Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)

[Strike]

If the RCMP recruitment process has been victim to such things, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the CF recruitment process has been victim as well.  Let's not be naive and pretend that such things would openly be admitted on the internet by those who would have professional knowledge of this.

:Tin-Foil-Hat:

Heaven forbid we actually learn from the errors of others, huh?

 

[pthebeau]

:Tin-Foil-Hat:

Heaven forbid we actually learn from the errors of others, huh?

Fair enough.  Although...at the rate changes are made at the federal level?

 

[aesop081]

Fair enough.  Although...at the rate changes are made at the federal level?

The CF has no quota for recruiting visible minority groups. I can repeat this in French if it would settle it for you once and for all.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Heck, even *I* got that after 2 or 3 times, and I am so smart, I can count to potato!

 

[Remius]

ptebeau:

It's a little hard to compare both.

The RCMP recruits people for one job with one standard.  Now they might be looking at some people with skills for potential in the future for other tasks in the force.

The CF has over one hundred different entry level jobs with different entry standards for each.  also these career paths also have the same perception and stereotypes problems that make attraction of targetted groups a challenge. 

Whereas policing has gone a long way to get women and visible minorities to be attracted to, we face challenges they just don't have.  The RCMP has close to double the percentage of aborignals and visible minorities than we have and have a higher percentage of women as well.  If we nefariously recruited like you say we might be, would our numbers not be similar?  I can assure you, the recruiting system does not have a secret diversity recruiting scheme.  At least not when I was there, and I'd be surprised if they have one now.  I was not a "high up recruiting officer" but was very well connected to the system.  Enough to know.

Funny thing is that a few years ago the RCMP recruiting cell came to us for advice on getting numbers and how we did our recruiting process. They even sent some of their recruiters on our CF recruiter course.

 

[pthebeau]

ptebeau:

It's a little hard to compare both.

The RCMP recruits people for one job with one standard.  Now they might be looking at some people with skills for potential in the future for other tasks in the force.

The CF has over one hundred different entry level jobs with different entry standards for each.  also these career paths also have the same perception and stereotypes problems that make attraction of targetted groups a challenge. 

Whereas policing has gone a long way to get women and visible minorities to be attracted to, we face challenges they just don't have.  The RCMP has close to double the percentage of aborignals and visible minorities than we have and have a higher percentage of women as well.  If we nefariously recruited like you say we might be, would our numbers not be similar?  I can assure you, the recruiting system does not have a secret diversity recruiting scheme.  At least not when I was there, and I'd be surprised if they have one now.  I was not a "high up recruiting officer" but was very well connected to the system.  Enough to know.

Funny thing is that a few years ago the RCMP recruiting cell came to us for advice on getting numbers and how we did our recruiting process. They even sent some of their recruiters on our CF recruiter course.

This is the post I was seeking all along!  Thank you for sharing Crantor, great points, great post and good to know!

 

[mariomike]

If interested,

From the Canadian Forces Leadership Institute:

"Challenge and Change in the Military: Gender and Diversity Issues":
http://post.queensu.ca/~leuprech/docs/Gender_Diversity_reprint.pdf

 

[Scoobydude]

This is very interesting especially me being a Sikh Indo-canadian, I know the CF has been targeting minority groups because I have seen them with a little recruiting/info table at religious festivals before. So I don't think its fair to say they aren't making the effort. Could they do more? Yeah of course. Thing is Indian and Chinese people are the largest visible minorities in Canada (from what I understand), But Indian people are very family oriented and joining the military makes being close to your family and keeping those connections much more difficult. My chinese friends also tell me that their culture is also very family oriented as well. I also noted that there just isn't much interest in Indo-canadians joining the forces. Most just think about going to university and becoming a Doctor, Pharmicist, ect... Despite the majority having a warrior heritage (In reference to sikhs). My uncle is a Pharmicist in a reserve unit in the toronto area and he's mentioned how there aren't very many of us. He's got a turban so he isn't hard to miss lol It did help a ton when Lt.Col Sajjan was made CO of the BC regiment because it showed a ton of sikhs that we can get some here in a military career and that it isn't impossible.

 

[pthebeau]

This is very interesting especially me being a Sikh Indo-canadian, I know the CF has been targeting minority groups because I have seen them with a little recruiting/info table at religious festivals before. So I don't think its fair to say they aren't making the effort. Could they do more? Yeah of course. Thing is Indian and Chinese people are the largest visible minorities in Canada (from what I understand), But Indian people are very family oriented and joining the military makes being close to your family and keeping those connections much more difficult. My chinese friends also tell me that their culture is also very family oriented as well. I also noted that there just isn't much interest in Indo-canadians joining the forces. Most just think about going to university and becoming a Doctor, Pharmicist, ect... Despite the majority having a warrior heritage (In reference to sikhs). My uncle is a Pharmicist in a reserve unit in the toronto area and he's mentioned how there aren't very many of us. He's got a turban so he isn't hard to miss lol It did help a ton when Lt.Col Sajjan was made CO of the BC regiment because it showed a ton of sikhs that we can get some here in a military career and that it isn't impossible.

To be fair, I do not believe there are many ethnicities, including English/French Canadians that aren't family oriented.  I don't think there is a single military person that did not find it difficult being away from their family, whether it being their parents, brothers, sisters, children, wives, husbands, etc.  I know personally being away from a community I have been a part of for almost 20 years will be difficult for me, not to mention my family.

Generally, it is know that when you lose something, you appreciate it a lot more, and you find energy to fight for it.  Which sometimes enriches the experience.  Often, convenience is the quickest path to taking something for granted.  Knowing this, you may find keeping close with your family will not be an obstacle to a great military career.  :warstory:

 

[Allgunzblazing]

I completely agree with pthebeau - no community can claim to be more family oriented. Lets be honest - man is a social animal and most folk would prefer not be away from their family and friends.

I will never understand why immigrants from India do not turn up in hordes to the Recruiting Centres. The paper written by Capt. (N) Jung correctly notes that the armed forces of certain countries are known for their brutality and corruptness, so people from those countries are liable to perceive every armed force to be the same.

Now, I’m not saying that the Indian armed forces are the best in the world. But among many Indians living in India they are perceived as a great institution. They are seen as a government body which has remained largely untainted by politics, corruption, etc. For this reason it is still a career of choice. The India Army alone has over a million active duty soldiers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Army. Does this mean that these million soldiers do not value their families? If they are able to manage their military career and their family in India, why can't they do so when they come here? 

With regards to immigrants from India, wishing to join the CF should be natural but it is not. 

As far as information regarding the CF among Indo-Canadians, I think that there are no issues in this regard. This can be seen in the cadets. Now even assuming that information regarding the CF in limited to the cadets and their parents, why do we not see these kids wishing to make a career in the forces? All the cadets I’ve spoken to, absolutely love the program. They know that being a cadet has opened so many doors to them. So if the CF has already given them so much just as a cadet, then why do they not want to become paid full-time members?

 

[dimsum]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it could be a case of where the bases are located in India.  If they are located close to population centres, then it's not such a big deal for the families (and consequently the military is seen as a viable profession with a good work/life balance.) 

It's good that the Cadets love the program, but Cadets is inherently different than the CF.  While one can be a stepping stone to the other, they are two totally different organizations.  However, as you've stated before, the interest level may convince some to look into the CF later on.

 

[Allgunzblazing]

Dimsum, the bases in India are located all over - some within or adjacent to major cities and some in the middle of no where. By no where I mean, there is just the base and nothing else.

You're absolutely correct about the Cadets, in that they're different from the CF. They are certainly not viewed as a feeder organization. I've chatted with Indo-Canadian parents, who put their kids into the Cadet program because the dad's father happens to be a retired soldier from the Indian Army. So obviously I wanted to know if they see their kids joining the CF. The answer is a flat "NO".

Beats me  :.

EDIT - In India they have a system of "Field Posting" and "Family Posting". Those in the Infantry go back and forth from Field and Family postings. The folks in the other combat arms end up doing two to three field postings. The other arms do at least one. A posting generally lasts three years. Overseas deployment is not that common. However when it does happen, it is seen as a prize posting - simply for the monetary and career advancement factors. Also, even when one is on a family posting, he/ she could be away for months on exercise. Or the unit could get deployed to fight insurgents. So again - lots of time away from ones family.

 

[Remius]

I completely agree with pthebeau - no community can claim to be more family oriented. Lets be honest - man is a social animal and most folk would prefer not be away from their family and friends.

It isn't quite like that.  While it maybe true that no community can claim to be more family oriented, the way family works can differ.

Take white, north american people of european descent.  We have a history of having our kids strike out on their own at a certain age.  We expect it.  Chances are that many people of European desent have and know family members that have left their families to find a better life or just to start a better life.  I have family all over the place.

But in certain cultures you never leave the family or the community.  An example is the Inuit.  You are expected to be a productive member of the community and you help provide.  Leaving to join the CF isn't something you would consider.  What we try to do in the CF, is sell the CF as a way to gain skills that you can bring back and benefit your family and community.  But it's a tough sell.

In other cultures, parents are happy to keep their children around as long as they can.  Or you don't leave until you are married and so on.  These are cultural aspects that come into play and family is a huge part of it.

In Canada, we had two entire generations that went to war.  It wasn't just the army that went to war.  The whole country did.  Their sons and daughters, many of them joined in their wake and so on.  A lot of serving members proudly point to various family members that have served.  There is a history there and the perception of military service is different.

The thing is, that a lot of newer Canadians don't have that link.  It's not to say they aren't any loyal or proud but military service can be seen differently based on family and cultural history.

 

[mariomike]

A brief explanation of the two options:

"Two options are recommended to ease CF recruitment and retention problems: greater concentration on the traditional sources of personnel (Caucasian males from rural and low-economic-growth areas); or diversity recruitment, with emphasis on recruiting men and women from the ethno-cultural and aboriginal communities. The first option has very little demographic support and would leave the CF vulnerable to higher costs and personnel shortages. Demographic and labour-force trends argue for the diversity strategy that the CF adopted in 1999; while it may have higher resource costs at the outset, it should have substantial payoff in the longer term."

Canadian Forces Leadership Institute ( CFLI )
"Challenge and Change in the Military: Gender and Diversity Issues"

( Page 19. )

 

[pthebeau]

It isn't quite like that.  While it maybe true that no community can claim to be more family oriented, the way family works can differ.

Take white, north american people of european descent.  We have a history of having our kids strike out on their own at a certain age.  We expect it.  Chances are that many people of European desent have and know family members that have left their families to find a better life or just to start a better life.  I have family all over the place.

But in certain cultures you never leave the family or the community.  An example is the Inuit.  You are expected to be a productive member of the community and you help provide.  Leaving to join the CF isn't something you would consider.  What we try to do in the CF, is sell the CF as a way to gain skills that you can bring back and benefit your family and community.  But it's a tough sell.

In other cultures, parents are happy to keep their children around as long as they can.  Or you don't leave until you are married and so on.  These are cultural aspects that come into play and family is a huge part of it.

In Canada, we had two entire generations that went to war.  It wasn't just the army that went to war.  The whole country did.  Their sons and daughters, many of them joined in their wake and so on.  A lot of serving members proudly point to various family members that have served.  There is a history there and the perception of military service is different.

The thing is, that a lot of newer Canadians don't have that link.  It's not to say they aren't any loyal or proud but military service can be seen differently based on family and cultural history.

That's exactly the point, different families will work differently.  My inclination would be to look at environment and individual family dynamics/history, rather than normalize over an entire culture.  If a family shames military service, that's just how it is, but if the entire environment is sheltered from exposure to the canadian forces, a 1 hour presentation will hardly be enough, hehe.  I don't believe culture has too too much to do with it, with the understanding that culture is often derived from the environment where it is developed.

 

[dimsum]

That's exactly the point, different families will work differently.  My inclination would be to look at environment and individual family dynamics/history, rather than normalize over an entire culture.  If a family shames military service, that's just how it is, but if the entire environment is sheltered from exposure to the canadian forces, a 1 hour presentation will hardly be enough, hehe.  I don't believe culture has too too much to do with it, with the understanding that culture is often derived from the environment where it is developed.

Exactly.  The question is then how to expose them without making it too obvious.  Different circumstances, but in Hong Kong (at least as long as I could remember) the police, whether Royal HK and post-handover, has always (with very few exceptions, such as the movie inspiration for The Departed) been portrayed as the "good guys" and at some point most kids want to be a police officer.  I haven't been back to HK in years, but I never noticed any specific "recruiting campaigns" for the HK Police; it's somewhat expected that they'll do well in applications.  Anyone who's been there recently can feel free to correct me.

This leads me to what I've been saying before; slowly instill the CF into the culture.  By that I mean just to be there in uniform, but not specifically a recruiting tent.  Definitely have the info if asked (even if it's just "call CFRC"), but the representation should work.  As you said, if the family shames military service then nothing will convince them, but if the family is at least ambivalent-to-supportive, then the fact that "there are others like us in uniform; there must be some reason they're doing this" may be able to sway them. 

This will take time but I don't see it taking a lot of $, especially if the members in that community are going to said events anyway.  But what do I know, I don't work for Recruiting Group  :blotto:

 

[Jed]

The best recruiters are our own soldiers. They should be seen in uniform, in public, doing the right things.

This is difficult though when you have wool headed politicians or media types coming up with slogans like: "Soldiers, with Guns, On our Streets"

 

[mariomike]

The best recruiters are our own soldiers. They should be seen in uniform, in public, doing the right things.

This is difficult though when you have wool headed politicians or media types coming up with slogans like: "Soldiers, with Guns, On our Streets"

I do not recall seeing that ( except in photos of the 1970 FLQ Crisis in Montreal ), but I do remember this:

"Soldiers, with Guns Shovels, On our Streets"

 

[Jed]

I remember both events. Not sure if shoveling out TO was 'doing the right thing' though.  ;D  Probably the Winnipeg flood, Ontario ice storms or the Games security would be better.

 

[Scoobydude]

It isn't quite like that.  While it maybe true that no community can claim to be more family oriented, the way family works can differ.

Take white, north american people of european descent.  We have a history of having our kids strike out on their own at a certain age.  We expect it.  Chances are that many people of European desent have and know family members that have left their families to find a better life or just to start a better life.  I have family all over the place.

But in certain cultures you never leave the family or the community.  An example is the Inuit.  You are expected to be a productive member of the community and you help provide.  Leaving to join the CF isn't something you would consider.  What we try to do in the CF, is sell the CF as a way to gain skills that you can bring back and benefit your family and community.  But it's a tough sell.

In other cultures, parents are happy to keep their children around as long as they can.  Or you don't leave until you are married and so on.  These are cultural aspects that come into play and family is a huge part of it.

In Canada, we had two entire generations that went to war.  It wasn't just the army that went to war.  The whole country did.  Their sons and daughters, many of them joined in their wake and so on.  A lot of serving members proudly point to various family members that have served.  There is a history there and the perception of military service is different.

The thing is, that a lot of newer Canadians don't have that link.  It's not to say they aren't any loyal or proud but military service can be seen differently based on family and cultural history.

Thank you, I didn't mean to imply certain ethnicities are more family oriented than others. I just worded it wrong I suppose, what I was trying to get at is how family works is what's different. My bad sorry for the confusion guys lol

As far as the cadet thing goes, I was in cadets for 7 years And I'm in the process of joining the CF (hopefully). Yet there are a lot of indo-canadians in cadets who have no interest in joining the CF even though cadets gave them so many opportunities.