Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[SupersonicMax]

Especially if the CAF/TBS decide that 7 years in the same residence doesn't start fresh on 1 Jul 23.

The counter will start on 1 Jul 23. A note on that: going IR doesn’t reset the counter.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Why don't you ask the spouse of a standard pay group Pte/S1/Avr posted to Esq who is living in PMQs with a young child....who are in Qs because they can't get or afford a mortgage, and can't get a posting out of there?

They might have a metric to share.

They already get relief from RHU price. They can’t pay more than 25% of their gross salary in rent.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Why don't you ask the spouse of a standard pay group Pte/S1/Avr posted to Esq who is living in PMQs with a young child....who are in Qs because they can't get or afford a mortgage, and can't get a posting out of there?

They might have a metric to share.

When I was a Pte with no kids in 1978 there was no way I could afford a house in Petawawa. I don't think most folks in their first 4 years of an entry level job could ever afford a house anywhere.
Not sure your example is a metric.

 

[markppcli]

When I was a Pte with no kids in 1978 there was no way I could afford a house in Petawawa. I don't think most folks in their first 4 years of an entry level job could ever afford a house anywhere.
Not sure your example is a metric.

Your right. They should have made sure not to have a kid before they joined.

 

[dimsum]

They already get relief from RHU price. They can’t pay more than 25% of their gross salary in rent.

Also, @Eye In The Sky - the comparison would be if said family had to rent on the economy.

Compare an RHU price (which has no HD) to a 2-bedroom price but minus HD. If they did the math right, they should equal out.

I guess the bigger question here is whether the rates for RHUs are changing then? They used to be a set price, regardless of rank, for a type of place...and fluctuated depending on location and market rate. So is that all going out the window and only based on 25% (or less) of a member's gross monthly pay?

 

[Furniture]

When I was a Pte with no kids in 1978 there was no way I could afford a house in Petawawa. I don't think most folks in their first 4 years of an entry level job could ever afford a house anywhere.
Not sure your example is a metric.

Those pers are losing $816 a month in PLD, while "Economic Increases" will take the sting out of it, that's all they do.

Edit: I suspect a lot of people were expecting the EI to make life easier, not make up for the loss of other allowances, but keep them about the same.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't understand the PLD thingy at all, so I can't comment,......but just as an average ex-govt worker, if the folks I worked with were handed this raise, they'd be tap dancing in the street.

PLD was a COL adjustment for people who were posted to a high COL area after training or during the course of their career. It wasn't just for housing costs, but taxes, etc as well. It hadn't been updated in years and was due for an overhaul.

This included folks who were in PMQs; svc couples got 75%/ea of the rate.

Where I think the CAF/TB has errored is in taking this PLD replacement allowance from mbrs in CFHA homes/RHUs. Rates are based on 'fair market value' for the area.

 

[Underway]

There is a bit of math here going on.

First here's where I'm coming from. I get a pay increase. I also get no change to my PLD conversion to CFHD, which is already $0 and despite my region actually getting CFHD due to the pay increase I'm over the benifit number.

I'll take a stab at it; how about "every jnr NCM posted to Esq and Pat Bay" for starters. It's not like the COL was forgiving there before the current rates of inflation. I've heard inflation is 15-19% - this COL increase is less than that. Now add in, they're living in RHUs, because the housing costs out there are crazy.

Are you okay with those people now worrying and struggling?

This is incorrect as far as I can tell.

In Esquimalt running the quick numbers, for non-spec MS you get more money. Pay increase and the CFHD is roughly equivalent to the current PLD ($10 less) so your up about ~$360 a month. For a spec 2 MS you're still ahead $190 dollars per month.

If you're an S3 you're really benefiting. Your PLD replacement went from $810 to $1850. So you can actually afford to rent an appartment and you know... live.

For me if I was getting PLD in Esquimalt my pay change would be... +$246 pay, -460 CFHD which is a net loss of $214 a month. So a Jr. Lt(N) is out about $2600 a year. Of course I expect environmental allowances to change as well.

In order for you to break even you generally need to be category 11 for pay. $8100-8299 for your pay AFTER you account for the pay increase. Which you won't see as a non-spec NCM until you are around MWO or CPO2.

These numbers are for Esquimalt and Victoria only. Please someone check my math as it was a quick look.

 

[Halifax Tar]

They already get relief from RHU price. They can’t pay more than 25% of their gross salary in rent.

That doesn't change the COL in Esq.

It also doesn't change the fact a good portion of the RCN see less $$$ deposited into their accounts every 1st and 15th.

We will see by Aug 1 pay drop. That will be D-day for lots of folks.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Your right. They should have made sure not to have a kid before they joined.

Hope you ducked when what I was saying went over your head.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There is a bit of math here going on.

First here's where I'm coming from. I get a pay increase. I also get no change to my PLD conversion to CFHD, which is already $0 and despite my region actually getting CFHD due to the pay increase I'm over the benifit number.



This is incorrect as far as I can tell.

In Esquimalt running the quick numbers, for non-spec MS you get more money. Pay increase and the CFHD is roughly equivalent to the current PLD ($10 less) so your up about ~$360 a month. For a spec 2 MS you're still ahead $190 dollars per month.

If you're an S3 you're really benefiting. Your PLD replacement went from $810 to $1850. So you can actually afford to rent an appartment and you know... live.

For me if I was getting PLD in Esquimalt my pay change would be... +$246 pay, -460 CFHD which is a net loss of $214 a month. So a Jr. Lt(N) is out about $2600 a year. Of course I'm on ship so environmental allowances cover that off.

In order for you to break even you generally need to be category 11 for pay. $8100-8299 for your pay AFTER you account for the pay increase. Which you won't see as a non-spec NCM until you are around MWO or CPO2.

Except those people in RHUs who can't get / afford a mortgage....and who won't have a choice now.

 

[Halifax Tar]

When I was a Pte with no kids in 1978 there was no way I could afford a house in Petawawa. I don't think most folks in their first 4 years of an entry level job could ever afford a house anywhere.
Not sure your example is a metric.

Just because I like you, I thought you'd like to know I was born in 1979.

 

[SupersonicMax]

That doesn't change the COL in Esq.

It also doesn't change the fact a good portion of the RCN see less $$$ deposited into their accounts every 1st and 15th.

We will see by Aug 1 pay drop. That will be D-day for lots of folks.

COL (other than housing) is high everywhere. The normal benchmark is to pay less than 30% of the family gross income in housing costs. This is normally an indicator that you can live within your means. The CAFHD allows for that.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

When I was a Pte with no kids in 1978 there was no way I could afford a house in Petawawa. I don't think most folks in their first 4 years of an entry level job could ever afford a house anywhere.
Not sure your example is a metric.

There's a lot more established people entering the CAF now, though. I had 20+ people on BTL a few years back, alot of them with spouses and kids.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is a bit of math here going on.

First here's where I'm coming from. I get a pay increase. I also get no change to my PLD conversion to CFHD, which is already $0 and despite my region actually getting CFHD due to the pay increase I'm over the benifit number.



This is incorrect as far as I can tell.

In Esquimalt running the quick numbers, for non-spec MS you get more money. Pay increase and the CFHD is roughly equivalent to the current PLD ($10 less) so your up about ~$360 a month. For a spec 2 MS you're still ahead $190 dollars per month.

If you're an S3 you're really benefiting. Your PLD replacement went from $810 to $1850. So you can actually afford to rent an appartment and you know... live.

For me if I was getting PLD in Esquimalt my pay change would be... +$246 pay, -460 CFHD which is a net loss of $214 a month. So a Jr. Lt(N) is out about $2600 a year. Of course I'm on ship so environmental allowances cover that off.

In order for you to break even you generally need to be category 11 for pay. $8100-8299 for your pay AFTER you account for the pay increase. Which you won't see as a non-spec NCM until you are around MWO or CPO2.

And the CFHD scales down over time and disappears after 7 years in the same geo location. That's the killer for the RCN. The true effect is in 2030.

 

[Infanteer]

Why don't you ask the spouse of a standard pay group Pte/S1/Avr posted to Esq who is living in PMQs with a young child....who are in Qs because they can't get or afford a mortgage, and can't get a posting out of there?

They might have a metric to share.

When I was a Pte, I couldn't afford a mortgage. That being said, when I was young (as most Ptes are) home ownership wasn't high on the priority list. Should the CAF ensure that "all new members with zero training and expertise are able to afford a mortgage to buy a home?"

I know you really need to burnish your "defender of the troops against the senior leaders who only wish to dine on their corpses" credentials here, but you should actually work for it instead of just hurling hyperbole at me for asking a straightforward question.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

They already get relief from RHU price. They can’t pay more than 25% of their gross salary in rent.

I'd love to see the % of people in RHUs across Canada who are actually benefitting with this. I'm willing to bet the numbers are not significant.

So I'm not sure I'd categorize that as something with much weight.

 

[dimsum]

And the CFHD scales down over time and disappears after 7 years in the same geo location. That's the killer for the RCN. The true effect is in 2030.

I saw that it disappears after 7 years, but where does it say that it scales down over time (not counting promotions)?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Also, @Eye In The Sky - the comparison would be if said family had to rent on the economy.

Compare an RHU price (which has no HD) to a 2-bedroom price but minus HD. If they did the math right, they should equal out.

I guess the bigger question here is whether the rates for RHUs are changing then? They used to be a set price, regardless of rank, for a type of place...and fluctuated depending on location and market rate. So is that all going out the window and only based on 25% (or less) of a member's gross monthly pay?

I know what you're saying, I just think that formula is too rigid. I'm not out west, but talk to some of the fellas out there. I'm hearing things like multiple NCMs are renting a single house because no one can afford rent on their own, or in 2s. stuff like that...

 

[Furniture]

There is a bit of math here going on.

First here's where I'm coming from. I get a pay increase. I also get no change to my PLD conversion to CFHD, which is already $0 and despite my region actually getting CFHD due to the pay increase I'm over the benifit number.



This is incorrect as far as I can tell.

In Esquimalt running the quick numbers, for non-spec MS you get more money. Pay increase and the CFHD is roughly equivalent to the current PLD ($10 less) so your up about ~$360 a month. For a spec 2 MS you're still ahead $190 dollars per month.

If you're an S3 you're really benefiting. Your PLD replacement went from $810 to $1850. So you can actually afford to rent an appartment and you know... live.

For me if I was getting PLD in Esquimalt my pay change would be... +$246 pay, -460 CFHD which is a net loss of $214 a month. So a Jr. Lt(N) is out about $2600 a year. Of course I expect environmental allowances to change as well.

In order for you to break even you generally need to be category 11 for pay. $8100-8299 for your pay AFTER you account for the pay increase. Which you won't see as a non-spec NCM until you are around MWO or CPO2.

These numbers are for Esquimalt and Victoria only. Please someone check my math as it was a quick look.

You match checks out with my quick numbers as well... which should worry you, I'm not a mathmagician.

I think what a lot of people are missing, or not really weighing in the consideration of all of this is, cost of living went up a lot. People had likely hoped that the new EI and HD would make life easier for them, instead for some places like Esquimalt, it's simply changing the math on how they take home about the same amount of money...

Also, something I noticed in my read through, HD is 50% for CAF members who live together. I believe PLD was 75%, so for a service couple, HD is cutting even more from their pay...