Army Reserve Restructuring

[markppcli]

That's what parkas are for.

I’m sure the candidates will pay rapt attention while they shiver in classrooms.

Need computers? Why? Didn't need them before ohhhh sometime around 2000. Go back to lectures and handouts.

Because that’s how the army does all its reporting, stores those hand outs, and publishes relevant documents. Unless you want instructors with no access to updated copies of things like training safety, and no means to administer their candidates.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I’m sure the candidates will pay rapt attention while they shiver in classrooms.



Because that’s how the army does all its reporting, stores those hand outs, and publishes relevant documents. Unless you want instructors with no access to updated copies of things like training safety, and no means to administer their candidates.

In Britain, with traditionally crappy heating, the Wooly Pully sufficed.

Try that in a Canadian winter and you’d have casualties, I’m guessing

 

[CountDC]

I’m sure the candidates will pay rapt attention while they shiver in classrooms.



Because that’s how the army does all its reporting, stores those hand outs, and publishes relevant documents. Unless you want instructors with no access to updated copies of things like training safety, and no means to administer their candidates.

We did, kept us awake, wasn't uncommon for the heat not to be working plus some training does happen outside regardless of the weather.

Key there is does - for about 25 , 30 years. All the years prior we did the funny thing of having paper files, updats issued on paper (how horrible!), did paper administration, kept pers files, we even did pay on paper and here is a real shock - we actually learned how to calculate the pay using math - adding, subtracting, multiplying, deducting taxes, CPP, EI, Mess dues, etc. We even paid members bills for them back then. Whole bunch of other trades operated with out computers too. I attended several courses without computers and instructed on one without a computer. Actually learned more on the courses without computers as the instructors were more engaged with us.

Computers have been a double edged sword. In some ways they have made things worse. Ever been down the rabbit hole of trying to find a regulation or policy that has been cancelled? At least with paper we were able to keep copies of the cancelled ones, now you go online and end up in the "CFAO XXXX replaced in CANFORGEN XXXX which was cancelled in CANFORGEN XXXX". They also have had the undesired side affect that everyone thinks we are all sitting around twiddling our thumbs just waiting for them to send us an email request so we can have something to do and then not understand why they don't get an immediate answer while we are busy answering the other 100 emails. Go on leave, put out of office on stating dates and come back to 10 plus emails from the same person asking the same thing.

Yes computers are here to stay and absolutely have their benefits, I was an early supporter of them at work (started using computers in the 70s, punch cards, dumb terminals, vics/commodores, pet, superpets, etc). But - we could function if needed, especially in the basic training field, without them.

 

[markppcli]

We did, kept us awake, wasn't uncommon for the heat not to be working plus some training does happen outside regardless of the weather.

Yes well I think if we’re talking about winterizing buildings it’s implied the affected training is happening in the buildings. There’s an enormous difference between the heat going out and a building not being winterized - ie lacking insulation.

Key there is does - for about 25 , 30 years. All the years prior we did the funny thing of having paper files, updats issued on paper (how horrible!), did paper administration, kept pers files, we even did pay on paper and here is a real shock - we actually learned how to calculate the pay using math - adding, subtracting, multiplying, deducting taxes, CPP, EI, Mess dues, etc. We even paid members bills for them back then. Whole bunch of other trades operated with out computers too. I attended several courses without computers and instructed on one without a computer. Actually learned more on the courses without computers as the instructors were more engaged with us.

Great that’s was 30 plus years ago. This is now. Our pay is computerized, we receive pay direct to our bank accounts, and our pay stubs are emailed out. That also applies to leave, and literally every other aspect of personal administration. You’re suggesting not modernizing a building as it’s too much work so we’ll have to develop a bespoke administrative system for this establishment. Brilliant.

Computers have been a double edged sword. In some ways they have made things worse. Ever been down the rabbit hole of trying to find a regulation or policy that has been cancelled? At least with paper we were able to keep copies of the cancelled ones, now you go online and end up in the "CFAO XXXX replaced in CANFORGEN XXXX which was cancelled in CANFORGEN XXXX". They also have had the undesired side affect that everyone thinks we are all sitting around twiddling our thumbs just waiting for them to send us an email request so we can have something to do and then not understand why they don't get an immediate answer while we are busy answering the other 100 emails. Go on leave, put out of office on stating dates and come back to 10 plus emails from the same person asking the same thing.

That’s why we have automated response on outlook.

Yes computers are here to stay and absolutely have their benefits, I was an early supporter of them at work (started using computers in the 70s, punch cards, dumb terminals, vics/commodores, pet, superpets, etc). But - we could function if needed, especially in the basic training field, without them.

Sure and for those recruits we sign up how are they going to respond to a 1940s building with no heat and being given hand outs and lessons from an overhead projector older than the high schools they attended? I’m sure that’s really going to set the tone well.

 

[Remius]

Yes computers are here to stay and absolutely have their benefits, I was an early supporter of them at work (started using computers in the 70s, punch cards, dumb terminals, vics/commodores, pet, superpets, etc). But - we could function if needed, especially in the basic training field, without them.

I can’t wait for the reserves to get computers.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I can’t wait for the reserves to get computers.

ARes-puter

 

[markppcli]

I can’t wait for the reserves to get computers.

Then you too can experience the joys of getting a platoon through 40 odd hours of DLN courses on three computers.

 

[dapaterson]

I can’t wait for the reserves to get computers.

Late 1990s computers showed up unannounced. Then it was announced that they needed to be connected to a new network. And that payroll would move from 11x17 three copy Reserve Attendance Data Transaction forms to a computer.

Phase one rollout was called "the interim reserve pay and personnel system" or IRPPS, and was less successful than the launch of the Phoenix pay system 20+ years later.

It was then rebranded as RPSR and is still (barely) in service today.

Much of the CAF's electronic records problems arise from business processes designed for paper being carried forward to computers, rather than reengineering the processes to make them more effective and efficient, and requiring unnecessary paper or pseudo paper forms.

TL;DR CAF needs to fix processes, not computers.

 

[FJAG]

Causes the staff need computer terminals and the class rooms do too?

That sounds reasonable but when I think about it I tend to go with the idea that a DP1 course should not have version for when you do not need for computers. It should be for no other reason then If we need to scale up and do national level mobilization you may need to turn out large numbers of personnel and infrastructure limitations should not get in the way of that. You should be able to run these courses out of tent cities with porta potties and water trailers if necessary.

ATCO trailers for the admin staff and sure - run in electricity and DWAN access for them.

If facilities are needed in the winter then get electrically heated construction accommodation trailers.

If we were organized enough to even have a mobilization plan, all of that would be in it, suppliers and contractors sourced and maybe even contracts in place for its on-call supply. But then again . . .

Please tell me why Montreal? Why not Wpg, the centre of Canada.

More importantly it would be collocated with the RCAF's HQs and therefore making coordination with air resources much easier.

Then position the new HQ in Shilo.

I always like the idea of an HQ really close to a civilian airport because of the staff travel involved. I've done the drive from Shilo/Brandon to Winnipeg hundreds of times and let me tell you that it's not a pleasant thing, especially in Winter.

 

[dapaterson]

That one RCAF HQ is in Winnipeg is no reason for collocation.

By that logic, since SAR is a shared responsibility, the CCG HQ should b in Winnipeg as well.

 

[markppcli]

That sounds reasonable but when I think about it I tend to go with the idea that a DP1 course should not have version for when you do not need for computers. It should be for no other reason then If we need to scale up and do national level mobilization you may need to turn out large numbers of personnel and infrastructure limitations should not get in the way of that. You should be able to run these courses out of tent cities with porta potties and water trailers if necessary.

ATCO trailers for the admin staff and sure - run in electricity and DWAN access for them.

If facilities are needed in the winter then get electrically heated construction accommodation trailers.

If we were organized enough to even have a mobilization plan, all of that would be in it, suppliers and contractors sourced and maybe even contracts in place for its on-call supply. But then again . . .


More importantly it would be collocated with the RCAF's HQs and therefore making coordination with air resources much easier.


I always like the idea of an HQ really close to a civilian airport because of the staff travel involved. I've done the drive from Shilo/Brandon to Winnipeg hundreds of times and let me tell you that it's not a pleasant thing, especially in Winter.

We use computers for every step of administration. Any upscaling of training in mobilization will a)be more efficient because of them and b) require a mass purchase of computers.

For example a candidate arrives at training centre their information is all stored in digital form - as opposed to filling this out. The course content is stored in a share drive which allows for very quick updating and dissemination of the syllabus. When that member is granted a qualification it’s updated automatically. This is all base line shit, the idea we’d try and process thousands of people with pens and paper, or somehow by finding type writers in basements, is frankly absurd.

 

[MilEME09]

I can’t wait for the reserves to get computers.

Can we start with PKI cards?

 

[Harris]

No idea but that's what the Bde G3 said....

Because that's where 2 Div HQ is?

 

[MilEME09]

Because that's where 2 Div HQ is?

And you'd want a bilingual hq any way

 

[daftandbarmy]

That one RCAF HQ is in Winnipeg is no reason for collocation.

By that logic, since SAR is a shared responsibility, the CCG HQ should b in Winnipeg as well.

Our Mountain Warfare school is hundreds of kms away from the mountains so at least we’re following the playbook.

 

[MilEME09]

Our Mountain Warfare school is hundreds of kms away from the mountains so at least we’re following the playbook.

Why is space command not in space dangit!!

 

[FJAG]

We use computers for every step of administration. Any upscaling of training in mobilization will a)be more efficient because of them and b) require a mass purchase of computers.

For example a candidate arrives at training centre their information is all stored in digital form - as opposed to filling this out. The course content is stored in a share drive which allows for very quick updating and dissemination of the syllabus. When that member is granted a qualification it’s updated automatically. This is all base line shit, the idea we’d try and process thousands of people with pens and paper, or somehow by finding type writers in basements, is frankly absurd.

You know, being told that something you didn't say is absurd is getting a bit old.

Reread my stuff. Where does it say that?

What I said is the army better figure out how to scale up beyond its current limited infrastructure because it may become necessary to run a lot of folks through in a hurry. I also said you can always throw in some ATCO trailers with electricity and DWAN access.

If you have some better ideas about how to create a high volume throughput in a hurry then let's hear them rather than throwing out crap about things that weren't suggested.

 

[markppcli]

That sounds reasonable but when I think about it I tend to go with the idea that a DP1 course should not have version for when you do not need for computers. It should be for no other reason then If we need to scale up and do national level mobilization you may need to turn out large numbers of personnel and infrastructure limitations should not get in the way of that. You should be able to run these courses out of tent cities with porta potties and water trailers if necessary.

Respectfully there’s where you said scale up without computers. I see now there’s some double negatives in there so I may have missed your intent. I took your comments in conjunction with the previous poster’s comments about how we don’t need to consider them because they didn’t exist 30 years ago.

 

[MilEME09]

I also said you can always throw in some ATCO trailers with electricity and DWAN access.

With DND wifi now a thing, it really wouldn't take much to set that all up. The big issue i see with DWAN is there isnt enough bandwidth. Take base maintenance Wx for example, they have more drops then bandwidth, so when units need to use the visiting unit bay and require drops, they gotta deactivate one some where else. IT woes of a modern army......

 

[FJAG]

Respectfully there’s where you said scale up without computers. I see now there’s some double negatives in there so I may have missed your intent. I took your comments in conjunction with the previous poster’s comments about how we don’t need to consider them because they didn’t exist 30 years ago.

That double negative shouldn't be there - my bad grammar.

When you mentioned the computer system in your next post, I agreed that was a factor and suggested the ATCO trailer solution for staff. Bu that's not the end of it.

I'm still very much of the view that the army needs to be capable of training recruits and basic DP1s in a resource denied environment. I'm not suggesting that we go back to a pencil and paper system, I'm just suggesting that being capable of training in an austere environment is something the army should be prepared to do and that includes the use of laptops and tablets that are capable of working offline and up and downloading intermittently when network access becomes available.

In an environment where electronic and cyber warfare is getting better and better we need to be very prepared to have key systems go down and be inaccessible until they are restored. And they may never be restored so you'll be left to work with what you've got loaded on offline resources . . . or . . . pencil and paper.

Canada doesn't do mobilization planning so one can't even go so far as to say that we do it badly. Plans on how we train during mobilization - including rapid-train CTSs - need to be there and they need to include what we do when things go to hell in a hand basket. To me those are contingencies that have to exist. Network and system denial is a very real thing.