Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Zoomie]

Do you think the other people living in the NCR should get a COL adjustment?  How about all the civvies living in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, etc?  I doubt very much that they get "PLD". 

PLD/AAA/whatever is another nice like perk that some of us get.  Obviously there are other people who manage to live in those same cities, making less money than us -yet  somehow they still manage.

It's called making a budget and being reasonable with your life choices.  If I live in Greenwood I know that I can buy a 10 acre property and 3000+ Sqft home for mid 200's -  I shouldn't expect to get the same in Comox. 

 

[PuckChaser]

Do you think the other people living in the NCR should get a COL adjustment?  How about all the civvies living in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, etc?  I doubt very much that they get "PLD". 

Civvies get to pick where they work, we get forced to remote/expensive markets with no rhyme or reason. With that logic, should we get rid of the 100% Home Equity loss benefit because civvies don't get it?

PLD is a perk, yes. But its a perk we get because we have unlimited liability to the Queen and Government of Canada, civvies can just say "I'm not doing that" and quit.

 

[Tow Tripod]

PLD is a perk, yes. But its a perk we get because we have unlimited liability to the Queen and Government of Canada, civvies can just say "I'm not doing that" and quit.

Puckchaser, it should be no surprise that it's not just civvies that say " I'm not doing that" and quit. Some people will wait for pension needs but many are just a walking away.

 

[CountDC]

PLD is a perk to help us maintain the same standard of living regardless of where the military sends us.  Thus when Pte Jones leaves Greenwood for Toronto he (hopefully) does not have to move his family into a bachelor pad on skid row and line up at the food bank so his son can play hockey.

Back in the late 80's a friend of mine worked at the dockyards as a shipwright.  The union was going through some discussion on pay equity at the time and one of the issues was that the shipwrights in BC were paid more than Halifax.  Of course they did not feel this was fair as they had the same qualifications, same designation and were doing the same work for less pay.  It was explained to them that the pay was higher as the cost of living was higher.  Don't know if it is still like that but at one point at least some of the civvies were in a sense paid PLD in the form of higher wages.

Oh - at the time they were told the pay would never be the same straight across the board as the thought was that there would be a mass request for transfer to the area with the lower cost of living and they would have trouble filling positions in the higher area. I couldn't see it myself but some people....

 

[Pusser]

For years, the Public Service did have regional rates of pay, but to the best of my knowledge that is being (or has been) phased out.

The East Coast and West Coast dockyard unions are a little different though.  Hindsight is only 20/20 when it's convenient sometimes.  The first thing to realize is that each coast has it's own union and thus bargains separately with Treasury Board.  Before the 80s there had been a need to reduce costs.  The West Coast union accepted more layoffs in order to reduce costs, but in exchange, received higher rates of pay for the remainder.  The East Coast accepted lower pay in exchange for fewer layoffs.  In effect, the East Coast union was not treated badly.  They got what they asked for and then quickly forgot a few details.

 

[Trouble]

  PLD is an allowance NOT an entitlement, initiated to try and help elevate higher costs from one province/area to the next. There are multiple factors and calculations used to determine the rates for certain areas.  Picture a bullseye with one black dot in the middle, and a large circle around it. The dot in the middle is the centre of the geographical area,  any bases or military establishments that fall within that outer circle are entitled to PLD for that geographical area.  The military does not want members becoming dependent on it. It is not a part of your pay that's why it is not included in a statement of earnings or an employment verification used when applying for a mortgage or a loan.  The same as any other allowance it can be reduced or even eliminated at any time.  That is why the changes were made in regards to it being deposited separately. Prior to April 2011 PLD was added to your pay and deposited in one payment. Now you amount is divided in 2 (mid & end month) added to your pay then taxed, the remaining PLD amount after taxes is then subtracted from your pay (PLD acquittance roll) and deposited separately.

 

[aesop081]

  PLD is an allowance NOT an entitlement, initiated to try and help elevate higher costs from one province/area to the next.

Thanks. I don't know how we ever managed managed without your insights.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

  PLD is an allowance NOT an entitlement, initiated to try and help elevate higher costs from one province/area to the next. There are multiple factors and calculations used to determine the rates for certain areas.  Picture a bullseye with one black dot in the middle, and a large circle around it. The dot in the middle is the centre of the geographical area,  any bases or military establishments that fall within that outer circle are entitled to PLD for that geographical area.  The military does not want members becoming dependent on it. It is not a part of your pay that's why it is not included in a statement of earnings or an employment verification used when applying for a mortgage or a loan.  The same as any other allowance it can be reduced or even eliminated at any time.  That is why the changes were made in regards to it being deposited separately. Prior to April 2011 PLD was added to your pay and deposited in one payment. Now you amount is divided in 2 (mid & end month) added to your pay then taxed, the remaining PLD amount after taxes is then subtracted from your pay (PLD acquittance roll) and deposited separately.

This forum isn't like a Recruit briefing 1st week at CFLRS, just so you know.  Pretty much everything you said is common knowledge.

 

[GAP]

This forum isn't like a Recruit briefing 1st week at CFLRS, just so you know.  Pretty much everything you said is common knowledge.

You would think so, but post after post on a variety of topics that have been explained repeatedly fail to have an impact on the craniums of some......

So....while it may be common knowledge to you and yours, that might not be the case for others...

 

[s_other]

The same as any other allowance it can be reduced or even eliminated at any time.  That is why the changes were made in regards to it being deposited separately.

I've heard this line of reasoning before, but it still makes little sense.  Why not perform this same practice with all the allowances??  It's obvious they're tracking PLD separately for a reason, and it's certainly not so it can be read easier on your pay stub.

 

[Occam]

I've heard this line of reasoning before, but it still makes little sense.  Why not perform this same practice with all the allowances??  It's obvious they're tracking PLD separately for a reason, and it's certainly not so it can be read easier on your pay stub.

I'm quite certain it was just as easy to track before the change as it is after the change.  The figures are simply displayed on your pay stub in a different location.

 

[CountDC]

and I am quite certain you are right.  The change really did not make a difference in tracking and does simply make it stand out on your pay statement. 

 

[dapaterson]

and I am quite certain you are right.  The change really did not make a difference in tracking and does simply make it stand out on your pay statement.

Which is the stated intent - to make it clear that PLD is not part of your pay, and should not be relied on when making long-term financial decisions, as it is subject to change.

 

[opcougar]

For the Log and admin folks here, need your help wrt to the quote email I received today

"Unfortunately there was an error that was made in authorizing your PLD.  The Brantford  PLD rate as of 1 Apr 08 is $0.  If you were not in receipt of PLD before 1 Apr 08, you are not entitled to TPLD.

As you were actually not entitled to it,  there will be a recovery on your pay.  Because PLD is now paid as an Acquittance Roll, we won't know the exact amount before the pay is "Dropped" around 1 March 2012.  We realize that this is very frustrating to you but unfortunately we must action this recovery.  "

Considering I didn't know my entitlements when joined and only went by what was told to me by recruiting, and the units have served at, what are my options in this case? If there is a memo that needs to be written, does anybody have a template pls?

thx in advance

 

[Grunt_031]

Good luck. I feel your pain. In the old days you did not have any advance warning until you received your pay and a big chuck was missing. In my experience you will need to pay this back. You can usually soften the blow by requesting by memo thru the CoC to pay back in installments. Your admin staff usually are on your side and will help take the sting out, but in the end if you where not entitled to it, the crown will get her money back. And "I didn't know or wasn't told" will not help. It is your duty to be acquainted the the QR&O's and DOAD's and is more than likely written in your PDR part 1.

 

[SentryMAn]

Talk to your units pay clerks if possible.

They like to take it all out in one chunk but if you can be level headed and negotiate they may spread it over a few pays if it is a large sum.

Other then that you will be paying the money back from my experience in a similar "over pay" situation.

 

[MJP]

I have read and helped on a few redresses on situations similar to this one.  In every case regardless of the circumstances of the overpayment, the mbr had to repay the amounts.

You are entitled to repay the amount you got overpaid by the amount of time it was your account was overpaid, but you have to ask for it.  So if you got overpaid for 10 months, then you can pay it back over ten months.  There is actual direction on this but I don't have access to the DIN to find the documentation.

 

[CountDC]

Don't waste time with a redress - it will have to be paid back.

Here is a link that will help if you have access:  http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/cfa-oaf/203-03-eng.asp

and if you don't then a little info:

QR&O 203.04 requires that every officer and non-commissioned member be acquainted with the rates of pay, allowances and other financial benefits and expenses to which they may be entitled, and with the conditions governing their issue.

and the big section you need:

CFAO 203-3

SECTION 2 -- EXTENSION OF RECOVERY PERIOD
7. Recovery of an overpayment, advance of unearned pay and allowances, or deduction for dependants' medical care or dental treatment shall normally be made either in one sum or by monthly deductions in the pay account. In the case of monthly deductions, the amount may be recovered over the greater of:

a. a period not exceeding six months; or

b. a period equal to the period over which the overpayment was made.

The accounting officer shall notify Director Pay Services 5 (DPS 5), by message, of the recovery period and rate.

8. If a recovery period that exceeds the CO's authority is considered warranted, the CO shall submit a request to the parent command headquarters (CHQ) including:

a. the amount to be recovered and details of the circumstances which led to the overpayment, efforts, if any, the member made or should have made to prevent or minimize the overpayment and action taken to prevent recurrence of a similar overpayment;

b. the recommended rate and period of recovery -- the recovery rate which, based on assessment of the member's financial situation will liquidate the debit balance as soon as possible without causing the member undue financial hardship;

c. confirmation that recovery is being made currently at the rate recommended for approval in subparagraph b, and the recovery commencement date; and

d. a detailed statement supporting the recommendation for extended recovery at subparagraph b. The statement shall show the member's gross pay and allowances, recurring deductions and budgeted monthly expenditures.

9. The parent CHQ shall review the request, make sure it is properly documented, add its recommendation, and then send it to NDHQ/DPS for decision.

10. The decision to approve or deny an extended recovery period for an overpayment, advance of unearned pay and allowances, or deduction for dependants' medical care or dental treatment is based primarily on the member's ability to repay. For an overpayment, the decision is also influenced by the circumstances leading to it, in particular the member's action, if any, required under paragraph 4. Submissions received by NDHQ/DPS with insufficient information will be returned through the parent CHQ to the unit for further substantiation.


Now for my recommendation:

Do a memo to the  CO/Compt requesting that the recovery be done over a period equal to the period over which the overpayment was made.  I highly doubt you will get a better deal - I have never seen one given.  Address it through the pay office and get it done yesterday.  Once they have received it all recovery action should stop until they get the response back.  This can be important because sometimes the answer takes several weeks giving the member a bit of breathing room to prepare for the lost pay.  Remember you will be losing the PLD amount off your pay plus paying back what you were paid - ie if you recieved $100 a month you lose $200 plus a month. 

If you can prove that it will cause extreme and unreasonable hardship on your family then by all means try for a longer period.  Note that not being able to afford rogers extreme internet does not qualify.  You would have to prove that you could not afford the basics of life.

and a correction - note that no where in there does it say you are entitled to repay the amount over the period it was overpaid.  You can request it and the CO (although I have always seen the Compt) can (and always has) approve it.  If they were to do one lump then a redress would most likely pass as I am sure you could argue the amount would meet the test of the above paragraph.

Now get that memo in.  here is a basic format (I just know someone is going to jump on something - havent done a memo in awhile):

7000-1 (PERS)

DATE

CO (thru Fin O)

RECOVERY OF PLD OVERPAYMENT

Refs:  A. email subj from/to date
B. CFAO 203-3 section 2 Para 7 (b)

1.  I, rank name sn, hereby req recovery in ref A be actioned IAW with ref B.

2.  Request the recovery be actioned starting  month year over xxx pay periods that corresponds to the period of the overpayment.  If approved I also req that the pay office notify me of the monthly amount to be deducted and my net monthly pay so I can properly budget.

3.  For your consideration and approval.

respectfully;





<sign>
name
rank

 

[MJP]

and a correction - note that no where in there does it say you are entitled to repay the amount over the period it was overpaid.  You can request it and the CO (although I have always seen the Compt) can (and always has) approve it.  If they were to do one lump then a redress would most likely pass as I am sure you could argue the amount would meet the test of the above paragraph.

Thanks for the clarifications.  I have never seen a member turned down for repayment over a fixed period, so I figured it was an entitlement. I always let the experts deal with it after I help the mbr draft up a memo.

 

[opcougar]

Thank you everyone, especially CountDC

Really appreciate the input and the advice from everyone. The first I did was go see the OR to sign a cancellation of PLD form. It has not been stopped on the system, and have been told that by the end of the week, I should know the complete figure

Right now we have an estimate of 3,037 in PLD that was piad out to me over 4yrs. I am not going to fight the error as advised by everyone here, but rather pursue the memo route asking to have it paid back over the same period of time.

Cheers