Base closures?

[Brasidas]

Edit: Also, where do you move it? You move it to Pet, and 1+5 CMBG now get into a tiff because they don't have integral tac EW. Same thing if it heads to Edmonton/Valcartier. Its central to everyone and near 1 Can Div HQ right now.

Kingston's central to Edmonton and Valcartier?

 

[PuckChaser]

Hour drive to Trenton to throw kit on C17s. We could always create a base in the exact epicenter of Canada to make sure everyone's feathers aren't ruffled. 

 

[George Wallace]

Hour drive to Trenton to throw kit on C17s. We could always create a base in the exact epicenter of Canada to make sure everyone's feathers aren't ruffled. 

Kenora, Ontario!

 

[GAP]

Kingston's central to Edmonton and Valcartier?

close...... ;D

 

[DCRabbit]

Hmm.. also, wouldn't it be prohibitively expensive to clean up a base with a training area that's been in use for a great length of time? If so.. and add in the replacement infrastructure costs elsewhere.. would it still be worth it to close a major base? Would it save money to close Borden rather than consolidating to it?  Would it save money to clean up and close Suffield? Would the CF save more money by closing a major base rather than the properties in the bottom third? Or would it take years and years to see a savings over the cost of closing?

Mod Edit: Cleaned up the excess spaces.

 

[aesop081]

near 1 Can Div HQ right now.

So what ?

 

[AIC_2K5]

Are you arguing that we should de-consolidate rural super-bases into cities, or that we should retain what we have in cities already?

Maintain the status quo. I accept that there are obvious challenges with picking up whole units and building new bases for them closer to urban centres. And I accept that when many of the larger rural army bases were first built, the upper management was primarily concerned about proximity to suitable training grounds. But I don't believe the Army should be moving units from perfectly suitable bases near a city for the sake of access to training areas, such as 2 VP in Winnipeg.

 

[armyvern]

Maintain the status quo. I accept that there are obvious challenges with picking up whole units and building new bases for them closer to urban centres. And I accept that when many of the larger rural army bases were first built, the upper management was primarily concerned about proximity to suitable training grounds. But I don't believe the Army should be moving units from perfectly suitable bases near a city for the sake of access to training areas, such as 2 VP in Winnipeg.

Why is proximity to urban area such a big point for you? You keep bringing it up, but don`t substantiate why you think that being closer to a city is more important for the ARMY than immediate accessibility to a training area where they can practice their primary task of defence & offense -when required- ?

To be, in your words, "perfectly suitable" to the ARMY, immediate access to that oh-so-critical-to-the-Army-thing called a training area should weigh very heavily. 

 

[ArmyRick]

I was thinking of a new idea. On topic base closures but steering in a new direction. What if we added to Campbell's idea. Instead of closing bases, we actually increase bases BUT we add Canadian Coast Guard, RCMP facilities, other federal government buildings that don't require the public to access them.

1. This would consolidate cost across the federal govt (A rresponsibility any govt should take seriously towards joe taxpayer)
2. DND could be the manager of these bases and the facilities but leave those other govt agencies free to do their business (there would have to be serious MoU drafted up)
3. In times of domestic emergencies, it makes security for fed govt facilities much easier if we max out consolidation
4. It could make govt cooperation between agencies much easier (especially for dom ops) if there is some colocation
5. Most bases are open now anyways so security on a day to day basis is not that big an issue

I know some people are ready to rip my idea apart but I would love to hear thoughts, suggestions, comments, etc, etc.

 

[observor 69]

we add Canadian Coast Guard, RCMP facilities, other federal government buildings that don't require the public to access them.
I know some people are ready to rip my idea apart but I would love to hear thoughts, suggestions, comments, etc, etc.

In Cold Lake ....Bagotville ?  On this one of the colder days of the year I get shivers just thinking about it.
BBBrrrrrr !

And ya I have done my time at both places.  :nod:

 

[George Wallace]

Hmm.. also, wouldn't it be prohibitively expensive to clean up a base with a training area that's been in use for a great length of time? If so.. and add in the replacement infrastructure costs elsewhere.. would it still be worth it to close a major base? Would it save money to close Borden rather than consolidating to it?  Would it save money to clean up and close Suffield? Would the CF save more money by closing a major base rather than the properties in the bottom third? Or would it take years and years to see a savings over the cost of closing?

If I remember correctly, when the Canadian Government returned Harvey Barracks in Calgary to the Sarcee Nation, it cost approx one million dollars per square meter to clear the land of explosives down to a depth of six meters or something to that effect.

All our current major Bases, including Borden, have been used for Artillery and Armour Ranges, some dating back over one hundred years.  To clear those Ranges would put the Government into such a huge Deficit that we would never recover.


On another point, the Ranges in Gagetown are considered a 'nuisance' to the populations of St John and Fredericton when Tanks and Artillery are firing.  The same is said in Petawawa, and it is a Rural area.  When Night Illumination is used, the reports of UFOs are rampant.  Would the populations of a larger metropolitan area put up with this?  Most likely not.

 

[observor 69]

On another point, the Ranges in Gagetown are considered a 'nuisance' to the populations of St John Saint John and Fredericton when Tanks and Artillery are firing.  The same is said in Petawawa, and it is a Rural area.

Fixed that for ya. 

 

[George Wallace]

You're a saint.    :nod:

 

[dapaterson]

On another point, the Ranges in Gagetown are considered a 'nuisance' to the populations of St John Saint John and Fredericton when Tanks and Artillery are firing.  The same is said in Petawawa, and it is a Rural area.

Fixed that for ya. 

If we get MLRS, Gagetown can be a nuisance to St John as well.

 

[McG]

Maintain the status quo. I accept that there are obvious challenges with picking up whole units and building new bases for them closer to urban centres. And I accept that when many of the larger rural army bases were first built, the upper management was primarily concerned about proximity to suitable training grounds. But I don't believe the Army should be moving units from perfectly suitable bases near a city for the sake of access to training areas, such as 2 VP in Winnipeg.

Then we have a bit of common ground.  I do not see it worth our while to move any of the Army's brigades with the possible exception of consolidating 1 CMBG probably in Edmonton.

There are several units and non-field formations that could be well served by relocation/consolidation.  As I mentioned in much early posts, relocation needs to be decided upon in conjunction with an examination of our force structure.

I was thinking of a new idea. On topic base closures but steering in a new direction. What if we added to Campbell's idea. Instead of closing bases, we actually increase bases BUT we add Canadian Coast Guard, RCMP facilities, other federal government buildings that don't require the public to access them.

In principle, I see nothing wrong with shared federal facilities and especially not between agencies that operate in concerte.  However, I would not create more bases to do this, and I would not try to squeeze more things into existing congested facilities.  Where there is space and it makes sense, then there should be an arrangement that can be made to work.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Please everyone, get you johns in order: Its St. John's, Saint John and Saint-Jean.

Also, pairing up government facilities is sometimes done in the Military, but rarely practical.

In Montreal, for instance, the new Naval Reserve Unit that the Navy built (or CFB Montreal built for the Navy - paid by the Navy though) is also housing the RCMP and other Federal offices. Its fine because the building is near downtown Montreal. But can you see federal employees from, say, Health and Welfare based in Valcartier, or Petawawa? You'd have the unions on your back faster than you can say free Transpo bus pass.

 

[vonGarvin]

Please everyone, get you johns in order: Its St. John's, Saint John and Saint-Jean.

[tangent] For what it's worth, I noted a gravestone in St-Jean, QC that listed the place of death as "Saint John's, Quebec"
[/tangent]

Consolidation of Federal Goverment departments, or at least some facilities, could work in Gagetown, but as a rule of principle?  I'm not sure.


As a former resident of the area bordering the base near the Enniskillen Ranges, I had not in 3 years heard any firing from the training area, though I did hear a few explosions from time to time.  To be honest, anyone living near CFB Gagetown may complain about the sounds of freedom eminating from the base; however, they pale in comparison to the random shootings by "hunters" in the surrounding area.  At least the Army templates its shooting such that all rounds land within the training area (Geary Speedway notwithstanding) ;D

 

[DCRabbit]

If I remember correctly, when the Canadian Government returned Harvey Barracks in Calgary to the Sarcee Nation, it cost approx one million dollars per square meter to clear the land of explosives down to a depth of six meters or something to that effect.

All our current major Bases, including Borden, have been used for Artillery and Armour Ranges, some dating back over one hundred years.  To clear those Ranges would put the Government into such a huge Deficit that we would never recover.


On another point, the Ranges in Gagetown are considered a 'nuisance' to the populations of St John and Fredericton when Tanks and Artillery are firing.  The same is said in Petawawa, and it is a Rural area.  When Night Illumination is used, the reports of UFOs are rampant.  Would the populations of a larger metropolitan area put up with this?  Most likely not.

  So the only thing that could 'save' Borden would be the astronomical cost of cleaning the site up. The same with any other major base. I think Borden is gonna be axed, myself.

And if the residents around Pet are complaining about the noise.. they're nuts. If there were no base, there would be no town.

 

[ArmyRick]

To close Borden down would be very costly. Where the heck would move all those schools and facilities to? Who is going to do a level 2 clearance of the training area? Borden was once the Armoured and Infantry school so I imagine the UXO threat is notable.

 

[REDinstaller]

I think that closing any base that had a training area attached would be costly. Just a 25M pistol range is quite the headache to remediate.