Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Eye In The Sky]

You're talking more and more like a Storesman every day



One point of clarity an HPR is not an HPR without an OPDEF for the RCN side of the house. The engineering side creates the OPDEF, its brought to the Storesmen who then start the ball rolling on the material management. That's if every thing goes as planned and the engineers aren't trying to back door anything. The OPDEF is the instigation for the whole process.

@Eye In The Sky much like an AOG (Aircraft On Ground) message for you guys. It spools up priority shipping and duty people (if after hours) to get the part picked packed and shipped most riki tik.

Ack thanks!

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

@Halifax Tar explained it, but it seems like there were a number of items put on the ISSC that only kicks in for in-service, and also not on the CFM list, but some bright light decided that we would buy (so it's not on the project costs) or supply (but didn't tell the LCMMs). Some things we happen to have a lot of it in stock, but others we were already short on it for the inservice fleet, so don't suddenly have an entire ship set worth lying around.

Aside from some common to fleet fire fighting/DC equipment, it was a lot of common things like plates, cutlery etc. Doesn't sound exciting, but because of the sheer volume of it it's a lot, and not something the base log side is set up to do the buys for. And some of it kicked past the dollar amount the coast has delegation for, so had to get pushed up the chain.

Additional complications are that we had been told 5 years ago to assume the MCDVs would be retiring in our planning, so there is some common fleet equipment that we don't have for the AOPs because it's still in use on the MCDVs with no end in sight.

On the sparing side they seem to be providing the absolute bare minimum with initial provisioning and pretty minimal insurance items (ie long lead items that if they break, you are foxed, like spare gearing). JSS is doing the same, and didn't even want to get spare relief valves and other similar items because the LSAR said they were unlikely to fail in 6 months. They completely ignored any input that we had for things getting broken during STW or initial operation, and when we will pay huge amounts for the sea trials, they could be down for extended periods due to lack of a $10 part (that the class will need within a year or two anyway).

This literally cracks me up now that I'm no longer in the CAF. Especially when it's something like a Ship that basically requires constant maintenance to keep it running.

I'm only starting to realize how bad things are in the CAF WRT preventative and routine maintenance now that I am out.

It's extremely bad for what should be very simple items as well, like gaskets, valves, etc.

In my current line of work, we are performing near constant maintenance on the equipment. We often have to redneck temp fix on the fly as well because time = money.

I carry a handful of spare gaskets in my utility vest at all times and we carry essential spare parts everywhere we go. Just the other day I had to do a field expedient hose change because we would have been dead in the water otherwise and lost revenues quickly start adding up.

It's good enough field maintenance to get us across the line at which point the experts takeover and do a real thorough job on a full repair. This is done constantly on our equipment and it is continuously monitored using the latest technology (heat sensors, load detectors, GPS, etc).


I contrast this with my last deployment where we ended up sailing for months without a PDE because we couldn't get a simple air hose delivered to us . Just think of how much money we wasted steaming around on only a Gas Turbine . That's some good taxpayer value right there.

 

[Halifax Tar]

This literally cracks me up now that I'm no longer in the CAF. Especially when it's something like a Ship that basically requires constant maintenance to keep it running.

I'm only starting to realize how bad things are in the CAF WRT preventative and routine maintenance now that I am out.

It's extremely bad for what should be very simple items as well, like gaskets, valves, etc.

In my current line of work, we are performing near constant maintenance on the equipment. We often have to redneck temp fix on the fly as well because time = money.

I carry a handful of spare gaskets in my utility vest at all times and we carry essential spare parts everywhere we go. Just the other day I had to do a field expedient hose change because we would have been dead in the water otherwise and lost revenues quickly start adding up.

It's good enough field maintenance to get us across the line at which point the experts takeover and do a real thorough job on a full repair. This is done constantly on our equipment and it is continuously monitored using the latest technology (heat sensors, load detectors, GPS, etc).


I contrast this with my last deployment where we ended up sailing for months without a PDE because we couldn't get a simple air hose delivered to us . Just think of how much money we wasted steaming around on only a Gas Turbine . That's some good taxpayer value right there.

Just a couple points. Your last deployment was during COVID right ?

Did you guys have the CAT diesel ?

I was involved in material support for your last deployment and there various factors complicating your supply chain most of which were diplomatic in nature.

Definitely not trying to put the CFSS in a better light, but if you were on the deployment I think you were, it was a disaster getting you parts because where you were + COVID + diplomatic relations = a mess.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Just a couple points. Your last deployment was during COVID right ?

Did you guys have the CAT diesel ?

I was involved in material support for your last deployment and there various factors complicating your supply chain most of which were diplomatic in nature.

Definitely not trying to put the CFSS in a better light, but if you were on the deployment I think you were, it was a disaster getting you parts because where you were + COVID + diplomatic relations = a mess.

CATs actually worked great. The PDE stopped working about 2 months in to the deployment and didn't work for the rest of the time. It was a bloody HP Air Hose , I have about 5 similar sized hoses sitting in my unit at work at any given time. We aren't talking about a complex piece of Military equipment here.

We had some difficulty getting parts but there were also deliberate choices made by the CAF.


Most of the customs issues were the CAFs own doing by choosing the "cheapest" possible solutions to problems.

Our Logisticians worked very hard but.... we suck a lot and our talk about being a Navy with "global projection" where we talk up our blue-water credentials makes me laugh.

We also could have brought a tanker, instead our rented tanker sat in Halifax doing exercises with the AOPS

 

[Halifax Tar]

CATs actually worked great. The PDE stopped working about 2 months in to the deployment and didn't work for the rest of the time. It was a bloody HP Air Hose , I have about 5 similar sized hoses sitting in my unit at work at any given time. We aren't talking about a complex piece of Military equipment here.

We had some difficulty getting parts but there were also deliberate choices made by the CAF. One was choosing to ship a very important part via DHL instead of using the dedicated grey tail in Kuwait to send us a part to a friendly airfield.

We then chased said part halfway around the World and got shaken down by our "valued partners" for some money when we finally got to where the part was.

This part was a mission critical piece of kit for our helicopter. When we finally got it, months later, it didn't work due to getting banged up in the travel.

Most of the customs issues were the CAFs own doing by choosing the "cheapest" possible solutions to problems.

Our Logisticians worked very hard but.... we suck a lot and our talk about being a Navy with "global projection" where we talk up our blue-water credentials makes me laugh.

We also could have brought a tanker, instead our rented tanker sat in Halifax doing exercises with the AOPS

I laughed when we were begging the Americans for a RAS in the Indian Ocean while the RCN was using our one Tanker to refill AOPS 30 miles off the Coast of Halifax....

What a joke!

I can't speak to the employment methods of Asterix.

But ya your deployment's material support was a mess. At one point something like 15 to 20 pallets were being held hostage by a "country" in south East Asia.

The other problem is the way our ships are fitted out for spares. It's supposed to be a living document. But it's almost never actioned. I can give you many first hand examples of this being poorly management.

Things like hose and gasket material should be plentiful. If not the specific hoses and gaskets themselves.

Logistics is great, it's THE war winner IMHO, and we have some great people. But if the parts/materials don't exist to move or issue they are powerless.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

At the Hovercraft base, we had the "Skirt shop" (Inserts jokes about rubber and skirts here) When there was a bit of down time a couple of the engineers went in and using patterns, made up new skirt components, mostly the wearable fingers. When working on the bigger components, we would all pitch in during any lulls between calls. We had people from around the world begging us to sell them skirt bits as we were the only ones outside of BHC that made skirt components. We also made all the gaskets for manholes, etc. I note at the Shipyard they have a dedicated space for making gaskets for manholes, inspection ports, etc and a specialised gasket maker company for making complex gaskets (apparently one of the ex-employees who got really good at it). I would hope that the RCN does similar stuff and keeps rolls of the more common gasket material for making their own on site?

 

[childs56]

CATs actually worked great. The PDE stopped working about 2 months in to the deployment and didn't work for the rest of the time. It was a bloody HP Air Hose , I have about 5 similar sized hoses sitting in my unit at work at any given time. We aren't talking about a complex piece of Military equipment here.

We had some difficulty getting parts but there were also deliberate choices made by the CAF.


Most of the customs issues were the CAFs own doing by choosing the "cheapest" possible solutions to problems.

Our Logisticians worked very hard but.... we suck a lot and our talk about being a Navy with "global projection" where we talk up our blue-water credentials makes me laugh.

We also could have brought a tanker, instead our rented tanker sat in Halifax doing exercises with the AOPS

Not on the same level But my MLVW blew a air line on exercise, the Maintainers did not have a hose to fix it. Their solution was to low bed it home at a cost of $1200. I bought a locally sourced hose from the parts store for under $50 and had the truck up and running in no time.
Where I use to work, we had a hose machine, darn near every fitting size/ type you could even need and the local area Farmers could ever need of hose and fittings.
Yet the Military choose to do things the hard way every time.

 

[Furniture]

Not on the same level But my MLVW blew a air line on exercise, the Maintainers did not have a hose to fix it. Their solution was to low bed it home at a cost of $1200. I bought a locally sourced hose from the parts store for under $50 and had the truck up and running in no time.
Where I use to work, we had a hose machine, darn near every fitting size/ type you could even need and the local area Farmers could ever need of hose and fittings.
Yet the Military choose to do things the hard way every time.

It's more that the CAF takes the easy way every time.

It's easier to lowbed a MLVW than to train all of your drivers and mechanics to do more than part swap with approved parts. Making hoses and gaskets would require training mechanics to use the machines, ordering hoses and gaskets requires MMTs to do a core part of their job.

It's a bad way to run, but it's easy.

 

[Dana381]

Not on the same level But my MLVW blew a air line on exercise, the Maintainers did not have a hose to fix it. Their solution was to low bed it home at a cost of $1200. I bought a locally sourced hose from the parts store for under $50 and had the truck up and running in no time.
Where I use to work, we had a hose machine, darn near every fitting size/ type you could even need and the local area Farmers could ever need of hose and fittings.
Yet the Military choose to do things the hard way every time.

The average truck driver does not know what hoses are rated for what systems. If a driver uses fuel line in the air brake system it could cause a brake failure. Same thing if a nylon air brake line is used where a rubber one is needed.
Towing the vehicle to a properly trained mechanic is a way to ensure it is repaired properly. It would have been cheaper to send a mechanic to the truck but that may not be an option.

 

[Navy_Pete]

CATs actually worked great. The PDE stopped working about 2 months in to the deployment and didn't work for the rest of the time. It was a bloody HP Air Hose , I have about 5 similar sized hoses sitting in my unit at work at any given time. We aren't talking about a complex piece of Military equipment here.

We had some difficulty getting parts but there were also deliberate choices made by the CAF.


Most of the customs issues were the CAFs own doing by choosing the "cheapest" possible solutions to problems.

Our Logisticians worked very hard but.... we suck a lot and our talk about being a Navy with "global projection" where we talk up our blue-water credentials makes me laugh.

We also could have brought a tanker, instead our rented tanker sat in Halifax doing exercises with the AOPS

The way we do hoses and some other things is just stupid; condition based assessment only makes sense if it saves money/time. Usually takes more time to actually inspect/test the hoses then just replace them, but I'm sure there are a lot of original hoses on systems that have never been changed unless they broke. Tried to get a contractor in with a mobile hose fab to just go around and replace flex hoses on some systems but the coasts wanted to do a survey first.

Or sometimes for the long lead hoses they will get tested at the 11th hour, fail, and then cause unecessary churn when the system is being reactivated after being down for 2 years during DWP. And then surprised pikachu faces when you can't just substitute carbon steel for a stainless steel fitting on a fire suppression system.

Similarly a lot of the PM we are skipping includes basic things like swapping out o-rings and other soft goods while doing general component checks and grease routines; pretty simple stuff but avoids major failures down the roads.

Not the ship's fault at all though; this is entirely on the RCN for trying to run the ships with skeleton crews and having a fleet sched that doesn't allow time alongside for catchup. We genuinely have about twice as many operational ships as we can really support properly.

 

[FSTO]

^^
Can we not have the capability of making those types of hoses onboard? I seem to recall back in the day the machine shop onboard was able to fabricate damn near anything!

Remember MARS type talking here. So the engineering voodoo is beyond my comprehension.

 

[lenaitch]

The average truck driver does not know what hoses are rated for what systems. If a driver uses fuel line in the air brake system it could cause a brake failure. Same thing if a nylon air brake line is used where a rubber one is needed.
Towing the vehicle to a properly trained mechanic is a way to ensure it is repaired properly. It would have been cheaper to send a mechanic to the truck but that may not be an option.

OK, so what is the plan when you are in the field, for real? Isn't the mantra 'train the way you fight'?

 

[Halifax Tar]

^^
Can we not have the capability of making those types of hoses onboard? I seem to recall back in the day the machine shop onboard was able to fabricate damn near anything!

Remember MARS type talking here. So the engineering voodoo is beyond my comprehension.

It can be done onboard. But having the right material is the first step.

 

[childs56]

The average truck driver does not know what hoses are rated for what systems. If a driver uses fuel line in the air brake system it could cause a brake failure. Same thing if a nylon air brake line is used where a rubber one is needed.
Towing the vehicle to a properly trained mechanic is a way to ensure it is repaired properly. It would have been cheaper to send a mechanic to the truck but that may not be an option.

LOL, I know lots of Truck Drivers Civie side who have a full repair shop in their sleeper cabs.
Air lines are air lines. nothing special about them. A nylon line can usually be substituted for a nylon and vice versa as long as you have a cross over to do so.
Most truck shops sell Airbrake repair kits with different size fittings ferrules etc. You can buy all the airline, all the sizes you need.

LOL most fuel line used on large trucks are rated for 150-200psi and would suffice for a field fix to get back to the shop. The fittings are usually different size/ threads.
I see where your coming from disagree.

The Mechanic did come to the Vehicle and said they could not repair the hose.

 

[Dana381]

LOL, I know lots of Truck Drivers Civie side who have a full repair shop in their sleeper cabs.
Air lines are air lines. nothing special about them. A nylon line can usually be substituted for a nylon and vice versa as long as you have a cross over to do so.
Most truck shops sell Airbrake repair kits with different size fittings ferrules etc. You can buy all the airline, all the sizes you need.

LOL most fuel line used on large trucks are rated for 150-200psi and would suffice for a field fix to get back to the shop. The fittings are usually different size/ threads.
I see where your coming from disagree.

The Mechanic did come to the Vehicle and said they could not repair the hose.

Your right there are some truck drivers who know what's what and can make repairs on the road. Most of them are owner operators. Most company drivers do not have that knowledge and their attempts can be scary.

I have seen some dooseys, We once told a driver to unplug the speed sensor on the back of his transmission to defeat the 5mph derate so he could get the truck to the shop. Rather than unplug the connector he used his pin puller to rip the wires out. The wires broke inside the wrap 3 feet further up as well as at the connector. It was a difficult break to find. Cost his boss an extra couple hours labour.

The mechanic was unprepared then, I would not go out to a call for a blown air line without taking the stuff to fix it. I carry rubber and nylon line on my truck and all the needed fittings.

Most fuel line on large trucks is either nylon brake line or 1 wire hydraulic hose, very adequate for air brake service. I was envisioning an unknowing driver going to a Canadian tire and grabbing 60 psi fuel line and a couple barb fittings.

Rubber air brake lines are used where flexibility is needed. They are between the frame and axles to flex with suspension travel and steering angles. Using nylon in these places can cause kinking and breakage from repeated bending. I have seen it done without issue but it's not a good idea.

 

[lenaitch]

owner operators

A dying breed in an era of leased tractor fleets driven by operators hired from a driver pool company. An o/o had a vested interest and a need to keep costs down. Now, many fleet drivers don't know and don't care.

 

[Navy_Pete]

^^
Can we not have the capability of making those types of hoses onboard? I seem to recall back in the day the machine shop onboard was able to fabricate damn near anything!

Remember MARS type talking here. So the engineering voodoo is beyond my comprehension.

Most of the important ones are high pressure hoses so need specialized equipment to fabricate them, but generally the FMFs or local contractors can do it. When deployed, can generally also be done with suitable substitutions for the specific hoses to something that meets/exceeds the specs. Aside from the fabrication also has to be pressure tested so a few steps in the process.

There is a lead time for the fabrication/materials though, so waiting until the day before the system is being reactivated and a week out from the ship sailing doesn't give you that. Or throwing out the old hoses instead of keeping them to use as templates to fabricate the new ones also doesn't help, as they need to be the right length so you don't have too much hose (can flop around and get damaged/damage other gear) or not enough (need a minimum bend radius to avoid kinks/failures).

Lot of lower pressure hoses as well; some of them are similar to garden hoses or just held on with a ratcheting steel band so you can easily replace those on your own. The idea to get a contractor to do those ones was more for HR, as it's an easy thing to sub out and lot more important things SS can do with limited time.

 

[NavyShooter]

On the returns side, we see on a regular basis valve bodies that have had the stem/head replaced, but the old body has been left in situ.

Obviously they think it's harder to swap out the whole valve body (4 bolts on each flange = 8 bolts) since the head of the valve only has 4 bolts.

I've lost count of how many times we've seen this happen.

Or, seeing a valve swapped out because it's 'leaking by' - indicating that they don't know how to replace the gasket.

 

[Halifax Tar]

On the returns side, we see on a regular basis valve bodies that have had the stem/head replaced, but the old body has been left in situ.

Obviously they think it's harder to swap out the whole valve body (4 bolts on each flange = 8 bolts) since the head of the valve only has 4 bolts.

I've lost count of how many times we've seen this happen.

Or, seeing a valve swapped out because it's 'leaking by' - indicating that they don't know how to replace the gasket.

Ugh returns.

So many of our issues could be helped if we all just did it right.

 

[NavyShooter]

I worked real hard to get things to be "one and done". Unfortunately, that requires people to do things right in the fleet, or giving the power to BLog to fix the ship's errors - meaning a different level of DRMIS access pushed to a lower level - we're trying some of that now.