Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)

[GAP]

A number of nonwhite groups/persons might not be applying based on the history of their parents.

Remember a lot of immigrants who moved here were from places where the military were brutal and they don't want their children becoming like them.

It matters not that the CF is nowhere near the same calibre of those 3rd world militaries, it is the stigma they get stuck with based on the person's experience....

 

[curious george]

i'll

A number of nonwhite groups/persons might not be applying based on the history of their parents.

Remember a lot of immigrants who moved here were from places where the military were brutal and they don't want their children becoming like them.

It matters not that the CF is nowhere near the same calibre of those 3rd world militaries, it is the stigma they get stuck with based on the person's experience....

Good point.  The uplifting aspect to this point is once that stigma is shattered, its like breaking through a brick wall.  It might take the third generation (ie. grandson/daughter), but once he or she does, it could be a valid option for future generations because he or she has set a precedence. I suspect something that keeps the snowball rolling are role models.  Having more visible minorities in senior NCM and officer roles could have an impact on attraction.  The catch 22 is that you have to start somewhere.

It has helped immensely that one side of my family has been exposed to "professional" roles, both here and US army, so they have at least some clue of what I'm getting into.  It also helps that my parents' time in Canada and level assimmilation has worked in my favour. (And that i'm going for a profession  ).

 

[Maxadia]

Nothing.

It's got to be something.  Maybe not anything that the Forces is actually doing, but maybe there is something that is giving them the impression that the CF is not an employer that they should bother with.

 

[mariomike]

It's got to be something.  Maybe not anything that the Forces is actually doing, but maybe there is something that is giving them the impression that the CF is not an employer that they should bother with.

The CF is facing a lot of tough competition from many other excellent employers.

The police, for example:
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4021

And others:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/top-employers/canadas-best-diversity-employers-for-2012/article548123/

 

[dimsum]

I've said this before, but an important reason (and one that will be difficult to fix, at least for the Reg Force) is that a large percentage of our visible minorities are in the big urban areas and don't see moving to rural areas (where some of the bases are) as a good idea.  Some groups (I'll take Chinese as an example since I'm one) may feel that their family should stay relatively close to each other for support, etc. and will not approve of their son/daughter living in somewhere else when the rest of the family is in Toronto/Vancouver.  The idea of moving every few years is even worse, because some feel that the military member never really "settles down" and lives life like an extended working holiday.  Also, for the applicant, the shift from a large city to a base in rural Canada may be a huge turn-off; even things like certain restaurants and groceries become an issue.  I defy anyone to find a good Chinese food place (on par with Toronto and Vancouver) in somewhere like Cold Lake or Wainwright. 

These factors obviously don't really come into play with the reserves, since they can stay in their home city and just do the Class A stuff and a bunch of exercises/operations.  In my family (at least), the main issues are similar to the ones above.  Notice that I didn't say that my parents don't support what I do as a job; they think it's actually really cool and worthwhile.  They just wish I did it near Toronto.

How do we fix this?  I have no idea, short of re-opening the bases near cities.  And since that's not happening, it will be a tough sell for most new immigrants and visible minorities.  Of course there are exceptions, but by and large it will be pretty tough to convince them to move out of Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver/Calgary.

 

[Jed]

So if we want diversity in recruitment to come way up in priority, here is an idea. If you are Canadian, healthy and 18 years old; get conscripted for a year. After a year of serving your country you can go on or stay around if it is the right fit.

:warstory: I am putting on my helmet as I wait for incoming. 

 

[Strike]

Dimsum - I've been waiting for your $0.02 on here.  Thanks!

Another factor to consider is where many immigrants come from the military is not a trusted agency and they carry those stereotypes with them from their former homes.  So why would someone who might have come from a country where the military was a tyrant want to join the military in their own country?  It will take some time and likely several generations before anyone in those families ever considers joining.

 

[mad dog 2020]

Can you say: YTEP, on one year contracts and promote trades for job experience. Like Fd Eng, supply, cook, MSE Op, stwd, Bosn, and Cbt Arms to beef up the reserves. I know we did like 13 Pl in Wainwright in 83ish.  Use up Meaford, Pet, Gagetown and Borden in the off season. 

 

[brihard]

Can you say: YTEP, on one year contracts and promote trades for job experience. Like Fd Eng, supply, cook, MSE Op, stwd, Bosn, and Cbt Arms to beef up the reserves. I know we did like 13 Pl in Wainwright in 83ish.  Use up Meaford, Pet, Gagetown and Borden in the off season.

How is it in the military's interest to hang on to people for only a single year? Does this idea contribute to our ability to kill bad people and break their stuff?

 

[Journeyman]

How is it in the military's interest to hang on to people for only a single year? Does this idea contribute to our ability to kill bad people and break their stuff?

  :nod:  Exactly.

If someone wants to reinvent Katimavik then just call it Katimavik, but don't pretend that it will benefit the CF or assist in cultural assimilation.

 

[dimsum]

Thinking about this a little bit, what is the harm of having more visible minorities in the Reserves than in the Reg Force?  Those that are committed enough to serve in the Reserves may (I suspect will) want to go on deployment, and some may want to go Reg Force once they realize the lifestyle is to their liking (I'll use myself as an example of that.)  Those that don't go Reg Force will still be staunch supporters of the military in their home towns/cities.  Both are valuable in that their communities will see visible minorities in uniform and can be persuaded to do so themselves. 

A personal example; I volunteered for the Abbotsford Airshow and Canada Day in Vancouver when I was posted in Comox and Victoria.  It wasn't anything major, just talking about the CF and what my experiences were prior to and after OP ATHENA.  The most surprising thing to me was that once other Chinese people found out I was first-generation Chinese-Canadian, they would be surprised and intrigued that I was in the Forces and would stop to chat. 

If the Chinese community is like most other visible minority communities (and I suspect it is), the interest is definitely there and we just need to target it.  If you think of the Reserves as the "gateway" to further service in the Reg Force, then really the only reason why visible minorities and other cultures aren't interested is because they see the CF as predominately Anglo-Saxon males.  To counter this, it may mean setting up something during cultural events with CF members of that culture/ethnicity, which I suspect won't be hard in the larger cities.  While that may sound like pandering to the community, it also gets the message across that the CF isn't a bunch of "white dudes from the farm".  I would even suggest that you probably don't need a recruiting booth; just have some people present in uniform and naturally people will notice they're different and want to talk.  Most people would be more inclined to chat if it isn't obvious that it's a recruiting gig.

It became a bit of a rambling rant, sorry.  This is something that I find very important, for personal as well as professional reasons.  Strike and other PAOs, feel free to poke holes in my arguments. 

 

[GAP]

I think you make a really valid argument for it....interesting approach....low key, but effective. :nod:

 

[George Wallace]

Dimsum.  I must agree with your observations and believe that they are already in motion.  In my unit, one of my subordinates, born in Hong Kong, has recently done a CT.  He has joined about thirty or so others from this unit who have gone the CT route over the last five years.  Not all of them White Anglo Saxon Protestant Males.  ;D

Going back some in this discussion, I have know many Native and Metis members of the Forces over the years.  Many did not identify themselves as such.  What affect this actually had on the 'Bean Counters' statistics I don't know, but I am convinced that this whole matter is really a non-issue.

As Dimsum and others have pointed out, many of the Reserve units in the major metropolitan areas, more accurately represent the ethnic populations of their area.  If they are not being accounted for in all of this statistic gathering, then there is a problem. 

 

 

[Remius]

George, you are correct in your statement.  The only way they collect the stats is through self identification.  Many people choose not to.  Finding out how many women we have is easy enough but the rest have to self identify.  And it does indeed skew the numbers because it only represents those that do.

I met an aboriginal NCM who was giving a lecture on diversity issues and he talked exactly about that.  How in his first years in the CF he didn't want to self identify.  He said that he realised that he was doing more damage than good by doing that and that he changed his mind began self identifying and encouraging others to do so , to allow the CF to accurately gauge where it is at in regards to diversity and allow us as an organisation to better reflect, accomodate and encourage.

 

[pthebeau]

As much as I admire the trust that some CF members put in the recruiting process, I am very skeptical of its full integrity.  Here's why:

The RCMP has a similar intention to recruit minorities, and it is very apparent.  I have been through the process before, and have gotten to know many that have as well, including men of aboriginal background and women.  I know for a fact that a female candidate with a lower score on the RPAT was given a selection package ahead of a male candidate who got a higher score.  The same exact scenario happened where preference for the aboriginal male was given ahead of pure RPAT score merit. 

Granted, regardless of their score, they need to be successful at all recruiting steps along with a graduation at Depot, but the fact they got processed ahead of someone else due to their minority status is not commendable.

Having the same targets, I cannot help but feel the CF may share some of these unfortunate recruitment scenarios, and find it realistic to consider it probable.  I'm very proud that the CF is reaching out to minorities, but do not feel it would be fair to any "majority" applicant to be passed off based on anything other than merit.

I'm not saying this is the case, since it would be very difficult and unearthing to prove it right or wrong. 
(Unless we have a high ranking recruitment officer on these forums willing to blow the whistle)

 

[Strike]

I'm not saying this is the case, since it would be very difficult and unearthing to prove it right or wrong. 
(Unless we have a high ranking recruitment officer on these forums willing to blow the whistle)

If you are not saying that this is not the case, then why bother bringing it up in the first place?

Numerous posters, some of whom have direct experience/knowledge in the subject, have already mentioned in this thread and the original from which this one branched off, that the CF does not use a quota system in recruiting, but does try to target certain groups at various times.  VERY different.  Please learn what these differences are before you post stuff like this again.

 

[daftandbarmy]

If you are not saying that this is not the case, then why bother bringing it up in the first place?

Numerous posters, some of whom have direct experience/knowledge in the subject, have already mentioned in this thread and the original from which this one branched off, that the CF does not use a quota system in recruiting, but does try to target certain groups at various times.  VERY different.  Please learn what these differences are before you post stuff like this again.

However we, very publicly and without any appraent shame, use a quota system for the QDJM. Contradictions like this are hard for serving members to reconcile. I assume it's even more confusing for non-members.

 

[mariomike]

Thinking about this a little bit, what is the harm of having more visible minorities in the Reserves than in the Reg Force? 

Regarding visible minorities in the reserves:

"This does not mean that a draw towards military service is totally discarded. On the contrary, surveys have shown interest, but this interest is often higher in the reserves, where the primacy of family, higher education, and professional (respectable) careers can still be pursued within the civilian sector.":
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo8/no3/jung-eng.asp

 

[pthebeau]

If you are not saying that this is not the case, then why bother bringing it up in the first place?

Numerous posters, some of whom have direct experience/knowledge in the subject, have already mentioned in this thread and the original from which this one branched off, that the CF does not use a quota system in recruiting, but does try to target certain groups at various times.  VERY different.  Please learn what these differences are before you post stuff like this again.

Thank you for your criticism.  Unfortunately you failed to see the objective of my post . 

I respect the posts of those with direct experience and knowledge on the subject and thank them for sharing their experience.  However, I cannot ignore the misdirection that has been known to spawn from objectives such as diversity targets.  If the RCMP recruitment process has been victim to such things, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the CF recruitment process has been victim as well.  Let's not be naive and pretend that such things would openly be admitted on the internet by those who would have professional knowledge of this.

Why bother posting?  Well since this is a forum where facts and opinions are shared, I respectfully raised the question.  I would expect more respectful behavior from a forum veteran such as you, sir.

 

[Scott]

She's not a 'sir'. Respect begetting respect would mean you checking to make sure you don't make that mistake

And you did more than raise questions, hence the response you got.

I see nothing insulting, or attempting to insult, about it.

Lighten up if you want to participate in the grown up discussion.