Armoured Recce Vehicle

[Reccesoldier]

What ever happened to low profile? Surely we aught to be able to find a vehicle that isn't shoulder high at the nose.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Puma is 1.678m to the top of the hull, 1.900m to the top of the CC's cupola, 2.090m wide and in it 4x4 version (which carries a crew of 2+4) 5.108m long.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/puma/

By comparison the LAV is 2.8m high, 2.7m wide and 6.98m long.
The RG-31 APV is 2.63m high, 2.47m wide and 6.40m long.
The G-Wagen is 2.005m high, 1.7m wide and 4.165m long.
According to the Army Equipment site.

The only way you are going to get something lower than the Puma, is to take the roof off the G-Wagen and sit in the breeze as in the Iltis or in vehicles like the Jeep, Landrover or Pinzgauer, or even the Bv206, with their tops down.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Sorry Kirkhill, I was refering to the Iguana, not the Puma.  Got to be more specific when I post and Run.  ;D

 

[Kirkhill]

No worries Reccesoldier. 

Maybe the info will help the conversation anyway.

Cheers.

 

[a_majoor]

The ULTRA AP (Armored Patrol) Military Combat Vehicle Concept is a technology test bed, which has many features that might make for a next generation recce vehicle. The "all around" seating is very interesting, and the idea that it can carry a four man crew means you have the option of throwing out a patrolman when needed.

This is certainly not a "Ferret" replacement, it is a bit bigger than a HMMVW, but the principles behind it's construction, perhaps combined with a hybrid electric drive would make for a useful and versatile vehicle.

http://www.gizmag.com/go/5484/2/

ULTRA AP (Armored Patrol) Military Combat Vehicle Concept

April 9, 2006 The ULTRA AP (Armored Patrol) Concept vehicle was created to investigate options for improving survivability and mobility in future military combat vehicles. On the mobility side of things, the designers naturally looked to high-output diesel power (the military has a one fuel policy) but also looked to high-performance automotive engineering practices by adding NASCAR race expertise to the team, along with the use of on-board computers to integrate steering, suspension and brakes. The protective aspects were enhanced by an innovative crew capsule created by a combination of lightweight composite armour materials, a commercial truck chassis, and faceted crew capsule geometries that provide better deflection of pressure waves from blasts compared to current configurations.

Designed by the Georgia Tech Research Institute and funded by the Office of Naval Research, the ULTRA is slightly larger than the HMMWV and is diesel powered.

“By bringing together experienced commercial vehicle designers with experts in advanced materials and cutting-edge engineering, we are providing a test bed for evaluating technologies that can help the military develop true ‘leap-ahead’ concepts,” said David Parekh, GTRI’s deputy director.

“By including persons with high-performance automotive engineering and NASCAR expertise as part of our team, we were able to root this advanced concepts project in real-world vehicle design.”

The ULTRA AP emphasizes high-output diesel power combined with advanced armor and a fully modern chassis. The design matches the best of modern commercial automotive technology with racing experience, explained Gary Caille, a GTRI principal research engineer.

Survivability: This factor involves a vehicle’s ability to shield occupants from hostile action. The ULTRA AP will feature novel design concepts and research advances in lightweight and cost-effective armor to maximize capability and protection. The new armor was designed at GTRI in partnership with the Georgia Tech School of Materials Science and Engineering. The vehicle also incorporates a “blast bucket” designed to provide ballistic, blast and enhanced roll-over protection. New vehicle designs must incorporate dramatically increased resistance to explosions caused by mines and improvised explosive devices, Caille noted.

The ULTRA design explored the use of on-board computers to integrate steering, suspension and brakes to provide an unparalleled level of mobility and safety, Caille added. The new vehicle’s integrated chassis represents an advancement over the most advanced current production vehicles.

The ULTRA concept vehicle features an innovative survivable crew capsule that would utilize a new combination of armor materials, a commercial truck chassis, and faceted crew capsule geometries that would provide better deflection of pressure waves from blasts compared to current configurations.

By providing the ULTRA AP concept vehicle for the U.S. Marine Corps and U.S. Army to study, ONR expects to spur innovative thinking and gather feedback on the ideas being demonstrated.

In developing the ULTRA AP, GTRI brought together a group of industry professionals that included Scott Badenoch, an auto industry advanced development and racing professional; Tom Moore, former Chrysler vice president of Liberty Operations, the company’s advanced engineering center; Walt Wynbelt, former program executive officer with the U.S. Army Tank Automotive and Armaments Command, and Dave McLellan, the former Corvette chief engineer for General Motors.

The ULTRA project is linked directly to “e-safety,” an emerging automotive concept that combines computers and advanced technologies to make driving safer, McLellan noted. In e-safety, night driving systems and stability control add security, while radar systems – already available in Europe – actually slow vehicles automatically under certain conditions.

 

[McG]

If small is the objective, there is a fancy Ferret upgrade out there.  ;D

 

[Kirkhill]

Pretty sure I recognize the baseline vehicle. 

 

[a_majoor]

While thumbing through an old magazine about off roading, I came across something which "may" satisfy most of our customers. The illustration was of a 4X4 "rock climber", which is a specialized competition for off roaders.

The vehicle was custom built, had a roughly diamond shaprd body, wheels exposed (with very long suspension travel) and 4 wheel steering.

In a militarized version, there would be the following advantages:

Relatively small (about SUV size, based on the people around it)
The exposed wheels give some crew protection against mines and pressue plated IED's (blast is not trapped by the vehicle)
4 wheel steering gets you in and out of tight spots
Open top gives good crew SA
Roll cage can be used to support pintle mounts for weapons of some sort of sensor system (Thermal imager, LLTV or ground radar)
"Uparmour" version is possible (bolting armour sections on roll cage and internal frame members).

If I can find an illustration I will post it, but this seems to be a super "rat patrol" type vehicle for mud recce, and perhaps "Mad Max" type convoy escorts.

 

[George Wallace]

I may have seen that program.  I do wonder on the matter of an all wheel steering 4X4.  It may be a very maintenance heavy proposition.  Complicated suspension systems tend to be more prone to breakdown than simpler systems. 

I do see this type of steering giving the vehicle a similar capability to that of a Tracked vehicle in some situations.  It was too easy with Tracks to slide into a treeline for a few minutes on the Advance, or a Recce.  A manoeuvre that took only seconds to perform.  ("Hard Right, Hard Left. Stop")

 

[a_majoor]

From what I could see of the suspension (admittedly very little), it was very much like the independent suspension of a regular car or truck, with much bigger springs and shock absorbers to provide long suspension travel. Having no fenders means fewer limitations to how far you can have the wheel move.

Four wheel steering may or may not be what we want, although in a "Mud Recce" vehicle the advantages might outweigh any extra maintainence load.

At any rate, this moves the thread in a different direction from post Coyote AFV's and surveillance platforms. If someone is quick, this idea might get some traction in the "LARV" program rather than another armouored SUV.

 

[guns_and_roses]

I think that the Fennek, Or if you want firepower use the MGS design.

 

[Franko]

I think that the Fennek, Or if you want firepower use the MGS design.

Fennek is a good vehicle and has many advantages.

I take it that you haven't even seen the MGS or read the inherent problems with the POS?

Regards

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think that the Fennek, Or if you want firepower use the MGS design.

I'm going to ask you again. Are you even in the military?

If not (or even, if so) what are you basing all these wild opinions, your planting all over the board, on? Your credibility is soon going to start suffering, some more. You were warned when you got here. Better go re-read the guidelines.

 

[geo]

RBD  while most Cdn troopers will share that opinion of the MGS, I haven't heard the US saying negative things about the beast since they have fielded them in Iraq.  Based on the Stryker, the US Army appears to rave about the vehicle.

 

[McG]

At any rate, this moves the thread in a different direction from post Coyote AFV's and surveillance platforms. If someone is quick, this idea might get some traction in the "LARV" program rather than another armouored SUV.

That  would be the FFCV light recce & light manouvre vehicles (possibly the US JTLV).
The two platforms (or possibly single common platform) will replace Coyote, RG-31 and G-Wagon (and possibly others).

 

[blacktriangle]

That  would be the FFCV light recce & light manouvre vehicles (possibly the US JTLV).
The two platforms (or possibly single common platform) will replace Coyote, RG-31 and G-Wagon (and possibly others).

I'm in an res armd unit, and also have heard rumours of Fennek. Is it unlikely Fennek will be purchased for the CF? Furthermore, what is the rough time frame for the FFCV light vehicles?

Thanks in advance-

 

[McG]

Off the top of my head, I don't recall.  Army COS Strat has a few relevant files on its DWAN site if you have time to surf next time your at the unit.

 

[Rayman]

Just a question to the veteran armoured and reconnaissance guys out there would the Coyote make a better "sentry" per say then an actual recce vehicle? Like would you say that posting it at a position and using it to be a gaurd for say a camp or position would be better than using it for a spy vehicle? Or should it be on its way out....or at least be transformed into a LAV III type vehicle just used for its turret and such?

 

[George Wallace]

OK.  It really doesn't help this topic when so many posters are speculating on a Armour Recce Vehicle's requirements, and they have never done Armoured Recce, nor understand what Armoured Recce is all about.  There is no need to bring 120mm guns and MGS into this discussion.  Tanks and MGS have been discussed in detail in their own topics, and there is no need to derail this topic with speculation on other matters.

I would also like to point out that the Coyote is a poor Recce Vehicle, but an excellent Surveillance Vehicle and much in demand by the CF and Allied Forces.  It is an excellent tool in a Recce Comd's toolbox.  What Recce Comds need now is an excellent Recce Vehicle to fill the majority of that tool box. 

Please don't mistake a police vehicle as pictured above, in camouflage military paint schemes, as a suitable Armoured Recce Vehicle.

 

[McG]

Please don't mistake a police vehicle as pictured above, in camouflage military paint schemes, as a suitable Armoured Recce Vehicle.

While I've not confused that vehicle as a suitable recce vehicle, it is a military vehicle.  It is the Ferret (though significantly modified by Jordan).