All Things Negligent Discharge (merged)

[MJP]

So people posted in from more 'garrison-ish' positions who have not handled a weapon for months/years?

Yea plus those that aren't army but have been earmarked for deployment.  Not their fault they are not exposed to weapons enough.

 

[MJP]

Quite often the 'offender' is just dog tired and not focused on what they are doing. Just glad to be back inside and thinking about a shower, meal and bed.

Oh I agree although for the most part I am talking about personnel that usually don't leave the wire but may have occasion to load their weapons.  Work-up, security tasking and the like.  I do know what you are talking about and totally agree, I remember the two NDs we had for our entire Coy for tour.  Both were at KAF while coming in after 20-30 days outside and both were at 2-3am. 

 

[GAP]

What's the emphasis like during the workup.....we lived with our rifles, went through clearing actions every time we went into any building, carried it with us at all times, and if you screwed up....slept with it, but we never, ever forgot to clear the weapon upon entering a building.....the pile-on was too horrendous to ever want repeated....

 

[MJP]

What's the emphasis like during the workup.....we lived with our rifles, went through clearing actions every time we went into any building, carried it with us at all times, and if you screwed up....slept with it, but we never, ever forgot to clear the weapon upon entering a building.....the pile-on was too horrendous to ever want repeated....

Oh very much so.  I remember teaching a BIQ right after we came back from overseas and one of the recommendations that we made off the hop was to issue the troops with a mag of blanks and they carried their weapons loaded and readied outside the classroom.  Doing their proper clearance drill while entering.  It never got instituted for various reason but since then I know of a few courses that have done it.  It only makes sense and increases ones confidence with the weapon. 

 

[GAP]

Oh very much so.  I remember teaching a BIQ right after we came back from overseas and one of the recommendations that we made off the hop was to issue the troops with a mag of blanks and they carried their weapons loaded and readied outside the classroom.  Doing their proper clearance drill while entering.  It never got instituted for various reason but since then I know of a few courses that have done it.  It only makes sense and increases ones confidence with the weapon.

They didn't trust us enough to even give us blanks, but the process was so indoctrinated that by the time we were in a situation where care was required, it was second nature.

 

[Prariedawg]

The BIQ I was an instructor on in Wx Feb-june 07 carried blanks (With BFA of course) loaded thier wpn outside at all times and carried out the proper unload upon entering any building (sandbag bays built for just that reason). I dont know if they still do it or not ill have to check with someone who recently taught there. Despite all that we still had a couple of ND's though. Damn that 10%!!!

 

[danchapps]

On my BMQ we had about 3 ND's in the span of 35 minutes. As well, there was one that wasn't noticed by the staff, so it didn't happen. Total just in my platoon =4. On My SQ we had 1. She cocked it twice with the mag on then removed the mag and fired. She tried to blame the weapon, and lost. When teased by a course mate about having to leave the field to go back to camp she stated "It's not my fault I have go back." Ummm, yeah, it kind of was. She was an interesting character.

I like the idea of being made to carry the mag of blanks, as it would keep those on a course honest with the clearing bays. The amount of times I've seen guys just pass it is mind boggling. I try to remind them, but they're too stupid to get the point, and it was always the same couple of guys.

 

[ballz]

I like the idea of a mag full of blanks and always being loaded outside as well. I can definitely see how much more diligent it would make anybody.

I'm doing my BMOQ in May, but since I'm at Civie U and doing nothing other then school, I've been going to the Reserve BMQ on the weekends that is being run here, to try and prepare for my course. When getting our rifles from the rack, I doubt half of us were clearing our chambers, same goes for anytime we left it with somebody else or whatever, I doubt the proper precautions were being taken half the time.

One day when we grabbed them from the rack the MCpl said "Make sure you check your rifles because I *WILL* put a dummy round in one of them." After that comment alone I was much more diligent, and I can only imagine how diligent I would be there was a dummy round put in one rifle every time.

Moral of the story... That magazine of blanks is a pure gold idea.

 

[George Wallace]

What's the emphasis like during the workup.....we lived with our rifles, went through clearing actions every time we went into any building, carried it with us at all times, and if you screwed up....slept with it, but we never, ever forgot to clear the weapon upon entering a building.....the pile-on was too horrendous to ever want repeated....

This is how it should be.  I have deployed on a Sovereignty EX to Norman Wells and had all my guys conduct their Clearance drills on their BHPs on entry to all buildings.  The BG, however, walked around fully loaded at all times, indoors and out.  I hoped that by our example, others in the BG would catch on.  I actually got shit upon by Platoon WOs for shitting on their guys after they failed to Clear their wpns before entering the CP.    :

This was a case of the Leadership failing to enforce proper drills.  Poor leadership leads to poor examples being passed on and accepted by the troops.

 

[Rifleman62]

Human error causes 80% of accidents. That 80% is broken down as sources of human error. Individual error represents 48% of the source:

-  the usual suspects suffering from Cynical Optimism:  Nothing bad will ever happen to them, and I’m alright Jack;
- Familiarity Breeds Contempt;
- fatigue; and
- haste.

Soldiers have accidents because:

- No formal decision making training in Civilian Education system or Army Training system
- Poor judgment at the decision making “moment”
- Lack of Leader presence at that “moment”
- No cognitive analysis of long term effects of each critical “personal choice” (decision)

 

[GAP]

The basic problem in a lot of cases is it is not "personal".

The actions/training/indoctrination has to be on a personal level to the point that it's like B.O. on that dream date you always envisioned.

Try 3 screaming/spittle flying D.I.'s standing around you with noise coming 360 degrees in 3D and suddenly it becomes very personal. You wilt under that barrage like the guy who finds out his Saturday night date is a transvestite.....but boy do you remember....(both)

 

[c_canuk]

imho, if you are going to try to make clearing a weapon second nature by making people clear weapon on entering a building, you damn well better make them load a mag on exiting, if it has dummy rounds or blanks so much the better.

I watched students get a magless safety precaution down to a science and later forget about the mag while tired in the field when they let their muscle memory take over.

 

[Love793]

imho, if you are going to try to make clearing a weapon second nature by making people clear weapon on entering a building, you damn well better make them load a mag on exiting, if it has dummy rounds or blanks so much the better.

I watched students get a magless safety precaution down to a science and later forget about the mag while tired in the field when they let their muscle memory take over.

Bingo! Teach it right and stop coddling the troops. I hate being in the field and hearing "We're not going to issue any ammo until ________, to cut down on the chance of a ND." 

 

[geo]

Let's face it, during the bad old days of our Peacekeeper persona, weapon handling skills were left out to dry.  We were mainly training with blank ammunition (if that).  The Code of service discipline was being messed with.  People were afraid to press charges and do the double quick march in front of the OC/CO - settling for admin measures.... if that.

Well, the Canadian Army is an army once again.  Weapon handling skills must become second nature.  I would prefer to see charges laid & the lessons learnt NOW, before the troops are deployed - than over there, where lives might be on the line.

IMHO

 

[medicineman]

Let's face it, during the bad old days of our Peacekeeper persona, weapon handling skills were left out to dry.  We were mainly training with blank ammunition (if that).  The Code of service discipline was being messed with.  People were afraid to press charges and do the double quick march in front of the OC/CO - settling for admin measures.... if that.

Well, the Canadian Army is an army once again.  Weapon handling skills must become second nature.  I would prefer to see charges laid & the lessons learnt NOW, before the troops are deployed - than over there, where lives might be on the line.

IMHO

Well, I seem to remember in the 90's in those bad old days where, strangely enough, at least with the Battalion I deployed with, ND's, while a few happened, were dealt with swiftly, with a charge and a hefty fine.  We trained with live and blank ammo.  We went to work every day, drew our weapons, three blanks and had one up the spout every time we left a building and cleared it upon entry.  If a round was missing upon returning to the CQ, well, you got charged.  Simple.  Fast forward a year and I'm back with the Fd Amb and I had a Sgt that got upset that I had a (blank) round up the pipe while in an area with known enemy.  He was worried that if I had an ND in front of him, he'd have to charge me...

Back to the point - weapon hadling drills are no different now than back then - some people just don't take them seriously and/or they're just too cavalier with their weapons.

MM 

 

[ajp]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/06/25/soldier-trial025.html

It has been a while but this was in todays news.

 

[OldSolduer]

In 93 in Croatia we had several NDs from Pte all the way up to Infantry Sgt. All were charged. All were awarded a substantial fine, within a few days of the occurence.

In 97, while in Bosnia, a certain camp (VK) would not put their bolts in their weapons while on gate guard, because they were afraid of NDs. This was the same camp that had brand new fleece undergarments they used as lounging pajamas while the BG had none.

This kind of thinking MUST STOP and I hope it has.

 

[2 Cdo]

In 97, while in Bosnia, a certain camp (VK) would not put their bolts in their weapons while on gate guard, because they were afraid of NDs. This was the same camp that had brand new fleece undergarments they used as lounging pajamas while the BG had none.

This kind of thinking MUST STOP and I hope it has.

I remember more than one gate guard person had a bolt in but the magazine was covered with gun tape  to prevent a round from accidentally being chambered. The no bolt seemed to be predominantly in C6 and C9's while on gate guard!

 

[George Wallace]

I remember more than one gate guard person had a bolt in but the magazine was covered with gun tape  to prevent a round from accidentally being chambered. The no bolt seemed to be predominantly in C6 and C9's while on gate guard!

Weak leadership is found everywhere.  In '94 we had a WO order his crew not to but bolts in C6, or BBC in the 76mm, of his Cougar.  Fear of a ND could have cost lives.  He was sent off ERE and never to return to the Reg't.  Yeah!  New CO, new RSM, and guess who landed up in the same Sqn as me? 

 

[OldSolduer]

Weak leadership is found everywhere.  In '94 we had a WO order his crew not to but bolts in C6, or BBC in the 76mm, of his Cougar.  Fear of a ND could have cost lives.  He was sent off ERE and never to return to the Reg't.  Yeah!  New CO, new RSM, and guess who landed up in the same Sqn as me? 

THAT does not surprise me. I've seen examples of people who were to never command troops again....be posted to greater leadership roles....and they were still right out of it.
As far as I'm concerned, whoever gave the order to remove bolts or tape mags to prevent NDs needs a good swift kick to the.....get what I mean? :rage: