Another Rant on Politicians & Parties: Split from Address by the Prime Minister

[2 Cdo]

Mr Dorosh, your arrogance is really showing today.

"Most people in these parts seem not to be up to the job."

Is there an implication that you are up to the job of engaging in a political discussion without being sarcastic? Sorry, not buying that. There are two subjects that can never be argued/debated without personal prejudices coming out loud and clear, religion and politics!

 

[Uberman]

On the contradictions and hypocrisy -

Ottawa â ” Stephen Harper came under fire yesterday from anti-racism groups and a member of his Conservative Party for what they say was a bid to cash in politically on the Holocaust and the internment of Japanese Canadians more than 60 years ago.

"It's just trying to score political points and I don't think that it's appropriate to do that with this particular issue," said Pat Case of the Canadian Race Relations Foundation. "Mr. Harper could learn a lesson or two from his own words," Tamara Kronis said. "The internment of Japanese Canadians and the legacy of 'None is too many' reminds us that there was a time in Canadian history when it was acceptable to discriminate against those minorities and to deny them equal treatment."

Ms. Kronis said that, as a Tory, she was "disappointed in Mr. Harper's lack of leadership and judgment on this issue, and in the insensitivity that is evident in his remarks."


I think that's where we should draw the line, and I don't want to get into the polygamy debate - but I fear if we do this, the next thing on the Liberal agenda will be polygamy and who knows what else," Harper said in a news conference. "Polygamy is ok for cows." - Stephen Harper


"This is bizarre, way out there," said a senior adviser to Nova Scotia Premier John Hamm ... "The strategy has got our political people just shaking their heads. Is this where you draw the line, really? How about dealing with issues that really affect our lives."
"Harper's gay marriage strategy exposes rift among Conservatives, Canadian Press, Jan. 27, 2005

"And make no mistake. Canada is not a bilingual country." Stephen Harper, "Official Bilingualism: The God That Failed," NCC
Online,


"Human rights commissions, as they are evolving, are an attack on our fundamental freedoms and the basic existence of a democratic society," says Stephen Harper, president of the National Citizens' Coalition. "It is in fact totalitarianism. I find this is very scary stuff." BC Report, January 11, 1999

"Stephen Harper - the leader of the Canadian Alliance, Canada's Official Opposition - trotted out a conspiracy theory this week so loopy he risks never being taken seriously again." Globe and Mail, September 6, 2003.

Harper's words: "We aren't going to let these guys off the hook ... They wanted to introduce this through back channels. They didn't want to come to Parliament, they didn't want to go to the Canadian people and be honest. They had the courts do it for them. They put the judges in they wanted, then they failed to appeal, failed to fight the case in court."


On Atlantic Canadians:

"There is a dependence in the region that breeds a culture of defeatism." www.cbc.ca, May 30, 2002.

I hope that establishes sufficient proof. As for the "red neck magic bag" well, perhaps ignorant or small minded or both would have been a better adjective. You are right, using terms such as red neck weakens my points and makes me look like I'm attacking him personally as opposed to his opinions. We'll keep our sticks on the ice.  

 

[Michael Dorosh]

So Michael stealing from the public and lying about it are traits that you admire in a person? Some politicians may work long hours and have to travel away from home( wow that sounds like my job, only for a lot less pay and just not the same accommodations) big f#cking deal. All I am asking for is a little INTEGRITY from our elected   officials, and failing that maybe some sort of recall mechanism for those who continually ignore the electorate that put them in office.
To be honest, I don't think that is asking too much. But to simply say"Oh well thats the way it is" is completely asinine and shows a level of indifference that is scary.

Indifference?  20 million voting Canadians can't be wrong...or shall I say 10 million of the ones that don't bother to vote.

I am not defending anyone, nor saying things should be the way they are, I am saying I seriously doubt your ability to understand or comprehend how politics work, or what motivates politicians to make their decisions.  I also feel you have no right to call names, rant, pout, cry or whine never having been one.  You may take exception with those decisions and make intelligent suggestions as to why you feel they are criminal, misguided or even in rare instances brilliant.  But you have as little right as I do to paint with a broad brush every politician that has held office in Canada in the last 50 years, since you really have as little clue as most of the rest of us, and as such, your opinion is not only meaningless, but dangerously uninformed.

Is anyone here a card-carrying member of a political party?  And active in their party, not just card carrying?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

So Uberman, what was wrong with his statements?  If they are genuinely believed by him - and by voters (I think he was on the money, judging by your out-of-context quotes) - is he not representing his constituents?  Or in other words, doing what he is supposed to do, whether you agree with him individually or not?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
well, perhaps ignorant or small minded
...yea, much better. :

Quote,
I hope that establishes sufficient proof

...Proof?. ???...you never took any interest in legal matters, did you?

 

[Uberman]

It's out of the hands of the intellectuals and into the hands of the "commoners" for lack of a better term.  They think words like "redneck" or monickers like "Papa Doc Crouton" are actual methods of stimulating poltical discussion.  Canadians don't know how, based on most of the comments in most forums I've seen, including radio shows and newspaper letters to the edtor, to discuss politics dispassionately and above all, intelligently.

I doubt you intentionally meant to cut yourself with your own sword, but referring to "us" as "commoners" commits the very same "intellectual offence" you charged "Canadians" with. Aside from the logical fallacy inherent in stating "Canadians don't know . . . " especially if you are a Canadian, the very thought that politics should be a dispassionate debate is in stark contrast of every western democracy in existence.  I will accept that name calling has no place in a debate, however, your comments offer nothing to the essence of the thread nor the substance of the debate other than to say that Canadians don't get the point.  For the record, I have a degree in political studies and a law degree. I most certainly know how to debate intelligently.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

..and would the "proof" you showed us get a conviction??        I didn't think so.....

 

[2 Cdo]

Indifference?   20 million voting Canadians can't be wrong...or shall I say 10 million of the ones that don't bother to vote.

I am not defending anyone, nor saying things should be the way they are, I am saying I seriously doubt your ability to understand or comprehend how politics work, or what motivates politicians to make their decisions.   I also feel you have no right to call names, rant, pout, cry or whine never having been one.   You may take exception with those decisions and make intelligent suggestions as to why you feel they are criminal, misguided or even in rare instances brilliant.   But you have as little right as I do to paint with a broad brush every politician that has held office in Canada in the last 50 years, since you really have as little clue as most of the rest of us, and as such, your opinion is not only meaningless, but dangerously uninformed.

Is anyone here a card-carrying member of a political party?   And active in their party, not just card carrying?

So now you insult my intelligence saying you doubt I can "understand or comprehend" how politics work. My opinion is "not only meaningless, but dangerously uninformed"
Read your own post  "have no right to call names, rant, pout, cry or whine".
You don't know me from Adam, don't know my education level, don't know my occupational experience, yet you leap to such profound conclusions. Tell me how well you did on your mind reading course! Start practicing what you preach  about generalizations and insults or feel free to p#ss off.

 

[Canadian Sig]

That sums up the whole state of political debate in this country, Bruce.  It's out of the hands of the intellectuals and into the hands of the "commoners" for lack of a better term.  They think words like "redneck" or momonikersike "Papa Doc Crouton" are actual methods of stimulating popoliticaliscussion.  Canadians don't know how, based on most of the comments in most forums I've seen, including radio shows and newspaper letters to the edteditoro discuss politics dispassionately and above all, intelligently.  Stuff like "lie-berals" just shuts down any possibility of reasoned discussion.  It's why one is well advised not to bother trying.  The sarcasm could be cut with a knife, and who wants to bother, really.  Most people in these parts seem not to be up to the job.

  Is there some reason that the debate should'shouldn'tthe hands of the commoners? Those commoners are the pepole who have to live with the elected government. As for words like red neck; I have an excellent post secondary education and I continue to expand it while serving full time in the military, yet I have no qualms referinreferringelf as a "red neck". So I guess education is'nt lisn'td to the "intellectuals" -roll eyes-.We (in this country) don't discuss politics dispatidispassionatelye politics are a pasionate topic. There are great differences in the way this country sees itself and in the way it thinks from coast to coast and those differing viewpoints can cause debate, friction and sometimes even fights. God forbid they lead to some innocent name calling. Just my Dos centavos

 

[Michael Dorosh]

 For the record, I have a degree in political studies and a law degree. I most certainly know how to debate intelligently.

Your other post really didn't prove that.  You regugitated a bunch of quotes and left them lying in the sun like a dead zebra.

 

[Uberman]

Bruce, this was your comment -

Quote,
Harper's a man of contradictions and hypocrisy - who knows what he'd pull out of his red neck magic bag.

..the first part of that sentence REQUIRES proof before posting and the second part shows a lack of class on your part.

For his contradictions and hypocrisy, I provided news articles tending to show that his comments tend to either contradict his party's platform / policies / etc. or have the effect of calling other parties into question on statements / policies Harper holds for himself. As for whether I could secure a criminal conviction based on these hearsay statement, I'll leave that to a court of law. As for whether my collection of news clips provides me adequate foundation to state my belief that Harper contradicts himself and his party and is hypocritical - I have no doubt.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

2 CDO,
Here we go again, please read and digest before you post, here i will highlight the parts to pay attention to.

Quote from Michael Dorosh,
  But you have as little right as I do to paint with a broad brush every politician that has held office in Canada in the last 50 years, since you really have as little clue as most of the rest of us, and as such, your opinion is not only meaningless, but dangerously uninformed.

Please stop taking everything as a personal attack, its getting long in the tooth.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

  Is there some reason that the debate should'shouldn'tthe hands of the commoners? Those commoners are the pepole who have to live with the elected government. As for words like red neck; I have an excellent post secondary education and I continue to expand it while serving full time in the military, yet I have no qualms referinreferringelf as a "red neck". So I guess education is'nt lisn'td to the "intellectuals" -roll eyes-.We (in this country) don't discuss politics dispatidispassionatelye politics are a pasionate topic. There are great differences in the way this country sees itself and in the way it thinks from coast to coast and those differing viewpoints can cause debate, friction and sometimes even fights. God forbid they lead to some innocent name calling. Just my Dos centavos

I count myself firmly among those who "don't get it."  That's the point.  See my post in the PM thread.  We're so busy picking at flyshit, we forget to talk about the pepper.  

Yes, God should forbid "innocent name calling", so should we all.  It accomplishes zero.

Go back and read this post again, inserting the words "hey dickhead" as my opening sentence, tell me what effect it has.

 

[Uberman]

Michael, in my first post I attempted to provide some political opinions as to how Canada got to this point in time. But for the red herring, I've not received any response to the gravaman, or essence, of my post. (That will learn me for speaking venacular) I would be greatly interested in hearing your perspective with respect to whether we are in an "isolated incident" or the end result of a 200 year old time bomb. Cheers

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

On the contradictions and hypocrisy -

Ottawa â ” Stephen Harper came under fire yesterday from anti-racism groups and a member of his Conservative Party for what they say was a bid to cash in politically on the Holocaust and the internment of Japanese Canadians more than 60 years ago.

"It's just trying to score political points and I don't think that it's appropriate to do that with this particular issue," said Pat Case of the Canadian Race Relations Foundation. "Mr. Harper could learn a lesson or two from his own words," Tamara Kronis said. "The internment of Japanese Canadians and the legacy of 'None is too many' reminds us that there was a time in Canadian history when it was acceptable to discriminate against those minorities and to deny them equal treatment."

Ms. Kronis said that, as a Tory, she was "disappointed in Mr. Harper's lack of leadership and judgment on this issue, and in the insensitivity that is evident in his remarks."

Umm, so some wingnuts call him a hypocrite.

I think that's where we should draw the line, and I don't want to get into the polygamy debate - but I fear if we do this, the next thing on the Liberal agenda will be polygamy and who knows what else," Harper said in a news conference. "Polygamy is ok for cows." - Stephen Harper

He's against polygamy: this make him a hypocrite?  I don't ever recall him saying he was in favour of it.

"This is bizarre, way out there," said a senior adviser to Nova Scotia Premier John Hamm ... "The strategy has got our political people just shaking their heads. Is this where you draw the line, really? How about dealing with issues that really affect our lives."
"Harper's gay marriage strategy exposes rift among Conservatives, Canadian Press, Jan. 27, 2005

So the premier of Nova Scotia has a different view of gay marriage: how is this contradictory or hypocritical?

"And make no mistake. Canada is not a bilingual country." Stephen Harper, "Official Bilingualism: The God That Failed," NCC
Online,

He claims that Official Billigualism is a failure: there are MANY that would agree with him.  Not sure what how he's contradicting himself or being a "redneck" (which is a rather discriminatory term in itself, isn't it?) ...

"Human rights commissions, as they are evolving, are an attack on our fundamental freedoms and the basic existence of a democratic society," says Stephen Harper, president of the National Citizens' Coalition. "It is in fact totalitarianism. I find this is very scary stuff." BC Report, January 11, 1999

I tend to agree: if we weren't slaves to the socialist/authoritarian ideals of "human rights commissions," we might actually be able to protect human rights.

"Stephen Harper - the leader of the Canadian Alliance, Canada's Official Opposition - trotted out a conspiracy theory this week so loopy he risks never being taken seriously again." Globe and Mail, September 6, 2003.

Oh, so some hack at the Globe and Mail slanders him: case closed, I guess (no wonder they call you guys sheeple).

Harper's words: "We aren't going to let these guys off the hook ... They wanted to introduce this through back channels. They didn't want to come to Parliament, they didn't want to go to the Canadian people and be honest. They had the courts do it for them. They put the judges in they wanted, then they failed to appeal, failed to fight the case in court."

God forbid he'd say something accurate but damaging to the Liberal Party:  maybe you are beholden to the "what's bad for the Liberal Party is bad for Canada" contention?  http://andrewcoyne.com/2005/04/will-work-for-judicial-appointments.php

On Atlantic Canadians:

"There is a dependence in the region that breeds a culture of defeatism." www.cbc.ca, May 30, 2002.

Someone had to say it!  If you pay people not to work guess what will eventually happen: they're aren't going to want to work.

I hope that establishes sufficient proof.

It is suffiicient truth that Liberals and Socialist are trying to paint him as a rednieck, but absent any evidence, is slander.

As for the "red neck magic bag" well, perhaps ignorant or small minded or both would have been a better adjective. You are right, using terms such as red neck weakens my points and makes me look like I'm attacking him personally as opposed to his opinions. We'll keep our sticks on the ice. 

You are attacking him personally: you are calling him a redneck (or small-minded, or whatever other euphamism you want to use for slander) that has no basis.  All that your post indicates is that the only proof that you have to offer that he's a redneck is that other people have said it!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

If all Harper said was "Canada is not a bilingual country", well, he's RIGHT!  In practice, we are not.  I don't speak French or read French, and can't recall the last time I've seen anything in French that I needed to be able to interpret.  In Alberta, it is as if French doesn't exist.  How is that bilingual?

 

[Uberman]

My thinking is that Harper would definately told Quebec where to place their referendum. For the record, I think he probably should have. I would miss Montreal though.

 

[onecat]

Micheal thanks I love the term "lie-berals" it so sums what up the party has become.  The party ( e.i. the Liberal party) has been in government too long and to use a common term; has grown fat with power and corruption. Martin maybe the man who allowed the Canadian the chance to look into their crimes, but he sure isn't the man to fix it.

It just too bad that there no other center party in Canada to take it place.  Although maybe a crushing defeat might force the Liberal party under go reforms and then maybe I can vote them again.  Until that time, they will never get my vote; and how any one can still vote for Martin or that matter support the party is beyond me.

"lie-berals" I'm going to have too make t-shirts and bumper sticks.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

 Until that time, they will never get my vote; and how any one can still vote for Martin or that matter support the party is beyond me.

Sad thing is, you'll never know why it is beyond your comprehension.  Good news - ignorance is bliss.

 

[Canadian Sig]

Sad thing is, you'll never know why it is beyond your comprehension.   Good news - ignorance is bliss.

  What is with you calling everybodys intellegence into question today? Are you a staunch liberal whos pi*sed because the big boss is looking bad in the polls or did your neighbor get up and relieve himself in your cornflakes this morning?