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Aug 2011: Marines Implicated in Suicide of Harry Lew in AFG

The Bread Guy

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Makes sense that the LCpls get something, but there's nothing here about the Sgt getting any "process attention" from the system.
.... Lance Cpl. Harry Lew, 21, killed himself with a two- or three-round burst from an M249 Squad Automatic Weapon early April 3, according to a Marine Corps investigation. He was hazed that night by two other lance corporals in 2nd Battalion, 3rd Marines, out of Marine Corps Base Hawaii, who were angry he had fallen asleep several times while manning a guard post, the report said.

“May hate me now, but in the long run this was the right choice I’m sorry my mom deserves the truth,” a message found on Lew’s arm said.

The report outlines an incident at Patrol Base Gowragi, in Nawa district, that escalated over several hours. It began with Lew not responding to calls on his radio about 11:15 p.m. on April 2. A sergeant found him sleeping in a fighting hole, and told other lance corporals that “peers should correct peers,” without providing specific instruction, the report said.

Two other lance corporals, whose names are redacted from the report, pulled Lew from the fighting hole by his helmet at about 11:30 p.m. and berated him for falling asleep, the report said. Over the next four hours, they berated him repeatedly and ordered him to do pushups, crunches and other exercises while he was wearing his body armor, according to the investigation ....
Marine Corps Times, 23 Aug 11

Re:  the highlighted part, isn't it up to superiors who find mistakes to correct subordinates?  Comes back to the barrack room justice thread....
 
What's really scary are some of the comments on the Marine Corps Times article that are saying Cpl Lew deserved the treatment he got and even worse, say his death was a good thing.  You really have to wonder what goes on in the minds of people who think this way. 
 
I don't agree with what happened or why, if the press reviews are accurate. Big 'if'. There are also plenty of 'what ifs' here to go around and more than enough of them, along with a lack of concrete evidence so far, that people shouldn't be speculating on who was right or wrong.

Let's not lose perspective though. Falling asleep on sentry duty, in a war zone, places the life of everyone in the unit at great risk of death. In war time in the United States, if a sentry falls asleep on duty, he may face the death penalty under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Many other countries and militaries have had similar penalties going all the way back to the Roman Legion. Britian has executed people for such.


Entrusting your very life to someone and finding that person has let you down can raise some very strong passions in people.
 
recceguy said:
Entrusting your very life to someone and finding that person has let you down can raise some very strong passions in people.
Which would be why the senior NCO should have been taking care of it, not (if reported accurately) suggesting the other LCpls might deal with it.
 
milnews.ca said:
Which would be why the senior NCO should have been taking care of it, not (if reported accurately) suggesting the other LCpls might deal with it.

I'm not making any judgements right now. Caveats or not, I can wait on this.
 
recceguy said:
I'm not making any judgements right now. Caveats or not, I can wait on this.
That's more than fair, too, given the caveat re:  is everything there?  Also no denying the EPIC fail on the part of the dude caught sleeping.  I like to hope Marine Corps Times is better than most, but one can never tell.
 
The culture of the Corps can be brutal.

I doubt the attitude towards falling asleep on sentry has changed much since I was in, but from the sounds of the quotation I would agree there's a whole lot of "IF's" here.

Like a lot of things....you almost had to be there to know what was behind everything and what actually happened.....
 
Can those that are more familiar than I am explain how he could have shot himself with an M249 SAW? Having a hard time bending my mind around how he would need to contort himself to achieve his ultimate goal.
 
Not that hard really, especially if he had the para version - put it on its butt, point barrell at target of choice, pull the trigger with a toe.  Job done.

MM
 
cupper said:
Can those that are more familiar than I am explain how he could have shot himself with an M249 SAW? Having a hard time bending my mind around how he would need to contort himself to achieve his ultimate goal.

Think Kurt Cobain with the shot gun as MM said.
 
OK, so the distance from barrel muzzle to trigger isn't as much as I thought.
 
medicineman said:
SAW=C9...thinking M246/C6 perhaps?

Quite possibly, I got out just as the new family of weapons was coming in, so basically I was only exposed to the "new" C-7's
 
recceguy said:
Entrusting your very life to someone and finding that person has let you down can raise some very strong passions in people.

I agree that we dont know all the specifics of the case, but punishment should never be left to peers.  Its the SNCO's job to sort out the cause of the problem and take action so it does not happen again.       


 
Greymatters said:
I agree that we dont know all the specifics of the case, but punishment should never be left to peers.  Its the SNCO's job to sort out the cause of the problem and take action so it does not happen again.     

No one disagrees with that. Never did.

Right now we have a second (third) hand account from the MSM on what happened. I'll wait for the official report into what happened before I decide who fell down on the job.
 
recceguy said:
Right now we have a second (third) hand account from the MSM on what happened. I'll wait for the official report into what happened before I decide who fell down on the job.
.... with who's getting charged with what changing based on media coverage - this from the unit's hometown media outlet:
.... Military investigators say 21-year-old Lance Corporal Harry Lew of California killed himself in April right after being hazed by three other Marines based out of Marine Corps Base Hawaii in Kaneohe.

Investigators say the suspects were angry because Lew fell asleep repeatedly on the job.

The accused are:
    Lance Cpl. Jacob D. Jacoby, 21, is accused of kicking Lew in the back and head, and striking him on the helmet with a closed fist.
    Sgt. Benjamin E. Johns, 26, is accused of willfully failing to supervise and ensure the welfare of a Marine under his care.
    Lance Cpl. Carlos Orozco III, 22, is accused of stomping on Lew's back with his boot, kicking him in the head, ordering him to do pushups, side planks, leg lifts with a sand bag, while wearing full personal protective equipment and pouring sand onto his face ....
All presumed innocent until proven guilty, but it will be interesting to see the official results.

New info, so I'm asking the mods to change the headline/thread title - thanks!
 
I recall taking over from a unit (which shall remain nameless) that had their troops doing sentry duty for up to 3 hours, on their own, at night without relief. We regarded this as absurd and indicative of poor senior leadership, of course, and changed this policy immediately on take over.

I wonder to what extent poor leadership (as above) was an issue in this, and other similar, cases?
 
daftandbarmy said:
I recall taking over from a unit (which shall remain nameless) that had their troops doing sentry duty for up to 3 hours, on their own, at night without relief. We regarded this as absurd and indicative of poor senior leadership, of course, and changed this policy immediately on take over.

I wonder to what extent poor leadership (as above) was an issue in this, and other similar, cases?

Absurd? Really? 3 hours? Man I wish I could have shut 'er down and only did 3 hour shifts. I sincerely hope I just missed some sarcasm in your post because 3 hours is not a hard shift. Heck when our COP had less man power we were doing up to 8 hour shifts on the towers. If you're not mature and disciplined enough to handle at MINIMUM 3 hours in a tower without constant supervision, then I am *VERY* glad I did not serve alongside you.
 
Sythen said:
Absurd? Really? 3 hours? Man I wish I could have shut 'er down and only did 3 hour shifts. I sincerely hope I just missed some sarcasm in your post because 3 hours is not a hard shift. Heck when our COP had less man power we were doing up to 8 hour shifts on the towers. If you're not mature and disciplined enough to handle at MINIMUM 3 hours in a tower without constant supervision, then I am *VERY* glad I did not serve alongside you.

I rest my case!  ;D
 
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