BHP replacement project - C22 Pistol megathread

[daftandbarmy]

The issue i see current is with so few trainers, It should be each brigade tracking them, not the units. I've offered to help other units and they have zero idea I am a C22 trainer. Units are not communicating how many trainers they have to pool resources.

As I recall we did something like that once, and all of a sudden our unit was running half the Bde through PWT 1-3...

 

[KevinB]

Oh hod the half cock on the bhp

I knew a PPCLI MCpl in Afghanistan who kept his BHP at Half Cock with the safety on (including times we were supposed to be at C3). Dwayne always figured he knew best - so I just ignored him. But at least he wasn’t trying to carry it in the M9 holsters that had been issued for a while.

Most of the Safariland 6004 holsters for the BHP were designed for condition 3 carry - which was a favorite of the Israeli SOF when they ran BHP’s, you needed to cut a half moon into the thumb safety strap to allow for C1 carry. Non of the stock Military BHP’s had great safeties as there wasn’t a lot of purchase. Unlike FBI HRT, SAS and some other non line unit entities running BHP’s that had larger safeties on them (so they could be reliably slipped off when needed) the Israeli SOF keep the stock safety which always baffled me.

 

[brihard]

I knew a PPCLI MCpl in Afghanistan who kept his BHP at Half Cock with the safety on (including times we were supposed to be at C3). Dwayne always figured he knew best - so I just ignored him. But at least he wasn’t trying to carry it in the M9 holsters that had been issued for a while.

Most of the Safariland 6004 holsters for the BHP were designed for condition 3 carry - which was a favorite of the Israeli SOF when they ran BHP’s, you needed to cut a half moon into the thumb safety strap to allow for C1 carry. Non of the stock Military BHP’s had great safeties as there wasn’t a lot of purchase. Unlike FBI HRT, SAS and some other non line unit entities running BHP’s that had larger safeties on them (so they could be reliably slipped off when needed) the Israeli SOF keep the stock safety which always baffled me.

I always wondered why CAF never upgraded the BHP safeties to be more easily worked.

 

[markppcli]

Another interesting aspect of the C22 rollout was that the Army initially mandated that to teach the C22 you had to be C22 instructor qualified.
You couldn’t simply be qualified on the C22 and an NCO with the small arms course.

This was done specifically to try to improve the pistol skills across the force and serve as a forcing function. The idea of needing a specific instructor qualified on in addition to be qualified on the weapon was not well received from my anecdotal experience.

A certain unit sent two Bdr’s on the training course who didn’t have any instructor qualifications of PLQ, instead of the three ASA quad guys posted in. Allegedly.

 

[KevinB]

A certain unit sent two Bdr’s on the training course who didn’t have any instructor qualifications of PLQ, instead of the three ASA quad guys posted in. Allegedly.

1 RCHA for $1000 Alex

 

[KevinB]

I always wondered why CAF never upgraded the BHP safeties to be more easily worked.

So there was briefly a No2 Mk1* upgrade program on the books. Sights, safety and deactivation of the magazine safety were on the agenda. The problem is if you deactivate the magazine safety the trigger gets very mushy unless the trigger bar is welded up to make up for the pressure/distance removed by the magazine safety plunger (another must have item for BHP’s IMHO).
The dollar value for the upgrades got to be over what was expected a new pistol would cost.

When you start looking at putting $850 of modifications on a then 50 year old pistol, a new pistol sort of sells itself.

Frankly I think weapons techs and mat techs could have done 99% of the work - and the only part really needing to be bought was the Novak Trijicon sights - but I wasn’t the LCMM…

 

[daftandbarmy]

I knew a PPCLI MCpl in Afghanistan who kept his BHP at Half Cock with the safety on (including times we were supposed to be at C3). Dwayne always figured he knew best - so I just ignored him. But at least he wasn’t trying to carry it in the M9 holsters that had been issued for a while.

Those Patricia's are always going off half cocked

 

[Fabius]

I haven't heard of that amendment before you mentioned it, ill have to look it up, if you have a reference off hand could you PM me it?

I will take a look this week once I am in the office.

 

[Fabius]

Most of the Safariland 6004 holsters for the BHP were designed for condition 3 carry - which was a favorite of the Israeli SOF when they ran BHP’s, you needed to cut a half moon into the thumb safety strap to allow for C1 carry.

Ya, I have a 6004 with that half moon cut in it. Wish I could get a BHP now to use with it.

So there was briefly a No2 Mk1* upgrade program on the books. Sights, safety and deactivation of the magazine safety were on the agenda. The problem is if you deactivate the magazine safety the trigger gets very mushy unless the trigger bar is welded up to make up for the pressure/distance removed by the magazine safety plunger (another must have item for BHP’s IMHO).
The dollar value for the upgrades got to be over what was expected a new pistol would cost.

When you start looking at putting $850 of modifications on a then 50 year old pistol, a new pistol sort of sells itself.

Frankly I think weapons techs and mat techs could have done 99% of the work - and the only part really needing to be bought was the Novak Trijicon sights - but I wasn’t the LCMM…

I thought that the Aussie BHP upgrades were okay. I got to use one a bit before they retired them and they incorporated new grips, sights and safeties (I think? It’s been a while). I don’t think they modified the mag safety.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So there was briefly a No2 Mk1* upgrade program on the books. Sights, safety and deactivation of the magazine safety were on the agenda. The problem is if you deactivate the magazine safety the trigger gets very mushy unless the trigger bar is welded up to make up for the pressure/distance removed by the magazine safety plunger (another must have item for BHP’s IMHO).
The dollar value for the upgrades got to be over what was expected a new pistol would cost.

When you start looking at putting $850 of modifications on a then 50 year old pistol, a new pistol sort of sells itself.

Frankly I think weapons techs and mat techs could have done 99% of the work - and the only part really needing to be bought was the Novak Trijicon sights - but I wasn’t the LCMM…

You could have funded the pistol replacement by selling the BHP's into the American market.

 

[brihard]

You could have funded the pistol replacement by selling the BHP's into the American market.

These days you could even charge a modest "doesn't blast your calf and femoral open" premium.

 

[KevinB]

You could have funded the pistol replacement by selling the BHP's into the American market.

Decent shape No2 Mk1* Inglis Brownings go for $700 plus down here. Excellent ones are over 2k, NIW ones - I saw one asking 6,500 for one still in the grease wrapper.

Not sure what the OPStock is like now, but when we were supposed to go to Rwanda with DART, we got issued NIW ones that had the UK-Can-China decal on the front strap.
As soon as you put CLP on it, the decal crumbled
But they where crisp and tight - and shot phenomenally.

No idea where they went when we stood down from that task.

One could have easily funded a pistol program, 5 mags, a weapon mounted light and holster by selling them down here slowly.

I bought one in Ottawa in the early 90’s for $125, took it in a paper bag down to see Barb at the OPS, 9T3534, ironically later in Calgary when I was living in the shacks - the CQ thought it was stolen and called the MP’s. Sure enough it showed up as a missing/stolen pistol in the CAF. But given the CAF never told the RCMP, it had been registered and registered again to me when I bought it. So the CAF didn’t get it back.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

My first issue Browning was a 1944 build, still in the storage bag. I was the first to shoot it, outside the factory. This was 1989.

It was a tight pistol, that shot really well.

 

[Maxman1]

And to think, over the past 40 years, we could have simply bought new Mk 3s from FN at almost any point.

 

[KevinB]

And to think, over the past 40 years, we could have simply bought new Mk 3s from FN at almost any point.

Discontinued in the late 90’s.

All of FN Herstal’s BHP stuff is in boxes in the old factory they were built. (Also beside the FAL tooling).

FN America tried to bring it back for the North American market - but Browning owns the rights (the weird FN Group dynamic) and they only seem to care about shotguns these days.

 

[Haggis]

My first issue Browning was a 1944 build, still in the storage bag. I was the first to shoot it, outside the factory. This was 1989.

It was a tight pistol, that shot really well.

I have a FN BHP built in Montreal in 1947 with the wildly optimistic 350 metre adjustable rear sight. Cosmetically, it's not pretty but it shoots damned good for a 78 year old pistol.

 

[OldSolduer]

My first issue Browning was a 1944 build, still in the storage bag. I was the first to shoot it, outside the factory. This was 1989.

It was a tight pistol, that shot really well.

I shot one in 2009. 100 rounds or there abouts. New mags, pistol was tight and ZERO stoppages.

 

[dapaterson]

Remarkable. When you don't toss half a dozen pistols and a dozen magazines in a milk crate and bounce them around over poor quality roads repeatedly they work better?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Remarkable. When you don't toss half a dozen pistols and a dozen magazines in a milk crate and bounce them around over poor quality roads repeatedly they work better?

Hey.

Those milk crates are carefully stolen from the base kitchen for their under appreciated firearms storage/carriage application…

 

[dapaterson]

Hey.

Those milk crates are carefully stolen from the base kitchen for their under appreciated firearms storage/carriage application…

I think that's the origin story for Seagal in Under Siege - he was angry about all his milk crates being stolen.