Base closures?

[DCRabbit]

What mechanism of public interaction would we hope to gain from by spreading units through more major cities?  Is such a suggestion really about capitalizing on the value of random encounters between civilians and uniformed service personnel at the grocery store?

  It shows military personnel as human and part of the community rather than just numbers stationed god knows where in yet another gov't dept that vast amounts of money is spent on. In an increasingly urban population that the CF will need to recruit from, it pays to generate familiarity in urban centers.. and offer urban recruits job opportunities close to urban centers.

 

[McG]

  It shows military personnel as human and part of the community rather than just numbers stationed god knows where in yet another gov't dept that vast amounts of money is spent on. In an increasingly urban population that the CF will need to recruit from, it pays to generate familiarity in urban centers.. and offer urban recruits job opportunities close to urban centers.

Is the corollary of your theory that the absence of a permanent Regular Force presence in a major Canadian city will result in that city's population dissociating us and eventually opposing our existence?  Do you believe there is really a tangible PR benefit from the random cereal isle encounters in Toronto where the majority of the population is likely still oblivious to our presence there?

 

[aesop081]

But, back circa 1941, when

I dont beleive that the argument was that we should connect with people from 1941.

4.  None of this really has anything to do with "connecting with the nation".

Indeed. I never bought into that argument anyways. I just wanted to be a pain in the ass after you said SD was the only top 10 city with a major military presence. >

 

[Journeyman]

1.  Navies have no choice but to have bases in large coastal cities;

Scandalous; forgetting the HQ of the Quebec National Navy on the coast of the St Lawrence River.


I figure if CDN Aviator can be a pain.....  ;D

 

[Griffon]

  It shows military personnel as human and part of the community rather than just numbers stationed god knows where in yet another gov't dept that vast amounts of money is spent on. In an increasingly urban population that the CF will need to recruit from, it pays to generate familiarity in urban centers.. and offer urban recruits job opportunities close to urban centers.

There is actually quite a bit of truth in this.  One of the major complaints that I hear on this base (Cold Lake) is how isolated it is from a large urban center.  It could be much more attractive to prospective recruits if there were more urban locations that they could be posted to, and more importantly I would be willing to bet there would be less of an issue of retention as there are many members who decide to leave after their Basic Engagement because they have problems with being at a location isolated from the larger urban centers in Canada.

 

[aesop081]

I would be willing to bet there would be less of an issue of retention as there are many members who decide to leave after their Basic Engagement because they have problems with being at a location isolated from the larger urban centers in Canada.

I was posted to Edmonton early after the base became an army one. What transpired was the exact oposite of what you describe. In my regiment, 95% of the privates we had released at the end of their first BE because they could easily get jobs on civvy street.

 

[AIC_2K5]

Do you believe there is really a tangible PR benefit from the random cereal isle encounters in Toronto where the majority of the population is likely still oblivious to our presence there?

On principle, probably not. I do still believe communities with nearby military bases have a greater connection with those units and, by extension, the CF as a whole.

And then what about looking at the issue from a personnel welfare point of view? While there are many members who enjoy living in rural areas, many prefer living near urban cities. And I would say this number is growing based on the demographics shift in Canadian population, which we recruit from.

I was posted to Edmonton early after the base became an army one. What transpired was the exact oposite of what you describe. In my regiment, 95% of the privates we had released at the end of their first BE because they could easily get jobs on civvy street.

Interesting. Though I would tend to think this reasoning would be more the exception rather than the norm.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is actually quite a bit of truth in this.  One of the major complaints that I hear on this base (Cold Lake) is how isolated it is from a large urban center.  It could be much more attractive to prospective recruits if there were more urban locations that they could be posted to, and more importantly I would be willing to bet there would be less of an issue of retention as there are many members who decide to leave after their Basic Engagement because they have problems with being at a location isolated from the larger urban centers in Canada.

You know I agree whole heatedly with you on this one. After spending 15 months in a relatively close environment with a) NSE FP (Full of PRES folks from the Tor Bdg) and b) Oodles of young (and some old ) folk posted to Petawawa who made up the meat of the NSE I found the following 2 statements very interesting, and this is from the horses mouth:

When one would ask one of the fine NSE FP Ptn folks why they don't join the regular force the over whelming answer was as follows:
What and be posted to Pet or Gagetown ? These kids, while fine soldiers, have no interest in moving from a major center like Toronto where these is culture and life outside the military to a place like Pet or Gagetown. I'm sure both places have there merits but they don't have allot to offer the now modern demographic that we have become, i.e. the move from rural to urban centers.

When I would ask one of the Pet people why they hated Pet so much and why they were going to release upon return the over whelming answer I got was a follows:
They 100% answered that Pet had nothing offer them in the way of work for the spouses or things to do after hours, unless you want to hunt, fish or go 4-wheeling. I found this to be the same for my self as well while I was in Pet doing work up training.

I took the opportunity to look around Pet and Pembroke to see if my better half and I would like it here. What I found was very disheartening. My wife is a Master Degree educated lady who has a very good job that I would not ask her to leave. Not to work the drive thru at McDonald's anyways.

I think this is something the CF will have to come to grips with  as time moves on. The vast majority of Canadians are now born and raised in urban centers, to one degree or another, and this will play havoc with retention issues as members will simply be unwilling to resign or sign at all when forced with staying in what I would consider isolated posting. 

 

[Halifax Tar]

And then what about looking at the issue from a personnel welfare point of view? While there are many members who enjoy living in rural areas, many prefer living near urban cities. And I would say this number is growing based on the demographics shift in Canadian population, which we recruit from.

I think I pretty much echoed you Bubbles!

 

[aesop081]

Interesting. Though I would tend to think this reasoning would be more the exception rather than the norm.

Simply making an observation. Norm or exception, i cannot say.

 

[dimsum]

Further to the urban v. rural split, if the CF plans on recruiting more members from visible minorities, this issue will become even more important.  Try explaining the benefits of being posted to, say Comox, to a second-generation Chinese-Canadian from a big city...that was me a few years ago, and my family was convinced I moved to the moon. 

I was lucky that I lived in Victoria for a few years so I knew Comox would be an awesome place, even if I had to do trips to Victoria or Vancouver to get back in touch with real city life. 

 

[PuckChaser]

CDA could move its offices off the penisula (to base proper) in order to free-up buildings already at the campus.

If you're going to build new buildings for them.... sure. There's no space up top right now.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Accepting, as I do, the morale advantages to urban postings, and even accepting, just for the sake of argument, the "community connectedness" point, but noting some of the very real constraints Infanteer added, then my question is: how much is it worth to have too many bases and stations? Should we sacrifice nships or tanks or fighter or transport aircraft and x people to have some more of our folks posted to or near major urban centres? At any given time the defence budget is finite, so it is a "zero sum game." If we want to spend more on people and equipment than we need to spend less on e.g. infrastructure and administration. Generally, consolidation is seen as a good way to free up infrastructure and administrative resources. So, which way shall we go?

 

[George Wallace]

I find it interesting that so many are calling for Bases to be closer to urban centers.  It doesn't take too much research to look at all the Bases around the country that have had to be closed down due to the growth of urban centers.  Once upon a time Bases such as those in Calgary, Edmonton, Connaught, Downsview, Kingston, Winnipeg, even Gagetown, were all way out in the boonies.  The former Bases in Calgary have both been swallowed up by urban sprawl.  Both the Air Bases and Army Bases in Winnipeg and Edmonton had at one time also been located well outside of the city limits.  Now one Air Base in the center of Edmonton is a municipal airport and part-time race track, Griesbach is swallowed up, and the city is within a short walk of Namao.  The City of Winnipeg has also surrounded all DND lands in its urban sprawl.  Rifle ranges and Ammo Compounds in Halifax/Dartmouth are now well within the urban center.  Shearwater's airstrips are being encroached upon by urban sprawl.  The Ranges in Connaught are completely surrounded by the City of Ottawa now.

All of these Training Areas have no room for expansion, and as weapons systems change/improve there is no room to expand DANGER TEMPLATES.  (A solution in Halifax in the distant past was not to fire at night so that the locals wouldn't see tracer flying over the highway.....  ;D )  These are serious concerns that require a lot of forethought and consideration as to where the CF establishes its Bases.  There has to be enough 'Manoeuvre Area' to train in and a safe buffer zone for growing Danger Templates for Ranges.  These are not going to be found in or near large urban centers.

 

[dapaterson]

There are many ways to make things work with a dispersed military.  Our current methods of force generation, taking a single unit then grafting on everyone, his brother, sister, dog, and adding new equipment throughout the training cycle, then sending them away for months on pre-deployment training, would not see any significant changes.  Except with the main unit also being sent away to a large training area, the schedules would be rationalized and tightend up - unlike today's pre-deployment training that is too often "Go home at noon and spend time with your family" "But I'm an augmentee - my family is 2000 km away" "Sucks to be you then".

However, the families would be in larger areas with more services available to them.  Better employment opportunities for spouses.  And turning large bases from garrisons with the related support staff into training areas, with minimal resident support (units would bring their own) would improve training and planning - no more "we'll just hop on to the base to get X, Y and Z that we neglected in our plan".

(Note that this speaks to Army training areas and bases; it's not practical for the other two services)

 

[McG]

The new building was started back in 2004-2005 I believe (before CMR opened).  They had significant issues, especially when they discovered archeological (sp) remains while digging, putting the project on hold for a long while.  It takes a LONG time to put up builidngs on the peninsula because it has such a history and it is over-protected.  It drives both the time AND costs up.

It may take time & resources to build on the peninsula, but it is still possible.  Further, there is not necessarily a requirement to build for a few reasons.  As I previously indicated, the RMC campus has occupants that do not necessarily need to be there.  CDA could move up the escarpment to base-propor.  As well, with the plethora of messes in CFB Kingston, one could argue that the SSM is not an essential establishment and could instead be converted to educational purposes.

Further, there are many things on the CMR campus that could move to base-proper in Kingston as opposed to the RMC campus.  The CFSTG detachment, the ILQ residency programme and the CMR PMQ patch would not need to be stuffed into RMC.

CDA could move its offices off the peninsula (to base proper) in order to free-up buildings already at the campus.

If you're going to build new buildings for them.... sure. There's no space up top right now.

If we choose to consolidate onto fewer bases, then new infrastructure is going to be requried.  That is not a surprise.

Accepting, as I do, the morale advantages to urban postings, and even accepting, just for the sake of argument, the "community connectedness" point, but noting some of the very real constraints Infanteer added, then my question is: how much is it worth to have too many bases and stations? Should we sacrifice nships or tanks or fighter or transport aircraft and x people to have some more of our folks posted to or near major urban centres? At any given time the defence budget is finite, so it is a "zero sum game." If we want to spend more on people and equipment than we need to spend less on e.g. infrastructure and administration. Generally, consolidation is seen as a good way to free up infrastructure and administrative resources. So, which way shall we go?

I think the Edmonton model is a good one for the Army.  The brigade (or most of it) is based at the extremities of a metropolitan centre with quick highway access to a huge training area that is not at risk of urban encroachment.  Valcartier is probably another working example that itself is close enough to a major centre for the families but with its own training area.  Petawawa is the unfortunate outlier.

I am not convinced that the urban presence for community relations is a relevant factor and, while the perceived quality of life issues are worth considering, I don't see it being worth our effort moving the 2 CMBG to the edges of Kanata in order to emulate the 1 CMBG dynamic.  In the big scheme, I would not see moving CTC or any of the three brigades, and so ...

Do you believe there is really a tangible PR benefit from the random cereal isle encounters in Toronto where the majority of the population is likely still oblivious to our presence there?

On principle, probably not. I do still believe communities with nearby military bases have a greater connection with those units and, by extension, the CF as a whole.

And then what about looking at the issue from a personnel welfare point of view? While there are many members who enjoy living in rural areas, many prefer living near urban cities. And I would say this number is growing based on the demographics shift in Canadian population, which we recruit from.

Are you arguing that we should de-consolidate rural super-bases into cities, or that we should retain what we have in cities already?

Where people have suggested closing bases, it has been generally those bases at which the average service member will spend very little if any time.  Outside of a year at Staff College, Toronto does not offer many postings to provide an urban lifestyle for service members.  The same is true of St Jean (both CFLRS and CMR).

I suspect E.R. Campbell would move 1 CMBG to a home training base.  There is merit to that, but I think it works well were it is.  I believe that the majority of base consolidations suggested within this thread would not have tangible impacts on either our public engagement nor our aggregate QoL because the majority of the base consolidations suggested involve locations that are sufficiently small in contrast to their local populations and in contrast to the CF population as a whole.

 

[Edward Campbell]

...
I suspect E.R. Campbell would move 1 CMBG to a home training base.  There is merit to that, but I think it works well were it is.  I believe that the majority of base consolidations suggested within this thread would not have tangible impacts on either our public engagement nor our aggregate QoL because the majority of the base consolidations suggested involve locations that are sufficiently small in contrast to their local populations and in contrast to the CF population as a whole.

I would, indeed, in a perfect world. In the one we're in I accept that Edmonton is, indeed, a good enough choice.

Re: Kingston - again, in a perfect world, I would move the Signals School part of Kingston to Gagetown, the Air Force C&E bits to Cold Lake and the SIGNIT and Int School parts to Ottawa (an even more urban place) and free up the Vimy side of the base for an expanded RMC. Perhaps some of the non-undergraduate parts could move to the top of the hill, freeing space in Fort Frederick and on the Barriefield site for undergraduate facilities. Or, alternatively, perhaps the staff colleges could move from Fort Frontenac and Toronto to Vimy Barracks and let RMC expand into Fort Frontenac. Further consolidating Army training in Gagetown would, I think be operationally beneficial to the Army and Signals. Assuming we're not closing Trenton and moving air transport to Edmonton or (better) a new CFB Lloydminster, then the Joint Signal Regiment, and whatever HQ it supports is probably good to stay in Kingston. The new EW Regiment is movable.


Edit: a little more excrement mixing for the Sigs/C&E crowd.  >

 

[McG]

... in a perfect world, I would move the Signals School part of Kingston to Gagetown, the Air Force C&E bits to Cold Lake and the SIGNIT and Int School parts to Ottawa (an even more urban place) ...

I don't think I would split the C&E school along environmental lines.  It is a very technical area in which I suspect all elements have much to gain from a "shared mother ship."  If moved from Kingston, the Peace Support Training centre should follow it.  I would see CFSCE, PSTC and the CFSEME consolidated in a common location (probably one of Borden, Shilo or Gagetown) - this consolidation would reduce CTC HQ's current geographic span of control in Ontario and allow them to takeover PSTC from LFDTS.

... of course, that is assuming we don't just altogether dissolve CTC HQ as a redundant layer of HQ.

 

[PuckChaser]

The new EW Regiment is movable.

That's because there's no infrastructure built for it yet (I'll be a WO by the time the shovel hits dirt). As soon as you start moving TSSA facilities, its going to cost you a lot of money and time in the short term, making it a hard sell. Now, if you built the EW Regt a new building in another base, I'm sure they'd be happy to pack up and go, just to stop feeling like squatters in JSRs perceived control of E30.

Edit: Also, where do you move it? You move it to Pet, and 1+5 CMBG now get into a tiff because they don't have integral tac EW. Same thing if it heads to Edmonton/Valcartier. Its central to everyone and near 1 Can Div HQ right now.

 

[armyvern]

...I'm sure they'd be happy to pack up and go, just to stop feeling like squatters in JSRs perceived control of E30.
...

:rofl:

Sigh ~ where's those ducks when you need them to demo.