Another Rant on Politicians & Parties: Split from Address by the Prime Minister

[Brad Sallows]

I have noticed that of all the "fringe" privately-provided services for which I pay out of pocket or am covered by private insurance, I don't have to wait long, if at all.  I schedule an appointment (if one is necessary) in the next few days and go.

 

[Zipper]

In my opinion we need a public funded system that is universal and managed by the individual (and includes incentives for good management of health dollars).   I could care less who delivers the service, as long as it is timely and of high quality.

Ok I'll bite. How can you administer a system like that, as well as look after those who cannot afford to pay into the public fund? Also, (not that our system now isn't immune. Far from it.) how would you avoid rampant corruption and fraud? And how would you avoid the best Doctors going to the hospitals in the "better" parts of town and leaving the dregs to take care of the less fortunate (not that this isn't happening to a point today.)?

Brad - You either live in a small town or have the best (or worst) doctors availible. I have to make dentist appointments at least 2 weeks in advance, and at least a week for my doctor. Nothing I can't handle mind you.

 

[Infanteer]

Ok I'll bite. How can you administer a system like that, as well as look after those who cannot afford to pay into the public fund? Also, (not that our system now isn't immune. Far from it.) how would you avoid rampant corruption and fraud? And how would you avoid the best Doctors going to the hospitals in the "better" parts of town and leaving the dregs to take care of the less fortunate (not that this isn't happening to a point today.)?

http://army.ca/forums/threads/18097.0.html

Here is the "plan" I have been espousing all along - will it work?  I'm not sure, but it is a hell of alot better then all the scare-mongering and politicians promising to fix the system by dumping more money into it.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

http://army.ca/forums/threads/18097.0.html

Here is the "plan" I have been espousing all along - will it work?  I'm not sure, but it is a heck of alot better then all the scare-mongering and politicians promising to fix the system by dumping more money into it.

And here, too: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28296.0.html

The deja-vu was real!!! (And I thought I was losing my mind ...)

In terms of the more general topic, there IS however, a better way:

the Dungeons Death and Taxes party - whose registered address is tourist attraction the London Dungeons - is offering a suitably lurid manifesto.

It pledges to reintroduce hanging, "but only for minor offences such as writing graffiti and dropping litter". Murderers and those guilty of improper use of mobile text abbreviations will be disembowelled.

The new school leaving age would be nine, with "thickie" children forced to take up manual labour. The party also pledges to occupy and annexe France, and to have tax rates of 90%.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4494439.stm  :skull:

 

[Brad Sallows]

>And how would you avoid the best Doctors going to the hospitals in the "better" parts of town and leaving the dregs to take care of the less fortunate

First, I think you need to dispel the notion of "dregs" from your mind.  Medical schools don't exactly strive to obtain an exact cross-section of society in their annual intakes of students.  Second, with more privatization - and hence more opportunity - I would expect fewer doctors to emigrate, or even move between provinces.  I suppose that increasing the ratio of doctors per capita is good regardless where they practice.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Remember, your doctor only needed 80% to pass.... ;D

Kat

 

[a_majoor]

>And how would you avoid the best Doctors going to the hospitals in the "better" parts of town and leaving the dregs to take care of the less fortunate

First, I think you need to dispel the notion of "dregs" from your mind.  Medical schools don't exactly strive to obtain an exact cross-section of society in their annual intakes of students.  Second, with more privatization - and hence more opportunity - I would expect fewer doctors to emigrate, or even move between provinces.  I suppose that increasing the ratio of doctors per capita is good regardless where they practice.

In any market, Doctors go to "where the money is". Under the current system, where OHIP pays Doctors by the number of people they see (with the mind blowing result that a Dr running a wart clinic can make more money than a cardiac surgeon), the incentive is for Doctors to abandon rural areas and go to Toronto. (Orangeville has a great hospital in mothballs; abandoned because there are no Drs willing to work there). As a checksum, neither cities or rural areas seem to suffer an imbalance of Dentists, who do not operate under a government monopoly.

Obviously, in the initial stages of privatization, the citizens of Orangeville will have an incentive to pay almost any price to get medical staff for the hospital, while millions of consumers in Toronto will rapidly depress the price of medical service as they shop around among the plethora of Doctors. Some Doctors will see the writing on the wall (they got into medical school because they are smart, after all), and move to Orangeville or the rural areas where they can make a better living than in Toronto. Equalibrium will occur after a period of a few years.

While this will be distressing for people forced to live through it, the system has been systemicly distorted for so many decades that only a severe shock can fix it.

 

[Zipper]

Brad - Sorry. Poor choice of words there.

I still think the existing system can work, albeit not in its present form. Throwing more money at it has proved to do little but increase the problems as our population grows. Scrapping the system as well will do little but harm a great number of people, especially in the short term. The whole idea of it in the first place was to allow everyone to have access to healthcare. The problem is, its become its own monster as a cash cow for government (taxes). And since when did any government want to give up taxes when they didn't want too (GST)?

I agree with Majoor about a severe shock in order to fix it. I just prefer to have the shock in somewhere other then dismantling it entirely. There has to be other ways.

 

[Infanteer]

I still think the existing system can work, albeit not in its present form.

What is that supposed to mean?    ???

Talk about contradiction.

There has to be other ways

Well, lets hear them then.   I've taken the time to research another proposal and support it as a viable alternative.   You've said you don't like it.   Are you going to give us a better idea, or just be one of the sheep who cheers when politicians get into an orgy of "health care dollar dumping" for political cred (something you just admitted doesn't work).

 

[Zipper]

Sorry Inf. I didn't write the message to knock your idea. I'm still chewing on it. There is alot of stuff there.

Wow. Just finished reading it for the third time.

The MSA idea is not bad. I even think I like it. Its similiar to what the US is trying to do, but not quite. By keeping the medicare system that we have alive, but moving it into the realm of "emergency" care (REALLY emergency) alone makes alot of sense and would get rid of alot of undo spending. Then going to your system of cards for everything mundane as well as being controlled by you, (abuse it if you wish) is very good. I like the fact that you can either carry it over to the next year, or take it out to use as you see fit. Thus you can spend it and roll it back into the economy, or save it for RRSP's and thus give many people (who are smart) a more secure future. I'll leave it to you whether you want to repost it here or not.

The problem I see is the unions. There is NO WAY they are going to release their hold on what they have. I might also look at increasing the 1000 dollar part for those over a certain age because of the fact that drugs cost a freaking fortune. I'm going to mull it over some more and think up some other ideas to go along with it.

Wow. Bet your surprised I agreed with that eh?

 

[Zipper]

Ok some questions.

First. If you give people control of their own money/destiny as far as treatment is concerned, would that not also mean you would have to come up with some way of making clear how much it cost for each kind of treatment? That would be a very long list or brochure.

Now some examples that I would need clarification on. I'll use myself as the example and my own visits to the doctor. I'll also break this up in a few message as it may get way to long otherwise.

Back in high school (a long time ago) I had a major outbreak of warts on all of the middle fingers of both hands. My initial visit to my doctor would be covered my MSA card (?). Once he refers me to a dermatologist, would that also be on my MSA card? Or public? My visits to the specialist involved having an acid based paste put on each affected area and then taped up, with subsequent visits every few days to have more paste applied and to monitor my progress. Is the paste and my further visits on public or MSA? This went on for 4 weeks until the problem was satisfactorily taken care of. So it probably cost after all was said and done, quite a bit. Public or MSA?

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Ok some questions.

First. If you give people control of their own money/destiny as far as treatment is concerned, would that not also mean you would have to come up with some way of making clear how much it cost for each kind of treatment?

No.

That would be a very long list or brochure.

Now some examples that I would need clarification on. I'll use myself as the example and my own visits to the doctor. I'll also break this up in a few message as it may get way to long otherwise.

Back in high school (a long time ago) I had a major outbreak of warts on all of the middle fingers of both hands. My initial visit to my doctor would be covered my MSA card (?).

If you wanted it to (presumably yes).

Once he refers me to a dermatologist, would that also be on my MSA card?

Same answer.

Or public?

It is publicly-funded.

My visits to the specialist involved having an acid based paste put on each affected area and then taped up, with subsequent visits every few days to have more paste applied and to monitor my progress. Is the paste and my further visits on public or MSA? This went on for 4 weeks until the problem was satisfactorily taken care of. So it probably cost after all was said and done, quite a bit. Public or MSA?

It is all paid publicly: it is the delivery that is private.  The point is to reduce the strain on the medical system (i.e., doctor/hospital visits), by making less-critical claims (i.e., broken fingernails) discretionary.