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Alleged police attack may nix soldier's Afghan tour

Just food for thought and civil discussion:

- Everyone can interpret things differently, including officers and the arrested at the scene.
- Age is one of the worst stereotypers.
- The video only shows part of the story, and articles have been biased.
- From what I've seen, nothing has been released from the bar/PD countering the witnesses/victim statement.  While the PD may be investigating, the bar doesn't necessarily have the control or requirement to remain silent.

Now, let's stop calling each other pissheads, taking personal digs, and the like and be civil.

Army.ca Staff
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Are you sure you're watching the same video?

The "bald guy" left him as a greater threat appears to be coming from behind them........if you had any clue whatsoever you would know what a "rearguard" is.

Are you watching the same video?

There are two uniformed officers and three bouncers in white shirts performing "rearguard" - to protect them against two civilians (one in jean shorts/white shirt and one shorter guy in black pants/green shirt.  If those five can't handle the threat of two guys who weren't even being aggressive, I don't know that the bald cop was going to make much of a difference to the situation.  To me, it looked like he was looking to get physical with someone, and when it became clear there wasn't going to be a confrontation behind him, he went looking for it with the subject on the ground - who was caught between a rock and a hard place being unable to offer up hands to get cuffed because of the position he got shoved into.

The other Policeman is not "in the way", he is allowing the first Officer to assume control, again if you had a clue about restrainment you would know the fastest way to hurt someone bad is for too many hands to be pulling in too many directions.

Which is precisely what happened.  The officer to the left of the subject isn't doing a whole hell of a lot to restrain him, and isn't even looking at the subject half of the time.  The cop on the right (the one that later delivers the knee shots) is clearly pushing the subject away from his body, trying to get him on his stomach - which ain't gonna happen if there is someone on the other side preventing him from rolling over.  Then the bald cop moves to the subject's head to allow the other cop to deliver knee blows because he got the subject into a position where he couldn't comply even if he wanted to.

Once it became obvious one officer was not going to restrain this guy and the bouncers [if thats who they are] appear to have the Policemen's back then they returned to the task at hand,

The more I watch the more I think "textbook".

The more I watch, the more I think "Keystone Kops".  We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Bruce.  Like I said, I normally back the police 110%, but the way I see it there's just a little too much gratuitous violence being laid down on the lad.
 
So now everyone, that wasn't there, has given their expert, life experienced answer on how a situation that they know, personally, nothing about should have been handled, we'll take a breather.

Threads here are based on facts, not conjecture, nor half videos of a situation. They are not here for conjecture, or for chest thumping adolescents to rant how they took down the Man.

No more Monday morning quarterbacks. No more barrack room lawyers. If you weren't there, you have no reason to comment.

So we'll lock this until someone can give a Mod enough solid evidence to allow their post to be made, which will likely be confined to transcripts coming out of the trial proceedings.
 
I am posting this to give some professional perspective to this thread. zipperhead cop writes:

Wow, coming late into this thread I am struck by what a disappointing showing of idle conjecture and speculation I am reading.  I guess "Don't question the boots on the ground" isn't universal. 

Points to consider.
A LEO goes out, every shift, and knows in his heart that he could die.  We know this because of the great many of us who get killed by idiots for no particularly good reason.  Criminals make a choice to be criminals and it is their life.  We have a job.  Other than the military, where can your job have people wanting to kill you? (Call takers are not part of this) Criminals TRAIN in ways to kill a police officer.  Their sad, useless lives are somehow made better if they get the "street cred" of ending one of our lives.  One of the tried and true ways to do that is to pull your hands in tight and as the officer is trying to gain control of your arms, come up with a knife or a gun and try to take him out.  We don't know if the drunken jackass we are dealing with is a wanted serial killer.  Hell, Charles Ng was arrested by The Bay floor walkers in Calgary.  I'm sure they didn't know who they were dealing with either.  It is my job to make sure my partner and I make it home at the end of our shift.  Full stop. 

There is a critical time period between the moment a bad guy knows he is going to be arrested to the time he is under physical control.  During that time frame, while he knows the gig is up and he is not actually restrained is one of the most dangerous times for us.  The bad guy is still thinking, plotting, looking at escape routes, deciding if he can take us or not.  So at such time as we need to put the grab on anyone, until they are under physical control they are a threat to us. 

Another point to consider.
At such time as someone is not being compliant we are entitled to use as much force is necessary to affect the arrest.  In this case, it would have been perfectly justifiable to step back and pepper spray this guy.  I promise you, I would rather have broken ribs than be sprayed again. 

Yet another point to consider.
The video conveniently starts when force is being used on the guy.  Nothing leading up to it.  Nothing with regards to what was said, who got warned, how many chances the guy had to comply.  Rather suspicious to me.  We also don't put people on the ground just for fun, and someone has to be doing something threatening or resistive for that to even occur. So the editted out dynamics that happened before the guy got grounded are pretty pertinent. 

Over and above this incident, I really do not get the odd subculture that exists in the military that seems to think that in order to be hard as fuck you have to be against the police.  Maybe it's some sort of alpha wolf thing.  Maybe too many dudes have been locked up when they were jacked in big cities and would have been fine in their small towns.  Who knows?  But I can assure you it is tedious and lame.  Police could care less how you draw a pay cheque and are concerned only with how you are and were behaving.  I can also state without reservation that police would be inclined to give someone in the military a break (I know countless dudes that have been sprung just because they played the Army card) until such time as they have talked themselves out of one.  This we can do, for that special someone who comes up and says "I truly will not be happy with my service until I am introduced to the sidewalk and put in jail".  We can also un-arrest people. ***POOF*** You're free!!  Cop magic!  So if you know in your heart of hearts that you didn't do anything and you are being fingered incorrectly, just go with the flow and trust that it will be sorted out.  We want to get the proper bad guy, so if we have the wrong one you'll get cut lose and we will continue to track down the real one.  Unless your actions suggest you would not be satisfied with that outcome (see above)

All in all, that video does not show anything that would suggest gross misconduct.  As for the knee strikes, I believe Chris Rock has some helpful suggestions on YouTube about that.
That's it.  Just wanted to explain some inside-the-LEO's-head stuff that might help.  Hope you are all enjoying a safe and arrest free summer. 
 
Unlocked at mariomike's request.  He has some further links on the subject.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff
 
Thank you, Roy.
These are two recent updates in regards to the emergency care aspect of the subject:
Ambulance NB drafts policy in wake of complaint":
http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/search/article/766326
http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/search/article/766195
 
"RCMP ready report on alleged Fredericton police beating: Begin, normally based at CFB Valcartier in Quebec, said in a July interview that he was supposed to be deployed to Afghanistan in October 2010.
But the infantry private said he suffered a broken vertebra during the altercation and it could cost him his tour of duty.":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2009/09/25/nb-begin-rcmp-524.html
 
This isn't the first time that something like this happened between Fredericton Police and members of the military. Imagine what's not making the news though ...  :eek:
 
jeepsport said:
This isn't the first time that something like this happened between Fredericton Police and members of the military. Imagine what's not making the news though ...  :eek:

If you have nothing substantial to add to the thread, stay away from the keyboard.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
Update:

Article link
Soldier charged with resisting arrest
Published Friday January 8th, 2010

A soldier who accused Fredericton police officers of brutality during his arrest last summer has been charged with resisting arrest during the incident.

The Daily Gleaner has learned that the RCMP filed charges against Luc Begin in Fredericton provincial court Thursday.

Begin, a private in the Canadian Armed Forces, faces two charges of obstruction stemming from the July 18 incident.

That's the day he said city police officers used excessive force and injured him.

The obstruction charges allege Begin resisted arrest and failed to identify himself to a police officer.

He faces four other charges: two of mischief and two of obstruction - again accusing him of resisting arrest and failing to identify himself. They stem from a separate incident alleged to have occurred a week earlier on July 10.

Const. Chantal Farrah, spokeswoman for the RCMP in New Brunswick, confirmed the charges were filed against Begin.

She said he will appear in court at a later date to enter a plea.

There was no word Thursday on whether any Fredericton police officer will face charges.

"That is a separate investigation which is still ongoing," Farrah said.

One police officer was suspended July 23 after a video of the arrest surfaced on the Internet. He was assigned to administrative duties in mid-September.

Begin complained of police brutality after the July 18 arrest in front of Sweetwaters bar on King Street.

Fredericton police Chief Barry MacKnight asked the Mounties to conduct an arm's-length investigation not only into the allegations against members of his department, but also to investigate Begin's conduct.

Begin has said he received back injuries, cuts and bruises and blacked out as a result of excessive police force during the July 18 arrest.

The Quebec-based soldier was celebrating his engagement to a Fredericton woman that night. He and a group of friends were refused entrance to the bar.

Begin has said that bar staff incorrectly fingered him as a problem customer from a prior visit to the club.

On July 10, there was a disturbance reported to Fredericton police. In that case, a man ran across the top of a cruiser parked in front of Sweetwaters and escaped arrest.

Begin said that on July 18 he was thrown to the ground by members of the police force after one of the officers said he recognized Begin from the July 10 incident.

"The only thing I remember is that I got thrown on the ground, getting the knee and kicked ... and an open-hand hit to the face and I lost consciousness. I've got broken vertebrae in my back," Begin told The Daily Gleaner in an interview several days after the incident.

Downtown resident Charles LeBlanc posted a video recording of Begin's arrest on YouTube.

The video appears to show one of the arresting officers using his knee to strike Begin's back at least three times before he was handcuffed and placed in the backseat of a police cruiser.

Begin has also filed a complaint against Ambulance New Brunswick.

He alleged that after the July 18 incident, a paramedic dismissed his health complaints and refused to transport him from the Queen Street police station to the Dr. Everett Chalmers Regional Hospital for medical assessment. Ambulance New Brunswick has created a policy to help guide paramedics who are treating a patient who's in police custody.

The Daily Gleaner attempted to contact Begin through his fiancée's family Thursday evening, but no family members could be reached.

But wait - there's more.....

Article link
City police officer charged with assault
Published Thursday January 14th, 2010

A Fredericton police officer has been charged with assault following an investigation into an allegation of police brutality during an arrest in the downtown last summer.

The Fredericton Police Force released a statement Wednesday, announcing that the RCMP filed the charge against Const. Stephen Stafford earlier in the day.

The city police department isn't commenting on the matter while it remains before the courts and inquiries were referred to the RCMP.

Const. Chantal Farrah, spokeswoman for the RCMP in New Brunswick, confirmed that investigations into the July 18 incident have now concluded.

"A charge of assault was filed today in Fredericton provincial court," she said.

Luc Begin, a private in the Canadian Armed Forces who levelled the accusations, faces two charges of obstruction of justice related to the incident.

Stafford didn't appear in court Wednesday. He's expected to attend at a later date to enter a plea.

The charge stems from the July 18 incident outside Sweetwaters bar on King Street.

Begin was celebrating his engagement to a city woman that night when he was arrested by police.

Begin accused officers of roughing him up and injuring him.

Fredericton police Chief Barry MacKnight asked the Mounties to conduct an investigation into the allegations against members of his department and into Begin's conduct.

The Mounties filed the charges against Begin on Jan. 7. The July 18 obstruction charges allege Begin resisted arrest and failed to identify himself to a police officer.

He faces four other charges - two of mischief and two of obstruction - stemming from a separate incident alleged to have occurred July 10.

In an interview with The Daily Gleaner last summer, Begin said he sustained back injuries, cuts and bruises and blacked out as a result of excessive police force during the arrest.

On July 10, there was a disturbance reported to Fredericton police. In that case, a man allegedly ran across the top of a cruiser parked in front of Sweetwaters and escaped arrest.

Begin said that on July 18 he was thrown to the ground by members of the police force after one of the officers said he recognized Begin from the July 10 incident.

Stafford was on duty at the time of the incident.

He was suspended July 23, two days after a public complaint was received by the force.

The complaint was filed after a video was posted online that appears to show an officer using his knee to strike Begin's back during the arrest.

On Sept. 14, he was reinstated and assigned to administrative duties. He remains on office duty.
 
SupersonicMax said:
Here's the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwejxZ0VzTA
I don't remember being told that knee strikes to the back were "good to go" in my Use of Force training...
 
They are.........and if you read the thread you will see were ZC and myself explained this.

 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
They are.........and if you read the thread you will see were ZC and myself explained this.

Obviously, in the RCMP's opinion, this wasn't one of those occasions.

Unfortunately, the RCMP took the "let's throw a pile of crap against the wall and see how much of it sticks" method of laying charges.  It will be very interesting to see the outcome of the trials, and hear about the testimony of the various witnesses offering alibis, etc.
 
WR said:
Enforcement Defensive Tactics training. It can be used as a distraction technique or as a form of pain compliance.
The moral of the story is if you are given a command by an Law Enforcement Officer you comply and when things have calmed down you explain your side. If the soldier was innocent and had done nothing as he claimed, he would be released and minus a few injuries.

Yes, minus a few debilitating injuries. Potentially tour ending injuries. And taking 4 hard knee blows to the spine is no joke.

Those 4 knee strikes were bullshit, plain and simple.
 
bdave said:
Yes, minus a few debilitating injuries. Potentially tour ending injuries. And taking 4 hard knee blows to the spine is no joke.

Those 4 knee strikes were bullshit, plain and simple.

bdave,
Here I will give you a summary of the last 5 pages from people who do this for a living...

-do not resist when given direction from a LEO
-if you do resist expect force to be used
-knee strikes are a universally taught technique for defensive tactics

Do you think maybe the officer should have asked please several times for him to comply??
Maybe a "care bear stare"? How about a severe finger wagging?

When you grow up you will realize there are a lot of bad people in the world that train, try and do hurt LEO's. The officers on the scene have to win the fight and do what is necessary to make the subject comply.
 
WR said:
-do not resist when given direction from a LEO
-if you do resist expect force to be used
-knee strikes are a universally taught technique for defensive tactics

Sounds like these measures worked out really well for Mr. Wu.

Again, for the record, I'm normally very supportive of the police, and have members of my family in law enforcement.  However, the fact that the RCMP laid a charge against the Fredericton Police officer leads me to believe that excessive force is suspected of being used.
 
There has been a loss of productive time for not only the CF ( as mentioned in the Subject Line ), but also for the City of Fredericton. The Constable has been off regular duty since five days after the incident:
http://www.fredericton.ca/en/publicsafety/2010jan13assaultchargelaidagainstofficer.asp
 
Occam said:
Sounds like these measures worked out really well for Mr. Wu.

Again, for the record, I'm normally very supportive of the police, and have members of my family in law enforcement.  However, the fact that the RCMP laid a charge against the Fredericton Police officer leads me to believe that excessive force is suspected of being used.

Occam,
What an unbelievable correlation you made. I do not know the true story of what happened to Mr Wu, but the media's account cannot always be believed. This may be shocking to you, but sometimes the media have an agenda and do not report accurately. I am not saying the VPD officers were right or justified, but don't believe the initial accounts on everything you read.

Here is a link to show assaults against LEO's are on the rise and there are smaller sentances associated with the assualt

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2009004/article/10930-eng.htm#a2

Here is a link for you to read to see why LEO's don't like to lose a fight.

http://www.odmp.org/



mariomike said:
There has been a loss of productive time for not only the CF ( as mentioned in the Subject Line ), but also for the City of Fredericton. The Constable has been off regular duty since five days after the incident:
http://www.fredericton.ca/en/publicsafety/2010jan13assaultchargelaidagainstofficer.asp

Let the courts decide if the officers actions were correct, but with investigations against LEO's the investigation will always err on the side of caution and lay charges so the courts can decide innocence or guilt.  This will shut up  the "anti-law enforcement" special intrest groups and their supporters.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2003/11/05/to_vassdecision20031105.html
 
WR said:
Occam,
What an unbelievable correlation you made. I do not know the true story of what happened to Mr Wu, but the media's account cannot always be believed. This may be shocking to you, but sometimes the media have an agenda and do not report accurately. I am not saying the VPD officers were right or justified, but don't believe the initial accounts on everything you read.

What are you talking about?  What media reports?  Did you even read the story?

Here...this spells it out a bit better for you.

Vancouver Police Friday announced that a 44-year-old man who suffered injuries to his face did not resist arrest, contradicting earlier reports that he did.

"It was premature in a media release to say the individual was resisting arrest and that's a statement we're not standing by," said Vancouver Police Chief Jim Chu.
 
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