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AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

There are always risks ... don't forget the SS Atlantic Conveyor and the FRA Sir Galahad in the Falklands War ...

c48b21af8ec35d3b1d23b18cfb96da9d.jpg

SS Atlantic Conveyor

and

RFA Sir Galahad
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The current issue of Espirit has a Davie created graphic with a comparison of capabilities and abilities between the JSS/Berlin (as currently designed for RCN) and Resolve/Asterix.
Nowhere does ammunition RAS appear, a pretty glaring omission that is not incidental.
I believe there is much good to be said for the Resolve, but it is a conversion and not a purpose built naval stores and supply ship with all of the additional features of the JSS. Then again, I would be hesitant to describe a tanker as a suitable "combat ship".
In a very good way, these two classes complement each other and together, they completely fill all of the voids in the AOR/JSS/Container/Hospital and most practical things of a "joint" nature.
Neither ship appears to be a complete answer to meet all of the requirements in the numbers that are under order.
It is clear a second Resolve class is required.
It is also clear if there are to be 15 CSC,  4 submarines, 6 AOPS and the Mcdv retained, then 4 supply ships are required. Only the JSS can meet the needs of each platform in the fleet, but 2 JSS cannot adequately serve the whole fleet and 4 JSS would be too expensive.
 
FSTO said:
Don't think that for a second that a less than capable platforms will be sent into high threat areas if the government says we are going there.
Iltis going to the Balkans and Afghanistan for example.

Oh, I think we set the bar even lower than that...how about not even having the right pattern/camo for troops going into harms way?  I seem to recall a lesson on 'why things are seen' when I was doing army stuff...

b3e86e59812c58a4a595c4fe391ad912.jpg
 
Was that really as big of an issue that it was made out to be? What difference did it make at night, for example. Not being sarcastic or challenging you,  just asking.
 
Uniform color can make a pretty big difference sometimes, other times it won't make any difference.  BUT..common sense...we don't wear winter whites in the summer right?  The CAF had zero ARID pattern CADPAT back then and so..well, less than ideal the troops went in green.  We don't paint tanks white or yellow in Canada because it makes it easier to see (and then kill) them.

Not to derail this thread on CADPAT patterns...the point was to support FTSOs statement that the GoC will send CAF units and people into areas with less than ideal kit, in this case a ship that isn't designed for high threat environments.

FSTO said:
Don't think that for a second that a less than capable platforms will be sent into high threat areas if the government says we are going there.
Iltis going to the Balkans and Afghanistan for example.
 
dapaterson said:
Right now Asterix is the most capable supply ship in the RCN.  Seaspan has yet to start cutting steel.  The NSS has failed; the Canadian shipbuilding industry remains mostly uncompetitive and reliant on overpriced government contracts.

Four Resolve class would be cheaper and provide more capability sooner than the pair of JSS NSS may deliver in the late 2020s.

Seaspan has a ship in the water for final finishing to be followed shortly by two more.  The first AOPS is essentially on schedule for launch.  The third has started its build.

NSS hasn't failed.  It's barely begun, for what is a 25-30 year program.

If you want to look at value for only the RCN then yes I agree there isn't any value for the RCN yet.  But behind schedule does not a failure make.  And to be honest the stated goals of the NSS only has the RCN fleet revitalization as one of multiple criteria for what success is measured by.

As for getting four Asterix class lets just test drive this one first for a bit before we run out and buy some more.  We don't know how well its going to work as it's an entirely new concept.  I expect the Admiralty wants to see how the new toy performs before we whistle up some more.  I honestly think that the pressure should be on for 3 Berlins instead of another Asterix.  And give Davie the heavy icebreaker build instead to move that up the timeline faster.
 
Underway said:
As for getting four Asterix class lets just test drive this one first for a bit before we run out and buy some more.  We don't know how well its going to work as it's an entirely new concept.  I expect the Admiralty wants to see how the new toy performs before we whistle up some more.  I honestly think that the pressure should be on for 3 Berlins instead of another Asterix.  And give Davie the heavy icebreaker build instead to move that up the timeline faster.

I would be in support of that concept.
 
Underway said:
Seaspan has a ship in the water for final finishing to be followed shortly by two more.  The first AOPS is essentially on schedule for launch.  The third has started its build.

NSS hasn't failed.  It's barely begun, for what is a 25-30 year program.

If you want to look at value for only the RCN then yes I agree there isn't any value for the RCN yet.  But behind schedule does not a failure make.  And to be honest the stated goals of the NSS only has the RCN fleet revitalization as one of multiple criteria for what success is measured by.

As for getting four Asterix class lets just test drive this one first for a bit before we run out and buy some more.  We don't know how well its going to work as it's an entirely new concept.  I expect the Admiralty wants to see how the new toy performs before we whistle up some more.  I honestly think that the pressure should be on for 3 Berlins instead of another Asterix.  And give Davie the heavy icebreaker build instead to move that up the timeline faster.

The main issue with the NSS, is it was about 10-15 years to late. It is a good idea in the long run.
 
RCAF CH-148 aboard MV Asterix--even CH-147F?

New MV Asterix could carry choppers

Though the Royal Canadian Navy’s newest ship, MV Asterix, will spend its days at sea, the use of helicopters aboard the vessel is likely to be an integral part of its operations.

The converted civilian container vessel will have the space and facilities to operate up to two helicopters, and experts say how the Canadian military decides to equip the vessel will have major implications on its functionality.

Spencer Fraser, CEO of Federal Fleet Services, the sister company of Chantier Davie Canada Inc. responsible for building and operating MV Asterix, told The Chronicle Herald the vessel was designed in consultation with the Royal Canadian Air Force and Canada’s fleet of helicopters in mind.

As such, the Asterix has two hangars designed for CH-148 Cyclone, but which is also capable of accommodating helicopters up to the size of a CH-147F Chinook -- although the Chinook has yet to be marinized [emphasis added--would be useful for humanitarian/distaster relief ops, on-shore support in safe areas).

“We've got a full capability on board, we can hangar two helicopters, we've got electronics workshops, we've got avionics workshops, we've got mechanical workshops, we've got a pilot ready room, pilot briefing room, pilot changing room, administration offices for the air detachment officers as well as an engineering office for the maintainers,” Fraser said...

Colin Darlington, retired navy commander and current vice-president of the Royal United Services Institute Nova Scotia said there hasn’t been much information put out there on the RCN’s plans for helicopter integration on the vessel.

...he said, the ship has many more capabilities than just that -- from quarters for humanitarian and rescue operations, even a floating hospital -- many of which will require the use of aircraft.
http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1533650-new-mv-asterix-could-carry-choppers

B97752015Z.120180103202959000GIBJDSKH.11.jpg


Mark
Ottawa

 
FFS is getting ahead of themselves. To my knowledge, there have been no trials conducted; no Ship/Helo Operational Limitations developed; no Clearance for Service issued for any RCAF helicopter.

Not saying it cannot/won't be done- just saying that it is not as simple as issuing a press release saying you can operate helicopters...
 
SeaKingTacco said:
FFS is getting ahead of themselves. To my knowledge, there have been no trials conducted; no Ship/Helo Operational Limitations developed; no Clearance for Service issued for any RCAF helicopter.

Not saying it cannot/won't be done- just saying that it is not as simple as issuing a press release saying you can operate helicopters...

Clearly you've never worked for a defence contractor.
 
It has been mission creep so to speak, they (the navy) do want to put an Air Det on her if at all possible.  They're asking all the equipment questions of our areas to fit it out.  Can't say how many hoops have been jumped through, but...
 
SeaKingTacco said:
FFS is getting ahead of themselves. To my knowledge, there have been no trials conducted; no Ship/Helo Operational Limitations developed; no Clearance for Service issued for any RCAF helicopter.

Not saying it cannot/won't be done- just saying that it is not as simple as issuing a press release saying you can operate helicopters...

You are of course quite correct.  How long do trials and Operations Limitations take to be developed normally?

They put hangers on there for a reason, which means the they will be able to operate helicopters in the future.

dapaterson said:
Clearly you've never worked for a defence contractor.

Don't forget the magic trick of making requirements "disappear" after the contract was won on those specific requirements!  ::)
 
I don't know about anything else, but I can tell you the comms requirements from SHOPs have been met, or will be shortly.
 
Underway said:
You are of course quite correct.  How long do trials and Operations Limitations take to be developed normally?

They put hangers on there for a reason, which means the they will be able to operate helicopters in the future.

What I find interesting is the juxtaposition of this discussion with:

FSTO said:
The USN Strategic Review was just released. I haven't had a chance to read the whole document but my favorite website has done a pretty good synopsis.
http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.ca/2017/12/the-navys-strategic-readiness-review.html

I suggest our Naval Leadership have a close read of this document. In light of the problems at 7th Fleet, this document destroys all the arguments that the Transforamtionalists used to further their agenda of the last 20 years. It's a very sobering read.

SeaKingTacco said:
Wow. You could pretty much word replace "USN" with "CAF" in this document and you would still be bang on.

Baz said:
You could also replace it with other words (just from my experience or "research"):
- "RCN"
- "NATO"
- "RN"
- "14 Wing"
- or the final one, which you and I take personally, "12 Wing"
- and I'm sure there are more.

Some of us are quite worried that the arrival of the Cyclone will be seen as end to the MH problems in Canada, and it's time to get them to sea and use their capabilities, and the underlying problems (not all of which are a result of the procurement issues) will not be solved until it is too late...
https://army.ca/forums/threads/64037/post-1513880.html#msg1513880


I have no doubt (shaped by my past experience) that there are those in the Navy that feel exactly that way... there are hangars on there, so we need an Air Det.  Of course it can be done, but the timing is less than perfect, to say the least.

The last flight of a Sea King on the East Coast has been reported as this month... the retirement is on the West Coast at the end of this year (http://skr18.ca/, which I know for a fact SeaKingTacco is well aware of :-)  They are trying to get Cyclone IOC by this summer and the first CPF HelAirDets out the door.  Some of the same people who are doing that would also have to be pulled aside to do Asterix SHOL.

On top of that, where would the det come from?  Shearwater is authorized for 15 det equivalents in 11 dets (the "280" and tanker dets being larger); however, some of those very line numbers have been used up meeting needs of the center (the biggest example being the never ending expanding empire of ADM(IM)), so the plan will have to be reworked at some point.  In the '90s we could comfortable field 11 dets (5 steamer/CPF, 1 280, 1 tanker on the east coast plus 1 280, 1 tanker, and 2 CPF/steamer west); when I left we were hovering just below 6, plus the training squadron and HOTEF were not as robustly manned (12 AMS had to stay largish just to keep putting Sea Kings through 2nd line so it didn't all collapse).  So to create a Asterix (or AOPS) det would necessarily mean less CPF dets, or something else like training would have to give.

The navy didn't seem to understand that they had a role to play in this.  A core part of generating MH aircrew and techs is Sea Time, yet there always seemed to be a background fight along the lines of "we need dets for deployments... we can't afford to send ships to sea for Air training..."  It was sort of a macro version of "the SOA won't allow time for helo deck evs because we need time for engineering delaying drills; why can't you Air guys understand training is important!"

The worst case, and this leads directly back to the USN Strategic Readiness Review, is that sometime this year some type of op (humanitarian perhaps?) comes up, and the brain trust convinces themselves that the risk is manageable to "stick a couple of helos on there" even though the trials, approvals, documentation, and (in my mind, most importantly) readiness isn't done...


On a different note, I notice that in the article FSS talks about workshops, etc for the air dept.  I wonder if those are the same type as on the CPF, or more like the old tankers?  If the latter there seems to be another disconnect.  Back when we truly had a Canadian Task Group the tanker did 2nd line maintenance at sea for the helos, hence all the workshops.  There was a time when they actually sailed with a two shift 2nd line maintenance crew plus a small section of techs for 1st line (ie flying ops); they also only had 1 and a half crews (so you had a crew plus an LSO and a little bit of flexibility).  The maintenance concept was the other ships would only do first line and small sup checks.  If your helo broke or needed a large sup you'd swap it with the tanker, who had three of them.  They would fix it and then had a maintenance test flight to get it airborne again.  It meant the steamers could sustain 12 hour deck cycles longer.  The 280s also were plused up and had two shifts to support the 2 helos as well, so they could sustain 18 hours a day in a 12 hour block... all of this with the goal of the task group keeping 2 in the screen continuously.  The reason I bring it up is because if someone recreated the old tanker aviation spaces (which haven't been used that way in over 25 years) it's interesting because the Cyclone maintenance concept isn't set up to support that.


 
Baz said:
What I find interesting is the juxtaposition of this discussion with:
https://army.ca/forums/threads/64037/post-1513880.html#msg1513880


I have no doubt (shaped by my past experience) that there are those in the Navy that feel exactly that way... there are hangars on there, so we need an Air Det.  Of course it can be done, but the timing is less than perfect, to say the least.

The last flight of a Sea King on the East Coast has been reported as this month... the retirement is on the West Coast at the end of this year (http://skr18.ca/, which I know for a fact SeaKingTacco is well aware of :-)  They are trying to get Cyclone IOC by this summer and the first CPF HelAirDets out the door.  Some of the same people who are doing that would also have to be pulled aside to do Asterix SHOL.

On top of that, where would the det come from?  Shearwater is authorized for 15 det equivalents in 11 dets (the "280" and tanker dets being larger); however, some of those very line numbers have been used up meeting needs of the center (the biggest example being the never ending expanding empire of ADM(IM)), so the plan will have to be reworked at some point.  In the '90s we could comfortable field 11 dets (5 steamer/CPF, 1 280, 1 tanker on the east coast plus 1 280, 1 tanker, and 2 CPF/steamer west); when I left we were hovering just below 6, plus the training squadron and HOTEF were not as robustly manned (12 AMS had to stay largish just to keep putting Sea Kings through 2nd line so it didn't all collapse).  So to create a Asterix (or AOPS) det would necessarily mean less CPF dets, or something else like training would have to give.

The navy didn't seem to understand that they had a role to play in this.  A core part of generating MH aircrew and techs is Sea Time, yet there always seemed to be a background fight along the lines of "we need dets for deployments... we can't afford to send ships to sea for Air training..."  It was sort of a macro version of "the SOA won't allow time for helo deck evs because we need time for engineering delaying drills; why can't you Air guys understand training is important!"

The worst case, and this leads directly back to the USN Strategic Readiness Review, is that sometime this year some type of op (humanitarian perhaps?) comes up, and the brain trust convinces themselves that the risk is manageable to "stick a couple of helos on there" even though the trials, approvals, documentation, and (in my mind, most importantly) readiness isn't done...


On a different note, I notice that in the article FSS talks about workshops, etc for the air dept.  I wonder if those are the same type as on the CPF, or more like the old tankers?  If the latter there seems to be another disconnect.  Back when we truly had a Canadian Task Group the tanker did 2nd line maintenance at sea for the helos, hence all the workshops.  There was a time when they actually sailed with a two shift 2nd line maintenance crew plus a small section of techs for 1st line (ie flying ops); they also only had 1 and a half crews (so you had a crew plus an LSO and a little bit of flexibility).  The maintenance concept was the other ships would only do first line and small sup checks.  If your helo broke or needed a large sup you'd swap it with the tanker, who had three of them.  They would fix it and then had a maintenance test flight to get it airborne again.  It meant the steamers could sustain 12 hour deck cycles longer.  The 280s also were plused up and had two shifts to support the 2 helos as well, so they could sustain 18 hours a day in a 12 hour block... all of this with the goal of the task group keeping 2 in the screen continuously.  The reason I bring it up is because if someone recreated the old tanker aviation spaces (which haven't been used that way in over 25 years) it's interesting because the Cyclone maintenance concept isn't set up to support that.

Baz, as always your posts are very informative!  Permission to insert a straw in to your brain?
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
Baz, as always your posts are very informative!  Permission to insert a straw in to your brain?

It's the same story... the young guys think quicker and can be more adaptive, older guys have seen more things.  In a perfect world we would balance those two things.

I'm pretty sure that whatever came out of that straw would look like a 7-11 slushy!
 
Baz said:
The navy didn't seem to understand that they had a role to play in this.  A core part of generating MH aircrew and techs is Sea Time, yet there always seemed to be a background fight along the lines of "we need dets for deployments... we can't afford to send ships to sea for Air training..."  It was sort of a macro version of "the SOA won't allow time for helo deck evs because we need time for engineering delaying drills; why can't you Air guys understand training is important!"

I think this is a peculiar Canadian problems.

The Australians understand the need for air training at sea. That is why they recently acquired the M/V Sycamore as a fleet auxiliary to do principally air training.

http://www.damen.com/en/news/2017/04/successful_sea_trials_for_australian_matv

The RN does the same thing with the RFA Argus.

In my mind, the problems of understanding the needs for air training in the RCN started when they lost their air service as a result of unification. The further we got from the Navy having an air arm, the more people with connection to the old one retired, and as result the less knowledge of what is involved in air ops existed in maritime headquarters. Nowadays, that knowledge is almost nil.

This could be remedied in different ways: One of them is re-incorporating the MH world into the Navy (RCAF will never let that happen, so there would have to be an important political will to do so). On the other hand, it could be sufficient to do two things: Let air det pilots spend time on the bridge and acquire their BWK and stand some watches, then, after their tour as Air det commander, they would be allowed, if they wish, to go on the Combat officer course and become Combat officers, then X.O.'s and finally CO and so forth. They would have to OT to NWO at the Lcdr level, but it could be made into a form of career progression that would be seamless.
 
OGBD,

Couldn't concur more... and so as to not seem one sided, I spent at least the last 7-9 years in the military banging my head on the lack of maritime, and in particular maritime warfare, skills in MH; I'm convinced that banging did nothing but leave me with a headache...
 
Baz said:
OGBD,

Couldn't concur more... and so as to not seem one sided, I spent at least the last 7-9 years in the military banging my head on the lack of maritime, and in particular maritime warfare, skills in MH; I'm convinced that banging did nothing but leave me with a headache...

It hasn't gotten any better since you left, Baz.

I have long advocated that select TACCOs and pilots should attend the ORO course, much like some Tac Hel Pilots go to Kingston. I am also coming to the opinion that a pilot, Tacco and AESOp should be posted to CFNOS (or, whatever it is called this week by the RCN) while an Above water warfare director, and underwater water warfare director and a SAC (I am agnostic about which of these should be NWOs or NCMs) should be posted to 406 Sqn. It would cost neither RCN nor the RCAF anything and may help prevent some of the procedures/doctrine divergence I am seeing daily.
 
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