All Things AB Separatism (split fm Liberal Minority Government 2025 - ???)

[Good2Golf]

Couple of initial observations...
~33% of votes were in and the verdict was called. I found this somewhat ironic as it felt more like a federal election with the advance votes being the bulk of the tallied results....just made me think of the timezone implications on federal votes.

Interesting indeed. Do as I say/demand…not as I do.

 

[childs56]

You’re welcome, friend!

Usually when people talk about “direct democracy” it’s more in the sense of binding ballot initiatives like we might see in some U.S. states, or Swiss direct-democratic initiatives that will actually impact law.

A non-binding referendum is little more than a wastefully expensive way to take the population’s temperature on one or more issues that they could have just polled… But then again, in yesterday’s case it’s more a piece of UCP political theatre than really moving any needles.

Considering DS has been talking about the nine questions openly for the last while. Putting in limitations and cost recovery for services. Which use to happen but somehow this past few years went to the wayside.
For example if you use our health services and you are not a citizen of Alberta you would pay up front. IE if one needs to visit the walk in clinic, they would have to pay a Dr fee upfront, then claim it back through their provincial system.
If they could not pay for the service then they would have to get pre authorized for such. If it is an emergency they would be looked after, the costs dealt with later. Similar processes were done for Immigrants where the cost would be recovered from the Federal government and or paid by the person.
This is similar to school attendance. Depending on how a person came to Canada would change who pays for the service. At the end of the day someone pays for that seat in the classroom. It is no different than many other countries. If you are not a citizen you have to pay for services rendered.

When we look at funding models for public services they are based on the population as indicated through the census reports.
This has been causing lots of funding to be misused in areas. Both excessive and underfunding.
With a province such as Alberta where a surge of people go to where the work is it has major effects on all public services both municipal, provincial and federal. Then when the Federal government surged immigrants across the provinces and then told the provinces to figure it out without the proper funding. Well some had the ability to grow basic services to deal with it. Others had a very tough time.

Generally speaking we have not been able to perform a cost recovery for services required across the country and hence why we are seeing critical system overwhelmed. Healthcare across the country has slipped in service levels, Policing, fire, sewage treatment, schools. etc have falling. Because the cost to grow theses serviced need to come from somewhere.

If you increase the population, do not increase the tax base then (those people are being subsidized by tax dollars) the money does not magically appear. To place that burden upon the provinces and municipalities without being able to recover that money is a disaster waiting to happen.

Some of those questions are also legally dubious:

Q2 - You can't deny someone healthcare based on their citizenship or immigration status
Q3 - Same thing as Q2

You can't but you can ensure someone somewhere covers the cost. If it forces the federal government to slow down immigration to manageable levels then it will make things better.
India said the other day Canada will need fifteen million immigrants to keep up with projected investment requirements.
We are struggling to manage an increase of three to four million over 6 years. IF we doubled those numbers our institutions would crumble.

 

[MilEME09]

You can't but you can ensure someone somewhere covers the cost. If it forces the federal government to slow down immigration to manageable levels then it will make things better.
India said the other day Canada will need fifteen million immigrants to keep up with projected investment requirements.
We are struggling to manage an increase of three to four million over 6 years. IF we doubled those numbers our institutions would crumble.

Non-residents made up less than 3% of ER visits last year. This is a non issue in AB, its a distraction and scapegoat for the provinces mismanagement of the HC file

 

[QV]

I think this article hits all the right chords.

Carson Jerema: Albertans choose Canada. Perhaps Canada could choose us back

The separatists would be advised to redirect their efforts towards asserting Alberta's interests within the country

nationalpost.com

Particular the last few lines: "As for the rest of the country, please note that Albertans have clearly and forcefully chosen Canada. After more than a decade of direct attacks from Ottawa, and after more than a century of being forced to demand the same treatment as other provinces, it would be nice if other Canadians also chose us."

I believe support for independence started to die off with PMMC's initiatives and a positive, hopeful, perspective for those outcomes. If the outcomes aren't realized, then it will be interesting to see where the polling is on this down road. Meanwhile... this:

'Very much an open question': Carney's West Coast pipeline project could run into legal pitfalls

The pipeline, called Pacific Link, is the first project to be designated within the national interest under the government's Bill C-5.

nationalpost.com

 

[childs56]

Non-residents made up less than 3% of ER visits last year. This is a non issue in AB, its a distraction and scapegoat for the provinces mismanagement of the HC file

Where did you get your numbers from?
It is a huge issue in Alberta. Those who think it is isnt are part of the problem.
What's a break down of what communities did those 3% of TW use services?

The government said they had spent $400 million dollars on visits to ER by 30000 Temporary residents last year. That's not chump change.
This does not include all the Walk in Clinics and other Dr visits that happen.

Add in the infrastructure costs, schooling and start looking at funding shortfalls.

We have to figure out a better way.
One can blame system failures and say how bad things are here in Alberta. Except theses shortcomings are across the country. Through various governments.
Surging populations is not going to go well if the infrastructure is not there to support it. We have seen this across the country where immigration has reached levels unseen, it has put more strain of systems already struggling.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Where did you get your numbers from?
It is a huge issue in Alberta. Those who think it is isnt are part of the problem.
What's a break down of what communities did those 3% of TW use services?

The government said they had spent $400 million dollars on visits to ER by 30000 Temporary residents last year. That's not chump change.
This does not include all the Walk in Clinics and other Dr visits that happen.

Add in the infrastructure costs, schooling and start looking at funding shortfalls.

We have to figure out a better way.
One can blame system failures and say how bad things are here in Alberta. Except theses shortcomings are across the country. Through various governments.
Surging populations is not going to go well if the infrastructure is not there to support it. We have seen this across the country where immigration has reached levels unseen, it has put more strain of systems already struggling.

Question - do those Temporary Workers pay into CPP, EI, Federal Taxes, Provincial Taxes?

I know that the migrant farm workers down in Kingsville/Leamington pay directly into those 4 buckets - and are able to qualify for OHIP if they are a part of SAWP or TFW. If they are paying into the system, you have a problem with that? Why?

 

[markppcli]

Where did you get your numbers from?
It is a huge issue in Alberta. Those who think it is isnt are part of the problem.
What's a break down of what communities did those 3% of TW use services?

The government said they had spent $400 million dollars on visits to ER by 30000 Temporary residents last year. That's not chump change.
This does not include all the Walk in Clinics and other Dr visits that happen.

Add in the infrastructure costs, schooling and start looking at funding shortfalls.

We have to figure out a better way.
One can blame system failures and say how bad things are here in Alberta. Except theses shortcomings are across the country. Through various governments.
Surging populations is not going to go well if the infrastructure is not there to support it. We have seen this across the country where immigration has reached levels unseen, it has put more strain of systems already struggling.

https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/assets/about/publications/ahs-pub-pr-2023-24-q4.pdf

So around 5 million ambulatory visits a year, not including ER / Ambulance / etc, of which the premier says 30,000 are from temporary workers. That works out to around 0.6%.

 

[Nvlgzr]

https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/assets/about/publications/ahs-pub-pr-2023-24-q4.pdf

So around 5 million ambulatory visits a year, not including ER / Ambulance / etc, of which the premier says 30,000 are from temporary workers. That works out to around 0.6%.

From that same report ER visits were up to 2million/year. Therefore the ER visits by TFW is 1.5%

 

[HavokFour]

PMMC's statement.

October 20, 2026
Ottawa, Ontario


“On October 19, Albertans made a clear choice. They chose unity, to build together, and to take care of each other.

Above all, Albertans chose Canada.

While votes on all questions continue to be tallied, tonight’s results on the defining question of separation mean that Albertans and all Canadians will move forward together with renewed purpose and high ambition.

We are building that future, bigger and faster than ever before. Canada is securing new trade partners around the world, fast-tracking major, nation-building projects in every part of the country, and unleashing our full potential as a global energy superpower with Alberta at its core.

Canada is so much greater than the sum of its parts. Now it is our opportunity to take all that we have been given as Canadians – and we have been given the greatest country in the world – and make our country better for all of us.”

Statement by Prime Minister Carney on Albertans choosing to build a stronger Canada, together

We are building that future, bigger and faster than ever before. Canada is securing new trade partners around the world, fast-tracking major, nation-building projects in every part of the country, and unleashing our full potential as a global energy superpower with Alberta at its core.

www.pm.gc.ca

 

[MilEME09]

Where did you get your numbers from?
It is a huge issue in Alberta. Those who think it is isnt are part of the problem.
What's a break down of what communities did those 3% of TW use services?

The government said they had spent $400 million dollars on visits to ER by 30000 Temporary residents last year. That's not chump change.
This does not include all the Walk in Clinics and other Dr visits that happen.

Add in the infrastructure costs, schooling and start looking at funding shortfalls.

We have to figure out a better way.
One can blame system failures and say how bad things are here in Alberta. Except theses shortcomings are across the country. Through various governments.
Surging populations is not going to go well if the infrastructure is not there to support it. We have seen this across the country where immigration has reached levels unseen, it has put more strain of systems already struggling.

Here's just one study along with the above data.

Temporal trends in emergency department volumes and crowding metrics in a western Canadian province: a population-based, administrative data study - PMC

Emergency Department (ED) crowding is a pervasive problem, yet there have been few comparisons of the extent of, and contributors to, crowding among different types of EDs. The study quantifies and compares crowding metrics for 16 high volume ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yes everything costs but making non residents pay doesnt magically solve the issue, AHS would take in barely any money and it may discourage people from getting medical care which costs the economy more in the long term.

Fact is the population has doubled since 1990 in ab, but hospital beds space has only increased about 13%. Thats a capacity and mismanagement issue

 

[markppcli]

From that same report ER visits were up to 2million/year. Therefore the ER visits by TFW is 1.5%

The Premier said hospital visits not ER visits.

To @MilEME09 s point, the last hospital built in Edmonton was Grey Nuns in 1988 when the metro population was 500000.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You’re welcome, friend!

Usually when people talk about “direct democracy” it’s more in the sense of binding ballot initiatives like we might see in some U.S. states, or Swiss direct-democratic initiatives that will actually impact law.

A non-binding referendum is little more than a wastefully expensive way to take the population’s temperature on one or more issues that they could have just polled… But then again, in yesterday’s case it’s more a piece of UCP political theatre than really moving any needles.

Not to mention AB cant unilaterally change the constitution. So 1-9 are pretty moot

Just for clarity, Qs 6 - 9 started like this:

Do you support the Government of Alberta working with the governments of other willing provinces...

I don't see the desire for unilateral change, yet, but perhaps finding common ground in the confederations to tackle issues.

 

[RangerRay]

Non-residents made up less than 3% of ER visits last year. This is a non issue in AB, its a distraction and scapegoat for the provinces mismanagement of the HC file

Didn’t Smith demand Trudeau increase immigration/TFWs to Alberta only a few years ago?

 

[mariomike]

Yes everything costs but making non residents pay doesnt magically solve the issue, AHS would take in barely any money and it may discourage people from getting medical care which costs the economy more in the long term.

AHS hits their residents pretty hard on ambulance billing.

• 
  
• 250: Patient assessment without transport
• $385: Patient assessment with transport.

A third-party Call Originator could dial 9-1-1 on a resident. No transport. Bill customer, who didn't even want 911 , $250.

$250 for something you never asked for?

Transport is $385.

In Ontario, No Transport = No Charge.

Put you back into bed for free, if thats what you want. We've even cut their grass and shovelled their snow for free.

Transport is only $45.

 

[PrairieFella]

Didn’t Smith demand Trudeau increase immigration/TFWs to Alberta only a few years ago?

Alberta Urges Canadian Federal Government to Double Its Immigration Allotment For 2024 - Canada Immigration and Visa Information. Canadian Immigration Services and Free Online Evaluation.

Alberta’s Premier Danielle Smith has said that federal immigration levels are too low and are affecting her province’s ability to create jobs, grow the economy, and provide aid for those fleeing the violence in Ukraine.

immigration.ca

 

[McG]

if you use our health services and you are not a citizen of Alberta ...

Provincial citizenship is not a thing. Canadians have Canadian citizenship, and can be residents of any province or territory.

 

[childs56]

Question - do those Temporary Workers pay into CPP, EI, Federal Taxes, Provincial Taxes?

I know that the migrant farm workers down in Kingsville/Leamington pay directly into those 4 buckets - and are able to qualify for OHIP if they are a part of SAWP or TFW. If they are paying into the system, you have a problem with that? Why?

I meant to use non-permanent residents' as opposed to TW.

As for the farm workers paying into those, that isnt how it always was. But it is good to see the program has been changing to provide suppports.
TFW program was to bring in labor as required for short term requirements where a Canadian worker could not be found to fill the job. The employer was suppose to be responsible for healthcare and any other costs associated with those workers. These jobs are designed to be non permanent employment. They use to be exempt from paying parts of the taxes, etc under the program.
They also were not designed for those workers to bring their family's with them.

Non permanent residents can reflect many people working/ not working, living off government subsidized programs fully, partially or not at all. Funding was suppose to be provided through various government models and or the person themselves paying. This was to cover off their healthcare, schooling infrastructure while they found employment and or residency/ Citizenship.
The system got overwhelmed with the shear numbers and funding was delayed/clawed back and or non existent and cost plus was not accounted for due to the need to provide the services and confusion over who was paying. The federal government told the provinces to figure it out. The system was overwhelmed. Not just in Alberta but across the country.

Doug Ford spoke out about the surge of immigrants causing shortage of services available. The PM of Quebec also spoke out in regards to this matter.

What's the actual solution, don't really know. Funding/ costs has to be accounted for one way or another. Money needs to be provided. Who pays that money is the big question.
You can not grow a population without funding the services properly. You can not keep adding tax's to pay for those services without having pushback.
It might only be 3% or less of the population using that particular service. When we are looking at a large amount of money to fund that program it is not fair to ask citizens to pay that cost for people are not citizens.

 

[MilEME09]

Didn’t Smith demand Trudeau increase immigration/TFWs to Alberta only a few years ago?

Yeap in 2024, she also wanted to double ABs population by 2050 to 10 million using immigration. Government said sure, she got exactly what she wanted but takes none of the blame

 

[RangerRay]

I wonder if anyone will face any consequences for this waste of bandwidth and money with no electoral mandate?

Will seppie and federalist UCP stay united because of NDP? The old PCs managed to run the table for a long time without seppies until Alison Redford, Danielle Smith and Jim Prentice blew up the party. But I guess like the B.C. Liberals had lots of Conservatives, the AB PCs probably had lots of Liberals.

 

[childs56]

Yeap in 2024, she also wanted to double ABs population by 2050 to 10 million using immigration. Government said sure, she got exactly what she wanted but takes none of the blame

Through controlled means. Not a free for all.
You don'tneed to expand your population with only unskilled people, but those who compliment who you currently have and where you need and want to expand.
No point in moving to a place where you have no skill for the work force.