Army Reserve Restructuring

[daftandbarmy]

We have to change the mindset of society.

We have to engage society and convince them that defence of their country and family is an honourable vocation and that each and every member can contribute to the effort.

And if that means that you have to put up with some well meaning old duffers then so be it.

Obviously hiring 5000 rifles to head out of country occasionally isn't getting the job done.

Compulsion will not endear anyone to military service, of any kind.

Good marketing, advertising and recruiting to attract people willingly to a well led and equipped force structure? Much better...

 

[Kirkhill]

Compulsion will not endear anyone to military service, of any kind.

Good marketing, advertising and recruiting to attract people willingly to a well led and equipped force structure? Much better...

Abso-ruddy-lutely.

Engaging people where they are is always the plan. There is no other.
Even the Danes, with their universal conscription, more like universal registration, is still asking for, and receiving, volunteers.

As Colin said about the Cadets, we have to be able to stop apologizing for teaching the kids how to soldier. Their parents are probably a lost cause so we have to create a point of attraction that they want to engage.

Likewise for the adults.


We graduate something like 400,000 kids a year.
There are about 5,000,000 men and women in the 20 to 30 bracket.
And I don't care if they are all obese, wheezing, chairbound anime addicts, they can all watch a screen and twiddle a knob. They can all contribute some how.
And even if you can only attract 10% of them you wll be getting 40,000 recruits a year and standing force of 500,000.


I am so tired of been told it is not possible.

It has to be possible or else you can all just fold your tents and wait for the inevitable.

....

Old Geezer, Out.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I did signage in Farsi and Mandarin which is the two predominate ethnic groups in my recruitment area and I have two Farsi speaking officers which we used to good effect at a recruiting booth both for Navy League and Sea Cadets. Both groups have a somewhat negative view of military service from their homeland, that is a hurdle that you must overcome. The Air Cadets seem to have really hit the mark as most seem to be doing very well, both in recruiting numbers and parental support.

 

[Kirkhill]

PS

Just wasted last night gathering some obscure stats and came to the conclusion that Canada already has a security force of about 600,000. And the Forces, the Regs, the Regular Army, the Deployable Regular Army that DAGs Green, is a distinct minority. Roughly on par with the number of armed CBSA and CSC officers.

Regs are 65,000
Army Res are 20,000
Other Res are 10,000
Rangers are 5,000

100,000 in Green.

Police are 75,000
Other LEOs are at least 15,000
Watch Volunteers are 5,000
Private Security Guards are 160,000

235,000 engaged in Security

Firefighters - Full Time are 35,000
Firefighters - Part Time are 90.000

125,000 engaged in Firefighting, and I have no knowledge if that includes civilian contractors like operators of water-bombers

EMS - 40,000
St John - 25,000
Red Cross - 30,000

95,000 First Aid and beyond

SAR Volunteers - 20,000

At that point I am up to 580,000 Canadians actively engaged in securing the country and actively preparing for emergencies.

And I know that that undercounts the size of the force by a lot.

.....

Where is the central organizing principle?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Where is the central organizing principle?

Well, we just cut the Army into two silos so I’ll assume that’s no longer a corporate policy

 

[GR66]

It only took them a year and half to make me a CI, I am to old to be a CIC. I think they have improved their processing times somewhat. There has been an effort to move Cadets away from the military connection. I think that this has to stop. After the first year in Cadets, they should be asked if they have an interest in going to a military trade, at which point those Cadets are flagged for opportunities that allow them to do stuff with the military. The rest can continue down the usual Cadet career progression. I used to have Cadets supplementing my gun crew, most of those Cadets joined the Reserves and some went Reg force.
Getting a 18 year kid that can run a marchpast, some experience commanding people, knows how to teach lessons. Understands how to treat subordinates, if they are ex-Army Cadets, already have some experience in fieldcraft and winter exercise and most Cadets are exposed to the principles of marksmanship. That reduces your your training requirements, improve retention and creates a pool of junior leaders.

My time in Cadets was when there was still a more military focus and some of us older Cadets joined the occasional Reserve exercise.

My understanding was that the reason the Cadets were moving away from the more military elements of their training/culture was to avoid the accusation that we were training "Child Soldiers".

What if we implement something like Junior Rangers but for Reserve units. Cadets age 16 or older that are interested in the more military side of things could sign up (with parental consent) as "Junior Reservists". They could join their parent unit for some classes, range days, exercises, etc. At age 18 they could join then choose to join the CAF either as a Reservist or Reg Force with possible extra consideration for acceptance with a positive sign-off from their parent Reserve unit.

 

[foresterab]

PS

Just wasted last night gathering some obscure stats and came to the conclusion that Canada already has a security force of about 600,000. And the Forces, the Regs, the Regular Army, the Deployable Regular Army that DAGs Green, is a distinct minority. Roughly on par with the number of armed CBSA and CSC officers.

Regs are 65,000
Army Res are 20,000
Other Res are 10,000
Rangers are 5,000

100,000 in Green.

Police are 75,000
Other LEOs are at least 15,000
Watch Volunteers are 5,000
Private Security Guards are 160,000

235,000 engaged in Security

Firefighters - Full Time are 35,000
Firefighters - Part Time are 90.000

125,000 engaged in Firefighting, and I have no knowledge if that includes civilian contractors like operators of water-bombers

EMS - 40,000
St John - 25,000
Red Cross - 30,000

95,000 First Aid and beyond

SAR Volunteers - 20,000

At that point I am up to 580,000 Canadians actively engaged in securing the country and actively preparing for emergencies.

And I know that that undercounts the size of the force by a lot.

.....

Where is the central organizing principle?

I am guessing your fire fighter numbers are based upon structural fire fighting organizations only. Within the wildland world many are dual hatted with other duties which may range from Conservation Officers (NWT, Manitoba) to fire specific roles (BC or some AB). Water bombers are again a mix of contractor and provincial ownership and I assume they are not counted just like I see no reference to rotary wing assets.

That said it's a hodgepodge of Federal, Provincial and Municipal services and response so until roles and responsibilities get streamlined though a state of emergency or war declaration I don't see any one organization who should be in charge.

All that said...some interesting numbers there and worth a mental ponder on how to do better,
foresterab

 

[Kirkhill]

I am guessing your fire fighter numbers are based upon structural fire fighting organizations only. Within the wildland world many are dual hatted with other duties which may range from Conservation Officers (NWT, Manitoba) to fire specific roles (BC or some AB). Water bombers are again a mix of contractor and provincial ownership and I assume they are not counted just like I see no reference to rotary wing assets.

That said it's a hodgepodge of Federal, Provincial and Municipal services and response so until roles and responsibilities get streamlined though a state of emergency or war declaration I don't see any one organization who should be in charge.

All that said...some interesting numbers there and worth a mental ponder on how to do better,
foresterab

Don't you think it would be better to figure out who takes over when the balloon goes up before hand rather than waiting 'til "come the day"?
At least one sheet with one inventory of capabilities and responsible parties that can be called upon.

 

[Kirkhill]

Well, we just cut the Army into two silos so I’ll assume that’s no longer a corporate policy

I apologize. I took the opportunity to suck back and reload. To be absolutely clear: I am apologizing for the tone and the negligent discharge that caught you.

Cheers.

I stand by the content.

 

[foresterab]

Was looking into some parts of this as even the authorities to respond an emergency vary by province.

BC - A person may be conscripted to fight a forest fire under the BC Wildfire Act
AB - used to be part of the Forest Prairie Protection Act. I see in the 1972 version (Section 23) but not the 2000 version.

Other jurisdictions have had/used similar powers in the past - YK, NWT, ON

So if the powers are not a municipal level, and varied by the provincial....what is required to activate the Federal powers? I've never delved into that side of things mostly because I'm closer to the shovel pusher than 4-star general in charge...but it appears this is the legislation:

Canada’s Emergencies Act - Canada.ca

Canada’s Emergencies Act

www.canada.ca

It's a heck of a challenge though to understand what local capacity might be available to support (local knowledge is priceless) while dealing with a populace that is most affected. So like the CAF you need distributed knowledge of the generic principals - ICS in the case of disaster response - while you try to mobilize additional support form unaffected areas. Unfortunately it's not even as simple as take Toronto Police force and send them to a Vancouver earthquake as you have to still address Toronto manpower needs and only a portion of Toronto can go....which means your roster numbers need to be much larger than your deployment force.

It's a heck of a legal, and jurisdictional mess. Thankfully it's not the job of the CAF to resolve all Canadian emergencies but to @Kirhill point above somehow it needs to get sorted out.

 

[Kirkhill]

Was looking into some parts of this as even the authorities to respond an emergency vary by province.

BC - A person may be conscripted to fight a forest fire under the BC Wildfire Act
AB - used to be part of the Forest Prairie Protection Act. I see in the 1972 version (Section 23) but not the 2000 version.

Other jurisdictions have had/used similar powers in the past - YK, NWT, ON

So if the powers are not a municipal level, and varied by the provincial....what is required to activate the Federal powers? I've never delved into that side of things mostly because I'm closer to the shovel pusher than 4-star general in charge...but it appears this is the legislation:

Canada’s Emergencies Act - Canada.ca

Canada’s Emergencies Act

www.canada.ca

It's a heck of a challenge though to understand what local capacity might be available to support (local knowledge is priceless) while dealing with a populace that is most affected. So like the CAF you need distributed knowledge of the generic principals - ICS in the case of disaster response - while you try to mobilize additional support form unaffected areas. Unfortunately it's not even as simple as take Toronto Police force and send them to a Vancouver earthquake as you have to still address Toronto manpower needs and only a portion of Toronto can go....which means your roster numbers need to be much larger than your deployment force.

It's a heck of a legal, and jurisdictional mess. Thankfully it's not the job of the CAF to resolve all Canadian emergencies but to @Kirhill point above somehow it needs to get sorted out.

When I came out west in 1980 I was warned that I could be enlisted to fight fires if I ran into one on the highway. That was anywhere from Ontario to Alberta.

 

[Kirkhill]

My time in Cadets was when there was still a more military focus and some of us older Cadets joined the occasional Reserve exercise.

My understanding was that the reason the Cadets were moving away from the more military elements of their training/culture was to avoid the accusation that we were training "Child Soldiers".

What if we implement something like Junior Rangers but for Reserve units. Cadets age 16 or older that are interested in the more military side of things could sign up (with parental consent) as "Junior Reservists". They could join their parent unit for some classes, range days, exercises, etc. At age 18 they could join then choose to join the CAF either as a Reservist or Reg Force with possible extra consideration for acceptance with a positive sign-off from their parent Reserve unit.

That falls in line with other trends.

Virtually everything in life is being delayed. Some folk will tell you that 28 is the new 18.

Going backwards, I completed High School at 18. My parents completed High School at 15. At 15 1/2 Dad could have had his parents sign him up as a Boy Seaman or an Apprentice.

Boy seaman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Younger kids could sign up for training and be deployed when they grew older.

23 is the new 13?

 

[daftandbarmy]

When I came out west in 1980 I was warned that I could be enlisted to fight fires if I ran into one on the highway. That was anywhere from Ontario to Alberta.

Doesn't happen anymore... not after all the injury claims

 

[Kirkhill]

Doesn't happen anymore... not after all the injury claims

Phew! I might hurt myself.

 

[Eaglelord17]

My time in Cadets was when there was still a more military focus and some of us older Cadets joined the occasional Reserve exercise.

My understanding was that the reason the Cadets were moving away from the more military elements of their training/culture was to avoid the accusation that we were training "Child Soldiers".

What if we implement something like Junior Rangers but for Reserve units. Cadets age 16 or older that are interested in the more military side of things could sign up (with parental consent) as "Junior Reservists". They could join their parent unit for some classes, range days, exercises, etc. At age 18 they could join then choose to join the CAF either as a Reservist or Reg Force with possible extra consideration for acceptance with a positive sign-off from their parent Reserve unit.

Alternatively why do we keep Cadets until they are 18? Why not end the program when they turn 16 and have them branch into the Reserves if they wish to keep going?

Basically keep it as it is for younger cadets (basically a bit more military-esque ‘scouts’) but at 16 they can choose to get out or join up.

If the point is to create a recruitment stream this would be more practical than having the Reserves competing with Cadets for troops.

 

[ueo]

And then you get HCols like this, with no military experience themselves apart from the honorary role


Cadets should be mandatory for young Canadian newcomers, says former honorary colonel

'We have to get to a point where you have to serve the nation somehow, somewhere, sometime during your life'

Canada should make it mandatory for young newcomers to join the cadet corps to learn more about this country’s history and values, says the former honorary colonel of the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry.

“We have to get to a point where you have to serve the nation somehow, somewhere, sometime during your life,” said Donald Cranston, a senior investment counsellor with Fiera Capital, who just stepped down last week from the honorary military appointment.

Canada gained more than 483,000 permanent immigrants in 2024, the highest number this country has seen since 1972. Cranston believes that if the people in that group between the ages of 12 and 18 joined Cadets Canada, a youth program that’s a partnership between the Department of National Defence and civilian organizations, it could help them find their feet here.

Joining the cadets would help newcomers with “better inclusion into society,” Cranston said.

“I’m a big believer in multi-ethnicity; I’m not a big believer in multiculturalism because this is why we have such divides in our society,” he said.

Cadets would serve as “an integrator” for young newcomers, Cranston said. “We’re more alike than we are different, but people focus on the differences all the time.”

Cadets would also provide young newcomers with a structured environment and leadership opportunities, he said.

“You’d get some push-back for sure,” Cranston said, noting most of that would come from “the left peaceniks that are out there.”

Cadets should be mandatory for young Canadian newcomers, says former honorary colonel

How Canada Wins: 'We have to get to a point where you have to serve the nation somehow, somewhere, sometime,' says former honorary colonel

nationalpost.com

Long time ago he says, cadets were an integral part of high school. Most were staffed with WWII vets and were compulsory. Why not now?

 

[Furniture]

Alternatively why do we keep Cadets until they are 18? Why not end the program when they turn 16 and have them branch into the Reserves if they wish to keep going?

Basically keep it as it is for younger cadets (basically a bit more military-esque ‘scouts’) but at 16 they can choose to get out or join up.

If the point is to create a recruitment stream this would be more practical than having the Reserves competing with Cadets for troops.

A few problems:

1. Cadets offers a chance to be military adjacent, without being military for kids whose parents wouldn't allow them to sign-up for the reserves. You'd likely sour quite a few if at 16, two years before being able to make their own choices, you cut them loose and said "too bad, sign-up when you're old enough".

2. Cadets corps exist in places without a convenient reserve unit. You'd sour those kids against the military by cutting them loose years before they can join.

3. Most of the programs that draw people into the Cadets programme are only available when you're 16+. Things like international exchanges, power pilot, etc...