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Beware starving Canadian Forces

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Beware starving Canadian Forces
By PETER WORTHINGTON  27th April 2009, 2:53am
Article Link

Although there are two years to go before Canadian combat troops are scheduled to be withdrawn from Afghanistan, there are signs the government is cooling on its commitment to expand funding and improve the military.

In the National Post, military historian Jack Granatstein noted that DND budget projections for 2010 and 2011 show a slight decrease from the current $20.993 billion budget.

Last spring, Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Defence Minister Peter MacKay were more gung-ho, promising to raise our regular forces to 75,000 from the present 55,000 effective, and to spend some $30 billion on new aircraft, ships, combat vehicles.

DND's projected budget in 2030 was $30-$35 billion. Some figure this would represent roughly 2% of our GDP going to Defence -- up from the present 1% to 1.5% of GDP.

Granatstein, a military realist, is uneasy that DND's present $20 billion budget "will likely seem to be ripe for the plucking" when the Treasury Board looks for ways to reduce government spending.

"There is little sympathy for the Canadian Forces in the Privy Council Office," he says. He's right. Never has been in that section of the government.

Traditionally, 40% of the DND budget goes to personnel, whose projected numbers keep getting downscaled (now down to 66,000 regulars).

Granatstein also notes that the capital equipment program is not aimed at acquiring new fighter aircraft or warships, but in modernizing and upgrading existing long range patrol aircraft, Leopard II tanks, armoured personnel carriers (APCs), and such.

Sound familiar? It's what we've always done -- keeping equipment, vehicles, aircraft and ships long past their "use before" date. Our equipment is older than most soldiers.

There's also a fishhook embedded in pulling out of Afghanistan.

Put bluntly, it's likely every Canadian fighting vehicle isn't worth bringing home because of the wear and tear of what will be close to nine years in action.

Afghanistan is hard on mechanized vehicles of any sort.

One only has to think back to Canada's peacekeeping days when roughly 50% of our Leopard tanks were out of commission and being repaired at any one time. And they were only used for training in pretend war games.

CASUALTY RATE

Our APCs were originally used by the Americans in the Vietnam War -- and discarded as being too vulnerable. In the Balkans we reinforced them with metal siding and sandbags on the floor. Still, their casualty rate soared.

The Iltus was to be a replacement for the jeep -- and was essentially useless. At the Canadian base in Kabul there was a graveyard of Iltus' stacked in rows. Troops recall we offered them to the Afghan army, which refused unless they were guaranteed a year's supply of gasoline.
More on link
 
How old is this article?  And better yet, why do we allow dinosaurs to write commentary on modern military subjects?  The general population doesn't know any better, and generally takes the media at face value - which means most will read this article, and assume it is factually accurate.

Our "APC" being used in theatre is the LAV 3, not the M113.  Yes, there are M113's in theatre - but not in the front line role that the LAV 3 is.  Has there ever been a Canadian M113 destroyed in Afghanistan to date?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think not.

And commenting on the Iltis?  First of all, he spelt it wrong.  Second of all, he's a couple of years behind the times.

I generally read the paper almost every morning, but lately I can't help but skim it - knowing in the back of my mind they are telling me a small fraction of the story, and usually in a biased manner, at best.
 
CBH99 said:
...........?  And better yet, why do we allow dinosaurs to write commentary on modern military subjects? 

Because youngsters like you are not decorated old vets who have been through Journalism School and the School of hard knocks to get these high paying MSM jobs.  At least he was an officer in the PPCLI fighting in Korea before you were even a gleam in your grandfather's eye, and has some idea of what the military is about; as opposed to people like Stephen Staples, Jack Layton, and Michael Coran.  Perhaps in your youthful exuberance, you may want to write for some national rag while on Tour?  At the very least do some research on the characters you are critiquing.  You may be surprised as to what someone may have done in their past.


As for your APC comments, it may have helped had you read the whole article:

Citing security reasons, DND won't reveal the casualty rate in Leopard II tanks in Afghanistan, or the casualty rate in vehicles. The Canadian American Strategic Review (CASR) has assessed incidents where casualties have occurred in roadside bombs, on the assumption if someone is wounded or killed in a blast, the vehicle is likely irreparably damaged.

Up to February, 2008, there were 22 LAV III "incidents," resulting in 69 wounded/injured and 20 fatalities. Ten incidents with the G-wagon (22 casualties); eight with Bison armoured vehicles (22 casualties); seven involving Nyala armoured personnel vehicles (27 casualties); four Coyote incidents (10 casualties); and assorted other explosions and accidents, including three Leopard tanks down.

I would think that Peter Worthington knows what is being used.  He seems to have done his research.


 
Apparently, Peter Worthington was standing just a few feet from Lee Harvey Oswald when Jack Ruby shot him in Dallas in 1963.
 
George Wallace, you make some good points.  Your right in that he has a lot more experience than me, and has done his research in this particular article.

However, for me anyhow, this article still doesn't stack up.  I read the article on the link, and I don't understand what he is trying to say.  On the one hand, he mentions the M113 being inadequate even for the Balkans, and comments on how the Iltis was 'useless' in Kabul.  Yet in his statistics, he doesn't mention a single incident regarding the M113. 

Why bring up how 'outdated and antiquated' the M113 is, and then not refer to a single incident involving it?  And he mentions that most of our mechanized vehicles are older than the soldiers...the LAV 3, Coyote, Nyala, and Bison are all relatively new - and surely aren't older than the youngest 18yo soldier in theatre?

Maybe I'm just not processing this article the way it was meant to be read.  Maybe there is an underlying tone in the article that I'm just not grasping at the moment.  While I agree with his statement that we do always tend to be playing catch-up in regards to equipment replacement/procurement - he ignores a lot of the progress & purchases that have been made recently.  Again, maybe I'm just not grasping the tone the article was written in.
 
Maybe I'm just not processing this article the way it was meant to be read.  Maybe there is an underlying tone in the article that I'm just not grasping at the moment.

The underlying tone is for those of us who have served through successive governments (conservatives and Liberals) in the past have seen this type of pattern over and over again. This is nothing new, they promise us the sky and end up giving us the finger. This government is no different, especially now with this recession, they are going to find ways to trim the fat and one of the first to be placed on the butchers block will be the defence budget. Its not if it will happen, but when it will happen and believe me it will happen... Always does.

Oh and no to forget the M113 The ones we used in the Balkans were shipped over with us from Germany, 3RCR in 91 (Baden and some from lahr) and I can tell you from driving them they were already very tired and were held together by a hope and a prayer. Our EME's usually had to cannibalize two to keep one running because there wasn't enough spare parts being sent from Germany to keep all of them running. The biggest problems were the "final drives and transmissions" they kept on puking from the heavy use and abuse we put them through, especially on the hills. All this was through the conservative years, the worse was yet to come when the Liberals got in, in 93, then we had to double our order of guntape and 5-50 cord and olive drab paint just to keep what we had from literally falling apart.

The tune may change but the dance steps remain the same. A politician is a politician, most will look you straight in the eye while lying to you and then when your back is turned have a good laugh with their buddies at your expense...
 
Is military readiness a lost cause in Canada?
Sen Colin Kenny
(Printed in The Guardian)
28 Apr 09

There is one overwhelmingly existential argument in favour of governments spending money on military readiness. Unfortunately for Canadians, there are three countervailing arguments that keep ganging up on it and slapping it in handcuffs.

Here's the big argument in favour of military readiness: the primary duty of any national government is to protect its citizens and advance their interests, and no country can do that with its mouth alone. Too bad, but them are just the facts. Countries need muscle - enough muscle to defend, and enough muscle to join with allies to snuff out global threats.

The weaker Canada's defences, the greater the possibility that Canadians will be damaged physically, economically, culturally and socially. History tells us that. Canada and its allies were ill- equipped to go to war against Adolf Hitler in 1939, and his master plan for world domination nearly prevailed as a result.

This is a pretty big, basic argument. It should be enough to ensure adequate funding to the Canadian Forces. But that hasn't been the case for a long time. Why?

Here are the undermining arguments that keep politicians from doing the right thing in maintaining the military personnel and equipment to enable the Canadian Forces to defend us.

- Many Canadians see Canada as the peaceable alternative to our southern neighbours, who always seem to be trying to bash someone, somewhere. That's a good attitude, to a point. We Canadians should be choosy about where we deploy our military. But, when a meaningful mission comes along, we need to be ready. Furthermore, those not fond of the Americans should not be counting on them to defend us and our interests.

- There is very little political payoff for looking into the future and ensuring that our children and grandchildren will have a military capable of defending them. Liberal Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau ordered up 12 frigates for the Canadian Navy, knowing they were essential for Canada's future defence. Conservative Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, Trudeau's successor, got to launch them. Sometimes leadership is about doing the right thing for your country, not just buying votes to keep your party in power.

- The defence budget is a cookie jar that governments raid when they are forced to pare spending. Most federal spending is statutory - the government is legally bound to cough up. Defence spending is discretionary, which is why the Liberals hammered the Canadian Forces so badly during their drive to cut the national debt in the 1990s. Unfortunately, either the Harper government or its successor is going to be faced with trying to find ways to get the country back in the black a few years from now. So there will be plenty of pressure to make the Canadian Forces pay the bill.

These three phenomena swarm the basic, intelligent argument that military readiness is essential to Canada's present, and Canada's future. A number of prominent Canadians have argued lately that Canada is having trouble getting listened to on the world stage these days, including Stephen Harper's former trade and foreign affairs minister, David Emerson.

There are reasons for this, and two of them are that Canada is stingy with both foreign aid and military contributions to solving world problems. Afghanistan is an exception in the latter case, but the head of the Canadian army, Gen. Andrew Leslie, recently testified that the army would probably have to shut down its military assignments after Afghanistan simply to rejuvenate itself. That's twice in six years.

Historian Jack Granatstein recently commended the fact that Canada's military spending has doubled over the last decade, but pointed out that because of past pernury, that's not good enough. He lamented that there is nothing in the pipeline to replace critical naval and air force equipment - stuff like ships and planes that are approaching obsolescence and take many years to plan for, order, and take delivery.

According to Dr. Granatstein "Money is going to be tight, the numbers of personnel will continue to be insufficient to do the required tasks and much of the military's equipment, while better in several areas than a few years ago, will continue its long, slow slide into obsolescence."

In short, things look bleak for the Canadian Forces, which means things look bleak for Canada.

If that bleak outlook is to change, Prime Minister Harper will have to become more of a statesman acting in his country's interests, and less of a politician chasing votes.

And if he can't ignore the votes (and I admit it isn't easy) I have an idea that might win him some. Set up a long-term deal with the Canadian shipbuilding industry to replace all those navy and coast guard ships that are rusting out. That would create jobs on the East Coast, the West Coast, and in Quebec. Jobs mean votes.

In the end, it doesn't really matter whether he does the right thing for noble reasons, or to win votes. Canada has skimped on its military too many times over its history. We've been lucky so far, but luck shouldn't play a big part in planning for a nation's survival.
 
Funny, some people continue to not see the forest for the trees.
Jack was talking about the defence budget forest but the M113 bush obscured the vision... ;-)

Good article by Sen Kenny - thanks MCG; since the anouncement of  contract reviews on the public sector wages I was thinking it is just a matter of time for the CAF to feel the pinch.

cheers,
Frank
 
Sometimes leadership is about doing the right thing for your country,
not just buying votes to keep your party in power.
            ~Sen Colin Kenny


That should be a plaque on every door leading into Parliament.
 
CBH99 said:
  Yet in his statistics, he doesn't mention a single incident regarding the M113. 

Why would he need to. My dad learned to drive them back when they were brand new ( 65-66 ish) and i learned to drive them in 1995......30 years later. Here we are 14 years after my course, still teaching the M113. What else do you need to show you that they are antiquated ?

Why bring up how 'outdated and antiquated' the M113 is, and then not refer to a single incident involving it?

The list of incidents is likely too long. The M113 was as close to a "death trap" as could be in the Balkans, IMHO.

And he mentions that most of our mechanized vehicles are older than the soldiers...the LAV 3, Coyote, Nyala, and Bison are all relatively new - and surely aren't older than the youngest 18yo soldier in theatre?

I left Petawawa in 1997 and the Coyote were already on base by then. That was 12 years ago so they may not be older that our 18 year old soldiers but its pretty darned close.
 
The TLAV is nothing like the M-113 series veh that we all knew and loved.
I had to go back on crse to learn it again in it's new form.

The RG-31 is pretty new.
AHSVS...Cougar MRAP...Buffalo...Leo 2...LAV-3 Upgrade...the list goes on and on...
 
Jammer said:
...Leo 2...
The majority of our Leopard 2 will be the 2A4.  If we are getting originals, then these date back to between 1985 and 1992.  The tanks could date back as far as 1979 if they have been upgraded to the 2A4 standard.  This is not terribly new. 

Jammer said:
The RG-31 is pretty new.  ...Cougar MRAP...
Lets not confuse 'new' as any relevant measure of effective.  The RG-31 is an adequate vehicle for to meet our urgent needs right now and the same can be said of the Cougar JERV.  However, neither vehicle is truly right for the CF in anything beyond the immediate present.  When militaries do not invest in their futures, then they will be forced to accept whatever marginally adequate vehicle is available after stumbling into the need without the right vehicle.

 
MCG said:
.......  When militaries do not invest in their futures, then they will be forced to accept whatever marginally adequate vehicle is available after stumbling into the need without the right vehicle.

So true.  The sad fact is, in a Democracy, it is not the Military who controls the purse strings.  They are controled by the elected Government and their Bureaucrats.  The Military only serve at the whims of the Government, their Bureaucrats and the voting Public.  The 'Silent Majority' are just that; silent.






Depressing.    :-\
 
The RG-31 is pretty new.
AHSVS...Cougar MRAP...Buffalo...Leo 2...LAV-3 Upgrade...the list goes on and on...

Yes but they get old very fast if you have to wait 20 years for new ones. A few new patch welds here and there and a new coat of paint doesn't make something new again.

Even though the maintenance and upkeep on older antiquated equipment is astronomically expensive the government would rather waste millions upon millions patching up derelict equipment rather than buying new.
 
Jammer said:
The TLAV is nothing like the M-113 series veh that we all knew and loved.

You can do whatever you want to a 1970 Ford Pinto........in the end, it is still a 1970 Ford Pinto.
 
Jammer said:
I guess you haven't seen or driven/used one lately?

Nope. Seen them when they were brand spaking new though. Its just like an AIMP'ed Aurora. Looks great, much improved but its still yesterday's airplane.

Anyways i digress.....i'm sure its wonderful and will accept your word for it.
 
CDN Aviator said:
Nope. Seen them when they were brand spaking new though. Its just like an AIMP'ed Aurora. Looks great, much improved but its still yesterday's airplane.

Anyways i digress.....i'm sure its wonderful and will accept your word for it.

So the Arcturus is the samething?    ;D


TLAV = M113

Pinto = Pinto

Arcturus = Aurora

;D
 
George Wallace said:
Arcturus = Aurora

The Arcturus is what happens when you buy an Aurora but leave all the essential mission equipment out of it.

Arcturus = Bus
 
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