of Toronto philosopher and public intellectual Mark Kingwell. In passing, the writer opined that Kingwell might just be the philosopher king we've been looking for: "Given his looks, not to mention his talent for thinking on his feet and putting big ideas into compelling language when the cameras are on, he may very well have missed his calling. In a slightly different world, the man might have made an exemplary prime minister."

Even with the "slightly different world" hedging, it is no slight to Kingwell to call that a long toss. A more realistic candidate arrives in the figure of Michael Ignatieff, currently the director of the Carr Center on Human Rights at Harvard. Invariably described as dashingly handsome (in 2003, Maclean's named him Canada's "sexiest cerebral man"), the cosmopolitan Ignatieff is a member of the closest thing Canada has to a landed aristocracy. His father, George, was a distinguished mid-century diplomat who was later Chancellor of the University of Toronto. He is the great-grandson of George Munro Grant, the famous principal of Queen's University, and his uncle was the philosopher George Parkin Grant, author of the nationalist classic, Lament for a Nation.

This past March, Ignatieff was the keynote speaker for the Liberal party's national biennial convention. Afterward, it was suggested that Ignatieff is positioning himself for a run at politics, perhaps eventually the leadership of the Liberal party. In a tremendous bit of puffery in The Globe and Mail last month, Michael Valpy wrote: "To those Liberals urging him to enter political life, Mr. Ignatieff is seen as both a philosopher-king in Mr. Trudeau's iconic mould and someone who would generate excitement around progressive ideas in a party seen as having become lacklustre, drifting and visionless under [Paul] Martin."

Like many bad ideas, we owe this one to Plato. With some trepidation, Socrates, Plato's leading character, suggests in The Republic, "Until philosophers are kings, or the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy, and political greatness and wisdom meet in one, and those commoner natures who pursue either to the exclusion of the other are compelled to stand aside, cities will never have rest from their evils -- nor the human race, as I believe -- and then only will this our state have a possibility of life and behold the light of day."

What Plato is suggesting is the need to combine knowledge with political power. As against the mere "opinions" that guide us in the transient world of appearances, the true king needs the wisdom that comes with knowledge of the unchanging and eternal forms, of the nature of man, and of the ideal state in which he ought to live. It is precisely because the philosopher has access to this sort of transhistorical knowledge that he is best fit to rule.

It is not hard to see why just about everyone, philosophers included, were leery of Plato's scheme right from the start. To begin with, it was clear that philosophers would make terrible rulers, while rulers tended to be the most unreflective sorts of men. Moreover, people like Machiavelli and Hobbes thought that philosophy simply had no role to play in politics, while Kant and Spinoza both worried that an association with politics would have a corrupting influence on philosophy.

Yet even if Plato's specific project was not taken too seriously, the general idea of a perfectly regulated society, ordered in accordance with eternal laws and a theory of human nature, hung around. Eventually, it was picked up with enthusiasm by some members of the French Enlightenment, and, later, by Marxists.

In her recent book, The Roads to Modernity, Gertrude Himmelfarb points out that the animating ideal of the French Enlightenment was not liberty, but reason. For the philosophes, the function of reason was to reveal the universal principles of the nature of man and society, independent of history, culture and circumstance. Diderot and Voltaire both endorsed the ideal of the enlightened despot who would translate these absolute and unimpeachable dictates of reason into practical politics. In the entry for "philosophe" in the Encyclopedie, Diderot wrote: "How happy the people would be if kings were philosophers or philosophers kings."

Himmelfarb recognizes it would be unjust to blame the Revolution and the subsequent Terror directly on the philosophes, since most of them were dead by the mid-1780s. Yet the influence from their writings was certainly there, especially through Rousseau's impact on Robespierre. In The Social Contract, Rousseau called for a civil religion, a political "reign of virtue" that would force concrete individual wills to conform to the impossibly abstract "general will." Accordingly, the Revolution was an attempt at the root-and-branch transformation of French society. It was to be the recreation of the human race, the perfection of man and the making of the world anew.

It was also supremely undemocratic. The whole notion of a philosopher kingdom -- that is, the rule of reason -- is at odds with the essential elements of democratic self-rule: popular sovereignty, representative government and the separation of powers. This didn't exactly faze the philosophes. Most of them subscribed to some version of the these royale, which rejected any institutional change that would diminish the authority and power of the king.

Himmelfarb contrasts this with the intellectual bedrock of the American Revolution, which was founded on the inevitable fact of human imperfection. Recognizing this, the Americans gave themselves a constitution full of checks and balances that were designed precisely to preserve individual liberty despite these imperfections. That is, they looked to the actual practices and beliefs, the "habits of heart and of mind" that were at work in the colonies, and built their institutions in light of those practices.

In endorsing the pragmatic American reliance on the facts on the ground as against the utopian impulses of the French, Himmelfarb echoes Aristotle's original objection to Plato's notion of the philosopher king. Aristotle saw that even the wisest philosopher could not do better than the "anonymous wisdom" of the laws, customs, and traditions of a civilized country. In the end, the utopian wish for philosopher kings is a disguised wish for tyranny and terror.

Canadians certainly have no reason to fear a Robespierrean Terror or a Marxist revolution from our philosopher kings. Trudeau's invocation of the War Measures Act continues to enrage Quebecers, but the after-image of tanks in the streets of Montreal can't obscure the fact that the exercise was little more than the harassment of soft targets, aimed not so much at suppressing an insurrection as rallying public support to the federalist cause. And even though Trudeau was famously soft on communists and was in no way hostile to economic engineering, he could really do no better than the short-lived National Energy Program.

The irony is that Trudeau was at his most successful as a leader when he was at his least philosophical. Rather, the desire among Canadians for a new philosopher king in the Trudeau mould expresses, more than anything, a desire for a return to his "just watch me" style. Canadians long for a leadership of vision informed by principle, but firmly grounded in the realities of our geopolitical situation. Politics may be the art of the possible, but we rely on our leaders to shape its contours, to test the limits of what might be achieved, to take us places we thought were out of reach.

This is the underlying appeal of someone like Michael Ignatieff. By all accounts, his speech to the Liberal convention was terribly exciting, elaborating a national vision that defended a strong central government, advocated the decriminalization of marijuana and insisted that Canada be a player in continental missile defence and global security. It was widely described as "Trudeauvian" in spirit, and as a thinly veiled critique of the dithering tendencies of the current regime.

But would this appeal translate if he took office? Since Michael Valpy first started flying the Ignatieff-for-PM kite, a number of journalists have pointed out just how unsuitable he would be for the job. Although he returns to Canada on a regular basis, Ignatieff has barely lived here as an adult. His loyalties are somewhat suspect, since (like the columnist Mark Steyn) he tends to use the pronoun "we" when speaking both to American and Canadian audiences. Finally, Ignatieff is an outsider who has simply not paid his dues to the Liberal party establishment.

Yet even if these could be sidestepped, Ignatieff faces one insuperable obstacle: He's too philosophical. Politics demands adherence to a party line. By contrast, the essence of the philosophical mind is not that it adheres to some dogmatic conception of reason or truth, but that it is open to facts and to reasons. The true philosopher will admit to the possibility of partial truths, is willing to follow his arguments where they lead, and will revise his beliefs when the facts change.

This flexibility is a defining feature of Ignatieff's thought. He may be one of a new school of liberal interventionists advocating the projection of power abroad in the name of human rights, but he is no ideologue. In the June 26 issue of the New York Times Magazine, Ignatieff published an essay entitled "Who Are Americans to Think That Freedom is Theirs to Spread?" The nuanced argument is critical of how George Bush is proceeding in Iraq, yet full of hope and admiration for the underlying goals.

In a profile published in these pages back in April, Tony Keller suggested Ignatieff's views could be "a bracing tonic for the Canadian body politic." He would lead us out of our smug anti-Americanism and help us accept our global responsibilities.

This is doubtful. More likely, this sort of thinking will be rejected by the Canadian political immune system. Whether it is about health care, missile defence or the war on terror, Canadians are incapable of having an adult discussion, and woe to any politician who dares do anything so radical as obey reason. Our political discourse takes place in a dogma-addled environment that would swallow up an intellectual alien like Ignatieff, and it would be a shame to see him forced to mouth the banalities that are required for survival in Canadian federal politics.

Immanuel Kant was right when he opposed the notion of the philosopher king, on the grounds that "the possession of power is inevitably fatal to the free exercise of reason." We should certainly be wary of any philosopher who would be king. But in the case of Michael Ignatieff, he should be wary of us.

© National Post 2005
 
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